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HandsOnTheWheel
06-28-2016, 02:36 PM
So far:
1: Lebron James
2: Stephen Curry

FraziersKnicks
06-28-2016, 02:50 PM
KD or Kawhi here for me.

xnick5757
06-28-2016, 02:56 PM
Westy by a hair over Durant here, mainly because of their relative playoff performances

Hawkeye15
06-28-2016, 03:02 PM
Westbrook for me

ManRam
06-28-2016, 03:05 PM
It brings a tear to my eye seeing Russ finally get the respect he deserves.

I voted for him but Kawhi probably had a slightly better season and KD is still KD. I think a vote for any of those three is fine. They're all such different players that it's hard for me to really be too confident in choosing between them.

Hawkeye15
06-28-2016, 03:18 PM
It brings a tear to my eye seeing Russ finally get the respect he deserves.

I voted for him but Kawhi probably had a slightly better season and KD is still KD. I think a vote for any of those three is fine. They're all such different players that it's hard for me to really be too confident in choosing between them.

Russ will never get his due. But it's on him. In the same game, he will both blow you away with awesomeness, and make you laugh at his idiocy.

Chronz
06-28-2016, 03:50 PM
Its kawhi or Durant

Not sold on rwb having a better year than cp3

Jetsguy
06-28-2016, 04:07 PM
KD gets my vote

Westbrook then Kawhi next

Ebbs
06-28-2016, 04:17 PM
It's Durant by a hair over Leonard.

Next is Paul.

Then and only then should you be voting for Westbrook.

DR_1
06-28-2016, 04:31 PM
KD and then Davis. Big drop off after those 2 (relatively speaking, Westbrook who I would put at 5 is still phenomenal).

mike44
06-28-2016, 04:36 PM
kd. I think the difference in offensive rating, 122 for kd vs 115 for westy, tips the scales to durant. Can't go wrong with either of the two or Leonard here though.

DanG
06-28-2016, 04:59 PM
KD then Westy

wasn't impressed by Kawhi's performance against OKC.

Bruno
06-28-2016, 07:14 PM
Durant played beneath his ability all post-season. his advanced metrics were pedestrian, for KD. pre physical decline, peak Westbrook (26-28) is better than post foot surgery Durant. KD was better to begin with, he'll be better when he's older, but this is the golden window where Westy is better in a scenario where his athleticism hasn't left him, and KD has adjusted his game post foot surgery. When Westy spring drops of, KD will again be the better player.

mngopher35
06-28-2016, 07:24 PM
Durant played beneath his ability all post-season. his advanced metrics were pedestrian, for KD. pre physical decline, peak Westbrook (26-28) is better than post foot surgery Durant. KD was better to begin with, he'll be better when he's older, but this is the golden window where Westy is better in a scenario where his athleticism hasn't left him, and KD has adjusted his game post foot surgery. When Westy spring drops of, KD will again be the better player.

KD did play very well defensively which was great to see from him but overall I agree it wasn't his normal standard. I think there is a decent argument Westy has been better over their last two playoff runs and is the main creator for the team as a whole. They were pretty close in the regular season this year too. I agree by even next year it could be back to KD again though (he was better in the RS 14, just playoffs had the drop off).

Shammyguy3
06-28-2016, 07:27 PM
Durant played beneath his ability all post-season. his advanced metrics were pedestrian, for KD. pre physical decline, peak Westbrook (26-28) is better than post foot surgery Durant. KD was better to begin with, he'll be better when he's older, but this is the golden window where Westy is better in a scenario where his athleticism hasn't left him, and KD has adjusted his game post foot surgery. When Westy spring drops of, KD will again be the better player.

I think Durant being guarded by Leonard, Barnes, Iguodala, Draymond Green was a tougher task than being guarded by Parker, Danny Green, Klay Thompson, Stephen Curry. Also, Durant's 3 ball wasn't falling on a small sample size. It happens. Westbrook himself wasn't all that efficient either these playoffs, and I understand he fills the box-score up with more rebounds and assists, but he was less efficient. Give me the more efficient guy who's better defensively (remember his defense versus Leonard?) and more efficient offensively on the whole.

If Westbrook did what he did in the playoffs, and Durant did in the playoffs, but extrapolated over the entire regular season too then I could buy it.

Durant here, then Leonard, then between CP3/Westy at #5

More-Than-Most
06-28-2016, 07:44 PM
Westbrook is number 2 for me but 3 isnt bad... i cant believe hed fall behind durant though

mngopher35
06-28-2016, 08:10 PM
I think Durant being guarded by Leonard, Barnes, Iguodala, Draymond Green was a tougher task than being guarded by Parker, Danny Green, Klay Thompson, Stephen Curry.

While kinda true, Westbrook having to create for less talented offensive weapons is a tougher task than Durant mostly just getting his. I would argue that consistent responsibility and help he draws when he attacks is tougher than having the tougher 1v1 match up to start. Especially considering Kawhi did spend time on Westy and those pg's didn't spend that much.


Also, Durant's 3 ball wasn't falling on a small sample size. It happens. Westbrook himself wasn't all that efficient either these playoffs, and I understand he fills the box-score up with more rebounds and assists, but he was less efficient. Give me the more efficient guy who's better defensively (remember his defense versus Leonard?) and more efficient offensively on the whole.

First of all Westbrook had an ORTG of 112 while Durant was only at 107 so overall Westbrook was more efficient offensively (EDIT: ahhh after re-reading it looks like you may have been talking in general not playoffs but can we ignore that Durant is falling below him in that category come post season?). On top of that this is the second post season where Westbrook has probably outplayed Durant so slightly larger sample if you include that playoffs as well. Another thing both of those post-seasons have in common is that Westbrook had a higher +/- than Durant so the team suffered more when he was out.


If Westbrook did what he did in the playoffs, and Durant did in the playoffs, but extrapolated over the entire regular season too then I could buy it.

Durant here, then Leonard, then between CP3/Westy at #5

Given that this was the second playoffs in a row and they were pretty close in the regular season I think I gotta give it to Westy. He carries a larger responsibility in running that offense which is also probably a key for me as well. It is pretty close though between Westy/KD and even Kawhi.

CHANGO
06-28-2016, 08:28 PM
Westbrook here for me. I see the Thunder as Westy's team and pretty much does everything for them.

I don't like Leonard as a Top 3 player... NOPE. Gotta be Westy or KD and then KD or Westy.

Shammyguy3
06-28-2016, 08:47 PM
While kinda true, Westbrook having to create for less talented offensive weapons is a tougher task than Durant mostly just getting his. I would argue that consistent responsibility and help he draws when he attacks is tougher than having the tougher 1v1 match up to start. Especially considering Kawhi did spend time on Westy and those pg's didn't spend that much.



First of all Westbrook had an ORTG of 112 while Durant was only at 107 so overall Westbrook was more efficient offensively (EDIT: ahhh after re-reading it looks like you may have been talking in general not playoffs but can we ignore that Durant is falling below him in that category come post season?). On top of that this is the second post season where Westbrook has probably outplayed Durant so slightly larger sample if you include that playoffs as well. Another thing both of those post-seasons have in common is that Westbrook had a higher +/- than Durant so the team suffered more when he was out.



Given that this was the second playoffs in a row and they were pretty close in the regular season I think I gotta give it to Westy. He carries a larger responsibility in running that offense which is also probably a key for me as well. It is pretty close though between Westy/KD and even Kawhi.

I don't fault anyone who picks Westbrook, but take Westbrook off the team and I think that allows Durant to dominate the ball more (he has shown the ability to up his assist rate/numbers when the team needs him to).

mngopher35
06-28-2016, 08:51 PM
I don't fault anyone who picks Westbrook, but take Westbrook off the team and I think that allows Durant to dominate the ball more (he has shown the ability to up his assist rate/numbers when the team needs him to).

That's fair and I am with you on not faulting anyone for their choice here, it's a toss up. Just thought I would bring something to the other side there.

FlashBolt
06-28-2016, 10:19 PM
So hard to choose between Durant or Westbrook but Durant is just too good offensively.

Bruno
06-28-2016, 10:34 PM
I think Durant being guarded by Leonard, Barnes, Iguodala, Draymond Green was a tougher task than being guarded by Parker, Danny Green, Klay Thompson, Stephen Curry.
Leonard guarded Westbrook a lot throughout the series. To start game five, Leonard wasn't guarding Westbrook or Durant, Tony and Danny were. If anything it's a wash, these guys are always guarding different people it's not as black and white as it was in the old days when one guy would guard one guy all game. Klay on Westbrook was the most consistent match up of an elite defender vs. an elite offensive player. Harrison Barnes?


Also, Durant's 3 ball wasn't falling on a small sample size. It happens. Westbrook himself wasn't all that efficient either these playoffs, and I understand he fills the box-score up with more rebounds and assists, but he was less efficient. Give me the more efficient guy who's better defensively (remember his defense versus Leonard?) and more efficient offensively on the whole.
Efficiency matters, but production matters more. We're talking about a 2.7% difference in TS%, but a 6.6 difference in PER for the post-season. Westbrook had a DBPM of 3.8, Durant had 0.9, Westbrook had an OBPM of 8.0, Durant had 0.9, Westbrook had a BPMP of 11.7 and Durant 1.8, Westbrook had a VORP of 2.3, Durant had 0.7. Westbrook not only produces at a higher level despite slightly lower efficiency, but he is better at make the other players on the team thrive than Durant is. Thats also evident in the regular season numbers Durant is the cherry, but Westbrook is more important in terms of what he brings out of guys 3-7, from a production stand point. This was Durants first year with his adjusted style game, I'm not surprised to see him play beneath the levels of peak Westbrook in that context.


If Westbrook did what he did in the playoffs, and Durant did in the playoffs, but extrapolated over the entire regular season too then I could buy it. By all advanced metrics they were practical equals in the regular season. Westbrook stole the show in the post season, good enough for me all things being equal before that.

FlashBolt
06-28-2016, 10:39 PM
Neither Westbrook or Durant played well in the playoffs. I'd still rather build a team around Durant than Westbrook.

Bruno
06-28-2016, 10:42 PM
KD did play very well defensively which was great to see from him but overall I agree it wasn't his normal standard. I think there is a decent argument Westy has been better over their last two playoff runs and is the main creator for the team as a whole. They were pretty close in the regular season this year too. I agree by even next year it could be back to KD again though (he was better in the RS 14, just playoffs had the drop off).

right.

generally speaking, they're so close- if we have to give an edge to one of the two very different but equally impactful players, I'd personally go with the guy who just had the best post-season, all else being equal.

Bruno
06-28-2016, 10:47 PM
Neither Westbrook or Durant played well in the playoffs. I'd still rather build a team around Durant than Westbrook.
Westbrook was:

4th in PER
3rd in offensive
3rd in defensive win shares
4th in total WS
2nd in BPM
1st in OBPM
2nd in VORP

Even his usually mediocre TS% wasn't that much lower than his career average, by a single %. I watch every OKC game and thought that Westbrook played quite well spare a few poor shooting nights in particular. but even then he doesn't go full Curry and evaporate from the game, he contributes statistically across the board.

thenaj17
06-29-2016, 10:39 AM
It's shocking that Curry is already in ahead of Westbrook & Durant but those discussing Chris Paul ahead of Westbrook need to stop living in 2014.

Heediot
06-29-2016, 10:54 AM
OKC without KD = 45 win Team
OKC without Westbrook = 50 win Team

Chronz
06-29-2016, 03:12 PM
It's shocking that Curry is already in ahead of Westbrook & Durant but those discussing Chris Paul ahead of Westbrook need to stop living in 2014.

Actually its the other way around for me. I thought RWB surpassed CP3 after their series against each other. I changed my mind when I saw how CP3 carried the Clips without Blake and I feel his 2-way game is superior overall. I think CP3 makes the Thunder better and I think RWB would make the Clips worse. In terms of impact, gimme CP3.

Tony_Starks
06-29-2016, 03:40 PM
Coin flip between Russ and KD. If I'm forced to choose one I think I'd slightly lean toward Westbrook.

He's the mentally toughest of the two, even though neither of them has figured out when to get the other guys off and when to take over yet....

FraziersKnicks
06-29-2016, 04:47 PM
Actually its the other way around for me. I thought RWB surpassed CP3 after their series against each other. I changed my mind when I saw how CP3 carried the Clips without Blake and I feel his 2-way game is superior overall. I think CP3 makes the Thunder better and I think RWB would make the Clips worse. In terms of impact, gimme CP3.

I'm with Chronz here.

When KD is out the Thunder are a .500 team led by Westbrook. CP3 has no holes in his game as well. I want my PG to be composed and lead his team. Westbrook is too much of a loose cannon.. I think people get easily blown away by his high volume numbers but his efficiency puts me off him a bit.

I would finish my top 10 like this:

KD
Kawhi
CP3
Davis
Westbrook
PG13
Cousins
Harden

Chronz
06-29-2016, 09:19 PM
Westbrook was:

4th in PER
3rd in offensive
3rd in defensive win shares
4th in total WS
2nd in BPM
1st in OBPM
2nd in VORP

Even his usually mediocre TS% wasn't that much lower than his career average, by a single %. I watch every OKC game and thought that Westbrook played quite well spare a few poor shooting nights in particular. but even then he doesn't go full Curry and evaporate from the game, he contributes statistically across the board.

His DWS are a farce, hes the one player who can put so much on the table but also take so much away. Its hard to disregard his mediocre TS% when his wild forays to the rim leave his team vulnerable in transition. Its not as costly as when someone like Kyrie stare at his misses while his man runs the other way simply because hes at least attacking the paint but it comes with the good.

Curry had a great series vs OKC and its entirely due to RWB and his inattentiveness defensively. When the Thunder were set defensively, they suffocated the leagues most dangerous play, the Curry-Green High Screen simply by having Roberson on Curry and KD on Green. They laid out the blue print for Cleveland to replicate, the only time they weren't matched up properly were when RWB refused to run back in transition or was simply not in position to run back. Which is fine but you better be damn more productive to offset KD's presence off the ball on both ends.


When looking at their RS, its important to note that its not a true representation of KD's baseline talent level. He started off kind of slow (and so too did the Thunder, as history has shown KD does a better job of carrying the cast than RWB), if you look at his numbers since the start of the new year (which I think is a fair time table to get re acclimated) KD's TS% and overall numbers shoot up. In those 46 games hes at 29.1PPG 8.6Reb and 5.2 Ast. Which may not be much of a difference from his overall line but he was getting better as the season went on. I expect him to have an MVP season next year as he reasserts his position on the team.

I understand the importance of the playoffs but if we're going to micro analyze to that degree then cant we just disregard the first round entirely. The Mavs were one of the worst teams in the playoffs and thats where KD and RWB see the most separation statistically.

VS the Spurs and Dubs, their lines are far more comparable;

KD is at 29.3 - 7.4 - 3.4 with 109ORTG
RWB is at 26 - 6.8 - 10.9 with a 107 ORTG

RWB still has the superior PER with KD having superior efficiency but tbh, I think some of KD's struggles have to do with RWB not involving him properly. Whats the tie breaker for me is their defensive impact.


RWB has good defensive stats individually, but the tracking sites only measure half court play, they dont attribute transition balance to any individual player but suffice it to say, the Thunder gave up the highest eFG% of any team to make it past R1 in transition defense (5th highest overall eFG% and 5th highest PPP). And Im telling you it was mostly due to RWB.

Its obvious watching him how it happens, Coach Nick has a good video on the matter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbM48NeCyqc

That one was against the Warriors but heres another article breaking down his lapses vs the Spurs: http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2016/5/7/11614470/russell-westbrook-defense-playoffs-game-three

His slightly superior production doesn't offset his lack of 2-way efficiency imo and I think its been proven who can lead the team better at full speed and I honestly believe KD is back to his MVP form, he just needs a whole season to prove it.

Chronz
06-29-2016, 09:40 PM
And a fully healthy CP3 is still the 2nd best PG and capable of pushing Curry as the best all around PG when hes at his best, its just that hes basically at the Bron stage of his career where he refuses to go full bore unless he absolutely has to in the RS, only he lacks Brons durability.

This year we were starting to see a more aggressive CP3, I know its abit unfair but in terms of getting insight to a players true talent/productive worth, I like to ignore the first month or so of the season. In terms of who had the better year, the entire picture is obviously what matters but just focusing on their performance from Jan to the playoffs, CP3 was a different beast. With Blake gone he didn't have the luxury of rest and its part of the reason why he had the 3rd highest PER (Behind only Bron and Curry) after the All-Star break.

Shaq used to have a saying about how he would rev up the diesel during 2nd half stretches, thats the home stretch when players are jockying to set themselves up for the playoff stretch and sure enough, thats usually when Shaq's productive value would explode.


RWB is basically the beast that can run all year, whether its November or April, hes ready to go full bore, the thing is, he made most of his statistical advantages against CP3 early in the year. Starting from January, CP3 sports the higher PER in all but 1 month of play. That might be biased but even when the playoffs started CP3 was dominating his matchup vs Lillard and the Blazers to an absurd degree. CP3 was also more impressive in his series win vs the Spurs and his defense vs Curry when they last faced each other in the playoffs. That may have been years ago but its not completely irrelevant. Im willing to say its a toss up between these 2 but I wont buy that its an open and shut case.

The Clips offense goes from elite to **** without CP3 and that has pretty much been the case since he joined the Clips. It really doesn´t matter whos been available or how quality of a backup PG we´ve had over the years, CP3 has surgically destroyed teams and found us quality looks. Very few players carry his load.

ewing
06-29-2016, 10:16 PM
Kl

KnicksorBust
07-01-2016, 01:16 PM
I found MHC to be incredibly irritating sometimes but at least his threads made the list feel more valid.

I'm going by Durant. I'll always think Durant and Westbrook is an imperfect pairing and will always favor Durant. They should have traded Westbrook a long time ago.

tredigs
07-01-2016, 01:55 PM
I found MHC to be incredibly irritating sometimes but at least his threads made the list feel more valid.

I'm going by Durant. I'll always think Durant and Westbrook is an imperfect pairing and will always favor Durant. They should have traded Westbrook a long time ago.

Agreed. "OK who's better GO" is not exactly the best thread setup for debate. Hence only ~30 votes and 2 pages of argument already for spots 2 and 3. By #7 it will be 12 votes and 7 replies. Just dumb and nowhere near a close enough sample size to actually be indicative of what the NBA forum as a whole actually thinks.

HandsOnTheWheel
07-02-2016, 12:45 AM
Well the guy who usually does it can do it then. Maybe there will be a differing result for the 1st 3 in a recount as the offseason progresses.

FlashBolt
07-02-2016, 12:50 AM
What do you guys want the OP to do? At least he's trying to get some activity going on here. Do we really need someone to detail what should be discussed?

HandsOnTheWheel
07-02-2016, 01:52 AM
^Agreed but I'm not gonna argue senselessly over petty things. If someone else does it better then so be it. I thought it would be a good time to do it while the traffic on the site is at a peak and not during the dead dog days of the offseason but oh well.

FraziersKnicks
07-02-2016, 08:23 AM
I think the threads need to be a bit quicker tbh. A ranking every 48 hours would be good. That way it would take two months to do all 30 players.

Shammyguy3
07-02-2016, 01:29 PM
i'll take over making these threads from now on, here's #4 http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?911696-PSD-s-Annual-Top-30-Players-in-the-NBA-4

Bruno
07-03-2016, 06:51 PM
His DWS are a farce, hes the one player who can put so much on the table but also take so much away. Its hard to disregard his mediocre TS% when his wild forays to the rim leave his team vulnerable in transition. Its not as costly as when someone like Kyrie stare at his misses while his man runs the other way simply because hes at least attacking the paint but it comes with the good.
all true. but it is interesting how the gap is so drastic, even in a stat like DWS. sort of gives me the impression that the overall defense suffers when KD has to body an elite talent, as opposed to allowing him to roam. he didn't get much opportunity to roam because of match ups and maybe thats a revelation that Durant is an even better team defender than he is an individual defender.


Curry had a great series vs OKC and its entirely due to RWB and his inattentiveness defensively. When the Thunder were set defensively, they suffocated the leagues most dangerous play, the Curry-Green High Screen simply by having Roberson on Curry and KD on Green. They laid out the blue print for Cleveland to replicate, the only time they weren't matched up properly were when RWB refused to run back in transition or was simply not in position to run back. Which is fine but you better be damn more productive to offset KD's presence off the ball on both ends.true. he gets a pass in the moment because its steph curry but when Cleveland stops him like they did it exposes WBs effort.



When looking at their RS, its important to note that its not a true representation of KD's baseline talent level. He started off kind of slow (and so too did the Thunder, as history has shown KD does a better job of carrying the cast than RWB), if you look at his numbers since the start of the new year (which I think is a fair time table to get re acclimated) KD's TS% and overall numbers shoot up. In those 46 games hes at 29.1PPG 8.6Reb and 5.2 Ast. Which may not be much of a difference from his overall line but he was getting better as the season went on. I expect him to have an MVP season next year as he reasserts his position on the team.
right. if he resigns and they take what they discovered against SA into the entirety of the 82 game season, OKC could be a top seed as well. I've always thought that Durant was better than Westbrook. your argument is strong and WB is a defensive liability. I just felt inclined to give him the nod for this season over KD because of the roll over effect from last year. WB did WB things alone, the team got use to it and it was kind of on Durant to adjust to what everyone did around Westbrook the year earlier, especially while working himself back into the groove. With Westbrook peaking, I just thought that if there was ever a chance to argue him over KD it would be right now. despite the near equal regular season, which I guess is also a nod to Durants greatness in the sense that he could adjust to the new dynamic and still be so impactful- especially after the new year like you said.


I understand the importance of the playoffs but if we're going to micro analyze to that degree then cant we just disregard the first round entirely. The Mavs were one of the worst teams in the playoffs and thats where KD and RWB see the most separation statistically.

VS the Spurs and Dubs, their lines are far more comparable;

KD is at 29.3 - 7.4 - 3.4 with 109ORTG
RWB is at 26 - 6.8 - 10.9 with a 107 ORTG

RWB still has the superior PER with KD having superior efficiency but tbh, I think some of KD's struggles have to do with RWB not involving him properly. Whats the tie breaker for me is their defensive impact.
You're right. because of Westbrooks inability to shoot from distance KD struggled to involve him properly when he's holding the reigns like he always has. he's somewhat difficult to maximize next to a Durant level talent because of his specific skill set. that matters.


RWB has good defensive stats individually, but the tracking sites only measure half court play, they dont attribute transition balance to any individual player but suffice it to say, the Thunder gave up the highest eFG% of any team to make it past R1 in transition defense (5th highest overall eFG% and 5th highest PPP). And Im telling you it was mostly due to RWB.
I didn't know that.


Its obvious watching him how it happens, Coach Nick has a good video on the matter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbM48NeCyqc

That one was against the Warriors but heres another article breaking down his lapses vs the Spurs: http://www.welcometoloudcity.com/2016/5/7/11614470/russell-westbrook-defense-playoffs-game-three

His slightly superior production doesn't offset his lack of 2-way efficiency imo and I think its been proven who can lead the team better at full speed and I honestly believe KD is back to his MVP form, he just needs a whole season to prove it.

I think Westbrook should allow that to happen, I guess I'm just overly impressed by the teams ability to be within two minutes of the finals doing it Westbrooks way. It's flawed it has problems, it gets exposed, but it's also spectacular. you're basically arguing- hey Westbrook, lower the intensity of offense by 10%, let Durant go back into his old role and shift that 10% to your defensive focus. i can't argue with that.

quality post. thanks Chronz.

shyhj
07-03-2016, 11:31 PM
If Westbrook did what he did in the playoffs, and Durant did in the playoffs, but extrapolated over the entire regular season too then I could buy it.http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/27.gifhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif

Saddletramp
07-04-2016, 08:14 PM
Can I change my vote now that I see that Durant has no heart and is a hypocrite?