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Shammyguy3
07-20-2016, 09:32 AM
Here we go, kicking off #7. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. ????

thenaj17
07-20-2016, 10:04 AM
Klay for me. Has to be over Harden because there are 2 phases of basketball and Harden only plays 1.

Shout for Butler but Klay much more capable of being a number 1 scorer

ManRam
07-20-2016, 10:07 AM
Dray or Harden. I went Dray.

mightybosstone
07-20-2016, 10:09 AM
:horse:

Tony_Starks
07-20-2016, 10:24 AM
Kyrie

FOXHOUND
07-20-2016, 10:34 AM
Klay for his ability to be a huge offensive factor in the flow of the offense while doing a good job of guarding the best players in the world.

valade16
07-20-2016, 10:39 AM
Klay for me. Has to be over Harden because there are 2 phases of basketball and Harden only plays 1.

Shout for Butler but Klay much more capable of being a number 1 scorer

How so? Klay has never been a #1 scorer while Butler has the past 2 years.

Chronz
07-20-2016, 10:51 AM
Klay for me. Has to be over Harden because there are 2 phases of basketball and Harden only plays 1.

Shout for Butler but Klay much more capable of being a number 1 scorer

That assumes both sides are equal but for SG's, offense is most definitely more important. Harden was an MVP candidate 2 years ago, Klay has yet to really have an elite season so I dont agree.

jimm120
07-20-2016, 11:08 AM
I said it last thread and I'll say it again this thread...

If people like wall, Irving, Aldridge, Lowry, and griffin are on this poll, then Carmelo Anthony should be in it too.

He's not someone I'd vote in the top 15 last season, but to have those guys up there and not have Melo is kind of wrong. Irving had a strong finals. Rest of the season was considered a disappointment. Wall had a pretty meh season compared to the previous season. Aldridge did ok. Griffins had a horrible year.

Melo went 22/8/4/1 while stepping up his overall defense and pleading the Knicks in assists. Best rebounding SF in the league too.

I'm not voting for him now, but if we are putting names like the ones mentioned above, then no reason to keep melo out of the poll

LivinLakers
07-20-2016, 12:04 PM
How can Harden not already be on this list. I would take Harden over Chris Paul in a second. Klay is a great complementary player, but Harden is an Alpha and is able to keep a team competitive all by himself. It should def be Harden.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2016, 12:07 PM
Harden should have already gone, but whatevs

SteBO
07-20-2016, 12:27 PM
Harden....grudgingly.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2016, 12:42 PM
Harden....grudgingly.

I ****ing hate Harden but he is a great player

Jets012
07-20-2016, 01:04 PM
Voted Lillard by mistake. Unfortunately, it probably is Harden here.

Harden
Dray
Lillard

That should be the next three in that order arguably. Then Lowry/Blake can come off the board.

SteBO
07-20-2016, 01:09 PM
I ****ing hate Harden but he is a great player
Yeah dude, can't stand his game. But it HAS led his team to a conference final and he's a complete offensive player. Just an eyesore to watch him 90% of the time.....

Chronz
07-20-2016, 01:16 PM
How can Harden not already be on this list. I would take Harden over Chris Paul in a second. Klay is a great complementary player, but Harden is an Alpha and is able to keep a team competitive all by himself. It should def be Harden.

Prolly could've used your vote a few days ago but definitely not before CP3.

Vee-Rex
07-20-2016, 01:26 PM
Went with Harden. No matter how much I might not like his style, can't deny he's a great player.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2016, 01:29 PM
Prolly could've used your vote a few days ago but definitely not before CP3.

your KD sigs are pretty good dude

cmellofan15
07-20-2016, 01:37 PM
3 votes for Klay and 4 votes for Draymond? LMAO I guess I just don't understand how this works since harden is STILL on the board...

Shammyguy3
07-20-2016, 02:19 PM
Paul George going so high really is bad. Davis also went too high. Five me Green and Harden over both of those guys easily.

I vote for Green here as I have the last two threads, but if one of him or Harden don't go in the top 10 that's pretty bad

FlashBolt
07-20-2016, 03:14 PM
Yeah dude, can't stand his game. But it HAS led his team to a conference final and he's a complete offensive player. Just an eyesore to watch him 90% of the time.....

That was last year's James Harden.

FOXHOUND
07-20-2016, 03:40 PM
Prolly could've used your vote a few days ago but definitely not before CP3.

Unrelated to your post, but just wanted to say great job on your sig. :laugh: :burn:

ISIAH_THOMAS
07-20-2016, 03:54 PM
Harden

mightybosstone
07-20-2016, 04:11 PM
That was last year's James Harden.

Remember when Harden, Durant and Westbrook all played for your favorite team? Are you going to be this bitter about all three guys in a year when they're all playing for different, better franchises? ;)

mavwar53
07-20-2016, 04:12 PM
Harden is such a loser in the defensive end and ball dominant flailing player on the offensive end idk how so many people view him as a star. Not in my top 15.

mavwar53
07-20-2016, 04:14 PM
I mean the guy didn't make all NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd and you have him 9, makes sense right?

mightybosstone
07-20-2016, 04:14 PM
Harden is such a loser in the defensive end and ball dominant flailing player on the offensive end idk how so many people view him as a star. Not in my top 15.

Your take is almost as bad as your grammar.

mavwar53
07-20-2016, 04:22 PM
Your take is almost as bad as your grammar.

Yes sir, give me Blake Griffin, Klay, Draymond, Cousins, hell CJ McCollum could probably do what Harden does if Lillard wasn't around.

Saddletramp
07-20-2016, 04:28 PM
Yes sir, give me Blake Griffin, Klay, Draymond, Cousins, hell CJ McCollum could probably do what Harden does if Lillard wasn't around.

Christ Almighty. Of all the dopey things ever said here........

mavwar53
07-20-2016, 04:35 PM
Christ Almighty. Of all the dopey things ever said here........

This coming from the guy that said the Warriors are stupid because of the acquisition of KD because he's a soft loser? Lol.

Well I shouldn't be surprised, you did say Christ Almighty as if that's a thing.

Dade County
07-20-2016, 05:40 PM
I said it last thread and I'll say it again this thread...

If people like wall, Irving, Aldridge, Lowry, and griffin are on this poll, then Carmelo Anthony should be in it too.

He's not someone I'd vote in the top 15 last season, but to have those guys up there and not have Melo is kind of wrong. Irving had a strong finals. Rest of the season was considered a disappointment. Wall had a pretty meh season compared to the previous season. Aldridge did ok. Griffins had a horrible year.

Melo went 22/8/4/1 while stepping up his overall defense and pleading the Knicks in assists. Best rebounding SF in the league too.

I'm not voting for him now, but if we are putting names like the ones mentioned above, then no reason to keep melo out of the poll

True. Melo should be one of the options, also Wade. I would love to see if Bulls fans actually vote for Wade lmao

More-Than-Most
07-20-2016, 06:07 PM
Green/harden should have gone over PG and AD but Id never vote for harden because **** that dude.... Now saying Harden over cp3? please... Just please.

More-Than-Most
07-20-2016, 06:09 PM
Yes sir, give me Blake Griffin, Klay, Draymond, Cousins, hell CJ McCollum could probably do what Harden does if Lillard wasn't around.

Yooooooooooooooo.... And I thought I hated harden lol... Hed still be in my top 10 but man :love:

CHANGO
07-20-2016, 06:17 PM
A dude who can't defend. NAH...

Give me Draymond here, I hate him and he has more talent than any other guy left in the lift (except Klay obv) but his impact on the W's team is undeniable. He is the motor of that squad and he can play both ends of the court.

Saddletramp
07-20-2016, 06:22 PM
This coming from the guy that said the Warriors are stupid because of the acquisition of KD because he's a soft loser? Lol.

Well I shouldn't be surprised, you did say Christ Almighty as if that's a thing.

When did I ever fault GS for getting Durant? Get your facts straight, son. I only said Duramt gave up like a coward.


Just keep those **** posts comin'.

Lakers + Giants
07-20-2016, 06:55 PM
Dray or Harden. I went Dray.

This. I'm cool with either next. But both should be the next two chosen. IDC about the order.

valade16
07-20-2016, 07:29 PM
Dray is very difficult to place because if he were asked to be the #1 guy he'd probably be way lower. Are we saying his impact or his skill set is that good because there is no way he's leading a team the same way the guys being debated with him could.

Shammyguy3
07-20-2016, 08:08 PM
looks like Harden will run away with this; then i bet Draymond gets the 10th slot; but a quick question: is Paul George better than a handful of guys left on that poll (i.e. Cousins, Blake, Butler, Thompson)?

Saddletramp
07-20-2016, 08:29 PM
looks like Harden will run away with this; then i bet Draymond gets the 10th slot; but a quick question: is Paul George better than a handful of guys left on that poll (i.e. Cousins, Blake, Butler, Thompson)?

He just had the most votes for the Harden haters to latch onto. It coulda been Klay or Cousins; it just happened to be George.

Shammyguy3
07-20-2016, 10:32 PM
He just had the most votes for the Harden haters to latch onto. It coulda been Klay or Cousins; it just happened to be George.
I guess that may be true. Personally I'd have George behind all of those players just listed above as well as those already voted for, in addition to Harden and Green, so 14th would be the highest for me

Miltstar
07-20-2016, 11:20 PM
Demar DeRozan

tredigs
07-20-2016, 11:48 PM
Dray is very difficult to place because if he were asked to be the #1 guy he'd probably be way lower. Are we saying his impact or his skill set is that good because there is no way he's leading a team the same way the guys being debated with him could.

He's arguably the most dynamic, best defensive player in the league and hit >38% from three and averaged more APG than Damian Lillard or Lebron James (and 95% of the rest of the league). He has a skill-set that maybe 5 players in NBA history could duplicate. He was top 10 in VORP and RPM the past two seasons for a reason. Draymond Green is a monster, and highly underrated. He missed G5 of the Finals and the Warriors don't have a b2b championship because of that fact. If anything, that's the only reason why he should have been rated below Anthony Davis.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 12:17 AM
He's arguably the most dynamic, best defensive player in the league and hit >38% from three and averaged more APG than Damian Lillard or Lebron James (and 95% of the rest of the league). He has a skill-set that maybe 5 players in NBA history could duplicate. He was top 10 in VORP and RPM the past two seasons for a reason. Draymond Green is a monster, and highly underrated. He missed G5 of the Finals and the Warriors don't have a b2b championship because of that fact. If anything, that's the only reason why he should have been rated below Anthony Davis.

I more so think his point was could draymond be the main guy on any team like a top 10 player should... More so could green carry the rockets like a harden has? Personally I think yes but I think that is what he meant.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 12:19 AM
I am starting to think LA is becomign criminally underrated... I bet he wont go until like 15 plus which is just wow to me.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 12:22 AM
Also... Cousins isnt a top 10 player but just had a year where he averaged 27/12/3 with almost 2 blocks and steals per game and shot 45 percent and 33 from 3... I have no words.

Empty stats/He dont win/Yada yada yada.


How is Harden/PG/AD better than Cousins?

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 01:10 AM
Harden

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 01:11 AM
Demar DeRozan
[emoji43]

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chipurmunki
07-21-2016, 02:09 AM
Dame should be higher than 9. What knuckleheads voted him that low?

mightybosstone
07-21-2016, 05:49 AM
Also... Cousins isnt a top 10 player but just had a year where he averaged 27/12/3 with almost 2 blocks and steals per game and shot 45 percent and 33 from 3... I have no words.

Empty stats/He dont win/Yada yada yada.


How is Harden/PG/AD better than Cousins?So many reasons. Hell, you just gave me two examples. For a big man who is insanely skilled in the low post, his shooting pecentage is criminally low because he still posseses poor shot selection. Hell, why is he even taking 3 pointers when he could be dominating the paint? And not only is he not that efficient offensively, but he's still a subpar defensive player.The question isn't why the guy isn't ranked above those guys; it's why should he be?

mightybosstone
07-21-2016, 05:50 AM
Dame should be higher than 9. What knuckleheads voted him that low?
Based on what? Who in this list is he obviously better than?

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 07:58 AM
So many reasons. Hell, you just gave me two examples. For a big man who is insanely skilled in the low post, his shooting pecentage is criminally low because he still posseses poor shot selection. Hell, why is he even taking 3 pointers when he could be dominating the paint? And not only is he not that efficient offensively, but he's still a subpar defensive player.The question isn't why the guy isn't ranked above those guys; it's why should he be?

AD defense that put him as a top 5 player took several steps back... cousins is a 45 percent shooter.. its not 50 percent but just last year he was basically 47 percent and again how is AD defense any better? PG defense ok but Harden is one of the worst defenders in basketball and much like PG has had plenty of help throughout the years where cousins has not.

AD was a 49 percent shooter this year with medicore defense at best and what has AD won exactly since people like to use empty stats for cousins.... There is no argument for PG over Cousins.,,, PG doesnt have a high FG pct either... You are using defense to knock Cousins but harden again terrible.... Then you are using shooting pct because he is a center which yes should be slightly higher but again PG shooting 41 percent.... we are picking and choosing what fits peoples agendas when it comes to hate on cousins.... in no way/shape or form was AD/pg better last year. If you are going to say PG is allowed to shoot 41 because he isnt a center which again if PG is going to be a top 10 player in all of basketball he needs to be shooting a higher pct in my opinion but if you are going to use that argument based on positions then cousins shouldnt have damn near the same assists per game as PG which he damn near does.

mightybosstone
07-21-2016, 08:27 AM
AD defense that put him as a top 5 player took several steps back... cousins is a 45 percent shooter.. its not 50 percent but just last year he was basically 47 percent and again how is AD defense any better? PG defense ok but Harden is one of the worst defenders in basketball and much like PG has had plenty of help throughout the years where cousins has not.

AD was a 49 percent shooter this year with medicore defense at best and what has AD won exactly since people like to use empty stats for cousins.... There is no argument for PG over Cousins.,,, PG doesnt have a high FG pct either... You are using defense to knock Cousins but harden again terrible.... Then you are using shooting pct because he is a center which yes should be slightly higher but again PG shooting 41 percent.... we are picking and choosing what fits peoples agendas when it comes to hate on cousins.... in no way/shape or form was AD/pg better last year. If you are going to say PG is allowed to shoot 41 because he isnt a center which again if PG is going to be a top 10 player in all of basketball he needs to be shooting a higher pct in my opinion but if you are going to use that argument based on positions then cousins shouldnt have damn near the same assists per game as PG which he damn near does.

Actually I was just posting on my phone at 4:30 in the morning because I got up to take a piss and couldn't go back to sleep. So many more reasons coming shortly...

thenaj17
07-21-2016, 08:37 AM
That assumes both sides are equal but for SG's, offense is most definitely more important. Harden was an MVP candidate 2 years ago, Klay has yet to really have an elite season so I dont agree.

Why is offence more important for SG's? It fully depends on what you are surrounded by in the team. Harden is a complete liability of D and Klay always guards the toughest players until Iggy comes in. Harden is only scoring 7 ppg more than Klay despite increased attempts. Klay is also a much better 3 point shooter. Klay may not have had an elite season yet, but lack of opportunity has played a part in that just like it did for Harden in OKC.

For example, Harden only had a career high PPG at 19 per 36 with OKC and Klay's last 2 are around 25.


How so? Klay has never been a #1 scorer while Butler has the past 2 years.

As i said to Chronz, Klay has been restricted by opportunity to be a number 1. He has had major scoring outbursts whilst Curry is on the bench and if he left Warriors, i genuinely believe he could up his scoring from 21ppg to 28 quite easily.

Butler, who has been a number 1 the past 2 seasons, has a career high of 21ppg and 20ppg per 36. Hardly a true number 1 is he?

latinofire21
07-21-2016, 09:00 AM
So many reasons. Hell, you just gave me two examples. For a big man who is insanely skilled in the low post, his shooting pecentage is criminally low because he still posseses poor shot selection. Hell, why is he even taking 3 pointers when he could be dominating the paint? And not only is he not that efficient offensively, but he's still a subpar defensive player.The question isn't why the guy isn't ranked above those guys; it's why should he be?

Sounds like the same argument can be made for harden. He's a chucker he just doesn't have as low a percentage cuz the refs bail him out

WaDe03
07-21-2016, 11:29 AM
I said it last thread and I'll say it again this thread...

If people like wall, Irving, Aldridge, Lowry, and griffin are on this poll, then Carmelo Anthony should be in it too.

He's not someone I'd vote in the top 15 last season, but to have those guys up there and not have Melo is kind of wrong. Irving had a strong finals. Rest of the season was considered a disappointment. Wall had a pretty meh season compared to the previous season. Aldridge did ok. Griffins had a horrible year.

Melo went 22/8/4/1 while stepping up his overall defense and pleading the Knicks in assists. Best rebounding SF in the league too.

I'm not voting for him now, but if we are putting names like the ones mentioned above, then no reason to keep melo out of the poll

And Wade.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 12:36 PM
Why is offence more important for SG's?
Because you can manipulate the game to a higher degree offensively than you ever could defensively. Its easier to hide a defensive liability than an offensive one. Just think of it this way, Bruce Bowen was a monster defensively, yet he would NEVER be in contention for MVP the way Harden has, you think anyone would be dumb enough to take Lindsey Hunter over Steve Nash?

For bigmen it gets alot more important but even then I wouldn't say its half the game.


It fully depends on what you are surrounded by in the team.
It really doesnt.


Harden is a complete liability of D and Klay always guards the toughest players until Iggy comes in. Harden is only scoring 7 ppg more than Klay despite increased attempts.
Not sure why you say "Despite more attempts" when Harden is BOTH more prolific AND more efficient. If you were to give Harden the same usage% that Klay gets, he would STILL score more points and thats not even counting how much more efficient Harden would be if he could pick his spots. Remember when he was in OKC and putting up historic levels of efficiency that (combined with his skillset) just screamed superstar?


Klay is also a much better 3 point shooter. Klay may not have had an elite season yet, but lack of opportunity has played a part in that just like it did for Harden in OKC.

Lack of support also plays a role in Harden's defensive game. Harden used to check the tough guys, he wasn't as good as Klay but he remained the superior offensive player even in OKC.



For example, Harden only had a career high PPG at 19 per 36 with OKC and Klay's last 2 are around 25.

And those 19pts came with a staggering O-RTG (essentially ppp) of 126 vs 112 with Klay. He then continued his superior efficiency with the FAR greater load in Houston. Harden was so efficient that despite so much more responsibilities, his PER barely nudged after the move. His PER was 21.1 in OKC and 23 in Houston. ALL of his advanced metrics in both OKC and Houston outshine Klays. Simply put, there has yet to be a role where Harden doesn't grade as the superior player despite your excuse of "lack of opportunity". The opportunity is there, Klay is just not as good offensively and he lacks the playmaking ability that Harden has ALWAYS showed. He was such a skilled passer that he was actually the decision maker down the stretch on a team with RWB and KD. Wake me up when Kerr decides that Klay should be the one setting the team up instead of Curry or KD this year.

Im actually curious to see what becomes of Klay with KD and Curry taking the top duties, I highly doubt he becomes as efficient as Harden was when playing in a similar role to Harden in OKC.

latinofire21
07-21-2016, 01:12 PM
Because you can manipulate the game to a higher degree offensively than you ever could defensively. Its easier to hide a defensive liability than an offensive one. Just think of it this way, Bruce Bowen was a monster defensively, yet he would NEVER be in contention for MVP the way Harden has, you think anyone would be dumb enough to take Lindsey Hunter over Steve Nash?

For bigmen it gets alot more important but even then I wouldn't say its half the game.


It really doesnt.


Not sure why you say "Despite more attempts" when Harden is BOTH more prolific AND more efficient. If you were to give Harden the same usage% that Klay gets, he would STILL score more points and thats not even counting how much more efficient Harden would be if he could pick his spots. Remember when he was in OKC and putting up historic levels of efficiency that (combined with his skillset) just screamed superstar?


Lack of support also plays a role in Harden's defensive game. Harden used to check the tough guys, he wasn't as good as Klay but he remained the superior offensive player even in OKC.



And those 19pts came with a staggering O-RTG (essentially ppp) of 126 vs 112 with Klay. He then continued his superior efficiency with the FAR greater load in Houston. Harden was so efficient that despite so much more responsibilities, his PER barely nudged after the move. His PER was 21.1 in OKC and 23 in Houston. ALL of his advanced metrics in both OKC and Houston outshine Klays. Simply put, there has yet to be a role where Harden doesn't grade as the superior player despite your excuse of "lack of opportunity". The opportunity is there, Klay is just not as good offensively and he lacks the playmaking ability that Harden has ALWAYS showed. He was such a skilled passer that he was actually the decision maker down the stretch on a team with RWB and KD. Wake me up when Kerr decides that Klay should be the one setting the team up instead of Curry or KD this year.

Im actually curious to see what becomes of Klay with KD and Curry taking the top duties, I highly doubt he becomes as efficient as Harden was when playing in a similar role to Harden in OKC.

I don't think you can compare roles like that to be honest. Steph is a more willing passer than Westbrook and the year harden was on okc he played a super sub role against second units. Yes he did play down the stretch of games but he wasn't a starter playing starter minutes

Chronz
07-21-2016, 02:22 PM
I don't think you can compare roles like that to be honest. Steph is a more willing passer than Westbrook and the year harden was on okc he played a super sub role against second units. Yes he did play down the stretch of games but he wasn't a starter playing starter minutes
Steph being a more willing passer and superior shooter only strengthens my argument. OKC took the ball out of the hands of a guy like RWB despite being inept off the ball and being the teams primary playmaker all game long. Thats how visibly gifted Harden was as a playmaker, whereas Klay is visibly average at best. Not even comparing their assists, just looking at how often they turn it over on passes vs how often they get assists, they have nearly identical assist:bad pass ratio. Thats pretty sad when you consider that Klay gets the lower risk chances given the nature of the offense and talent/shooting alongside him.

And the off the bench comment can go both ways, several studies have shown its harder to sustain the efficiency coming off the bench, prolly not for Harden but he proved capable of sustaining superior efficiency with a much greater load so as far as proving yourself in multiple environments goes, Harden crushes Klay. In this debate, I see no reason to make excuses when one guy leaves room for none.

I mean the guy was playing 31.4 MPG, in Klays best season individually, he played 31.9MPG and he was at 33.3 this year. If these are critical aspects of a pro Klay argument then its a really hard sell. Klay is going to have the easiest looks any elite shooter has ever had, if he doesn't approach Hardens efficiency level, it should put the debate to rest, there is simply no conceivable role where he outpaces Harden.

latinofire21
07-21-2016, 02:51 PM
Steph being a more willing passer and superior shooter only strengthens my argument. OKC took the ball out of the hands of a guy like RWB despite being inept off the ball and being the teams primary playmaker all game long. Thats how visibly gifted Harden was as a playmaker, whereas Klay is visibly average at best. Not even comparing their assists, just looking at how often they turn it over on passes vs how often they get assists, they have nearly identical assist:bad pass ratio. Thats pretty sad when you consider that Klay gets the lower risk chances given the nature of the offense and talent/shooting alongside him.

And the off the bench comment can go both ways, several studies have shown its harder to sustain the efficiency coming off the bench, prolly not for Harden but he proved capable of sustaining superior efficiency with a much greater load so as far as proving yourself in multiple environments goes, Harden crushes Klay. In this debate, I see no reason to make excuses when one guy leaves room for none.

I mean the guy was playing 31.4 MPG, in Klays best season individually, he played 31.9MPG and he was at 33.3 this year. If these are critical aspects of a pro Klay argument then its a really hard sell. Klay is going to have the easiest looks any elite shooter has ever had, if he doesn't approach Hardens efficiency level, it should put the debate to rest, there is simply no conceivable role where he outpaces Harden.

I guess you missed my point. Everyone knew at the time of the Harden trade that he was a good player. They didn't know how bad his defense would be but it was clear that he should have been the starting 2 for the team. They put him in the game off the bench because there wasn't enough basketball to go around to keep their players in the flow. Westbrook/Harden/KD would never work on the court as a starting unit is what I am trying to say. Klay could fit in with KD and Westbrook without an issue. Harden plays identically to westbrook however westbrook is light years ahead as a complete player with his defense.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 02:54 PM
I picked Klay. I just think he's so underrated by so many because he isn't the number one option on his team and doesn't put up the video game numbers others put up. But I've watched him a lot and he is just so solid across the board. Every single time I watch him, I become even more impressed with this defense. It's not about steals and blocks. Its about his ability to keep smaller guys in front of him and contest every shot. He smothers smaller guys with his length and is a chore to try to drive past. I just love his defensive game. On the offensive side, I just feel like his public perception is being hurt by being a #2 option. I personally believe that he has all the tools to score an easy 25 PPG with efficiency if given the opportunity as a #1 option. I think when people say that Curry takes attention away and makes the game easier for Klay, it's just a cop out honestly. The tools are all there to score and score efficiently at will. Also he just as that IT factor. He's a cool customer and never seems to get rattled. He has the intangibles.

Remember, Harden didn't break out until he got traded and got to play away from Durant and Westbrook. Sometimes playing on a crowded team negatively effects your numbers. I think this is what is happening to Klay. He's a part of a great team that shares the basketball and has perhaps the most lethal shooter of all time as his backcourt partner. I truly believe Klay would do ridiculous things if he had the chance like Harden got. He'd win less of course, but I don't think his individual game would suffer.

Give me Klay all day. This game isn't just about numbers. Klay does so much on a basketball court that numbers can't justly measure.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 02:59 PM
I also think it's absurd that Paul George is ranked that high. I don't think he deserves to be higher than Klay and I think there are several others that can easily be ranked higher. Harden and Cousins are better as well IMO.

Vee-Rex
07-21-2016, 02:59 PM
He's arguably the most dynamic, best defensive player in the league and hit >38% from three and averaged more APG than Damian Lillard or Lebron James (and 95% of the rest of the league). He has a skill-set that maybe 5 players in NBA history could duplicate. He was top 10 in VORP and RPM the past two seasons for a reason. Draymond Green is a monster, and highly underrated. He missed G5 of the Finals and the Warriors don't have a b2b championship because of that fact. If anything, that's the only reason why he should have been rated below Anthony Davis.

To be fair, I'd probably average a ton of APG if I was passing the ball to people like Klay and Steph and had Bogut setting illegal screens for them.

Put Steph/Harden/LeBron/any of the players on this top 9 list on the Sixers and they dominate. Do it with Draymond and I see him putting up 17/9/5. A slightly better version of Paul Millsap and a borderline all-star, but definitely not a top 10 player.

If anything, Draymond Green is often overrated. He just happens to be the perfect cog in GS's system.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 03:06 PM
The underrating for Cousins I think is absurd. He's not a perfect player, but trust me he's insanely valuable. I remember watching the Kings with and without Cousins (he was out for a few games) and his absence just left a huge void that couldn't possibly be felt. Sometimes I don't love his shot selection, but like Harden he does one thing really well that I think goes underappreciated and that is pound it inside and get to the line. He can do that at will.

I also think Cousins gets unfairly analyzed as a poor defender. I think he's gotten a lot better on that side of the ball and quite frankly I think his struggles are more related to his team's defense being worse than his individual defense.

I guess Cousins biggest weakness is that when things get bad on the court for his team, he often loses control. He's a hot head and doesn't always keep his composure. That's when he forces bad shots and has defensive lapses. While that is an issue, it's also true to say that his supporting cast has been horrible. He's just been horribly overmatched and too many times has to put the entire team on his back and sometimes in just caves in on him. Give him a better supporting cast and another superstar to play with and when the wins start rolling in you'll see less of his issues popping up during games.

He's not perfect, but too many underrated him and fault him for things that aren't his fault.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 03:47 PM
I guess you missed my point. Everyone knew at the time of the Harden trade that he was a good player. They didn't know how bad his defense would be but it was clear that he should have been the starting 2 for the team. They put him in the game off the bench because there wasn't enough basketball to go around to keep their players in the flow. Westbrook/Harden/KD would never work on the court as a starting unit is what I am trying to say. Klay could fit in with KD and Westbrook without an issue. Harden plays identically to westbrook however westbrook is light years ahead as a complete player with his defense.

That last part made me throw up alil. RWB is a bad defender as well and was worse this year than Harden last year. I get what you're saying with regards to the 6th man comment but you're going to the extreme by saying it would never work. I have a hard time believe a team would willingly close teams out with a lineup that isn't there best. Maybe you mean it would be a waste of their talent to have them share all the time together and never apart.

OKC did it to best stagger the minutes on that team, Pop has done something similar with Manu but he could always start him if they didn't need the bench lift, like he did in Manu's All-Star year.

Looking solely at the splits(per36), the Thunder were a +4 with RWB on the court but Harden off of it. That number grows to a +8.4 with both RWB and Harden on the court and thats pretty telling IMO because this was their 4th quarter lineup in high leverage situations. I would look up the numbers with KD but I remember those years and RWB and KD virtually never played without each other back then so I doubt anything changes.

I do agree with you that Klay would fit in better alongside RWB and KD but Im not sold that the team would be better given his inferior production nor would that make him the better player if Im wrong. Heres how I view it, as the teams 3rd/4th best player, Klay might be more valuable to a team than Harden but the higher up the totem pole we go, the more Harden's value rises. I will gladly take the player I know is superior as the #1 or 2 guy even if it comes at the expense of a potentially valuable role player.

We'll see how Klay handles it but if he doesn't at least approach Harden's efficiency, just how easy does he have to have it before we see him match Harden?

Chronz
07-21-2016, 03:52 PM
The underrating for Cousins I think is absurd. He's not a perfect player, but trust me he's insanely valuable. I remember watching the Kings with and without Cousins (he was out for a few games) and his absence just left a huge void that couldn't possibly be felt. Sometimes I don't love his shot selection, but like Harden he does one thing really well that I think goes underappreciated and that is pound it inside and get to the line. He can do that at will.

I also think Cousins gets unfairly analyzed as a poor defender. I think he's gotten a lot better on that side of the ball and quite frankly I think his struggles are more related to his team's defense being worse than his individual defense.

I guess Cousins biggest weakness is that when things get bad on the court for his team, he often loses control. He's a hot head and doesn't always keep his composure. That's when he forces bad shots and has defensive lapses. While that is an issue, it's also true to say that his supporting cast has been horrible. He's just been horribly overmatched and too many times has to put the entire team on his back and sometimes in just caves in on him. Give him a better supporting cast and another superstar to play with and when the wins start rolling in you'll see less of his issues popping up during games.

He's not perfect, but too many underrated him and fault him for things that aren't his fault.

I've come around on Cousins but its not his time yet. Yes hes shackled by a poor team, but his effort wavering does him no favors. You dont get extra credit for mailing it in. Like when KG was on a **** Minny team, he took some plays off but make no mistake, the dude played his heart out and his productive value on both ends was apparent whereas with Cousins, all we have are short stretches of utter dominance before he quits

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 04:15 PM
Fair enough

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 04:19 PM
But I've seen Harden give up too when his team starts stinking it up. I've seen other players do the same. Being lazy on defense and not playing smart offensively when things go south. This isn't just a Cousins issue IMO. It's just that this happens with Cousins a lot more than some others because he team sucks worse than others.

Still, it's an issue and I won't ignore it. I hate when he starts pouting and playing lazy/stupid basketball. That's not leadership. I just think for Cousins, it's not purely immaturity though. I think a lot of it is built up years of frustration. He wants to win so bad, and he just can't because his team is consistently bad.

FlashBolt
07-21-2016, 04:40 PM
Also... Cousins isnt a top 10 player but just had a year where he averaged 27/12/3 with almost 2 blocks and steals per game and shot 45 percent and 33 from 3... I have no words.

Empty stats/He dont win/Yada yada yada.


How is Harden/PG/AD better than Cousins?

Why is it difficult to comprehend that they are equal players as well? Someone has to be chosen so at this point, it's all about who you prefer.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 05:01 PM
But I've seen Harden give up too when his team starts stinking it up. I've seen other players do the same. Being lazy on defense and not playing smart offensively when things go south. This isn't just a Cousins issue IMO. It's just that this happens with Cousins a lot more than some others because he team sucks worse than others.

Still, it's an issue and I won't ignore it. I hate when he starts pouting and playing lazy/stupid basketball. That's not leadership. I just think for Cousins, it's not purely immaturity though. I think a lot of it is built up years of frustration. He wants to win so bad, and he just can't because his team is consistently bad.

Yeah but its kind of hard to get on Harden when hes led the league in minutes played for like the last 4 years overall. The guy has legitimately carried his team on his back more than anyone else, hes entitled to a few defensive lapses in my book. He definitely takes it too far sometimes but with bigmen, its much less defensible. Harden quits on plays and games but Cousins quits on seasons. I mean, Harden could have easily seen the hole they were in to start the year and just truly stopped caring, but look at his splits, he was basically at 30-8-7 to end the year IIRC. He upped his effort (on offense at least) and the team rebounded despite obvious chemistry issues with he and Dwight.

You're gonna see a completely different Houston team this year. They sold the former Pelicans they added on Harden's selfless passing opening up their games. Dwight didn't want that

FlashBolt
07-21-2016, 05:14 PM
Yeah but its kind of hard to get on Harden when hes led the league in minutes played for like the last 4 years overall. The guy has legitimately carried his team on his back more than anyone else, hes entitled to a few defensive lapses in my book. He definitely takes it too far sometimes but with bigmen, its much less defensible. Harden quits on plays and games but Cousins quits on seasons. I mean, Harden could have easily seen the hole they were in to start the year and just truly stopped caring, but look at his splits, he was basically at 30-8-7 to end the year IIRC. He upped his effort (on offense at least) and the team rebounded despite obvious chemistry issues with he and Dwight.

You're gonna see a completely different Houston team this year. They sold the former Pelicans they added on Harden's selfless passing opening up their games. Dwight didn't want that

I'm sorry but that's not an excuse. Maybe he wouldn't have to lead the league in minutes played if he stopped allowing the opposing player easy points. And it's not really a few defensive lapses. Those are just the most obvious ones. If you watch an entire game of Harden's, you will see that he doesn't stay in front of his man, goes for the strip instead of trying to stay in front of a player who is driving to the rim, is late on many defensive plays. Most of the times, I'm seeing Howard having to go over for the help defense and then get most of the blame because it's his man that ends up scoring because of Howard having to rotate.

Bruno
07-21-2016, 05:38 PM
Harden, Jimmy or Klay here.

is it too early for a Towns nomination?

Chronz
07-21-2016, 06:37 PM
I'm sorry but that's not an excuse. Maybe he wouldn't have to lead the league in minutes played if he stopped allowing the opposing player easy points.
Maybe the opposing players would get less easy points if he were on a team that could afford him more rest. You're really not going to convince anyone that Harden isn't a huge net positive for his team, so given the fact that he is, to the tune of being the MVP in the players eyes, it deems his load as such to allow a few lapses. Im with you on him needing to improve his defense even if it comes at the expense of some offense but I will never agree its to the extent that we ignore the load hes carried. Its a legit excuse


And it's not really a few defensive lapses. Those are just the most obvious ones. If you watch an entire game of Harden's, you will see that he doesn't stay in front of his man, goes for the strip instead of trying to stay in front of a player who is driving to the rim, is late on many defensive plays. Most of the times, I'm seeing Howard having to go over for the help defense and then get most of the blame because it's his man that ends up scoring because of Howard having to rotate.

I have followed the Rockets closely since Yao so I'll pass on your synopsis. But yeah I was speaking about the glaring ones, everything else is really no different than alot of guys and ignores what he does well (his post D, particularly on switches is stout and he gets a ton of steals) and I disagree with your opinion of his man2man defense its not that bad, his major problems stem from floor balance(an effort issue) and ball watching (an intelligence issue).

Bron was nothing to brag about defensively when he first got back in Cleveland. With better defensive talent alongside him, his effort improved this year but the guy coasts more than Harden does so why is it OK for him but unacceptable from Harden?

Harden has proven capable of playing passable defense with his incredible load. That matters despite him taking more plays off this year.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 07:22 PM
I've come around on Cousins but its not his time yet. Yes hes shackled by a poor team, but his effort wavering does him no favors. You dont get extra credit for mailing it in. Like when KG was on a **** Minny team, he took some plays off but make no mistake, the dude played his heart out and his productive value on both ends was apparent whereas with Cousins, all we have are short stretches of utter dominance before he quits

I can live with this but in your opinion is PG even close? I dont think it is and what could AD current have over him? What argument could klay/Green have over him? Do you think either of those guys perform like cousins has with the help cousins has had around him? In any sac game its stop cousins.... All the players outside of AD I mentioned in this post arent the focal point of the entire other team.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 07:24 PM
Harden, Jimmy or Klay here.

is it too early for a Towns nomination?

Omfg Jimmy/Klay/Towns over cousins as well? sdgbhkbghlk

CHANGO
07-21-2016, 07:26 PM
I just want to see what Harden does this season, there's no Dwight to blame when things go wrong, there's no Dwight to blame when team chemistry is off.

Let's see...

BTW of the top 10 players in USG, (list that includes Cousins, Harden, PG, Dame, Lebron, Wade, Steph, Kobe, etc...) the players with the worst DRTG are (in order) Kobe, Cousins, Wade, Harden, Lillard, and the list goes on.

DanG
07-21-2016, 07:28 PM
****, looking at the players on the board I can't believe I just came from arguing Klay/Harden over Wade in the other thread.

Between Dray and Harden for me. Going with Harden, dude put up 29/6/8 and played EVERY game.

Bruno
07-21-2016, 07:33 PM
Omfg Jimmy/Klay/Towns over cousins as well? sdgbhkbghlk

as long as thing don't go full sour grapes in sacramento cousins should outproduce Towns next year. but I think Towns might be better.

FlashBolt
07-22-2016, 12:43 AM
Maybe the opposing players would get less easy points if he were on a team that could afford him more rest. You're really not going to convince anyone that Harden isn't a huge net positive for his team, so given the fact that he is, to the tune of being the MVP in the players eyes, it deems his load as such to allow a few lapses. Im with you on him needing to improve his defense even if it comes at the expense of some offense but I will never agree its to the extent that we ignore the load hes carried. Its a legit excuse


I have followed the Rockets closely since Yao so I'll pass on your synopsis. But yeah I was speaking about the glaring ones, everything else is really no different than alot of guys and ignores what he does well (his post D, particularly on switches is stout and he gets a ton of steals) and I disagree with your opinion of his man2man defense its not that bad, his major problems stem from floor balance(an effort issue) and ball watching (an intelligence issue).

Bron was nothing to brag about defensively when he first got back in Cleveland. With better defensive talent alongside him, his effort improved this year but the guy coasts more than Harden does so why is it OK for him but unacceptable from Harden?

Harden has proven capable of playing passable defense with his incredible load. That matters despite him taking more plays off this year.

Please don't compare Bron's defense to Harden's. Harden is of prime age while LeBron has tons of mileage. We all saw a sheer difference in defensive intensity when the playoffs started. Ever since Harden's third season, he's quit on defense. Maybe Artest elbowed him a bit too hard and he has had issues recovering from it but try watching a game from him then tell me he doesn't collapse on defense at least 20 times per game. Whether it's falling asleep on a cut, not being able to stay in front of his man, or just flat-out standing there. Saying you followed the Rockets closely since Yao doesn't even prove anything. Maybe that line works with someone who believes everyone online. What you're trying to say is he's so great offensively that he is too tired to defend. Oh, really? How many players have played solo but have played amazing defense? That's simply not an excuse for a professional athlete. Somehow when it comes back to the offensive end, he has so much energy to score but when it comes to defending, he's tired? McHale said he came to the season overweight and slow. That's on him hanging around the Kardashians.

Green_Monster
07-22-2016, 01:05 AM
The underrating for Cousins I think is absurd. He's not a perfect player, but trust me he's insanely valuable. I remember watching the Kings with and without Cousins (he was out for a few games) and his absence just left a huge void that couldn't possibly be felt. Sometimes I don't love his shot selection, but like Harden he does one thing really well that I think goes underappreciated and that is pound it inside and get to the line. He can do that at will.

I also think Cousins gets unfairly analyzed as a poor defender. I think he's gotten a lot better on that side of the ball and quite frankly I think his struggles are more related to his team's defense being worse than his individual defense.

I guess Cousins biggest weakness is that when things get bad on the court for his team, he often loses control. He's a hot head and doesn't always keep his composure. That's when he forces bad shots and has defensive lapses. While that is an issue, it's also true to say that his supporting cast has been horrible. He's just been horribly overmatched and too many times has to put the entire team on his back and sometimes in just caves in on him. Give him a better supporting cast and another superstar to play with and when the wins start rolling in you'll see less of his issues popping up during games.

He's not perfect, but too many underrated him and fault him for things that aren't his fault.

I think Cousins has become underrated as well. He's a beast.

He goes next for me after Harden.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 01:45 AM
Please don't compare Bron's defense to Harden's. Harden is of prime age while LeBron has tons of mileage. We all saw a sheer difference in defensive intensity when the playoffs started. Ever since Harden's third season, he's quit on defense. Maybe Artest elbowed him a bit too hard and he has had issues recovering from it
I can and did compare it. That Bron preserves doesn't change the fact that Harden doesn't have that luxury considering he was deemed to be the MVP in the players eyes so obviously he was trying. You just dont like the distribution of his effort. I get the sense you think it should be a 50/50 balance when Im more like he should be at 60-40. Like Kobe was lauded for his defensive effort but he was coasting at this stage of his career as well, Harden is just dumber and less athletic so he cant get away with it as well. Anyways, the point about his workload and minutes stand. Hes a HUGE net + for the Rockets and because of that fact, you can never convince any rational person that his workload doesn't play a factor for such a mediocre club.


but try watching a game from him then tell me he doesn't collapse on defense at least 20 times per game. Whether it's falling asleep on a cut, not being able to stay in front of his man, or just flat-out standing there. Saying you followed the Rockets closely since Yao doesn't even prove anything. Maybe that line works with someone who believes everyone online.
Thats kind of my point. You seem to think the onus is on me to prove that I watch the games when your presumptuous claims have nothing behind them but equally inept claims. I dont believe that you KNOW how much games I watch so me saying I do in fact watch them is the EASIEST way to refute such a hollow and empty critique. I couldn't possibly care less about how much basketball you think I watch, you've already proven to lie about what you know about NBA history just a few weeks ago, remember?
LOL, watch a game bro. Sorry, I watched the games, you dont know what you're looking at.


What you're trying to say is he's so great offensively that he is too tired to defend. Oh, really?
What Im saying is his league leading workload most definitely plays some sort of factor in his defensive approach. My reasoning is that I've seen him commit more effort when hes had more support and I've seen him take more plays off when he has to carry the team entirely.


How many players have played solo but have played amazing defense?
lol, what? You speak as if you have a great understanding on this one so, you tell me, chief.


That's simply not an excuse for a professional athlete. Somehow when it comes back to the offensive end, he has so much energy to score but when it comes to defending, he's tired? McHale said he came to the season overweight and slow. That's on him hanging around the Kardashians.

I have no quarrel with his apparent lack of work ethic but he wouldn't be the first to use the regular season to get himself in shape. It doesn't change what he actually means to the team, obviously if he were super fit/trim he would be even greater, we're not here to debate potential just the actuality of their games.

IKnowHoops
07-22-2016, 01:54 AM
For me it goes.

Blake
Harden

Blake is a complete beast when he starts handling the ball and going at the rim and play making. Chris Paul is awesome, but there is some overlap in game and Paul handling the ball so much takes away a lot from Blakes game.

When Paul was out last during the 2014-2015 season Blake was putting up ridiculous numbers. I love Blake's game and think he truly is the better player over Harden. But its close and I'm fine with either.

Shammyguy3
07-23-2016, 10:59 AM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?912581-10th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

continue here for #10

JordansBulls
07-23-2016, 11:14 AM
I said it last thread and I'll say it again this thread...

If people like wall, Irving, Aldridge, Lowry, and griffin are on this poll, then Carmelo Anthony should be in it too.

He's not someone I'd vote in the top 15 last season, but to have those guys up there and not have Melo is kind of wrong. Irving had a strong finals. Rest of the season was considered a disappointment. Wall had a pretty meh season compared to the previous season. Aldridge did ok. Griffins had a horrible year.

Melo went 22/8/4/1 while stepping up his overall defense and pleading the Knicks in assists. Best rebounding SF in the league too.

I'm not voting for him now, but if we are putting names like the ones mentioned above, then no reason to keep melo out of the poll

And Dwyane Wade