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View Full Version : Who has been the best Rookie in Summer league? Who wins Rookie of the year?



IKnowHoops
07-15-2016, 01:23 AM
I haven't seen enough of everyone else, but I have really liked what I've seen from Dunn and Simmons. Those are my two favorites for Rookie of the year. Would be pretty nice for the T wolves to have 3 consecutive Rookie of the years.

Ive watched Felder a few times and I like him. I think he will be a strong backup for the Cavs...great addition for them. I don't see him in the running for rookie of the year though.

Would love to hear what other people think about what they have seen in summer league so far and who is your rookie of the year.

I'm gonna go with 1. Simmons 2. Dunn

If Ricky Rubio gets traded before the season starts, then I am going to go with Dunn for rookie of the year.

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 02:16 AM
Remember when I was laughed at in the draft thread for saying Dunn was going to be better than every PG in this draft and will be a beast?

Dunn/Simmons/Embiid... Any of these 3 in my opinion will win rookie of the year... Ingram will need a year or 2

lol, please
07-15-2016, 02:38 AM
Remember when I was laughed at in the draft thread for saying Dunn was going to be better than every PG in this draft and will be a beast?

Dunn/Simmons/Embiid... Any of these 3 in my opinion will win rookie of the year... Ingram will need a year or 2
I agree with you here.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

FlashBolt
07-15-2016, 02:51 AM
Remember when I was laughed at in the draft thread for saying Dunn was going to be better than every PG in this draft and will be a beast?

Dunn/Simmons/Embiid... Any of these 3 in my opinion will win rookie of the year... Ingram will need a year or 2

I understand Ingram/Simmons but Celtics/Suns are going to be regretting this down the line..

IKnowHoops
07-15-2016, 03:38 AM
I understand Ingram/Simmons but Celtics/Suns are going to be regretting this down the line..

You don't like the Suns picks? I actually love Chriss and Bender is tall as heck and he's pretty mobile. I think he has good potential. I think the Suns got two guys that will be good starters in the league with all star potential.

IKnowHoops
07-15-2016, 03:41 AM
Remember when I was laughed at in the draft thread for saying Dunn was going to be better than every PG in this draft and will be a beast?

Dunn/Simmons/Embiid... Any of these 3 in my opinion will win rookie of the year... Ingram will need a year or 2

Yeah I definitely would not of laughed at you for that. Dunn is going to be a beast IMO. Like a can't miss.

PhillyFaninLA
07-15-2016, 05:43 AM
Remember when I was laughed at in the draft thread for saying Dunn was going to be better than every PG in this draft and will be a beast?

Dunn/Simmons/Embiid... Any of these 3 in my opinion will win rookie of the year... Ingram will need a year or 2

I'l like to add Saric...I don't think its impossible we have 3 candidates this year....we are going into next year with Simmons, Saric, and Embiid on the court.

FraziersKnicks
07-15-2016, 07:33 AM
I think it'll be Dunn. Assuming that Rubio gets traded, Dunn will be the starting PG. He's the most NBA ready guy in this draft and his team will be a lot more competitive than the Lakers/Sixers so I see him getting votes over Simmons/Ingram for that reason.

I think Jamal Murray is a dark horse. He's gonna have a lot of opportunities to put numbers on the board in the uptempo Nuggets offense. Could have a similar year to Devin Booker's 2nd half of last season.

SeoulBeatz
07-15-2016, 07:46 AM
Simmons, Dunn, Ingram, and Brown are on my list.

Dunn surprised me with how poised he was in sl. Brown showed that he might not have been such a reach for the Celtics, he's an aggressive beast on the offensive end, just needs to keep his game under control at times. Ingram didn't have the best summer league, but he has a natural scoring touch, and points are really all that matters in ROY voting so he should be in contention. Simmons showed his great all around game and will be our number 1 option from the get-go ,so he'll have plenty of opportunities to stuff the stat sheet.

DanG
07-15-2016, 09:12 AM
1. Simmons
2. Dunn

I don't really see anyone else. Ingram takes time... Embiid will probably take it slow in the start.

Tony_Starks
07-15-2016, 09:18 AM
Dunn is no joke. Swag of a inner city street baller with the poise of a vet.

His demeanor reminds me a lot of D Lillard.

warfelg
07-15-2016, 09:26 AM
Only issue I think Dunn might end up having is players in front of him and his coach.

Tony_Starks
07-15-2016, 09:50 AM
Zubac!!

Chronz
07-15-2016, 11:38 AM
Been enjoying the Laker games but pretty disappointed in Ingram overall. Hes shown flashes of effortless scoring and hes not getting punked despite his stature but hes been wildly inconsistent.

Jaylen Brown looks like a brick and he shoots them too. He looks like he should be an NBA player but kind of reminds me of Jeff Green abit. Boston looks like a mess of a team and they have the most players with actual NBA contracts.

More than anything, these are glorified scrimmages and with no real preparation, guard play is of the utmost importance so I've been impressed with the poise of some of these kids. D'Angelo is acting like he should, like hes too good to play beneath himself here, dominating all these lesser beings. Booker has been the same for the Suns and you can really tell how comfortable he is playing alongside this Ulis kid who has a ridiculous pure point rating to go with high steals. Hes basically never costing his team possessions and is adding more. Someone posted a stat that hes the only PG from this draft with more assist than turnovers and while its impressive, I dont know how well this will translate to the pros. Usually I want my rookies to have more turnovers if it comes with more aggression but we'll see, maybe hes just that smart and it will translate over.
Phoenix has had the best team in Vegas when they've cared enough to play Booker.

Dunn has been great (so has that other PG on his team) but hes 24 so he should be dominating, Trey Lyles and that Powell guy are basically grown men compared to most of the kids they've played against.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2016, 11:38 AM
Dunn is no joke. Swag of a inner city street baller with the poise of a vet.

His demeanor reminds me a lot of D Lillard.

Don't like the Lillard comparison at all. Totally different game. Dunn reminds me way more of John Wall

But, the Wolves would be insane to trade Rubio to hand the keys over to a rookie PG who can't shoot and is very turnover prone. Dunn could be very good in time, but he needs to be eased into it, the Wolves are not in the rebuild mode anymore, they are actually going to try and win as much as possible. Rubio gives them that, at a very cheap deal compared to the market for a good starting PG. If Dunn works out, you trade Rubio in the next 2 years.

TheDish87
07-15-2016, 11:40 AM
I think it'll be Dunn. Assuming that Rubio gets traded, Dunn will be the starting PG. He's the most NBA ready guy in this draft and his team will be a lot more competitive than the Lakers/Sixers so I see him getting votes over Simmons/Ingram for that reason.

I think Jamal Murray is a dark horse. He's gonna have a lot of opportunities to put numbers on the board in the uptempo Nuggets offense. Could have a similar year to Devin Booker's 2nd half of last season.

team record has nothing to do with ROY. I love Dunn, still want to trade for him, but hes gonna have a hard time winning ROY playing behind Towns and Wiggins and maybe even to a lesser extent Lavine and it will be even harder if Rubio stays. I expect him to make the rookie first team though. I would say Heild is the runner up to Simmons.

ROY first team: Simmons, Heild, Dunn, Embiid, Chriss
2nd team: Ingram, Murray, Bembry, Ellison, Valentine

Chronz
07-15-2016, 11:42 AM
PS Hield has sucked outside 1 quarter. I was kind of talking myself into him being Kobe-lite but Kobe as a teen was commanding double teams in the Summer League. Hield just looks like a taller Eddie House.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2016, 11:42 AM
Been enjoying the Laker games but pretty disappointed in Ingram overall. Hes shown flashes of effortless scoring and hes not getting punked despite his stature but hes been wildly inconsistent.

Jaylen Brown looks like a brick and he shoots them too. He looks like he should be an NBA player but kind of reminds me of Jeff Green abit. Boston looks like a mess of a team and they have the most players with actual NBA contracts.

More than anything, these are glorified scrimmages and with no real preparation, guard play is of the utmost importance so I've been impressed with the poise of some of these kids. D'Angelo is acting like he should, like hes too good to play beneath himself here, dominating all these lesser beings. Booker has been the same for the Suns and you can really tell how comfortable he is playing alongside this Ulis kid who has a ridiculous pure point rating to go with high steals. Hes basically never costing his team possessions and is adding more. Someone posted a stat that hes the only PG from this draft with more assist than turnovers and while its impressive, I dont know how well this will translate to the pros. Usually I want my rookies to have more turnovers if it comes with more aggression but we'll see, maybe hes just that smart and it will translate over.
Phoenix has had the best team in Vegas when they've cared enough to play Booker.

Dunn has been great (so has that other PG on his team) but hes 24 so he should be dominating, Trey Lyles and that Powell guy are basically grown men compared to most of the kids they've played against.

Dunn is 22. But yeah, he is physically mature for a rookie, for sure. Watching Adrien Payne was very "payneful". Dude, just go away

Stunner
07-15-2016, 11:47 AM
Dunn / Ulis / Maker / Hield / Brown /Simmons / Ingram / Felder / Diallo / McCaw

SeoulBeatz
07-15-2016, 12:05 PM
Oh yeah, Denzel Valentine is another guy who has impressed me. Granted, he hasn't shot the ball particularly well, but he passes the eye test and plays like a vet already.
I wanted the Sixer's to pick him with our later picks because of him slipping due to GM's worrying about his lack of athleticism.

Every damn scouting report I read said he's too unathletic to make an impact. "Too slow to play the wing at the next level".

But all the game tape from college and his play in the summer league has proven otherwise. He didn't seem slow at all and seems to be able to keep up with players just fine.

I swear scouts are dumb as hell sometimes and get waaaay too caught up in measurables/athletic ability. The guy can flat out play.

hugepatsfan
07-15-2016, 12:11 PM
Simmons, Dunn, Ingram, and Brown are on my list.

Dunn surprised me with how poised he was in sl. Brown showed that he might not have been such a reach for the Celtics, he's an aggressive beast on the offensive end, just needs to keep his game under control at times. Ingram didn't have the best summer league, but he has a natural scoring touch, and points are really all that matters in ROY voting so he should be in contention. Simmons showed his great all around game and will be our number 1 option from the get-go ,so he'll have plenty of opportunities to stuff the stat sheet.

I give Brown a 0.01% shot of ROTY and that's a stretch even. He's a project player at 19 and he's not the phenom talent that Ingram or especially Simmons is. I'm generally pleased with what I've seen but that's in the context of recognizing he's a project player. My expectations for him this year are to play somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes per game. He'll show flashes but probably not look too great on the stat sheet.

Tony_Starks
07-15-2016, 12:13 PM
Don't like the Lillard comparison at all. Totally different game. Dunn reminds me way more of John Wall

But, the Wolves would be insane to trade Rubio to hand the keys over to a rookie PG who can't shoot and is very turnover prone. Dunn could be very good in time, but he needs to be eased into it, the Wolves are not in the rebuild mode anymore, they are actually going to try and win as much as possible. Rubio gives them that, at a very cheap deal compared to the market for a good starting PG. If Dunn works out, you trade Rubio in the next 2 years.

I don't mean his game I meant his mentality.

Dame comes from Oakland and has that chip on his shoulder, not afraid of anything approach to the game.

Dunn has a similar story, came from a pretty tough situation. He's fearless on the court.

SeoulBeatz
07-15-2016, 12:17 PM
I give Brown a 0.01% shot of ROTY and that's a stretch even. He's a project player at 19 and he's not the phenom talent that Ingram or especially Simmons is. I'm generally pleased with what I've seen but that's in the context of recognizing he's a project player. My expectations for him this year are to play somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes per game. He'll show flashes but probably not look too great on the stat sheet.

Thanks for the info. Yeah honestly I only watched 2 games of his this summer league, but against the Sixers he looked impressive. Might get called for a bunch of offensive fouls with how he bullrushes into the paint but overall he seems to have a nice foundation to build upon. NBA-ready body, good form on his jumper, great athletic ability, and he's a smart kid/hardworker.

BKLYNpigeon
07-15-2016, 12:38 PM
summer league doesn't mean anything. Marco Bellinelli lit up Summer league and Anthony Morrow had 45 points once and both are just role players.

Dunn will end up being ROY. He's surrounded buy a good team and coach.

BKLYNpigeon
07-15-2016, 12:41 PM
2nd round pick Patrick Mccaw of the Warriors has some game.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2016, 02:17 PM
I don't mean his game I meant his mentality.

Dame comes from Oakland and has that chip on his shoulder, not afraid of anything approach to the game.

Dunn has a similar story, came from a pretty tough situation. He's fearless on the court.

ahh, ok. I agree with that I suppose, need to see what Dunn becomes. But he is strong as an ox, and attacks with intent to inflict physical punishment for getting in his way. I think he will be turnover and foul prone in year 1, but learning under Rubio for 1-2 years is probably a great thing for him.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2016, 02:20 PM
summer league doesn't mean anything. Marco Bellinelli lit up Summer league and Anthony Morrow had 45 points once and both are just role players.

Dunn will end up being ROY. He's surrounded buy a good team and coach.

Jonny Flynn looked good in the summer league. It's meant to show off ball handling guards, they never have any real time to incorporate set plays, so bigs get left to dry.

Dunn will not get enough playing time imo, to challenge.

warfelg
07-15-2016, 02:43 PM
Jonny Flynn looked good in the summer league. It's meant to show off ball handling guards, they never have any real time to incorporate set plays, so bigs get left to dry.

Dunn will not get enough playing time imo, to challenge.

Pretty much my position.

CHANGO
07-15-2016, 07:03 PM
I like Dunn's game a lot, he seems like the STEAL of the draft so far.

Supreme LA
07-15-2016, 07:54 PM
Been enjoying the Laker games but pretty disappointed in Ingram overall. Hes shown flashes of effortless scoring and hes not getting punked despite his stature but hes been wildly inconsistent.

Jaylen Brown looks like a brick and he shoots them too. He looks like he should be an NBA player but kind of reminds me of Jeff Green abit. Boston looks like a mess of a team and they have the most players with actual NBA contracts.

More than anything, these are glorified scrimmages and with no real preparation, guard play is of the utmost importance so I've been impressed with the poise of some of these kids. D'Angelo is acting like he should, like hes too good to play beneath himself here, dominating all these lesser beings. Booker has been the same for the Suns and you can really tell how comfortable he is playing alongside this Ulis kid who has a ridiculous pure point rating to go with high steals. Hes basically never costing his team possessions and is adding more. Someone posted a stat that hes the only PG from this draft with more assist than turnovers and while its impressive, I dont know how well this will translate to the pros. Usually I want my rookies to have more turnovers if it comes with more aggression but we'll see, maybe hes just that smart and it will translate over.
Phoenix has had the best team in Vegas when they've cared enough to play Booker.

Dunn has been great (so has that other PG on his team) but hes 24 so he should be dominating, Trey Lyles and that Powell guy are basically grown men compared to most of the kids they've played against.

I've watched almost every laker summer league game live in person and I put more fault on Russel for Ingram's lack of touches and rhythm. Ingram hasn't really been able to showcase himself and hopefully that changed.

warfelg
07-15-2016, 08:30 PM
I've watched almost every laker summer league game live in person and I put more fault on Russel for Ingram's lack of touches and rhythm. Ingram hasn't really been able to showcase himself and hopefully that changed.

I think it might be a flaw in the Lakers.

They might need a PG who can pass the ball and set up the offense for DLo, Ingram, and Randle. Maybe they should be making a move for a guy like Rubio. I think bringing him in, and sliding DLo to the 2, Clarkson off the bench with Nance Jr would make the team much better.

Rubio
DLo
Ingram
Randle
Mozgov

tp13baby
07-15-2016, 09:13 PM
I think it might be a flaw in the Lakers.

They might need a PG who can pass the ball and set up the offense for DLo, Ingram, and Randle. Maybe they should be making a move for a guy like Rubio. I think bringing him in, and sliding DLo to the 2, Clarkson off the bench with Nance Jr would make the team much better.

Rubio
DLo
Ingram
Randle
Mozgov

I think Nance will be the best out of your bigs. I love his game, his mobility, tenacity, and ball skills.

Dunn though has been unreal. He broke Sampsons legs in the first game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZm9ywqB-_0

warfelg
07-15-2016, 09:19 PM
I think Nance will be the best out of your bigs. I love his game, his mobility, tenacity, and ball skills.

Dunn though has been unreal. He broke Sampsons legs in the first game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZm9ywqB-_0

Not a Laker fan at all. Got my own issues with Noel/Embiid/Okafor problem.

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 09:20 PM
Dunn is no joke. Swag of a inner city street baller with the poise of a vet.

His demeanor reminds me a lot of D Lillard.

I follow alot of these guys and always have.... There are 2 players whom I loved and thought had a kobe like work ethic... Porz/Dunn... Dunn might have the best work ethic and most fire I have ever seen... He has the kobe like work ethic and the Draymond like demeanor where he wants to put everyone over his knee and laugh about it... These 2 things will promise he is a star.

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 09:22 PM
I give Brown a 0.01% shot of ROTY and that's a stretch even. He's a project player at 19 and he's not the phenom talent that Ingram or especially Simmons is. I'm generally pleased with what I've seen but that's in the context of recognizing he's a project player. My expectations for him this year are to play somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes per game. He'll show flashes but probably not look too great on the stat sheet.

I hate him but what he has done in terms of his aggressiveness in summer league Id give it a high chance than that because I think he is gonna prove things to people. I still think him and simmons have the highest bust potential but Brown like Simmons is showing alot in this summer league... He is attacking like harden but actually plays defense

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 09:24 PM
The lakers Zub/Dunn/Simmons/Brown have impressed me the most this summer league... I do not like bender at all.

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 09:25 PM
I've watched almost every laker summer league game live in person and I put more fault on Russel for Ingram's lack of touches and rhythm. Ingram hasn't really been able to showcase himself and hopefully that changed.

He isnt passing like at all... I said it in your forum and nobody loves Russ more than me but he just refuses to pass. Ingram was open quite a bit and he has ignored him.

More-Than-Most
07-15-2016, 09:26 PM
I think it might be a flaw in the Lakers.

They might need a PG who can pass the ball and set up the offense for DLo, Ingram, and Randle. Maybe they should be making a move for a guy like Rubio. I think bringing him in, and sliding DLo to the 2, Clarkson off the bench with Nance Jr would make the team much better.

Rubio
DLo
Ingram
Randle
Mozgov

I had russ as the next magic so it would be hard for me to not have him at the PG position but how he is playing this would help them alot.

warfelg
07-15-2016, 09:29 PM
I had russ as the next magic so it would be hard for me to not have him at the PG position but how he is playing this would help them alot.

Well I said it in the Sixers forum a few times.

Russell has just a hair too much of the Swaggy P/Lou Will gunner in him to really hit that ceiling. And I think playing with those two are going to forever stunt him a little from being the passer he could be.

Lakers + Giants
07-16-2016, 04:23 AM
I hate to be a homer, but I think we might have gotten a steal for the 3rd straight year in a row. Ivica Zubac looks legit. It is summer league, but I've loved what I've seen so far.

jimm120
07-16-2016, 04:34 AM
Not a Laker fan at all. Got my own issues with Noel/Embiid/Okafor problem.

lol.

Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Saric, and SImmons

where the hell are they gonna play all of these guys?

Noel is a proven 30 minutes a game player that plays great defense and passable offense.
Okafor is a proven 30 minutes a game player that has a great scoring touch.
Simmons is a passing big man that will get 25+ minutes a game being the 1st pick.
Saric has been raved about for a long time.
Embiid is a "bust" but all the Philly workouts keep raving about how his versatility is the best out of all these guys.

Crazy potential and talent here. And they'll need to decide where to play them.

Simmons might be forced to play SF, since he's the fastest.
Okafor has to play Center, since he's the slowest.
Noel might get thrown to the bench. Embiid might be a bench piece. Saric might be a bench piece.

Crazy. Too big of a logjam.

Honestly, they should be looking to trade for one of the guards from last year's draft that was successful with one of these guys.

PurpleLynch
07-16-2016, 06:04 AM
Best rookie in SL should be Dunn,I think he's the most Nba ready of the bunch. ROY will be a race between Simmons and Dunn. I think Ingram has a high ceiling,still he has to bulk up and refine his game overall and so I doubt he will be in the race since he will split minutes with Deng and doesn't look as comfortable as Simmons and Dunn. That's my guess though.

IKnowHoops
07-16-2016, 12:19 PM
lol.

Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Saric, and SImmons

where the hell are they gonna play all of these guys?

Noel is a proven 30 minutes a game player that plays great defense and passable offense.
Okafor is a proven 30 minutes a game player that has a great scoring touch.
Simmons is a passing big man that will get 25+ minutes a game being the 1st pick.
Saric has been raved about for a long time.
Embiid is a "bust" but all the Philly workouts keep raving about how his versatility is the best out of all these guys.

Crazy potential and talent here. And they'll need to decide where to play them.

Simmons might be forced to play SF, since he's the fastest.
Okafor has to play Center, since he's the slowest.
Noel might get thrown to the bench. Embiid might be a bench piece. Saric might be a bench piece.

Crazy. Too big of a logjam.

Honestly, they should be looking to trade for one of the guards from last year's draft that was successful with one of these guys.

I'm hoping that the Wolves and sixers work out a trade for one of those bigs. I like Oaks projections and how he would work on the wolves once he comes into his own.

SeoulBeatz
07-16-2016, 12:44 PM
I'm hoping that the Wolves and sixers work out a trade for one of those bigs. I like Oaks projections and how he would work on the wolves once he comes into his own.

I see the trailblazers as a logical trade partner.

They have a glut of wings with big contracts after signing Turner and Crabbe.

McCollum will be hard to tie up with their limited capspace going forward so I would try to move Noel and a future pick for him.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 12:52 PM
Okafor for CJ in some capacity almost makes too much sense right now. I know the blazers signed Ezili and Leonard but they are backups/sport starters.

SeoulBeatz
07-16-2016, 01:01 PM
Okafor for CJ in some capacity almost makes too much sense right now. I know the blazers signed Ezili and Leonard but they are backups/sport starters.

I'd be willing to give up either. I just said Noel because it seems like gm's value him more, and honestly, I'm loving how Okafor has been really going out of his way to show that he wants to be here. I'm more keen on holding on to him since Noel will require a near max when he's a free agent (something Bc's probably not willing to give him, nor am I).

warfelg
07-16-2016, 01:06 PM
I'd be willing to give up either. I just said Noel because it seems like gm's value him more, and honestly, I'm loving how Okafor has been really going out of his way to show that he wants to be here. I'm more keen on holding on to him since Noel will require a near max when he's a free agent (something Bc's probably not willing to give him, nor am I).

Well let's just be honest here:
Okafor is going to want the same when he's a RFA. So it's not like keeping one gives you some kind of contract break.

I keep Noel because his defense, plus whatever extra he gives you on offense, is much more valuable to me than Okafors offense plus whatever he gives you on defense.

SeoulBeatz
07-16-2016, 01:19 PM
Well let's just be honest here:
Okafor is going to want the same when he's a RFA. So it's not like keeping one gives you some kind of contract break.

I keep Noel because his defense, plus whatever extra he gives you on offense, is much more valuable to me than Okafors offense plus whatever he gives you on defense.

True, but Noel is on his last year. I don't think he has a chance to live up to that kind of contract in one year in a crowded frontcourt. I have faith that Okafor will be able to show he can improve his defense and rebounding in a few more seasons to warrant that contract. I think people bash Okafor because he lived up to his scouting report. He's an excellent post scorer, average rebounder, subpar defender. 17.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.2 bpg 50%FG, and 69%FT at 19 years old is impressive regardless imo.

He also seems to have lost weight when i saw him in summer league buddying up with embiid. I'd rather be rid of the logjam sooner rather than have to deal with giving Noel a max after this season when it probably wont be warranted. Okafor can be dealt with in a few years so that gives us leeway to see what we can do with him.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 01:31 PM
I'd be willing to give up either. I just said Noel because it seems like gm's value him more, and honestly, I'm loving how Okafor has been really going out of his way to show that he wants to be here. I'm more keen on holding on to him since Noel will require a near max when he's a free agent (something Bc's probably not willing to give him, nor am I).

oh i agree 100%. id deal either for sure but figure part of the reason to deal CJ is bcuz they wont be able/willing to match a max and Noel puts them in that same boat even though im sure they rather pay a C like Noel longterm compared to another back court player.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 01:33 PM
True, but Noel is on his last year. I don't think he has a chance to live up to that kind of contract in one year in a crowded frontcourt. I have faith that Okafor will be able to show he can improve his defense and rebounding in a few more seasons to warrant that contract. I think people bash Okafor because he lived up to his scouting report. He's an excellent post scorer, average rebounder, subpar defender. 17.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.2 bpg 50%FG, and 69%FT at 19 years old is impressive regardless imo.

He also seems to have lost weight when i saw him in summer league buddying up with embiid. I'd rather be rid of the logjam sooner rather than have to deal with giving Noel a max after this season when it probably wont be warranted. Okafor can be dealt with in a few years so that gives us leeway to see what we can do with him.

I wish you stopped in the Sixers forum more. I did a long post while still in season that historically defense and rebounding typically doesn't improve that much. So Okafor and a big negative DBPM, best case is a career -0.5 DBPM. And as a low percent rebounds he highly unlikely to ever become a high percentage rebounder.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 01:40 PM
none of that matters bcuz no past players trajectory of crazy advanced stats mean the same for another players in the long term. No rookies are really good defenders and we shouldnt have expected one whose never had to really give effort on that end in his career to do much at 19 especially with such horrible wing defenders. Sure he has a ways to go but he was strong in man to man in the post and was solid boxing out and a better rebounder than he got credit for.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 01:50 PM
Acutely when the data is compiled from hundreds of rookies, yea it does hold weight.

I'm more willing to bet that Okafor never becomes anything close to an average defender than anything else I could bet on.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 02:01 PM
ill take that bet 100x out of 100. i fully expect to see an improvement this year. its pretty ridiculous to say a 20 year old coming into his 2nd season (with a greatly improved all around team) wont improve over the course of his career to become even a below avg defender. I cant even begin to explain how insane i think you sound.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 02:11 PM
I'm not saying he won't improve. I'm saying he will be nothing more than a below average defender.

The data backs what I'm saying. He was a -1.5 DBPM. It's very rare that a guy that low ever ends up with a positive DBPM. And post players DBPM needs to be 1.0 to be even average. On the whole, players DBPM who start as low as Okafors, end up averaging a -0.2. Meaning they were a below average defender for their career.

The data backs me in this. Sure, can he be or become and exemption to the rule? Yea. But it's highly unlikely.

Especially when Marc Gasol is the poster child for this change and his DBPM went from 0.1 to 2.5.

krazylegz
07-16-2016, 02:18 PM
well obviously the winner of the rookie of the year will be a player that had to be inserted as a starter on a crappy team....with that being said...sleeper draft pick this year is kay felder for the cavs.....STUD SCORER...alot like isiah thomas of the celtics:):)

PAOboston
07-16-2016, 02:19 PM
I think Simmons will probably be able to have the minutes/touches/stats to contribute immediately on a crappy 76ers team and ultimately get the award.

For Dunn I have mixed feelings on. I think he could be a nice player but he's significantly older than a lot of the other lotto picks so I don't find his SL performances that "amazing." I would be worried if someone his age didn't stand out in the SL.

PAOboston
07-16-2016, 02:20 PM
well obviously the winner of the rookie of the year will be a player that had to be inserted as a starter on a crappy team....with that being said...sleeper draft pick this year is kay felder for the cavs.....STUD SCORER...alot like isiah thomas of the celtics:):)
I was impressed with him the other night vs the C's. Unfortunately for him, I'm not sure if he'll find the minutes on a Cavs roster built to compete.

Chronz
07-16-2016, 02:21 PM
none of that matters bcuz no past players trajectory of crazy advanced stats mean the same for another players in the long term. No rookies are really good defenders and we shouldnt have expected one whose never had to really give effort on that end in his career to do much at 19 especially with such horrible wing defenders. Sure he has a ways to go but he was strong in man to man in the post and was solid boxing out and a better rebounder than he got credit for.
Nerlens was a pretty good defender when he first showed up and I dont see how hes a better rebounder. If you mean he boxes out whoopdy doo, the best rebounders in the league do both so it doesn't offset his teams lack of dominance while hes out there.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 02:31 PM
Nerlens was a pretty good defender when he first showed up and I dont see how hes a better rebounder. If you mean he boxes out whoopdy doo, the best rebounders in the league do both so it doesn't offset his teams lack of dominance while hes out there.

Pretty much. Okafor also doesn't "find" rebounds like Noel does. Okafor basically needs to one on one box out where he doesn't have to slide side to side and have the ball right in front of him.

ISIAH_THOMAS
07-16-2016, 02:55 PM
Best rookie in SL: Dunn

Simmons will win ROY clear path to playing time and will put up stats

Eagles4Lyfe
07-16-2016, 03:06 PM
Why are ppl ignoring what Makers been doing?
He's looked legit at times and laugh worthy at times but chalk that up to inexperience.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 03:07 PM
Why are ppl ignoring what Makers been doing?
He's looked legit at times and laugh worthy at times but chalk that up to inexperience.

Because he's 45 :laugh:

IKnowHoops
07-16-2016, 04:26 PM
I wish you stopped in the Sixers forum more. I did a long post while still in season that historically defense and rebounding typically doesn't improve that much. So Okafor and a big negative DBPM, best case is a career -0.5 DBPM. And as a low percent rebounds he highly unlikely to ever become a high percentage rebounder.

When you are only 19 going against grown men, everything improves. Look at Buddy Hield as a freshman in college to a senior. The improvement was ridiculous. Okafor will improve the same from 19-22. He will be much better than he was as a 19 year rookie.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 04:29 PM
When you are only 19 going against grown men, everything improves. Look at Buddy Hield as a freshman in college to a senior. The improvement was ridiculous. Okafor will improve the same from 19-22. He will be much better than he was as a 19 year rookie.

He'll be better. But I doubt he will ever be an average defender for his position. He lacks many things that can't be coached.

IKnowHoops
07-16-2016, 04:29 PM
I'm not saying he won't improve. I'm saying he will be nothing more than a below average defender.

The data backs what I'm saying. He was a -1.5 DBPM. It's very rare that a guy that low ever ends up with a positive DBPM. And post players DBPM needs to be 1.0 to be even average. On the whole, players DBPM who start as low as Okafors, end up averaging a -0.2. Meaning they were a below average defender for their career.

The data backs me in this. Sure, can he be or become and exemption to the rule? Yea. But it's highly unlikely.

Especially when Marc Gasol is the poster child for this change and his DBPM went from 0.1 to 2.5.

You need to adjust your data to account for only 18-19 year old rookies that start out of the gate and then get back to us. If your data is still concrete, only then will I think you may be on to something. Until then I think your data is skewed because there is such a big difference between a 19 year old and a 22 year old rookie.

IKnowHoops
07-16-2016, 04:35 PM
He'll be better. But I doubt he will ever be an average defender for his position. He lacks many things that can't be coached.

Such as?

warfelg
07-16-2016, 04:51 PM
You need to adjust your data to account for only 18-19 year old rookies that start out of the gate and then get back to us. If your data is still concrete, only then will I think you may be on to something. Until then I think your data is skewed because there is such a big difference between a 19 year old and a 22 year old rookie.

Not my data. A couple of Philly writers (and one at the Vertical) did the research and articles on all of this. Care to prove my statement wrong? Them prove it.

And yes the data might be skewed...to make the rookies look even better.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 04:53 PM
Such as?

Desire, heart, reaction time, defensive IQ, timing.

Trust me. I watched every game. Okafor might be an average man defender when all said and done but he will never be an even average rim protector it a guy that wins you 50/50 possession battles. Okafor is a 6'11" version of Carmelo Anthony.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 05:06 PM
Articles like this:
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/02/29/the-sixers-failing-defense-and-the-loss-of-an-identity/

And here's the article that shows projections of growth:
http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/03/02/jahlil-okafor-and-defensive-improvement/

Comparing him to every rookie center since 1974 with at least 1000 minutes and he's in the bottom 10. That's not good.

IKnowHoops
07-16-2016, 05:14 PM
I wish you stopped in the Sixers forum more. I did a long post while still in season that historically defense and rebounding typically doesn't improve that much. So Okafor and a big negative DBPM, best case is a career -0.5 DBPM. And as a low percent rebounds he highly unlikely to ever become a high percentage rebounder.

And how valuable is DBPM and how relevant is it to being a good defender? I always thought Kobe was a good defender yet he is a career -0.6 DBPM. If Oak is a better defender than Kobe but still below average, he will be fine. Or is it that DBPM is somewhat misleading.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 05:40 PM
And how valuable is DBPM and how relevant is it to being a good defender? I always thought Kobe was a good defender yet he is a career -0.6 DBPM. If Oak is a better defender than Kobe but still below average, he will be fine. Or is it that DBPM is somewhat misleading.

What is considered good or average for DBPM is a sliding scale for position. 0.0 is about average for the wings because you defend more space. 1.5 is average for big's because you are defending a smaller area.

DBPM is a way to measure PM by looking at the players impact on the box score somewhat independently of what the teammates do. It was developed as a way to tell if a player was a good player on a bad team or a bad player on a good team basically.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 05:50 PM
Desire, heart, reaction time, defensive IQ, timing.

Trust me. I watched every game. Okafor might be an average man defender when all said and done but he will never be an even average rim protector it a guy that wins you 50/50 possession battles. Okafor is a 6'11" version of Carmelo Anthony.

i dont buy that desire and heart are an issue, actually ill say theyre not. His IQ and timing are his weak points but again the kid never had to try on that end since it was more important he carries his teams offensive loads his entire life, that will finally change some this year. People are too qucik to determine what players are anymore, its been one season on one o the worst squads ever, let the kid develop.

flea
07-16-2016, 06:37 PM
What is considered good or average for DBPM is a sliding scale for position. 0.0 is about average for the wings because you defend more space. 1.5 is average for big's because you are defending a smaller area.

What? I have never heard this before. The theoretical (and true to life) reason that bigs have higher DBPMs is that they are much more important to a team's defense than wings and guards. If you had a big as bad as James Harden on defense you would have a bottom 5 defense every single year - regardless of what is around him.

The literal reason bigs have higher DBPMs is that they have lower OBPMs and DBPM is calculated only by subtracting OBPM from the overall BPM calculation. All calculations of BPM are box score stats tied to team ratings and smaller players rack up the box score stats that correlate with offense (points, 3s, assists) while bigs rack up blocks and boards.

BPM is not a real Plus/Minus stat, it's a box score stat with adjustments. In that respect, it's much closer to Win Shares as a stat than it is a true Plus/Minus measure. Hence why DBPM is regarded as the much more shaky measure than its offensive counterpart, the box score is bad at measuring defense. Even play-by-play data is not particularly enlightening, but it's much better. Defense is just hard to measure.


DBPM is a way to measure PM by looking at the players impact on the box score somewhat independently of what the teammates do.

This is backwards, or at least not precisely true. BPM attempts to measure a player's impact on team ratings using the box score as its sole guide.

_____________


In any case, it's strange how down Sixers fans are on Okafor. He's the most accomplished (by far) of their trio of centers and the most healthy, but yet he was the one many Sixers fans around here wanted to trade. I think his defense will certainly improve - very few rookies are good defensively because (a) NBA defense is harder and (b) most NBA rookies who see PT are doing so because they're offensive assets, because that is who gets drafted. Okafor was a solid defender by the end of his freshman year in college - his size alone will help him if he's got the IQ and willingness to learn. Some guys do, some don't - but I haven't seen or heard anything from Okafor to make me think he's just there to collect paychecks.

As to his rebounding, it's overstated. For a case of a guy who improved his rebounding, look to Nene. He still has been criticized for his motor at times and has never been a player who wins you a game on the glass, but he was a solid average (and sometimes better) rebounder for his career. Same with Pau Gasol, he wasn't much when he showed up on the glass and steadily got better.

That said, focus on what you've got. An offensive player who was compared to Tim Duncan on that end. If Duncan had just been an average defender he'd still be a HOFer. Okafor can faceup and drive or shoot, play with his back to the basket, has the makings of a good P&R player with his agility and touch, and pass. That's what he showed in college winning a championship, and that's what he was in year 1. You build around that, you don't trade it and try to lose more as though you still employ Hinkie.

flea
07-16-2016, 06:40 PM
Oh and take all stats adjusted for team ratings on the '16 Sixers with a grain of salt, IMO. It was a team built to do nothing but lose - it may not have lost the most games ever but it was probably the worst team I've ever seen. Just a pathetic situation, there might have been 1 role player on that whole team outside of Okafor you could justify giving minutes to in an 8 man playoff rotation. Everything else ranged from end of bench fodder to "why is this D leaguer in the NBA?"

warfelg
07-16-2016, 06:42 PM
I'm one of the ones most down on Okafor BTW. I was also one of the few against drafting him and one of the few that warned of bad defense and poor rebounding.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 06:47 PM
And part of the reason I'm down on him is because the only things people use to explain his play is age and the team around him.

Never mind Noel managed to post a 3.8ish DBPM with the same team and half a year out of position.

Okafor just isn't a good defender or rebounder. It happens. Not everyone is good at everything. His flaws get to easily passed over because of his offense. But things he was supposedly "good" at didn't get shown. He was supposed to be a good rebounder. He wasn't. He's supposed to be a good passer. He wasn't or was unwilling.

flea
07-16-2016, 07:32 PM
And part of the reason I'm down on him is because the only things people use to explain his play is age and the team around him.

Never mind Noel managed to post a 3.8ish DBPM with the same team and half a year out of position.

He played well, I mean what is the problem? Did you think he was going to carry the worst roster in the history of the NBA to a 30 win season or something? Very few rookies could have done much about that team's ineptitude - that's why people point to the fact that stats connected to team rating on a team specifically designed to be as bad as possible should at least raise eyebrows. I'll take it with a heavy dose of salt.


Okafor just isn't a good defender or rebounder. It happens. Not everyone is good at everything. His flaws get to easily passed over because of his offense. But things he was supposedly "good" at didn't get shown. He was supposed to be a good rebounder. He wasn't. He's supposed to be a good passer. He wasn't or was unwilling.

Lebron's not a good shooter or rim protector - so what? That's what you have teammates for. Okafor is a 19 year old, he can definitely get better. Why do you seem to think who he is at 19 in the NBA is who he is forever?

Not sure who you were reading but nobody said Okafor was a "good rebounder." That was one of his big questions. He was supposed to be (and was in college) a good offensive rebounder but the NBA has different bodies, it's still a man's game in the paint. But there have been a lot of solid rebounders with worse numbers their rookie year - some with worse rebounding numbers even a couple years into the league (ahem Aldridge).

It sounds more like you never liked the pick, even though should be thanking God the Lakers screwed their pick up ahead of you, and you use the futility of the team to denigrate a teenage 17.5 PPG post scorer. He's going to be one of the top 10 scorers in the game within 5 years so long as he doesn't lose his mind or something. It's amazing how little you think that's worth.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 07:37 PM
And you fall into the exact things as to why Okafor is actually overrated.

Also a LeBron comp? Really?

Your inability to put Okafors problems on him means this conversation is over.

flea
07-16-2016, 07:46 PM
And you fall into the exact things as to why Okafor is actually overrated.

Also a LeBron comp? Really?

Your inability to put Okafors problems on him means this conversation is over.

Lol I wasn't saying he's flawless, relax. He's definitely got concerns with his motor and instincts on defense, and I don't think he's ever going to be a guy who wins you games on the glass or with his defense (like I already said).

I was just saying I don't get how he's the most disliked of the 3 bigs among Sixers fans when he's the only one that has shown promise. Consider:

- Noel has had knee surgery already and plays an athletic style of defense with no offense. Sure there's Ben Wallace upside if you squint but the reason people remember Wallace is because of his uniqueness - betting on that is probably a loser. I think if Noel ends up as good as Tristan Thompson that you should be ecstatic.

- Embiid hasn't touched the floor in the NBA, was often injured and underperformed at Kansas, and is still getting hype based on the fact he can jump and has a decent touch. He has no real scoring ability that anybody has seen yet and he has back problems as a big (basically the death knell)

- Okafor: the concerns are still there as a 19 year old that he had as an 18 year old, but in the last 2 years he has won a national title as his team's best player and put up an efficient scoring line as a teenager in the NBA. He was hurt some and had off court issues so it wasn't all roses but at least he showed he can do what you thought he could - score.

How is he the worst on that list?

warfelg
07-16-2016, 07:49 PM
Lol I wasn't saying he's flawless, relax. He's definitely got concerns with his motor and instincts on defense, and I don't think he's ever going to be a guy who wins you games on the glass or with his defense (like I already said).

I was just saying I don't get how he's the most disliked of the 3 bigs among Sixers fans when he's the only one that has shown promise. Consider:

- Noel has had knee surgery already and plays an athletic style of defense with no offense. Sure there's Ben Wallace upside if you squint but the reason people remember Wallace is because of his uniqueness - betting on that is probably a loser. I think if Noel ends up as good as Tristan Thompson that you should be ecstatic.

- Embiid hasn't touched the floor in the NBA, was often injured and underperformed at Kansas, and is still getting hype based on the fact he can jump and has a decent touch. He has no real scoring ability that anybody has seen yet and he has back problems as a big (basically the death knell)

- Okafor: the concerns are still there as a 19 year old that he had as an 18 year old, but in the last 2 years he has won a national title as his team's best player and put up an efficient scoring line as a teenager in the NBA. He was hurt some and had off court issues so it wasn't all roses but at least he showed he can do what you thought he could - score.

How is he the worst on that list?

Most of us value Noel's defense much more than Okafors offense.

Embiid is the best of both.

Also Noel's knee broken is overblown. It was a torn ACL. Happens to a ton of players. Okafor had a torn meniscus, which is more of an issue for players in the long run.

TheDish87
07-16-2016, 09:08 PM
i value Oaks O and Noels D about equal. There is more of a chance Oak can catch up to Noels D than vice versa. Noel has been in league 3 years with an intense focus on developing his O and it hasnt improved at all. You can avoid Noel on D an be succesful, not many can stop Oak on offense 1v1 if any.

warfelg
07-16-2016, 10:05 PM
i value Oaks O and Noels D about equal. There is more of a chance Oak can catch up to Noels D than vice versa. Noel has been in league 3 years with an intense focus on developing his O and it hasnt improved at all. You can avoid Noel on D an be succesful, not many can stop Oak on offense 1v1 if any.

No. No, no, no, no. Not a snowballs chance in hell can Okafor's defense catch Noel's at all.

Meanwhile Noel's offense went from 46.2% in year one to 52.1% in year two. Last year Okafor was a 50.8% shooter from the floor. In 2016, Noel attempted 8.8 shots per game, 10.8 per 36. In 2016 Okafor attempted 14.7 shots per game, 17.7 per 36. That means on his number of shots per game, Noel was scoring 9.2 points. Okafor was scoring 14.9 points. If Noel was given the same number of shots per game as Okafor, he would have scored 15.3 points.

Yes the points came about differently and you wouldn't want Noel as the centerpiece of your offense, but to say that Okafors defense can catch Noels easier that Noel's offense can catch Okafor's might already be wrong.

Meanwhile Noel's defense: 22.2 DRB%, 2.9 STL%, 3.9 BLK%, 2.8 DWS, 3.4 DBPM.
Okafor's defense?
Well, not pretty: 17.8 DRB%, 0.7 STL%, 2.9 BLK%, 0.9 DWS, -1.5 DBPM.

And that's on the same team with WS and DBPM so you can't blame the team. And what you can say about some of Noel's numbers being down from 2015 (21 DRB%, 2.9 STL%, 5.0 BLK%, 4.2 DWS, 4.5 DBPM) was the playing half the year out of position.

More-Than-Most
07-17-2016, 01:45 AM
Lol You guys are killing me.. I can literally see Wars head smacking against his keyboard as he is reading this stuff... I am in the OKA-------->Noel camp as well but this is great

flea
07-17-2016, 04:19 AM
No. No, no, no, no. Not a snowballs chance in hell can Okafor's defense catch Noel's at all.

Meanwhile Noel's offense went from 46.2% in year one to 52.1% in year two. Last year Okafor was a 50.8% shooter from the floor. In 2016, Noel attempted 8.8 shots per game, 10.8 per 36. In 2016 Okafor attempted 14.7 shots per game, 17.7 per 36. That means on his number of shots per game, Noel was scoring 9.2 points. Okafor was scoring 14.9 points. If Noel was given the same number of shots per game as Okafor, he would have scored 15.3 points.

Yes the points came about differently and you wouldn't want Noel as the centerpiece of your offense, but to say that Okafors defense can catch Noels easier that Noel's offense can catch Okafor's might already be wrong.

Meanwhile Noel's defense: 22.2 DRB%, 2.9 STL%, 3.9 BLK%, 2.8 DWS, 3.4 DBPM.
Okafor's defense?
Well, not pretty: 17.8 DRB%, 0.7 STL%, 2.9 BLK%, 0.9 DWS, -1.5 DBPM.

And that's on the same team with WS and DBPM so you can't blame the team. And what you can say about some of Noel's numbers being down from 2015 (21 DRB%, 2.9 STL%, 5.0 BLK%, 4.2 DWS, 4.5 DBPM) was the playing half the year out of position.

Whoa dude, nevermind that you haven't given anyone a reason to care about DBPM on a 10 win team. Are you really trying to say that the difference between Noel and Okafor's offense is opportunity? Because that's about as insane as saying the difference between Blake Griffin and Amir Johnson's offense is opportunity. I'm not sure you really understand how talented Okafor is in spite of his drawbacks....

warfelg
07-17-2016, 05:49 AM
Nope. Clearly not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is even though his usage is lower than Okafors, most of Noel's offensive efficiency numbers are very close to Okafors. And they improved a good deal between his first and second years. So within his role, Noel makes better use of his offense than Okafor does.

I rather have the guy that's able to change a game defensively, and play his role offensively and be efficient within it than the guy who dominated the ball offensively and isn't a huge impact defensively.

And I'm back to the same thing that I dealt with all season in the Sixers forum:

I don't hate Okafor. He's a fine player. But I just don't like him for our team. He was the square peg in a round hole and still is. Everything about this team (granted the parts aren't good) is about playing with great tempo. Okafor isn't that.

People keep talking about Noel like he's a complete product (just turned 21) when he isn't, and talk about Okafor like the sky's the limit (he just turned 20). Noel is still developing too!

warfelg
07-17-2016, 06:09 AM
Oh and haven't given anyone to care about DBPM?

When it's two guys that are on the same team, most logical people would say that because they are on the same team you can compare them because any flaws you might poke in it are irrelevant.

They have a spread of 4.9 in their DBPM!

Do you understand how huge of a gap that is?

Know what their OBPM's are? And again because they are on the same team it makes issues with BPM smaller because they are playing with the same team mates:
Noel -2.7
Okafor -2.6

No my whole thing here isn't that Okafor is bad. Not at all. If you were to look in Sixers forum I never call him a bad player.

No what it's showing is just how underrated Noel is. And your falling into the exact trap! You keep saying how good Okafors offense is, while all along saying that everything else will develop. Meanwhile ignoring the actual development from Noel, acting like he's a finished product, and ignoring the fact that statistically Noel is one of the best defensive centers in the NBA already.

Yes time will tell. But it's gonna end up on my side when you look at the whole picture, meaning the offense and defense. Okafor will always be talented offensively, but a problem on defense and rebounding. Noel will always be talented defensively, and do enough offensively that his overall impact on a game is higher.

warfelg
07-17-2016, 06:33 AM
Lol You guys are killing me.. I can literally see Wars head smacking against his keyboard as he is reading this stuff... I am in the OKA-------->Noel camp as well but this is great

Ugh it is. And part of it is because I would bet that maybe one or two people in main saw more that the 2 games the Sixers played against their team. Other than that they are looking at offense only stats going 17>10 that's all that matters.

I just....I don't think some people understand just how good Noel is. We're in a place where Mozgov is worse than Noel on both offense and defense yet got a 4 year deal at $16mil per year deal to be a starting center. Yet Al Jefferson, who statistically is similar to Okafor, got 3 years at $10 mil a year to come off the bench for the Pacers. Yes I realize that age played a part, but we're in an NBA where mobile centers who play defense are worth more than post centers who can't play help defense.

Not that any of this matter because Embiid is going to **** on both of them when he's on the court.

Alayla
07-17-2016, 09:51 AM
Nope. Clearly not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is even though his usage is lower than Okafors, most of Noel's offensive efficiency numbers are very close to Okafors. And they improved a good deal between his first and second years. So within his role, Noel makes better use of his offense than Okafor does.

I rather have the guy that's able to change a game defensively, and play his role offensively and be efficient within it than the guy who dominated the ball offensively and isn't a huge impact defensively.

And I'm back to the same thing that I dealt with all season in the Sixers forum:

I don't hate Okafor. He's a fine player. But I just don't like him for our team. He was the square peg in a round hole and still is. Everything about this team (granted the parts aren't good) is about playing with great tempo. Okafor isn't that.

People keep talking about Noel like he's a complete product (just turned 21) when he isn't, and talk about Okafor like the sky's the limit (he just turned 20). Noel is still developing too!

All of this

TheDish87
07-17-2016, 10:22 AM
Ugh it is. And part of it is because I would bet that maybe one or two people in main saw more that the 2 games the Sixers played against their team. Other than that they are looking at offense only stats going 17>10 that's all that matters.

I just....I don't think some people understand just how good Noel is. We're in a place where Mozgov is worse than Noel on both offense and defense yet got a 4 year deal at $16mil per year deal to be a starting center. Yet Al Jefferson, who statistically is similar to Okafor, got 3 years at $10 mil a year to come off the bench for the Pacers. Yes I realize that age played a part, but we're in an NBA where mobile centers who play defense are worth more than post centers who can't play help defense.

Not that any of this matter because Embiid is going to **** on both of them when he's on the court.

come on youre better than that. dont pretend like you dont know Al Jeff is 31 and been in the league 13 years with tons of injury concerns, he signed to be a backup bcuz he is almost worn down. Talk about trying to force a point. And just bcuz Mozgov got 16mil doesnt mean he is anything close to worth it bcuz hes not and it was foolish deal and the Lakers didnt even have anyone to bid against.

Also if/when we trade a big i would go into games fearing Okafor, that will never be the case for Noel.

warfelg
07-17-2016, 10:30 AM
come on youre better than that. dont pretend like you dont know Al Jeff is 31 and been in the league 13 years with tons of injury concerns, he signed to be a backup bcuz he is almost worn down. Talk about trying to force a point. And just bcuz Mozgov got 16mil doesnt mean he is anything close to worth it bcuz hes not and it was foolish deal and the Lakers didnt even have anyone to bid against.

Look at the end of that paragraph [emoji6] I said I realize Al is old. And that contract just goes to prove my point. Centers who can be even average at defense will get paid. Heck an older than dirt Tyson Chandler got the max, and he's similar to Noel. DeAndre Jordan, similar defensive and offensive numbers (takes more shots within 3 feet, hence the higher FG%) to Noel and got the Max. Whiteside got the max. Dwight got $23+mil a year. Look around the league at centers. The defensive ones get paid. The offensive ones do too, but not at the same rate.


Also if/when we trade a big i would go into games fearing Okafor, that will never be the case for Noel.

They are both feared. All you have to do is listen to any coach talk about trying to attack the rim when Noel is on the court.

hugepatsfan
07-17-2016, 11:31 AM
Give me Noel over Okafor all ****ing day. Okafor is a great talent but the holes he has at the center spot don't work on a title contending team.

warfelg
07-17-2016, 12:07 PM
Give me Noel over Okafor all ****ing day. Okafor is a great talent but the holes he has at the center spot don't work on a title contending team.

Thank you. I've never said this to a Celtics fan but I love ya.

flea
07-17-2016, 12:26 PM
Nope. Clearly not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is even though his usage is lower than Okafors, most of Noel's offensive efficiency numbers are very close to Okafors. And they improved a good deal between his first and second years. So within his role, Noel makes better use of his offense than Okafor does.

Well first, efficiency is not the same thing as FG%. Okafor was an extremely efficient scorer in the low post area, remarkable considering he's a teenager. He shot 67.5% at the rim and 46% in the 3-10 low post. He doesn't draw fouls as much as you'd like your #1 scorer yet and his volume isn't there but he is going to be a very efficient scorer. The only question is whether he'll become a playmaker too, because if his team is anything other than abysmal he's going to start drawing doubles - and that's far more efficient than anything Noel will ever do as a P&R man.


Oh and haven't given anyone to care about DBPM?

When it's two guys that are on the same team, most logical people would say that because they are on the same team you can compare them because any flaws you might poke in it are irrelevant.

They have a spread of 4.9 in their DBPM!

Do you understand how huge of a gap that is?

Know what their OBPM's are? And again because they are on the same team it makes issues with BPM smaller because they are playing with the same team mates:
Noel -2.7
Okafor -2.6

No my whole thing here isn't that Okafor is bad. Not at all. If you were to look in Sixers forum I never call him a bad player.

No what it's showing is just how underrated Noel is. And your falling into the exact trap! You keep saying how good Okafors offense is, while all along saying that everything else will develop. Meanwhile ignoring the actual development from Noel, acting like he's a finished product, and ignoring the fact that statistically Noel is one of the best defensive centers in the NBA already.

Yes time will tell. But it's gonna end up on my side when you look at the whole picture, meaning the offense and defense. Okafor will always be talented offensively, but a problem on defense and rebounding. Noel will always be talented defensively, and do enough offensively that his overall impact on a game is higher.

Once again, you have not given me any reason to care about DBPM on a 10 win team. You just re-stated what each player has. While nobody would argue that Noel is a better defender now, it's difficult to imagine him as terribly impactful if his team is still a bottom 5 defense. And in no circumstance is he "one of the best defensive centers in the NBA." Top half, maybe.

DBPM is a box score stat and it's calculation has nothing to do with defense - it merely presumes that it's overall division of value and offensive value are perfect and therefore the difference between them will be. So basically what you're saying when you keep reciting DBPM is that Noel is the best defensive player on the 4th worst defense and that we should be impressed that when he was on the court the Sixers were "only" comfortably the worst team in the league on a possession basis instead of a few points worse than that.

Finally, I'm not sure about your latest comparisons. Neither player is physically much like Chandler or Jefferson.

While Jefferson was a fine scorer he never became much of a playmaker, he didn't get defense until far into his career, and he was just generally a fat and lazy player collecting a paycheck like many big men before him (by his own admission too). And the Hornets/Bobcats with him were actually very good defensive teams which shows guys like him can be a part of a good team defense if they try - his T Wolves teams were just bad (Johnny Flynn bad) and Jazz poorly built in the golden age of the Western Conference. Plus Jefferson has a PF's body with a little dough on it, Okafor has C size and length.

As to Tyson, Noel is no where near as big as he is and likely because of that won't be the rebounder Tyson was. Noel can be an athletic menace but he doesn't have the body to play like Tyson on the roll or in the paint clearing out space. I think the plus factor for Noel is that he plays the style of defense that's popular in schemes today but it's hard for that to have as much of an impact as Tyson Chandler. (But not impossible, see Joakim Noah or KG.) But again, he's not close to that yet.

LakerGuru24
07-17-2016, 12:58 PM
Embid will be rookie of the year I Kno he ain't play in two years but the touch is like riding bike and u don't loose that once he knocks off the rust he gone to be a dominate big man why you think they want to trade ever body else but him in Simmons

IKnowHoops
07-17-2016, 01:19 PM
Look at the end of that paragraph [emoji6] I said I realize Al is old. And that contract just goes to prove my point. Centers who can be even average at defense will get paid. Heck an older than dirt Tyson Chandler got the max, and he's similar to Noel. DeAndre Jordan, similar defensive and offensive numbers (takes more shots within 3 feet, hence the higher FG%) to Noel and got the Max. Whiteside got the max. Dwight got $23+mil a year. Look around the league at centers. The defensive ones get paid. The offensive ones do too, but not at the same rate.



They are both feared. All you have to do is listen to any coach talk about trying to attack the rim when Noel is on the court.

Cause there are no offensive centers bro. So let's include PF. You don't think Boogie will get more than any othe center out there? Blake? Even Love. Love is as non defensive as it gets, and had he waited he'd get max money so what your saying isn't true.

warfelg
07-17-2016, 01:59 PM
Cause there are no offensive centers bro. So let's include PF. You don't think Boogie will get more than any othe center out there? Blake? Even Love. Love is as non defensive as it gets, and had he waited he'd get max money so what your saying isn't true.

Boogie and Blake are better defenders than Okafor. Even Love was a better defender.

End of day y'all giving Okafor too much credit and Noel not enough.

More-Than-Most
07-17-2016, 06:13 PM
My reasoning for wanting OKA over Noel is this... I dont want us paying NOEL the max next off season when we can pay OKA nothing for a few years


The next thing is Noel has no offensive game... He just doesnt. He might become slightly better but I doubt he will ever become even good offensively.... Oka the same I doubt he will ever become even good defensively but Id rather have an offensive talent that demands double teams all the time like OKA because it opens up the offense a ton esp if he learns to dish it out more.


Noel is one of the better defenders in all of basketball in my opinion... He has insane value. I dont care about who we keep out of the 2 because Embiid----------------------> All

Bostonjorge
07-17-2016, 06:31 PM
Embid will be rookie of the year I Kno he ain't play in two years but the touch is like riding bike and u don't loose that once he knocks off the rust he gone to be a dominate big man why you think they want to trade ever body else but him in Simmons

What touch? His game came from athleticism. Embiid is still offensively challenge.

warfelg
07-17-2016, 06:38 PM
My reasoning for wanting OKA over Noel is this... I dont want us paying NOEL the max next off season when we can pay OKA nothing for a few years


The next thing is Noel has no offensive game... He just doesnt. He might become slightly better but I doubt he will ever become even good offensively.... Oka the same I doubt he will ever become even good defensively but Id rather have an offensive talent that demands double teams all the time like OKA because it opens up the offense a ton esp if he learns to dish it out more.

Quite reasonable. And can't really argue with much else than even if we pay Noel the max we have room for 2 other max contracts with Simmons and Saric on rookie contracts for 4 years and Embiid for 2 more. Add in 5 picks in 3 years. I think we can afford it, but it sounds like you are reasonable in each.

I disagree that Noel has no offensive game. He's a great "clean up the scraps" offensive type (aka you don't need to call plays for him), and he's a good pick and roll player. He just doesn't have a traditional back to the basket game. So he has some offensive game.


Noel is one of the better defenders in all of basketball in my opinion... He has insane value. I dont care about who we keep out of the 2 because Embiid----------------------> All

I will co-sign both of these statements.

mrblisterdundee
07-18-2016, 10:56 AM
Simmons is probably the favorite, especially if he can enliven Philadelphia's offense with his passing.

TheDish87
07-18-2016, 12:52 PM
What touch? His game came from athleticism. Embiid is still offensively challenge.

thatd just not true. far from it in fact