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View Full Version : Bird says he'd never team with Magic; doesnt mention McHale Parish Johnson Walton



JasonJohnHorn
07-09-2016, 10:32 AM
In response to KD signing with the Warriors, Bird says that he'd never had teamed up with Magic.

read more here: http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/larry-bird-i-could-never-imagine-joining-magic-johnson-417106.html

Forgetting the fact that he did, in fact, team up with Magic for the Dream team, the thing that I hate when the old timers come up with this they never mention how AMAZING their teams were without a fellow MVP.

Yeah... I get it... Magic and Bird were both drafted by teams that became immediate contenders with them. Bird was soon playing with McHale, Parish and Dennis Johnson, not to mention Cedric Maxwell and later Walton. He had three MVPs on his team that were role players (Maxwell-Finals MVP; Walton-reg season + Finals MVP; and Johnson- Finals MVP). And those guys weren't even among the three best players on the team: Bird, McHale, and Paris, ALL HOFers, were the best. And on top of that, he later got to play with Reggie Lewis, who was among the best guards in the league. OF COURSE Bird never felt the need to play with Magic: he had a stacked team.

Magic was in the same situation. He already have an 5-time MVP on his roster: Kareem. They had Nixon, and Michael Cooper, then Worthy (a Finals MVP winner as well), and then Green and Scott and Perkins. The Lakers were stacked as well.

In OKC, Durant didn't have Michael Cooper or Dennis Johnson: he had Dion Waiters (because his team let Harden AND Kevin Martin go). He didn't have Kareem or Parish: he had Adams and Kanter. He didn't have McHale, or Walton, or Worthy: he had Ibaka.

Yes, he had Westbrook on his team, but with the Lakers and the Celtics of the 80's, there were 4 or 5 guys on the floor who warranted double teams or dedicated one-man coverage: there are three guys on the floor at a given time who it isn't worth giving dedicated one-man coverage to in OKC.


LBJ joined the Heat. KD joined the Warriors. BFD. Their teams had done a $#!T job building around them. Nobody said Dr. J was cheating when he joined the 76ers to topple the Bird and Magic super teams. These old timers have no place criticising young guys today because they are going through issues that Bird and Magic never had to deal with.

Thoughts? Is Bird right? Or does he need to look back at those rosters he played with to see where KD is coming from?

ewing
07-09-2016, 10:33 AM
do you really hold a broken down Bill Walton against him? if Ray Allen signs with the Cavs this off season should we hold it against Bron?

nycericanguy
07-09-2016, 10:41 AM
weren't there only like 20 or 22 teams back then? There was more talent on each team because there were less teams.

but these guys didn't go team up with other stars, it was just circumstance.

Chronz
07-09-2016, 10:46 AM
Everyone has different situations, when Bird says this he should clarify if he could envision a situation where he does leave Boston. If he says no then you have your answer, dude just wouldn't join anyone. If he says yes, then you ask him just how talented of a teammate do they have to be, in order for you to be OK playing with him.


I think the reason he brings up Magic is because they've been rivals for so long and had some history in the Finals, you know things that would've transpired before his theoretical contract was up and joining FA. Magic and the Lakers were DIRECT RIVALS. In a very similar vein to OKC-GSW playing each other for the right to lose to LeBron this year.



What I've been begging to ask guys who hate Brons decision. Who exactly could he have joined (cuz you cant possible think Cleveland deserved to keep him at that time) where you guys dont hold it against him?

hugepatsfan
07-09-2016, 11:00 AM
You need to have great players to win but there's a different between playing with great players and the absolute best teaming up with the other absolute best players.

Sometimes it works out like that. Magic got drafted to play with Kareem. Shaq signed with the Lakers when Kobe was a rookie. But I'm sorry, that's not the same as a top 3 player deciding he's going to leave his team to join another established top 3 player (and another top 10 player and another top 15 player no less) so they can run train on the NBA together.

hugepatsfan
07-09-2016, 11:01 AM
LBJ joined the Heat. KD joined the Warriors. BFD. Their teams had done a $#!T job building around them. Nobody said Dr. J was cheating when he joined the 76ers to topple the Bird and Magic super teams. These old timers have no place criticising young guys today because they are going through issues that Bird and Magic never had to deal with.

You said it right here. They teamed up to beat someone else. They didn't just ***** out and go join the someone else.

D-Leethal
07-09-2016, 11:02 AM
Everyone has different situations, when Bird says this he should clarify if he could envision a situation where he does leave Boston. If he says no then you have your answer, dude just wouldn't join anyone. If he says yes, then you ask him just how talented of a teammate do they have to be, in order for you to be OK playing with him.


I think the reason he brings up Magic is because they've been rivals for so long and had some history in the Finals, you know things that would've transpired before his theoretical contract was up and joining FA. Magic and the Lakers were DIRECT RIVALS. In a very similar vein to OKC-GSW playing each other for the right to lose to LeBron this year.



What I've been begging to ask guys who hate Brons decision. Who exactly could he have joined (cuz you cant possible think Cleveland deserved to keep him at that time) where you guys dont hold it against him?

I think any of the suitors outside of the super friends he would have come out with a pristine rep. Everyone knew he needed to leave Cleveland - although it should be noted that at the time a lot of the moves made were too appease and fit with LeBon, but once accumulated they ended up way over the cap without a Robin for him. But the Superfriends was this era's Jordan teaming up with the 3rd best player in the league and that was an unprecedented FA maneuver that was perceived as a chump move. It set the table for moves like Durant.

JasonJohnHorn
07-09-2016, 11:02 AM
do you really hold a broken down Bill Walton against him? if Ray Allen signs with the Cavs this off season should we hold it against Bron?

He had his healthy season on years with Boston and won 6th man of the year. And besides, he was one of no less than FIVE HOFers on that roster.

D-Leethal
07-09-2016, 11:03 AM
In response to the OP, Durant has a top 5 player on his team, a ready made contender and arguably the 2nd/3rd best team in the NBA so not sure where the McHale-DJ stuff is relevant.

hugepatsfan
07-09-2016, 11:05 AM
Oh and from the OP:


In OKC, Durant didn't have Michael Cooper or Dennis Johnson: he had Dion Waiters (because his team let Harden AND Kevin Martin go). He didn't have Kareem or Parish: he had Adams and Kanter. He didn't have McHale, or Walton, or Worthy: he had Ibaka.

What a ridiculous paragraph. You're going to ignore Westbrook (top 5 player) so you can compare all the lesser guys to the greats past guys played with and then just throw in at the start of the next paragraph like oh yeah he had Westbrook too.

:laugh:

hugepatsfan
07-09-2016, 11:09 AM
What I've been begging to ask guys who hate Brons decision. Who exactly could he have joined (cuz you cant possible think Cleveland deserved to keep him at that time) where you guys dont hold it against him?

This is actually a great question. You're right that CLE wasn't a place he could win. Granted, he takes some blame in that because part of why their cap was so F'd up was him applying pressure on them that he'd leave and pushing them into short-sighted moves. But the bottom line is that it wasn't a good situation.

It's very unique because that was such a loaded class that everyone was gearing for a couple of guys. So there weren't a lot of established teams he could go to. It was always going to be him picking guys from his FA class to play with.

I can't really answer TBH because I don't remember the teams. I can tell you this for sure though - Lebron was good enough that he didn't need the #3 player on his team. He certainly could have won without that.

FlashBolt
07-09-2016, 11:22 AM
Let's think of this from a competition standpoint. Celtics at that time had a top roster. OKC this year had a top roster. End of discussion. Bird running to the Lakers after 85 would actually be the equivalent of this ****ery.

D-Leethal
07-09-2016, 11:27 AM
This is actually a great question. You're right that CLE wasn't a place he could win. Granted, he takes some blame in that because part of why their cap was so F'd up was him applying pressure on them that he'd leave and pushing them into short-sighted moves. But the bottom line is that it wasn't a good situation.

It's very unique because that was such a loaded class that everyone was gearing for a couple of guys. So there weren't a lot of established teams he could go to. It was always going to be him picking guys from his FA class to play with.

I can't really answer TBH because I don't remember the teams. I can tell you this for sure though - Lebron was good enough that he didn't need the #3 player on his team. He certainly could have won without that.

The bold doesn't get talked about enough when talking about the Cleveland team he bailed on.

D-Leethal
07-09-2016, 11:29 AM
Pretty sure the teams with max cap that year were:

Cleveland
Dallas
Miami
Chicago
Knicks
Nets
Clips

valade16
07-09-2016, 11:51 AM
Larry Bird got hurt for the entire season in 1989, the Celtics won 42 games.

That's not even as much as the Westy-led Thunder won without Durant and not near the 73 win Warriors.

KD is a coward, stop trying to find a way around it.

Heediot
07-09-2016, 12:10 PM
We can all sit here and be critics of KD and James. It's easy to say one would do this and that without really being in that position.

ewing
07-09-2016, 12:32 PM
Larry Bird got hurt for the entire season in 1989, the Celtics won 42 games.

That's not even as much as the Westy-led Thunder won without Durant and not near the 73 win Warriors.

KD is a coward, stop trying to find a way around it.


Snap. Vlade stepping up

naps
07-09-2016, 01:38 PM
All these old-timers are salty as hell. They hate the media exposures players these days get and the money they earn. You dont need to team up with anyone when your own team is stacked as ****. If Bird was not in right situation, he might very well be another ringless "just a good" player.

Vinylman
07-09-2016, 02:36 PM
Lmao

Bill Walton played two years. Except that in 87 he played only 10 games

In 86 he was good but only played 19 minutes a game...

There is no one listed in the OP other than bird that is even close to. Steph/Durant/klay

All the GS guys are at their peak ... Boston in 86 not even close

You can't just throw out a bunch of names without context

Aust
07-09-2016, 02:50 PM
Forgetting the fact that he did, in fact, team up with Magic for the Dream team,

The OLYMPICS?? Are you kidding me OP... Grasping at straws here man


Larry Bird got hurt for the entire season in 1989, the Celtics won 42 games.

That's not even as much as the Westy-led Thunder won without Durant and not near the 73 win Warriors.

KD is a coward, stop trying to find a way around it.

Gutless coward*

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmzkxHxVYAAc95J.jpg:large

latinofire21
07-09-2016, 03:00 PM
Everyone has different situations, when Bird says this he should clarify if he could envision a situation where he does leave Boston. If he says no then you have your answer, dude just wouldn't join anyone. If he says yes, then you ask him just how talented of a teammate do they have to be, in order for you to be OK playing with him.


I think the reason he brings up Magic is because they've been rivals for so long and had some history in the Finals, you know things that would've transpired before his theoretical contract was up and joining FA. Magic and the Lakers were DIRECT RIVALS. In a very similar vein to OKC-GSW playing each other for the right to lose to LeBron this year.



What I've been begging to ask guys who hate Brons decision. Who exactly could he have joined (cuz you cant possible think Cleveland deserved to keep him at that time) where you guys dont hold it against him?

I am one of the guys who hold it against Lebron. What bothered me was a couple things. he teased a bunch of fan bases giving them hope he would go there. Me being a Knicks fan he had his show the decision in NY only to say hes taking less than the max to team up with top 10 talent at the time in their prime to go to Miami. He is an ego driven diva. That was my problem with him. Had he taken the max and Bosh and Wade took less to play with him my problem would be with Wade and Bosh. When you are at the peak of your career and you take less to get an easy championship yes I have a problem with that.

I don't like what Durant did either but this is the player unions fault and no one elses. They didn't want a gradual cap and they wanted it bursted open. These things happen when that occurs. Durant is just a ***** in my opinion for joining the team that defeated him. At least hes getting paid the max to do it.

flea
07-09-2016, 04:09 PM
Bird joined a crappy team and turned it into a championship team in his 2nd year. McHale was a 6th man for half of Bird's prime and they played the same position. Parish was a solid 2-way big, but he was basically what Ibaka or Horford is today. Certainly beneficial to any team, often underrated, but not a star. Walton? Old broken junk. Maxwell? Nobody but Celts die-hards would remember his name if he hadn't played with Bird. DJ? The question would be posed better by asking if he would join a team - but his joining Bird's team was more like if Mike Conley or something had joined the Spurs.

Terrible comparison if your point is that Bird staying and building a team is the same as Durant or Lebron forming superteams to destroy their conference's competition. If Bird had gotten Moses to join a young Wilkins with him in Atlanta, that would be about like what Lebron did. If Bird would have just straight up joined the Showtime Lakers that would be what Durant has done. The NBA is a farce when it comes to competition, they just continue to find new ways to make that fact apparent.

TheMightyHumph
07-09-2016, 04:09 PM
Larry Bird never joined any player, they joined him.

Julius didn't sign with the Sixers to combat Bird's Celtics.

Julius was SOLD to the Sixers and played in the NBA for three seasons before Bird was drafted.

FOXHOUND
07-09-2016, 05:41 PM
It's a competition thing, some of these modern players just clearly aren't about it. Bird would never join Magic because he wanted to beat Magic. Jordan didn't force a trade to join Detroit after failing to beat them because he wanted to beat Detroit. The best players should want to beat the best players to feed their competitive drive. Isn't that what sports is about? Competition? What LeBron did in 2010 and 2014 and Durant did in 2016 are just sad decisions.

LeBron should have wanted to beat Wade in 2010, not join him. He could have joined the Knicks with Amare, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler to form a formidable team. He could have joined the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng and Gibson to form an even better one. Wade could have had Bosh plus another big FA or multiple to fill out the roster in Miami and would have been battling LeBron's Bulls/Knicks. It would have been tremendous for the NBA. Instead, we were left with a joke of an eastern conference playoffs where the Heat weren't remotely challenged until the ECF. Even then, it was moderately so except for the Pacers one year and Boston another assisted by injury.

Then, after 4 straight Finals and two championships, he bolts back to Cleveland because they were stacking #1 overall picks and top 4 selections in Thompson and Waiters to allow for them to be super stacked. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean he went home. :laugh2:

If Durant really lost confidence in WB or OKC as a whole, he should have went somewhere else. He should have went to Boston, where they have great role players, a very good 3rd player in Isaiah Thomas and could have formed with another top FA like Horford. But that would mean battling LeBron in the eastern conference, and ending up on a team that's maybe less talented than OKC. God forbid. :rolleyes:

BKLYNpigeon
07-09-2016, 06:39 PM
Players moved and forced trades all the time.

Wilt Chamberlain forced a trade to Philly and then to LAL to play with Jerry West

Barkley forced a trade to the up and coming PHX Suns at the age of 28.

Moses Malone left to go play with DR J.


Magic never had to do it because he won a Ring his Rookie Year. He was also locked into a 20 year 25mil contract. lol.

Kevj77
07-09-2016, 08:16 PM
They didn't need to team up with anyone because they had Red Auerbach and Jerry West two of the best GMs ever giving them stacked teams year after year. Imagine how good the Celtics could have been if Len Bias didn't pass away.

PowerHouse
07-09-2016, 09:25 PM
Larry Bird never joined any player, they joined him.

Julius didn't sign with the Sixers to combat Bird's Celtics.

Julius was SOLD to the Sixers and played in the NBA for three seasons before Bird was drafted.

Yea that had me scratching my head too. Maybe he meant to say Moses Malone?

tredigs
07-09-2016, 09:42 PM
weren't there only like 20 or 22 teams back then? There was more talent on each team because there were less teams.

but these guys didn't go team up with other stars, it was just circumstance.

Guess what else was just circumstance? Bron's decision, as well as KD's decision. This whole notion of "No other top player has ever joined such a dominant team before!". A) Debatable. B) This situation is a combination of factors that occurs once a generation. If every other superstar in history had his exact choice, rest assure, MANY of them would have taken it.

tredigs
07-09-2016, 09:46 PM
Yea that had me scratching my head too. Maybe he meant to say Moses Malone?

He probably did mean Malone, and Moses was the reigning MVP when he joined Dr. J's Sixers - who were in the Finals only a year prior.

lol, please
07-09-2016, 10:03 PM
In response to KD signing with the Warriors, Bird says that he'd never had teamed up with Magic.

read more here: http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/larry-bird-i-could-never-imagine-joining-magic-johnson-417106.html

Forgetting the fact that he did, in fact, team up with Magic for the Dream team, the thing that I hate when the old timers come up with this they never mention how AMAZING their teams were without a fellow MVP.

Yeah... I get it... Magic and Bird were both drafted by teams that became immediate contenders with them. Bird was soon playing with McHale, Parish and Dennis Johnson, not to mention Cedric Maxwell and later Walton. He had three MVPs on his team that were role players (Maxwell-Finals MVP; Walton-reg season + Finals MVP; and Johnson- Finals MVP). And those guys weren't even among the three best players on the team: Bird, McHale, and Paris, ALL HOFers, were the best. And on top of that, he later got to play with Reggie Lewis, who was among the best guards in the league. OF COURSE Bird never felt the need to play with Magic: he had a stacked team.

Magic was in the same situation. He already have an 5-time MVP on his roster: Kareem. They had Nixon, and Michael Cooper, then Worthy (a Finals MVP winner as well), and then Green and Scott and Perkins. The Lakers were stacked as well.

In OKC, Durant didn't have Michael Cooper or Dennis Johnson: he had Dion Waiters (because his team let Harden AND Kevin Martin go). He didn't have Kareem or Parish: he had Adams and Kanter. He didn't have McHale, or Walton, or Worthy: he had Ibaka.

Yes, he had Westbrook on his team, but with the Lakers and the Celtics of the 80's, there were 4 or 5 guys on the floor who warranted double teams or dedicated one-man coverage: there are three guys on the floor at a given time who it isn't worth giving dedicated one-man coverage to in OKC.


LBJ joined the Heat. KD joined the Warriors. BFD. Their teams had done a $#!T job building around them. Nobody said Dr. J was cheating when he joined the 76ers to topple the Bird and Magic super teams. These old timers have no place criticising young guys today because they are going through issues that Bird and Magic never had to deal with.

Thoughts? Is Bird right? Or does he need to look back at those rosters he played with to see where KD is coming from?

That's why Bird gets respect, for not joining with a rival.

Thing here is, KD and Curry aren't rivals, never were, so again, we feel the need to make a big deal out of this why? Is Durant just supposed to sit with the Thunder and rot?

Saddletramp
07-09-2016, 10:06 PM
Players moved and forced trades all the time.

Wilt Chamberlain forced a trade to Philly and then to LAL to play with Jerry West

Barkley forced a trade to the up and coming PHX Suns at the age of 28.

Moses Malone left to go play with DR J.


Magic never had to do it because he won a Ring his Rookie Year. He was also locked into a 20 year 25mil contract. lol.

Barley's team didn't even the make the playoffs the year that he demanded the trade. Lol. Whatever helps you justify this unparralelled cowardice and unprecedented pussification.

TheMightyHumph
07-09-2016, 11:00 PM
Barley's team didn't even the make the playoffs the year that he demanded the trade. Lol. Whatever helps you justify this unparralelled cowardice and unprecedented pussification.

Of course you mean 'Barkley'.

So you believe that you are the all-knowing one that sets the rules on when it is NBA-proper for a player to demand a trade or, as a free agent, decide if he should leave his team.

With knowledge like that, you must be a member of the 'Illuminati', and very successful in the field you have chosen as a career. Congratulations!

Saddletramp
07-10-2016, 12:10 AM
Of course you mean 'Barkley'.

So you believe that you are the all-knowing one that sets the rules on when it is NBA-proper for a player to demand a trade or, as a free agent, decide if he should leave his team.

With knowledge like that, you must be a member of the 'Illuminati', and very successful in the field you have chosen as a career. Congratulations!

Not sure which is worse, that auto correct or your response. At least the autocorrect is trying to make sense.

Jesus, dude. One guy had a dumpy team and wasn't good enough to even lead his team to the playoffs and he's being compared to Durant? I love Barkley, but I don't put him on the same level as Durant. ESPN did that Top 500 or whatever player list this year and Durant is already ahead of Barkley and he probably has another ten years to go. This would be like if Barkley left that Suns team that lost to the Bulls and joined Jordan.



Gimme a ****ing break.

Saddletramp
07-10-2016, 12:13 AM
That's why Bird gets respect, for not joining with a rival.

Thing here is, KD and Curry aren't rivals, never were, so again, we feel the need to make a big deal out of this why? Is Durant just supposed to sit with the Thunder and rot?

And that's why KD is losing respect. He joined a rival. If you don't think two of the top perennial teams in the West are rivals, then I don't know what to tell you.

And Durant wasn't "rotting". He was the head of a hugely successful team (without a few lost years to injuries, who knows what they might have won). Keep digging that hole, though.

Saddletramp
07-10-2016, 12:20 AM
Guess what else was just circumstance? Bron's decision, as well as KD's decision.

Yes, and the circumstances were different. One guy left a meandering team where he was the only one to make a difference and he joined an unproven commodity. The other left a Top 4 team and joined the regular season record breaking team that was two choke plays from the title making them two consecutive time champs.


This whole notion of "No other top player has ever joined such a dominant team before!". A) Debatable. B) This situation is a combination of factors that occurs once a generation.

A) Not debatable. That team set the regular season record after winning a title and almost winning again. No team has ever done that. B) True.


If every other superstar in history had his exact choice, rest assure, MANY of them would have taken it.

And they would have taken a hit for it.


Didn't Durant say he wasn't going to base his decision on money and then he signs this 1+1 deal to try to get more money? Wouldn't it be in the team's best decision to sign long term now?

LA_Raiders
07-10-2016, 03:22 AM
Add Content

Aust
07-10-2016, 03:33 AM
Chronz already answered the Wilt Chamberlain one.

MagicBucsSox
07-10-2016, 07:30 AM
weren't there only like 20 or 22 teams back then? There was more talent on each team because there were less teams.

but these guys didn't go team up with other stars, it was just circumstance.
26

One Nut Kruk
07-10-2016, 12:34 PM
Different times, different era. Nobody knows what these old guys would have done in this day and age, not even themselves.

DR_1
07-10-2016, 01:28 PM
So sick of the Durant hate. The fact is he could not get a guarantee from Westbrook that he would stay if KD himself did. So I think leaving was a foregone conclusion at that point and makes sense. It would have been better had he not gone to the Warriors but that was his choice.

TheMightyHumph
07-10-2016, 02:39 PM
Not sure which is worse, that auto correct or your response. At least the autocorrect is trying to make sense.

Jesus, dude. One guy had a dumpy team and wasn't good enough to even lead his team to the playoffs and he's being compared to Durant? I love Barkley, but I don't put him on the same level as Durant. ESPN did that Top 500 or whatever player list this year and Durant is already ahead of Barkley and he probably has another ten years to go. This would be like if Barkley left that Suns team that lost to the Bulls and joined Jordan.



Gimme a ****ing break.

Nice way of sidestepping the issue of how wrong you are.

I guess when anyone in here wishes to change jobs, you should be consulted first.

Saddletramp
07-11-2016, 12:05 AM
So twatty. People can do what they want to but they better be prepared to be judged accordingly. I'm not the end all/be all for thinking Durant is a chump for this but apparently I have to be the only one to think so or it's not valid for some inane reason.

What an awful post. Go away.

KingJudah
07-11-2016, 12:16 AM
Of course bird wouldn't join a rival, bird is cut from a different cloth unlike durant.

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 01:45 AM
That's why Bird gets respect, for not joining with a rival.

Thing here is, KD and Curry aren't rivals, never were, so again, we feel the need to make a big deal out of this why? Is Durant just supposed to sit with the Thunder and rot?

Could have been WCF rivals for many years... He just didn't want it.

Hawkeye15
07-11-2016, 09:58 AM
Does the cap/player salary structure ever come up in these hypothetical conversations? Like, there wasn't even a reason to leave as a star back then, you actually hurt yourself financially in many cases..

Are we to believe if a player could leave, and make as much money elsewhere back then, they would still never leave? Nah, I don't buy it. You know what they did instead? Forced trades..

Tony_Starks
07-11-2016, 10:21 AM
Anyone that wants to just parrot the typical "of course not, their teams were stacked" rhetoric, do your homework on the Celtics prior to Birds arrival. He gave them one of the biggest turnarounds in history. And we all know what rookie Magic did in the Finals.

Don't get it twisted they didn't just walk into ready made contenders, they MADE their teams instant contenders.

Then all their gm's had to do from there was just add the right pieces, and unlike the majority of today's gm's they actually knew what the hell they were doing.

Vinylman
07-11-2016, 10:39 AM
26

what year are you talking about?

not 1985

Vinylman
07-11-2016, 11:05 AM
Does the cap/player salary structure ever come up in these hypothetical conversations? Like, there wasn't even a reason to leave as a star back then, you actually hurt yourself financially in many cases..

Are we to believe if a player could leave, and make as much money elsewhere back then, they would still never leave? Nah, I don't buy it. You know what they did instead? Forced trades..

most forced trades were due to money... the kids on this forum just aren't old enough to know that.

That though tells you that the old "super team" was a product of guys wanting money ... not stacking teams...

I remember when the Nets wouldn't sign Bob McAdoo and I knew the Lakers would get him. He held out for money and when kupchak and Kareem got hurt the Lakers bought him for a second and a ton of cash.

or when Maurice Lucas went to phoenix and gave the Lakers a hard time for a couple of years... of course the Lakers then traded for him in 85 and the rest is history

or when the Lakers traded for Mychal Thompson from the spurs... the spurs were so broke *** that their owner Angelo Drossos held out for $500k in cash... I even remember Jerry West joking that they could play a round of gold for it and if Drossos won he could have the cash... Of course the Lakers gave in and gave him the money anyway but it just shows how desperate some of these teams were back in the day for cash.

Anyway, KD can do whatever he wants... but people definitely have the right to downgrade his legacy for doing it.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-11-2016, 12:59 PM
Players moved and forced trades all the time.

Wilt Chamberlain forced a trade to Philly and then to LAL to play with Jerry West

Barkley forced a trade to the up and coming PHX Suns at the age of 28.

Moses Malone left to go play with DR J.


Magic never had to do it because he won a Ring his Rookie Year. He was also locked into a 20 year 25mil contract. lol.

None of those players joined a record setting 73 win team that just eliminated him the year before. And neither did Lebron.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-11-2016, 01:08 PM
It's funny seeing a couple of Knicks fans upset that Lebron didn't join the Knicks lol. What a joke.

I've said it before... if you can't see the difference between what Lebron and Durant did then you are lost. Lebron never would have done what Durant just did. Durant didn't just join another couple of great players (like Lebron did). Durant also joined a proven TEAM that won 73 games, a championship before that, and a team that literally just eliminated him after he's the one who choked.

Lebron didn't sign with the Celtics. He formed a super team with his buddies because he felt he needed their help to beat the Celtics. And guess what... he was right. There is a bit of cowardice in that, but also plenty of rational thought in that. It wasn't the best move on his part and he could have gone about it in a different way, but he was right in that he was never going to beat Boston without some help and he needed to leave Cleveland to accomplish that.

Different story for Durant. The Thunder have a great supporting cast and came so close to beat Golden State. His team didn't let them down. He let them down. His role players stepped up and he couldn't close it out. Then he goes and signs with the team that he choked against. Give me a break. There are no excuses. The man lacks balls and he just doesn't get it. He doesn't respect the challenge of competition and he is a coward.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-11-2016, 01:12 PM
Anyone that wants to just parrot the typical "of course not, their teams were stacked" rhetoric, do your homework on the Celtics prior to Birds arrival. He gave them one of the biggest turnarounds in history. And we all know what rookie Magic did in the Finals.

Don't get it twisted they didn't just walk into ready made contenders, they MADE their teams instant contenders.

Then all their gm's had to do from there was just add the right pieces, and unlike the majority of today's gm's they actually knew what the hell they were doing.

If you want to get the respect of being a champion, you have to be a part of the building process. There is no journey in this for Durant. He is just hopping onto an already proven championship team. They have won 140 game over the last two seasons. They don't need Durant to win another championship. People will always downgrade his legacy for this. I can't even imagine what he needs to do on this team to actually get the respect of winning a ring.

Tony_Starks
07-11-2016, 02:25 PM
If you want to get the respect of being a champion, you have to be a part of the building process. There is no journey in this for Durant. He is just hopping onto an already proven championship team. They have won 140 game over the last two seasons. They don't need Durant to win another championship. People will always downgrade his legacy for this. I can't even imagine what he needs to do on this team to actually get the respect of winning a ring.

Umm win a ring?

I'll think he'll take the ring and let us fight about the respect. Not everybody respects all Lebrons rings, Kobe actually has the unique distinction of having people try to take away some of his...there's always going to be that.

Can't please everybody. The hall of fame doesn't care how you got it.

Howard_Zinn
07-11-2016, 02:41 PM
Bird is right here. I watched the NBA in the 80s. It was still that way in the 90s too. Players would not "team up", unless they were at the end of their career and half the player they used to be. Even then, you barely ever saw it. Anyone that tries to justify what Durant is doing, obviously never saw the glory years of the NBA. I guess it's just people's mentality these days. I feel sorry for young fans of today that never saw the league at it's best.

Hawkeye15
07-11-2016, 02:58 PM
most forced trades were due to money... the kids on this forum just aren't old enough to know that.

That though tells you that the old "super team" was a product of guys wanting money ... not stacking teams...

I remember when the Nets wouldn't sign Bob McAdoo and I knew the Lakers would get him. He held out for money and when kupchak and Kareem got hurt the Lakers bought him for a second and a ton of cash.

or when Maurice Lucas went to phoenix and gave the Lakers a hard time for a couple of years... of course the Lakers then traded for him in 85 and the rest is history

or when the Lakers traded for Mychal Thompson from the spurs... the spurs were so broke *** that their owner Angelo Drossos held out for $500k in cash... I even remember Jerry West joking that they could play a round of gold for it and if Drossos won he could have the cash... Of course the Lakers gave in and gave him the money anyway but it just shows how desperate some of these teams were back in the day for cash.

Anyway, KD can do whatever he wants... but people definitely have the right to downgrade his legacy for doing it.


Exactly. People act like players/teams haven't been doing things for their own good forever. I mean, KAJ won multiple MVP's, and a championship, then just went, "Peace out, I don't like the Midwest, trade me". Shaq left a team that went to the finals in FA.

The structure (if we can even call it that) of the cap in the 70's, 80's, and even as they actually put a cap in throughout those years, didn't even really allow the colluding, or monster FA that we see now happen. So it's easy for players to sit back and say this now, from back then. These opportunities weren't available, but under the table deals and negotiations involving breaking franchises was the norm. Market pull back then meant evn more.

Hawkeye15
07-11-2016, 03:06 PM
Anyone that wants to just parrot the typical "of course not, their teams were stacked" rhetoric, do your homework on the Celtics prior to Birds arrival. He gave them one of the biggest turnarounds in history. And we all know what rookie Magic did in the Finals.

Don't get it twisted they didn't just walk into ready made contenders, they MADE their teams instant contenders.

Then all their gm's had to do from there was just add the right pieces, and unlike the majority of today's gm's they actually knew what the hell they were doing.

no ready made contender is landing a top talent since the modern lottery system started. How many years did it take Magic/Bird/Kobe/Duncan to get theirs? 2? If that? How many years did it take for LeBron? The answer is until he became his own GM.

Hawkeye15
07-11-2016, 03:11 PM
If you want to get the respect of being a champion, you have to be a part of the building process. There is no journey in this for Durant. He is just hopping onto an already proven championship team. They have won 140 game over the last two seasons. They don't need Durant to win another championship. People will always downgrade his legacy for this. I can't even imagine what he needs to do on this team to actually get the respect of winning a ring.

So we discard Shaq's by that thought line. Cause he left a team that went to the finals to go to the Lakers in free agency.

ewing
07-11-2016, 04:40 PM
no ready made contender is landing a top talent since the modern lottery system started. How many years did it take Magic/Bird/Kobe/Duncan to get theirs? 2? If that? How many years did it take for LeBron? The answer is until he became his own GM.


maybe if he was better at basketball.

Kevj77
07-11-2016, 07:14 PM
Anyone that wants to just parrot the typical "of course not, their teams were stacked" rhetoric, do your homework on the Celtics prior to Birds arrival. He gave them one of the biggest turnarounds in history. And we all know what rookie Magic did in the Finals.

Don't get it twisted they didn't just walk into ready made contenders, they MADE their teams instant contenders.

Then all their gm's had to do from there was just add the right pieces, and unlike the majority of today's gm's they actually knew what the hell they were doing.The Celtics only had two down years in 78 and 79. They won the championship in 74 and 76. Red Auerbach made two brilliant moves in the span of a few years. He drafted Bird after his junior year knowing he was going to stay in school back then you could keep the players rights for up to a year. He got the #1 overall pick and the #13 a couple years later (somehow despite the team winning 61 games he was obviously stockpiling assets) and traded them to the Warriors for Parish and the #3 pick which he used on McHale.

He gambled that Bird would sign before they lost his rights and that the player he wanted McHale would still be there at #3 in order to add Parish. Sure Bird had a great rookie year, but once he got Parish and McHale it was a team ready to win championships.

It's right up there with Jerry West going all in to sign Shaq and gambling on a high school kid named Kobe.

It's also worth mentioning the Magic won a championship as a rookie and Bird won his first in his second year. That took a lot of pressure off of them.

lol, please
07-11-2016, 08:28 PM
Could have been WCF rivals for many years... He just didn't want it.

So you think Durant came to the Warriors to not face them in the playoffs? You don't even believe that.

Saddletramp
07-12-2016, 05:11 AM
So you think Durant came to the Warriors to not face them in the playoffs? You don't even believe that.

How could you not believe that? If Curry smashed his ankles up again and was never the same and Green got banned for life because he can't stop nut punting dudes then do you think Duramt would've joined? Of course not. He wants an easy ring or two so he joined them. It's cowardly and the fact that you keep downplaying it then don't respond when you're put in your place is downright embarrassing.


It's like talking to a brick wall. Only brick walls don't



Ahhhhh forget it. You're just a lost cause.

Chronz
07-12-2016, 10:31 AM
maybe if he was better at basketball.

You tryna argue that an injured Kobe is better than Peak Bron? Maybe it had more to do with the fact that he was on a team that could win a Finals game with Kobe playing less than a quarter of basketball. The same team Kobe would go on to hold back to the point where his coach wanted him traded.

ewing
07-12-2016, 11:05 AM
You tryna argue that an injured Kobe is better than Peak Bron? Maybe it had more to do with the fact that he was on a team that could win a Finals game with Kobe playing less than a quarter of basketball. The same team Kobe would go on to hold back to the point where his coach wanted him traded.


maybe Bron was better at basketball he would have won sooner.

Tony_Starks
07-12-2016, 11:21 AM
maybe Bron was better at basketball he would have won sooner.

Bron was 9th seed in the east his first 2 years missing the playoffs.

In the JV league that is hard to do....

Chronz
07-12-2016, 12:11 PM
maybe Bron was better at basketball he would have won sooner.

Oh absolutely, for example if he had shot 80% instead of the meager marks he put up in Cleveland they prolly win his rookie year.



..........





why hold him to impossible standards when its far more reasonable to ask he get decent support. You know, the kind Bird had when he won or the kind that can win a Finals game without you even being there.

Chronz
07-12-2016, 12:21 PM
Bron was 9th seed in the east his first 2 years missing the playoffs.

In the JV league that is hard to do....

You mean his rookie year as a teenager?

As for his 2nd year, the East and West both had power teams in Miami and Detroit and the SOS isn't much different, it wasn't the LEASTERN conference it was a few years earlier nor what it would become a few years later .

You forget,2005 was when a prime Kobe refused to put a good word in for Phil+Shaq, he wanted the challenge of leading a team. So yes, Bron missed the playoffs by 0 GAMES and wound up 42-40 at AGE 20. This earned him All-NBA 2nd team credentials. Meanwhile what was an in his prime Kobe doing......????

Wound up with a worse record than LeBron did, despite being older AND having more talent alongside him. Playing in the Western Conference doesn't give you permission to be way less productive and successful.

So congrats, in your attempt to belittle a 20 year old LeBron, you're only showing us how far ahead he was of MJ AND Kobe at the same age. His talent is crazy huh

Tony_Starks
07-12-2016, 12:54 PM
You mean his rookie year as a teenager?

As for his 2nd year, the East and West both had power teams in Miami and Detroit and the SOS isn't much different, it wasn't the LEASTERN conference it was a few years earlier nor what it would become a few years later .

You forget,2005 was when a prime Kobe refused to put a good word in for Phil+Shaq, he wanted the challenge of leading a team. So yes, Bron missed the playoffs by 0 GAMES and wound up 42-40 at AGE 20. This earned him All-NBA 2nd team credentials. Meanwhile what was an in his prime Kobe doing......????

Wound up with a worse record than LeBron did, despite being older AND having more talent alongside him. Playing in the Western Conference doesn't give you permission to be way less productive and successful.

So congrats, in your attempt to belittle a 20 year old LeBron, you're only showing us how far ahead he was of MJ AND Kobe at the same age. His talent is crazy huh

When you said Kobe had more talent than Bron it just voided your entire attempt at a comparison.

If you think Chris Mims, LO, Luke Walton, Kobe, Chucky Atkins is a better cast then Lebron had, in the stacked west no less, then God Bless you sir!

FOXHOUND
07-12-2016, 01:09 PM
Uh, the Cavs had the best record in the NBA in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. They were top 4 in offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and rebounding differential in 08-09 and top 7 in all three in 09-10. Sorry, that's not because of one guy. Those teams were loaded with good, two-way role players perfectly suited for LeBron-ball. If you want to argue their talent, you can only argue that they lacked either a better 2nd scorer or a better 3rd scorer.

However, Mo Williams was very good in 08-09. He was also good in 09-10, and they added Antwan Jamison and Shaq, who scored an efficient 16 PPG and 12 PPG in just 24 MPG, respectively. But, for funsies about this LeBron and Kobe nonsense...

08-09 Lakers - 65-17. 3rd in ORating, 6th in Drating, 5th in Rebound Differential

Kobe - 26.8 PPG, 4.9 APG, .469/.351/.856 in 36.1 MPG
Pau - 18.9 PPG, 3.5 APG, .567/N/A/.781 in 37.0 MPG
Bynum - 14.3 PPG, 1.4 APG, .560/N/A/.707 in 28.9 MPG
Odom - 11.3 PPG, 2.6 APG, .492/.320/.623 in 29.7 MPG

Nobody else scored 10 PPG

08-09 Cavaliers - 66-16. 4th in ORating, 3rd in DRating, 3rd in Rebound Differential

LeBron - 28.4 PPG, 7.2 APG, .489/.344/.780 in 37.7 MPG
Mo Will - 17.8 PPG, 4.1 APG, .467/.436/.912 in 35.0 MPG
West - 11.7 PPG, 3.5 APG, .457/.399/.833 in 33.6 MPG
Big Z - 12.9 PPG, 1.0 APG, .472/.385/.799 in 27.2 MPG

Nobody else scored 10 PPG

Remember when so many people used to swear up and down that the Lakers were so stacked because of someone like Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum? Then a lot of those same people said the Heat weren't with Chris Bosh and guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Mario Chalmers who all dropped 20 points in Finals games for them?

:rolleyes:

I think those arguments died 5-years ago and some people still want to hold on to them. LeBron didn't know how to win yet, which he displayed in horrible fashion during the 2011 Finals when he had the most stacked team in the NBA. The Cavs were up 2-1 on Boston in the 2010 playoffs before losing three straight. LeBron shot .340/.154/.743 and averaged 6.3 TO per game over the final 3 games. He had already mentally checked out after that game 4 loss and already decided that he was going to team up and "make it easy". Not 1, not 2, not 3...

Tony_Starks
07-12-2016, 01:25 PM
Uh, the Cavs had the best record in the NBA in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. They were top 4 in offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and rebounding differential in 08-09 and top 7 in all three in 09-10. Sorry, that's not because of one guy. Those teams were loaded with good, two-way role players perfectly suited for LeBron-ball. If you want to argue their talent, you can only argue that they lacked either a better 2nd scorer or a better 3rd scorer.

However, Mo Williams was very good in 08-09. He was also good in 09-10, and they added Antwan Jamison and Shaq, who scored an efficient 16 PPG and 12 PPG in just 24 MPG, respectively. But, for funsies about this LeBron and Kobe nonsense...

08-09 Lakers - 65-17. 3rd in ORating, 6th in Drating, 5th in Rebound Differential

Kobe - 26.8 PPG, 4.9 APG, .469/.351/.856 in 36.1 MPG
Pau - 18.9 PPG, 3.5 APG, .567/N/A/.781 in 37.0 MPG
Bynum - 14.3 PPG, 1.4 APG, .560/N/A/.707 in 28.9 MPG
Odom - 11.3 PPG, 2.6 APG, .492/.320/.623 in 29.7 MPG

Nobody else scored 10 PPG

08-09 Cavaliers - 66-16. 4th in ORating, 3rd in DRating, 3rd in Rebound Differential

LeBron - 28.4 PPG, 7.2 APG, .489/.344/.780 in 37.7 MPG
Mo Will - 17.8 PPG, 4.1 APG, .467/.436/.912 in 35.0 MPG
West - 11.7 PPG, 3.5 APG, .457/.399/.833 in 33.6 MPG
Big Z - 12.9 PPG, 1.0 APG, .472/.385/.799 in 27.2 MPG

Nobody else scored 10 PPG

Remember when so many people used to swear up and down that the Lakers were so stacked because of someone like Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum? Then a lot of those same people said the Heat weren't with Chris Bosh and guys like Ray Allen, Shane Battier and Mario Chalmers who all dropped 20 points in Finals games for them?

:rolleyes:

I think those arguments died 5-years ago and some people still want to hold on to them. LeBron didn't know how to win yet, which he displayed in horrible fashion during the 2011 Finals when he had the most stacked team in the NBA. The Cavs were up 2-1 on Boston in the 2010 playoffs before losing three straight. LeBron shot .340/.154/.743 and averaged 6.3 TO per game over the final 3 games. He had already mentally checked out after that game 4 loss and already decided that he was going to team up and "make it easy". Not 1, not 2, not 3...

Truth.

But they won't hear you.

I remember when he checked out of that last game in Boston and the crowd trolling him with "New York Knicks" chants because that's where everyone thought he was going.

Anyway the comparisons are silly...

FOXHOUND
07-12-2016, 01:41 PM
Truth.

But they won't hear you.

I remember when he checked out of that last game in Boston and the crowd trolling him with "New York Knicks" chants because that's where everyone thought he was going.

Anyway the comparisons are silly...

Right, it's completely revisionist history to pretend that those Cavs teams weren't at least good enough to get out of the east or that he didn't fall apart and mentally check out at the end. Everyone knew he was gone, the only real surprise was in the thought process of, no way can he leave his hometown Cavs, right? I think he proved those people didn't know him as well as they thought, especially in the fashion that he did it.

LeBron learned a whole lot in the 2010-11 season and needed that giant serving of humble pie to make him the player he became. The LeBron from the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons that we saw was a whole new player. He was more engaged, more coachable, worked harder and for the first time was truly dedicated to do anything to win. He worked his *** off on his shooting and had by far his best two shooting years. He was more engaged and willing on D than he had ever been before. For the first time, he was actually willing to do the dirty work and use his insane size and skill to dominate in the post. Play PF? No problem, coach. I think that lasted for those two years before he starting flying up his own *** again, but it was a hell of an all-time dominant two-year run.

Now, if THAT LeBron was on those 08-09 and 09-10 Cavs teams, then we would have seen something completely different.

Tony_Starks
07-12-2016, 02:25 PM
Right, it's completely revisionist history to pretend that those Cavs teams weren't at least good enough to get out of the east or that he didn't fall apart and mentally check out at the end. Everyone knew he was gone, the only real surprise was in the thought process of, no way can he leave his hometown Cavs, right? I think he proved those people didn't know him as well as they thought, especially in the fashion that he did it.

LeBron learned a whole lot in the 2010-11 season and needed that giant serving of humble pie to make him the player he became. The LeBron from the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons that we saw was a whole new player. He was more engaged, more coachable, worked harder and for the first time was truly dedicated to do anything to win. He worked his *** off on his shooting and had by far his best two shooting years. He was more engaged and willing on D than he had ever been before. For the first time, he was actually willing to do the dirty work and use his insane size and skill to dominate in the post. Play PF? No problem, coach. I think that lasted for those two years before he starting flying up his own *** again, but it was a hell of an all-time dominant two-year run.

Now, if THAT LeBron was on those 08-09 and 09-10 Cavs teams, then we would have seen something completely different.

Oh absolutely. If the post Wade Lebron was on that '08 team? With that mentality he learned in Miami? Cleveland beats Boston and wins the chip.

I remember vividly we were watching that game against the Celtics and my Dad just kept saying "what's wrong with him?... why is he quitting, the game is still close?" Then even Barkley talking post game about Lebrons body language and you could tell he gave up.

Right then and there I was like this dude is GONE.

hidalgo
07-12-2016, 02:32 PM
Durant is such a sissy for this. sad really...

hidalgo
07-12-2016, 02:33 PM
Larry Bird got hurt for the entire season in 1989, the Celtics won 42 games.

That's not even as much as the Westy-led Thunder won without Durant and not near the 73 win Warriors.

KD is a coward, stop trying to find a way around it.truth, weakest move by a superstar, EVER. coward move

TheMightyHumph
07-12-2016, 02:53 PM
Durant was a FA, free to go to any NBA team that wanted and could afford him.

Somehow many NBA fans believe that THEY are the ones who should decide where KD plays.

Insanity.

Saddletramp
07-12-2016, 07:06 PM
Notice how people have stopped explaining things to you and people like you? He can do what he wants but a lot of people lost respect for him by him choosing the easy way and then saying that it's the "hardest way". He's turned into a coward and it makes me feel dirty for ever thinking he was better than that. When others could choose their destination, he belittled them but now he's doing the same thing but to the greatest regular season and championship team.

I feel so defeated right now like how you try to train your dog to do something simple like "sit" and he just doesn't get it. Or like how a parent tries to train a kid to use the toilet but he repeatedly ***** himself after all the other kids his age are already potty trained. Sad thing is, I didn't think that we were conversing with dogs or 2 year olds. Joke's on me, I guess.

TheMightyHumph
07-12-2016, 07:44 PM
Notice how people have stopped explaining things to you and people like you? He can do what he wants but a lot of people lost respect for him by him choosing the easy way and then saying that it's the "hardest way". He's turned into a coward and it makes me feel dirty for ever thinking he was better than that. When others could choose their destination, he belittled them but now he's doing the same thing but to the greatest regular season and championship team.

I feel so defeated right now like how you try to train your dog to do something simple like "sit" and he just doesn't get it. Or like how a parent tries to train a kid to use the toilet but he repeatedly ***** himself after all the other kids his age are already potty trained. Sad thing is, I didn't think that we were conversing with dogs or 2 year olds. Joke's on me, I guess.

My opinion is that you are taking this all too seriously.

Saddletramp
07-12-2016, 08:19 PM
My opinion is that you are taking this all too seriously.

In real life? No. On a message board with complete strangers? Looks like it.

One Nut Kruk
07-12-2016, 09:16 PM
My opinion is that you are taking this all too seriously.

Agreed. I'm not sure why there are so many people losing sleep over this. They will claim they aren't. But it's pretty obvious butthurt. Like seriously, who cares this much?

Chronz
07-12-2016, 09:33 PM
Who was that brick directed to? Get with the program, were talking about the Cavs that went 42 40.

Hawkeye15
07-13-2016, 11:11 AM
Pop quiz-who was the first unrestricted Free Agent in the NBA?

Chronz
07-13-2016, 11:31 AM
Pop quiz-who was the first unrestricted Free Agent in the NBA?

All I remember are rookies holding out to sign contracts.

Chronz
07-13-2016, 11:52 AM
Truth.


Anyway the comparisons are silly...

Truth? With regards to what? If its our debate you might want to have the decency (objectivity?) to inform him that hes dealing with totally different years.

The comparison is silly. A 20 year old LeBron did more for his team than a 26 year old Kobe despite having less talent alongside him.

Chronz
07-13-2016, 12:01 PM
Uh, the Cavs had the best record in the NBA in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. They were top 4 in offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and rebounding differential in 08-09 and top 7 in all three in 09-10. Sorry, that's not because of one guy. Those teams were loaded with good, two-way role players perfectly suited for LeBron-ball. If you want to argue their talent, you can only argue that they lacked either a better 2nd scorer or a better 3rd scorer.
If Tony or you dont want to finish the debate we can start this one if you'd like. I honestly loved those Cavs, they were fun to watch and had a high level of camaraderie but there is no doubt its the least talented 66 win team in league history. Deep yes, but depth matters significantly less come playoffs. Not sure what you mean by its not because of 1 guy, obviously Bron could be the same player and win 41 games if the team is ****** enough but outside its best guy, theres a reason why the Cavs struggles so much without the fulcom.

Its because he was carrying an ungodly load we've rarely seen from a team with title aspirations. Like we've seen Kobe absolute carry mediocre casts, but they weren't contending. Bron was doing all the heavy lifting for an elite team, both in terms of value and production.

Bron took a team that couldn't win a game without him in 7 tries (IIRC) to the NBA Finals while putting up some historic marks in the process AND defeating the superior Pistons with what many consider one of his greatest games. Dude overachieved in Cleveland.

As for what they were missing, they honestly had bad luck with matchups and injuries. Management always made moves a year late. Brown was an idiot IMO but its hard to blame him for sticking to the big names instead of how the team meshed.

Chronz
07-13-2016, 12:14 PM
Bad breaks for the Cavs include;


Ben Wallace breaking his foot in a collision with Yao Ming. Took him out for a month+ and when he came back he was compensating for one leg so much that the other suffered some kind of knee strain that further set him back just as the playoffs were set to start. The Cavs were the best at defending bigmen and Wallace was their best interior defender. He was a perfect compliment with the weaker but lengthy Zydrunas. With Wallace hobbled, they simply had no one to check Dwight, this fear of Dwight reciprocated the Shaq trade. I fully believe if Wallace had been healthy, the Cavs would have done as well as every other playoff team did against Dwight.

The timing of the injury was doubly damning for one other reason, the alleged Shaq deal that was in the works. Shaq was having an All-Star season and Ferry refused to pull the trigger, in part because of Ben acclimating himself to the team. Had they traded for Shaq, they get him before its too late.

Cavs suffered alot of injuries over the years, check their record and you'll see that so long as Bron was around, they were winning. Sub him out, I fail to see how its not a lottery team as it was later proven to be. Dont mention the peripheral players when they weren't missed in the RS.


Shaq getting injured the following year : TBC

Hawkeye15
07-13-2016, 01:13 PM
All I remember are rookies holding out to sign contracts.

Tom Chambers, 1988. So these old timers complaining are forgetting the fact that they never even were allowed to test FA. It did no benefit for stars to leave their teams financially, ESPECIALLY after the Bird rule was put in place. The free agency jumps became more and more available in the mid 90's, and very popular after the CBA put in place after the KG shutdown.

I do think there needs to be more enticement to stay with your team. But now, even taking less money gives you more money than any of us will make in a lifetime in a single year.