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View Full Version : Kyrie Facetimed Kobe After Game 7, Wants Another Ring



Tony_Starks
07-18-2016, 09:42 AM
You can tell Kyrie is hungry. He came up big time in the Finals and the best part is he isn't satisfied. Great news for Cavs fans.
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The Cavs proceeded to win the game and the series, and Irving etched his name in NBA glory forever. The dream continued into Irving’s celebration. “I actually FaceTimed Kobe after the game as soon as I got in the locker room,” Irving says. “Other than seeing my dad and my sister right after we won, FaceTiming him was just a great thing, knowing how he has won five and I just won my first. Then realizing how hard it is just to win one, my respect for him is already high, but it went to another level knowing that he’s got five of them. I’m trying to get a second one.” – via Yahoo! Sports

"[Bryant] was telling me congrats,” Irving says of the FaceTime. “I had been speaking to him throughout the entire playoffs and during the season. During the Finals, we didn’t really talk as much, because for me, I wanted to experience it full on, and if I needed his help, I would reach out to him. He would send me some texts here and there, but mainly he kind of let me be, and let me grow into my own space.” – via Yahoo! Sport


http://www.thepostgame.com/kyrie-irving-facetimed-kobe-right-after-game-7

Chronz
07-18-2016, 09:58 AM
Uh oh, I hope this doesn't lead to Kyrie wanting to showcase his "improvements" and not falling in line with what his teammates and coaches expect of him

HandsOnTheWheel
07-18-2016, 10:15 AM
Ok.

Tony_Starks
07-18-2016, 10:20 AM
Uh oh, I hope this doesn't lead to Kyrie wanting to showcase his "improvements" and not falling in line with what his teammates and coaches expect of him

I know right.

I just hope it doesn't lead him to become top 5 in MVP voting and best player at his position for over a decade either.

All bad.

cmellofan15
07-18-2016, 11:15 AM
I just hope he doesn't try to get lebron traded and he keeps his jimmy in his pants when he's visiting us in the rockies..

Vee-Rex
07-18-2016, 11:31 AM
Great kid. People act like he's 28 or 29 and judge him accordingly. He is most deadly when he has a killer mentality, and coach Lue has shot down a lot of haters when he acknowledges that he ENCOURAGES Kyrie to be aggressive and look for his shot. He's a top 5 mid-range jump shooter (Curry, Lillard, Durant, Bosh, Irving in no order) at over 46%, while being an incredible finisher in the paint, terrific 3point shooter, and best clutch/last second shot player in the league.

That's the kind of player you want to be extremely aggressive. He's gonna take some bad shots here and there. That's what Kobe did, that's what MJ did. He's just gotta get a little better at knowing when to dish the ball on his drives. He's a 5.5 career assist guy, it's not like he's averaging 2 assists per game. If he can bring that up to 6.5'ish then I'm perfectly happy.

I'm predicting a 'breakout' year for Kyrie with LeBron becoming a bit more passive during the regular season. 25ppg, 6apg... all while being the 3rd most efficient, high-volume, star PG in the league (behind Curry and Paul). You heard it here first.

naps
07-18-2016, 11:48 AM
Ok.
Now try to win 2 more on LeBron's coattails and then try to trade LeBron out of town so you can avg 27 shots a game.

Chronz
07-18-2016, 11:49 AM
I know right.

I just hope it doesn't lead him to become top 5 in MVP voting and best player at his position for over a decade either.

All bad.

That didn't happen after his first title tho, it makes no sense

Tony_Starks
07-18-2016, 11:50 AM
Great kid. People act like he's 28 or 29 and judge him accordingly. He is most deadly when he has a killer mentality, and coach Lue has shot down a lot of haters when he acknowledges that he ENCOURAGES Kyrie to be aggressive and look for his shot. He's a top 5 mid-range jump shooter (Curry, Lillard, Durant, Bosh, Irving in no order) at over 46%, while being an incredible finisher in the paint, terrific 3point shooter, and best clutch/last second shot player in the league.

That's the kind of player you want to be extremely aggressive. He's gonna take some bad shots here and there. That's what Kobe did, that's what MJ did. He's just gotta get a little better at knowing when to dish the ball on his drives. He's a 5.5 career assist guy, it's not like he's averaging 2 assists per game. If he can bring that up to 6.5'ish then I'm perfectly happy.

I'm predicting a 'breakout' year for Kyrie with LeBron becoming a bit more passive during the regular season. 25ppg, 6apg... all while being the 3rd most efficient, high-volume, star PG in the league (behind Curry and Paul). You heard it here first.

I'm with you, I think Kyrie being more aggressive is the perfect balance as Lebron ages. Him shouldering the scoring allows Lebron to coast a bit and be fresh for the playoff run, as opposed to being burned out from having to do it all during the Reg season.

I can see Kyries numbers up across the board with Lebron just efficiently picking his spots and getting his usual.

Tony_Starks
07-18-2016, 11:58 AM
That didn't happen after his first title tho, it makes no sense

You're right. Kobe started being top 5 MVP in 2001, after the second title, until like 2013.

So i guess technically Kyrie would have to wait until they win back to back.

FlashBolt
07-18-2016, 12:00 PM
Kyrie is better now than Curry was at the same age. I don't expect him to reach Curry status but he's going to be freaking 24 next season...

Chronz
07-18-2016, 12:24 PM
I just hope he doesn't try to get lebron traded and he keeps his jimmy in his pants when he's visiting us in the rockies..

lol, low blow

Chronz
07-18-2016, 12:26 PM
You're right. Kobe started being top 5 MVP in 2001, after the second title, until like 2013.

So i guess technically Kyrie would have to wait until they win back to back.

Yup. He also has to get hurt in order to realize the harm hes doing. I guess he kind of learned that last year so he may be ahead of schedule. + Bron is much older than Shaq at that point so he might need to take the reigns much quicker than Kobe could.

Chronz
07-18-2016, 12:35 PM
Great kid. People act like he's 28 or 29 and judge him accordingly. He is most deadly when he has a killer mentality, and coach Lue has shot down a lot of haters when he acknowledges that he ENCOURAGES Kyrie to be aggressive and look for his shot. He's a top 5 mid-range jump shooter (Curry, Lillard, Durant, Bosh, Irving in no order) at over 46%, while being an incredible finisher in the paint, terrific 3point shooter, and best clutch/last second shot player in the league.

That's the kind of player you want to be extremely aggressive. He's gonna take some bad shots here and there. That's what Kobe did, that's what MJ did. He's just gotta get a little better at knowing when to dish the ball on his drives. He's a 5.5 career assist guy, it's not like he's averaging 2 assists per game. If he can bring that up to 6.5'ish then I'm perfectly happy.

I'm predicting a 'breakout' year for Kyrie with LeBron becoming a bit more passive during the regular season. 25ppg, 6apg... all while being the 3rd most efficient, high-volume, star PG in the league (behind Curry and Paul). You heard it here first.

Doubt he encourages him to watch his misses as his man runs the other way and starts the break. Its possible to appreciate his game and recognize his flaws. Not sure what you think him being 24 is suppose to exonerate, NBA history spans a long time man. I've seen 20 year old kids with more defensive poise or better shot selection than this man. I get that hes a gifted scorer, but you know damn well the difference between good and bad isolation and its the good isolation attacks that his coach encourages.

He found a great balance for the most part in the playoffs, all people want is for him to sustain that balance all year. Dont think thats too much to ask of a 24 year old.


PS CP3 is the best mid range shooter in the game, Curry doesn't really rely on that shot but I honestly dont know his efficiency from there either. Bosh? How is Bosh better than Dirk?

Why not just stick with him being a top-5 3pt shooter where Kyrie really stands out?

Tony_Starks
07-18-2016, 12:43 PM
Kyrie is better now than Curry was at the same age. I don't expect him to reach Curry status but he's going to be freaking 24 next season...

Kyrie and Curry is going to become a very interesting conversation. He's already outplayed him in the Finals to the point where they even intentionally put Curry on a island for Kyrie to give him the game winner.

Currys the better shooter of course but IMO Kyrie has a better handle.

FlashBolt
07-18-2016, 01:17 PM
Kyrie and Curry is going to become a very interesting conversation. He's already outplayed him in the Finals to the point where they even intentionally put Curry on a island for Kyrie to give him the game winner.

Currys the better shooter of course but IMO Kyrie has a better handle.

I remember when everyone started saying Curry might have the best handles and I just laughed. Kyrie's handles are just on another level. Though his defense needs improvement, he's already a better defender than Curry in that he is capable of playing defense. I would not be surprised if Kyrie could one day lead the league in scoring.

Vee-Rex
07-18-2016, 01:38 PM
Doubt he encourages him to watch his misses as his man runs the other way and starts the break. Its possible to appreciate his game and recognize his flaws. Not sure what you think him being 24 is suppose to exonerate, NBA history spans a long time man. I've seen 20 year old kids with more defensive poise or better shot selection than this man. I get that hes a gifted scorer, but you know damn well the difference between good and bad isolation and its the good isolation attacks that his coach encourages.

He found a great balance for the most part in the playoffs, all people want is for him to sustain that balance all year. Dont think thats too much to ask of a 24 year old.


PS CP3 is the best mid range shooter in the game, Curry doesn't really rely on that shot but I honestly dont know his efficiency from there either. Bosh? How is Bosh better than Dirk?

Why not just stick with him being a top-5 3pt shooter where Kyrie really stands out?

Oh I know his flaws, I just think sometimes they're exaggerated/focused on far more than his actual talent.

Obviously he's capable of being a better defender (as he does in the playoffs), so like you said why don't he do it in the regular season? Perhaps as a Cavs fan I don't care much about that right now since we're most likely a lock for the #1 seed and the only way we won't be the favorites in the East is if we get injured.

Why have Kyrie, who has had injuries issues, play all-out 150% in the 82-game regular season when the team is likely to be a #1 seed anyway? Perhaps that's why Lowry is always semi-banged up in the playoffs? I watch the man all the time and see when he's engaged, he defends surprisingly well.

Until LeBron returned, Kyrie became a better defender each year in the league (based on DBPM numbers). His first year he was absolutely terrible on that end, but Byron Scott was pretty vocal about trying to get Kyrie to focus on that end.

At the end of the day, his defense is inconsistent and his pass/shot selection can be suspect. That's all it is IMO.

I mentioned mid range because generally players show more aggression to get that mid-range shot off.

I was wrong with the 5 players I listed (apparently that's how it looked mid-season). Here's a much more fuller list of top-tier players and their efficiency from mid-range for the WHOLE 2015-16 year (NBA.com statistics):

Durant - 49.5%
Kyrie - 49.2%
Chris Paul - 45.7%
Dirk - 45.1%
Bosh - 45.1%
Aldridge - 43.6%
Leonard - 43.0%
Westbrook - 42.9%
Lillard - 42.6%
Curry - 42.5%
Thompson - 42.3%
Harden - 40.5%
Griffin - 38.1%
Derozan - 38.0%
Lowry - 37.6%
LeBron - 37.5%
Wade - 37.4%
George - 37.0%
Butler - 36.8%
Cousins - 35.5%

xxplayerxx23
07-18-2016, 02:24 PM
I remember when everyone started saying Curry might have the best handles and I just laughed. Kyrie's handles are just on another level. Though his defense needs improvement, he's already a better defender than Curry in that he is capable of playing defense. I would not be surprised if Kyrie could one day lead the league in scoring.


Bs lmao he's not a better defender than curry lol

smith&wesson
07-18-2016, 03:25 PM
This is one scenario where its ok to be a score first point gaurd, because your best player is Lebron and he likes to facilitate.

I think guards like Kyrie and even someone like Westbrook are a perfect fit alongside James. We all know that James wants to be the point gaurd/point forward whatever you wanna call it. He wants to facilitate and has no issues with other guys putting up shots... Jr Smith, Kyrie, Love or whoever. James just wants to dictate the flow of the offense and doesn't care if he gets 25 shots a game. This is actually the perfect situation for Kyrie.

RLundi
07-18-2016, 04:16 PM
Bs lmao he's not a better defender than curry lol

They both suck tbh.

kobe4thewinbang
07-18-2016, 05:17 PM
cool friendship, Kobe was probably jealous of that awesome play and shot OVER Steph.

More-Than-Most
07-18-2016, 07:07 PM
You can tell Kyrie is hungry. He came up big time in the Finals and the best part is he isn't satisfied. Great news for Cavs fans.
--------------------------------------------

The Cavs proceeded to win the game and the series, and Irving etched his name in NBA glory forever. The dream continued into Irving’s celebration. “I actually FaceTimed Kobe after the game as soon as I got in the locker room,” Irving says. “Other than seeing my dad and my sister right after we won, FaceTiming him was just a great thing, knowing how he has won five and I just won my first. Then realizing how hard it is just to win one, my respect for him is already high, but it went to another level knowing that he’s got five of them. I’m trying to get a second one.” – via Yahoo! Sports

"[Bryant] was telling me congrats,” Irving says of the FaceTime. “I had been speaking to him throughout the entire playoffs and during the season. During the Finals, we didn’t really talk as much, because for me, I wanted to experience it full on, and if I needed his help, I would reach out to him. He would send me some texts here and there, but mainly he kind of let me be, and let me grow into my own space.” – via Yahoo! Sport


http://www.thepostgame.com/kyrie-irving-facetimed-kobe-right-after-game-7

Lol after the cavs won the championship you didnt stop with kyrie looking up to Kobe and yada yada yada... This isnt new... How many people looked up to iverson and so on who never won a ring? This is kyrie looking up to his favorite all time player... OMG HE CHOOSE TO SPEAK WITH KOBE AND THAT SHOWS HE DIDNT TRY TO REACH OUT TO BRON AND YADA YADA YADA...

This is honestly something that shouldnt even be a topic in the main forum.

Vee-Rex
07-18-2016, 07:53 PM
Lol after the cavs won the championship you didnt stop with kyrie looking up to Kobe and yada yada yada... This isnt new... How many people looked up to iverson and so on who never won a ring? This is kyrie looking up to his favorite all time player... OMG HE CHOOSE TO SPEAK WITH KOBE AND THAT SHOWS HE DIDNT TRY TO REACH OUT TO BRON AND YADA YADA YADA...

This is honestly something that shouldnt even be a topic in the main forum.

Either Tony got some complex trolling going on or you're just losing it.

What does his post have to do with LeBron? Tony's obviously a big Kobe fan and so is Kyrie, so I don't know what the problem is with this thread.

naps
07-19-2016, 03:12 AM
Lol after the cavs won the championship you didnt stop with kyrie looking up to Kobe and yada yada yada... This isnt new... How many people looked up to iverson and so on who never won a ring? This is kyrie looking up to his favorite all time player... OMG HE CHOOSE TO SPEAK WITH KOBE AND THAT SHOWS HE DIDNT TRY TO REACH OUT TO BRON AND YADA YADA YADA...

This is honestly something that shouldnt even be a topic in the main forum.

100% what I first thought. I actually guessed who created this thread before clicking on it and I was right. If someone likes Kobe, this guy starts worshiping him and starts advertising it around this forum as if it's a big ****en deal. Well Iverson is the most idiolized/beloved/influential basketball player of all time, may be only behind Jordan. Big deal.

More-Than-Most
07-19-2016, 04:04 AM
Either Tony got some complex trolling going on or you're just losing it.

What does his post have to do with LeBron? Tony's obviously a big Kobe fan and so is Kyrie, so I don't know what the problem is with this thread.

The day it got posted in the laker thread about kyrie thanking Kobe for the game winning 3 he brought up in the NBA area about Lebrons leadership or lack there of to the point I had to bring up this

http://www.fearthesword.com/2016/6/20/11980358/kyrie-irving-on-lebron-james-i-watched-beethoven-tonight


He does this often man... Its 100 percent a complex.

More-Than-Most
07-19-2016, 04:04 AM
edit

Tony_Starks
07-19-2016, 09:37 AM
Either Tony got some complex trolling going on or you're just losing it.

What does his post have to do with LeBron? Tony's obviously a big Kobe fan and so is Kyrie, so I don't know what the problem is with this thread.

You are correct.

He has lost it.

In his mind basically all things lead to Lebron and Laker fans supposedly hating on him. If you say Kyrie is great, he takes it as a knock on Bron. Say Cleveland might get Cousins, he takes it as a knock on Lebron.

He's basically on a lifelong crusade to defend him, even tho he's just come off one of the greatest Finals ever and needs absolutely NO defense at this point.

Tony_Starks
07-19-2016, 09:50 AM
cool friendship, Kobe was probably jealous of that awesome play and shot OVER Steph.

Oh I'm sure he was. They've had this big brother little brother thing going for a while though. Remember that stretch under Antoni where Kobe was the "facilitator" with Nash out and guarding the other teams starting pg? He locked Kyrie up the whole night and I remember Kyrie raving about it after the game, even saying he's never been defended like that.

He obviously has a lot of respect for him..... ( unlike some people around these parts)

FlashBolt
07-19-2016, 11:35 AM
Bs lmao he's not a better defender than curry lol

Yes he is. He's quicker, tougher, built physically stronger, and takes it as a challenge. I heard he's going around the USA Olympic team players and asking them to play 1-on-1. That's simply the type of player he is. I saw a picture of him playing against Butler 1-on-1 recently. Never said he was a great defender but most PG's are better defenders than Curry, tbh.

Chronz
07-19-2016, 12:41 PM
Yes he is. He's quicker, tougher, built physically stronger, and takes it as a challenge. I heard he's going around the USA Olympic team players and asking them to play 1-on-1. That's simply the type of player he is. I saw a picture of him playing against Butler 1-on-1 recently. Never said he was a great defender but most PG's are better defenders than Curry, tbh.

LOL. Curry takes it as a challenge too, its something Kerr helped instill in him. If by tougher you mean he was healthier these Finals then sure. Curry is taller, has better instincts, doesn't just watch his misses and gets back on D more consistently and he deflects way more passes.

What does playing 1v1 have to do with anything? Hes been doing that since he was on the tryout team and was a **** defender back then too.

FlashBolt
07-19-2016, 12:45 PM
LOL. Curry takes it as a challenge too, its something Kerr helped instill in him. If by tougher you mean he was healthier these Finals then sure. Curry is taller, has better instincts, doesn't just watch his misses and gets back on D more consistently and he deflects way more passes.

What does playing 1v1 have to do with anything? Hes been doing that since he was on the tryout team and was a **** defender back then too.

1) Curry seems soft to me. Always has.
2) Kerr trying to instill Curry to take it as a challenge doesn't really prove to me that Curry takes it as a personal challenge. Irving does so on the other hand.
3) Curry deflects way more passes because his team is filled with elite defenders and he plays the passing lanes like Iverson did.

What does playing 1v1 had to do with anything? Maybe because it helps you improve your defense? What better way to improve your defense than to play 1v1 and not have to rely on teammates for help coverage?

Every sense of Irving playing defense is weak. He isn't really a great defender but I've seen him hustle for most defensive plays. The issue he has is he always tries to look for the steal and it's easy to change hands and get past him.

Vee-Rex
07-19-2016, 12:56 PM
I love how everyone wants to view Durant as some kind of great/elite defender now because of a handful of games in the playoffs, but when Kyrie plays well defensively for an entire playoffs against talented PGs (Jackson/Teague/Lowry/Curry) he's still a **** defender.

Edit: I'm not gonna call Kyrie great/elite by any means, but I think at this point it's a fair argument to call him an inconsistent defender rather than a **** one.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-19-2016, 01:02 PM
Uh oh, I hope this doesn't lead to Kyrie wanting to showcase his "improvements" and not falling in line with what his teammates and coaches expect of him

Lebron won't allow that to happen

Chronz
07-19-2016, 02:28 PM
1) Curry seems soft to me. Always has.
2) Kerr trying to instill Curry to take it as a challenge doesn't really prove to me that Curry takes it as a personal challenge. Irving does so on the other hand.
3) Curry deflects way more passes because his team is filled with elite defenders and he plays the passing lanes like Iverson did.

1. You seem like you hate him so I dont doubt it. Good thing appearances can be deceiving.
2. Its not suppose to prove anything other than the mindset. As opposed to Kyrie who got coaches canned for not improving defensively. If Irving took that challenge hes failed miserably at it.
3. False, hes far from the reckless gambler AI was. Having great teammates helps him, hes still better than someone like Kyrie thats for sure.



What does playing 1v1 had to do with anything? Maybe because it helps you improve your defense?
Doubtful, I've seen many conflicting arguments on this one and Im not sold either way. Besides, playing 1v1 hasn't improved his defense one bit and it does absolutely nothing to help your team D.


What better way to improve your defense than to play 1v1 and not have to rely on teammates for help coverage?

Because TEAM defense is of the utmost importance, studying film, defensive coverage on how your actions influence the other 4 players on your team, is far more important than playing schoolyard games. Again, Kyries been playing 1v1 a LONG TIME, he was a **** defender back then too. Kyrie's problems stem from inconsistent effort and lack of experience. His positioning on PnR coverage is pretty awful, the Kyrie/Love PnR was the most abused play in the playoffs. Luckily they committed to switching everything in the Finals though it exposed Kyries lack of size on many mismatches (Through the first 2 games GS scored something like 70% against him and thats not counting team lapses).


Every sense of Irving playing defense is weak. He isn't really a great defender but I've seen him hustle for most defensive plays. The issue he has is he always tries to look for the steal and it's easy to change hands and get past him.
Curry is much better defensively, that much Im sure of. A single Finals with a hobbled Curry and Cavs loading up on him isn't going to sway my opinion until I see Kyrie put in consistent effort year round. His defensive fundamentals are really lacking, he doesn't position himself well against screens and in a PnR oriented league, thats kind of a big deal.

Chronz
07-19-2016, 02:35 PM
I love how everyone wants to view Durant as some kind of great/elite defender now because of a handful of games in the playoffs, but when Kyrie plays well defensively for an entire playoffs against talented PGs (Jackson/Teague/Lowry/Curry) he's still a **** defender.

Durant actually has a history of playing great defense, this isn't some one year fluke rather a view at his peak potential. Durant has been a great defender who went DPOY against GS, Kyrie went from **** to below average IMO.




Edit: I'm not gonna call Kyrie great/elite by any means, but I think at this point it's a fair argument to call him an inconsistent defender rather than a **** one.

Inconsistency is a sign of a poor defender, defense is mostly effort and intelligence with dash of athleticism. It should be one of the more consistent aspects of your game if you care enough about it OR are smart enough at understanding basic principles.

Imagine if we had a guy who averaged 15PPG on horrendous efficiency but lets say he had wildly inconsistent streaks of efficiency. Would you really think that guy was a good offensive player because he would have games that showcase it?

Kyrie played well enough his only healthy RS and played ****** last year. Then in the playoffs I saw what I would best describe as reasonable effort. So I disagree entirely with him playing "well" defensively.

Chronz
07-19-2016, 03:11 PM
Oh I know his flaws, I just think sometimes they're exaggerated/focused on far more than his actual talent.
Maybe but I try to base it on who we're comparing him to and the kind of standard placed upon him.


Obviously he's capable of being a better defender (as he does in the playoffs), so like you said why don't he do it in the regular season? Perhaps as a Cavs fan I don't care much about that right now since we're most likely a lock for the #1 seed and the only way we won't be the favorites in the East is if we get injured.

Why have Kyrie, who has had injuries issues, play all-out 150% in the 82-game regular season when the team is likely to be a #1 seed anyway? Perhaps that's why Lowry is always semi-banged up in the playoffs? I watch the man all the time and see when he's engaged, he defends surprisingly well.

I've seen guys coast and play fundamental defense, with Kyries decent quickness, he should be able to sleep walk into recognizing proper transition balance. And this is all still part of his legacy, a young Kyrie has to coast defensively and doesn't really have to try to get the #1 seed, its something I agree with you on. Its an important distinction that Kyrie makes his team worse defensively last year whereas other guys like Lowry MUST carry the burden year round. If Kyle had Bron, he'd prolly coast more offensively than defensively. I remember when he was on the Rockets, dude was an elite defensive PG when he didn't have to run the offense. I cant see Kyrie reigning in his offense and becoming a 2-way leader at this stage in his career. Kobe had a few years where he was elite on both ends, hopefully hes advising him there.


Until LeBron returned, Kyrie became a better defender each year in the league (based on DBPM numbers). His first year he was absolutely terrible on that end, but Byron Scott was pretty vocal about trying to get Kyrie to focus on that end.

If there were any improvements, they were very incremental and I remember hearing podcasts from several insiders that alluded to Scott AND Brown losing their job in part due to the lack of defensive commitment from Kyrie.


At the end of the day, his defense is inconsistent and his pass/shot selection can be suspect. That's all it is IMO.

His offense is fine as far as Im concerned, everyone can improve but I dont see an average defender here. The standards are pretty high, him upping his defense in the playoffs while getting so much rest isn't something to brag about. Im sure plenty of PG's could outpace him defensively with such a luxury.



I mentioned mid range because generally players show more aggression to get that mid-range shot off.
I see, well alot of those guys aren't really all that aggressive when shooting those jumpers, they are simply outlet J's. Its why when you dissect the numbers you see how much better of a shooter from midrange Dirk is vs Bosh despite the same %'s. Dirk creates more of his own and faces higher defensive attention.
Strictly statistically speaking, Bosh has an eFG% of 58.7 when WIDE Open vs Dirk shooting 61.2. As the defenders inch closer the numbers are as follows, 46.6% vs 52.5%, when closely guarded Bosh falls to 39.1% vs 42.4 for Dirk. Bosh almost never takes fully contested jumpers but Dirk has to take a few every now and then and he shot a ridiculous


All that aside, its simply unfathomable that you didn't include the best midrange scorer in the game.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/monster-of-the-midrange-dont-sleep-on-chris-pauls-deadly-elbow-jumper/
This is a great Grantland article on CP3 from the 2015 season that paints him as the best mid range shooter in the game but I suppose hes declined in the year since, although I certainly havent noticed it much with the eye test.



NBA.com has "Pull-Up Jumpers" if you really want to measure aggression with the shot.

Curry is in a league all his own because of his 3's but CP3 is behind him. CP3 is 2nd in PTS off the dribble and behind only Curry and Durant in terms of the efficiency of those buckets.

By my definition, CP3 creates his own mid range shot more than everyone you mentioned save for Curry. He does it differently than Kyrie but its undoubtedly more productive.

Vee-Rex
07-19-2016, 03:19 PM
Durant actually has a history of playing great defense, this isn't some one year fluke rather a view at his peak potential. Durant has been a great defender who went DPOY against GS, Kyrie went from **** to below average IMO.

I disagree. At best, Durant has established himself as an average defender in his career. What makes you think he has been playing great defense? Also, he went to DPOY against GS versus who? Draymond? Klay? While Klay is good, these aren't really the premier offensive players in the league here. I want to see Durant go DPOY against the top offensive players in LeBron or Steph or CP3 or Harden, etc...

Now if we talk about team defense... the Thunder played good team defense and Durant was part of it, but really, how good was it? GS averaged 106ppg versus the Thunder and only 99ppg versus the Cavs, and even if you account for pace, GS still had a higher offensive rating versus the Thunder than they did versus the Cavs (more PPP against the Thunder).

Get this:

Versus Thunder: Only 38% (which is still a lot) of GS's FGAs were 3-pointers. Klay averaged 10 3PA per game, Steph at 11 3PA per game.

Versus Cavs: a whopping 44% of GS's FGAs were 3-pointers, yet Klay only averaged 8.6 3PA and Steph was still at 11.4 3PA per game

Cleveland had a game-plan that was okay with allowing players other than Klay and Steph fire away from beyond the arc.

So that begs the question.... how much better WAS the Thunder's team defense than the Cavs, given the above facts?

The problem is that everyone ignores matchups here. I saw a ton of great defensive plays by the Thunder (including Durant), and they didn't seem to give away as many easy baskets as the Cavs did in games 1 and 2 of the finals. However, that doesn't tell the whole story. The Thunder's length matched up well with GS's pass-heavy offense, which caused a great number of turnovers and skewed people into believing that they (including Durant) were some DPOY juggernauts on defense.

They weren't. They just had some super impressive stretches where they were.

Edit: I suppose my overall point is, what offensive juggernaut did Durant guard to allow us to assume he's an elite one-on-one defender now, and his contributions to team defense was obviously not as great as we would like to believe (certainly not better than LeBron's for the Cavs).

Hawkeye15
07-19-2016, 03:21 PM
I love how everyone wants to view Durant as some kind of great/elite defender now because of a handful of games in the playoffs, but when Kyrie plays well defensively for an entire playoffs against talented PGs (Jackson/Teague/Lowry/Curry) he's still a **** defender.

Edit: I'm not gonna call Kyrie great/elite by any means, but I think at this point it's a fair argument to call him an inconsistent defender rather than a **** one.

Durant became a plus defender around year 3. Kyrie did play respectable defense to close the finals, but he needs to roll that over to the regular season now. He is young enough that he can expend that energy game in, game out. Over the course of 100 games last year, he was putrid in the big picture. But, he is young, and just got a taste of what it takes to truly be great. Not just sometimes, but all the time.

Vee-Rex
07-19-2016, 03:42 PM
Maybe but I try to base it on who we're comparing him to and the kind of standard placed upon him.


I've seen guys coast and play fundamental defense, with Kyries decent quickness, he should be able to sleep walk into recognizing proper transition balance. And this is all still part of his legacy, a young Kyrie has to coast defensively and doesn't really have to try to get the #1 seed, its something I agree with you on. Its an important distinction that Kyrie makes his team worse defensively last year whereas other guys like Lowry MUST carry the burden year round. If Kyle had Bron, he'd prolly coast more offensively than defensively. I remember when he was on the Rockets, dude was an elite defensive PG when he didn't have to run the offense. I cant see Kyrie reigning in his offense and becoming a 2-way leader at this stage in his career. Kobe had a few years where he was elite on both ends, hopefully hes advising him there.


Can't dispute this. I feel like I could [insert excuse] here but ultimately that can be done for just about anyone. It's on Kyrie to show he can be an average defender regularly.




If there were any improvements, they were very incremental and I remember hearing podcasts from several insiders that alluded to Scott AND Brown losing their job in part due to the lack of defensive commitment from Kyrie.


You're right, that was a big part of the reason Byron Scott lost his job. He couldn't get Kyrie nor the team to play defense. Unfortunately for Scott the team only had Kyrie and no other real talent. That's why Mike Brown was brought in. But he got fired because he just sucks badly, especially his offensive system (which is why David Blatt was brought in).




All that aside, its simply unfathomable that you didn't include the best midrange scorer in the game.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/monster-of-the-midrange-dont-sleep-on-chris-pauls-deadly-elbow-jumper/
This is a great Grantland article on CP3 from the 2015 season that paints him as the best mid range shooter in the game but I suppose hes declined in the year since, although I certainly havent noticed it much with the eye test.



NBA.com has "Pull-Up Jumpers" if you really want to measure aggression with the shot.

Curry is in a league all his own because of his 3's but CP3 is behind him. CP3 is 2nd in PTS off the dribble and behind only Curry and Durant in terms of the efficiency of those buckets.

By my definition, CP3 creates his own mid range shot more than everyone you mentioned save for Curry. He does it differently than Kyrie but its undoubtedly more productive.

Kyrie creates his own mid-range shot just as much CP3 IMO, so I'm hoping Kyrie has actually improved a bit with that as opposed to simply having a good year. We'll need at least another year to see, so until then I still consider CP3 the best mid-range shooter too. One year where Kyrie + Durant did better doesn't say much.

Chronz
07-19-2016, 04:27 PM
I disagree. At best, Durant has established himself as an average defender in his career. What makes you think he has been playing great defense?
Might have something to do with his pterodactyl arms, improved rebounding, strength and rim protection. Hes the most agile/nimble 7 footer in the league man. He was basically his teams Draymond Green vs the Dubs, its scary what those 2 will do next year. How many guys can protect the rim and cause effectively check Curry on ther perimeter? Hes the only guy who can cover as much ground as he does IMO. He doesn't have to try as hard to be a great defender but when he locks in, hes elite.

In the series vs LAL, Harden/Thabo were the guys guarding Kobe but come 4th quarter, it was KD who got the call and I remember him doing a great job then.

Heres a quote from Spo:
"He's a multipositional defender now, impacting the game on both sides of the court," Spoelstra said. "Somebody of his length and knowledge and experience, it was a matter of time."

That sounds like someone whos is better than a mediocre defender "at best" to me.



Also, he went to DPOY against GS versus who? Draymond? Klay? While Klay is good, these aren't really the premier offensive players in the league here. I want to see Durant go DPOY against the top offensive players in LeBron or Steph or CP3 or Harden, etc...

Umm he WAS checking Steph. OKC basically laid out the blueprint for Cleveland in how to switch everything. The Curry-Draymond PnR is the leagues most deadliest play given their shooters and Durant flummoxed it. The Dubs ran it less when KD was on Green as opposed to when Green was defended by a big. By simplifying defense down to just a counterpart it ignores the entire point of his assignment. KD was guarding Green in order to effectively diminish Curry. His length definitely bothered GS shooters.


Now if we talk about team defense... the Thunder played good team defense and Durant was part of it, but really, how good was it? GS averaged 106ppg versus the Thunder and only 99ppg versus the Cavs, and even if you account for pace, GS still had a higher offensive rating versus the Thunder than they did versus the Cavs (more PPP against the Thunder).

Curry injured himself to end the series, Im sure that played something of a role, as did Greens suspension. Cavs and Thunder are pretty comparable defensively, although I admit that OKC is underachieving given their talent whereas the Cavs overachieved despite multiple bad defenders on the squad.

Still, how do we separate KD's contributions from those numbers?





Get this:

Versus Thunder: Only 38% (which is still a lot) of GS's FGAs were 3-pointers. Klay averaged 10 3PA per game, Steph at 11 3PA per game.

Versus Cavs: a whopping 44% of GS's FGAs were 3-pointers, yet Klay only averaged 8.6 3PA and Steph was still at 11 3PA per game

Cleveland had a game-plan that was okay with allowing players other than Klay and Steph fire away from beyond the arc.

So that begs the question.... how much better WAS the Thunder's team defense than the Cavs, given the above facts?

The problem is that everyone ignores matchups here. I saw a ton of great defensive plays by the Thunder (including Durant), and they didn't seem to give away as many easy baskets as the Cavs did in games 1 and 2 of the finals. However, that doesn't tell the whole story. The Thunder's length matched up well with GS's pass-heavy offense, which caused a great number of turnovers and skewed people into believing that they (including Durant) were some DPOY juggernauts on defense.

They weren't. They just had some super impressive stretches where they were.

Edit: I suppose my overall point is, what offensive juggernaut did Durant guard to allow us to assume he's an elite one-on-one defender now, and his contributions to team defense was obviously not as great as we would like to believe (certainly not better than LeBron's for the Cavs).


I dont know if hes on a motivated Brons level but its really close IMO.



Here are some old articles on the matter:
(This one directly compares Heat Bron vs KD)
http://dailythunder.com/2014/01/durant-the-defender-and-closing-the-gap-on-lebron/

Some PSD members kept track of a few synergy numbers from those days and I recall KD always grading fairly.

Chronz
07-19-2016, 05:07 PM
Kyrie creates his own mid-range shot just as much CP3 IMO
Then whats with the higher assisted% and inferior off the dribble production?

This might depend on how you define a mid range shot or how you define create your own. By my measures, CP3 easily outclassed Kyrie as an off the dribble shot creator but I suppose depending on how we narrow down the zones on the floor that Kyrie could stand out.



so I'm hoping Kyrie has actually improved a bit with that as opposed to simply having a good year. We'll need at least another year to see, so until then I still consider CP3 the best mid-range shooter too. One year where Kyrie + Durant did better doesn't say much.
KD yes but I really dont see how Kyrie did better when hes less productive off the bounce. CP3 was both more prolific and efficient with his off the dribble game. Thats literally the one aspect that completely sets up the rest of his game. Hes basically Steph Curry from mid range with how he warps defenses and he knows how to create space with the threat of the pass.


Looking at BBR
CP3 shot 52.7% from 10-16ft and 43.7% from 16ft to the 3pt line
Compared to 50% and 46% respectively for Kyrie.

Adding up those 2 zones you get .472 for CP3 vs .479 for Kyrie with CP3 being much more dangerous from 3ft-10ft (.514 vs .396) and I prolly would consider a good chunk of those as midrange shots though Im sure many were "in-betweeners"

CP3 was assisted less on those jumpers than Kyrie yet posted a similar% with more attempts.

Given these facts, I suppose we can say they are similarly dangerous from mid range but I think CP3's advantage in the in between game and off the bounce game attracts more attention from defenses. Thus I give him the nod. I only wonder what he could accomplish if he just stopped giving a **** defensively.

Vee-Rex
07-20-2016, 12:22 PM
Might have something to do with his pterodactyl arms, improved rebounding, strength and rim protection. Hes the most agile/nimble 7 footer in the league man. He was basically his teams Draymond Green vs the Dubs, its scary what those 2 will do next year. How many guys can protect the rim and cause effectively check Curry on ther perimeter? Hes the only guy who can cover as much ground as he does IMO. He doesn't have to try as hard to be a great defender but when he locks in, hes elite.

In the series vs LAL, Harden/Thabo were the guys guarding Kobe but come 4th quarter, it was KD who got the call and I remember him doing a great job then.

Heres a quote from Spo:
"He's a multipositional defender now, impacting the game on both sides of the court," Spoelstra said. "Somebody of his length and knowledge and experience, it was a matter of time."

That sounds like someone whos is better than a mediocre defender "at best" to me.



When you say "Elite" that implies he's in the same category as Kawhi, Iggy, Butler, George, etc...

Pretty much everyone improves when they "lock in", but that doesn't mean that they're suddenly at that "enhanced" level (or else Kyrie would be an average defender [he's a +defender in the playoffs for the last 2 seasons]). I can give you a ton of scenarios and moments when he has defended well against big time players (Curry and Paul as examples), but that's the outlier, not the norm.

You're also essentially hyping up the physical attributes of Durant which doesn't automatically mean he can potentially be a great/elite defender, especially if you ignore the fact that he's basically a twig and would get killed at the 4 against similar-sized big men. Then you're using the 'good' physical attributes and supporting it by the outlier moments in which he improves his defense. This is the double standard I'm talking about here, because you clearly wouldn't call Irving an average/below-average defender (instead calling him a **** defender) despite his outlier moments.

According to you:

Durant: Above-average defender ---- ascends to great/elite during specific scenarios = he's a great/elite defender

Irving: **** defender ----- ascends to below-average during specific scenarios = he's still a **** defender

See the double standard?




Umm he WAS checking Steph. OKC basically laid out the blueprint for Cleveland in how to switch everything. The Curry-Draymond PnR is the leagues most deadliest play given their shooters and Durant flummoxed it. The Dubs ran it less when KD was on Green as opposed to when Green was defended by a big. By simplifying defense down to just a counterpart it ignores the entire point of his assignment. KD was guarding Green in order to effectively diminish Curry. His length definitely bothered GS shooters.



For one, OKC didn't lay out any blueprint for Cleveland. The Spurs this year were the ones that laid out a 'blueprint' for switching. And two, the Cavs didn't have the athletic, lengthy defenders nor the BBIQ on defense to disrupt the offense of GS in the same way the Thunder did. We switched constantly games 1 and 2 and got annihilated, and afterwards went more to a hybrid of trapping and switching on the ball-handler, and a hybrid of switching/man-to-man on the back screens.



I dont know if hes on a motivated Brons level but its really close IMO.



Here are some old articles on the matter:
(This one directly compares Heat Bron vs KD)
http://dailythunder.com/2014/01/durant-the-defender-and-closing-the-gap-on-lebron/

Some PSD members kept track of a few synergy numbers from those days and I recall KD always grading fairly.

Eh, I disagree to be honest. LeBron can guard 1-5, Durant cannot. Durant gets abused on any competent big men that aren't undersized. LeBron is also a smarter defender.

Durant isn't miles away but he's also not really close, IMO.

Vee-Rex
07-20-2016, 12:37 PM
Then whats with the higher assisted% and inferior off the dribble production?

This might depend on how you define a mid range shot or how you define create your own. By my measures, CP3 easily outclassed Kyrie as an off the dribble shot creator but I suppose depending on how we narrow down the zones on the floor that Kyrie could stand out.


I'd say it's definitely by how I define mid-range. I can honestly say that Kyrie pretty much NEVER receives a pass for a wide-open mid-range shot. You'd just have to take my word for that. The higher assisted% is directly because LeBron is also ball-dominant and so some of Kyrie's mid-range shots are assisted even though he catches, pump-fakes, dribble around and shoot.




KD yes but I really dont see how Kyrie did better when hes less productive off the bounce. CP3 was both more prolific and efficient with his off the dribble game. Thats literally the one aspect that completely sets up the rest of his game. Hes basically Steph Curry from mid range with how he warps defenses and he knows how to create space with the threat of the pass.


Looking at BBR
CP3 shot 52.7% from 10-16ft and 43.7% from 16ft to the 3pt line
Compared to 50% and 46% respectively for Kyrie.

Adding up those 2 zones you get .472 for CP3 vs .479 for Kyrie with CP3 being much more dangerous from 3ft-10ft (.514 vs .396) and I prolly would consider a good chunk of those as midrange shots though Im sure many were "in-betweeners"

CP3 was assisted less on those jumpers than Kyrie yet posted a similar% with more attempts.

Given these facts, I suppose we can say they are similarly dangerous from mid range but I think CP3's advantage in the in between game and off the bounce game attracts more attention from defenses. Thus I give him the nod. I only wonder what he could accomplish if he just stopped giving a **** defensively.

Chris Paul is definitely better at creating space. He makes the best choices with the ball, including the PnR. If the defense switches, Paul can get a high-percentage mid-range shot. If the PG trails and the big man drops back, he can dive in the lane and get a floater. If the PG plays underneath, Paul can get the open shot.

Everyone knows how to attack the defense, but Paul is a mastermind because he generally makes the right choice at full speed.

Kyrie's mid-range generally comes off breaking down the defender in ISO situations. Sometimes it's the PnR where he'll pull the jumper with the defender playing over the pick and trailing, but he doesn't orchestrate the offense half as good as Paul, and he's not nearly as big of a threat at passing. These factors allow Paul to get more space.

IMO, the fact that Kyrie was able to shoot such a higher percentage at mid-range (without having the skills of CP3 or the length of Durant) shows how incredibly talented he is at knocking down shots, contested or not. But again, I do agree that Paul is the better mid-range shooter.