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View Full Version : Red Sox acquire LHP Drew Pomeranz from San Diego



j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:05 PM
Dennis Lin @sdutdennislin
Sources: The Padres have agreed to trade Drew Pomeranz to the Red Sox.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/jul/14/padres-trade-drew-pomeranz-red-sox/

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:07 PM
@EvanDrellich

Source: Espinoza is going to the Padres as at least part of the trade for Drew Pomeranz.

**** this ****!

Green_Monster
07-14-2016, 06:07 PM
Espinoza is gone. Wow.

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:09 PM
Trade ****ing Kopech! Not Espinoza!

AI
07-14-2016, 06:11 PM
WHAT THE ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i!!!!!!!

Raidaz4Life
07-14-2016, 06:11 PM
I'm not a huge fan of taking pitchers from the Padres

Green_Monster
07-14-2016, 06:19 PM
It may be a one for one swap.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 06:24 PM
Hard to complain when you keep Moncada, Benintendi, Devers & Kopech. (Add Swihart) to add a 6'6 240 pound left handed TORP with 2.5 years of control.

If all that's going the other way is Espinoza than I'm extremely happy. (Throw ins don't count)

Sign Groome and things are really looking up!

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:24 PM
We just traded for a ****ing one year wonder. This guy better turn into Max Scherzer or i'm going to have DDs head.

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:27 PM
Hard to complain when you keep Moncada, Benintendi, Devers & Kopech. (Add Swihart) to add a 6'6 240 pound left handed TORP with 2.5 years of control.

If all that's going the other way is Espinoza than I'm extremely happy. (Throw ins don't count)

Sign Groome and things are really looking up!

DON'T. EVEN. GO. THERE! We could have traded Kopech for this guy! But we had to trade Espinoza!

Super.
07-14-2016, 06:32 PM
DON'T. EVEN. GO. THERE! We could have traded Kopech for this guy! But we had to trade Espinoza!
And you know this? Whose your source?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

bruins>habs
07-14-2016, 06:33 PM
Traded unknowns for a legit guy. Who cares?

Green_Monster
07-14-2016, 06:35 PM
It is indeed a 1 for 1 deal according to Jon Morosi.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 06:36 PM
DON'T. EVEN. GO. THERE! We could have traded Kopech for this guy! But we had to trade Espinoza!

No we couldn't have or we would have. Look at Pomeranz numbers, he's been coming into his own the last 3 years straight.

He's the furthest thing from a one year wonder. Just gotta watch how we manage his innings the rest of this season. He looked great in the All-Star game to! For what that's worth...

Oakmont_4
07-14-2016, 06:39 PM
You guys are ridiculous. This is a good trade. Espinoza though promising, is far from a sure thing. We got as sure a thing you can get. A lefty. An All Star. Who's young and has control. Yeah, its going to cost a top prospect. I'll do it every time.

The Kopech comment being the most ridiculous. Obviously we couldn't or we would have...uh...duhhh

BoSox47
07-14-2016, 06:39 PM
Could have got a better return for Espinoza. Surprised we traded him for a guy who is touching 100 inning pitched for the first time in his career. Wouldnt be surprised to see this guy have a bad 2nd half due to a tired arm and a new, less pitcher friendly ballpark.

papipapsmanny
07-14-2016, 06:44 PM
So many angles to this. The one for one trade makes me like it, but Pomeranz success has been limited and peripherals say probably overstated.

I just hope they pursued other avenues in terms of trading Espinoza for a big rotation starter before trading him away.

People really fell more in love with Espinoza than I did. I actually like Kopech better. He hasn't done anything of substance yet at a level yet to where I would care enough have what success he has had. Not to say he won't be a star, but he has a long way to go.

Oakmont_4
07-14-2016, 06:44 PM
Could have got a better return for Espinoza. Surprised we traded him for a guy who is touching 100 inning pitched for the first time in his career. Wouldnt be surprised to see this guy have a bad 2nd half due to a tired arm and a new, less pitcher friendly ballpark.

Yeah? Who? If you haven't noticed, the price of SP has sky rocketed. Do you think we just ignored better players and were like "yeah, I could get a better guy, but let's just go after Pomeranz"...

Soxfan85
07-14-2016, 06:44 PM
Understand the folks who aren't happy to see Espinoza go, but how many SP prospects look great at 18 years old, don't pan out?
@JMastrodonato

+1

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 06:49 PM
Lol. People want pitching and the big names, but they don't want to give up the big prospects to get them. Except in this day and age, that's the cost of pitching.

You gotta pay to play people. Think about why you're mad. You want pitching? But you don't wanna give up anything relevant. But you want pitching. Still, don't wanna pay for it though.

If you're in the GM's chair with that attitude than you'll find yourself at a standstill, winding up doing absolutely nothing and going the distance with Buchholz and Kelly continuing to let you down.

Thank you D.D. I have a feeling you're not done yet.

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:52 PM
Lol. People want pitching and the big names, but they don't want to give up the big prospects to get them. Except in this day and age, that's the cost of pitching.

You gotta pay to play people. Think about why you're mad. You want pitching? But you don't wanna give up anything relevant. But you want pitching. Still, don't wanna pay for it though.

If you're in the GM's chair with that attitude than you'll find yourself at a standstill, winding up doing absolutely nothing and going the distance with Buchholz and Kelly continuing to let you down.

Thank you D.D. I have a feeling you're not done yet.

Ever heard of the saying "The best moves are the ones you don't make". I have bad feeling.....

j-bay
07-14-2016, 06:54 PM
This was a bad market. This is what i feared. Dang it DD....

The Allen
07-14-2016, 06:55 PM
I'm very okay with this deal. One for one swap with an 18 year old for a guy who has been on this year and solid for the past two with control. And we keep all the other top prospects. Sure it would've been nice to deal Swihart + Ball but that would've never happened...and it didn't.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 06:55 PM
Ever heard of the saying "The best moves are the ones you don't make". I have bad feeling.....

Yah I have, but when Clay Buchholz is the alternative fall back option than even a trade for buddies grandma would safice.

papipapsmanny
07-14-2016, 06:57 PM
Imagine what we could have gotten in return for Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen, etc.

No Kimbrell... ok closers are pretty easy to find. That package definitely could have gotten a very TORP under control.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 07:01 PM
Drew Pomeranz

2.47 era
102 IP
67 Hits
115 K's

Yes, so terrible. Espinoza is a guarantee too.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 07:05 PM
I'd like to think this opens up a real possibility in E-Dro headlining a mega deal to acquire another TORP.

Unless we're rolling with 3 lefties...

j-bay
07-14-2016, 07:05 PM
Drew Pomeranz

2.47 era
102 IP
67 Hits
115 K's

Yes, so terrible. Espinoza is a guarantee too.

Key word is this year. And was the last great Padres starting pitcher besides Peavy. Kevin Brown?

Station 13
07-14-2016, 07:12 PM
2+ year of control, DD did okay.

Bo Sox Fan
07-14-2016, 07:14 PM
Key word is this year. And was the last great Padres starting pitcher besides Peavy. Kevin Brown?

Today the Red Sox lost Anderson Espinoza while inheriting Drew Pomeranz & Jason Groome.

I'd say it's a great day.

ciaban
07-14-2016, 07:18 PM
Trade ****ing Kopech! Not Espinoza!

I think you mean Brian Johnson, that would have been closer to fair value.

redsox0717
07-14-2016, 07:21 PM
Interesting article on Pomeranz: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/drew-pomeranz-now-with-50-more-pitches/

Basically, he isn't a two pitch pitcher anymore and now uses a very effective cutter. He is bound to regress a tad for sure, but I think he can help us out a lot if his arm can hold up.

ciaban
07-14-2016, 07:24 PM
Drew Pomeranz

2.47 era
102 IP
67 Hits
115 K's

Yes, so terrible. Espinoza is a guarantee too.

He has a 3.12 fip (still great) but is going from one of if not the best pitchers park in the NL to one of the better hitters parks in the AL.

chomaru
07-14-2016, 07:26 PM
This reminds me of when DD traded for Scherzer as he was entering his prime.

BoSox47
07-14-2016, 07:58 PM
Yeah? Who? If you haven't noticed, the price of SP has sky rocketed. Do you think we just ignored better players and were like "yeah, I could get a better guy, but let's just go after Pomeranz"...

I wouldnt have done the deal at all. We vastly overpaid for a guy who is throwing over 100 inning in his career and is moving from a pitchers park to a hitters park.

-Lavigne43-
07-14-2016, 08:00 PM
**** Dave Dombrowski. This is depressing. So much for him not destroying the farm system. At least acquire guys with more than one ****ing half season of success in a pitching haven. Total joke of a trade.

Green_Monster
07-14-2016, 08:01 PM
I think you mean Brian Johnson, that would have been closer to fair value.

Um, no.

The_Great_8
07-14-2016, 08:01 PM
I like this deal for us. We were desperate to upgrade our rotation and got one of the better arms available. I know it's hard to give up a prospect like Espinoza, but he's years away from helping the Sox, and there's certainly no guarantee an 18 year old will continue to develop and become what a lot of you assume he will become. I think having Groome likely in the fold lessens the pain in moving a potential talent like Espinoza.

I think getting Pomeranz is a big win for us now, and though we lose Espinoza, we replace him at the same time by getting Groome signed. I don't think this deal goes down without a Groome deal already in place.

BoSox47
07-14-2016, 08:04 PM
You guys are ridiculous. This is a good trade. Espinoza though promising, is far from a sure thing. We got as sure a thing you can get. A lefty. An All Star. Who's young and has control. Yeah, its going to cost a top prospect. I'll do it every time.

The Kopech comment being the most ridiculous. Obviously we couldn't or we would have...uh...duhhh

The problem is trading your best pitching prospect and number 15 ovrall prospect in th league for a guy who has never thrown over 100 innings. If I am trading a #15 overall prospect, I'm getting a guy who is more of a sure thing as opposed to a guy who has been pitching good for a 3 month stretch and has never pitched a full season.

-Lavigne43-
07-14-2016, 08:08 PM
@JMastrodonato

+1

We have not had any pitching prospects anywhere remotely similar to Espinoza in the 10 years I have been closely following our farm. Closest comparison is if we traded Xander when he was 18. I mean ****, if you're willing to trade Espinoza then go for the ****ing Jose Fernandez's of the world.

This is like the D'backs trading Swanson for Shelby Miller. It's ****ing stupid.

BoSox47
07-14-2016, 08:13 PM
I would have rather kept Espinoza and not made the playoffs this year than trade him for Pomeranz. Espinoza is going to be a legit number 1 starter. We just traded him for a guy who will be a number 3.

The Allen
07-14-2016, 08:22 PM
So Eduardo Rodriguez for Aroldis Chapman now?

j-bay
07-14-2016, 08:38 PM
Now i feel sad....

celticsman2009
07-14-2016, 08:46 PM
Do we need pitching help: Yes

Am I ok with parting with a top prospect for pitching help: Yes

Do I like Drew Pomeranz: Yes

Is this a good trade: No

The whole not exceeding 100 IP yet, 5 different teams in 5 seasons, Pitching in a pitcher friendly NL park and now moving to the AL and the AL East. DD better be right. I want an E-Rod and Swihart package now for a more legit pitcher.

j-bay
07-14-2016, 08:58 PM
Good god i don't like this. The guy has already pitched a **** load of innings.

j-bay
07-14-2016, 09:09 PM
Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo
Text from scout on Espinoza: "Best pitching prospect I've seen in last four years. Sellers market."

BAH. SON OF A *****!!!!

Rivera
07-14-2016, 09:48 PM
I was okay with this. I like Drew and we have 2 years of control.

But I really value lavi and what he says. The strength of his dislike really concerns me

papipapsmanny
07-14-2016, 10:08 PM
My problem isn't trading Espinoza but I feel if you throw his name out there then a lot of SPs become available. With that said too many people are acting like he is some guarantee to be a quality SP in the MLB.

He is 18 in Grenville and putting okay numbers up, but again is 18. In comparison Kopech put up much better numbers last year in greenville in about the same amount of innings, the only difference him being 19.

If Pomeranz is anything like he has been this year for the next 5 years the deal is a steal no matter what happens with Espinoza, because in the end we traded a complete high potential unknown for a MLB starter. This was a 1-1 swap involving a prospect in Low A for a guy pitching at least like a 2 this year. I just can't call it a bad trade.

Pomeranz was successful last season, he has learned a cutter. The K-rates are there, and the GB% is there. He just needs to get the walks down a bit. I'm okay with this trade.

My only concern is what has been my concern since we got DD. Gutting the farm, hopefully this trade was to protect Benintendi, Kopech, Moncada from being traded.

I am still on board with trading Devers I just don't see a position for him here (unless he secretly plays catcher).

If Buchholz, E-Rod, Devers, Owens, Chavis (again where would he fit) are packaged for another young TORP guy I would be okay with that, then be patient with the farm.

Benintendi isn't far and Moncada isn't either (he is going to 3B). I could see Shaw and Travis platooning at 1B as soon as next season. We still have Swihart who I don't believe is truly done with the C position.

We are still in great shape, and even better shape if Pomeranz is a 3+ WAR pitcher with us. We really just need another good SP for you to be comfortble with the rotation

BoSox47
07-14-2016, 10:16 PM
My problem isn't trading Espinoza but I feel if you throw his name out there then a lot of SPs become available. With that said too many people are acting like he is some guarantee to be a quality SP in the MLB.

He is 18 in Grenville and putting okay numbers up, but again is 18. In comparison Kopech put up much better numbers last year in greenville in about the same amount of innings, the only difference him being 19.

If Pomeranz is anything like he has been this year for the next 5 years the deal is a steal no matter what happens with Espinoza, because in the end we traded a complete high potential unknown for a MLB starter. This was a 1-1 swap involving a prospect in Low A for a guy pitching at least like a 2 this year. I just can't call it a bad trade.

Pomeranz was successful last season, he has learned a cutter. The K-rates are there, and the GB% is there. He just needs to get the walks down a bit. I'm okay with this trade.

My only concern is what has been my concern since we got DD. Gutting the farm, hopefully this trade was to protect Benintendi, Kopech, Moncada from being traded.

I am still on board with trading Devers I just don't see a position for him here (unless he secretly plays catcher).

If Buchholz, E-Rod, Devers, Owens, Chavis (again where would he fit) are packaged for another young TORP guy I would be okay with that, then be patient with the farm.

Benintendi isn't far and Moncada isn't either (he is going to 3B). I could see Shaw and Travis platooning at 1B as soon as next season. We still have Swihart who I don't believe is truly done with the C position.

We are still in great shape, and even better shape if Pomeranz is a 3+ WAR pitcher with us. We really just need another good SP for you to be comfortble with the rotation

You know he was in the bullpen last year for 44 appearances to 9 starts? Also this is his first time in 6 years pitching over 100 innings, never mind actually getting to 200.

Fla.SticKy
07-14-2016, 10:23 PM
I can't believe this bull****, NO WAY I woulda let Espinoza go with out a big name coming back. In fact, he headlines our side of any major trade (Moncada almost untouchable). Very depressing news, I hope this is one of those times that people tell me "remember that time you went crazy for nothing when.....". I feel like we are so gonna regret this, I don't care what anybody says.

thomass
07-14-2016, 10:28 PM
Don't worry Red Sox fans. If Espinoza turns out to be great, you can just give him $300 million when he becomes a free agent.

Pittz
07-14-2016, 10:41 PM
My problem isn't trading Espinoza but I feel if you throw his name out there then a lot of SPs become available. With that said too many people are acting like he is some guarantee to be a quality SP in the MLB.

He is 18 in Grenville and putting okay numbers up, but again is 18. In comparison Kopech put up much better numbers last year in greenville in about the same amount of innings, the only difference him being 19.

If Pomeranz is anything like he has been this year for the next 5 years the deal is a steal no matter what happens with Espinoza, because in the end we traded a complete high potential unknown for a MLB starter. This was a 1-1 swap involving a prospect in Low A for a guy pitching at least like a 2 this year. I just can't call it a bad trade.

Pomeranz was successful last season, he has learned a cutter. The K-rates are there, and the GB% is there. He just needs to get the walks down a bit. I'm okay with this trade.

My only concern is what has been my concern since we got DD. Gutting the farm, hopefully this trade was to protect Benintendi, Kopech, Moncada from being traded.

I am still on board with trading Devers I just don't see a position for him here (unless he secretly plays catcher).

If Buchholz, E-Rod, Devers, Owens, Chavis (again where would he fit) are packaged for another young TORP guy I would be okay with that, then be patient with the farm.

Benintendi isn't far and Moncada isn't either (he is going to 3B). I could see Shaw and Travis platooning at 1B as soon as next season. We still have Swihart who I don't believe is truly done with the C position.

We are still in great shape, and even better shape if Pomeranz is a 3+ WAR pitcher with us. We really just need another good SP for you to be comfortble with the rotation

Yeah, this is largely how I feel. It hurts to lose Espinoza, but a one-for-one where I believe we're getting a 2 back makes the immediate reward outweigh Espinoza's potential minus his risk.

soxer04
07-14-2016, 11:34 PM
I'm indifferent but a little negative on the deal realizing I haven't seen much of either. IMO we had a chance for Hellickson- not very good- but he could have been a decent bottom of the order guy without giving up much.

I really wanted / want a big push for a strong number 2 starter or an ace - obviously someone like Fernandez. I'd have backed up the truck for the off-season. But next year we also need badly a left-handed bat with at least some power but that hit for average that could be a legit type of 3 or 4 hitter.

Now we just lost a prime chip to get an ace/or high-tier #2, and a prime left-handed bat such as Freeman. I'm just hopeful that Pomeranz is high-tier 2. He's young - I don't worry as much about innings just a little.

I just think that DD is bleeding the farm trying to win so bad this year too. Pomeranz had got to work out or DD is going to have come up with some awesome trades in the future for us to be where I would have expected over the next 5 years after this year- and that's a WORLD SERIES contender, not just a playoff contender. If Pomeranz is more of a 3, we have little chance of being a W/S contender this year or other years without some awesome future trades. That's why the move to me is a little frustrating. Though not totally against it. He could be really good.

Fla.SticKy
07-15-2016, 12:19 AM
You want Fernandez or a big name like that, you better understand the language when they spit out the name Moncada. Without Espinoza he will almost assuredly have to be dealt in any blockbuster deal for that caliber player. I really hope I'm wrong about this, but I think we ****** up today.

soxer04
07-15-2016, 12:30 AM
You want Fernandez or a big name like that, you better understand the language when they spit out the name Moncada. Without Espinoza he will almost assuredly have to be dealt in any blockbuster deal for that caliber player. I really hope I'm wrong about this, but I think we ****** up today.

I don't agree. Espinoza at 18 yo is rated 15 by BA. Moncada is the one prospect I would never move. But package deals depending on how mnay you give can get a lot of a terrific pitchers too.

Tell me what you think of Beni by the way? what's your projection? How about Devers and Kopech? You think any of these guys will be any good? You think Beni is an impact player next year or year after? Will he sit in the minors another year?

What do you think of Swihart and ERod? Sub-par future players?

-Lavigne43-
07-15-2016, 12:45 AM
My problem isn't trading Espinoza but I feel if you throw his name out there then a lot of SPs become available. With that said too many people are acting like he is some guarantee to be a quality SP in the MLB.

He is 18 in Grenville and putting okay numbers up, but again is 18. In comparison Kopech put up much better numbers last year in greenville in about the same amount of innings, the only difference him being 19.

If Pomeranz is anything like he has been this year for the next 5 years the deal is a steal no matter what happens with Espinoza, because in the end we traded a complete high potential unknown for a MLB starter. This was a 1-1 swap involving a prospect in Low A for a guy pitching at least like a 2 this year. I just can't call it a bad trade.

Pomeranz was successful last season, he has learned a cutter. The K-rates are there, and the GB% is there. He just needs to get the walks down a bit. I'm okay with this trade.

My only concern is what has been my concern since we got DD. Gutting the farm, hopefully this trade was to protect Benintendi, Kopech, Moncada from being traded.

I am still on board with trading Devers I just don't see a position for him here (unless he secretly plays catcher).

If Buchholz, E-Rod, Devers, Owens, Chavis (again where would he fit) are packaged for another young TORP guy I would be okay with that, then be patient with the farm.

Benintendi isn't far and Moncada isn't either (he is going to 3B). I could see Shaw and Travis platooning at 1B as soon as next season. We still have Swihart who I don't believe is truly done with the C position.

We are still in great shape, and even better shape if Pomeranz is a 3+ WAR pitcher with us. We really just need another good SP for you to be comfortble with the rotation

We only have 2 years of control with Pomeranz, not 5.

Espinoza is the most advanced young pitcher that we've ever had in my time following the system. His performance in Greenville is much better than his era indicates. He has better peripherals then Kopech had at that level.

Pomeranz has all the makings of a guy who will regress in the 2nd half. ERA overperforming his peripherals (even though his K rate is very good this year), low BABIP, abnormally high LOB%, never has thrown over 100 innings in a season, and pitching in the most pitching friendly park in the most pitching friendly division in the NL. This isn't a proven guy, Pomeranz is just as much of a gamble as a prospect. This is a career year for a guy who has never pitched at this level before. This could easily be a flash in the pan year for him, ala 2010 Clay Buchholz. You DON'T trade the best pitching prospect that you've had in a long time for a someone who is not a proven commodity at the big league level.

This should cement your concerns about DD. He is so eager to trade to trade prospects for MLB players that he ends up not having the patience to get proper value in a trade. It's ridiculous that Pomeranz was the best he could do in a trade involving Espinoza.

AI
07-15-2016, 07:09 AM
What could have Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje gotten us this offseason? ;)

Oakmont_4
07-15-2016, 07:23 AM
Anyone who thinks Espinoza would have opened the doors for a Sale, Fernandez, etc.. Type pitcher is out of their minds. Yes, he'd probably be part of the package, but we'd also be giving up Moncada/Benintendi +++. That's a trade I'm unwilling to make.

Let's sit down and think real quick. We're looking at a 4 year window right now. Looking past that is pointless at the moment. The goal right now is to be as competitive as possible over the next 4 years. As promising as Espinoza is, over the next 4 years, his MLB impact would be minimal, if any. Over the next 4 years Pomeranz will be either a solid starter or bullpen piece for atleast 2 more years past this season.

We signed Groome and essentially replaced our top pitching prospect with Groome who is now a top 2 pitching prospect for us. Looking at our team from this perspective, our farm system remains the same (Groome replaces Espinoza) and our MLB club is better.

The trade makes sense. I understand everyone is high on Espinoza, but honestly, he has a long way to go before he even thinks about becoming an ace. Right now he has 1, maybe 2 plus pitches. An ace needs 3 plus pitches and another offering generally. Is he going to develop that over the next 4 years and implement it at the TOTR in the next 4 years. Highly, highly doubtful.

Throwing Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje is not getting a Sale/Fernandez without either Moncada or Benintendi in the deal as well. Just not going to happen.

MagicBucsSox
07-15-2016, 08:11 AM
Lmao You guys are complaining about Espinoza the Sameeeeeeeee way you complained about Lars Anderson years ago. DD made the right call

CeltBruinSoxFan
07-15-2016, 08:15 AM
Espinoza is a great prospect that throws very hard. Pomeranz is a nice SP with #3 potential on this staff. I'm okay with this just because we are close to signing Jason Groome. And I think DD and the RS are thinking the same way. Espinoza was about 4-5 years away from making an impact. Pomeranz is ready to make an impact for the next 4-5 years (if things go right and he can be signed back . . . you know, that stuff).

Espinoza can be the next Pedro, he might be the next carlos Martinez (who is good, not great), or he might be the next Daniel Bard. We know what we got with Pomeranz, we don't know what we have with Espinoza. I'm okay with this deal. DD has done a great job so far, all before the deadline when prices sky-rocket.

soxer04
07-15-2016, 08:39 AM
Anyone who thinks Espinoza would have opened the doors for a Sale, Fernandez, etc.. Type pitcher is out of their minds. Yes, he'd probably be part of the package, but we'd also be giving up Moncada/Benintendi +++. That's a trade I'm unwilling to make.

Let's sit down and think real quick. We're looking at a 4 year window right now. Looking past that is pointless at the moment. The goal right now is to be as competitive as possible over the next 4 years. As promising as Espinoza is, over the next 4 years, his MLB impact would be minimal, if any. Over the next 4 years Pomeranz will be either a solid starter or bullpen piece for atleast 2 more years past this season.

We signed Groome and essentially replaced our top pitching prospect with Groome who is now a top 2 pitching prospect for us. Looking at our team from this perspective, our farm system remains the same (Groome replaces Espinoza) and our MLB club is better.

The trade makes sense. I understand everyone is high on Espinoza, but honestly, he has a long way to go before he even thinks about becoming an ace. Right now he has 1, maybe 2 plus pitches. An ace needs 3 plus pitches and another offering generally. Is he going to develop that over the next 4 years and implement it at the TOTR in the next 4 years. Highly, highly doubtful.

Throwing Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje is not getting a Sale/Fernandez without either Moncada or Benintendi in the deal as well. Just not going to happen.

Okay -- Beni and Espinoza. What else for an ace? What orther players.

I am concerned that Pomeranz is just a 3. I wants us to be in the W/S hunt. Without a legit number 2 and frankly our bullpen is not so good (I hope Ziegler is real real good) too we're not going to get there unless we have two premiere playoff starters. "Good enough" to be competitive doesn't warrant trading real real real promising players and "just going to the playoffs." You also want a chance to be a perennial w/s contender considering the talent we had in the minors. Every now and then we should significantly "win a trade" which we haven't done.

And as for next year (looking at the 4 year window )- we need a Papi replacement - a left-handed bat. Preferably a young guy. What's our chances of being w/s contenders especially without an upper tier ace or number 2 and without a real good left-handed bat for next year? How good do you think Beni will be next year and the years after to carry that load? He probably won't be able to, right?

If we could have gotten an upper tier number 2- great. I hope Pomeranz is at least a solid 2. Then if he is- he's worth it or unless the other 3 we have two legit 1/2's. I expect Price to fix himself. IS Wright/Porcello a playoff caliber 2?

Oakmont_4
07-15-2016, 09:56 AM
Okay -- Beni and Espinoza. What else for an ace? What orther players.

I am concerned that Pomeranz is just a 3. I wants us to be in the W/S hunt. Without a legit number 2 and frankly our bullpen is not so good (I hope Ziegler is real real good) too we're not going to get there unless we have two premiere playoff starters. "Good enough" to be competitive doesn't warrant trading real real real promising players and "just going to the playoffs." You also want a chance to be a perennial w/s contender considering the talent we had in the minors. Every now and then we should significantly "win a trade" which we haven't done.

And as for next year (looking at the 4 year window )- we need a Papi replacement - a left-handed bat. Preferably a young guy. What's our chances of being w/s contenders especially without an upper tier ace or number 2 and without a real good left-handed bat for next year? How good do you think Beni will be next year and the years after to carry that load? He probably won't be able to, right?

If we could have gotten an upper tier number 2- great. I hope Pomeranz is at least a solid 2. Then if he is- he's worth it or unless the other 3 we have two legit 1/2's. I expect Price to fix himself. IS Wright/Porcello a playoff caliber 2?

You're talking about Espinoza, Benintendi and 3 other mid tier prospects. Talk about gutting a farm system... No thanks

Pomeranz IS a #3 starter. So what?

We should be able to trade for another reliever without giving up too much.

We don't need 2 premier starters. Who were KC's 2 premier starters the past 2 seasons?

Looking ahead the next 4 years, we essentially only need to fill 2 positions. DH/1B and pitching.

The rest of the infield is set. SS- Check. (X) 2B - check (Pedey/Moncada) 3B - Check (Shaw)

Outfield is set with Bradley-Betts-Holt-Benintendi/Swihart

C is set Vazquez/Swihart

SP - 1. Price - check, 2. Needs to be filled, 3. Porcello/Pomeranz - Check 4. Wright - Check 5. Rodriguez - check

BP - As with any team this is going to be a constant shuffle. But Kimbrel as the CL - Check.

So forecasting ahead we will need to address a #2 pitcher and 1B/DH (the easiest position to fill). These can easily be filled with Free Agents. Espinoza does not affect this plan at all

Oakmont_4
07-15-2016, 09:59 AM
Espinoza is a great prospect that throws very hard. Pomeranz is a nice SP with #3 potential on this staff. I'm okay with this just because we are close to signing Jason Groome. And I think DD and the RS are thinking the same way. Espinoza was about 4-5 years away from making an impact. Pomeranz is ready to make an impact for the next 4-5 years (if things go right and he can be signed back . . . you know, that stuff).

Espinoza can be the next Pedro, he might be the next carlos Martinez (who is good, not great), or he might be the next Daniel Bard. We know what we got with Pomeranz, we don't know what we have with Espinoza. I'm okay with this deal. DD has done a great job so far, all before the deadline when prices sky-rocket.

Said this last night. Espinoza has all the makings of Bard part 2.

BoSox47
07-15-2016, 10:10 AM
Said this last night. Espinoza has all the makings of Bard part 2.

Or he could be a legit ace, nothing that pomeranz has a chance to do. Pomeranz is a career 3.95 ERA 3.8 BB/9 pitcher who is going from a national league to an American League park and having to face DH's. He has a .240 BABIP and a 80.8 LOB% this year which are rather lucky and will likely balance out.

Oakmont_4
07-15-2016, 10:30 AM
Or he could be a legit ace, nothing that pomeranz has a chance to do. Pomeranz is a career 3.95 ERA 3.8 BB/9 pitcher who is going from a national league to an American League park and having to face DH's. He has a .240 BABIP and a 80.8 LOB% this year which are rather lucky and will likely balance out.

Yeah he does. But it isn't going to be within the next 4 years. So how does he help us in the immediate and near future?

Oakmont_4
07-15-2016, 10:43 AM
I see no reason, with our offense this year, that a combination of Price/Pomeranz/Wright/Porcello can't be a good enough playoff rotation IF we solidify the BP.

Obviously that means we still have some work to do. But if Kimbrel returns and is back to what he was and the addition of Ziegler who I think will be solid, we really only need to add 1 more BP piece to make a run this year. It shouldn't cost too much to acquire said BP piece.

My only hesitation is the 2 best BP players that will probably be available are on the Yankees. I'd love to add Miller and/or Chapman. I just doubt the Yankees agree to trade with the Red Sox for those 2 pieces.

If somehow they did, would Buch and Kopech be worth it for both sides? Chapman is a rental and the Yankees would have a shot at bringing him back next year if they were so inclined. So essentially it's Kopech who's probably as good a prospect they could expect for a guy like Miller. Buch is a shot in the dark, but he has to go.

Imagine a back end of Ziegler-Miller-Chapman-Kimbrel? I would have zero concerns with our starting rotation is that's how we were closing out games. And I'd certainly have no issue trading a top pitching prospect like Kopech to make it happen.

BoSox47
07-15-2016, 10:51 AM
Yeah he does. But it isn't going to be within the next 4 years. So how does he help us in the immediate and near future?

I just dont think you trade a potential ace no matter how far out he is, for a #3 starter.

StryderSox
07-15-2016, 10:56 AM
I get the concern for a lot of Sox fans in giving up our top pitching prospect but I ask you this..... When was the last time the Sox were able to develop a top of the rotation pitcher not named Lester??? Kid is only 18 and although he has a huge upside we dont exactly have a good history of bringing these kind of pitching prospects to fruitition in Boston.

My concern in this deal is not that we gave up our top pitching prospect but more so if Pomeranz has another 100 innings in him this year and if he can put up numbers in the AL East that are at least good enough to make him a solid number 3 in the rotation.

j-bay
07-15-2016, 11:16 AM
You know after cooling down a bit last night and thinking about it....I'm still upset with it! Drew better get us to at least the divisonal round. Another reason is if you want a #2 in the offseason, then teams will hold us for ransom. So knowing some of the guys here, you want a #2? Too ****ing bad. Because it will likely cost Benintendi or Moncada. So I don't want to hear any *****ing about a #2.

The Allen
07-15-2016, 04:17 PM
Anyone know when his first start will be? Not debuting against the Yankees.

j-bay
07-15-2016, 04:23 PM
Anyone know when his first start will be? Not debuting against the Yankees.

Wednesday vs the Giants

Soxfan85
07-15-2016, 05:21 PM
Sample of his starts against SF before the trade

April 25th VS SF 4 IP| 3 ER| 1 HR| 3 BB| 6 SO Took the loss

May 18th VS SF 6 IP| 2 ER| 1 HR| 2 BB| 5 SO Took the loss

May 23rd VS SF 7 IP| 0 ER| 0 HR| 4 BB| 4 SO Took the loss

Also the Lineup against him .275/ .363/ .563/ .925

soxer04
07-15-2016, 07:05 PM
You're talking about Espinoza, Benintendi and 3 other mid tier prospects. Talk about gutting a farm system... No thanks

Pomeranz IS a #3 starter. So what?

We should be able to trade for another reliever without giving up too much.

We don't need 2 premier starters. Who were KC's 2 premier starters the past 2 seasons?

Looking ahead the next 4 years, we essentially only need to fill 2 positions. DH/1B and pitching.

The rest of the infield is set. SS- Check. (X) 2B - check (Pedey/Moncada) 3B - Check (Shaw)

Outfield is set with Bradley-Betts-Holt-Benintendi/Swihart

C is set Vazquez/Swihart

SP - 1. Price - check, 2. Needs to be filled, 3. Porcello/Pomeranz - Check 4. Wright - Check 5. Rodriguez - check

BP - As with any team this is going to be a constant shuffle. But Kimbrel as the CL - Check.

So forecasting ahead we will need to address a #2 pitcher and 1B/DH (the easiest position to fill). These can easily be filled with Free Agents. Espinoza does not affect this plan at all

I’m not sure gutting the farm for a guy like Fernandez is so bad. Baumgartner dominated the World Series in 2014. How many 2nd tier prospects do I hold onto because I didn’t want to trade for a Baumgartner? And I’m not sure what the “3 mid-tier” prospects would be. Is a guy ranked 30 or 35 mid-tier? What is Brentz etc?

And I hope your question about Pomeranz being a number 3 starter was just a question and not the declaration that he more-than-likely will be. If that were the case I’d dislike the trade. And I’m not sure why you mention the Royals bullpen from last year as if this Red Sox bullpen has anything in common with that bullpen other than we call them both “bullpens.” Our current bullpen is nowhere near on the same planet as the last year’s Royals. The only way any Red Sox fan could feel they are close is if they wear their Red-And-White ready-made Red Sox Goggles bought inside Fenway Park.


That’s why a number 3 isn’t good enough. We don’t have the Royals bullpen. Until we do – and every one comes back healthy and contributes in a dominant manner – then the number 3 starter isn’t good enough. When we’ve won we’ve had 2 starters that were 1/2 combo or 2/2 combo in 2004, 2007 and 2013.

And as far as the next 4 years – imo Hanley getting older is a huge question regardless if he is a DH or at 1B. SO whether he is at 1b or DH – the other position is in question. We don’t have a 1b or DH. Then we don’t have that good of 3B. Certainly in 2018 Moncada fills one of the voids. Maybe at the end of 2017. And I think the world of Holt – I think he can be pretty good at 3b once Beni comes. But will beni come early in year or the 2nd half? And as Beni and Moncada get better, Pedroia will get worse- and so will Hanley. Will our catchers do anything? Will Travis Shaw or Sam Travis improve?

And how about our pitching? Sure Price as the ACE, then have 3 pitchers – Porcello, Pomeranz and Wright are any of them 2’s? We won 3 titles having 2 pitchers that were a combination of either 1 or 2’s- now all of a sudden that doesn’t count? Well- I agree it might not count if we get a dominant bullpen. But how did DD do in Detroit building that dominant bullpen? He got Kimbrel – while he was an all-star – he has been overrated. He got Carson Smith. I hear he might be back for next year. How often in the 1st year do pitchers come back and are matching their former-self?

I just want to reiterate I am not against the trade (though a bit negative on it but mroeso if Pomeranz is not a 2 but a 3 or worse and we don't get a terrific bullpen.). I just would have preferred getting a much better pitcher even if it had to be a package including Espinoza.

soxer04
07-15-2016, 07:11 PM
I get the concern for a lot of Sox fans in giving up our top pitching prospect but I ask you this..... When was the last time the Sox were able to develop a top of the rotation pitcher not named Lester??? Kid is only 18 and although he has a huge upside we dont exactly have a good history of bringing these kind of pitching prospects to fruitition in Boston.

My concern in this deal is not that we gave up our top pitching prospect but more so if Pomeranz has another 100 innings in him this year and if he can put up numbers in the AL East that are at least good enough to make him a solid number 3 in the rotation.

When you say the words "at least," I cringe. We have (or did have) a top-tier farm system. To "settle" for being "at least pretty good" imo is the wrong way to go.

And I'm not sure what you're point is about the last time the sox developed a pitcher. No one in a long, long time was thought of as highly as Espinoza was. So what is your solution? Don't draft high round pitchers? Or only look to get them in trades? Give up trying on your own to develop? You'll want to trade both Kopech this year or next and Groome next year too?

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-15-2016, 11:02 PM
This is worse than the Lackey trade. I don't give a ****ing **** about needing a starter. You don't give up your best pitching prospect for an average #3 starter. He's never gone over 100 innings, and sure he's had a nice season in the best pitching park in the NL. I'm sorry Dombrowski, I hope we win the pennant and WS because I won't forgive this colossal **** up.

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-15-2016, 11:04 PM
Hard to complain when you keep Moncada, Benintendi, Devers & Kopech. (Add Swihart) to add a 6'6 240 pound left handed TORP with 2.5 years of control.

If all that's going the other way is Espinoza than I'm extremely happy. (Throw ins don't count)

Sign Groome and things are really looking up!

I'd give up Devers and Swihart easily before I'd want to move Anderson Espinoza. You win with developing pitching. Who gives a **** about his size and weight. He's never proven that he can start long term.

BoSox47
07-16-2016, 09:43 AM
People are calling this guy a TORP after he pitched well for 3 months? I Would be surprised if he has below a 3.75 era here for the rest of the year. With his high walk totals, low BABIP, and left on base totals, Red Sox fans have an unpleasant surprise coming if they think he is going to continue to be a mid 2's ERA pitcher for the rest of the year.

He is more of a number 3 pitcher than a number 2.

Bo Sox Fan
07-16-2016, 10:36 AM
This is worse than the Lackey trade. I don't give a ****ing **** about needing a starter. You don't give up your best pitching prospect for an average #3 starter. He's never gone over 100 innings, and sure he's had a nice season in the best pitching park in the NL. I'm sorry Dombrowski, I hope we win the pennant and WS because I won't forgive this colossal **** up.

Waaaaaah. Worst case scenario is he winds up in the bullpen and you're stuck with an elite left handed pen arm, where he's thrived the last few years.

Highly doubt it ever gets to that point.

soxer04
07-16-2016, 10:54 AM
People are calling this guy a TORP after he pitched well for 3 months? I Would be surprised if he has below a 3.75 era here for the rest of the year. With his high walk totals, low BABIP, and left on base totals, Red Sox fans have an unpleasant surprise coming if they think he is going to continue to be a mid 2's ERA pitcher for the rest of the year.

He is more of a number 3 pitcher than a number 2.

I don't know if he is a TORP. I understand he was at one time a 5th draft pick overall. I know that he is averaging 3.6 walks while not so hot that is the same for example as Lester was in 2010 Lester when he was 4th in Cy Young voting with a 3.25 ERA. To be a 2 - you don't need to have a 2 ERA. John lackey's ERA - he only had 1 year of his best at 3.01 - every other year it was 3.5 and above. Including 2013 with the Red Sox.

The SOX traded an incredible talent in the low minors. Why would they trade jim and get a guy they felt only showed promise for 3 months? Because more than likely they felt get was good in Oakland too. How often have you or I watched him pitch and do you consider 27 years old - an old pitcher?

I'm not arguing with you- I'm slightly negative on the deal - but if he is a big game prime John Lackey over the next 5 years (not just a 1 year Lackey) - I'm pretty content with that. How much he drops below "Lackey" depends on the degree in which the trade probably becomes worse and worse depending on Espinoza's future of course.

soxer04
07-16-2016, 12:12 PM
This has me a little optimistic that he can be a 2. If he can be a 2 it means we have an opportunity to be good in the playoffs for several years with the hitting we have.

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/john-tomase/2016/07/16/concerned-about-drew-pomeranzs-red-flags-brian#cxrecs_s

papipapsmanny
07-16-2016, 12:37 PM
What could have Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje gotten us this offseason? ;)

That is my point, and honestly I hated the Kimbrell trade much worse than how I am indifferent to this trade. Margot was getting close to being MLB ready, and we traded him with other high potential guys for a reliever.

This trade I can't be mad at in what we got. We traded an 18 year old 3+ years away (if he ever gets there) for a guy pitching like a 2 right now with 2.5 years of control.

I would have really liked it if that "2" had been a 2 SP for the past 2 years. If he averages a 3+ WAR as a pitcher the next 2.5 seasons for us it is a win.

It seems though DD has no long-term vision for what the teams needs or how the prospects fit. Especially that Kimbrell trade.

San Diego's GM is really liking DD. I am sure Wil Meyers, Cashner, Ross, and Norris could be out the door as well. They miles well as do a youth movement and wait for Kemp and Upton's contracts to expire (although I don't even know how much the padres are actually paying them?)

Bo Sox Fan
07-16-2016, 12:50 PM
It seems though DD has no long-term vision for what the teams needs or how the prospects fit. Especially that Kimbrell trade

Huh? This couldn't be further from the truth. The players DD has acquired in trade, with the exception of Ziegler, all have multiple years of team control. If that's not a long term vision for the future than I don't know what is, especially when he still has Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, Swihart, (do I have to go on) still stashed in his back pocket.

The future is very, very promising.

natsbats
07-16-2016, 12:51 PM
If he performs around 3.5 ERA and averages 6+ innings a start you can't ask for more.

That is roughly what Lester averaged over his Red Sox career.

Pom won't keep an ERA in the 2's.....not in the AL and not at Fenway as his home park.

j-bay
07-16-2016, 01:35 PM
Huh? This couldn't be further from the truth. The players DD has acquired in trade, with the exception of Ziegler, all have multiple years of team control. If that's not a long term vision for the future than I don't know what is, especially when he still has Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, Swihart, (do I have to go on) still stashed in his back pocket.

The future is very, very promising.

Ok so the future is cut in half. Still got some major problems.
1. Kopech. The guy has talent. Problem is he needs to cut down on fastball speed so he doesn't blow his arm out. The other issue is the the guy has a major attitude issue. Point is the Sox need to watch him like a hawk.Make sure he doesn't do anything stupid.
2.Where does Devers go? Moncada is heading to 3B.
3.Where does Swihart go? Its the Killer B's in the OF and Swihart is not going back to catcher.

The only future i see is Moncada, Benintendi, and Groome. Everybody else is questionable. Espinoza would have been the 4th.

papipapsmanny
07-16-2016, 02:42 PM
Ok so the future is cut in half. Still got some major problems.
1. Kopech. The guy has talent. Problem is he needs to cut down on fastball speed so he doesn't blow his arm out. The other issue is the the guy has a major attitude issue. Point is the Sox need to watch him like a hawk.Make sure he doesn't do anything stupid.
2.Where does Devers go? Moncada is heading to 3B.
3.Where does Swihart go? Its the Killer B's in the OF and Swihart is not going back to catcher.

The only future i see is Moncada, Benintendi, and Groome. Everybody else is questionable. Espinoza would have been the 4th.

Espinoza is just as much of a question as Kopech, Groome, Devers and anyone else you hear about with high potential in the low minors.

Benintendi and Moncada are now in AA and still producing very well. Still questions marks but obviously getting close.

j-bay
07-16-2016, 03:04 PM
Espinoza is just as much of a question as Kopech, Groome, Devers and anyone else you hear about with high potential in the low minors.

Benintendi and Moncada are now in AA and still producing very well. Still questions marks but obviously getting close.

Your right about Espinoza being as much of a question. But still not as much of a risk as Kopech. Like i said with Espinoza gone, the Sox have to watch Kopech like a hawk. Its time to tell him to slow down and grown up. The simple fact is if he becomes anything but a #1 or #2, then this trade is a bust. Because i'm expecting Espinoza to be good. Its time to put up or shut up for Kopech.

soxer04
07-16-2016, 03:51 PM
Ok so the future is cut in half. Still got some major problems.
1. Kopech. The guy has talent. Problem is he needs to cut down on fastball speed so he doesn't blow his arm out. The other issue is the the guy has a major attitude issue. Point is the Sox need to watch him like a hawk.Make sure he doesn't do anything stupid.
2.Where does Devers go? Moncada is heading to 3B.
3.Where does Swihart go? Its the Killer B's in the OF and Swihart is not going back to catcher.

The only future i see is Moncada, Benintendi, and Groome. Everybody else is questionable. Espinoza would have been the 4th.

I don''t agree with any of this.

1-- DO you have a link that he needs to cut down his fastball speed so he doesn't blow out his arm? I haven't heard every pitch is 105 for example.

2-- You have a link that Moncada is headed to 3b? Why not for example, DH?

3-- Why can't Devers be a DH if Moncada is at 3rd?

4-- Why can't Swihart platoon with Young if Benitendi isn't ready until 2nd half of 2017?

Bo Sox Fan
07-16-2016, 04:02 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/braves-to-look-for-2017-starting-catcher-on-trade-market.html?fv-home=true&post-id=67137

Let's keep the ball rolling in overhauling this pitching staff. Flip Christian Vazquez to Atlanta for Arodys Vizcaino? Or is that too offensive of a trade for the sensitive people who'd rather hoard prospects...

Arms, arms & more arms. We already have an elite offence. Let's continue to get a head start on the offseason and create a monster of a team. Next years pen:

Kimbrel
Vizcaino
Smith
(Fill in the blanks)

j-bay
07-16-2016, 04:07 PM
I don''t agree with any of this.

1-- DO you have a link that he needs to cut down his fastball speed so he doesn't blow out his arm? I haven't heard every pitch is 105 for example.

2-- You have a link that Moncada is headed to 3b? Why not for example, DH?

3-- Why can't Devers be a DH if Moncada is at 3rd?

4-- Why can't Swihart platoon with Young if Benitendi isn't ready until 2nd half of 2017?

1.Kopech is known for being a hard thrower. If he is forcing it then that is a bad way to blowout your arm. You tell him to cut it down a little. Keep it around 95-97
2.3rd Base would be best fit. You have Hanley, Sandoval, and even word on the street is the Sox might be interested in EE
3.Like i said might not be any room
4 Swihart would be short term. Swihart is a nice piece to have, but is he the future. Nah.

soxer04
07-16-2016, 04:31 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/braves-to-look-for-2017-starting-catcher-on-trade-market.html?fv-home=true&post-id=67137

Let's keep the ball rolling in overhauling this pitching staff. Flip Christian Vazquez to Atlanta for Arodys Vizcaino? Or is that too offensive of a trade for the sensitive people who'd rather hoard prospects...

Arms, arms & more arms. We already have an elite offence. Let's continue to get a head start on the offseason and create a monster of a team. Next years pen:

Kimbrel
Vizcaino
Smith
(Fill in the blanks)

How confident are you that Leone is the next catcher over the next 3-5 years? If you are then that is a good move imo. I'd prefer to wait though because I don't trust Leone's future.

Bo Sox Fan
07-16-2016, 05:57 PM
How confident are you that Leone is the next catcher over the next 3-5 years? If you are then that is a good move imo. I'd prefer to wait though because I don't trust Leone's future.

Not that confident necessarily in Leon as the long term catcher, but when you have 3 catchers that are identical (great D, terrible O) why not cash in on the popular one to keep filling in the other needs. You could always give Swihart his job back behind the plate if you really had to.

Lmao, Leon goes deep as I write this. Absolutely blasted to the left field bleachers!

soxer04
07-16-2016, 06:07 PM
Not that confident necessarily in Leon as the long term catcher, but when you have 3 catchers that are identical (great D, terrible O) why not cash in on the popular one to keep filling in the other needs. You could always give Swihart his job back behind the plate if you really had to.

Lmao, Leon goes deep as I write this. Absolutely blasted to the left field bleachers!

If we don't have a long term catcher and Vaz might be - then I wouldn't trade him. Why? I'm not sold on Swihart as a long term. With that said- if Leon can hit 230-240 with some power - I'd be all over it.

Leon has been unbelievable.

Bo Sox Fan
07-16-2016, 06:15 PM
If we don't have a long term catcher and Vaz might be - then I wouldn't trade him. Why? I'm not sold on Swihart as a long term. With that said- if Leon can hit 230-240 with some power - I'd be all over it.

Leon has been unbelievable.

Yah I dig that. Leon has never been given a chance at regular playing time in Boston or Washington.

We may have found a diamond in the rough. His defence is definitely pretty to watch and if he has any consistent O to compliment it then, hallelujah.

AI
07-17-2016, 06:49 PM
Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje could have gotten us a #1 in the offseason.

We traded them for Kimbrel and Pomeranz, let that sink in. I have no problem dealing prospects, if it makes sense, but we sold HIGH on all of them and the overall return is underwhelming.

Bo Sox Fan
07-17-2016, 09:15 PM
Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje could have gotten us a #1 in the offseason.

We traded them for Kimbrel and Pomeranz, let that sink in. I have no problem dealing prospects, if it makes sense, but we sold HIGH on all of them and the overall return is underwhelming.

I get a kick out of all these assumptions. If we could have we would have their genius.

Just like we would have landed Fernandez for E-Rodriguez, Moncada, one of Betts or Bogaerts + +

That's an identical package to Espinoza & whoever the other names are that you mentioned... For an ace?

Get real.

papipapsmanny
07-17-2016, 11:16 PM
I get a kick out of all these assumptions. If we could have we would have their genius.

Just like we would have landed Fernandez for E-Rodriguez, Moncada, one of Betts or Bogaerts + +

That's an identical package to Espinoza & whoever the other names are that you mentioned... For an ace?

Get real.

That would easily get us Fernandez and actually be a terrible trade for us.

So your assumption is that DD does no wrong and that whatever value we trade and get back is the best value that was out there? That is interesting

Bo Sox Fan
07-18-2016, 02:26 PM
That would easily get us Fernandez and actually be a terrible trade for us.

So your assumption is that DD does no wrong and that whatever value we trade and get back is the best value that was out there? That is interesting

Why wait 5 years for Espinoza to develop while the core of the team is built to win now and every year inbetween then?

What DD has essentially done is replace Lester. A big burly left hander with 3 pitches, one of em being an outstanding curve ball. A guy with a pitch selection that should help him adjust well to the starters role long term and age well. He's also a fake ace, like Lester. Nobody realized what they had til he was gone, but when he flew the coop the rotation was a joke and everybody wanted him back.

Well he's back now, just under a new name "Pomeranz." Like I said, not an ace (on good days he is) but nothing less than an outstanding #3.

With the unrealistic price of pitching these days I'm actually surprised San Diego settled on a 1 for 1 swap. And getting Arizonas closer for basically a bacon & tomato sandwich that was missing the bacon is a steal in my eyes. So to answer your question, yes, DD is doing an outstanding job. A+

RedSoxtober
07-18-2016, 03:46 PM
You guys are ridiculous. This is a good trade. Espinoza though promising, is far from a sure thing. We got as sure a thing you can get. A lefty. An All Star. Who's young and has control. Yeah, its going to cost a top prospect. I'll do it every time.
I'm not particularly happy about the deal. I had my sights set much lower and would have been quite happy with a lower cost and a much less sexy stat line. We've still won games with the 4/5 putting up an ERA north of 7.00; we could be contenders with much less of the future mortgaged.

I get the rationale for the deal. We've got a guy who fills a part of the rotation for 2+ years and we had problems in the rotation well past the end of this season. Still, it feels like we bought the wrong thing. I won't profess BSF's optimism but if Pomeranz gets us deep into October then I'll probably begrudgingly appreciate the deal -- but only because Groome signed the same day.


Drew Pomeranz

2.47 era
102 IP
67 Hits
115 K's

Yes, so terrible. Espinoza is a guarantee too.
How much of a guarantee is Pomeranz? At age 27, he crossed 100IP for the very first time. Major concerns not only for regression in the second half but quite possibly not helping in the post season. He's just never gotten this deep into a season. DD bought VERY high on a very limited sample considering how long he's been around.


Lmao You guys are complaining about Espinoza the Sameeeeeeeee way you complained about Lars Anderson years ago. DD made the right call
This is one of the more ridiculous comments that I've seen in a very long time.


Why wait 5 years for Espinoza to develop while the core of the team is built to win now and every year inbetween then?

It's silly to suggest that Espinoza is 5yrs from MLB. He's either 3yrs (max) or he's not the top 20 prospect that he's been across every outlet that issues rankings.

soxer04
07-18-2016, 08:58 PM
Espinoza, Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje could have gotten us a #1 in the offseason.

We traded them for Kimbrel and Pomeranz, let that sink in. I have no problem dealing prospects, if it makes sense, but we sold HIGH on all of them and the overall return is underwhelming.

I doubt this. If you tried this offseason Guerra is having an awful year. Margot is doing okay - and really- what are Allen and Asuaje right now?

Secondly, if we didn't get Kimbrel we would have had Koji closing games and ended up using taz even more. And now that our number 4 and 5 starters were among the worst ever- getting no one is forfeiting the season. I realize it's not your money - so that's okay. But the owner wants to win. If Pomeranz is a legit 2 and once Kimbrel comes back, you don't think we have a chance to be very good?

soxer04
07-18-2016, 09:03 PM
I doubt Espinoza is in the pros "3 years max." Three years minimum is more like it unless San Diego stinks and at the end of the season they are just looking to see the young guys. The Sox are hoping to be a contender. Espi at best would have been 3rd year. And even then he's still an A level minor league pitcher.

AI
07-18-2016, 11:42 PM
I doubt this. If you tried this offseason Guerra is having an awful year. Margot is doing okay - and really- what are Allen and Asuaje right now?

Secondly, if we didn't get Kimbrel we would have had Koji closing games and ended up using taz even more. And now that our number 4 and 5 starters were among the worst ever- getting no one is forfeiting the season. I realize it's not your money - so that's okay. But the owner wants to win. If Pomeranz is a legit 2 and once Kimbrel comes back, you don't think we have a chance to be very good?

Regardless of how they are performing this season, at the time of their departure via trade, we did in fact sell high on them. I didn't like that we traded that type of package for a closer, even one of Kimbrel's caliber, and I don't like the fact that we traded Espinoza. If Pomeranz "breakout" is real and this is what we'll continue to see going forward, I can appreciate the deal because I get the fact that we're trying to win this year.

soxer04
07-19-2016, 01:35 AM
Regardless of how they are performing this season, at the time of their departure via trade, we did in fact sell high on them. I didn't like that we traded that type of package for a closer, even one of Kimbrel's caliber, and I don't like the fact that we traded Espinoza. If Pomeranz "breakout" is real and this is what we'll continue to see going forward, I can appreciate the deal because I get the fact that we're trying to win this year.

Well we can agree to disagree though I thought we gave up too much at the time but like this trade - I'm looking for results to see if it was good or not. I don't see all these guys on other teams enough. SO I don't agree with "regardless how they are performing." What I know is that lately we've made a lot of trades and "lost." No solace for me "that we could have won . . . "

And if we are trying to win right now, then a guy like Kimbrel was necessary otherwise we wouldn't have had a chance fi we did nothing and kept the prospects.

I agree in respect to it sure would have been nice to wait for Espinoza. Darn Sox should have kept Rich Hill. SO if this move sputters -- DD is going to start getting on my nerves big time!!

Oakmont_4
07-19-2016, 11:48 AM
I'm not particularly happy about the deal. I had my sights set much lower and would have been quite happy with a lower cost and a much less sexy stat line. We've still won games with the 4/5 putting up an ERA north of 7.00; we could be contenders with much less of the future mortgaged.

I just don't see that player out there. The A's asked for the same player for Rich Hill. I mean c'mon. It's the market. Which is being driven by 3 factors. 1. Pitching is more valuable than ever. 2. There are literally no FA pitchers available next year (Bucholtz is legit the top guy in FA). and 3. The second wild card is keeping more teams in contention. It's a sellers market for pitching and I don't see that changing any time soon. Obviously I would rather keep Espinoza, but I get the deal. It makes sense. I don't think it would have been wise to depend on a 4/5 starters with a 7+ ERA to keep scraping us by the rest of the way. Eventually that would have caught up to us.

Not so much to you, but I've seen so many posters here complain about the "future"...Our future is now. The next 4 years really. We have maybe 2 holes to fill in the field over the next 4 years. We have 2 SP spots that will open up and the BP which is always a work in progress. Our core is incredibly young and already showing great potential. If we need to use our farm to improve over the next 4 years, we do it, even if it hinders our future past 4 years. Which I think is ridiculous to look beyond the 4 years. It's too far out and there's 4 drafts in between that time.


I get the rationale for the deal. We've got a guy who fills a part of the rotation for 2+ years and we had problems in the rotation well past the end of this season. Still, it feels like we bought the wrong thing. I won't profess BSF's optimism but if Pomeranz gets us deep into October then I'll probably begrudgingly appreciate the deal -- but only because Groome signed the same day.

Groome signing the same day was huge in this deal making sense. I don't think it happens unless they have that lined up. It makes sense over the next 4 years because Espinoza doesn't even equate in that equation IMO. I don't think he hits the MLB until atleast 3 years from now. So any exposure to the MLB over the next 4 years is going to have VERY minimal impact.

We're in a 4 year window right now. Any player traded away that is not going to have a significant impact in those 4 years...Is fair game IMO. Obviously we want to get the best players we can in return. And I think we did. Anyone who thinks we could have gotten a top tier pitcher without including Moncada or Beninteni is crazy. If we could have, DD would have.

What scares me most is the BP. DD needs to make another move there. I don't trust Taz or Koji and I'm skeptical Kimbrel can come back and be in top form. We need an impact BP piece, which should have a much lower price tag.

In the end, it comes down to playing for this season. When you have a team that has a legit shot, which I believe this team does, you have to go for it. With no top pitching realistically available, I'm happy with the move we made.



How much of a guarantee is Pomeranz? At age 27, he crossed 100IP for the very first time. Major concerns not only for regression in the second half but quite possibly not helping in the post season. He's just never gotten this deep into a season. DD bought VERY high on a very limited sample considering how long he's been around.

He's not a guarantee. I don't think anyone on the trade market is though. Yes it's risky that he's going to go way beyond his max pitch count. But every SP faces this at some point. They all need to break through that wall at some point.

anarcho_punk17
07-19-2016, 06:50 PM
This reminds me of when DD traded for Scherzer as he was entering his prime.

Sure, if Pomeranz was 2 years younger and had 4 more years of control.

anarcho_punk17
07-19-2016, 07:06 PM
Why wait 5 years for Espinoza to develop while the core of the team is built to win now and every year inbetween then?

What DD has essentially done is replace Lester. A big burly left hander with 3 pitches, one of em being an outstanding curve ball. A guy with a pitch selection that should help him adjust well to the starters role long term and age well. He's also a fake ace, like Lester. Nobody realized what they had til he was gone, but when he flew the coop the rotation was a joke and everybody wanted him back.

Well he's back now, just under a new name "Pomeranz." Like I said, not an ace (on good days he is) but nothing less than an outstanding #3.

With the unrealistic price of pitching these days I'm actually surprised San Diego settled on a 1 for 1 swap. And getting Arizonas closer for basically a bacon & tomato sandwich that was missing the bacon is a steal in my eyes. So to answer your question, yes, DD is doing an outstanding job. A+

The only thing Lester and Pomeranz have in common is they're LHP and big. At 27 Lester had over 500 more inn than Pomeranz and 3 seasons he topped 200 inn and was one of the top LHP in the game. Pomeranz track record as good starter consist of 100-150 inn at 27.

anarcho_punk17
07-19-2016, 07:10 PM
Huh? This couldn't be further from the truth. The players DD has acquired in trade, with the exception of Ziegler, all have multiple years of team control. If that's not a long term vision for the future than I don't know what is, especially when he still has Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, Swihart, (do I have to go on) still stashed in his back pocket.

The future is very, very promising.

Pomeranz has 2 years after this season of team control, at which point he'll be 29 and likely at the end of his prime. I don't consider long term 2 years. There's no more of a guarantee Pomeranz will be on this team in 2019 than there is Espinoza would jave been in 2020-2021.

anarcho_punk17
07-19-2016, 07:19 PM
My problem isn't trading Espinoza but I feel if you throw his name out there then a lot of SPs become available. With that said too many people are acting like he is some guarantee to be a quality SP in the MLB.

He is 18 in Grenville and putting okay numbers up, but again is 18. In comparison Kopech put up much better numbers last year in greenville in about the same amount of innings, the only difference him being 19.

If Pomeranz is anything like he has been this year for the next 5 years the deal is a steal no matter what happens with Espinoza, because in the end we traded a complete high potential unknown for a MLB starter. This was a 1-1 swap involving a prospect in Low A for a guy pitching at least like a 2 this year. I just can't call it a bad trade.

Pomeranz was successful last season, he has learned a cutter. The K-rates are there, and the GB% is there. He just needs to get the walks down a bit. I'm okay with this trade.

My only concern is what has been my concern since we got DD. Gutting the farm, hopefully this trade was to protect Benintendi, Kopech, Moncada from being traded.

I am still on board with trading Devers I just don't see a position for him here (unless he secretly plays catcher).

If Buchholz, E-Rod, Devers, Owens, Chavis (again where would he fit) are packaged for another young TORP guy I would be okay with that, then be patient with the farm.

Benintendi isn't far and Moncada isn't either (he is going to 3B). I could see Shaw and Travis platooning at 1B as soon as next season. We still have Swihart who I don't believe is truly done with the C position.

We are still in great shape, and even better shape if Pomeranz is a 3+ WAR pitcher with us. We really just need another good SP for you to be comfortble with the rotation

We have Pomeranz for 2+ years unless he gets a long term deal at some point, 5 years is a big IF.

As a starter last year his era was over 4. Outside of ~100 inn this year and ~50 inn in 2014 as a starter his results as a starter haven't been good. Both of those seasons came in pitchers parks too.

Green_Monster
07-19-2016, 08:05 PM
Pomeranz has 2 years after this season of team control, at which point he'll be 29 and likely at the end of his prime. I don't consider long term 2 years. There's no more of a guarantee Pomeranz will be on this team in 2019 than there is Espinoza would jave been in 2020-2021.

Since when is 29 the end of a players prime? Maybe in another sport, not baseball.

Corey
07-19-2016, 08:30 PM
I think 29 is a peak age, if anything. I dont see how that's the end of someone's prime, especially someone that doesnt have a ton of innings on his arm.

Bo Sox Fan
07-19-2016, 08:50 PM
Pomeranz has 2 years after this season of team control, at which point he'll be 29 and likely at the end of his prime. I don't consider long term 2 years. There's no more of a guarantee Pomeranz will be on this team in 2019 than there is Espinoza would jave been in 2020-2021.

You're entitled to your opinion but you sure rush to conclusion that we somehow lost this trade without looking at the positive trend in numbers for Pomeranz going all the way back to 2012:

YR - H/9 - SO/9 - HR/9
'12 - 9.0 / 7.7 / 1.3
'13 - 10.4 / 7.9 / 1.7
'14 - 6.7 / 8.3 / 0.9
'15 - 7.4 / 8.6 / 0.8
'16 - 5.9 / 10.1 / 0.7

Some guys just find "it" with more and more experience and Pomeranz is definately falling into that category. Obviously Espinoza is highly regarded, but he could just as well wind up being nothing more than a Rubby De La Rosa.

I give my vote of confidence to DD for this trade and yeah, 29 years old is not past any pitchers prime. Never has been, especially for a guy the size of Pomeranz. He's got Jon Lester / Andy Pettite written all over him. Should be effective till he's 36-38.

BoSox47
07-20-2016, 10:15 AM
Things that scare with with Pomeranz.

1. Just came off shoulder surgery and is now throwing most inning he ever has.

2. Traded a possible elite pitcher for a #3 pitcher, maybe number 2 but probably a weak #2.

3. Even after his great start almost career 4 ERA as a starter and 3.6 BB/9 and insanely high LOB rate

RedSoxtober
07-20-2016, 10:40 AM
The comments regarding the pieces sent for Kimbrel were pretty far off base. Margot is doing "just okay"? .300/.349/.430 as a CF is pretty damn good. 15-2B, 10-3B, and 4HR for a guy whose defensive profile is what put him on the map? His floor was a second division regular based on his glove. He's doing MUCH better than ok.

Logan Allen was pretty much dismissed in the earlier comments but that was a big mistake. This kid went to the same IMG academy that Groome did (in fact, they were probably teammates during Allen's senior year). He was a pretty big prospect whose star shown dimmer amidst the major talent in the system. 3.07ERA, 44IP/41K/14BB in A ball, playing 3yrs younger than the competition, is also much more than OK.

Guerra was not simply a throw-in though his decline makes him appear to be that. He's got a great glove and his bat peaked at the right time for the deal. Asuaje, similarly, had his bat propel a lot of interest. Fortunately for him, it's not abated in AAA (.328/.385/.475). He stock has risen to the point that people are now considering him a possibility as an MLB regular rather than a Brock Holt type UTL.

It was a very rich package that we dealt. Had DD been willing to deal Espinoza this past offseason then I would be shocked if the Kimbrel package plus Espinoza could not have gotten a deal done for a TOTR. Suggestions to the contrary, I think, are driven by lack of familiarity with all the pieces and their relative value.


I just don't see that player out there. The A's asked for the same player for Rich Hill. I mean c'mon. It's the market. Which is being driven by 3 factors. 1. Pitching is more valuable than ever. 2. There are literally no FA pitchers available next year (Bucholtz is legit the top guy in FA). and 3. The second wild card is keeping more teams in contention. It's a sellers market for pitching and I don't see that changing any time soon. Obviously I would rather keep Espinoza, but I get the deal. It makes sense. I don't think it would have been wise to depend on a 4/5 starters with a 7+ ERA to keep scraping us by the rest of the way. Eventually that would have caught up to us.
I'm quite aware of what the market looks like and that's precisely why I've been targeting lower tier pitchers. I'm talking a traditional 2-4 type guy who would keep a decent team in the ball game. ERA+ 100-105 should be very successful with the offense that the Sox have this year.

I had similar concerns for Hill as I do for Pomeranz (most notably IP) and that was before the injuries/issues that have kept him off the mound. Hellickson is much more the profile of what I had in mind. Lower tier of pitcher on a retiring contract.


Not so much to you, but I've seen so many posters here complain about the "future"...Our future is now. The next 4 years really. We have maybe 2 holes to fill in the field over the next 4 years. We have 2 SP spots that will open up and the BP which is always a work in progress. Our core is incredibly young and already showing great potential. If we need to use our farm to improve over the next 4 years, we do it, even if it hinders our future past 4 years. Which I think is ridiculous to look beyond the 4 years. It's too far out and there's 4 drafts in between that time.
This "four year window" seems to be the big deal to you. We simply disagree on this point. The current core is, as you say, young and dynamic. There's no doubt about that. I tend to take a much longer view of the organization though. IMO every deal needs to make sense in both the short term and the long term.

I think that this is a good team but certainly not one without flaws. That's part of what makes me hesitant about dealing top prospects right now. Even dismissing whether or not I believe that we sold short on Espinoza (I believe that we did), was THIS the right group for which to make such a bold move? Even with our vaunted closer the BP has been suspect. The offense, as good as it has been, slid quite a bit in June and is not on the same path that it was earlier. They've been vulnerable against good pitching (good => better than league average, not just TOTR) and also away from Fenway. Since the ASG the first five spots in the order are 12/79 with 3XBH (all HR) and 7RBI. Yes, SSS and all that BUT it's an illustration of what can happen to this particular lineup; they'll face pitching as good or better than what they've had in 3 road games plus Peavy at home recently.

Also, keep in mind that the Sox played an obscene number of games at home before the ASG (50/87). With one road series followed by a 9-game homestand, the Sox will play roughly one third (22/63) of their remaining schedule on the road. That includes 17 games on the West Coast. Those big ballparks with some TOTR arms could sink their playoff hopes.

Add all that up and I personally would have been much more conservative. If there is a four year window, it may be "soon" rather than "now." I'd rather have taken the gamble on Espinoza with a team that we more clearly a front runner gathering a chip that put them over the top, than dealing an elite prospect for a shot at the playoffs. That's even more true given how tight the market is.


He's not a guarantee. I don't think anyone on the trade market is though. Yes it's risky that he's going to go way beyond his max pitch count. But every SP faces this at some point. They all need to break through that wall at some point.
All the more reason to be conservative IMO. There were no "guarantees" out there. Dealing such a high profile prospect in an uncertain market seems foolish even if DD "wins" the trade. Considering him only as a potential trade piece, we've dealt where his value relative to the market was low. Whether you want to call it overpayment or undervaluing opportunity cost, I don't care for it.

soxer04
07-22-2016, 11:37 PM
I was reading the trade thread but felt this post more appropriate on this thread:

I’d like to reiterate That I was a little skeptical of the trade with Espinoza vs Pomeranz because I’m not sure if Pomeranz is a 2 or 3 or 4.

With that said regarding the trade, - well I don’t know about many of you- but I’ve been disgusted watching crummy baseball for 3 out of the past 4 years. While Pomeranz at the moment doesn’t appear to me to be a 2, Banister appears to believe he is at that ranking. I can’t say yes or no- I can only argue with results. If Banister is wrong he and DD and Henry should be strung up if AE progresses to a high caliber player while Pomeranz languishes.

But if he nails it and Pomeranz is a 2 and we have highly successful seasons—then it was a terrific trade. More than likely, we weren’t a playoff team this year without another solid starter. And we still have a very strong farm system and we still have Moncada and beni coming shortly for help. And can anyone say for sure he will wear down while Banister said because he doesn't throw as many fastballs that he won't? Or is it just an opinion?

In 2013 our number 2 starters beat for example the Tigers with their supreme starters and ofc round earlier we beat-down Price.

So in summary, we’re complaining that DD gives up too much yet we want Sale and expect that if we had AE that getting Sale wouldn’t have been an enormous hit to our farm system?

Our farm system is still intact and anyone can go to fangraphs and see we are among the favorites in the AL to get to the W/S (2nd but close to 1st). Plus we can see we’ll be strong through 2018 yet we’re complaining vs the garbage we had to watch over the last couple of years?

soxer04
07-23-2016, 12:35 AM
And I disagree with redsoxtober's take on the prospects for Kimbrel. And yet I think Kimbrel is highly overrated but don't want to take away from the thread.

j-bay
07-23-2016, 12:50 AM
I was reading the trade thread but felt this post more appropriate on this thread:

I’d like to reiterate That I was a little skeptical of the trade with Espinoza vs Pomeranz because I’m not sure if Pomeranz is a 2 or 3 or 4.

With that said regarding the trade, - well I don’t know about many of you- but I’ve been disgusted watching crummy baseball for 3 out of the past 4 years. While Pomeranz at the moment doesn’t appear to me to be a 2, Banister appears to believe he is at that ranking. I can’t say yes or no- I can only argue with results. If Banister is wrong he and DD and Henry should be strung up if AE progresses to a high caliber player while Pomeranz languishes.

But if he nails it and Pomeranz is a 2 and we have highly successful seasons—then it was a terrific trade. More than likely, we weren’t a playoff team this year without another solid starter. And we still have a very strong farm system and we still have Moncada and beni coming shortly for help. And can anyone say for sure he will wear down while Banister said because he doesn't throw as many fastballs that he won't? Or is it just an opinion?

In 2013 our number 2 starters beat for example the Tigers with their supreme starters and ofc round earlier we beat-down Price.

So in summary, we’re complaining that DD gives up too much yet we want Sale and expect that if we had AE that getting Sale wouldn’t have been an enormous hit to our farm system?

Our farm system is still intact and anyone can go to fangraphs and see we are among the favorites in the AL to get to the W/S (2nd but close to 1st). Plus we can see we’ll be strong through 2018 yet we’re complaining vs the garbage we had to watch over the last couple of years?


I would hesitant to pull that trigger. Yes you get the best pitcher in the AL, but at a very high price. Add in the fact that next year can't sign IFAs and we will probably lose our 1st round pick due to signing a UFA to replace Ortiz. I said it before and i will say it again. If you are patient, good things are going to happen with this team. Unless your 70 or older, you shouldn't be complaining. As for the Pomeranz trade people are 50/50 on the trade itself. I think DD got desperate. Yes Kopech has a nice fastball and talent, but still has quite a few issues. As for Pomeranz he has a playoff type game against the Tigers with Verlander on the hill.

soxer04
07-23-2016, 01:32 AM
I would hesitant to pull that trigger. Yes you get the best pitcher in the AL, but at a very high price. Add in the fact that next year can't sign IFAs and we will probably lose our 1st round pick due to signing a UFA to replace Ortiz. I said it before and i will say it again. If you are patient, good things are going to happen with this team. Unless your 70 or older, you shouldn't be complaining. As for the Pomeranz trade people are 50/50 on the trade itself. I think DD got desperate. Yes Kopech has a nice fastball and talent, but still has quite a few issues. As for Pomeranz he has a playoff type game against the Tigers with Verlander on the hill.

I agree on Sale. Hmmmm- I thought you were one that was advocating to fill up the truck for Sale? Anyhow I agree. Keep Moncada and Beni. I'm hopeful Moncada might have a shot at starting early next year.

I know some don't like to hear it, but if Moncada and Beni can start early next year- we still have an abundance of young players. We can't keep everyone. Swihart and Sam Travis. Another year with Owens and the great unknown of Brian Johnson. More experienced- While I dislike Panda immensely- he'll be back. Chris Young.

As for Pomeranz - I don't think it desperate if they feel that Pomeranz is a solid 2. The way Banister spoke of Pomeranz - sounds like they think he's a 2.

Corey
07-23-2016, 02:11 AM
Okay so I wont lie, Im a basketball guy. I follow baseball but im not a stats guy and im way more well-versed in basketball statistics and analysis.

What teams have been above average without a legit ace? I know Price is an ace that is wildly underperforming, and if you switched the stat lines for Price and Wright, everyone would be perfectly fine, but has a team ever had real success with a rotation full of 3/4 pitchers?

Price is pitching like a 3/4. Pomeranz is a 3. E-Rod has potential but he's a 3/4 right now. Wright is pitching like a 1, but he's really a 4/5. Porcello is on a roll, but he's a 2/3/4 in a really good rotation.

j-bay
07-23-2016, 09:37 AM
I agree on Sale. Hmmmm- I thought you were one that was advocating to fill up the truck for Sale? Anyhow I agree. Keep Moncada and Beni. I'm hopeful Moncada might have a shot at starting early next year.

I know some don't like to hear it, but if Moncada and Beni can start early next year- we still have an abundance of young players. We can't keep everyone. Swihart and Sam Travis. Another year with Owens and the great unknown of Brian Johnson. More experienced- While I dislike Panda immensely- he'll be back. Chris Young.

As for Pomeranz - I don't think it desperate if they feel that Pomeranz is a solid 2. The way Banister spoke of Pomeranz - sounds like they think he's a 2.
You know when your team is rumored to possibly trade for a good player? At first your like **** yeah. But then you look at what you have to give up and how it effects the future. This would be a big hit. And after thinking about it I said a hard no.

According to multiple reports the Padres wouldn't have traded Pomeranz without overpay. The only semi-reasonable reason to trade for Pomeranz at that time was if the Rangers were involved and were offering a similar prospect. The reason why we traded Espinoza was because of Kopech. Dombrowski has an obsession with guys who can throw heat. Apparently Kopech's "progress" was enough to trade Espinoza.Think that was a mistake. Except the high heat fastball, Espinoza has the advantage everywhere else. Kopech is still immature. I have watched video of him and have read scouting reports. He needs more control of his fastball. Then you get to the secondary stuff. He needs to start mixing those in with the fastball. He has a great slider, but he needs to work on his change and curve. Right now Michael Kopech is a huge project which they really need to watch. There are still a lot of issues that they need to help him with if he is going to be the #2 (Groome is 1).

j-bay
07-23-2016, 09:46 AM
Okay so I wont lie, Im a basketball guy. I follow baseball but im not a stats guy and im way more well-versed in basketball statistics and analysis.

What teams have been above average without a legit ace? I know Price is an ace that is wildly underperforming, and if you switched the stat lines for Price and Wright, everyone would be perfectly fine, but has a team ever had real success with a rotation full of 3/4 pitchers?

Price is pitching like a 3/4. Pomeranz is a 3. E-Rod has potential but he's a 3/4 right now. Wright is pitching like a 1, but he's really a 4/5. Porcello is on a roll, but he's a 2/3/4 in a really good rotation.

Price hasn't been great but he hasn't been bad either. He has improved since May. Now if your refering to his record then some of those have been games where the Sox offense had let him down since June. Toronto he left a game 2-3,2-1 against SF, 2-3 against Baltimore, against Texas a few weeks ago he left a game that was 2-3, and then 1-3 against the Yankees. With the offense we have those are games we could win. So Price hasn't been terrible.

soxer04
07-23-2016, 10:41 AM
Okay so I wont lie, Im a basketball guy. I follow baseball but im not a stats guy and im way more well-versed in basketball statistics and analysis.

What teams have been above average without a legit ace? I know Price is an ace that is wildly underperforming, and if you switched the stat lines for Price and Wright, everyone would be perfectly fine, but has a team ever had real success with a rotation full of 3/4 pitchers?


Price is pitching like a 3/4. Pomeranz is a 3. E-Rod has potential but he's a 3/4 right now. Wright is pitching like a 1, but he's really a 4/5. Porcello is on a roll, but he's a 2/3/4 in a really good rotation.

Here is what you are doing -- which you might be right but could be wrong--

1-- You are discounting that Wright is a 1/2 my guess is - because his makeup of a knuckleballer and inexpereienced / without a track record. You could be right. But still for whatever reason you are discounting him.

2-- Then in the same paragraph you aren't giving Price any / much probability of being a 1 yet he has all three of the bold. If track record, experience and makeup are important then why wouldn't you consider Price a 1? If they aren't important then why wouldn't Wright be considered a 1? So in other words if you are discounting Price pitching like a 3/4 as of this moment, then why not call Wright a 1 as of this moment? So all we need is a 2, right?

3-- I lean toward what you are saying calling Pomeranz a 3 but Banister doesn't agree with us. We haven't seen much of a track record yet with Banister though this year's trades have been overall pretty bad considering everyone other Zeigler has either underperformed or been hurt. So if you don't believe in Banister that's fine. Overall I'll give him through the end of next year. But IF Banister is right and Pomeranz is a 2, then from what I described above of either (or maybe both) of Price and Wright - you certainly have your 1/2 locked down and maybe you have an additional 2 between the 3.

Then we have Porcelleo - no doubt a weak 2 or a 3 or can be a 4. If he is a 3 - yet we have 2 or 3 better picthers than him- that's good, isn't it?

4-- In 2013 the Red Sox had two 2's. Lester nor Lackey are ACEs. Clay was a shell of what he was earlier in the year and Peavy wasn't very good. Our 5th starter Dubront had a nice season but he over-achieved during the year and had that big w/s game but didn't pitch any other time other than a couple of times. With this move that the sox made for Pomeranz - the starting pitcher potential is far superior than the 2013 team before the playoffs started if back then you knew Clay wasn't going to bounce back and Peavy was more of a 4/5.

The addition of Pomeranz increases our odds that we have at least two 2's like 2013 or even if Price or Wright drop out of the 1/2 hunt, we have a possibility that Pomeranz can step up and be that 2. Banister believes he is. Maybe he is right and your discount of Pomeranz as a 3 but not a 2 is wrong? I believe Price is a 1 by the way. If Wright sustains and is a 1 making Price a 2-- that would be pretty awesome provided it doesn't rain or it isn't too humid. LOL.

soxer04
07-23-2016, 11:19 AM
You know when your team is rumored to possibly trade for a good player? At first your like **** yeah. But then you look at what you have to give up and how it effects the future. This would be a big hit. And after thinking about it I said a hard no.

According to multiple reports the Padres wouldn't have traded Pomeranz without overpay. The only semi-reasonable reason to trade for Pomeranz at that time was if the Rangers were involved and were offering a similar prospect. The reason why we traded Espinoza was because of Kopech. Dombrowski has an obsession with guys who can throw heat. Apparently Kopech's "progress" was enough to trade Espinoza.Think that was a mistake. Except the high heat fastball, Espinoza has the advantage everywhere else. Kopech is still immature. I have watched video of him and have read scouting reports. He needs more control of his fastball. Then you get to the secondary stuff. He needs to start mixing those in with the fastball. He has a great slider, but he needs to work on his change and curve. Right now Michael Kopech is a huge project which they really need to watch. There are still a lot of issues that they need to help him with if he is going to be the #2 (Groome is 1).

I don’t agree with your tone/ and take here. Overall you could be right but for me all you are doing is advocating another hopeless season (unless you believe that two of our other 4 starters will rise / maintain being legit throughout the year and we have a chance for the playoffs while we overpay for a 4th or 5th starter). We have among the highest paid teams in baseball whose offense was/ is clicking. They needed at least another starter no matter how we look at it.

1— When you speak of “affects the future” – when I look at the future of this year’s starting pitching staff and the next two beyond this year – it’s pretty darn good. So while the Sox are a contender more than likely the next 3 years – the 4-5 year projection takes precedence? I don’t agree with “a big hit” because even as of this moment we still have amongst the best farm systems in baseball. We’re a big market team and there is a good chance that the luxury tax will rise – so we can afford to pay just as we’re doing now.

2—When you speak of overpay – with any starter that is any good – when wouldn’t it be an overpay? If you want to try to win right now- then you have to overpay otherwise you aren’t getting the starter you want. While I love watching prospects come up—I also would love to see our team to have a legit chance to win the W/S or get to the ALCS etc. They way this team was constructed and the performance of the 4/5 starters and the forced overuse of Taz (over the years) and Koji and the injury to Smith – we either have to pray to be a playoff team with no real shot to go to W/S or we overpay and get a legit starter. We overpaid yet we still have a top level farm system.

3—I agree slightly with your take on Kopech and DD’s decision. But imo the most important decision that he made this move was so that the Sox could really try to win now and over the next 3 years with Pomeranz as a possible 2. IMO the possibility of winning over this long stretch trumped your belief that it was mostly about Kopech.

4-- As a fan I’m pretty excited that we have a real chance of being a w/s contender this year and the next 2. For me as a fan, they had better do really well – because I agree with you- Espinoza had/ has an enormous ceiling. String Banister and DD up if our team and Pomeranz don’t work out over the next few years. But as of this moment we are contenders and our future looks bright beyond the next 3 years as well because of our farm system and we can afford some expensive players and we can trade others.

j-bay
07-23-2016, 12:19 PM
I don’t agree with your tone/ and take here. Overall you could be right but for me all you are doing is advocating another hopeless season (unless you believe that two of our other 4 starters will rise / maintain being legit throughout the year and we have a chance for the playoffs while we overpay for a 4th or 5th starter). We have among the highest paid teams in baseball whose offense was/ is clicking. They needed at least another starter no matter how we look at it.

1— When you speak of “affects the future” – when I look at the future of this year’s starting pitching staff and the next two beyond this year – it’s pretty darn good. So while the Sox are a contender more than likely the next 3 years – the 4-5 year projection takes precedence? I don’t agree with “a big hit” because even as of this moment we still have amongst the best farm systems in baseball. We’re a big market team and there is a good chance that the luxury tax will rise – so we can afford to pay just as we’re doing now.

2—When you speak of overpay – with any starter that is any good – when wouldn’t it be an overpay? If you want to try to win right now- then you have to overpay otherwise you aren’t getting the starter you want. While I love watching prospects come up—I also would love to see our team to have a legit chance to win the W/S or get to the ALCS etc. They way this team was constructed and the performance of the 4/5 starters and the forced overuse of Taz (over the years) and Koji and the injury to Smith – we either have to pray to be a playoff team with no real shot to go to W/S or we overpay and get a legit starter. We overpaid yet we still have a top level farm system.

3—I agree slightly with your take on Kopech and DD’s decision. But imo the most important decision that he made this move was so that the Sox could really try to win now and over the next 3 years with Pomeranz as a possible 2. IMO the possibility of winning over this long stretch trumped your belief that it was mostly about Kopech.

4-- As a fan I’m pretty excited that we have a real chance of being a w/s contender this year and the next 2. For me as a fan, they had better do really well – because I agree with you- Espinoza had/ has an enormous ceiling. String Banister and DD up if our team and Pomeranz don’t work out over the next few years. But as of this moment we are contenders and our future looks bright beyond the next 3 years as well because of our farm system and we can afford some expensive players and we can trade others.

Don't get me wrong I think Pomeranz has a chance to be a decent to good. And we needed to get better pitching wise. But if i was DD, i would have looked a little harder. And if not shouldn't DD have cracked down on Preller. I mean i give Preller some credit because he had a pretty good mentor in Jon Daniels, but your telling me that Dombrowski who is one of the best in the business couldn't and has been doing this for 30 year can"t get the price down. Now DD did say he offered the Padres some multi player deal but they them down. My question is did they offer Kopech. If they had the chance to then i would kill DD. If he took Kopech because of the heat then that is a bad move. Espinoza was the more complete guy. Oh well its too late now. One thing is for sure is I think Pomeranz is only a #3. So we are looking at 2 types of trades. 1.The Bagwell trade
2.The Boddicker trade
It will be an interesting in his next game. A playoff type matchup against Verlander and the Tigers. Lets see what he's got.

ccspence8
08-01-2016, 06:02 PM
When was the last time the Red Sox traded for an NL starter that amounted to squat..and pitched more than just a deadline deal.

Nevermind a starter in the NL West.
Hideo Nomo maybe

papipapsmanny
08-01-2016, 10:09 PM
Peavy was alright here.

Can't really judge Pomeranz here until he gets about 10 starts in with us... even then that is about 1/3 of a starters starts in a year.

RedSoxtober
08-02-2016, 09:28 AM
Peavy was alright here.

Can't really judge Pomeranz here until he gets about 10 starts in with us... even then that is about 1/3 of a starters starts in a year.

The point seems to be that the Sox do not have much luck importing pitchers from the league without the DH. Since Peavy came from the White Sox, he doesn't answer the question.

The results were not overwhelming but recently the best fit might be Miley. The last significant impact NL pitcher was probably Beckett. The list (before I got bored) is below.

2013: Dempster, Hanrahan
2012: Melancon, Mortenson, Breslow
2009: Brad Penny, John Smoltz, Billy Wagner
2007: Eric Gagne
2006: Josh Beckett, Rudy Seanez, Jermaine Van Buren
2005: Matt Clement, Wade Miller, David Wells, Matt Mantei, Mike Remlinger
2004: Curt Schilling, Pedro Astacio
2003: Mike Timlin, Bronson Arroyo, Sott Williamson, B-K Kim, Jeff Suppan, Scott Sauerbeck
2002: Alan Embree
...
1998: Pedro Martinez
1995: Tim Wakefield

BSF101
08-04-2016, 11:43 PM
This guy sucks no wonder San Diego got rid of him.

Pittz
08-05-2016, 12:00 AM
This guy sucks no wonder San Diego got rid of him.

Can't really
complain about
6IP 2ER...

RedSoxtober
08-05-2016, 08:43 AM
Can't really
complain about
6IP 2ER...

He had six walks so
Results are a little off
I think it's fatigue

Pittz
08-05-2016, 08:56 AM
He had six walks so
Results are a little off
I think it's fatigue

Certainly some red flags,
though one was intentional.
I'll take the results

Really though, I think you're probably right. I liked the trade to take the chance Pomeranz keeps up his performance this year, but really believe it'll pay off the next two years. I do like Pomeranz and think it's tough to judge too significantly on his end of year performance when he is in new territory for IP.

BGeer091
08-05-2016, 11:20 PM
So whats all this talk about S.D not giving us the proper medical records?? Is it possible to get Espinosa back if they are found to have done something wrong? Obviously we'd still have to give them something. Or is this a fine kinda thing?

j-bay
08-06-2016, 01:37 AM
So whats all this talk about S.D not giving us the proper medical records?? Is it possible to get Espinosa back if they are found to have done something wrong? Obviously we'd still have to give them something. Or is this a fine kinda thing?

Apparently we are ok with the deal, no comp asked for. I would like to see some harsh penalty laid out for the Padres. This happened with the Marlins as well. Need to teach them a lesson.

MG956
08-06-2016, 08:33 AM
Apparently we are ok with the deal, no comp asked for. I would like to see some harsh penalty laid out for the Padres. This happened with the Marlins as well. Need to teach them a lesson.

Ya, aren't we nice. They should undo this deal as punishment, not slap them on the wrist.

bruins>habs
08-06-2016, 08:39 AM
This guy sucks no wonder San Diego got rid of him.

Do you even watch
Stat watching at its finest
Your comments are sad

bagwell368
08-06-2016, 09:50 PM
Yea, undo the trade - we got a few starts out of Pomeranz a nice benefit, and then unveil our secret weapon - he's rested and ready to dominate the AL - Clay Bierkenholz!

RedSoxtober
09-15-2016, 03:53 PM
According to two sources with direct knowledge of those meetings, the staffers were instructed by front office officials to document medical details about players into two separate systems.

The athletic trainers were told to post the details of any disabled-list-related medical situations on MLB's central system, but they also were instructed to keep the specifics about preventive treatments only on the Padres' internal notes. One source defined the distinction in this way: If a player was treated for a sore hamstring or shoulder without being placed on the disabled list, that sort of information was to be kept in-house, for use within the organization only.

According to the two sources with direct knowledge of the meetings, the athletic trainers were told that by splitting the medical files into two categories, the Padres would benefit in trade discussions.

At the annual get-together of athletic trainers at baseball's winter meetings in Nashville, Tennessee, in December, MLB officials had informed those in the room that they wanted more medical documentation. Months later, when the Padres' directive to split the documentation was handed down, some Padres staffers were uncomfortable, according to sources, and some expressed that discomfort, with athletic trainers saying there would be backlash for this type of filing system.

According to sources, the Padres reached midseason with dramatically fewer medical entries on their players. An average number of entries for a given team might be in the range of 60 by the All-Star break. The Padres had fewer than 10, according to a source.ESPN.com (more here (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/17554327/san-diego-padres-face-discipline-hiding-players-medical-information-mlb-database))

Soxfan85
09-15-2016, 05:47 PM
San Diego Padres general manager A.J. Preller has been suspended 30 days without pay by Major League Baseball for his conduct in the trade of All-Star pitcher Drew Pomeranz to the Boston Red Sox.

The commissioner’s office announced the discipline on Thursday but did not elaborate on what Preller did wrong.

The Padres traded Pomeranz to Boston on July 14 for right-handed prospect Anderson Espinoza.



MLB said it conducted an investigation into the deal, interviewing individuals from both clubs, and submitted the findings to Commissioner Rob Manfred.

Source WHDH

RedSoxtober
09-20-2016, 08:22 AM
The Red Sox are being carried right now primarily by their offense and bullpen, but the rotation has seen a number of poor outings of late. Lefthander Drew Pomeranz was knocked out in the fourth inning of Sunday’s start, having allowed all four Red Sox runs, and in six starts at Fenway since the Sox acquired him in July, he’s 0-2 with a 6.75 ERA and a staggering eight homers allowed in 26 2/3 innings (2.7 per nine innings). His back-to-back starts of fewer than four innings raise natural questions about whether he’s fatigued, and as Ben Buchanan writes for Over The Monster, it also highlight broader questions about the state of a prospect Red Sox postseason rotation behind David Price and Rick Porcello .

At the least, the ineffectiveness of Pomeranz – a fly ball pitcher (among qualifying starters, he ranks in baseball’s top-25 in percentage of balls in play that result in fly balls) who works up in the strike zone with his fastball – suggests that the Red Sox will likely do what they can to avoid having him start a postseason game at Fenway.Speier

BoSox47
09-21-2016, 01:14 PM
Pomeranz ERA with the red sox is also up to 4.91.

Soxfan85
09-27-2016, 07:59 PM
Drew Pomeranz will miss his final start of the regular season on Thursday because of soreness in his left forearm, and it's unclear whether Pomeranz will be able to contribute out of the bullpen in the postseason.

Henry Owens will start in Pomeranz's place on Thursday.

"He came out of his last start a little more sore," manager John Farrell said of Pomeranz. "There's been additional need for recovery time, with the total number of innings pitched. He is not shut down, but he is not starting Thursday. We need to get him on a mound hopefully by the end of the week to determine a bullpen role going forward."

Pomeranz's September performance — 12 earned runs on 21 hits in 16 1/3 innings spanning four starts — meant he was almost certainly not going to be part of the postseason rotation regardless of his health. However, given the left-hander's experience as a reliever, he appeared to be a viable option to pitch out of the pen in the playoffs, especially to left-handed hitters. Pomeranz has held lefties to a .553 OPS over the course of his career.

Whether Pomeranz will be healthy enough for even that role, though, is yet to be determined.

"At this point in time, we're looking at the needs of Drew," said Farrell. "We have not discussed anything beyond with the roster and who's eligible."

Any injury conversation regarding Pomeranz circles back to the Padres' obscuring certain aspects of Pomeranz's medical records before trading him to Boston. Farrell would not comment on whether the forearm soreness Pomeranz is currently experiencing is tied to what the Sox learned about Pomeranz only after acquiring him.

Farrell said the decision to skip Pomeranz's start "is independent of the standings." Of course, it is easier for the Red Sox to swallow the loss of a starter when their magic number to clinch the division stood at one entering Tuesday's series opener with the Yankees.


Steven Wright threw a bullpen session on Tuesday with another, heavier one scheduled for Friday back in Boston. Wright's status for the postseason is still up in the air.

"He's making progress," Farrell said. "We're taking this day-to-day.

Providence Journal

On the bold um why? He has been absolutely brutal in AAA. How is that going to change in majors? Keep Clay I rather see him than Owens

RedSoxtober
09-28-2016, 09:32 AM
First, Owens was on a decent run at the end of the season. I don't have a strong feeling that he keeps it up but that's somewhat besides the point. For a guy in the minors it's all about how you finished and he finished pretty well.

Second, Farrell already has his rotation set FOR THE PLAYOFFS. You keep these guys on their regular turns to preserve that. Pomeranz is out of the rotation contention so you wave the white flag on his turn and preserve the rest.

RedSoxtober
09-28-2016, 09:54 AM
I'm not particularly happy about the deal. I had my sights set much lower and would have been quite happy with a lower cost and a much less sexy stat line. We've still won games with the 4/5 putting up an ERA north of 7.00; we could be contenders with much less of the future mortgaged.

I get the rationale for the deal. We've got a guy who fills a part of the rotation for 2+ years and we had problems in the rotation well past the end of this season. Still, it feels like we bought the wrong thing. I won't profess BSF's optimism but if Pomeranz gets us deep into October then I'll probably begrudgingly appreciate the deal -- but only because Groome signed the same day.


How much of a guarantee is Pomeranz? At age 27, he crossed 100IP for the very first time. Major concerns not only for regression in the second half but quite possibly not helping in the post season. He's just never gotten this deep into a season. DD bought VERY high on a very limited sample considering how long he's been around.

First half: 8-7, 2.87 ERA, 3.14 FIP, 1.059 WHIP, 0.7HR/9, 5.9H/9
Second half: 3-5, 4.68 ERA, 4.86 FIP, 1.396 WHIP, 1.9HR/9, 9.4H/9

Forearm soreness, out of the playoff rotation with a possibility that he works as a reliever due to innings count. Who could possibly have guessed?

Pittz
09-28-2016, 10:28 AM
Very predictable, worth the gamble, payoff will come moreso in the next two years. I'm still fine with the trade.

BoSox47
09-28-2016, 12:37 PM
Very predictable, worth the gamble, payoff will come moreso in the next two years. I'm still fine with the trade.

I hope so because its been a very mixed bag for him to this point. He had a good stretch in august and I can see his potential, but also at times he can be really hard to watch.

RedSoxtober
09-28-2016, 04:27 PM
I agree with the idea that part of the reason to make the deal is solidifying the rotation over the next two years. I'm not quite as convinced that that's where the "payoff" lies. The danger of the deal is that he's having a career best season while not coincidentally moving into one of the more pitcher friendly parks in the pitcher friendliest division in MLB. The "pitcher friendliness" of the NL West is part of the reason that SDP could take an expensive gamble with Shields, for example. We needed some bang for the buck in his best season to date IMO.

Oh, speaking of Shields, the reason that the Sox rebuffed trade offers involving Shields was his scary fly ball tendencies. Wellll, guess who has worse FB numbers. Yeah, Pomeranz. They both hang around MLB average for GB/FB and GO/AO but Drew's HR/FB (9.6%) is noticeably higher than Shields (9.0%, MLB average 7.6%). Moving to Fenway made it worse -- 15.6% since the trade, which eclipses his previous highs in the first few years in MLB while pitching for COL. Yes, that is scary.

At a minimum, these values do not bode well for the playoffs and point to something that needs drastic correction over the next two years.

papipapsmanny
09-28-2016, 10:27 PM
Pomeranz helped this season. Sure he had his games where he blew up but he had a lot of nice starts with us and what production would we have gotten out of the guys that would have pitched in his place?

Again we traded an 18 year old for him. One for one swap. I don't care what anyone says Espinoza is far from a sure thing (doesn't mean he won't become something). And nothing in his numbers this year say "can't miss" to me.

The one for one swap for a pitcher who could be a 2/3 guy is great. We protected other assets. I'd do the trade again and again.

Looking at the game log. Pomeranz had 5 starts where he didn't give us a decent to good chance to win. I'd imagine that if those 18? or so starts were started by a combination of Owens/Johnson/Kelly we could have managed to do a lot worse.

The fatigue was predictable but seemingly a problem confined only to this season. His 9 rates remained very good with us and his walk rates actually improved. He had a HR/FB of 20% that is definitely an aberration.

He is either going to be a bullpen piece in the playoffs or they are resting him up to give him shot at starting with Clay ready to go that day as well

BoSox47
09-29-2016, 04:32 PM
Pomeranz had a nice stretch but he also had 2 bad stretches with us as well. One as soon as he got here and then again in September. Even if he was healthy I wouldn't put him in the playoff rotation. Pomeranz was largely unproven before he came here and has a 4.91 ERA with the Red Sox which is pretty poor value for the 15th best prospect in baseball.