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Shammyguy3
07-08-2016, 07:54 PM
Here we go, kicking off #6. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. ????

Chronz
07-08-2016, 08:06 PM
CP3

Next

DR_1
07-08-2016, 08:36 PM
Davis

Shammyguy3
07-08-2016, 10:53 PM
KB24PG16

i see why you voted for Paul George :laugh2:

CHANGO
07-08-2016, 10:59 PM
Easily CP3, the most complete of the group by far.

FlashBolt
07-09-2016, 03:25 AM
It's amazing how underrated CP3 has become. You rarely hear about how great he is these days. He just put up one of his best seasons and absolutely carried that Clippers team without Blake for part of the season. His Assists/turnover ratio blows every player that averages 10+ assists per game out the water (Rondo is the next closest one but he averages 3 assists per turnover. CP3 is near 4). Conley has a higher Assists/turnover ratio but averages 6 assists per game, played less games, slower pace, and doesn't get half the attention a player like CP3 attracts. Still the best PG defender in the league. easily CP3 here. The gap from 6 to 7 is huge IMO. I'll probably put PG there and I would absolutely take CP3 over PG any day.

kevin13697
07-09-2016, 10:46 AM
I'd like to see this poll done by position.

kevin13697
07-09-2016, 10:50 AM
1 sf
2 pg
3 sf
4 pg
5 sf
6 pg?

Chronz
07-09-2016, 11:14 AM
1 sf
2 pg
3 sf
4 pg
5 sf
6 pg?

lol. good catch

FlashBolt
07-09-2016, 11:23 AM
1 sf
2 pg
3 sf
4 pg
5 sf
6 pg?

Large part because SF's and PG's are expected to be the most versatile players since there is heavy action from those two positions.

breakbad
07-09-2016, 12:00 PM
Well, I interpreted it as who I would want right this very second. Not last year, not next year, the game's today and you gotta pick who is gonna give you the best chance to win. And that is Paul George in my mind. Because, well because I just really think he's awesome. lmao

kevin13697
07-09-2016, 01:11 PM
Large part because SF's and PG's are expected to be the most versatile players since there is heavy action from those two positions.
It's a popularity contest above all.
For what it's worth my top would have been,
1. James
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Davis
5. Harden

cmellofan15
07-10-2016, 07:38 PM
paul then harden

chi-townlove1
07-10-2016, 08:11 PM
I can't vote. But off of pure talent and ability to dominate, I think I'd go with Paul George here to be honest. Harden, Davis, CP3 are all in the discussion.

mightybosstone
07-10-2016, 08:58 PM
I'm fine with Paul winning this, but I do think Harden is the better player at this point in their careers. Not worth arguing at this point in the voting.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 12:56 AM
^ CP3 was certainly easily better than both last season, I hope that's not in question to you. If you do have an actual argument rather than just saying their name with a general sentiment, I'd love to hear it.

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 01:41 AM
Can't put Harden up there because of his lack of defense and leadership. He really needs to improve those two if he wants to take his game to the next level.

CP3>PG>Harden/AD.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 08:48 AM
Can't put Harden up there because of his lack of defense and leadership. He really needs to improve those two if he wants to take his game to the next level.

CP3>PG>Harden/AD.

Yeah. Because Steph Curry played some really stellar defense in the playoffs last year. Good ol' "Lockdown D" Steph! :eyebrow:

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 11:55 AM
Yeah. Because Steph Curry played some really stellar defense in the playoffs last year. Good ol' "Lockdown D" Steph! :eyebrow:

1) Better than Harden at it. At least he tries. Just he's weak and fragile.
2) Curry just put up the greatest offensive season. Pretty sure that counts for something.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 12:10 PM
1) Better than Harden at it. At least he tries. Just he's weak and fragile.
2) Curry just put up the greatest offensive season. Pretty sure that counts for something.

My point isn't that Harden is better than Curry. It's that there's a massive hypocrisy on PSD that Harden is the only superstar in the league who plays poor defense or ever has played poor defense. It's complete BS. Curry gets a pass for some reason because he's an offensive juggernaut. But the guy can be every bit the defensive liability that Harden can be on that end of the floor. The Warriors just do a much better job of hiding him because they have excellent team defenders.

I agree that Harden doesn't put forth that much of an effort on the defensive end of the floor, but I honestly think it's because he's winded because of how much he's forced to do on the offensive end. That's no excuse, but I'm just saying that I've seen the guy play good, above average man on man defense. He basically did that for the entirety of the 2014-15 season. But even if never plays good defense again, he would not be the first superstar in the league to suck on that end of the floor, nor will he be the last. And that shouldn't completely diminish his impact on the game. Because he does literally everything else well.

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 12:15 PM
My point isn't that Harden is better than Curry. It's that there's a massive hypocrisy on PSD that Harden is the only superstar in the league who plays poor defense or ever has played poor defense. It's complete BS. Curry gets a pass for some reason because he's an offensive juggernaut. But the guy can be every bit the defensive liability that Harden can be on that end of the floor. The Warriors just do a much better job of hiding him because they have excellent team defenders.

I agree that Harden doesn't put forth that much of an effort on the defensive end of the floor, but I honestly think it's because he's winded because of how much he's forced to do on the offensive end. That's no excuse, but I'm just saying that I've seen the guy play good, above average man on man defense. He basically did that for the entirety of the 2014-15 season. But even if never plays good defense again, he would not be the first superstar in the league to suck on that end of the floor, nor will he be the last. And that shouldn't completely diminish his impact on the game. Because he does literally everything else well.

Not sure if you have been paying attention but Curry has been getting blasted the entire playoffs for his bad defense. But like I said, Harden doesn't even try to defend anymore. There's a difference in that one tries to play it but just isn't very good because he's small and weak physically while the other guy has shown capability of playing it but cares more about the offensive side of the game.

And I really don't want to hear about him being winded down.. every defensive play, he just stands there. Then when his teammates inbounds the ball to him, he has so much energy to flop, attack the paint, etc. This is a matter of someone who just doesn't like to defend. The "energy" thing is not an excuse

Overall, Curry's defense isn't good either but his offensive season was historic and unprecedented. That's enough to warrant being that high on a ranking.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 12:44 PM
Overall, Curry's defense isn't good either but his offensive season was historic and unprecedented. That's enough to warrant being that high on a ranking.

I'm not suggesting that Harden should be ranked as high as Curry, though. I'm suggesting he at least deserves to be in the top 5 conversation and should be ranked somewhere around 6-7, which is fair.

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 12:56 PM
I'm not suggesting that Harden should be ranked as high as Curry, though. I'm suggesting he at least deserves to be in the top 5 conversation and should be ranked somewhere around 6-7, which is fair.

Not sure why you brought Curry up, then. I have Harden at 8. 7-9 is a matter of opinion at this point. PG/Harden/AD can go anywhere.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 01:03 PM
My point isn't that Harden is better than Curry. It's that there's a massive hypocrisy on PSD that Harden is the only superstar in the league who plays poor defense or ever has played poor defense. It's complete BS. Curry gets a pass for some reason because he's an offensive juggernaut. But the guy can be every bit the defensive liability that Harden can be on that end of the floor. The Warriors just do a much better job of hiding him because they have excellent team defenders.

I agree that Harden doesn't put forth that much of an effort on the defensive end of the floor, but I honestly think it's because he's winded because of how much he's forced to do on the offensive end. That's no excuse, but I'm just saying that I've seen the guy play good, above average man on man defense. He basically did that for the entirety of the 2014-15 season. But even if never plays good defense again, he would not be the first superstar in the league to suck on that end of the floor, nor will he be the last. And that shouldn't completely diminish his impact on the game. Because he does literally everything else well.

lmao. Curry's a net+ on D. Highly intelligent defender team defender who is actually very capable in ISO (#'s + video back that up) and will rarely get lost entirely taking plays off or getting simply owned via not paying attention to back-cuts, etc (A Harden .gif every other night). Leading the league in steals is not a small feat either. There's no defensive play with a higher correlation to points on the other end.

The D is obviously very much a secondary aspect to their games for both players, but when one player is actually a + on D (granted his playoff D being far worse than his regular season D after the MCL tear), it's considered a passing grade. If you're just the utter liability that Harden was, especially when it's from a wing player with more size and strength, that's when he will rightfully get flack. But Curry aside since the two are not in the same league, even a player like CP3 was easily the more productive player on both ends of the court. You have to be better on one end to have an argument over another player, and Harden clearly was not (again, the numbers and tape easily back this up).

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 01:09 PM
lmao. Curry's a net+ on D. Highly intelligent defender team defender who is actually very capable in ISO (#'s + video back that up) and will rarely get lost entirely taking plays off or getting simply owned via not paying attention to back-cuts, etc (A Harden .gif every other night). Leading the league in steals is not a small feat either. There's no defensive play with a higher correlation to points on the other end.

The D is obviously very much a secondary aspect to their games for both players, but when one player is actually a + on D (granted his playoff D being far worse than his regular season D after the MCL tear), it's considered a passing grade. If you're just the utter liability that Harden was, especially when it's from a wing player with more size and strength, that's when he will rightfully get flack. But Curry aside since the two are not in the same league, even a player like CP3 was easily the more productive player on both ends of the court. You have to be better on one end to have an argument over another player, and Harden clearly was not (again, the numbers and tape easily back this up).
I'm not arguing that Harden should be ahead of Paul. I'm arguing that he should be next. As far as Curry's defense goes, I do think he's a better defender than Harden because of the effort. But the last image of him in my mind is from the playoffs, and he was clearly atrocious on that end of the floor in the postseason. You can chalk it up to injury if you like, but the guy was still awful.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 01:11 PM
Not sure why you brought Curry up, then. I have Harden at 8. 7-9 is a matter of opinion at this point. PG/Harden/AD can go anywhere.
Because I think Harden is a better basketball player than those two guys, and I think using defense as the sole barometer to judge the three of them is unfair when Harden is so far ahead of them on the other end of the court and in terms of his overall impact on the game.

FlashBolt
07-11-2016, 01:14 PM
Because I think Harden is a better basketball player than those two guys, and I think using defense as the sole barometer to judge the three of them is unfair when Harden is so far ahead of them on the other end of the court and in terms of his overall impact on the game.

It's close but again, defense is HALF the game. Harden's defensive impact is laughable. Paul George+AD are elite level defenders.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 01:24 PM
Speaking of Draymond in the news, I'd take him over everybody on this list now that CP3's off the board. Just so much smarter and better defensively than AD (#2 on votes here) and has a skill-set offensively that AD doesn't exactly trounce. From an impact standpoint last year, AD was not even close to Green (while just one stat, I think it's telling that AD's RPM graded out extremely poor among PF's this season, while Green was far and away #1), and with him entering his peak age-wise, I would be surprised if that changed in the coming season.

People don't like Draymond though, so I expect that he won't get the vote.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 01:26 PM
It's close but again, defense is HALF the game. Harden's defensive impact is laughable. Paul George+AD are elite level defenders.

Except it's kinda not. At least certainly not in the way we're discussing it. Harden is a pitiful team defender, and although he can be a good man on man defender, he sucked at that last season, too. But what about in terms of rebounding and steals and getting back in transition off of misses and turnovers from the opposing team? These are all defensive areas where he excels. So just providing a blanket statement of "Harden sucks on defense" isn't really providing a complete picture, is it?

Also, his advantage on the offensive side of the ball over those guys is significant. He's not just a better scorer than they are. He's leaps and bounds ahead of them in terms of playmaking and distributing.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 01:29 PM
It's close but again, defense is HALF the game. Harden's defensive impact is laughable. Paul George+AD are elite level defenders.

AD's certainly not an elite-level defender. Has the chassis to be and shows it at times, but he's nowhere close.

tredigs
07-11-2016, 01:32 PM
I'm not arguing that Harden should be ahead of Paul. I'm arguing that he should be next. As far as Curry's defense goes, I do think he's a better defender than Harden because of the effort. But the last image of him in my mind is from the playoffs, and he was clearly atrocious on that end of the floor in the postseason. You can chalk it up to injury if you like, but the guy was still awful.

If playoff-Curry is your image of him, then obviously you are gong to have a massively diminished image of him (as everyone here does). He was nowhere close to his regular self on either end. We saw flashes here and there, but on the aggregate he was slow and diminished overall.

Arguing Harden should be next is fine, he's in that discussion.

mightybosstone
07-11-2016, 01:40 PM
If playoff-Curry is your image of him, then obviously you are gong to have a massively diminished image of him (as everyone here does). He was nowhere close to his regular self on either end. We saw flashes here and there, but on the aggregate he was slow and diminished overall.

Arguing Harden should be next is fine, he's in that discussion.

I honestly think Curry's defense is one of those things you don't notice until it goes bad. Like if Curry was a good defender in the regular season, I probably didn't pay attention to it. I'm too busy watching Green, Thompson and Bogut on that end and then searching for him in transition to see if he's going to pull up and hit a 30-footer. Harden's defense in 2014-15 was the same way. People didn't really pay attention to it because there weren't as many GIFs and clips of him totally failing on that end of the floor. So they just assumed he was still awful because that was the previous narrative of him as a defender.

If you're a great offensive player, fans probably don't notice your defense unless you stand out as being really good or really bad.