PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Annual Top-30 Players in the NBA: #7



Shammyguy3
07-11-2016, 08:46 PM
Here we go, kicking off #7. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. ????

CHANGO
07-11-2016, 09:14 PM
Gotta go with the guy with the best D and also who can carry a team offensively (was tempted to go with Dray but not enough sample size of him playing without the great supporting cast).

xnick5757
07-11-2016, 09:18 PM
got to be harden here. davis can't stay healthy whereas harden has led the league in minutes played past two years

Shammyguy3
07-11-2016, 09:29 PM
Now is where it gets nuts to me.



James Harden
Jimmy Butler
Paul George
Draymond Green
LaMarcus Aldridge
Blake Griffin
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins

i could see an argument for any of these guys here. To me, Butler is the best SG in the league, but i understand the value that Harden brings offensively can't be matched by any other player remaining to vote for. Paul George is a versatile SF that hasn't had a secondary star to support him, yet he still posts good numbers across the board. Green is a DPOY caliber player who is the biggest mismatch in the league. LMA's success this past season to me showed he is arguably the best PF. Cousins is the only elite center which holds a lot of value. And Blake is the most versatile pF that can lead a team to the playoffs as well.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 10:08 PM
Anthony Davis on his inability to stay on the court alone should immediately be disqualified. There is no more important attribute in the NBA, and he has proven to be among the least durable players in the league. Beyond that, his impact simply paled in comparison to Draymond. It's one stat, but take note that AD did not even crack the top ten POWER FORWARDS in RPM, whereas Draymond was #2 in the league overall. There is a mantra that AD is a great defender, the fact of the matter is that he is probably not even a 'good' defender. His day may come (if he stays healthy), but last season was a major step in the wrong direction, and frankly he should not be listed in the top 10, let alone in this spot.

Going with Draymond here. Arguably the most impactful defender in the NBA, and a supremely versatile offensive 4. One of the most unique players in history, to be sure. I understand that this is a popularity contest for most, but AD should not even receive consideration over him, let alone votes.

Chrisclover
07-11-2016, 10:59 PM
got to be harden here. davis can't stay healthy whereas harden has led the league in minutes played past two years
Yea, Harden is absolutely a Top 10 player. The 7th is justified. The reason why he can't be ranked higher is his insane ball usage and lack of defense.

HandsOnTheWheel
07-11-2016, 11:02 PM
Harden.

TylerSL
07-11-2016, 11:46 PM
Voted Davis, but it was really close between him and Harden.

7- Davis
8- Harden
9- Butler
10- Aldridge

Those guys probably round out my top 10, and the first six are the exact same as mine, except Westbrook and Leonard are swapped.

cmellofan15
07-12-2016, 09:48 AM
gonna go with harden. has been incredibly efficient offensively, has dragged a group of bums for the most part to the playoffs this past year and the conference finals the year before. can't go with a guy who can't stay healthy or a system guy above him.

Chronz
07-12-2016, 09:49 AM
Its Harden, for the past 3-4 years nobody has carried the load he has, pretty sure he leads everyone in minutes so I can forget a few defensive lapses here and there. RWB really isn't that much better defensively and people had no problem with him going as high as he did.

Compared to AD whos lack of defensive dominance actually holds his team back and the guy cant stay on the court. I dont even have AD ahead of Blake Griffin at this point

NYKalltheway
07-12-2016, 11:49 AM
I've been going AD for a few spots now :D Time to get him somewhere otherwise I won't bother voting again haha

DR_1
07-12-2016, 12:50 PM
Davis and easily. If Harden had played defense this year it would have been him though.

mightybosstone
07-12-2016, 01:17 PM
Its Harden, for the past 3-4 years nobody has carried the load he has, pretty sure he leads everyone in minutes so I can forget a few defensive lapses here and there. RWB really isn't that much better defensively and people had no problem with him going as high as he did.

Compared to AD whos lack of defensive dominance actually holds his team back and the guy cant stay on the court. I dont even have AD ahead of Blake Griffin at this point

This. Harden has done more for his team the last two seasons than any other player in the league. I don't even know how people can justify a vote for Davis over Harden. The guy is crazy overrated as a defender, hasn't played 70 games in a season, he's not remotely the offensive player Harden is, and he's played in a total of one playoff series since he's been in the league.

mightybosstone
07-12-2016, 02:15 PM
For the voters who picked Green, I understand your vote, but I don't agree with it. Green is an excellent No. 3 offensive option and versatile two-way weapon who can make a good team great. I definitely think he's been the second best player on the Warriors and one of the five best defensive players in the league But if Draymond Green was your best player, you are almost certainly a lottery team. He does not have remotely the workload that Harden has, nor would he be capable of carrying that kind of load for a playoff contender.

I do think I would very seriously consider voting for Green in the top 10, but he's most certainly not a better NBA player than James Harden.

mightybosstone
07-12-2016, 02:17 PM
Davis and easily. If Harden had played defense this year it would have been him though.

Davis has a greater defensive load, and one could argue that his mediocrity on that end of the floor is more impactful than Harden's atrocious defensive effort. Hell, he anchored the 26th best defense in the league last year for a team that gave up more points than the Rockets.

tredigs
07-12-2016, 04:09 PM
For the voters who picked Green, I understand your vote, but I don't agree with it. Green is an excellent No. 3 offensive option and versatile two-way weapon who can make a good team great. I definitely think he's been the second best player on the Warriors and one of the five best defensive players in the league But if Draymond Green was your best player, you are almost certainly a lottery team. He does not have remotely the workload that Harden has, nor would he be capable of carrying that kind of load for a playoff contender.

I do think I would very seriously consider voting for Green in the top 10, but he's most certainly not a better NBA player than James Harden.

It's not about "carrying a load" to me. That alludes to offense alone, for one. He's a top 1-3 defensive player, and arguably a top-5 most versatile all around player in NBA history. There's no lineup you can put him in where he has shown to be a liability (no Shaq helps) on either end of the floor, and moreover he makes those lineups DRAMATICALLY better. His versatility is what allows the Warriors death lineup to be what it is on both ends (via being able to guard opposing 5's and having the ability to both stretch them out to 3 pt depth, dribble-drive them or dribble-dish on them). That ability on both ends would make every team in the league soooo much better. His #2 rating in RPM is not a fluke. Being top-10 in VORP the past two seasons was not a fluke. B2B All-NBA Defensive 1st Teams and runner-up to DPOY seem correct (if not underrating him due to not winning one). And his All-NBA 2nd Team seems correct (if not underrating him).

I'm good with Harden here because his offensive ability is so daunting, but I don't subscribe to the concept that Draymond could not be the best player on teams that could be top contenders (which is the underlying theme I've seen with fans perception of him). Knowing how much effort he's going to give night in night out and knowing that he's a rock from a potential injury standpoint, I'd still rather have him then Harden (tho' tight depending on the situation), and it's not even CLOSE between him and AD.

D-Leethal
07-12-2016, 05:41 PM
Draymond is extremely vital to the Warriors ability to do what they do but no way in hell he could be top gun on a top 5 NBA team.

tredigs
07-12-2016, 06:57 PM
Draymond is extremely vital to the Warriors ability to do what they do but no way in hell he could be top gun on a top 5 NBA team.

"Top Gun". "Carry". These all alude to players who take the most shots. Ben Wallace was the best, most impactful player on a championship team. His offensive ability was relegated to offensive rebounding alone, and I'd take him in his prime over Harden 10/10 times. Draymond is not him defensively, but he's about the best we have in this NBA (plus far more versatile defensively than Big Ben), and worlds better offensively.

He could very easily be the best player on a top 5 team.

GodsSon
07-12-2016, 07:16 PM
I'm going with PG13.

DW3421
07-12-2016, 07:41 PM
got to be harden here. davis can't stay healthy whereas harden has led the league in minutes played past two years

Bingo!

Sadds The Gr8
07-13-2016, 12:08 AM
wow harden really hated here. Losing to AD???

Chronz
07-13-2016, 12:12 AM
cmon lads .

FlashBolt
07-13-2016, 12:20 AM
PG13 for me. Complete all around player.

mightybosstone
07-13-2016, 11:48 AM
wow harden really hated here. Losing to AD???

The Harden hate is very real on PSD. If he returns to his 2014-15 form, I wonder if he'll still be hated this much a year from now.

FOXHOUND
07-13-2016, 12:25 PM
I agree with people saying that Anthony Davis is way too injury prone to be valued this high. I also agree with people who think that James Harden's team killing style and all-time bad defense also makes this too high for him.

My compromise here is going with one Paul George. He's not as efficient as you would like him to be, but overall still a very good offensive player. To go with his rebounding, D and all out effort, that's a player to build around.

That has me thinking, though, and makes me wish I wasn't so hasty with my vote. Is there any logical reason why Klay Thompson isn't an option to vote for but someone like John Wall is? Personally, I would take Klay and Butler at SG before Harden, but at least those two are there. I would argue Klay being right there as a contender for #7.

tredigs
07-13-2016, 02:44 PM
I agree with people saying that Anthony Davis is way too injury prone to be valued this high. I also agree with people who think that James Harden's team killing style and all-time bad defense also makes this too high for him.

My compromise here is going with one Paul George. He's not as efficient as you would like him to be, but overall still a very good offensive player. To go with his rebounding, D and all out effort, that's a player to build around.

That has me thinking, though, and makes me wish I wasn't so hasty with my vote. Is there any logical reason why Klay Thompson isn't an option to vote for but someone like John Wall is? Personally, I would take Klay and Butler at SG before Harden, but at least those two are there. I would argue Klay being right there as a contender for #7.

Yeah, I noticed Klay's omission and it makes no sense, but I'm sick of arguing all-things Warriors on here (never had to once do so in the past, but now that they're always the topic of conversation and actually "hated on" quite a bit, c'est la vie). Most think Klay's a top 15 player, some top 10 (was listening to Simmons podcast the other day and he sort of says he's top10 flippantly, like it's a given. Which I don't agree with, but he's close. 12 or 13 feels right to me). Certainly top 18 or however many names are on here.

As for AD, yeah, people really need to understand that not only is he a majorly flawed defender despite having incredible raw ability, the 20+% of games that he's a LOCK to miss every single season just takes him out of the running. That's far, far too much time missed to be taken over the players who actually play. In 4 years the LEAST amount of games he has missed was 14 games (17% of the season). Tim Duncan missed MORE than 17% of the season two times in his entire career 19 year career (once being this year). It matters much more than we're giving it credit for here.

FlashBolt
07-13-2016, 03:22 PM
PSD hates Harden because as good as he is, he's shown zero willingness to be a leader or show an example. You know your teammates hate you when they don't even care if you make the game-winner in the playoffs.. When guys like Curry or LeBron make it, their teammates are all over them. I personally think he can go anywhere from 6-8 but the reality is he needs to improve on those two areas of his game. He's pretty much elite offensively but you can't quit on defense and disappear when your team needs a leader.

IKnowHoops
07-13-2016, 03:24 PM
"Top Gun". "Carry". These all alude to players who take the most shots. Ben Wallace was the best, most impactful player on a championship team. His offensive ability was relegated to offensive rebounding alone, and I'd take him in his prime over Harden 10/10 times. Draymond is not him defensively, but he's about the best we have in this NBA (plus far more versatile defensively than Big Ben), and worlds better offensively.

He could very easily be the best player on a top 5 team.

Basically why the two of us agree that Lebron is better than Curry right?:)

tredigs
07-13-2016, 03:33 PM
Basically why the two of us agree that Lebron is better than Curry right?:)

Haha. Curry was day in day out throughout the season better, but not in the playoffs (after the sprain and tear). Debatable if Lebron in the post-season was better than Curry in the regular season. He was awesome, to be sure. Definitely fine with those ranking him #1 and I would tend to agree until I see that Curry has his normal bounce back.

FlashBolt
07-13-2016, 03:36 PM
Defensive players should support offensive players; not the other way around.

FlashBolt
07-13-2016, 03:37 PM
Haha. Curry was day in day out throughout the season better, but not in the playoffs (after the sprain and tear). Debatable if Lebron in the post-season was better than Curry in the regular season. He was awesome, to be sure. Definitely fine with those ranking him #1 and I would tend to agree until I see that Curry has his normal bounce back.

Meh, I always knew LeBron was better. Putting up the better season never really changed my mind. We all know LeBron doesn't really care about regular season. I know that's a slight on Curry because regular season does mean something but LeBron's at that point where regular season is just another game. He's been too successful at it to care. The sheer difference in his energy during the playoffs confirmed that for me.

mightybosstone
07-13-2016, 03:51 PM
PSD hates Harden because as good as he is, he's shown zero willingness to be a leader or show an example. You know your teammates hate you when they don't even care if you make the game-winner in the playoffs.. When guys like Curry or LeBron make it, their teammates are all over them. I personally think he can go anywhere from 6-8 but the reality is he needs to improve on those two areas of his game. He's pretty much elite offensively but you can't quit on defense and disappear when your team needs a leader.
You clearly haven't paid any attention the last week, chief.

As for the game winner, that video was completely overblown. I watched that game, and they completely choked at the end. Even Dwight said that was the reason why guys weren't more excited about it. They should have never been in the position for Harden to make that shot in the first place. It had literally nothing to do with liking or disliking James.

tredigs
07-13-2016, 04:19 PM
Meh, I always knew LeBron was better. Putting up the better season never really changed my mind. We all know LeBron doesn't really care about regular season. I know that's a slight on Curry because regular season does mean something but LeBron's at that point where regular season is just another game. He's been too successful at it to care. The sheer difference in his energy during the playoffs confirmed that for me.

Well, that sort of undermines the entire fact that Curry was not even close to the level or consistency in the playoffs after the 2 week hiatus as he was all year. You see that Curry in the Finals and we're having a different discussion. It's not as if top-tier teams/players were not going at GS all season and trying to take him down a notch in any way imaginable, it was just futile. Now, there's this mantra that he's simply not as good when teams try against him. To be blunt, it's complete stupidity to think that. It's why I mentioned Lebron in the post-season compared to Curry reg-season as a more apt comparison - and a worthy one.

FlashBolt
07-13-2016, 04:22 PM
You clearly haven't paid any attention the last week, chief.

As for the game winner, that video was completely overblown. I watched that game, and they completely choked at the end. Even Dwight said that was the reason why guys weren't more excited about it. They should have never been in the position for Harden to make that shot in the first place. It had literally nothing to do with liking or disliking James.

Last week to what? I'm talking about his game. What did he play last week? Are you trying to convince people here that Harden is a leader at all? He just sucks at defense and then makes his teammates inbounds the ball to him like he's Jordan. And of course that's why Dwight said that... "We weren't happy because we don't like Harden." Oh yeah, let's say that one instead.

mightybosstone
07-13-2016, 04:32 PM
Last week to what? I'm talking about his game. What did he play last week? Are you trying to convince people here that Harden is a leader at all?
I'm not talking about leading on the court. I'm talking about what he did off the court by signing an extension, helping recruit competent offensive players to the roster and all the good press he's earned in the city of Houston over the last week via the letter, press conferences, etc. The guy is ACTUALLY trying to lead for a change. If you want to criticize him for playing poor defense or his poor mannerisms on the court last season, that's fine. But don't say the guy isn't stepping up to the plate to lead, because for the first time since he's been in Houston, he's finally doing that.


He just sucks at defense and then makes his teammates inbounds the ball to him like he's Jordan. And of course that's why Dwight said that... "We weren't happy because we don't like Harden." Oh yeah, let's say that one instead.
Yes, I understand that Harden doesn't play defense. This is not an original though, dude. EVERYBODY knows how bad he was on defense last year, and I don't need you to reiterate it 20 times for me. But I think you're wrong if you assume that the team doesn't like him. That's way, way off the mark. Guys like Ariza and Beverley loves James. He's pretty damn well liked by most of his teammates.

As for that one shot, I think you're just eating out of the media's hand if you think it was that big of a deal. ESPN made a much bigger deal out of it than it should have been, and so have fans. It was a single moment of a single game in a series the Rockets were definitely going to lose. Let it go.

IKnowHoops
07-14-2016, 02:15 AM
Haha. Curry was day in day out throughout the season better, but not in the playoffs (after the sprain and tear). Debatable if Lebron in the post-season was better than Curry in the regular season. He was awesome, to be sure. Definitely fine with those ranking him #1 and I would tend to agree until I see that Curry has his normal bounce back.
:cheers:

IKnowHoops
07-14-2016, 02:25 AM
You clearly haven't paid any attention the last week, chief.

As for the game winner, that video was completely overblown. I watched that game, and they completely choked at the end. Even Dwight said that was the reason why guys weren't more excited about it. They should have never been in the position for Harden to make that shot in the first place. It had literally nothing to do with liking or disliking James.

I'm sorry I don't believe that. Same exact situation with any other superstar they cheer. And a few did cheer like any real player would.

I am not a Harden Basher at all. I blame Harden for nothing. Any player on that bench who doesn't get excited needs to be traded. That was embarrassing. I know you love your team Mighty, and I respect that, but the only way you act like that is if you wanted the shot to miss, or you didn't care if it went in at all...which means you gots to go.

IKnowHoops
07-14-2016, 02:40 AM
Well, that sort of undermines the entire fact that Curry was not even close to the level or consistency in the playoffs after the 2 week hiatus as he was all year. You see that Curry in the Finals and we're having a different discussion. It's not as if top-tier teams/players were not going at GS all season and trying to take him down a notch in any way imaginable, it was just futile. Now, there's this mantra that he's simply not as good when teams try against him. To be blunt, it's complete stupidity to think that. It's why I mentioned Lebron in the post-season compared to Curry reg-season as a more apt comparison - and a worthy one.

I mean I agree with this mostly. Its not about teams trying, but its about having the personnel, the game plan, and the highest level of intensity that they have ever played with in there life, and any great player can be drastically slowed down. Pistons did it to Jordan, Spurs did it to Lebron, and the Cavs just did it to Curry. If you simply replace Wade with Lebron, Curry could of averaged 30 ppg during the finals. But there was a good amount of time that an engaged Lebron was guarding Curry. And Lebron was all over him even when he wasn't involved with the play. He pushed him, elbowed him, hung on him, held him and there wasn't much Curry could do to a guy that is so much bigger, and stronger, and athletic who is getting away with all contact against you off the ball.

Personel/gameplan/ridiculous motor and attention to detail. Need all 3 to slow curry down. Him not being 100% helps a lot too. Didn't stop him from dropping 17 in overtime 3 weeks pryor, but you need a lot in your favor to stop Curry, and the Blazers just had the injury on there side and that wasn't enough.

More-Than-Most
07-14-2016, 02:54 AM
bah

More-Than-Most
07-14-2016, 02:55 AM
Stop... Just stop... Curry was doing so much worse when he actually tried to defend... Defense matters and curry is bad at it... I love how we try to give every excuse for curry but **** on James every chance people.. Curry had no bounce but was ****ing jumping around like nothing was wrong pregame and in practice... Now its curry cant do anything when he is defended? If you are the best player in the world you better step your game up and curry had open look after open look and was just missing on top of turning the ball over with his behind the back pretty passes and then toss in his foul trouble because he is the first best player in the league ever to be attacked on defense like he was and he failed miserably. Was he injured some? sure... But what was the excuse the year before? 2 straight finals he dropped the ball period and I am pretty sure that is why he ran out and sent durant that text practically begging him to join the warriors because now when he has a bad finals they will likely still win and all will be forgotten.

Allphakenny1
07-14-2016, 11:52 AM
Did Curry really play bad in his first NBA finals? I'm just going off of memory, but I only remember like 2 tough games for him. After he adjusted to Delly's defense I thought he played great. Basktball-Reference shows he averaged 26 points, 5.2 rebounds, 6.3 assists, and 1.8 steals per game. That looks like a pretty good stat line to me. All that while facing the traps and double teams from a very good Cleveland defense.

FOXHOUND
07-14-2016, 12:17 PM
Yeah, I noticed Klay's omission and it makes no sense, but I'm sick of arguing all-things Warriors on here (never had to once do so in the past, but now that they're always the topic of conversation and actually "hated on" quite a bit, c'est la vie). Most think Klay's a top 15 player, some top 10 (was listening to Simmons podcast the other day and he sort of says he's top10 flippantly, like it's a given. Which I don't agree with, but he's close. 12 or 13 feels right to me). Certainly top 18 or however many names are on here.

As for AD, yeah, people really need to understand that not only is he a majorly flawed defender despite having incredible raw ability, the 20+% of games that he's a LOCK to miss every single season just takes him out of the running. That's far, far too much time missed to be taken over the players who actually play. In 4 years the LEAST amount of games he has missed was 14 games (17% of the season). Tim Duncan missed MORE than 17% of the season two times in his entire career 19 year career (once being this year). It matters much more than we're giving it credit for here.

Yeah, don't see how it's fair or logical to omit any All-NBA players in this discussion. Shout out to Kyle Lowry, too. At this stage in the voting I think it gets really tight. Klay can be top 10, or he can be in that 10-13 range like you said. There really are a lot of players here who are fairly close and personal preference will decide a lot.

Yup, AD's D is not there yet beyond his blocks and steals and his health is a major issue. If we're talking about who do I want for just one game, that would help him lol.

Tony_Starks
07-14-2016, 12:19 PM
Pg-13

cmellofan15
07-14-2016, 01:10 PM
not a single case has been made for the guy who has the most votes lmao

JLynn943
07-14-2016, 02:18 PM
Pg-13

That's where my vote would have gone.

Chronz
07-14-2016, 02:33 PM
not a single case has been made for the guy who has the most votes lmao
Facking *******

tredigs
07-14-2016, 02:36 PM
Anthony Davis (with zero written backers) smh. You guys are hopeless! Lol.

IKnowHoops
07-14-2016, 03:56 PM
Davis Davis Davis...I voted for Davis...there.

tredigs
07-14-2016, 04:13 PM
Davis Davis Davis...I voted for Davis...there.

Well when you put it like that, I completely understand the vote...

Bruno
07-14-2016, 05:55 PM
Chronz, Digs, you cats lose a lot of money on DFS betting on Davis last year? Steal your grandmothers purse?

tredigs
07-14-2016, 06:12 PM
Chronz, Digs, you cats lose a lot of money on DFS betting on Davis last year? Steal your grandmothers purse?

Good argument, Bruno? : /

But yes, if I was a DFS player and played him, clearly that would be a losing endeavor.

Any other AD backers have more top-notch analysis here? Lol. Feel free to respond to any of the posts calling him out, for starters.

More-Than-Most
07-14-2016, 07:11 PM
I didnt vote because I refuse to vote for that POS harden. There is not a player I hate more

Bruno
07-14-2016, 07:43 PM
Good argument, Bruno? : /
haha, common man.


But yes, if I was a DFS player and played him, clearly that would be a losing endeavor.

most of the year yes but this one worked out alright.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602210DET.html


Any other AD backers have more top-notch analysis here? Lol. Feel free to respond to any of the posts calling him out, for starters.

haha. fine.

CHANGO
07-14-2016, 07:44 PM
Good argument, Bruno? : /

But yes, if I was a DFS player and played him, clearly that would be a losing endeavor.

Any other AD backers have more top-notch analysis here? Lol. Feel free to respond to any of the posts calling him out, for starters.

Anthony Davis on DFS? Hell naw. He's the kind of player that one night gives you 60 FD-DK pts and then the other day gives you A BIG FAT 0 because he's injured or something like that.

Davis shouldn't be considered here.
Harden is a cancer to his team defense and chemistry.

It is between PG and Draymond.

CHANGO
07-14-2016, 07:45 PM
And BTW, PG13 is another hell naw DFS player for me. He is inconsistent as **** there.

Bruno
07-14-2016, 07:59 PM
And BTW, PG13 is another hell naw DFS player for me. He is inconsistent as **** there.

true, but thats why he costs under 9k most of the time. George gives 10k production or 7.5k production every other game.

he also gets no credit for his defense in DFS. I actually think George is better than Harden too you just can't build an advanced metric argument around it. I get the Harden arguments but George can take all-stars out of a series- look at Toronto.

The logic I stick to with Davis is that he's the only player left on the board with 30.0 PER and .250 ws/48 type abilities. I get that he had a down year, I get that he's missed 20% of his career. But this is about right now. He managed a 25.0 PER last season on one leg with a torn labrum with a new coach in a new system on the most injury plagued team in the league. the labrum has been torn for a year, possibly longer. the knee is already healed and he's shooting now. He was incredible against the Warriors in the playoffs. He's in for a monster season and I look forward to gloating after I bump this thread in februray once Harden is getting blamed for Houston being the 9th seed with 20 games to go in the regs, especially if the Pelicans are right there fighting with them.

/****-post.

Chronz
07-14-2016, 09:48 PM
You cant vote based on potential bruno. Just think of Shawn Marion or Amare back in the day. Very productive throughout but werent as important to winning games without the guard play to set them up. We'll see if AD expands his range but based on last year, pulling him away from the rim was a bad move.

Chronz
07-14-2016, 09:51 PM
Paul George is a fine mention if you are the type to consider apex playoff abilities. Like I have no doubt Harden would lead my team to more wins simply because hes so skilled but in a playoff series, I do trust PG to lock in defensively. Its a shame we havent seen Harden in a role where he could play off another dynamic threat because he used to be an elite off the ball threat and he would guard Kobe with respectable effort in his youth.

FlashBolt
07-15-2016, 01:03 AM
I like Paul George here for a few reasons but mainly:

1) Elite level defender. He is long and quick enough to guard most elite players and does so at a high level.
2) He has established himself as one of the best all-around players. Probably a top five two-way player.
3) Always shows up in big moments. Doesn't rely on one particular offensive arsenal in his game. Very talented player offensively.
4) Saw a lot in terms of leadership from him this season. You can tell players on his team respect him such as Turner.
He'll be getting more help with Teague/Jefferson coming in and I like how Turner has played the second half of the season.

CHANGO
07-15-2016, 06:14 PM
true, but thats why he costs under 9k most of the time. George gives 10k production or 7.5k production every other game.

he also gets no credit for his defense in DFS. I actually think George is better than Harden too you just can't build an advanced metric argument around it. I get the Harden arguments but George can take all-stars out of a series- look at Toronto.

The logic I stick to with Davis is that he's the only player left on the board with 30.0 PER and .250 ws/48 type abilities. I get that he had a down year, I get that he's missed 20% of his career. But this is about right now. He managed a 25.0 PER last season on one leg with a torn labrum with a new coach in a new system on the most injury plagued team in the league. the labrum has been torn for a year, possibly longer. the knee is already healed and he's shooting now. He was incredible against the Warriors in the playoffs. He's in for a monster season and I look forward to gloating after I bump this thread in februray once Harden is getting blamed for Houston being the 9th seed with 20 games to go in the regs, especially if the Pelicans are right there fighting with them.

/****-post.

TRUE. But even at 7.9k he can't give you a 4.5 or 5x production. And that sucks. In terms of DFS honestly the best players are Harden, Westy and Cousins, but defense doesn't count there. Lebron is a sure thing but not enough high floor.

But yeah, in terms of reality I like PG here for his versatility and defense. Davis hasn't convinced me yet.

FlashBolt
07-15-2016, 10:17 PM
I'm not talking about leading on the court. I'm talking about what he did off the court by signing an extension, helping recruit competent offensive players to the roster and all the good press he's earned in the city of Houston over the last week via the letter, press conferences, etc. The guy is ACTUALLY trying to lead for a change. If you want to criticize him for playing poor defense or his poor mannerisms on the court last season, that's fine. But don't say the guy isn't stepping up to the plate to lead, because for the first time since he's been in Houston, he's finally doing that.


Yes, I understand that Harden doesn't play defense. This is not an original though, dude. EVERYBODY knows how bad he was on defense last year, and I don't need you to reiterate it 20 times for me. But I think you're wrong if you assume that the team doesn't like him. That's way, way off the mark. Guys like Ariza and Beverley loves James. He's pretty damn well liked by most of his teammates.

As for that one shot, I think you're just eating out of the media's hand if you think it was that big of a deal. ESPN made a much bigger deal out of it than it should have been, and so have fans. It was a single moment of a single game in a series the Rockets were definitely going to lose. Let it go.

I'm not sure what leading has been done. Maybe you have a better idea but from the outside looking in, most people would agree that Harden isn't a natural leader. His teammates didn't give a damn about his gamewinner. I cannot recall that ever happening regardless of the chemistry the teammates have with one another. Then you look at defense. Sorry I got to keep hammering it to you but the reality is the reality. Harden hasn't played good defense since his second year at OKC. He's been pretty bad since and has looked worse as the years go by. Defense has more to do with effort than skill. He's showing zero effort and appreciation for half the game and that has a lot to do with leadership on the court. Off the court, neither of us know the guy but the best player he had on his team in Houston has dipped, coach has been fired for what I think has been his frustration with Harden. Why do you want to let his teammates not celebrating his gamewinner go? That's a locker-room issue that you are trying to avoid. The issue with Harden is he's a top offensive player in this league who if had comparable defense to Paul George or Butler, would be an instant top five player. It's actually a good thing he's ranked that highly but doesn't play much defense. It's all effort, man. He gets caught sleeping more than a handful amount of times a game.

mightybosstone
07-16-2016, 12:01 AM
I'm not sure what leading has been done. Maybe you have a better idea but from the outside looking in, most people would agree that Harden isn't a natural leader. His teammates didn't give a damn about his gamewinner. I cannot recall that ever happening regardless of the chemistry the teammates have with one another. Then you look at defense. Sorry I got to keep hammering it to you but the reality is the reality. Harden hasn't played good defense since his second year at OKC. He's been pretty bad since and has looked worse as the years go by. Defense has more to do with effort than skill. He's showing zero effort and appreciation for half the game and that has a lot to do with leadership on the court. Off the court, neither of us know the guy but the best player he had on his team in Houston has dipped, coach has been fired for what I think has been his frustration with Harden. Why do you want to let his teammates not celebrating his gamewinner go? That's a locker-room issue that you are trying to avoid. The issue with Harden is he's a top offensive player in this league who if had comparable defense to Paul George or Butler, would be an instant top five player. It's actually a good thing he's ranked that highly but doesn't play much defense. It's all effort, man. He gets caught sleeping more than a handful amount of times a game.

Let's just say we agree to disagree. And since I watched every second of that game and understand the makeup of that team better, I'll go ahead and take my word for it over yours.

Shammyguy3
07-17-2016, 01:17 AM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?912377-8th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA-Today

continue here;

i myself am pretty surprised that Anthony Davis took this slot

FlashBolt
07-18-2016, 12:09 PM
Let's just say we agree to disagree. And since I watched every second of that game and understand the makeup of that team better, I'll go ahead and take my word for it over yours.

Typical response from a homer, tbh.