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naps
06-20-2016, 02:35 PM
Seeing how much people are valuing this ring, specially haters always said he needed to win in Cleveland to get proper validation (lol), I must assume he shoke up the all time rankings quite a bit last night.


Mods stop merging LeBron threads. We have seen pointless LeBron threads float around the forum all year long, yall didnt do anything about those. The man deserves to have his threads now.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 02:38 PM
I second that merging LeBron threads really throw away the importance of what is to be discussed.

As for James ranking, I'd be comfortable having him anywhere from 3-6 at this point. Probably #3 for me right now. He'll be #2 by career ends, that's a fact.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2016, 02:51 PM
He for sure slides up to my next tier. I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Magic
Dream/Kobe/Bird/Russell


By career end, I would imagine he is in my 2nd tier

Jets012
06-20-2016, 03:06 PM
#3 or #4. I think he's interchangeable with Wilt at this point. Jordan still the clear cut #1 and I don't imagine LeBron will pass him. Just too hard to do. Kareem is my #2. LeBron has a shot at that, but will also take a lot of work. Then I have Wilt/LeBron following. Probably right behind them is Duncan/Shaq/Magic in that order.

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt/LeBron
Duncan

That's my top 5 right now. I think you can feel pretty confident about penciling LeBron in top 4. I think when LeBron's career is all said and done, he'll be debated between Kareem for the #2 spot.

DanG
06-20-2016, 03:06 PM
1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. LeBron
7. Magic
8. Kobe
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

I'd like to see his how game ages before putting him in the top 5. Most likely ends up Top 4. Fenomenal all-around player.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2016, 03:07 PM
1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. LeBron
7. Magic
8. Kobe
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

I'd like to see his how game ages before putting him in the top 5. Most likely ends up Top 4. Fenomenal all-around player.

outside my unexplainable man-love for Dream, we have the exact same top 10 (I have Dream up 2 spots)

lavell12
06-20-2016, 03:14 PM
1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Russell
4 Magic
5 LeBron
6 Kareem
7 Duncan
8 Bird
9 Kobe
10 Shaq

Wes Mantooth
06-20-2016, 03:17 PM
So if Irving misses that 3, or the Warriors were healthy and win Lebron is not as good historically?

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 03:20 PM
Mj
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Magic
Bird
Hakeem

L8kers4life
06-20-2016, 03:22 PM
1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. LeBron
7. Magic
8. Kobe
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

I'd like to see his how game ages before putting him in the top 5. Most likely ends up Top 4. Fenomenal all-around player.

This is my exact list but I have LeBron at 4 and Shaq at 6.

LA4life24/8
06-20-2016, 03:24 PM
Well a lot of people on here said if he lost it wouldn't hurt his legacy, so I'm gonna use that and say this win doesn't help his legacy. He's where he's at on the all time list. Probably top 5 2-5 being completely interchangeable. No one will likely ever dethrone MJ, so you change magic wilt Kareem lebron Russell all of the above in and out. Maybe if LeBron happens to win a few more he absolutely solidifies #2, but with this ship this year? I don't think he moves up, and I really don't think with a loss he would have moved down.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2016, 03:25 PM
So if Irving misses that 3, or the Warriors were healthy and win Lebron is not as good historically?

then every championship ever is tainted. Every team needs health, luck, and huge plays to win a championship.

It matters more how you play than winning and losing, but winning will give you that extra credit for sure, especially if you are playing at the level LeBron did in this series. His last 3 games, all elimination games, he was:

36.3 ppg
11.7 rpg
9.7 apg
3 spg
3 bpg

over 50% shooting. There isn't anyone in the game that can make that block in game 7

The dude was a man amongst boys to close the series. That is the biggest reason he has moved up

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 03:25 PM
So if Irving misses that 3, or the Warriors were healthy and win Lebron is not as good historically?

I'm not a Lebron fan at all, and actually wanted the Warriors to win, but what you said can be used for almost every title

If Horry didn't hit that 3 against the Kings, if Perkins would've played in game 7, if Paxton didn't hit that 3,if the cavs were healthy last year, if Nick Anderson hit 1 or those free throws, etc..

LA4life24/8
06-20-2016, 03:26 PM
And for people who have Duncan higher than kobe... how? What's the reasoning? They have the same # of rings but Duncan was really only the man for 1 of em kobe was the man for 2. Kobe had at least one mvp stolen from him by nash.

But I digress that's not what this thread is I guess

IKnowHoops
06-20-2016, 03:27 PM
1.Bron
2. Jordan
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. Magic
10. KG

Hawkeye15
06-20-2016, 03:27 PM
Well a lot of people on here said if he lost it wouldn't hurt his legacy, so I'm gonna use that and say this win doesn't help his legacy. He's where he's at on the all time list. Probably top 5 2-5 being completely interchangeable. No one will likely ever dethrone MJ, so you change magic wilt Kareem lebron Russell all of the above in and out. Maybe if LeBron happens to win a few more he absolutely solidifies #2, but with this ship this year? I don't think he moves up, and I really don't think with a loss he would have moved down.

This has been discussed though. Your ranking is done by achievements. Once you get a ranking, even if you go take a dump at center court and flick the fans off and never play again, you can't drop unless someone moves ahead of you with their achievements. You can move up with MORE achievements, which is what he just did.

Legacy is all about perception, ranking is a thought out, weighed, evidence supplied number. They are different things.

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 03:28 PM
Add Content

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 03:28 PM
I'd probably have him 3/4. It's hard for me to decide between him and wilt.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 03:30 PM
Well a lot of people on here said if he lost it wouldn't hurt his legacy, so I'm gonna use that and say this win doesn't help his legacy. He's where he's at on the all time list. Probably top 5 2-5 being completely interchangeable. No one will likely ever dethrone MJ, so you change magic wilt Kareem lebron Russell all of the above in and out. Maybe if LeBron happens to win a few more he absolutely solidifies #2, but with this ship this year? I don't think he moves up, and I really don't think with a loss he would have moved down.

Most impressive championship win ever in not only NBA but one of the greatest in team sports history. How can you not be moved up?

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 03:31 PM
The only way your ranking drops down if you're an athlete is if you were caught cheating while those said achievements were conquered. If not, it's just unfair. \

PurpleLynch
06-20-2016, 03:32 PM
I think all Lebron's critics(except for the ones who criticize him as a person, a thing I can personally understand)should be put to sleep after game 7. As a player in his role,you won't see anything close anywhere,even in Nba's history(Sorry Larry,I considered you the best small forward of all time,but after this entire playoff run he surpassed you in my mind).

So,where does he rank? Dunno,I use tiers usually,but anyway,I consider him the best small forward of all time,that's a title he deserves.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2016, 03:32 PM
1.Bron
2. Jordan
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. Magic
10. KG

Do you know how ironic it is for you to put out a list like that with that user name?

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2016, 03:36 PM
He for sure slides up to my next tier. I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Magic
Dream/Kobe/Bird/Russell


By career end, I would imagine he is in my 2nd tier

Solid list. I agree with this

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 03:44 PM
Do you know how ironic it is for you to put out a list like that with that user name?

That list is BAD. I like the guy but wow, how do you put this list down? KG over Kobe? WTF?

mightybosstone
06-20-2016, 03:53 PM
1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. Magic
9. Russell
10. Bird

Yanks All Day
06-20-2016, 03:53 PM
One thing to note: We compare LeBron's "right now" to the greats' end of career rankings. He's 31. Barring injury, he's got a long way to go and can surely keep moving up.

It's a testament to LeBron's greatness that he realistically has 6-7 years left in the league and he's already up that high. At 31, he's in most people's top 5-7, and many top 3-5s. He's probably going to end up in the top 3 scoring all time and can realistically also end up in the top 5-7 range in the all time assists list. That's mind blowing. If he wins another ring or two, that's a no-doubt 2nd best of all time status, and I'd say the argument for G.O.A.T. would be completely justified.

That's a lot of ifs, but he's probably got 6-7 years to make it happen. It's truly not out of the question.

Gibby23
06-20-2016, 04:04 PM
At #2 pretty easy for me, I don't think he will ever pass Jordan, but he can distance himself from the others.

bucketss
06-20-2016, 04:13 PM
top 5 baby

theafrosamurai
06-20-2016, 04:18 PM
He's mos def top five from the ballers I've seen in my lifetime so far.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

5ass
06-20-2016, 04:27 PM
If he goes back to back next year and wins FMVP (and possibly MVP) do we start talking GOAT?

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 04:31 PM
If he goes back to back next year and wins FMVP (and possibly MVP) do we start talking GOAT?

If he enters five rings while dominating, I think he's GOAT. MVP is out of the equation for LeBron. He hasn't looked interested in the regular season for years now. Probably just knows he's too good to be concerned about regular season games.

ink
06-20-2016, 04:33 PM
He ranks where he did last week and the week before that, etc. He's one of the best ever and anyone who's denied that has had a losing argument.

Is he also one of the biggest jerks in NBA history? Yes. But that doesn't affect his ranking.

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 04:35 PM
At #2 pretty easy for me, I don't think he will ever pass Jordan, but he can distance himself from the others.

I agree with this. At this point the highest he can go for me is probably #2. It's going to be TOUGH for him to pass Jordan in my mind. Not impossible, but in that ball park.

Supreme LA
06-20-2016, 04:35 PM
1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Lebron
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Hakeem
9. Oscar
10. Duncan

5ass
06-20-2016, 04:36 PM
He ranks where he did last week and the week before that, etc. He's one of the best ever and anyone who's denied that has had a losing argument.

Is he also one of the biggest jerks in NBA history? Yes. But that doesn't affect his ranking.

That's not right. He put some criticisms to rest last night. The "choker" label doesn't work anymore.

And one of the biggest jerks in NBA history? Lol not even close. He's alright in comparison.

Supreme LA
06-20-2016, 04:40 PM
If he enters five rings while dominating, I think he's GOAT. MVP is out of the equation for LeBron. He hasn't looked interested in the regular season for years now. Probably just knows he's too good to be concerned about regular season games.

The only thing that could possibly have me consider Lebron GOAT and better than MJ is if he ran a streak of 4 straight titles at this point.

There's a lot to be said about repeating and defending the title. It's just so hard to do and would show his cement his dominance on this league the way that MJ had.

MJ seriously just had the perfect storybook career. You couldn't write something better than that.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 04:42 PM
Meh, biggest jerk... whatever, not going to work if someone clearly has an agenda on him. No other NBA superstar of LeBron's caliber hasn't been a jerk somewhat. To say he is one of the biggest is lacking of any evidence.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 04:44 PM
The only thing that could possibly have me consider Lebron GOAT and better than MJ is if he ran a streak of 4 straight titles at this point.

There's a lot to be said about repeating and defending the title. It's just so hard to do and would show his cement his dominance on this league the way that MJ had.

MJ seriously just had the perfect storybook career. You couldn't write something better than that.

Maybe. Four might be reaching.. he will have 7 rings after that so it's comfortably better than MJ's ring counts. I'm not sure about the perfect storybook career but LeBron just had a perfect storybook year for the Cavs. It's tough man, MJ is truly untouchable but we should revisit this when LeBron actually gets another ring. Then we can start the MJ vs LeBron discussion. As of now, he's just cemented his top five placement.

ink
06-20-2016, 04:47 PM
That's not right. He put some criticisms to rest last night. The "choker" label doesn't work anymore.

The "choker" label never meant anything anyway.

ink
06-20-2016, 04:50 PM
Meh, biggest jerk... whatever, not going to work if someone clearly has an agenda on him. No other NBA superstar of LeBron's caliber hasn't been a jerk somewhat. To say he is one of the biggest is lacking of any evidence.

The evidence is in his actions. It was just a side comment not meant to throw off the thread. And yes, there have been a lot of jerks in NBA history. There's no anger attached to that, just a statement about how unpopular some of his actions have been. They've been talked about to death online so I'm not pursuing it. He's a great great player and that has never really changed.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 04:55 PM
The evidence is in his actions. It was just a side comment not meant to throw off the thread. And yes, there have been a lot of jerks in NBA history. There's no anger attached to that, just a statement about how unpopular some of his actions have been. They've been talked about to death online so I'm not pursuing it. He's a great great player and that has never really changed.

Well, who are we comparing him to? Kawhi Leonard? If so, the Pope would look like a jerk. Compared to all-time great players such as himself, MJ was a jerk, Kobe was a jerk, Shaq was a jerk, KG total jerk. He's just exposed all the time with whatever he says from these media hounds and social media. He has had some questionable actions that seem jerkish such as trying to bait Curry and he does have an ego issue but he came into the spotlight at 15 and has done very well in handling that. It's not fair to compare him to your typical player because LeBron isn't your typical player. Most scrutinized athlete in sports. No one knows what that's like.

ink
06-20-2016, 04:58 PM
Well, who are we comparing him to? Kawhi Leonard? If so, the Pope would look like a jerk. Compared to all-time great players such as himself, MJ was a jerk, Kobe was a jerk, Shaq was a jerk, KG total jerk. He's just exposed all the time with whatever he says from these media hounds and social media. He has had some questionable actions that seem jerkish such as trying to bait Curry and he does have an ego issue but he came into the spotlight at 15 and has done very well in handling that. It's not fair to compare him to your typical player because LeBron isn't your typical player. Most scrutinized athlete in sports. No one knows what that's like.

He's absolutely over scrutinized, I agree with that. I was thinking about free agency 2010 but don't want to open that discussion.

Let's stick with the ranking topic.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-20-2016, 05:02 PM
Miami fan here, so not a lebron fan per sae. However, top 4 all time easily. And can easily move up when its all said and done.

He is a beast man. Gotta give props.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Dade County
06-20-2016, 05:33 PM
He was top 7 for me, now he is top 5.

He could of been top 4 by now, but 2011 happen.

Sportsguy9695
06-20-2016, 05:49 PM
im a huge James fan. but i will admit he is not better then Jordan. he is easily top five after getting this ring. this ring helped him go up the list quite a bit. went from top 10 to easily top 5

LOb0
06-20-2016, 05:55 PM
He was top 7 for me, now he is top 5.

He could of been top 4 by now, but 2011 happen.

2010 too. I still have a problem with 2014. Made no attempts to stop the bleeding when SA was going on runs. Just kept passing the ball.

He's top 3 now and he'll be number 2 when its all said and done.

Norm
06-20-2016, 05:55 PM
When did sports become about how nice a guy was.

Supreme LA
06-20-2016, 05:56 PM
It's hard to argue Lebron not being top 5 at this point.

But can we all come together finally once and for all and admit to ourselves how overrated Tim Duncan is?!?!

Duncan is not better than Lebron, Kobe, or Shaq.

Duncan was a product of Pop's system, nothing really that spectacular at all. Manu, Kawaii, & Tony Parker deserve just as much credit.

LOb0
06-20-2016, 05:57 PM
It's hard to argue Lebron not being top 5 at this point.

But we call come together finally once and for all and admit to ourselves how overrated Tim Duncan is?!?!

Duncan is not better than Lebron, Kobe, or Shaq.


Most have Duncan ahead of Kobe. Its very close but I would also take Duncan.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 05:57 PM
It's hard to argue Lebron not being top 5 at this point.

But we call come together finally once and for all and admit to ourselves how overrated Tim Duncan is?!?!

Duncan is not better than Lebron, Kobe, or Shaq.

I have Duncan and Kobe interchangeable and on the same tier.

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3-7) LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan.

Tough to say but I do find it interesting that when Duncan wins, people want to boost him yet when he loses, no one says a thing about him not doing enough. Just me, though.

Supreme LA
06-20-2016, 05:59 PM
Most have Duncan ahead of Kobe. Its very close but I would also take Duncan.

Most people are wrong then. The guy hasn't led his team to anything. He's a product of Pop's system and has never repeated as a champ himself.

Supreme LA
06-20-2016, 06:02 PM
I have Duncan and Kobe interchangeable and on the same tier.

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3-7) LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan.

Tough to say but I do find it interesting that when Duncan wins, people want to boost him yet when he loses, no one says a thing about him not doing enough. Just me, though.

I thought the same thing.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-20-2016, 06:03 PM
He's cemented himself as a top 5 player of all-time.

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 06:13 PM
Most have Duncan ahead of Kobe. Its very close but I would also take Duncan.

Most people are wrong then. The guy hasn't led his team to anything. He's a product of Pop's system and has never repeated as a champ himself.

Why do you think he's a product of Pops system?

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 06:19 PM
Why do you think he's a product of Pops system?

It's vice-versa as well but I think playing for Pop is what made Duncan successful. Think about it: This season, Duncan was relatively finished but Spurs just put up their best regular season. So who's to attribute that success to? Clearly the system since TD was barely playing and was hardly relevant in some cases. The luxury of just having a team built for him was just nothing short of a masterpiece by Pop. The way he benches a player and manages minutes to finding the most random pieces and making it work. That's not Tim's doing.

Heediot
06-20-2016, 06:21 PM
3rd behind Kareem.

Heediot
06-20-2016, 06:23 PM
It's vice-versa as well but I think playing for Pop is what made Duncan successful. Think about it: This season, Duncan was relatively finished but Spurs just put up their best regular season. So who's to attribute that success to? Clearly the system since TD was barely playing and was hardly relevant in some cases. The luxury of just having a team built for him was just nothing short of a masterpiece by Pop. The way he benches a player and manages minutes to finding the most random pieces and making it work. That's not Tim's doing.

In his prime, Duncan was the main reason for the team success. In his later years and when the rules got more and more perimeter oriented, I give credit more to Pops.

Gibby23
06-20-2016, 06:25 PM
It's vice-versa as well but I think playing for Pop is what made Duncan successful. Think about it: This season, Duncan was relatively finished but Spurs just put up their best regular season. So who's to attribute that success to? Clearly the system since TD was barely playing and was hardly relevant in some cases. The luxury of just having a team built for him was just nothing short of a masterpiece by Pop. The way he benches a player and manages minutes to finding the most random pieces and making it work. That's not Tim's doing.

When people talk about Duncans rank, it has nothing to do with this season and the team was not built for or around Duncan this season. Duncan is an all time great, look at his numbers for his 1st 13 to 15 years, he would have done that anywhere. He had a great skill set.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 06:36 PM
When people talk about Duncans rank, it has nothing to do with this season and the team was not built for or around Duncan this season. Duncan is an all time great, look at his numbers for his 1st 13 to 15 years, he would have done that anywhere. He had a great skill set.

Not saying he didn't but when we start comparing legends, we have to fault him as well. He's an All-Time great, nothing to be said about a top five player.

kdspurman
06-20-2016, 06:46 PM
In his prime, Duncan was the main reason for the team success. In his later years and when the rules got more and more perimeter oriented, I give credit more to Pops.

Pretty much

kdspurman
06-20-2016, 06:49 PM
Most people are wrong then. The guy hasn't led his team to anything. He's a product of Pop's system and has never repeated as a champ himself.

Product of Pop's system?

I recommend you go watch him in Wake Forrest. Then I recommend you watch him from his rookie year till about mid-late 2000s.

The Spurs ran a play called 4 down often. That play meant get the ball to Duncan in the post and let him go to work. I don't think Pop controlled him with a remote control or anything. Tim was the system probably the first half of his career.

And the whole repeating thing, sure. I'd bet Hakeem would trade Tim's championships for his if it meant he didn't repeat but won 5 for his career and had the success Tim has had

Redrum187
06-20-2016, 06:50 PM
He ranks where he did last week and the week before that, etc. He's one of the best ever and anyone who's denied that has had a losing argument.

Is he also one of the biggest jerks in NBA history? Yes. But that doesn't affect his ranking.

He's absolutely over scrutinized, I agree with that. I was thinking about free agency 2010 but don't want to open that discussion.

Let's stick with the ranking topic.

Then why the hell did you even bring it up in the first place if it has no relevance to his ranking and if you supposedly want to stick to the ranking topic?:confused:

Redrum187
06-20-2016, 06:53 PM
It's hard to argue Lebron not being top 5 at this point.

But can we all come together finally once and for all and admit to ourselves how overrated Tim Duncan is?!?!

Duncan is not better than Lebron, Kobe, or Shaq.

Duncan was a product of Pop's system, nothing really that spectacular at all. Manu, Kawaii, & Tony Parker deserve just as much credit.

Duncan is easily better than Kobe and it's not even close. Shaq is clearly better than Duncan. I doubt you'd find more than 5 people on this site that think otherwise. Duncan is my 2nd favorite player of all time and I can objectively concede Shaq is superior.

LeBron definitely has a case over Duncan, but I'm not sure I'd do that just yet. They are really close either way. I do expect LeBron to finish his career with a better ranking than Duncan though.

FraziersKnicks
06-20-2016, 06:56 PM
This ring puts him top 5 for sure.

I like the tier system:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt/Shaq/LeBron
Duncan/Hakeem
Magic/Kobe/Bird

My tier's are more strict, but depending how I feel most of those guys can flip within their tiers.

As for a straight top 10.

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. Magic
9. Kobe
10. Bird

I don't think LeBron needs another ring to surpass Wilt for #3 by the end of his career. If he enjoys a nice slow decline and plays at this level (24-25 PPG, 6-7 RPG, 6-7 APG) until he's 34/35 and then another 2/3 years of 20-22 PPG, 5-6 RPG, 5-6 APG he will have the counting stats to rank top 3 all-time. This ring is that huge for him. It's given him that defining moment. Something that no player has ever accomplished before and one of the greatest finals performances ever (3-1 down, beating a 73 win team as the underdog, 41/16/7 - 41/8/11 - 26/11/11 in three straight elimination games, bringing a title to a city that's never won it all, the greatest defensive highlight ever)

If he wins another ring and finals MVP he overtakes KAJ for #2 all-time.

He's likely gonna finish his career with a resume that (at least) includes:

3 championships
3 Finals MVP's
4 MVP's
17+ All-Star
12+ 1st team All-NBA
5 1st team All-Defense

35k+ points (3rd all-time)
9K+ rebounds
9K+ assists (top 10 all-time)
250+ win shares (2nd all-time)
140+ VORP (1st by a long way, MJ is 2nd with 104)

#1 in playoff points
#3 in playoff assists
#1 in playoff steals
#4/5/6 in playoff rebounds
#1 in playoff win shares (already there)
#1 in playoff VORP (already there as well)

This is all assuming he doesn't win another championship... That resume is top 3 all-time easily, and he should get there no problem.

So to summarise, he's currently #5 all-time, and will finish no lower than #3 by the end of his career with a good shot of #2 with one more ring.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 07:00 PM
This ring puts him top 5 for sure.

I like the tier system:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt/Shaq/LeBron
Duncan/Hakeem
Magic/Kobe/Bird

My tier's are more strict, but depending how I feel most of those guys can flip within their tiers.

As for a straight top 10.

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. Magic
9. Kobe
10. Bird

I don't think LeBron needs another ring to surpass Wilt for #3 by the end of his career. If he enjoys a nice slow decline and plays at this level (24-25 PPG, 6-7 RPG, 6-7 APG) until he's 34/35 and then another 2/3 years of 20-22 PPG, 5-6 RPG, 5-6 APG he will have the counting stats to rank top 3 all-time. This ring is that huge for him. It's given him that defining moment. Something that no player has ever accomplished before and one of the greatest finals performances ever (3-1 down, beating a 73 win team as the underdog, 41/16/7 - 41/8/11 - 26/11/11 in three straight elimination games, bringing a title to a city that's never won it all, the greatest defensive highlight ever)

If he wins another ring and finals MVP he overtakes KAJ for #2 all-time.

He's likely gonna finish his career with a resume that (at least) includes:

3 championships
3 Finals MVP's
4 MVP's
17+ All-Star
12+ 1st team All-NBA
5 1st team All-Defense

35k+ points (3rd all-time)
9K+ rebounds
9K+ assists (top 10 all-time)
250+ win shares (2nd all-time)
140+ VORP (1st by a long way, MJ is 2nd with 104)

#1 in playoff points
#3 in playoff assists
#1 in playoff steals
#4/5/6 in playoff rebounds
#1 in playoff win shares (already there)
#1 in playoff VORP (already there as well)

This is all assuming he doesn't win another championship... That resume is top 3 all-time easily, and he should get there no problem.

So to summarise, he's currently #5 all-time, and will finish no lower than #3 by the end of his career with a good shot of #2 with one more ring.

He's not going to retire being that close to the all-time points. That's something he will probably aim for. Kobe's final game was the greatest retirement game I've ever seen. LeBron's final game and breaking KAJ's point total would surpass that.

ManningToTyree
06-20-2016, 07:10 PM
Mj
Kareem/magic/wilt
Duncan/Kobe/shaq/Lebron
Hakeem/Bird/Oscar

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 07:30 PM
Lol and I thought I loved Lebron... Some of you putting him above Jordan... Just wow.... I have him top 3-5 right now.... I am in the minority that think Magic is number 2 behind Jordan..... I am a huge magic guy.... I think Lebron could become 2nd best ever but for him to be the Goat which I think is unlikely he would need 5 rings and another finals mvp in my opinion for him to be there with Jordan... Its a shame really... If he didnt Choke against the mavs we could be having the GOAT discussion but that choke job was one of the worst choke jobs in history until last nights curry performance.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 07:34 PM
lol are people really calling Timmy D a product of Pops system? Who is to say he isnt the reason why said system worked and became insanely great? Duncan never had the talent around him a Kobe had in my opinion... I love Parker and G but they arent Shaq/Gasol/Horry etc etc and Oh yea Phil Jackson.. Timmy D is probably in my 4-6 range.... In fact without thinking about it right now my list would go

MJ
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan/Lebron/Wilt-Mix and match these any way you want- and I wont argue


Then we get to the bird/russ/kobe/dream area

mngopher35
06-20-2016, 07:36 PM
I really like FrazierKnicks list of

MJ
KAJ
Wilt/Shaq/LeBron
Duncan/Hakeem
Magic/Kobe/Bird

The 3rd line is players with high peaks who dominated physically. Following the skilled big men who had some very impressive titles with less than average championship help and good longevity. Then you get the non centers/physical beasts in the final group (taking a tip off doesn't count). I personally might have Magic and even Duncan up a tier honestly but I do like each tier seeming to "fit" and I tend to favor big men a little in my rankings too (due to defense generally). I have a hard time ranking Russell and do have him 11th but I would probably have to say he is at least in this group as well.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 07:43 PM
Lol looking at everyones lists I guess I really really love Magic lol

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2016, 07:52 PM
1b.

Phantom Dreamer
06-20-2016, 07:52 PM
He has an argument for being a Top 5 player. Thing is, you still hear the Jordan comparisons. They talk about Jordan's lack of success without Pippen and his first round exits early in his career. Well, prime LeBron isn't getting past Bird's Celtics with Gene Banks and Dave Corzine either.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 07:54 PM
He has an argument for being a Top 5 player. Thing is, you still hear the Jordan comparisons. They talk about Jordan's lack of success without Pippen and his first round exits early in his career. Well, prime LeBron isn't getting past Bird's Celtics with Gene Banks and Dave Corzine either.

Those arguments against Jordan are very true though on top of him having some bad elimination games that they still won... On top of that lebron could win in his prime against anyone.

naps
06-20-2016, 08:31 PM
LeBron is still behind Jordan and Kareem. I dont fathom him passing MJ but as long as he finishes his career staying healthy, he takes Kareem's spot easily like I have been saying all along.

ManRam
06-20-2016, 08:50 PM
I'm actually struggling with this. This win is meaningful, and things have changed. I also thing his game is the type that will live up to the tests of time and that his legacy will grow the further we're removed from the present, the hot takes and the silly narratives. Time will do him well IMO. As will more success.

He's right around Duncan, and probably will pass him eventually (if he hasn't already). He's right around Shaq, and longevity will have him pass Shaq eventually (if he hasn't already). I don't see the argument for Magic or Bird (my all-time favorite player before LeBron) anymore. So that leaves Kareem and Wilt. And obviously the GOAT.

He's 4-7 right now...I wouldn't find to aggressively over an opinion in that range. Barring injuries or catastrophic playoff performances, top-4 is a given. Two is within grasp. To get Jordan probably requires a few more MVPs (doubtful) and at least two more rings (maybe?). Tall order.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 09:29 PM
He for sure slides up to my next tier. I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Magic
Dream/Kobe/Bird/Russell


By career end, I would imagine he is in my 2nd tier

I prefer the tier ranks that you have been doing.

Here is mine right now:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ/LeBron
Shaq/Duncan/Magic
Dream/Bird/Russell
Kobe, Admiral, and Dirk are somewhere between both tiers
Garnett/Malone/Barkley/Oscar/Moses/West/Paul/Stockton

I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

This put him in the second tier, when he was in the third

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 09:39 PM
Mj
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Magic
Bird
Hakeem

Are you more of a durability fan then?

I mean, Kobe being that high only makes sense if you just adore the durability and only waiting for LeBron to simply play more minutes

bklynny67
06-20-2016, 09:40 PM
He doesn't get ranked higher just cuz he got another ring by once again being bailed out by his teammate hitting a huge 3.

Not hating here it's just the truth. Jordan won all 6 finals he was in and would highly likely have 8 straight titles if he didn't leave. He had a couple times where a teammate hit a big shot late but how many clutch shots did he make himself at the end of finals games? Including multiple game winning, championship clinching shots at the end of games.

Lebron is 3 for 7 in the finals and I don't think he's made the game winning shot once to win a series. Jordan was doing that in his sleep.

Maybe he cracks the top 6, but that's where he was before this one game where he shot 38% and missed a bunch of late shots including a couple layups.

He's a missed 3 pointer from Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving from possibly being 1-7 in the finals. Where would you have him ranked in that scenario? Cuz that's where he should still be ranked. His teammates making those shots don't propel him into top 3 like some on here believe.

ink
06-20-2016, 09:45 PM
He ranks where he did last week and the week before that, etc. He's one of the best ever and anyone who's denied that has had a losing argument.

Is he also one of the biggest jerks in NBA history? Yes. But that doesn't affect his ranking.

He's absolutely over scrutinized, I agree with that. I was thinking about free agency 2010 but don't want to open that discussion.

Let's stick with the ranking topic.

Then why the hell did you even bring it up in the first place if it has no relevance to his ranking and if you supposedly want to stick to the ranking topic?:confused:

Side comment. No need to continue with it since it's not the topic. It's certainly worth a mention though since it does have a bearing on how he's perceived.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 09:58 PM
Jordan through age 31 vs LeBron through age 31:


Maybe people forget.

But here is how Jordan's career started.

His rookie year, 84-85, he won ROY, and they lost in the first round in 4 games (best of 5) with a 38-44 regular season record. He joined a team with a couple of good players on it (Wooldridge and Dailey).

LeBron's rookie year, he won ROY, and he joined the worst team in the league. They finished 35-47, didn't make the playoffs.

Jordan's second year, he broke his foot and he missed 64 games. But his team still made the playoffs and lost. With one of the worst records to ever make a playoff, because the East was relatively weak at this time.

LeBron's second season, the Cavs went 42-40 and didn't make the playoffs, but they at least had a winning record.

Jordan's third season they got knocked out in the first round, LeBron carried arguably the worst team to the Finals ever.


Jordan didn't win a ring until he was 27. And managed to get beat a lot in the playoffs up until that point.
LeBron won his first ring at 27 (second at 28 like Jordan).

At 29, Jordan got his third ring, LeBron got his at 31.

Jordan didn't win his 4th until he was 32.

Through their age 31 season. Why 31? Because that's how old LeBron is.


Jordan
26.5K minutes
32.2 PPG
6.3 TRB
5.9 APG
2.7 SPG
1.0 BPG
3.0 Turnovers
29.6 PER
.586 TS%
150.0 WS
4 Regular Seasons MVPs
3 Championship Rings
3 Finals MVPs

LeBron has
38.4K minutes
27.2 PPG
7.2 TRB
6.9 APG
1.7 SPG
0.8 BPG
3.4 Turnovers
27.7 PER
.581 TS%
192.5 WS
4 MVPs
3 Championships
3 Finals MVPs

And he's done this without having the benefit of college preparation.


Playoff numbers:
Jordan
5K Minutes
34.4 PPG
6.7 RPG
6.5 APG
2.3 SPG
1.0 BPG
3.4 Turnovers
29.2 PER
.579 TS%
26.3 WS
3 Rings, 10 playoff appearances


LeBron
8K Minutes
28.0 PPG
8.8 TRB
6.8 APG
1.8 SPG
0.9 BPG
3.5 Turnovers
27.7 PER
.567 TS%
41.6 WS
3 Rings in 11 playoff appearances


Jordan may be a tick ahead, but LeBron has played so many more minutes through this age, including the playoffs where LeBron has gone further more often than Jordan did.

Jordan was elite the next three seasons, and won 3 more rings and 3 more Finals MVP's
LeBron can age decently well and would absolutely need to belong in the 1A/1B conversation if he can sustain any decent health.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:01 PM
LeBron, at 31. Has the most playoff Win Shares all time, and is close to Jordan in PER.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:02 PM
He doesn't get ranked higher just cuz he got another ring by once again being bailed out by his teammate hitting a huge 3.

Not hating here it's just the truth. Jordan won all 6 finals he was in and would highly likely have 8 straight titles if he didn't leave. He had a couple times where a teammate hit a big shot late but how many clutch shots did he make himself at the end of finals games? Including multiple game winning, championship clinching shots at the end of games.

Lebron is 3 for 7 in the finals and I don't think he's made the game winning shot once to win a series. Jordan was doing that in his sleep.

Maybe he cracks the top 6, but that's where he was before this one game where he shot 38% and missed a bunch of late shots including a couple layups.

He's a missed 3 pointer from Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving from possibly being 1-7 in the finals. Where would you have him ranked in that scenario? Cuz that's where he should still be ranked. His teammates making those shots don't propel him into top 3 like some on here believe.

Another one that thinks scoring equates to greatness or hitting a 3 late is better than blocking a shot and keeping the game tied or having 3 historic games in a row to clinch a series on the road twice against one of the best teams ever all while having one of the best finals performances ever.... Yea bailed out by kyrie.... Not sure why I waste my time with the haters... You use the logic that Jordan could have 8 and yada yada yada but negate the team around him/the teams he faced/the help he had/and how he himself had bad games 6s but still won because of said team.... Jordan could have an off playoff night and the bulls win... Lebron if he is even good they lose... Lebron has to literally be great to historic for his team to win.. The bulls won how many games without jordan? This cavs team without lebron isnt even in the playoffs in the East.

Jordan is goat nomatter what but I love the hate.... All haters said he needs to be great and get another ring when they thought he had no shot for him to be greatness and now that he got it against one of the best teams ever in a way that nobody else could do with 3 straight historic performances all of a sudden rings no longer matter and you need to hit a big shot late? lol what a ****ing joke




Examples





In the 1996 closer against Seattle (game 6), Jordan won on Father’s Day, and capped off a comeback like no other finishing off a 72-10 season. But in that last game he didn’t put up impressive individual stats…well he did, but just not compared to himself. He was rather Kobeish in this one. Jordan had a career Finals low 22 points on 5 of 19 shooting. He did make 11 of 12 from the line and added seven boards but he did have five turnovers. His stats weren’t his best, but it was his most satisfying title win that night!

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:03 PM
The evidence is in his actions. It was just a side comment not meant to throw off the thread. And yes, there have been a lot of jerks in NBA history. There's no anger attached to that, just a statement about how unpopular some of his actions have been. They've been talked about to death online so I'm not pursuing it. He's a great great player and that has never really changed.

Watching last night, live, after the game....the first reporter that got LeBron was a woman. Every thing he said was 'me', and 'I' and all of this work etc, etc, etc, he never said 'we' or 'our' or anything.

It's just annoying as hell to listen to that.


But that's not a LeBron thing, that's an NBA thing. That is consistent around the league.

Bruno
06-20-2016, 10:04 PM
after today I don't think you can argue LeBron any lower than 7th or 8th. I think that if you took the time and wrote 4k words, you could argue him over anyone except MJ and Kareem as of today.

what he did in game five and six was special. I also respected how he took the shots at the end of the game 7. after those free throws? it messed up his FG% but thats what his team needed from him and I respect him for playing the ugly, but necessary game to close them out. LeBron took and made jumpers and it broke their defense. LeBron taking and hitting jumpers is a top 3 player ever. Early series/2011 finals LBJ isn't. he proved on the biggest stage against all odds that his best incarnation can shine against a superior opponent and thats all we can ask from LeBron or any other GOAT. exceed the expectations and odds. it's not good enough to win when you're supposed to win. plus, he did this as his physical prime is ending. amazing.

i still think OKC was better than the Warriors and that the suspensions/non-suspension muddied this years past season, but at the end of the day LeBron did everything LeBron needed to to do win in the circumstance that he could control. he came through for his teammates and he allowed Irving to play at a MVP level next to him, you have to give him and Lou and Kyrie a lot of credit. i mean he had the ball with 1:30 left with his legacy in his hands and he came through. what he did to the psychology of the Warriors also bumps him to the level of grand master in the mental game, he now joins the GOATs from that angle as well. that was some grown man ****. Mentally week? Percentage protector? Non-shooter? He took all these previously fair criticisms and stomped them out in the most defining moment of his career. congrats to him and to all you posters who have been enjoying his game for years.

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:05 PM
Jordan through age 31 vs LeBron through age 31:


Maybe people forget.

But here is how Jordan's career started.

His rookie year, 84-85, he won ROY, and they lost in the first round in 4 games (best of 5) with a 38-44 regular season record. He joined a team with a couple of good players on it (Wooldridge and Dailey).

LeBron's rookie year, he won ROY, and he joined the worst team in the league. They finished 35-47, didn't make the playoffs.

Jordan's second year, he broke his foot and he missed 64 games. But his team still made the playoffs and lost. With one of the worst records to ever make a playoff, because the East was relatively weak at this time.

LeBron's second season, the Cavs went 42-40 and didn't make the playoffs, but they at least had a winning record.

Jordan's third season they got knocked out in the first round, LeBron carried arguably the worst team to the Finals ever.


Jordan didn't win a ring until he was 27. And managed to get beat a lot in the playoffs up until that point.
LeBron won his first ring at 27 (second at 28 like Jordan).

At 29, Jordan got his third ring, LeBron got his at 31.

Jordan didn't win his 4th until he was 32.

Through their age 31 season. Why 31? Because that's how old LeBron is.


Jordan
26.5K minutes
32.2 PPG
6.3 TRB
5.9 APG
2.7 SPG
1.0 BPG
3.0 Turnovers
29.6 PER
.586 TS%
150.0 WS
4 Regular Seasons MVPs
3 Championship Rings
3 Finals MVPs

LeBron has
38.4K minutes
27.2 PPG
7.2 TRB
6.9 APG
1.7 SPG
0.8 BPG
3.4 Turnovers
27.7 PER
.581 TS%
192.5 WS
4 MVPs
3 Championships
3 Finals MVPs

And he's done this without having the benefit of college preparation.


Playoff numbers:
Jordan
5K Minutes
34.4 PPG
6.7 RPG
6.5 APG
2.3 SPG
1.0 BPG
3.4 Turnovers
29.2 PER
.579 TS%
26.3 WS
3 Rings, 10 playoff appearances


LeBron
8K Minutes
28.0 PPG
8.8 TRB
6.8 APG
1.8 SPG
0.9 BPG
3.5 Turnovers
27.7 PER
.567 TS%
41.6 WS
3 Rings in 11 playoff appearances


Jordan may be a tick ahead, but LeBron has played so many more minutes through this age, including the playoffs where LeBron has gone further more often than Jordan did.

Jordan was elite the next three seasons, and won 3 more rings and 3 more Finals MVP's
LeBron can age decently well and would absolutely need to belong in the 1A/1B conversation if he can sustain any decent health.

Don't forget that although they're both 31 at this time, Lebron played 3 seasons more than Jordan by this age, 4 if you include the injured one. And still lacks in many accolades and accomplishments.

Bruno
06-20-2016, 10:08 PM
Ill have to change my sig.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:10 PM
Don't forget that although they're both 31 at this time, Lebron played 3 seasons more than Jordan by this age, 4 if you include the injured one. And still lacks in many accolades and accomplishments.

then by this logic he just had the best finals ever in the body of a 35 year old with more miles on him than almost anybody correct?

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:12 PM
then by this logic he just had the best finals ever in the body of a 35 year old with more miles on him than almost anybody correct?

Far from best finals ever, but best finals in the body of a 35 year old? Sure have at it.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:12 PM
He doesn't get ranked higher just cuz he got another ring by once again being bailed out by his teammate hitting a huge 3.

Not hating here it's just the truth. Jordan won all 6 finals he was in and would highly likely have 8 straight titles if he didn't leave. He had a couple times where a teammate hit a big shot late but how many clutch shots did he make himself at the end of finals games? Including multiple game winning, championship clinching shots at the end of games.

Lebron is 3 for 7 in the finals and I don't think he's made the game winning shot once to win a series. Jordan was doing that in his sleep.

Maybe he cracks the top 6, but that's where he was before this one game where he shot 38% and missed a bunch of late shots including a couple layups.

He's a missed 3 pointer from Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving from possibly being 1-7 in the finals. Where would you have him ranked in that scenario? Cuz that's where he should still be ranked. His teammates making those shots don't propel him into top 3 like some on here believe.

I will never, ever understand the logic of posting a players Finals records.

This isn't an individual sport, and nobody can do it alone. And the biggest part of this. You are penalizing a guy for even making the Finals. It's literally better to you if he loses in the ECF. Do you realize that's what you are doing when you say something like 3-4 in the Finals?

LeBron's career Finals numbers are arguably better than Jordan's (just a little lower in PPG, more rebounds and assists and better defense on a per game basis - more triple doubles, more games leading both teams in points, assists, and rebounds, etc)

Through the age of 31...
Jordan had made the playoffs 10 times, and had 3 rings
LeBron has made the playoffs 11 times, and has won 3 rings

He lost in the ECF the two years before his first three peat. If he makes the Finals both of those years because the Pistons are physically located in the Western United States, then he is 3-2 in the Finals at this point. They lost in the playoffs 6 years in a row before winning their first Chip.


You act like Jordan won every time he laced them up or something.


Jordan and LeBron have had the same success through the same age so far.


And every body needs help with big three's etc. Did you forget LeBron's chase down block with 1:50 to go to preserve a tied game on Iguodala? What happens if that lay-up goes in? The Warriors are up 91-89 and Kyrie trying to hit a three in isolation is completely different.

It takes selective memory at this point to discredit LeBron.

5ass
06-20-2016, 10:14 PM
Ill have to change my sig.

Yeah change it 70 win teams eliminated ;)

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:15 PM
Far from best finals ever, but best finals in the body of a 35 year old? Sure have at it.

So beating one of the best teams ever and coming back from 1-3 and having 3 of the best games ever to do so with 2 of those games on the road where teams dont win all while being by far the best defender in the series and leading both teams in every statistical area? How is it not the best finals performance ever?

ink
06-20-2016, 10:15 PM
The evidence is in his actions. It was just a side comment not meant to throw off the thread. And yes, there have been a lot of jerks in NBA history. There's no anger attached to that, just a statement about how unpopular some of his actions have been. They've been talked about to death online so I'm not pursuing it. He's a great great player and that has never really changed.

Watching last night, live, after the game....the first reporter that got LeBron was a woman. Every thing he said was 'me', and 'I' and all of this work etc, etc, etc, he never said 'we' or 'our' or anything.

It's just annoying as hell to listen to that.


But that's not a LeBron thing, that's an NBA thing. That is consistent around the league.

Yep that was really annoying. I do think it's much more extreme in him. On the post game show the "I" talk was even worse. It matters to many that it's a team game, that was one of the main reasons it was great to see teams like the Warriors and Spurs win championships.

But again, personality aside, he is an absolute beast.

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:18 PM
So beating one of the best teams ever and coming back from 1-3 and having 3 of the best games ever to do so with 2 of those games on the road where teams dont win all while being by far the best defender in the series and leading both teams in every statistical area? How is it not the best finals performance ever?

Well it took the team to do it, I had Kyrie as the most important player in 5 out of the 7 games. Maybe 4 if I'm bein generous to Lebron. But shaqs 38/17 finals average immediately jumps out as far more dominant and that's without thinking.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:19 PM
Yep that was really annoying. I do think it's much more extreme in him. On the post game show the "I" talk was even worse. It matters to many that it's a team game, that was one of the main reasons it was great to see teams like the Warriors and Spurs win championships.

But again, personality aside, he is an absolute beast.

Lebrons a dick much like brady/rodgers/crosby/kobe/Shaq/Bonds/Clemons and so on down the list... These guys get the blame when they lose so I understand the point of the I and me when they win... Its the way of sports... Most of those guys are fantastic people much like lebron is an amazing person for what he does for people but when it comes to on the court he is a dick... Always have been and always will be.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:20 PM
Well it took the team to do it, I had Kyrie as the most important player in 5 out of the 7 games. Maybe 4 if I'm bein generous to Lebron. But shaqs 38/17 finals average immediately jumps out as far more dominant and that's without thinking.

So NOW it took the team to do it? But in his losses its all about him? in Kobe wins its all about him and we negate the super team around him but now that Lebron won its about THE TEAM? Do you realize how ironic and hilarious that is? I am not even gonna get into you thinking Kyrie was better in any game because again defense/rebounding/passing matters but you simply just love the person that shoots and score so whatever.... I just find it hilarious on how much stock you put in his what was going to be 2-5 record but now that he has his 3rd ring the TEAM did it. :rolleyes:

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:23 PM
Don't forget that although they're both 31 at this time, Lebron played 3 seasons more than Jordan by this age, 4 if you include the injured one. And still lacks in many accolades and accomplishments.

What does their seasons matter?

Do you only get X amount of minutes that you can play in a career?

Or is age more of a reason why guys retire?

Jordan played another 14,500 regular season minutes after 31 (includes Washington years), 2409 playoff minutes.

Unless LeBron is limited to playing less minutes throughout the rest of his career, the number of seasons they had played prior shouldn't matter.

You can't discredit LeBron for coming to the league earlier and also forget that he didn't get college preparation.

IKnowHoops
06-20-2016, 10:25 PM
Do you know how ironic it is for you to put out a list like that with that user name?

Its not ironic

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:26 PM
So NOW it took the team to do it? But in his losses its all about him? in Kobe wins its all about him and we negate the super team around him but now that Lebron won its about THE TEAM? Do you realize how ironic and hilarious that is? I am not even gonna get into you thinking Kyrie was better in any game because again defense/rebounding/passing matters but you simply just love the person that shoots and score so whatever.... I just find it hilarious on how much stock you put in his what was going to be 2-5 record but now that he has his 3rd ring the TEAM did it. :rolleyes:

This wasn't even what I was arguing against, I think people call it a straw man or something like that. But whatevs, you can have this one. I got papa johns to take care of right now.

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:27 PM
What does their seasons matter?

Do you only get X amount of minutes that you can play in a career?

Or is age more of a reason why guys retire?

Jordan played another 14,500 regular season minutes after 31 (includes Washington years), 2409 playoff minutes.

Unless LeBron is limited to playing less minutes throughout the rest of his career, the number of seasons they had played prior shouldn't matter.

You can't discredit LeBron for coming to the league earlier and also forget that he didn't get college preparation.

BecUse you're sayin stuff like by age 31 Jordan had 10 playoff seasons and Lebron had 11 or whatever. Well yeah, when you get 4 extra years lol. I think minutes or seasons is better to judge off than age. Just my opinion

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:28 PM
LeBron has already surpassed the total Bulls minutes that Jordan ever played. And in a year, he'll catch him in total career minutes (when you include Washington).


Somehow, Jordan is given more credit for losing in the ECF twice and losing in the playoffs up until his first three peat, and then is given extra credit for walking away (twice) after winning.

If LeBron retired right now, would he get extra credit in all-time ranks?

Bruno
06-20-2016, 10:28 PM
Well it took the team to do it, I had Kyrie as the most important player in 5 out of the 7 games. Maybe 4 if I'm bein generous to Lebron. But shaqs 38/17 finals average immediately jumps out as far more dominant and that's without thinking.

you could argue that Shaq was a beast from tip off game one. plus, if game 5-7 LBJ showed up in game one, this would have been a very short series. GS was garbage and vulnerable from the beginning. Non shooting vortex LBJ showed up to start this series and it wasn't working, they couldn't even get game one when Livingston was the best Warrior. LBJ was willing to win in the way that he didn't want to win and we gotta respect that, he had to go outside of his comfort zone to get this done, better late than never. it doesn't matter if a players criticisms are valid for 75% of their career. if they transcend later in their career into what critics always wanted them to be, that's how they're remembered (Wilt, MJ, Kobe, LeBron). All four of them were heavily criticized, then praised once they adjusted and closed the final holes in their games.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:28 PM
This wasn't even what I was arguing against, I think people call it a straw man or something like that. But whatevs, you can have this one. I got papa johns to take care of right now.

at least you choose the better of the 3 pizza places... We couldnt be friends if you said dominos.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 10:28 PM
Shaq averaged 37-18 on a team that doesn't compare to the Warriors.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 10:30 PM
Shaq got help from the refs for one ring... let's not get carried away with this nonsense, please. "If lebron played the way he did games 5-7".. If Shaq did, he would have beaten the Pistons.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:30 PM
BecUse you're sayin stuff like by age 31 Jordan had 10 playoff seasons and Lebron had 11 or whatever. Well yeah, when you get 4 extra years lol.

Do those 3 extra years really matter when they are his age 19, 20, and 21 seasons?

Through age 31, LeBron is at 13 seasons played, Jordan is at 10.

Were talking about what should be LeBron's college seasons (fresh through junior)

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:33 PM
Lebrons a dick much like brady/rodgers/crosby/kobe/Shaq/Bonds/Clemons and so on down the list... These guys get the blame when they lose so I understand the point of the I and me when they win... Its the way of sports... Most of those guys are fantastic people much like lebron is an amazing person for what he does for people but when it comes to on the court he is a dick... Always have been and always will be.

Rodgers is not a dick! Bye

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 10:33 PM
Rodgers is not a dick! Bye

lol he really is man.

Jeffy25
06-20-2016, 10:34 PM
This wasn't even what I was arguing against, I think people call it a straw man or something like that. But whatevs, you can have this one. I got papa johns to take care of right now.

I want some.........

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:37 PM
Do those 3 extra years really matter when they are his age 19, 20, and 21 seasons?

Through age 31, LeBron is at 13 seasons played, Jordan is at 10.

Were talking about what should be LeBron's college seasons (fresh through junior)

For normal players, prolly not. Lol but Jordan averaged almost 30 his rookie year, was averaging like 37 a game in his third year and Lebron 31 in his third. They both came into the league as not normal players. Both were capable of changing their franchises landscape from the get go unlike most.

jerellh528
06-20-2016, 10:38 PM
lol he really is man.

He's just got a quirky sense of humor lol

metswon69
06-20-2016, 10:47 PM
LeBron, at 31. Has the most playoff Win Shares all time, and is close to Jordan in PER.

He's still not as good as Jordan.

IKnowHoops
06-20-2016, 10:47 PM
It's hard to argue Lebron not being top 5 at this point.

But can we all come together finally once and for all and admit to ourselves how overrated Tim Duncan is?!?!

Duncan is not better than Lebron, Kobe, or Shaq.

Duncan was a product of Pop's system, nothing really that spectacular at all. Manu, Kawaii, & Tony Parker deserve just as much credit.

Drob was a victim of no system. If its going to work both ways, then David Robinson is better than both Kobe and Duncan.

IKnowHoops
06-20-2016, 10:50 PM
When people talk about Duncans rank, it has nothing to do with this season and the team was not built for or around Duncan this season. Duncan is an all time great, look at his numbers for his 1st 13 to 15 years, he would have done that anywhere. He had a great skill set.

I agree, and I do have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe is a guy that was in a perfect situation his whole career. You could grab 20 players and put them in his situation and they come out with the same number of rings or more.

Bruno
06-20-2016, 10:56 PM
I agree, and I do have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe is a guy that was in a perfect situation his whole career. You could grab 20 players and put them in his situation and they come out with the same number of rings or more.

you won't find a top 15 player who had a worse supporting cast during his physical prime of 26-28. nothing about the post championship era was perfect either with the coaching.

which 20 players would you put in Kobes place in the 2008 finals?

Bruno
06-20-2016, 10:58 PM
Yeah change it 70 win teams eliminated ;)

it'd be a short list haha.

metswon69
06-20-2016, 11:12 PM
Those Jordan's Bulls would have won 8 titles in a row had he not retired and you could argue Lebron had better individual stars around him than Jordan did in their respective final's appearances (aside from Lebron's first finals appearance). I understand basketball is a team game and that you can't fault Lebron for all his team's finals losses and give credit to Jordan for all those final's wins but there is something to the fact that Jordan's Bulls never even let a NBA finals go to 7 games.

I'm all for advanced analytics but Jordan is better than Lebron and always will be, even if the stats eventually favor Lebron. Better shooter, better defender, more lethal scorer, and Jordan was more clutch. Lebron is an amazing talent but they are also very different players.

metswon69
06-20-2016, 11:23 PM
I would also bet Lebron's 2nd half of his career doesn't go as well as Jordan's did. Lebron has a lot more miles on him with the head start he had on Jordan coming to the NBA right out of high school and the year and a half Jordan retired from basketball.

Jordan's mid range game evolving probably bought him another 3 years of being an elite level player. Lebron's mid range game has gone backwards.

sharqstealth
06-20-2016, 11:35 PM
I think he now is only behind Jordan and Wilt.

ChiTownPacerFan
06-20-2016, 11:51 PM
I love how these discussions pop up constantly and no one ever defines the parameters. Where does he rank in terms of what?! It's like saying, where do bananas rank among foods? It's such a vague question.

Here's a question that can actually be answered...
If you could pick any player of all time to start your franchise, and get them for their entire career, who would be your first, second, third choice, etc.?

I'd probably go

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. David Robinson
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. Magic

joedaheights
06-20-2016, 11:57 PM
He for sure slides up to my next tier. I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Magic
Dream/Kobe/Bird/Russell


By career end, I would imagine he is in my 2nd tier

How are you rating them? Talent? Or what actually happened? Because wilt chamberlain didn't accomplish more than the players you have him listed in front of

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 11:58 PM
When people talk about Duncans rank, it has nothing to do with this season and the team was not built for or around Duncan this season. Duncan is an all time great, look at his numbers for his 1st 13 to 15 years, he would have done that anywhere. He had a great skill set.

I agree, and I do have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe is a guy that was in a perfect situation his whole career. You could grab 20 players and put them in his situation and they come out with the same number of rings or more.

BS...Name 20

joedaheights
06-20-2016, 11:59 PM
I love how these discussions pop up constantly and no one ever defines the parameters. Where does he rank in terms of what?! It's like saying, where do bananas rank among foods? It's such a vague question.

Here's a question that can actually be answered...
If you could pick any player of all time to start your franchise, and get them for their entire career, who would be your first, second, third choice, etc.?

I'd probably go

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. David Robinson
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. Magic

Face in palms...

David Robinson in front of magic and bird? Wow. Really quickly who is better? Scottie Pippen or Glen Rice? Wait don't answer that

Cal827
06-20-2016, 11:59 PM
3rd, behind Jordan and Magic... and another title win to me would put him over Magic.

They were able to come back from 3-1 down against a team that just set the record for wins in a season.... winning twice (including the clincher) in enemy territory. Golden State might've choked this one away by not making proper adjustments, but Lebron was absolutely dominant in those last 3 games.

mngopher35
06-21-2016, 12:23 AM
It really depends on how you are ranking series but I can see some arguments for this being the best individual performance for a title (depends what is most important production, timing, pressure, opponent, help etc).

1st team to come back from down 3-1 in the finals (Lebron averaged 36.3, 9.7, 11.7 on over 50% and 40% from 3 shooting while arguably being top defender as well). The back to back 40 point games were huge but even the triple double and timely plays in game 7 were still impressive on top of that, hard to match/beat top three games considering.
First player to lead series in pts/ast/reb/stl/blk
In total averaged basically 30/9/11 on 114 ortg which might not be better as a total but comparable most likely despite the poor start he had
Beat the only team to ever win 73 games in a season
First game 7 away win in the finals since the 70's (I think)
Was facing the back to back MVP who some believe(d) was/is better currently

Now he didn't have a great start to the series and missed a couple opportunities in the losses to try and take over more so it wasn't all perfect but given his performance and the situation they were in against the Warriors I think there is a case to be made. It is in the running at least I would say.

ChiTownPacerFan
06-21-2016, 12:26 AM
Face in palms...

David Robinson in front of magic and bird? Wow. Really quickly who is better? Scottie Pippen or Glen Rice? Wait don't answer that

Magic's highest PER season was 27.0. Bird had one season higher than that. Robinson had seven.

I'm not a huge Pippen guy, but I'd take him pretty easily over Rice.

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 01:40 AM
How are you rating them? Talent? Or what actually happened? Because wilt chamberlain didn't accomplish more than the players you have him listed in front of

Its ****ing wilt man.... no one player wins a title even back then. 50 pts and 25 rebounds for a full season and the list goes on.

Jeffy25
06-21-2016, 01:43 AM
Those Jordan's Bulls would have won 8 titles in a row had he not retired and you could argue Lebron had better individual stars around him than Jordan did in their respective final's appearances (aside from Lebron's first finals appearance). I understand basketball is a team game and that you can't fault Lebron for all his team's finals losses and give credit to Jordan for all those final's wins but there is something to the fact that Jordan's Bulls never even let a NBA finals go to 7 games.

I'm all for advanced analytics but Jordan is better than Lebron and always will be, even if the stats eventually favor Lebron. Better shooter, better defender, more lethal scorer, and Jordan was more clutch. Lebron is an amazing talent but they are also very different players.

To be fair, who on those Bulls teams is going to stop Hakeem? Especially with Jordan and Pippen having to focus on Drexler/Horry/Maxwell/Thorpe, etc.

That 95 Rockets team would be insane for the Bulls as a matchup

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 02:02 AM
Those Jordan's Bulls would have won 8 titles in a row had he not retired and you could argue Lebron had better individual stars around him than Jordan did in their respective final's appearances (aside from Lebron's first finals appearance). I understand basketball is a team game and that you can't fault Lebron for all his team's finals losses and give credit to Jordan for all those final's wins but there is something to the fact that Jordan's Bulls never even let a NBA finals go to 7 games.

I'm all for advanced analytics but Jordan is better than Lebron and always will be, even if the stats eventually favor Lebron. Better shooter, better defender, more lethal scorer, and Jordan was more clutch. Lebron is an amazing talent but they are also very different players.

Lol better defender? Lebron is actually built for 80s and 90s basketball and that is what people dont understand.. Lebron should have won defensive player of the year in a league where you are no longer allowed to play defense like they did in the 90s... Lebron would have bullied people in the 90s with his size alone... Jordan is a great defender but lebron gets the nudge there... jordan is better but please tell me how Lebron had more talent around him than any of jordans championship years.... Again if you take lebron off of this cavs team they dont make the playoffs.... Jordans bulls won 50 something games without him... Wade/Bosh I can say its closer those years because of the overall core but outside of those 3 seasons its not even close including this year.... Love and kyrie play negative defense... People were ready to drop kyrie before he finally started to play well... TT was destroyed last year for the contract he got because people said he only grabs offensive rebounds....

Ron harper was a 20/6/5 guy
Kerr was as sharp a shooter as there was back then shooting 50 plus percent from 3
Tony Kukuc was a 16/5/5 guy on 50 plus percent shooting

Then you add in guys like Luc longley and the best defensive player in basketball in Rodman and then one of the best players in basketball in pippen

Give me this team over any team not named the warriors any day of the week and twice on Sunday.... Way to much talent. Lebrons heat days were talented no doubt and were up there but not as good as those bulls teams.... This team he just won with isnt even close to that bulls teams and this warriors team is probably a top 5 team ever they went against

So yes Jordan is better and will always be better most likely but its a lot closer now and lebron has never had a team as talented as those bulls teams.

LOb0
06-21-2016, 02:22 AM
Shaq averaged 37-18 on a team that doesn't compare to the Warriors.

To be fair, Shaq would have likely demolished this Warriors team. lol Bogut

IKnowHoops
06-21-2016, 03:20 AM
Whoops

IKnowHoops
06-21-2016, 03:26 AM
you won't find a top 15 player who had a worse supporting cast during his physical prime of 26-28. nothing about the post championship era was perfect either with the coaching.

which 20 players would you put in Kobes place in the 2008 finals?

OK lets see...
Game 1 Kobe was 9/26(.346) 24/3/6 Lakers lost 88-98
Game 2 Kobe was 11/23(.478) 30/4/8 Lakers lost 102-108
Game 3 Kobe was 12/20 (.600) 36/7/1 Lakers won 87-81
Game 4 Kobe was 6/19 (.316) 17/4/10 Lakers lost 91-97
Game 5 Kobe was 8/21 (.381) 25/7/4 Lakers won 103-98
Game 6 Kobe was 7/22 (.318) 22/3/1 Lakers lost 131-92


OK by Lebron Standards this is an awful series. Even by Kobe standards this is pretty bad. 1 great game, 1 good game, 2 bad games, 2 horrible games.

In Game #1 he played bad and they lost by 10 he shot (.346) from the field
In Game #4 he played horrible and they lost by 6 he shot (.316) from the field

I'd say both of those games were Kobe's fault. Thats just a lack of efficient production from Kobe that lost those games. I could find 50 guys that play better than that.

Supreme LA
06-21-2016, 03:27 AM
I agree, and I do have Duncan over Kobe. Kobe is a guy that was in a perfect situation his whole career. You could grab 20 players and put them in his situation and they come out with the same number of rings or more.

Of course you do, because you DONT know hoops. Please name 20!

In Pop's system you could plug in multiple big men for Duncan and still end up with the same amount of success. Why else do you think they've been able to draft guys so low and pull D-league type players and still contend. The argument for Duncan over Kobe is absurd.

Kobe has been the better player the player of his generation and that's a fact.
Kobe also has accomplished more individually while still having as much team success more with more responsibility on his shoulders.
Kobe also led his team to a repeat which Timmy has never done and you cannot discount what a challenging feat that is.

Hakeem was better than Duncan without a doubt.

IKnowHoops
06-21-2016, 03:32 AM
I love how these discussions pop up constantly and no one ever defines the parameters. Where does he rank in terms of what?! It's like saying, where do bananas rank among foods? It's such a vague question.

Here's a question that can actually be answered...
If you could pick any player of all time to start your franchise, and get them for their entire career, who would be your first, second, third choice, etc.?

I'd probably go

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. David Robinson
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. Magic

Good List

Supreme LA
06-21-2016, 03:33 AM
Do those 3 extra years really matter when they are his age 19, 20, and 21 seasons?

Through age 31, LeBron is at 13 seasons played, Jordan is at 10.

Were talking about what should be LeBron's college seasons (fresh through junior)

Umm yes those extra 3-4 years do matter.

We're talking about more NBA experience, earlier development, and not to mention a head start in constructing a team around Lebron to get him there. We all know how important that is.

It's not a knock on Lebron but you can't just throw that out there.

Lebron is top 5 now for sure. Why are people even debating this.

Supreme LA
06-21-2016, 03:35 AM
Good List

That's a stupid list. You really don't know **** do you?

How can you start a team with David Robinson ahead of Hakeem, Magic, or Wilt? That's just idiotic

Supreme LA
06-21-2016, 03:40 AM
OK lets see...
Game 1 Kobe was 9/26(.346) 24/3/6 Lakers lost 88-98
Game 2 Kobe was 11/23(.478) 30/4/8 Lakers lost 102-108
Game 3 Kobe was 12/20 (.600) 36/7/1 Lakers won 87-81
Game 4 Kobe was 6/19 (.316) 17/4/10 Lakers lost 91-97
Game 5 Kobe was 8/21 (.381) 25/7/4 Lakers won 103-98
Game 6 Kobe was 7/22 (.318) 22/3/1 Lakers lost 131-92


OK by Lebron Standards this is an awful series. Even by Kobe standards this is pretty bad. 1 great game, 1 good game, 2 bad games, 2 horrible games.

In Game #1 he played bad and they lost by 10 he shot (.346) from the field
In Game #4 he played horrible and they lost by 6 he shot (.316) from the field

I'd say both of those games were Kobe's fault. Thats just a lack of efficient production from Kobe that lost those games. I could find 50 guys that play better than that.

Now you could find 50 players that could have played better than against that Boston defense of 08'?!?!

WTF are you talking about?!?! Do you even recall the atrocious officiating that series. Kobe was manhandled and held like nobody's business.

That defense was insane and that doesn't even mention the fact that Pau was extremely soft and all Kobe's teammates had no experience in the postseason prior to that year. Only a hater would place all the blame on Kobe for that finals loss.

Shlumpledink
06-21-2016, 03:46 AM
Lebron is top 3 all time. Dude is a legend, and is an unstoppable force. Its time we respect him for what he is. 20 years from now we'll be singing a different tune when we're trying to hype up our generation compared to the next generation's talent.

LOb0
06-21-2016, 03:47 AM
Now you could find 50 players that could have played better than against that Boston defense of 08'?!?!

WTF are you talking about?!?! Do you even recall the atrocious officiating that series. Kobe was manhandled and held like nobody's business.

That defense was insane and that doesn't even mention the fact that Pau was extremely soft and all Kobe's teammates had no experience in the postseason prior to that year. Only a hater would place all the blame on Kobe for that finals loss.

Only a Kobe fan would find a way to justify it..

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 03:51 AM
Now you could find 50 players that could have played better than against that Boston defense of 08'?!?!

WTF are you talking about?!?! Do you even recall the atrocious officiating that series. Kobe was manhandled and held like nobody's business.

That defense was insane and that doesn't even mention the fact that Pau was extremely soft and all Kobe's teammates had no experience in the postseason prior to that year. Only a hater would place all the blame on Kobe for that finals loss.

you cant bring up officiating to help the lakers ever sorry. Not when its a known fact the league rigged it for them to win rings sorry

mngopher35
06-21-2016, 04:03 AM
For me the biggest difference for Timmy over Kobe is the large gap defensively. It's not that Kobe wasn't good, it's just that big men can dominate as anchors and Duncan is one of the best ever. It did fall off in his later years with how the game is changing now but in his prime he was a beast (you can add great rebounding as another advantage for bigs). Statistically he is better in the playoffs than Kobe was (don't remember exact numbers but it was PER, WS/48 and BPM). I think another thing with Duncan is that one of the biggest reasons he didn't have quite the same volume is the ball movement the Spurs teams have had so I tend to not knock that too much considering he was still like 24/13/3 or something with that defense and he was the main creator in his prime. The movement tended to start through him and defenses adjusted to him and that is key.

Supreme I think you said Kobe is more accomplished individually but I disagree. To me the most important awards are FMVP and MVP and Duncan has an advantage in both. Now with All NBA teams and All defensive it might change a little but I also feel as though Kobe wasn't as good of a defender as portrayed when he won some of his awards (I have seen many Laker/Kobe fans concede this, not sure if you have). Also the more on his shoulders thing is a little up for debate too. I don't think any title Kobe won was as impressive and needing to shoulder the load as much as Duncan in 03. To me between them that is the best individual post season for either one of them and it has to do with the load he carried. Tony Parker was like 2nd year, Manu first year, and Drob wasn't the same anymore but they took down Shaq/Kobe among others and he had like 28/12/5 (great efficiency too) with his defense in that series. So late Kobe shouldered the load more than late Duncan (and vice versa) but comparing when they lead their teams to championships I think Duncan has that advantage with the 03 title of "shouldering the largest load".

L8kers4life
06-21-2016, 04:35 AM
For me the biggest difference for Timmy over Kobe is the large gap defensively. It's not that Kobe wasn't good, it's just that big men can dominate as anchors and Duncan is one of the best ever. It did fall off in his later years with how the game is changing now but in his prime he was a beast (you can add great rebounding as another advantage for bigs). Statistically he is better in the playoffs than Kobe was (don't remember exact numbers but it was PER, WS/48 and BPM). I think another thing with Duncan is that one of the biggest reasons he didn't have quite the same volume is the ball movement the Spurs teams have had so I tend to not knock that too much considering he was still like 24/13/3 or something with that defense and he was the main creator in his prime. The movement tended to start through him and defenses adjusted to him and that is key.

Supreme I think you said Kobe is more accomplished individually but I disagree. To me the most important awards are FMVP and MVP and Duncan has an advantage in both. Now with All NBA teams and All defensive it might change a little but I also feel as though Kobe wasn't as good of a defender as portrayed when he won some of his awards (I have seen many Laker/Kobe fans concede this, not sure if you have). Also the more on his shoulders thing is a little up for debate too. I don't think any title Kobe won was as impressive and needing to shoulder the load as much as Duncan in 03. To me between them that is the best individual post season for either one of them and it has to do with the load he carried. Tony Parker was like 2nd year, Manu first year, and Drob wasn't the same anymore but they took down Shaq/Kobe among others and he had like 28/12/5 (great efficiency too) with his defense in that series. So late Kobe shouldered the load more than late Duncan (and vice versa) but comparing when they lead their teams to championships I think Duncan has that advantage with the 03 title of "shouldering the largest load".

Although I agree with you on most things, Timmy over Kobe I cant buy. Yes Timmy has more MVP's, and rebounds and blocks than Kobe. But lets not downplay Kobe's impact on defense and the fact he was the lightning rod and catalyst for the first 3 rings. Kobe defended every teams best perimeter player night in and night out, especially in the playoffs and he thrived in that role. No matter how you shake it Kobe being on 14 all NBA defensive teams was no coincidence.

Kobe has more minutes, more points, field goals made, attempted, assists, steals, all star appearances, finals appearances, scoring avg., higher free throw percentage, 3 point percentage, playoff scoring, all NBA 1st team selections, I can go on for days.

Yes in 2003 Timmy had to carry the heavier load of any of there championships, but who has carried the heavier load over 20 years, while having 9 different coaches in those 20 years. There were no nights off for Kobe or managing his minutes until he blew out his Achilles. For 16 of his 20 years you could run him night in and night out for 38-40 minutes. There were no, hey Kobe needs a rest, its a back to back.

Timmy had Pop his whole career, had the stability of either Robinson, or Manu and Tony Parker and Pop his entire career and still only went to 5 finals vs Kobe 7 and the same amount of rings. And Timmy is 2-5 head to head against Kobe and the Lakers. On top of that Kobe had 3 wasted years in his prime with the likes of Smush parker, Kwame Brown and Slava Medvedenko, plus the 2 crappy years after he blew out his Achilles and took that unnecessary money. Still that is 5 years out of 20 he could not really enhance his playoff opportunities. Timmy had 0 wasted years, his team has had talent his entire career. Yes he willingness to take less money helped, but the Lakers front office we can all admit, is not the brightest, I think Kobe's last contract proved that.

Kobe and KG paved the way for LeBron to come out of HS, he dealt with the pressure for 20 years and is regarded by his peers and all time greats as in that conversation. He is an ICON globally and when history looks back, Kobe will be looked at on a slightly different level than Timmy, and that will piss some people off around here. But when the NBA does its new top 50, Kobe will be higher on that list.

With that being said, Kobe is not at LeBrons Level, LeBron is in that top 3 conversation..

mngopher35
06-21-2016, 05:31 AM
Although I agree with you on most things, Timmy over Kobe I cant buy. Yes Timmy has more MVP's, and rebounds and blocks than Kobe. But lets not downplay Kobe's impact on defense and the fact he was the lightning rod and catalyst for the first 3 rings. Kobe defended every teams best perimeter player night in and night out, especially in the playoffs and he thrived in that role. No matter how you shake it Kobe being on 14 all NBA defensive teams was no coincidence.

Kobe was not however the one demanding the defensive attention at that time like Timmy in his prime. Timmy was the main impact on both ends for those teams in their prime while Kobe had the luxury of playing off of peak Shaq. I do agree Kobe was a main part of those teams and he was a very good 1v1 defender when he was younger. If you think all those defensive awards were deserved based on his actual play/impact even later in his career then we can just agree to disagree on that part now.


Kobe has more minutes, more points, field goals made, attempted, assists, steals, all star appearances, finals appearances, scoring avg., higher free throw percentage, 3 point percentage, playoff scoring, all NBA 1st team selections, I can go on for days.

Timmy has more rebounds, blocks, much greater impact defensively, less missed field goal attempts, higher PER, WS/48, BPM (all both RS and post season), more of the major awards that tend to separate all time greats from others (MVP/FMVP), I can go on for days too.

I agree that Kobe is an all time great and has some arguments for him it's just that to me given the stats/awards/defense I just see it all favoring Timmy. Kobe will have volume for sure and his scoring is better than Duncan but I would give up the 5? ppg he adds to get the playmaking/ball movement Duncan was able to generally create in his prime due to shifting the defense. Duncan and Kobe were pretty close on their scoring efficiency so the extra few ppg to me while nice and indicating his talent isn't a major gap/sign that Duncan wasn't capable to me. More just that they had different styles/offenses. I see a bigger gap between them on the defensive end for sure


Yes in 2003 Timmy had to carry the heavier load of any of there championships, but who has carried the heavier load over 20 years, while having 9 different coaches in those 20 years. There were no nights off for Kobe or managing his minutes until he blew out his Achilles. For 16 of his 20 years you could run him night in and night out for 38-40 minutes. There were no, hey Kobe needs a rest, its a back to back.

Kobe has one more season in the NBA and has played like 700ish more total minutes. You can talk about all the coaches Kobe has had but he had Phil all but like 1 or 2 years in his prime when he was competing (2 if you count 2012 with Brown). The other coach was for one season where Kobe played like 60 and they missed the playoffs I'm pretty sure. Again though I do agree he carried more during the later part of his career, just like Duncan carried more earlier on in his career. Duncan getting his minutes managed was a luxury though that is true.


Timmy had Pop his whole career, had the stability of either Robinson, or Manu and Tony Parker and Pop his entire career and still only went to 5 finals vs Kobe 7 and the same amount of rings. And Timmy is 2-5 head to head against Kobe and the Lakers. On top of that Kobe had 3 wasted years in his prime with the likes of Smush parker, Kwame Brown and Slava Medvedenko, plus the 2 crappy years after he blew out his Achilles and took that unnecessary money. Still that is 5 years out of 20 he could not really enhance his playoff opportunities. Timmy had 0 wasted years, his team has had talent his entire career. Yes he willingness to take less money helped, but the Lakers front office we can all admit, is not the brightest, I think Kobe's last contract proved that.

Kobe had Phil almost every year he had a truly competitive team, you are making the coaching thing out to be something it isn't it seems. While I agree Duncan had good supporting casts he did not walk into a situation where he got to be a secondary offensive force to the player with arguably the best peak ever for an 8 year stretch (3 rings at least arguably another appearance depending on how you see 04). You can't pretend like that isn't a bigger advantage than pretty much anyone else has had (maybe Magic/Kareem and that group or Russell but not from this era). Kobe has been to 3 (or 4) finals and won 2 as the man. IMO Duncan has been to and won 4 as the main guy (despite Parkers FMVP in that blow out we know Duncan was the best on that team). Duncan did have a longer time period for this though. I know this makes some people angry and I am not just trying to jab at Kobe here but if you want to start talking about finals/rings for individuals then you need to at least separate the best player who is the main reason for it or else it isn't comparable. Kobe was a great player then don't get me wrong but having the defensive attention/focus and pressure on you it's different and if we narrow down team success to individuals we have to give the credit to the main one. Just like the later ring wasn't as big of a deal as the early ones for Duncan either so I didn't count that one.

Again despite all this help you mention we seem to agree Duncan was the one who ended up with the "heaviest load to carry" in 2003 between them due to lack of help comparatively. Both of these players had a lot of help but I really don't see an argument against Duncan here after Kobe had prime Shaq for 8 years. Kobe did have a lack of help at his peak though. He certainly could have had more success leading a team if he had that, this is why counting rings/finals doesn't make sense to me. So many variables go into outside of individuals play.


Kobe and KG paved the way for LeBron to come out of HS, he dealt with the pressure for 20 years and is regarded by his peers and all time greats as in that conversation. He is an ICON globally and when history looks back, Kobe will be looked at on a slightly different level than Timmy, and that will piss some people off around here. But when the NBA does its new top 50, Kobe will be higher on that list.

With that being said, Kobe is not at LeBrons Level, LeBron is in that top 3 conversation..

I agree Kobe has more fans/popularity if that is what you are getting at and I agree about Lebron. If we are talking basketball impact and ranking these guys off that I still gotta put Duncan over Kobe though.

hidalgo
06-21-2016, 05:34 AM
probably #5 all time now, just nudging Duncan back to #6. well ahead of Kobe now for sure

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlin
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell

thenaj17
06-21-2016, 06:10 AM
He was already top 5 for me, pushing for top 3 and GOAT conversation with 1 more as the leading man.

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
LeBron
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan

Munkeysuit
06-21-2016, 06:12 AM
Lebron's ranking IMHO

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russel
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille Oneal
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Lebron James
10. Larry Bird

hidalgo
06-21-2016, 06:32 AM
And for people who have Duncan higher than kobe... how? What's the reasoning? They have the same # of rings but Duncan was really only the man for 1 of em kobe was the man for 2. Kobe had at least one mvp stolen from him by nash.

But I digress that's not what this thread is I guesswhat are you talking about? Duncan was the best on his team for at least 4 or his 5 titles. kobe only 2 of 5. duncan 3 finals mvps, kobe 2. duncan 2 mvps, kobe 1. duncan all 50+ win seasons. kobe not even close to that, & has missed the playoffs are few times. it's no contest really.

cg_la00
06-21-2016, 06:59 AM
Comparing Kobe to Duncan is like comparing apples to oranges. U can't knock on players for not having better rebounds, blocks, steals or whatever because forwards/centers do better at certain things than guards and vice versa. It's a stupid argument to start. When I compare Kobe to Duncan I take their competition in their respective positions into account. So who had to face tougher opponents throughout their career? I would argue there has been better guards that Kobe has had to face than power forwards that Duncan had to face. I also take into account of how dominant Kobe was while playing with basically broken fingers for like 4 years. Not a lot of players can do that. So since Kobe and Duncan are so close achievements wise I still give the nod to Kobe because of what I said above. Oh and to all the people who aren't even putting Kobe in the top 10, just stop with your trolling smh

Btw, although I truly believe kyrie was a huge part of why Cleveland won the ship this year I will give Lebron credit, that being said I think Lebron can finally be considered top 10 and when he retires top 5.

List:
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Lebron (for now)
Bird
Russell/west (interchangeable)

FraziersKnicks
06-21-2016, 08:01 AM
Amazed at how high some people have Magic considering he only played one side of the ball and LeBron has already passed him in most statistical categories including minutes and games played in both the regular season and playoffs.

The only guys you can make an argument for being above LeBron now are MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Shaq and maybe Duncan.

YAALREADYKNO
06-21-2016, 08:52 AM
Jordan
Magic
Shaq
LEBRON/

mightybosstone
06-21-2016, 09:00 AM
I REALLY don't understand the love for Magic Johnson. Am I missing something, or is everyone else just inflating his career based on public opinion? Was he a remarkable player? Sure. But there were a LOT of holes in his game. He was mostly an average defender in his career, and became a minus defender by the time he retired. And while he was a great offensive player, he was not remotely the same scorer as the other guys we're talking about in this discussion were. We're talking about a guy who only topped 20+ PPG four times in his entire career.

And as far as intangibles and accolades go, yeah, the guy has five titles. But he earned Finals MVP three times (same as Lebron), and he did so playing with arguably the most stacked team in the history of the sport. Also, because he retired early, he's pretty far down most all-time lists in terms of longevity.

I'm not trying to say the guy isn't a top 10 player, but when I actually look at the facts, I have a very difficult time placing him in the top 5. So for the guys who rank him in the top 3 or even top 5, what is your justification for doing so?

Hawkeye15
06-21-2016, 09:55 AM
I REALLY don't understand the love for Magic Johnson. Am I missing something, or is everyone else just inflating his career based on public opinion? Was he a remarkable player? Sure. But there were a LOT of holes in his game. He was mostly an average defender in his career, and became a minus defender by the time he retired. And while he was a great offensive player, he was not remotely the same scorer as the other guys we're talking about in this discussion were. We're talking about a guy who only topped 20+ PPG four times in his entire career.

And as far as intangibles and accolades go, yeah, the guy has five titles. But he earned Finals MVP three times (same as Lebron), and he did so playing with arguably the most stacked team in the history of the sport. Also, because he retired early, he's pretty far down most all-time lists in terms of longevity.

I'm not trying to say the guy isn't a top 10 player, but when I actually look at the facts, I have a very difficult time placing him in the top 5. So for the guys who rank him in the top 3 or even top 5, what is your justification for doing so?

Magic and Bird get pumped up for nostalgic reasons. Go look at the path to the finals in all the Lakers finals trips. They played usually putrid teams to start the playoffs, sometimes even in the 2nd round.

If LeBron had a series like Bird in the 82' playoffs, where he got locked up by the Sixers, he would get killed. Bird wasn't a 20 year old kid or anything, dude was a 25 year old man. He had a couple other series where his favored Celtics lost, and he was held in check. And yes, the Lakers hid Magic's porous defense with Cooper, Scott, a few others, and speed.

lavell12
06-21-2016, 10:38 AM
Duncan, Jordan, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron and Russell played D. Shaq, Kareem, Bird, and Magic were not a good defensive players.

Chronz
06-21-2016, 11:01 AM
So if Irving misses that 3, or the Warriors were healthy and win Lebron is not as good historically?

Pretty much.

Chronz
06-21-2016, 11:03 AM
Duncan, Jordan, Wilt, Kobe, LeBron and Russell played D. Shaq, Kareem, Bird, and Magic were not a good defensive players.
Kaj was elite defensively, team d wise. he just had problems with brutes. Shaq was kind of the inverse of that. He could shut down his man better but struggled against quicker guys

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 11:55 AM
Kobe has choked harder in the Finals than LeBron. That's a simple fact. He's played worse and ended up winning, still. Pau Gasol/Metta hit the clutch shots for Kobe while Kobe did nothing but rebound the ball. Sorry, it's the truth. He's great but some of you need to stop with LeBron can't perform in the Finals. He's one of the BEST NBA Finals performer ever. 2011 was a different story (Kobe has played worse than LeBron did in 2011, FYI).

The love of Magic/Bird in NBA universe is really overrated. Two guys who played on incredibly stacked teams that any superstar would beg for. Give me a break... one guy played with the best Center who is ahead of him in many rankings, Worthy was an absolute beast and clutch, Scott was a lights out scorer and both guys on the fastbreak was a killer. I don't even need to talk about Bird... he sucked in many playoff series and no one ever speaks about it. LeBron sucks one game and you guys have a parade about it. He's passed them ever since he got his 2nd ring. That's not even crossing my mind anymore.

ManRam
06-21-2016, 11:57 AM
He doesn't get ranked higher just cuz he got another ring by once again being bailed out by his teammate hitting a huge 3.

Not hating here it's just the truth. Jordan won all 6 finals he was in and would highly likely have 8 straight titles if he didn't leave. He had a couple times where a teammate hit a big shot late but how many clutch shots did he make himself at the end of finals games? Including multiple game winning, championship clinching shots at the end of games.

Lebron is 3 for 7 in the finals and I don't think he's made the game winning shot once to win a series. Jordan was doing that in his sleep.

Maybe he cracks the top 6, but that's where he was before this one game where he shot 38% and missed a bunch of late shots including a couple layups.

He's a missed 3 pointer from Ray Allen and Kyrie Irving from possibly being 1-7 in the finals. Where would you have him ranked in that scenario? Cuz that's where he should still be ranked. His teammates making those shots don't propel him into top 3 like some on here believe.

the mental gymnastics, man. impressive!

Jewelz0376
06-21-2016, 12:04 PM
Kobe has choked harder in the Finals than LeBron. That's a simple fact. He's played worse and ended up winning, still. Pau Gasol/Metta hit the clutch shots for Kobe while Kobe did nothing but rebound the ball. Sorry, it's the truth. He's great but some of you need to stop with LeBron can't perform in the Finals. He's one of the BEST NBA Finals performer ever. 2011 was a different story (Kobe has played worse than LeBron did in 2011, FYI).

The love of Magic/Bird in NBA universe is really overrated. Two guys who played on incredibly stacked teams that any superstar would beg for. Give me a break... one guy played with the best Center who is ahead of him in many rankings, Worthy was an absolute beast and clutch, Scott was a lights out scorer and both guys on the fastbreak was a killer. I don't even need to talk about Bird... he sucked in many playoff series and no one ever speaks about it. LeBron sucks one game and you guys have a parade about it. He's passed them ever since he got his 2nd ring. That's not even crossing my mind anymore.

I love it when people post their opinion and says its fact lol

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 12:39 PM
I love it when people post their opinion and says its fact lol

It's a fact if you can't disprove it, no? I'll be waiting.. or you can go in hiding once you see the numbers.

L8kers4life
06-21-2016, 12:46 PM
what are you talking about? Duncan was the best on his team for at least 4 or his 5 titles. kobe only 2 of 5. duncan 3 finals mvps, kobe 2. duncan 2 mvps, kobe 1. duncan all 50+ win seasons. kobe not even close to that, & has missed the playoffs are few times. it's no contest really.

Who cares about 50 Win seasons, the reality is, Timmy is 2-5 against Kobe in the playoffs, Kobe has been to the finals 2 more times than Timmy and Timmy had Pop for his entire career. Kobe had Phil for 9 years out of 20 and managed to go to 7 finals during that time period.

And this crap about Timmy carrying a heavy load, doesn't mean much when Kobe as the second option averaged more points than Tim as a number 1 option. Kobe facilitated the offense and was our best perimeter defender.

This Timmy thing is a joke, everybody acts like Kobe was handed Shaq, yet nobody mentions Timmy was gifted Pop and David Robinson his first year and won his first ring that year, which happened to be a lockout 50 game season.

So let's get this straight, Tim came into the league with David Robinson and arguably the greatest coach of all time, won his rookie year during a lockout shortened season, played with hall of famers his entire career, yet he went to less finals than Kobe and has the same amount of rings, and never repeated or 3 peated, all while Kobe had 9 coaches in his career, and 5 wasted years, and after all that he only has 1 less MVP and 1 less FMVP. You guys are over rating Timmy sorry..

FraziersKnicks
06-21-2016, 01:19 PM
Who cares about 50 Win seasons, the reality is, Timmy is 2-5 against Kobe in the playoffs, Kobe has been to the finals 2 more times than Timmy and Timmy had Pop for his entire career. Kobe had Phil for 9 years out of 20 and managed to go to 7 finals during that time period.

And this crap about Timmy carrying a heavy load, doesn't mean much when Kobe as the second option averaged more points than Tim as a number 1 option. Kobe facilitated the offense and was our best perimeter defender.

This Timmy thing is a joke, everybody acts like Kobe was handed Shaq, yet nobody mentions Timmy was gifted Pop and David Robinson his first year and won his first ring that year, which happened to be a lockout 50 game season.

So let's get this straight, Tim came into the league with David Robinson and arguably the greatest coach of all time, won his rookie year during a lockout shortened season, played with hall of famers his entire career, yet he went to less finals than Kobe and has the same amount of rings, and never repeated or 3 peated, all while Kobe had 9 coaches in his career, and 5 wasted years, and after all that he only has 1 less MVP and 1 less FMVP. You guys are over rating Timmy sorry..

So much wrong with this :laugh2:

Timmy has been to 6 finals for a start. He didn't win his first title in his rookie year, it was his sophomore season. A 34 year old D-Rob averaged 15/10 that playoffs whilst TD averaged 23/12/3 and 3 blocks. D-Rob then rode Timmy to another title in 2002-03 when Duncan had a better finals then any playoff series Kobe has ever had.

He had two players average double digit points as support those playoffs... A 20 year old Tony Parker who scored 15 a game on 40% shooting and Stephen Jackson who averaged 13 on 41% shooting. He put up 25/15/5 with 3.3 blocks. In the finals he averaged 24/17/5 with 5 blocks and had 21/20/10 and 8 blocks in the clinching game. Kobe has never done anything even close to that. This was all without any support (rookie Manu, 20 year old Parker and 37 year old David Robinson). That's what Timmy did without any help.

You take Kobe's HOF big men away and he can't even make the playoffs.

Duncan has been the foundation of 19 straight 50-win seasons (the lockout years winning % projects to 50+ wins), the ultimate teammate, one of the greatest defenders ever, won more MVP's and Finals MVP's than Kobe, had a higher peak than Kobe and had even more longevity than the guy who's main argument is longevity.

TD > Kobe

L8kers4life
06-21-2016, 01:33 PM
So much wrong with this :laugh2:

Timmy has been to 6 finals for a start. He didn't win his first title in his rookie year, it was his sophomore season. A 34 year old D-Rob averaged 15/10 that playoffs whilst TD averaged 23/12/3 and 3 blocks. D-Rob then rode Timmy to another title in 2002-03 when Duncan had a better finals then any playoff series Kobe has ever had.

He had two players average double digit points as support those playoffs... A 20 year old Tony Parker who scored 15 a game on 40% shooting and Stephen Jackson who averaged 13 on 41% shooting. He put up 25/15/5 with 3.3 blocks. In the finals he averaged 24/17/5 with 5 blocks and had 21/20/10 and 8 blocks in the clinching game. Kobe has never done anything even close to that. This was all without any support (rookie Manu, 20 year old Parker and 37 year old David Robinson). That's what Timmy did without any help.

You take Kobe's HOF big men away and he can't even make the playoffs.

Duncan has been the foundation of 19 straight 50-win seasons (the lockout years winning % projects to 50+ wins), the ultimate teammate, one of the greatest defenders ever, won more MVP's and Finals MVP's than Kobe, had a higher peak than Kobe and had even more longevity than the guy who's main argument is longevity.

TD > Kobe

Dude, your way off, none of that means he is better, you still didn't touch on my points. Here is a simple question. If Kobe had Phil all 20 years, would this even be a question? Kobe only had Phil 9 years and still has been to the finals more, and Kobe and smush and kwame almost took out the Suns in Nashs mvp years.

Tim is 2-5 against Kobe in the playoffs and again Kobe 3peated with Shaq and went back to back and to 3 straight finals with Pau. You can make your arguments all day, but it is hilarious that you bring up Kobe having no chance without a great big, yet Timmy had more talent and coaching for a longer time, yet he struggled against the Lakers and lobes team's accomplished more. Back to back, 3peat, 15-1 finals record.

History will have Kobe ranked higher. Go back to your whole, hell go ask his own coach Pop who had the better career, even he would have a hard time saying Timmy. Kobe is a Icon, Timmy is the 2nd best player of that era, even he would tell you that.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2016, 01:40 PM
Kobe versus Tim comes down to what you value. Me personally, 2 way bigs all day when it's a close call. My top 11 has 4 perimeter players, and 7 big men.

Supreme LA
06-21-2016, 02:00 PM
So much wrong with this :laugh2:

Timmy has been to 6 finals for a start. He didn't win his first title in his rookie year, it was his sophomore season. A 34 year old D-Rob averaged 15/10 that playoffs whilst TD averaged 23/12/3 and 3 blocks. D-Rob then rode Timmy to another title in 2002-03 when Duncan had a better finals then any playoff series Kobe has ever had.

He had two players average double digit points as support those playoffs... A 20 year old Tony Parker who scored 15 a game on 40% shooting and Stephen Jackson who averaged 13 on 41% shooting. He put up 25/15/5 with 3.3 blocks. In the finals he averaged 24/17/5 with 5 blocks and had 21/20/10 and 8 blocks in the clinching game. Kobe has never done anything even close to that. This was all without any support (rookie Manu, 20 year old Parker and 37 year old David Robinson). That's what Timmy did without any help.

You take Kobe's HOF big men away and he can't even make the playoffs.

Duncan has been the foundation of 19 straight 50-win seasons (the lockout years winning % projects to 50+ wins), the ultimate teammate, one of the greatest defenders ever, won more MVP's and Finals MVP's than Kobe, had a higher peak than Kobe and had even more longevity than the guy who's main argument is longevity.

TD > Kobe

Wrong. Kobe dragged a crap team with Kwame Brown as his big to the playoffs and pushed the 2nd seed Suns to 7 games.

If you take Pop away from Timmy he wins no titles.

In fact, if you took away Robinson, Manu, Parker, or Kawai then Timmy wins no titles.

FraziersKnicks
06-21-2016, 02:24 PM
Wrong. Kobe dragged a crap team with Kwame Brown as his big to the playoffs and pushed the 2nd seed Suns to 7 games.

If you take Pop away from Timmy he wins no titles.

In fact, if you took away Robinson, Manu, Parker, or Kawai then Timmy wins no titles.

So who did Timmy have in 2002-03? As I've already mentioned Tony Parker was 20, Manu was a rookie and D-Rob was 37.

In case you've got a short memory, Timmy dropped 28/12/5 whilst knocking out Kobe/Shaq in 6 games with very little help from his teammates.

You take Shaq and Pau away from Kobe and he's lucky to make a Finals let alone win a ring. Duncan has done something Kobe never did... He led his team to a championship as the absolute standalone guy in 2002-03.

You can throw around all these hypotheticals like taking Pop away from TD etc. but at the end of the day Timmy has shown what he can do on his own. Kobe never showed anything like that.

You ask any GM or knowledgable, unbiased NBA fan who they would start a franchise with and every single person would say Tim Duncan.

kdspurman
06-21-2016, 02:25 PM
If a select few want to put Kobe ahead of Duncan, that's your prerogative. Most don't but that's not the biggest deal. But to downplay Duncan's greatness and flat out disrespect is just ignorant and seems borderline comedic

kdspurman
06-21-2016, 02:27 PM
So who did Timmy have in 2002-03? As I've already mentioned Tony Parker was 20, Manu was a rookie and D-Rob was 37.

In case you've got a short memory, Timmy dropped 28/12/5 whilst knocking out Kobe/Shaq in 6 games with very little help from his teammates.

You take Shaq and Pau away from Kobe and he's lucky to make a Finals let alone win a ring. Duncan has done something Kobe never did... He led his team to a championship as the absolute standalone guy in 2002-03.

You can throw around all these hypotheticals like taking Pop away from TD etc. but at the end of the day Timmy has shown what he can do on his own. Kobe never showed anything like that.

You ask any GM or knowledgable, unbiased NBA fan who they would start a franchise with and every single person would say Tim Duncan.

I was just going to comment and say this same exact thing... If you know nothing about the coach or roster around, you would go with TD. He's proven what he can do with a lesser roster already and what kind of teammate he is.

Heediot
06-21-2016, 02:37 PM
I'd take Timmy after MJ to start a team. That's just me. He is the consummate teammate and pro. Unselfish to a fault. Has the quiet killer instinct and that humble confidence. I am not saying he is top 2 all time, but I would take him for his intangibles and there is just something about him to me that helps you win.

FraziersKnicks
06-21-2016, 02:42 PM
Dude, your way off, none of that means he is better, you still didn't touch on my points. Here is a simple question. If Kobe had Phil all 20 years, would this even be a question? Kobe only had Phil 9 years and still has been to the finals more, and Kobe and smush and kwame almost took out the Suns in Nashs mvp years.

Tim is 2-5 against Kobe in the playoffs and again Kobe 3peated with Shaq and went back to back and to 3 straight finals with Pau. You can make your arguments all day, but it is hilarious that you bring up Kobe having no chance without a great big, yet Timmy had more talent and coaching for a longer time, yet he struggled against the Lakers and lobes team's accomplished more. Back to back, 3peat, 15-1 finals record.

History will have Kobe ranked higher. Go back to your whole, hell go ask his own coach Pop who had the better career, even he would have a hard time saying Timmy. Kobe is a Icon, Timmy is the 2nd best player of that era, even he would tell you that.

How did Kobe's Lakers accomplish more? They've both won 5 titles? The Spurs have been a contender every year they've had Tim Duncan. The Lakers were only contenders when Kobe was playing with Shaq or Pau. Is it not glaringly obvious why?

Why is a 3 peat and a back to back more successful than sustained contending and the same amount of championships spread out over 17 years?

Timmy never had a player of Shaq's quality. Hell, he never had a player of Pau's quality whilst he was in his prime (Kawhi is better than Pau now Timmy is over the hill). So I don't know where you're getting this idea that TD had more talent on his teams.

It seems to be consensus among none Laker fans that TD is ranked higher than Kobe all-time.


He for sure slides up to my next tier. I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Magic
Dream/Kobe/Bird/Russell


By career end, I would imagine he is in my 2nd tier


#3 or #4. I think he's interchangeable with Wilt at this point. Jordan still the clear cut #1 and I don't imagine LeBron will pass him. Just too hard to do. Kareem is my #2. LeBron has a shot at that, but will also take a lot of work. Then I have Wilt/LeBron following. Probably right behind them is Duncan/Shaq/Magic in that order.

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt/LeBron
Duncan

That's my top 5 right now. I think you can feel pretty confident about penciling LeBron in top 4. I think when LeBron's career is all said and done, he'll be debated between Kareem for the #2 spot.


1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. LeBron
7. Magic
8. Kobe
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

I'd like to see his how game ages before putting him in the top 5. Most likely ends up Top 4. Fenomenal all-around player.


1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Russell
4 Magic
5 LeBron
6 Kareem
7 Duncan
8 Bird
9 Kobe
10 Shaq


1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. Magic
9. Russell
10. Bird


Mj
Kareem/magic/wilt
Duncan/Kobe/shaq/Lebron
Hakeem/Bird/Oscar


lol are people really calling Timmy D a product of Pops system? Who is to say he isnt the reason why said system worked and became insanely great? Duncan never had the talent around him a Kobe had in my opinion... I love Parker and G but they arent Shaq/Gasol/Horry etc etc and Oh yea Phil Jackson.. Timmy D is probably in my 4-6 range.... In fact without thinking about it right now my list would go

MJ
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan/Lebron/Wilt-Mix and match these any way you want- and I wont argue


Then we get to the bird/russ/kobe/dream area


I really like FrazierKnicks list of

MJ
KAJ
Wilt/Shaq/LeBron
Duncan/Hakeem
Magic/Kobe/Bird

The 3rd line is players with high peaks who dominated physically. Following the skilled big men who had some very impressive titles with less than average championship help and good longevity. Then you get the non centers/physical beasts in the final group (taking a tip off doesn't count). I personally might have Magic and even Duncan up a tier honestly but I do like each tier seeming to "fit" and I tend to favor big men a little in my rankings too (due to defense generally). I have a hard time ranking Russell and do have him 11th but I would probably have to say he is at least in this group as well.


I prefer the tier ranks that you have been doing.

Here is mine right now:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ/LeBron
Shaq/Duncan/Magic
Dream/Bird/Russell
Kobe, Admiral, and Dirk are somewhere between both tiers
Garnett/Malone/Barkley/Oscar/Moses/West/Paul/Stockton

I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

This put him in the second tier, when he was in the third


I love how these discussions pop up constantly and no one ever defines the parameters. Where does he rank in terms of what?! It's like saying, where do bananas rank among foods? It's such a vague question.

Here's a question that can actually be answered...
If you could pick any player of all time to start your franchise, and get them for their entire career, who would be your first, second, third choice, etc.?

I'd probably go

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. David Robinson
6. Hakeem
7. Bird
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. Magic

Everyone who has posted their top 10 has Duncan above Kobe apart from Jerellh and Supreme LA (two well known Kobe lovers).

Even you agreed with DanG's list which had TD at #5 and Kobe at #8?! Very contradicting.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2016, 02:44 PM
I was just going to comment and say this same exact thing... If you know nothing about the coach or roster around, you would go with TD. He's proven what he can do with a lesser roster already and what kind of teammate he is.

furthermore, history has shown building around a great 2-way big man is the best spot to start

Hawkeye15
06-21-2016, 02:46 PM
How did Kobe's Lakers accomplish more? They've both won 5 titles? The Spurs have been a contender every year they've had Tim Duncan. The Lakers were only contenders when Kobe was playing with Shaq or Pau. Is it not glaringly obvious why?

Why is a 3 peat and a back to back more successful than sustained contending and the same amount of championships spread out over 17 years?

Timmy never had a player of Shaq's quality. Hell, he never had a player of Pau's quality whilst he was in his prime (Kawhi is better than Pau now Timmy is over the hill). So I don't know where you're getting this idea that TD had more talent on his teams.

It seems to be consensus among none Laker fans that TD is ranked higher than Kobe all-time.





















Everyone who has posted their top 10 has Duncan above Kobe apart from Jerellh and Supreme LA (two well known Kobe lovers).

Even you agreed with DanG's list which had TD at #5 and Kobe at #8?! Very contradicting.

Because he was the Shaq on his team

Jamiecballer
06-21-2016, 02:52 PM
He's been #2 in my eyes for a while. Was before, was after. I think he might be number 1 in terms of impact but his style of play requires others to execute more than a jordan, kobe, ai.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

L8kers4life
06-21-2016, 03:40 PM
How did Kobe's Lakers accomplish more? They've both won 5 titles? The Spurs have been a contender every year they've had Tim Duncan. The Lakers were only contenders when Kobe was playing with Shaq or Pau. Is it not glaringly obvious why?

Why is a 3 peat and a back to back more successful than sustained contending and the same amount of championships spread out over 17 years?

Timmy never had a player of Shaq's quality. Hell, he never had a player of Pau's quality whilst he was in his prime (Kawhi is better than Pau now Timmy is over the hill). So I don't know where you're getting this idea that TD had more talent on his teams.

It seems to be consensus among none Laker fans that TD is ranked higher than Kobe all-time.





















Everyone who has posted their top 10 has Duncan above Kobe apart from Jerellh and Supreme LA (two well known Kobe lovers).

Even you agreed with DanG's list which had TD at #5 and Kobe at #8?! Very contradicting.

Shaq never won a championship b4 Kobe and Pau was 0-9 in the playoffs. To say Kobe has played with more talent the Duncan is laughable. You stated Timmy won with less, yet Kobe won his 4th and 5th ring with a unproven Pau, hurt Bynum, and LO who was as inconsistent as hell. Jordan farmar, luke walton, sasha, Josh Powell, Adam Morrison, young unproven Ariza and overated DFish, if that is more talent then what the Spurs had, your crazy. Not one of those guys is still in the NBA except Pau and Ariza, Sasha and Farmar were out of the league a few years and just got back to the NBA, 1 of them because of Phil, and the other on 10 day contracts. And all of the guys were drafted years after Kobe.

And in terms of my rankings, I did not see I put Timmy ahead of Kobe, I have Kobe at 6, Duncan at 7 and Shaq at 8.

content://media/external/file/17221

These are the scrubs Kobe won with.

cg_la00
06-21-2016, 03:57 PM
Everyone who has posted their top 10 has Duncan above Kobe apart from Jerellh and Supreme LA (two well known Kobe lovers).

Even you agreed with DanG's list which had TD at #5 and Kobe at #8?! Very contradicting.
I guess u skipped my list but w/e

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-21-2016, 04:12 PM
He still has a long ways to go before being comparable to MJ, but at this point he is on pace to be #2 all time. Maybe you don't have him #2 right now, but he is certainly on pace. He's still only 31 and in his prime. If he retired today he'd be arguably in the top 5, but that's debatable. Still though, he's on pace to be #2 all time. I'll take Lebron in his prime over Magic, Bird, Kobe, or any big man.

Catching MJ will be tough though. MJ set a really high bar. He has an outside chance to make this a valid debate by the end of his career, but I wouldn't say he's on pace to do so.

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 05:26 PM
You can't really go wrong with Duncan or Kobe. My only issue with Duncan has and will always be that he somehow gets way too much credit for their success but doesn't get bashed when he loses. That might have to do with him being a rather quiet individual but it's not fair. Other players have all been subjected to it but Duncan, tbh.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-21-2016, 05:57 PM
Pau Gasols playoff record without Kobe is 6-22. And he missed the playoffs 5 times out of 14 years. Pau was great, but you guys will prop him up as an all time great to knock Kobe

metswon69
06-21-2016, 05:58 PM
Lol better defender? Lebron is actually built for 80s and 90s basketball and that is what people dont understand.. Lebron should have won defensive player of the year in a league where you are no longer allowed to play defense like they did in the 90s... Lebron would have bullied people in the 90s with his size alone... Jordan is a great defender but lebron gets the nudge there... jordan is better but please tell me how Lebron had more talent around him than any of jordans championship years.... Again if you take lebron off of this cavs team they dont make the playoffs.... Jordans bulls won 50 something games without him... Wade/Bosh I can say its closer those years because of the overall core but outside of those 3 seasons its not even close including this year.... Love and kyrie play negative defense... People were ready to drop kyrie before he finally started to play well... TT was destroyed last year for the contract he got because people said he only grabs offensive rebounds....

Ron harper was a 20/6/5 guy
Kerr was as sharp a shooter as there was back then shooting 50 plus percent from 3
Tony Kukuc was a 16/5/5 guy on 50 plus percent shooting

Then you add in guys like Luc longley and the best defensive player in basketball in Rodman and then one of the best players in basketball in pippen

Give me this team over any team not named the warriors any day of the week and twice on Sunday.... Way to much talent. Lebrons heat days were talented no doubt and were up there but not as good as those bulls teams.... This team he just won with isnt even close to that bulls teams and this warriors team is probably a top 5 team ever they went against

So yes Jordan is better and will always be better most likely but its a lot closer now and lebron has never had a team as talented as those bulls teams.

Lebron is the more versatile defender because of his size but Jordan was the better perimeter defender and better defender on and off the ball in his prime. I'm not saying Lebron isn't a great defender but his athleticism also dwarfs many of the guys he plays against and has since he started. That would only been more amplified had he played in the 80s and 90s because the NBA was much different.

Lebron has played with potentially 4 HOFers in his career, whether it was Ray Allen, Chris Bosh (if he stays healthy), Wade, and Kyrie. Jordan played with 2 and not even at the same time for the Bull's first 3 titles. Those Bull's teams were better constructed sure but compare the individual stars Jordan played with compared to Lebron. Even Kevin Love is a better big man than anything MJ played with besides Rodman.

I'm not trying to crap on LBJ but he's not MJ. He's easily the greatest player of this generation (I'm sorry to all the Kobe fans) but like i said Lebron is more Magic Johnson than he is MJ.

metswon69
06-21-2016, 06:05 PM
To be fair, who on those Bulls teams is going to stop Hakeem? Especially with Jordan and Pippen having to focus on Drexler/Horry/Maxwell/Thorpe, etc.

That 95 Rockets team would be insane for the Bulls as a matchup

I know you don't believe this.

I'm absolutely certain Hakeem would have dominated in any series against those Bulls teams but it wouldn't have been enough with Jordan and Pippen shutting down Drexler/Horry/Maxwell/Thorpe/Smith etc. Did you see what the Bulls did to the Drexler lead Trailblazers 3 years earlier? And that was a very good team with a young Clifford Robinson, Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey etc.

Not to mention Barkley dominated that 92-93 finals against the Bulls and all they won was 2 games. That was with 6 guys averaging double figures in points a game for the season.

I have zero doubt those Bull's teams win 8 titles in a row.

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 06:11 PM
Lebron is the more versatile defender because of his size but Jordan was the better perimeter defender and better defender on and off the ball in his prime. I'm not saying Lebron isn't a great defender but his athleticism also dwarfs many of the guys he plays against and has since he started. That would only been more amplified had he played in the 80s and 90s because the NBA was much different.

Lebron has played with potentially 4 HOFers in his career, whether it was Ray Allen, Chris Bosh (if he stays healthy), Wade, and Kyrie. Jordan played with 2 and not even at the same time for the Bull's first 3 titles. Those Bull's teams were better constructed sure but compare the individual stars Jordan played with compared to Lebron. Even Kevin Love is a better big man than anything MJ played with besides Rodman.

I'm not trying to crap on LBJ but he's not MJ. He's easily the greatest player of this generation (I'm sorry to all the Kobe fans) but like i said Lebron is more Magic Johnson than he is MJ.

What kind of nonsense is this? Jordan had the best defensive players on his team. Remember Horace Grant? He had Pippen as well. Then came along Rodman -- another elite perimeter defender. So he had defensive anchors and help along his Bulls team. LeBron never had that. His teammates were never elite defenders of that caliber. It's much easier to defend when you have players on your team you can rely on.

And to say LeBron has potentially played with 4 HOFER's in his career? Are you serious dude? Ray Allen was WAY past his prime when he came to the Heat. That's like saying he played with prime Shaq back at Cleveland... Wade was also past his prime. Chris Bosh was the only dude he played with that was in his prime.. but that didn't matter because what mattered was that:

Jordan had the perfect team assembled to fit his game. He had a PF who can defend at an elite level, doesn't take any possessions away from him so he can ballhog, and was the best rebounder around. He had the greatest wing defender and probably overall in versatility in Scottie Pippen -- who was a better playmaker and much more serviceable than the Wade James had. You're not comparing the same players here. LeBron with Pippen and Rodman is far more imposing than LeBron with Wade and Bosh. Jordan+Wade+Bosh does not win six rings.

kdspurman
06-21-2016, 06:16 PM
You can't really go wrong with Duncan or Kobe. My only issue with Duncan has and will always be that he somehow gets way too much credit for their success but doesn't get bashed when he loses. That might have to do with him being a rather quiet individual but it's not fair. Other players have all been subjected to it but Duncan, tbh.

That's really not Duncans fault though, and you're probably right. It's cause his personality and staying out the limelight and the amount of humility he has.

But also in his best days, how often was did he perform below his standards in the playoffs? He usually raised his play come playoff time

mngopher35
06-21-2016, 06:27 PM
Pau Gasols playoff record without Kobe is 6-22. And he missed the playoffs 5 times out of 14 years. Pau was great, but you guys will prop him up as an all time great to knock Kobe

Read through the thread and see what a lot of it is in response to. Laker fan using Pop, Drob, Parker, Ginobli to do the same thing to Duncan. In 03 none of those players were at the level of Gasol yet Duncan still won so if anything I would say it is even worse to do that for them. Then to use finals/rings as an argument without acknowledging the advantage of prime Shaq takes it even further than just diminishing Duncan due to players around him by ignoring the better situation for the player being defended. Furthermore comparing the old Drob+Pop to prime Shaq (when they still got Phil a few years later) as if it is anywhere near comparable. "If you take Pop away Duncan wins no titles" etc.

I have a post responding to someone that has yet to be addressed (in reference to some of the above) if you want to join the conversation I would love a response. The post is #142. Don't assume people are trying to just to knock Kobe, read some of the reasons mentioned for Kobe in the thread from Laker fans specifically to see where it's coming from. Bringing up Gasol is definitely noteworthy and worth bringing up in comparison to some other stuff said so far by others.

metswon69
06-21-2016, 06:46 PM
What kind of nonsense is this? Jordan had the best defensive players on his team. Remember Horace Grant? He had Pippen as well. Then came along Rodman -- another elite perimeter defender. So he had defensive anchors and help along his Bulls team. LeBron never had that. His teammates were never elite defenders of that caliber. It's much easier to defend when you have players on your team you can rely on.

And to say LeBron has potentially played with 4 HOFER's in his career? Are you serious dude? Ray Allen was WAY past his prime when he came to the Heat. That's like saying he played with prime Shaq back at Cleveland... Wade was also past his prime. Chris Bosh was the only dude he played with that was in his prime.. but that didn't matter because what mattered was that:

Jordan had the perfect team assembled to fit his game. He had a PF who can defend at an elite level, doesn't take any possessions away from him so he can ballhog, and was the best rebounder around. He had the greatest wing defender and probably overall in versatility in Scottie Pippen -- who was a better playmaker and much more serviceable than the Wade James had. You're not comparing the same players here. LeBron with Pippen and Rodman is far more imposing than LeBron with Wade and Bosh. Jordan+Wade+Bosh does not win six rings.

That doesn't take away from Jordan's ability defensively and come on really are we saying Horace Grant is better than Chris Bosh? Lebron didn't have players he could rely on? So they went to 4 straight finals how? Talk about nonsense.

Ray Allen was still an effective player in his time with the Heat. I never said he was in his prime, either but if you want to argue matter of fact statements go ahead, tell me what about that argument is wrong.

Again, those Bulls teams were better constructed as I previously mentioned but Jordan didn't play with the individual talent Lebron has. So 2 guys worth over 20 PER a season are not as good as Rodman and Pippen? Right..

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 07:34 PM
Lebron is the more versatile defender because of his size but Jordan was the better perimeter defender and better defender on and off the ball in his prime. I'm not saying Lebron isn't a great defender but his athleticism also dwarfs many of the guys he plays against and has since he started. That would only been more amplified had he played in the 80s and 90s because the NBA was much different.

Lebron has played with potentially 4 HOFers in his career, whether it was Ray Allen, Chris Bosh (if he stays healthy), Wade, and Kyrie. Jordan played with 2 and not even at the same time for the Bull's first 3 titles. Those Bull's teams were better constructed sure but compare the individual stars Jordan played with compared to Lebron. Even Kevin Love is a better big man than anything MJ played with besides Rodman.

I'm not trying to crap on LBJ but he's not MJ. He's easily the greatest player of this generation (I'm sorry to all the Kobe fans) but like i said Lebron is more Magic Johnson than he is MJ.

That is another thing people seem to not realize when doing these lists.... Johnson should be the guy we are asking if Lebron is better than because of their styles/position... Kobe isnt close to Jordan but they are much of a matchup.... I was watching Mike and Mike this morning and Mike Greeny said something which I 100 percent agree with.... He said He loves lebron and he loves him because nobody has been hated on or scrutinized more ever.... He said he is probably talent wise the best athlete ever but the mind set is what puts Jordan well ahead.... He said if you want to put lebron 2-5 right now he will never argue against it but in his opinion that finals against the mavs is what keeps lebron from Jordan because there was never a series where Jordan wasnt the very best player period.... He said for Lebron actually catch and or surpass jordan he will need 2 more seasons like this past season with 2 more rings and 2 more finals mvps.... I 100 percent agree.

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 07:37 PM
That doesn't take away from Jordan's ability defensively and come on really are we saying Horace Grant is better than Chris Bosh? Lebron didn't have players he could rely on? So they went to 4 straight finals how? Talk about nonsense.

Ray Allen was still an effective player in his time with the Heat. I never said he was in his prime, either but if you want to argue matter of fact statements go ahead, tell me what about that argument is wrong.

Again, those Bulls teams were better constructed as I previously mentioned but Jordan didn't play with the individual talent Lebron has. So 2 guys worth over 20 PER a season are not as good as Rodman and Pippen? Right..

1) Never said it does take away from Jordan's defensive ability but it does make him look better on the defensive end when your teammates are great defensively. Look at the Sixers during AI's run.
2) Stop with the Ray Allen crap. You did say he was in his prime by basically implying that Ray was a HOF'er. Why mention it then? If he didn't play like a HOF'er during those years, then he shouldn't be mentioned as one.
3) It's about fit, buddy. Individual ability doesn't help if it doesn't fit. Just look at Kevin Love for an example.

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 07:37 PM
That's really not Duncans fault though, and you're probably right. It's cause his personality and staying out the limelight and the amount of humility he has.

But also in his best days, how often was did he perform below his standards in the playoffs? He usually raised his play come playoff time

It is also because he never drove anyone out of his team or forced his franchise to make moves or he was leaving or cheated on his wife or played GM much like lebron/kobe/Shaq and so on down the list.

There is no argument for Kobe ahead of duncan. Duncan right now to me is on par with james and behind only shaq/magic/Jordan and maybe one other..

metswon69
06-21-2016, 09:27 PM
2) Stop with the Ray Allen crap. You did say he was in his prime by basically implying that Ray was a HOF'er. Why mention it then? If he didn't play like a HOF'er during those years, then he shouldn't be mentioned as one.


Is Ray Allen a Hofer or not?

Check your reading comprehension, man. I never said he was in his prime or inferred as such.

WaDe03
06-21-2016, 11:29 PM
Wade
Jordan
KAJ
LeBron
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt
Duncan
Magic
Bird

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-22-2016, 12:10 AM
Kobe was not however the one demanding the defensive attention at that time like Timmy in his prime. Timmy was the main impact on both ends for those teams in their prime while Kobe had the luxury of playing off of peak Shaq. I do agree Kobe was a main part of those teams and he was a very good 1v1 defender when he was younger. If you think all those defensive awards were deserved based on his actual play/impact even later in his career then we can just agree to disagree on that part now.


At your request I will give feed back on this post. First of all, your assertion that Kobe was not demanding defensive attention was true for only one year of their championship runs. That would be the 99/00 season. Kobe was 20 years old and not good enough to demand the type of attention that he later would. But going forward, to say Kobe was not demanding defensive attention is asinine. Does Westbrook not demand defensive attention? Does Kyrie not demand defensive attention? Did Kareem not demand defensive attention? Kobe was more important to Shaq than these guys were to their 1a stars. Look at those Laker rosters. I think the only guy to post above average VORP was Horry for a whopping 1.2 value. Those teams were two guys who dominated deeper teams. Kobe was the focus on the perimeter and Shaq was the focus on the block. Do you think that the Spurs saw Kobe with the ball at the top of the key and just said "oh cool, we can relax?" And Kobe was not just a good defender. He was the defensive stopper for whatever wing player the opponent had. Who else on those teams took on those defensive assignments? After he turned 30 he did win a couple of undeserved awards off reputation. But he had earned that reputation earlier in his career.



Timmy has more rebounds, blocks, much greater impact defensively, less missed field goal attempts, higher PER, WS/48, BPM (all both RS and post season), more of the major awards that tend to separate all time greats from others (MVP/FMVP), I can go on for days too.

I cant see the post you quoted so I have to assume he sited Kobe with more assist, steals, points etc... Because otherwise it would be silly to point out a big man having more rebounds, blocks and impact defensively. Like duh. Other than that MVPs are subjective. I seen a post listing Kobe numbers vs the guys who won the MVP for four different seasons and its needless to say, Kobe was not a media favorite. If Kobe put up those numbers in some Podunk town and was seen as a nice guy, he would have at least 4 MVP's. But playing on the Lakers in LA while having an F you attitude is not a feel good story like Steve Nash winning while putting up 15, 3, and 11 while Kobe put up 35, 6, and 5. Same thing the next year for Nash. Once with Dirk putting up 24, 8, and 3 to Kobe's 31, 6, and 5. And once even for Duncan who did 23, 12, and 3 and Kobe getting 30, 7, and 6. Three years Kobe put up those numbers while playing elite defense. Duncan was the only one out of those four years that had even heard the word defense. And finally, finals MVP says what exactly? Is Iggy moving up on any list with that? How about Kawhii? How about if the Warriors won this year, Steph wasn't getting it so who out of all those guys gets knocked up a couple notches because they played well in 4 games? Is Cornbread Maxwell touting his finals MVP over Bird, McHale and Parish? If they had playoffs MVP, Kobe might have a couple of those over Shaq.

I agree that Kobe is an all time great and has some arguments for him it's just that to me given the stats/awards/defense I just see it all favoring Timmy. Kobe will have volume for sure and his scoring is better than Duncan but I would give up the 5? ppg he adds to get the playmaking/ball movement Duncan was able to generally create in his prime due to shifting the defense. Duncan and Kobe were pretty close on their scoring efficiency so the extra few ppg to me while nice and indicating his talent isn't a major gap/sign that Duncan wasn't capable to me. More just that they had different styles/offenses. I see a bigger gap between them on the defensive end for sure

I agree with this. Kobe has a slight edge offensively while Duncan has more impact on defense by sheer position. So if Duncans position as a big means placing him over a similar offensive player, do you do that for Kareem as well over Jordan? Kareems defensive impact was far greater than Jordans according the their positions and stats. Far greater than the slight offensive advantage Jordan had. Also, do you think Lamarcus Aldridge is a good defender? Because I never thought he was. His Drtg proved that he wasnt while he was in Portland. But all of a sudden he shows up on the Spurs and his defensive rating goes from an average of 107 down to 99. All that at age 30. Is he getting better defensively as he gets older? Or is it that the Spurs system makes all their bigs look like defensive monsters. Duncans defensive rating has not changed since he was in his prime even at his old age. It doenst get better or worse. Do you think he is as good as a defender now than he was in his prime? Watching his slow feet move around tells me absolutely not. Does he have the same defensive impact on a team that doesn't emphasize defense like Pop does? Carlos Boozer has a better career drtg over Chris Paul. Is Boozer a better defender than Paul?


Kobe has one more season in the NBA and has played like 700ish more total minutes. You can talk about all the coaches Kobe has had but he had Phil all but like 1 or 2 years in his prime when he was competing (2 if you count 2012 with Brown). The other coach was for one season where Kobe played like 60 and they missed the playoffs I'm pretty sure. Again though I do agree he carried more during the later part of his career, just like Duncan carried more earlier on in his career. Duncan getting his minutes managed was a luxury though that is true.

I'm not sure what you were responding to so Ill just stay out of that argument.


Kobe had Phil almost every year he had a truly competitive team, you are making the coaching thing out to be something it isn't it seems. While I agree Duncan had good supporting casts he did not walk into a situation where he got to be a secondary offensive force to the player with arguably the best peak ever for an 8 year stretch (3 rings at least arguably another appearance depending on how you see 04). You can't pretend like that isn't a bigger advantage than pretty much anyone else has had (maybe Magic/Kareem and that group or Russell but not from this era). Kobe has been to 3 (or 4) finals and won 2 as the man. IMO Duncan has been to and won 4 as the main guy (despite Parkers FMVP in that blow out we know Duncan was the best on that team). Duncan did have a longer time period for this though. I know this makes some people angry and I am not just trying to jab at Kobe here but if you want to start talking about finals/rings for individuals then you need to at least separate the best player who is the main reason for it or else it isn't comparable. Kobe was a great player then don't get me wrong but having the defensive attention/focus and pressure on you it's different and if we narrow down team success to individuals we have to give the credit to the main one. Just like the later ring wasn't as big of a deal as the early ones for Duncan either so I didn't count that one.

Once again, I don't know what you guys were arguing about. But I will reiterate, Kobe as a back up player was true for one year. After that Kobe was just as important. Shaq played 7 seasons as the main guy with an assortment of other good players and never won anything. It just so happened that he started winning when Kobe became ripe of age.


Again despite all this help you mention we seem to agree Duncan was the one who ended up with the "heaviest load to carry" in 2003 between them due to lack of help comparatively. Both of these players had a lot of help but I really don't see an argument against Duncan here after Kobe had prime Shaq for 8 years. Kobe did have a lack of help at his peak though. He certainly could have had more success leading a team if he had that, this is why counting rings/finals doesn't make sense to me. So many variables go into outside of individuals play.

Kobe did not have Shaq for 8 years. They played on the same team for 8 years. But Kobe was not a player who was ready to start winning rings as a main player until 00/01. Like I said, Kobe was a very good role player for Shaq in 99/00. I only look at the 00/01 season for Kobe to start judging who he played with and what his role was. In my opinion he only played with Shaq for 4 seasons as a player worthy of debating his legacy. It didn't matter who was on an 18, 19, 20 year old Kobe team. He was not the type of player that was going to push you over the top as a driving force. It started at the age of 20 but he would not have won anything with anyone else except Shaq at his best season. Kobe had 13 years where he was not too young or too old riddled by injuries as an elite player. He played with Shaq for 4 of those years and won 2 of three rings. Went through a rebuilding period of 3 years after they traded 32 year old Shaq. Then played from 07/08 through 12/13 with teams capable of winning something and won another 2 out of 3. He played with 10 teams in his prime that were ready to win with him as a big time player. He won four of 6 chances. I will concede that Kobe was a role player for one ring. But he is no different from Magic, or Kareem, or Kareem and Big O, or Shaq and Wade, or if the Thunder ever win Durant and Westbrook. You look at those teams and see those two players as the reason those teams won and you could make an argument for both of them being equally important to their teams success. Kobe was not some B player that was interchangeable with other B players.



I agree Kobe has more fans/popularity if that is what you are getting at and I agree about Lebron. If we are talking basketball impact and ranking these guys off that I still gotta put Duncan over Kobe though.

Ill put it like this. If I was the owner of a team that played in front of no fans, didn't care about how it looked, and it was only about winning, I would go with Duncan. He is a solid person, a great teammate, selfless, and boring as all hell.

If I wanted to be entertained, thrilled, sell tickets, have moments to tell my grand children about, get big tv deals, sell sneakers, jerseys, expand my teams brand all over the world and invade the China market especially, and win just as much, I pick Kobe 100 out of 100 times.

As a computer with no human emotion, I would rate Duncan over Kobe. But there is a difference between better career and greater career. Duncan was better than Kobe. Kobe was greater than Duncan. Floyd Mayweathers resume is better than Ali's. But to me, Ali was the greater fighter.

mngopher35
06-22-2016, 02:32 AM
At your request I will give feed back on this post. First of all, your assertion that Kobe was not demanding defensive attention was true for only one year of their championship runs. That would be the 99/00 season. Kobe was 20 years old and not good enough to demand the type of attention that he later would. But going forward, to say Kobe was not demanding defensive attention is asinine. Does Westbrook not demand defensive attention? Does Kyrie not demand defensive attention? Did Kareem not demand defensive attention? Kobe was more important to Shaq than these guys were to their 1a stars. Look at those Laker rosters. I think the only guy to post above average VORP was Horry for a whopping 1.2 value. Those teams were two guys who dominated deeper teams. Kobe was the focus on the perimeter and Shaq was the focus on the block. Do you think that the Spurs saw Kobe with the ball at the top of the key and just said "oh cool, we can relax?" And Kobe was not just a good defender. He was the defensive stopper for whatever wing player the opponent had. Who else on those teams took on those defensive assignments? After he turned 30 he did win a couple of undeserved awards off reputation. But he had earned that reputation earlier in his career.

Every player demands attention, some more than others you completely miss the point here. My point is Shaq was influencing defenses to a far greater degree than Kobe at that point in time and was the driving force for the team over their titles together. I don't know how anyone can deny that and it is a very important distinction when we are talking rings and finals appearances which was what he brought up. Teams did not concentrate their help defense on Kobe nearly as often as they did Shaq he took far more doubles and attention away from other players. We can argue this point more if you disagree or agree to disagree on this or even make a thread with a poll because I really don't think the attention garnered was very close. Shaq was arguably one of the greatest forces the league has seen inside the lane which took more than just one person to stop regularly (like at a goat level at his peak in this are imo). Kobe just was not there yet in his game, he benefited far more from that than Shaq did from the attention he garnered.

Yes people you named deserve attention too, almost all players do but not to the same degree.
The thing is when you mention a player like Irving that is exactly the point I am getting at with Kobe those years. His post season run this year was probably better statistically than all but the 01 year for Kobe through his first 6 years or so (aka by end of 2002 with 3 rings) and it got him into the top 5 pg conversation at the moment it seems (so not even top 10 player in the league to most probably). You could throw in Wade from the Heat teams. If we want to discuss who deserves more credit between them that is totally fine and I agree Kobe was one of the best second options ever when he was next to Shaq. The thing is no one remembers those as Irvings titles or Wades titles propelling them into all time greatness conversation, they are Lebrons as he was the dominating force behind it and receives more of the credit in the end for being so. Same with many other second options in the history of the game.

Again this is not to bash Kobe but when someone starts going RINGZ you gotta bring context and not being that main option is very important when the other guy was for more of them. I was simply pointing that out since it is completely ignored when someone says "well he has been to x finals and won x times". When you mention Pippen's rings compared to Kobe to try and show people how poor that method is you get the "but he never lead the team" type of responses. Well neither did Kobe in those seasons which is a distinction that should be noted.

Agree on the defensive part mostly and that was my main point. Again he used defensive teams as an award in favor of Kobe and I was pointing out the context behind it.




I cant see the post you quoted so I have to assume he sited Kobe with more assist, steals, points etc... Because otherwise it would be silly to point out a big man having more rebounds, blocks and impact defensively. Like duh. Other than that MVPs are subjective. I seen a post listing Kobe numbers vs the guys who won the MVP for four different seasons and its needless to say, Kobe was not a media favorite. If Kobe put up those numbers in some Podunk town and was seen as a nice guy, he would have at least 4 MVP's. But playing on the Lakers in LA while having an F you attitude is not a feel good story like Steve Nash winning while putting up 15, 3, and 11 while Kobe put up 35, 6, and 5. Same thing the next year for Nash. Once with Dirk putting up 24, 8, and 3 to Kobe's 31, 6, and 5. And once even for Duncan who did 23, 12, and 3 and Kobe getting 30, 7, and 6. Three years Kobe put up those numbers while playing elite defense. Duncan was the only one out of those four years that had even heard the word defense. And finally, finals MVP says what exactly? Is Iggy moving up on any list with that? How about Kawhii? How about if the Warriors won this year, Steph wasn't getting it so who out of all those guys gets knocked up a couple notches because they played well in 4 games? Is Cornbread Maxwell touting his finals MVP over Bird, McHale and Parish? If they had playoffs MVP, Kobe might have a couple of those over Shaq.

Lol yes that was in response to the same type of stuff. For the MVP's I don't think it was media hate at all it's just that Kobe was in a weird spot where he had help for championships most his career but at his peak didn't have good enough teams to be in the running for MVP. I brought that up initially when someone claimed Kobe is more accomplished but I do agree context shows Kobe had a tougher path to MVP's due to that imo.

Again FMVP was also used when comparing who is more accomplished. While I agree these awards are not the best/only indicators they are certainly the best at separating all time greats through history. Context is needed because what is more important than the award is being the main force behind it but in this case that favors Duncan. IMO Duncan was the best player for 4 of his championships while Kobe fairly has his 2 FMVP for when he lead the team. Every player in the top 10 who played his entire career with the opportunity to get this award has at least 2 of them and an MVP. Like I said these are not the end of the story but when talking about who is most accomplished these are the best awards out there to separate greats.


I agree with this. Kobe has a slight edge offensively while Duncan has more impact on defense by sheer position. So if Duncans position as a big means placing him over a similar offensive player, do you do that for Kareem as well over Jordan? Kareems defensive impact was far greater than Jordans according the their positions and stats. Far greater than the slight offensive advantage Jordan had. Also, do you think Lamarcus Aldridge is a good defender? Because I never thought he was. His Drtg proved that he wasnt while he was in Portland. But all of a sudden he shows up on the Spurs and his defensive rating goes from an average of 107 down to 99. All that at age 30. Is he getting better defensively as he gets older? Or is it that the Spurs system makes all their bigs look like defensive monsters. Duncans defensive rating has not changed since he was in his prime even at his old age. It doenst get better or worse. Do you think he is as good as a defender now than he was in his prime? Watching his slow feet move around tells me absolutely not. Does he have the same defensive impact on a team that doesn't emphasize defense like Pop does? Carlos Boozer has a better career drtg over Chris Paul. Is Boozer a better defender than Paul?

No I have Kareem 2nd behind Jordan though. We can discuss that more but there are many reasons why the comparison between them would be somewhat different than Duncan/Kobe although I do not consider Jordan untouchable and have had conversations about the two. I will admit that I generally do have big men higher on my rankings due to defense overall though than some people. Duncan is one of the best team players on both ends I have ever seen and that ability to take over games on either end in his prime especially is probably an important factor for me in comparison to Kobe who I think tended to be overrated on that end by the time his offense was in peak form.

The Spurs still have some good defenders like Kawhi, teams defense definitely affects DRTG. I don't use stats as often to judge defense because they generally seem bad and DRTG is horrible to compare big men/wings on different teams. However in the same way a team can help a player like Aldridge is the same way Duncan was the force (like Kawhi now) helping his team have a great DRTG year in and year out. If any player has been snubbed for an award between these two it is Duncan not getting a DPOY imo. So I think maybe we judge defense differently or something because I never brought up DRTG or anything, just going of my eyes/opinion. I assume we differ a little bit on Kobe on that end but even if we do I think it is quite clear Duncan (even if due to size) was far more impactful due to being able to consistently anchor top defenses. The system helped but when he was on his downward trend and before they got Kawhi they were no longer sporting top defenses each year anymore so I think while the system helps it takes an elite defender like Duncan to make it top of the league so consistently.




I'm not sure what you were responding to so Ill just stay out of that argument.

He brought up longevity which to me isn't a big difference at all so I just tried to explain.




Once again, I don't know what you guys were arguing about. But I will reiterate, Kobe as a back up player was true for one year. After that Kobe was just as important. Shaq played 7 seasons as the main guy with an assortment of other good players and never won anything. It just so happened that he started winning when Kobe became ripe of age.

He was not just as important as Shaq, there is no way. Yes he was a key contributor but again this was prime Shaq and younger Kobe we are talking about their impact just was not the same and it is important when rings are being mentioned. In this case Kobe wasn't as good as Shaq so it is not comparable to another person leading a team to a title as the man. Just like it wasn't considered that for Irving this year.

I want to be clear that I am in no way calling him a backup though. He was one of the better second options out there in history (especially 01) but again that is a distinction we make especially when talking rings. He was not the driving force or leader of team is all I am trying to distinguish. Duncan was for 4 of his rings and based on the conversation with the other guy it deserved mentioning given finals appearances/rings being used as a difference.


Kobe did not have Shaq for 8 years. They played on the same team for 8 years. But Kobe was not a player who was ready to start winning rings as a main player until 00/01. Like I said, Kobe was a very good role player for Shaq in 99/00. I only look at the 00/01 season for Kobe to start judging who he played with and what his role was. In my opinion he only played with Shaq for 4 seasons as a player worthy of debating his legacy. It didn't matter who was on an 18, 19, 20 year old Kobe team. He was not the type of player that was going to push you over the top as a driving force. It started at the age of 20 but he would not have won anything with anyone else except Shaq at his best season. Kobe had 13 years where he was not too young or too old riddled by injuries as an elite player. He played with Shaq for 4 of those years and won 2 of three rings. Went through a rebuilding period of 3 years after they traded 32 year old Shaq. Then played from 07/08 through 12/13 with teams capable of winning something and won another 2 out of 3. He played with 10 teams in his prime that were ready to win with him as a big time player. He won four of 6 chances. I will concede that Kobe was a role player for one ring. But he is no different from Magic, or Kareem, or Kareem and Big O, or Shaq and Wade, or if the Thunder ever win Durant and Westbrook. You look at those teams and see those two players as the reason those teams won and you could make an argument for both of them being equally important to their teams success. Kobe was not some B player that was interchangeable with other B players.

If Duncan came into the league as raw as Kobe he would have less rings too, doesn't take away from the help that was there for him though. Kobe had Shaq the first 8 years of his career is all I meant by that, not during his prime/peak for the whole thing (actually is kinda my point earlier on lol). If we look from 01 on then everything that guy was arguing about rings is out the window anyways.

I don't think Kobe just became a great player in 01 out of no where, he worked up to that point and continued growing even past that. This is what I mean about Shaq/Kobe in those years though because Kobe was still growing even when Shaq was on his way out of LA, he hadn't even peaked yet while Shaq was at his. I agree he really shined in 01 to become that great level player but even then it was still just part of his continued growth he wasn't even at peak form yet.


Ill put it like this. If I was the owner of a team that played in front of no fans, didn't care about how it looked, and it was only about winning, I would go with Duncan. He is a solid person, a great teammate, selfless, and boring as all hell.

If I wanted to be entertained, thrilled, sell tickets, have moments to tell my grand children about, get big tv deals, sell sneakers, jerseys, expand my teams brand all over the world and invade the China market especially, and win just as much, I pick Kobe 100 out of 100 times.

As a computer with no human emotion, I would rate Duncan over Kobe. But there is a difference between better career and greater career. Duncan was better than Kobe. Kobe was greater than Duncan. Floyd Mayweathers resume is better than Ali's. But to me, Ali was the greater fighter.

I rank players based on their level of play, I am in it to win not for the fun haha. I do agree Kobe is more exciting and sells more tickets etc. When I rank it is based on the impact and like you said who would I take for winning. We differ on that point so I can see why it changes our lists some especially here with boring old Duncan. I mostly responded because people were calling out the idea of Duncan being ahead when I see a very good case for that based on the things mentioned outside of this part which holds little value to me personally.

Thanks for taking the time to respond though. It seems like some of the arguments you have issue with kind of have to do with points you never made though so that is kinda odd for you to argue (not sure if you agree with his points or not). That post and a few that followed are why people bring up the help Kobe has had though (I think the post I responded to before that one went more in depth on coaching/players surrounding Duncan). I just quoted your first post to say people weren't just bashing Kobe by bringing Gasol up it was in response to other posters doing similar things to Timmy to show it goes both ways.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-22-2016, 03:11 AM
Every player demands attention, some more than others you completely miss the point here. My point is Shaq was influencing defenses to a far greater degree than Kobe at that point in time and was the driving force for the team over their titles together. I don't know how anyone can deny that and it is a very important distinction when we are talking rings and finals appearances which was what he brought up. Teams did not concentrate their help defense on Kobe nearly as often as they did Shaq he took far more doubles and attention away from other players. We can argue this point more if you disagree or agree to disagree on this or even make a thread with a poll because I really don't think the attention garnered was very close. Shaq was arguably one of the greatest forces the league has seen inside the lane which took more than just one person to stop regularly (like at a goat level at his peak in this are imo). Kobe just was not there yet in his game, he benefited far more from that than Shaq did from the attention he garnered.

Yes people you named deserve attention too, almost all players do but not to the same degree.
The thing is when you mention a player like Irving that is exactly the point I am getting at with Kobe those years. His post season run this year was probably better statistically than all but the 01 year for Kobe through his first 6 years or so (aka by end of 2002 with 3 rings) and it got him into the top 5 pg conversation at the moment it seems (so not even top 10 player in the league to most probably). You could throw in Wade from the Heat teams. If we want to discuss who deserves more credit between them that is totally fine and I agree Kobe was one of the best second options ever when he was next to Shaq. The thing is no one remembers those as Irvings titles or Wades titles propelling them into all time greatness conversation, they are Lebrons as he was the dominating force behind it and receives more of the credit in the end for being so. Same with many other second options in the history of the game.

Again this is not to bash Kobe but when someone starts going RINGZ you gotta bring context and not being that main option is very important when the other guy was for more of them. I was simply pointing that out since it is completely ignored when someone says "well he has been to x finals and won x times". When you mention Pippen's rings compared to Kobe to try and show people how poor that method is you get the "but he never lead the team" type of responses. Well neither did Kobe in those seasons which is a distinction that should be noted.

Agree on the defensive part mostly and that was my main point. Again he used defensive teams as an award in favor of Kobe and I was pointing out the context behind it.





Lol yes that was in response to the same type of stuff. For the MVP's I don't think it was media hate at all it's just that Kobe was in a weird spot where he had help for championships most his career but at his peak didn't have good enough teams to be in the running for MVP. I brought that up initially when someone claimed Kobe is more accomplished but I do agree context shows Kobe had a tougher path to MVP's due to that imo.

Again FMVP was also used when comparing who is more accomplished. While I agree these awards are not the best/only indicators they are certainly the best at separating all time greats through history. Context is needed because what is more important than the award is being the main force behind it but in this case that favors Duncan. IMO Duncan was the best player for 4 of his championships while Kobe fairly has his 2 FMVP for when he lead the team. Every player in the top 10 who played his entire career with the opportunity to get this award has at least 2 of them and an MVP. Like I said these are not the end of the story but when talking about who is most accomplished these are the best awards out there to separate greats.



No I have Kareem 2nd behind Jordan though. We can discuss that more but there are many reasons why the comparison between them would be somewhat different than Duncan/Kobe although I do not consider Jordan untouchable and have had conversations about the two. I will admit that I generally do have big men higher on my rankings due to defense overall though than some people. Duncan is one of the best team players on both ends I have ever seen and that ability to take over games on either end in his prime especially is probably an important factor for me in comparison to Kobe who I think tended to be overrated on that end by the time his offense was in peak form.

The Spurs still have some good defenders like Kawhi, teams defense definitely affects DRTG. I don't use stats as often to judge defense because they generally seem bad and DRTG is horrible to compare big men/wings on different teams. However in the same way a team can help a player like Aldridge is the same way Duncan was the force (like Kawhi now) helping his team have a great DRTG year in and year out. If any player has been snubbed for an award between these two it is Duncan not getting a DPOY imo. So I think maybe we judge defense differently or something because I never brought up DRTG or anything, just going of my eyes/opinion. I assume we differ a little bit on Kobe on that end but even if we do I think it is quite clear Duncan (even if due to size) was far more impactful due to being able to consistently anchor top defenses. The system helped but when he was on his downward trend and before they got Kawhi they were no longer sporting top defenses each year anymore so I think while the system helps it takes an elite defender like Duncan to make it top of the league so consistently.




He brought up longevity which to me isn't a big difference at all so I just tried to explain.




He was not just as important as Shaq, there is no way. Yes he was a key contributor but again this was prime Shaq and younger Kobe we are talking about their impact just was not the same and it is important when rings are being mentioned. In this case Kobe wasn't as good as Shaq so it is not comparable to another person leading a team to a title as the man. Just like it wasn't considered that for Irving this year.

I want to be clear that I am in no way calling him a backup though. He was one of the better second options out there in history (especially 01) but again that is a distinction we make especially when talking rings. He was not the driving force or leader of team is all I am trying to distinguish. Duncan was for 4 of his rings and based on the conversation with the other guy it deserved mentioning given finals appearances/rings being used as a difference.



If Duncan came into the league as raw as Kobe he would have less rings too, doesn't take away from the help that was there for him though. Kobe had Shaq the first 8 years of his career is all I meant by that, not during his prime/peak for the whole thing (actually is kinda my point earlier on lol). If we look from 01 on then everything that guy was arguing about rings is out the window anyways.

I don't think Kobe just became a great player in 01 out of no where, he worked up to that point and continued growing even past that. This is what I mean about Shaq/Kobe in those years though because Kobe was still growing even when Shaq was on his way out of LA, he hadn't even peaked yet while Shaq was at his. I agree he really shined in 01 to become that great level player but even then it was still just part of his continued growth he wasn't even at peak form yet.



I rank players based on their level of play, I am in it to win not for the fun haha. I do agree Kobe is more exciting and sells more tickets etc. When I rank it is based on the impact and like you said who would I take for winning. We differ on that point so I can see why it changes our lists some especially here with boring old Duncan. I mostly responded because people were calling out the idea of Duncan being ahead when I see a very good case for that based on the things mentioned outside of this part which holds little value to me personally.

Thanks for taking the time to respond though. It seems like some of the arguments you have issue with kind of have to do with points you never made though so that is kinda odd for you to argue (not sure if you agree with his points or not). That post and a few that followed are why people bring up the help Kobe has had though (I think the post I responded to before that one went more in depth on coaching/players surrounding Duncan). I just quoted your first post to say people weren't just bashing Kobe by bringing Gasol up it was in response to other posters doing similar things to Timmy to show it goes both ways.

Got it. I actually always list Duncan over Kobe in my rankings. I just like the debates. I have always noticed you are pretty fair so i appreciate the convo.

I will say this though. Kobe is always having his rings taken away while I rarely see that with other top 10 players. I see Kareem ranked number 2 even though 5 of his rings came from ages 32 through 40 with another top 10 guy in Magic. Kareem was very diminished by the time he got 3 of those rings. Magic gets full credit for 5 even though he played with Kareem and Worthy. Shaq gets full credit for four rings even though the one he won at 34 with Wade carrying him. Duncan gets full credit for 5 even though he didnt have much of an impact in his last one at 37. But somehow a prime Kobe playing better than some "number ones" during their runs to a ring is called a number 2 like hes was a Pippen, Irving, Worthy, Mchale, Dumars, when he showed then and after he was so much more.

If 20, 21, 22, year old Lebron played with 27 year old prime Shaq, Lebron would be a number 2? Would you discount any rings he won?

If its that way, I guess Kobes first season in the league where he had a chance to prove anything was in his age 25 year. You start declining at age 30 so he only had 5 seasons at peak to be able to do something. 3 of those years were absolutely thrown away. If people are going to view it that way, he would have been better off being drafted by the Wolves. Kobe would have been built around from his age 18 season and had a championship ready squad by the time he was 22. Kg would have been a perfect number 2 and Kobe would be given full credit his entire career as opposed to just throwing 8 years of his physical peak away.

mngopher35
06-22-2016, 03:37 AM
Got it. I actually always list Duncan over Kobe in my rankings. I just like the debates. I have always noticed you are pretty fair so i appreciate the convo.

Thanks and I think you are as well. I totally agree about the debates or even just talking back and forth a bit. I like basketball discussion and if you actually pay attention to the conversations even if you don't agree with another persons view they might teach/show/explain/bring up something you never knew. Happens a lot for me even with posters considered trolls by some (amos comes to mind as an old example, sometimes he had different but interesting thoughts/posts mixed in with the trolling).

I have taken stances I'm not even sure I agree with before just for the discussion.


I will say this though. Kobe is always having his rings taken away while I rarely see that with other top 10 players. I see Kareem ranked number 2 even though 5 of his rings came from ages 32 through 40 with another top 10 guy in Magic. Kareem was very diminished by the time he got 3 of those rings. Magic gets full credit for 5 even though he played with Kareem and Worthy. Shaq gets full credit for four rings even though the one he won at 34 with Wade carrying him. Duncan gets full credit for 5 even though he didnt have much of an impact in his last one at 37. But somehow a prime Kobe playing better than some "number ones" during their runs to a ring is called a number 2 like hes was a Pippen, Irving, Worthy, Mchale, Dumars, when he showed then and after he was so much more.

I think part of it is how often rings get brought up as an advantage for Kobe. Many times I think people are just making a counterpoint giving context. Some just do it do downgrade Kobe though I do agree that has happened on here haha.

I don't like to use just counting rings as a main point ever. If I had a conversation where I argued say Bird>Shaq (I don't believe this) and the other guy was only bringing up rings as reasoning for Shaq you better believe I would mention Wade/Miami. I actually have been giving Duncan for credit for 4 in those discussions too not 5. I do get your point though and I do agree sometimes it is likely hate. I think a lot of times it is also just a response to arguments already being made which is why I called out your post. Lets call people out when it really is trolling/deserved not actual discussion points.


If 20, 21, 22, year old Lebron played with 27 year old prime Shaq, Lebron would be a number 2? Would you discount any rings he won?

They wouldn't be as valuable as the 3 he recently won to me. I don't know about discounting but I would consider them Shaq's rings more I guess in that scenario (assuming what we would expect happened on their way to wins).


If its that way, I guess Kobes first season in the league where he had a chance to prove anything was in his age 25 year. You start declining at age 30 so he only had 5 seasons at peak to be able to do something. 3 of those years were absolutely thrown away. If people are going to view it that way, he would have been better off being drafted by the Wolves. Kobe would have been built around from his age 18 season and had a championship ready squad by the time he was 22. Kg would have been a perfect number 2 and Kobe would be given full credit his entire career as opposed to just throwing 8 years of his physical peak away.

Lol I think that woulda been better...

I think there are some fair points in what you are saying about Kobe having less time to prove himself as the man but he also had the benefit of Shaq for 8 years to make up for that. Pretty good trade off for him. Again though my point has been in discussion for rings people give the most credit to the best player and it was Shaq. You can't compare winning a ring as a secondary option to doing it as a first IMO it is different and it is usually treated that way by most people so it has to be brought up as a counterpoint.

Kobe was in a great spot for rings and a bad spot for MVP's imo. You could argue good for FMVP too but when it comes to actually being the best player on a championship team he did have a smaller window to do so because of Shaq/aftermath.

Lakers + Giants
06-22-2016, 03:43 AM
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron

Tony_Starks
06-22-2016, 09:09 AM
Had him 7, moves to 6.

May likely get to 5 but I'm skeptical as to how his game will mature with age.


1. Magic
2. MJ
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Kobe
6. Lebron
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

raiderfaninTX
06-22-2016, 09:37 AM
My two cents: Lebron is top 5 Kobe is somewhere between 5 and 10

Kobe: had the mindset of Jordan
Lebron: is equal to or better than Jordan on a skills level

Need them both to equal Jordan's greatness

What Lebron did the last three games, Jordan did his entire career. I wish younger fans remembered or had seen what that was like

Miltstar
06-22-2016, 09:59 AM
To me the championship is tainted by him influencing the league to suspend Draymond game 5. I think the Warriors win in 5 if Dre played.

WaDe03
06-22-2016, 10:07 AM
I like Kobe a lot but at this point if you have him ranked above LeBron you're a Lakers fan. Nothing wrong with being a little biased but the for sure answer is LeBron.

Jewelz0376
06-22-2016, 10:45 AM
The thing for me when comparing Kobe with Duncan is because he's a big men have so much more impact on a team. A elite defensive big man can transform a defense unlike an elite wind defender can. That alone allows Duncan to carry inferior talent further than Kobe. Plus Kobes strongest argument in all time rankings is his longevity, which Duncan def has as well. In part because losing your athleticism with age has a much bigger effect on wings than bigs.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 11:26 AM
Is Ray Allen a Hofer or not?

Check your reading comprehension, man. I never said he was in his prime or inferred as such.

Actually, you're just trying to word it in a way that makes it seem as if LeBron had an elite Ray Allen. There was no point in mentioning that. Ray Allen did not play like a HOF'er during the time he was in Miami so to say "LeBron played with a HOF'er in Ray Allen" is some really irrelevant argument.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2016, 11:54 AM
Got it. I actually always list Duncan over Kobe in my rankings. I just like the debates. I have always noticed you are pretty fair so i appreciate the convo.

I will say this though. Kobe is always having his rings taken away while I rarely see that with other top 10 players. I see Kareem ranked number 2 even though 5 of his rings came from ages 32 through 40 with another top 10 guy in Magic. Kareem was very diminished by the time he got 3 of those rings. Magic gets full credit for 5 even though he played with Kareem and Worthy. Shaq gets full credit for four rings even though the one he won at 34 with Wade carrying him. Duncan gets full credit for 5 even though he didnt have much of an impact in his last one at 37. But somehow a prime Kobe playing better than some "number ones" during their runs to a ring is called a number 2 like hes was a Pippen, Irving, Worthy, Mchale, Dumars, when he showed then and after he was so much more.

If 20, 21, 22, year old Lebron played with 27 year old prime Shaq, Lebron would be a number 2? Would you discount any rings he won?

If its that way, I guess Kobes first season in the league where he had a chance to prove anything was in his age 25 year. You start declining at age 30 so he only had 5 seasons at peak to be able to do something. 3 of those years were absolutely thrown away. If people are going to view it that way, he would have been better off being drafted by the Wolves. Kobe would have been built around from his age 18 season and had a championship ready squad by the time he was 22. Kg would have been a perfect number 2 and Kobe would be given full credit his entire career as opposed to just throwing 8 years of his physical peak away.

Then don't bother debating someone who does that. Kobe winning 3 rings as the second best player on his team doesn't lessen the importance of those rings to his legacy at all. A lot of all timers weren't the best player on their championship teams every time.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 12:58 PM
When evaluating players you have to look at their strengths and struggles. So lets evaluate James game without getting caught up in the emotion.

James likes to drive the lane almost 80% of the time and finish over smaller players. James is 6'8 almost 6'9 250 pounds of all muscle. He's fast so he can even get by guards a lot of the time on the perimeter. He starts his drives on the perimeter in hopes the lane will be empty.

Now lets look at what he has stuggled against during his career. He struggles against Centers. One can see this by the facts. He's lost to Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan twice (almost three times probably should've been, and one time was an all time lose largest defeat in Finals history) Then he also lost to the big physical team of the Mavericks in 2011 with Chandler, Dirk, Haywood, Mahinmi, and Marion.

So that is a record of like 1-6 vs teams led by a 7 footer. I'm not going to say why he struggles more than most agaisnt 7 footers. I'll leave that to the reader.

Malone struggled against great 7 footers aswell back in his day.


So we can't put James over the best centers of all time. If someone does that they are not judging the game correctly.

Even Collin Cowherd knows this that is why yesterday he was just trying to make a different list for centers. That's becasue he thinks centers have too much of an advantage. However, one can't do that and exclude great centers. That's like making an all time NFL list without QB's.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 12:59 PM
Kobe deserves an immense amount of credit for that threepeat. He was amazing when Shaq was in foul trouble and carried them. I'm not sure if LeBron would be the Finals MVP with that Shaq either.. and neither would Jordan. But no doubt about it, Shaq was the biggest reason they won.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:03 PM
Then don't bother debating someone who does that. Kobe winning 3 rings as the second best player on his team doesn't lessen the importance of those rings to his legacy at all. A lot of all timers weren't the best player on their championship teams every time.

I don't think Lebron would be good in the Triple Post Offense. So we don't really know if Lebron and Shaq would've won three straight NBA Championships. They may have got beat by the Kings or the Blazers. Maybe the Spurs beat them. Lebron doesn't really know how to use a center. Lebron could snap his fingers and have D. Cousins on his team within a second but there is a reason lebron doesn't do that. He doesn't know how to use centers. He doesn't like passing into the post and working off the ball to get open.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:05 PM
I don't think Lebron would be good in the Triple Post Offense. So we don't really know if Lebron and Shaq would've won three straight NBA Championships. They may have got beat by the Kings or the Blazers. Maybe the Spurs beat them. Lebron doesn't really know how to use a center. Lebron could snap his fingers and have D. Cousins on his team within a second but there is a reason lebron doesn't do that. He doesn't know how to use centers. He doesn't like passing into the post and working off the ball to get open.

LeBron doesn't know how to use centers? Can you explain how Mosgov played so well in the NBA Finals last season???? I think you're confusing him not having a great center his entire career with him not being able to use a center. LeBron can use ANYONE.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:11 PM
LeBron doesn't know how to use centers? Can you explain how Mosgov played so well in the NBA Finals last season???? I think you're confusing him not having a great center his entire career with him not being able to use a center. LeBron can use ANYONE.

So you cherry pick one example. Not a very good one to tell you the truth. What did he averagelike 14 and 8. Wow throw a parade. He was also benched an entire game aswell because Lebron wanted to try going with a forward at center. The main reason Mozgov average 14 points is becasue GS had benched Bogut and were playing a 6'6 Draymond Green at center most all of the game. Iggy was the PF and playing much better last season's Finals. So they could afford to do that.

But in general Lebron is not a post up type player. He's a drive and kick player all the way and I don't see Shaq sitting on the three point line waiting for lebron to pass to him.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:21 PM
So you cherry pick one example. Not a very good one to tell you the truth. What did he averagelike 14 and 8. Wow throw a parade. He was also benched an entire game aswell because Lebron wanted to try going with a forward at center. The main reason Mozgov average 14 points is becasue GS had benched Bogut and were playing a 6'6 Draymond Green at center most all of the game. Iggy was the PF and playing much better last season's Finals. So they could afford to do that.

But in general Lebron is not a post up type player. He's a drive and kick player all the way and I don't see Shaq sitting on the three point line waiting for lebron to pass to him.

You're the one cherrypicking by saying he lost to Dwight when he actually dominated the entire series... Orlando just had way too many weapons with Dwight sniping it to Lewis/Turkoglu/Reddick/Pietrus. And I'm 100% positive you have no idea what you're talking about. Mosgov may have averaged 14/8 but in one of those games, he rarely played since they were already getting blown out and the other, LeBron was just playing amazing basketball so he got few shots. Mosgov averaged 20 points for four games and had a 28 point game. You tell me which other player can get Mosgov 28 points in any game... Lol @ LeBron doesn't know how to play with centers. LeBron has never had any centers on his team that were elite. How are you even saying this?

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:34 PM
So you cherry pick one example. Not a very good one to tell you the truth. What did he averagelike 14 and 8. Wow throw a parade. He was also benched an entire game aswell because Lebron wanted to try going with a forward at center. The main reason Mozgov average 14 points is becasue GS had benched Bogut and were playing a 6'6 Draymond Green at center most all of the game. Iggy was the PF and playing much better last season's Finals. So they could afford to do that.

But in general Lebron is not a post up type player. He's a drive and kick player all the way and I don't see Shaq sitting on the three point line waiting for lebron to pass to him.
That's actually not what happened. He and the team was most effective when facing GS traditional lineup. It was only when they went small they mozzy became useless and the Cavs lacked options to counter.

Bron actually ran some triangle sets back in his youth but he was "bored" with post up sets. Young Bron actually saw alot of pindown sets in place of the horns action he prefers now. Keep in mind Phil wanted to trade Kobe for Marion and Jkidd, 2 non shooting slashers. I envision Bron and Shaq working a deadly 2 man Game similar to the one he shared with wade only more dominant as Wade had even less range on his jumper and is no where near as versatile.

Shaq and Bron actually had pretty good chemistry when they had the right lineup out there.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:35 PM
You're the one cherrypicking by saying he lost to Dwight when he actually dominated the entire series... Orlando just had way too many weapons with Dwight sniping it to Lewis/Turkoglu/Reddick/Pietrus. And I'm 100% positive you have no idea what you're talking about. Mosgov may have averaged 14/8 but in one of those games, he rarely played since they were already getting blown out and the other, LeBron was just playing amazing basketball so he got few shots. Mosgov averaged 20 points for four games and had a 28 point game. You tell me which other player can get Mosgov 28 points in any game... Lol @ LeBron doesn't know how to play with centers. LeBron has never had any centers on his team that were elite. How are you even saying this?

Yes, Lebron will get points against centers, but he stays outside most of the game.

Look, I know lebron can pass to his center 5-6 times a game and the center can score 10-14 but I just don't see him as a guy that will dribble to the side and pass into the post 30 times a game and work off the ball. Do you?

Cause go back and watch the Lakers Dynasty. They were passing into Shaq about 50 times a game and then they would run the offense through the post. Kobe would even pass into the Shaq about 20 of those times. Kobe is a very good off the ball player. He's clever at using back cuts, using Shaq as a screen, and going baseline and sneaking up inside to get tip ins from under the basket with his sneaky vertical leaping ability.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:36 PM
You're the one cherrypicking by saying he lost to Dwight when he actually dominated the entire series... Orlando just had way too many weapons with Dwight sniping it to Lewis/Turkoglu/Reddick/Pietrus. And I'm 100% positive you have no idea what you're talking about. Mosgov may have averaged 14/8 but in one of those games, he rarely played since they were already getting blown out and the other, LeBron was just playing amazing basketball so he got few shots. Mosgov averaged 20 points for four games and had a 28 point game. You tell me which other player can get Mosgov 28 points in any game... Lol @ LeBron doesn't know how to play with centers. LeBron has never had any centers on his team that were elite. How are you even saying this?

Yes, Lebron will get points against centers, but he stays outside most of the game.

Look, I know lebron can pass to his center 5-6 times a game and the center can score 10-14 but I just don't see him as a guy that will dribble to the side and pass into the post 30 times a game and work off the ball. Do you?

Cause go back and watch the Lakers Dynasty. They were passing into Shaq about 50 times a game and then they would run the offense through the post. Kobe would even pass into the Shaq about 20 of those times. Kobe is a very good off the ball player. He's clever at using back cuts, using Shaq as a screen, and going baseline and sneaking up inside to get tip ins from under the basket with his vertical leaping ability.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:39 PM
Yes, Lebron will get points against centers, but he stays outside most of the game.

Look, I know lebron can pass to his center 5-6 times a game and the center can score 10-14 but I just don't see him as a guy that will dribble to the side and pass into the post 30 times a game and work off the ball. Do you?

Cause go back and watch the Lakers Dynasty. They were passing into Shaq about 50 times a game and then they would run the offense through the post. Kobe would even pass into the Shaq about 20 of those times. Kobe is a very good off the ball player. He's clever at using back cuts, using Shaq as a screen, and going baseline and sneaking up inside to get tip ins from under the basket with his sneaky vertical leaping ability.

Who doesn't stay outside most of the time against a center? There's a reason why certain players are playing center.. because they are there to defend the paint. So your logic is pretty terrible. If there is a center that makes it tough for LeBron, then LeBron should find other ways to score. What else do you expect him to do?

And if Shaq can score with Kobe on his team, I don't need convincing to know Shaq would score even more with LeBron. LeBron is a willing passer. Looks to pass before he finds his own shot. Kobe looks to score and passes when he ultimately can't find a shot. Sorry but I have no idea why you're saying he can't play with Shaq. He played with Ilgauskas and made him looked serviceable but he can't with Shaq? Whatever.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:40 PM
So you think Rashard Lewis and Turkgulu is the reason the Magic won in 2009? Really? They won because Dwight went Beast Mode and averaged like 24/ 15 and 4 blocks on like 65% shooting. He blocked lebron several times in crucial moments of those games at the rim.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:42 PM
Who doesn't stay outside most of the time against a center? There's a reason why certain players are playing center.. because they are there to defend the paint. So your logic is pretty terrible. If there is a center that makes it tough for LeBron, then LeBron should find other ways to score. What else do you expect him to do?

And if Shaq can score with Kobe on his team, I don't need convincing to know Shaq would score even more with LeBron. LeBron is a willing passer. Looks to pass before he finds his own shot. Kobe looks to score and passes when he ultimately can't find a shot. Sorry but I have no idea why you're saying he can't play with Shaq. He played with Ilgauskas and made him looked serviceable but he can't with Shaq? Whatever.


Look I'm just looking at the facts. you're trying to twist the facts and make up stuff by acting like Lebron has always dominated Great Centers which just isn't true.

He even struggled against Bogut in this past round. He's fortunate that Bogut went down. Bogut is one of the leaders of that GS Defense and also a very good passer.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:45 PM
So you think Rashard Lewis and Turkgulu is the reason the Magic won in 2009? Really? They won because Dwight went Beast Mode and averaged like 24/ 15 and 4 blocks on like 65% shooting. He blocked lebron several times in crucial moments of those games at the rim.

How do you think Dwight was scoring that efficiently? Because they couldn't double him with Rashard playing PF and spacing the floor knocking down threes at a high clip. Orlando's shooters were just really good because Dwight commanded the paint and because they were all shooting really well collectively. I don't know what to say to you. "He blocked LeBron several times in crucial moments." Never said Dwight wasn't great but LeBron was the best player in that series and they lost because Orlando's shooters just beat them.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:46 PM
Look I'm just looking at the facts. you're trying to twist the facts and make up stuff by acting like Lebron has always dominated Great Centers which just isn't true.

He even struggled against Bogut in this past round. He's fortunate that Bogut went down. Bogut is one of the leaders of that GS Defense and also a very good passer.

I'm not going to bother going back and forth with you. I never said he dominated great centers. You're the one saying he lost to KG/Duncan/Wallace/Dwight but ignore that he also beat them as well. Your logic really fails and is one-sided. The fact you don't even have CP3 on your top ten but considered Blake Griffin as one is just a clear representation of your basketball judgement.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:49 PM
could you please bring us Mozgovs best average in Denver and give us his average in Cleveland. I don't really care to cherry pick one or two games when I'm trying to talk about many many games and get an overall sense.

Cause I think you're trying to make it seem that mozgov has no game and was just a 1ppg player every year and every game until all of a sudden he got with James and started averaging like 15 and 10. Which isn't the case.

It goes for any post player too. Love was a post player in Minnesota. He would get the ball from Rubio about 20 times in the post and many more in the mid post aswell. Now with lebron playing basically the point guard he gets the ball about 2 times in the post.

Barkley and all the greats would always say the blueprint on how to beat Cleveland and Miami.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:50 PM
I'm not going to bother going back and forth with you. I never said he dominated great centers. You're the one saying he lost to KG/Duncan/Wallace/Dwight but ignore that he also beat them as well. Your logic really fails and is one-sided. The fact you don't even have CP3 on your top ten but considered Blake Griffin as one is just a clear representation of your basketball judgement.

So you don't think lebron has ever struggled vs great 7 footers? He's NEVER struggled against any of them in your mind???

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:51 PM
You're comparing Bosh as a center to Shaq? My God, you are just being silly.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:53 PM
So you don't think lebron has ever struggled vs great 7 footers? He's NEVER struggled against any of them in your mind???

When did I say that? Are you reading correctly? They should check your account to see if you are ban-dodging. You said James lost to Wallace/Duncan/KG/Dwight but you don't acknowledge that he also beat them. Why are you making one-sided arguments? Are you going to be objective at all or are you just trying to make stuff up with nonsense? Comparing Bosh to Shaq as a center? Bosh's natural position isn't even a center.. Name the centers LeBron had during his career:

Zydrunas
Varejao
Joel Anthony
Bosh

He won championships with weak centers but you're telling me he wouldn't play well with Shaq?

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:58 PM
Flashbolt I'm not trying to be argumenative. I'm trying to be cool with you. How many do you think Shaq would average on Lebron's team?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:02 PM
Flashbolt I'm not trying to be argumenative. I'm trying to be cool with you. How many do you think Shaq would average on Lebron's team?

Read what you said:

"LeBron doesn't know how to use centers."

What are you basing this off of?

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:06 PM
He did have Shaq at age 36 I believe and it was a big signing. I think Shaq got 8 million a year. I could go and check all the facts. Shaq still had a lot of game left and had been named to the Western Conference All Star game previously that Feb and that is the harder All Star team to make. Why did his stats go from 18 a game down to like 12 ppg a game. I watched it and tried to figure it out. Shaq was calling for the ball and lebron was waving him off. Shaq had the position and was two feet from the rim. Shaq even came in that season in great shape and the Cavs had plans to win a title. Shaq was stoked about getting on a 60 win type team again. He was ready to play that season. He just didn't get the ball but about 10 times a game total. Compared to getting passed to in the post in Pheonix an average of 20 times a game. I watched the games. I watch all the games in the NBA every season and watch the post area of the game.

James will hook his centers up with about 10-15 points but nothing more. Even if he had prime Shaq, his numbers and thrown to's will go down a lot. There is no evidence what so ever that Lebron likes passing into the post. A player has to "like" doing that to do it. All the Evidence points to lebron not liking to throw into the post. As the other reader posted. "he thinks it's boring". Well I'm sorry but that is how you beat great centers. you have to attack them with size.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:08 PM
He did have Shaq at age 36 I believe and it was a big signing. I think Shaq got 8 million a year. I could go and check all the facts. Shaq still had a lot of game left and had been named to the Western Conference All Star game previously that Feb and that is the harder All Star team to make. Why did his stats go from 18 a game down to like 12 ppg a game. I watched it and tried to figure it out. Shaq was calling for the ball and lebron was waving him off. Shaq had the position and was two feet from the rim. Shaq even came in that season in great shape and the Cavs had plans to win a title. Shaq was stoked about getting on a 60 win type team again. He was ready to play that season. He just didn't get the ball but about 10 times a game total. Compared to getting passed to in the post in Pheonix an average of 20 times a game. I watched the games. I watch all the games in the NBA every season and watch the post area of the game.

James will hook his centers up with about 10-15 points but nothing more. Even if he had prime Shaq, his numbers and thrown to's will go down a lot. There is no evidence what so ever that Lebron likes passing into the post. A player has to "like" doing that to do it. All the Evidence points to lebron not liking to throw into the post. As the other reader posted. "he thinks it's boring". Well I'm sorry but that is how you beat great centers. you have to attack them with size.

Lol. Enough said.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:10 PM
Read what you said:

"LeBron doesn't know how to use centers."

What are you basing this off of?

I'm saying in general compared to other great ball handling guard's or point forwards. Magic would look to Kareem everytime down the floor. Jordan and them even got Longley up around the 10ppg every game on those stacked teams. Jordan even got Cartwright going late in his career with around 10 ppg. Yet James can only get Shaq 13 ppg late in his career. No, I'm not buying it. Shaq was better than that and under utilized.

He also under-utilizes Triston Thompson some. And when Kevin is playing Center he under-utilizes him some too.

I'm not saying he's the absulute worst ever at this. Lots of players are like this in todays NBA. Hell, Westbrook has probbaly never passed into the post one time in his entire career.

Kobe did a good job of feeding the post, you have to admit that. That is a great skill to have in it's own right. He learned it from watching Pippen and Jordan while growing up.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:11 PM
flashbolt how old are you?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:12 PM
And btw, Shaq averaged the same amount of shots per minute in Phoenix/Cleveland. The only reason he got more shots up in Phoenix was because he played more minutes. Maybe you should figure out what that means.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:13 PM
flashbolt how old are you?

Old enough to realize you might be a banned user and will report you to the mods.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:15 PM
could you please bring us Mozgovs best average in Denver and give us his average in Cleveland. I don't really care to cherry pick one or two games when I'm trying to talk about many many games and get an overall sense.

Cause I think you're trying to make it seem that mozgov has no game and was just a 1ppg player every year and every game until all of a sudden he got with James and started averaging like 15 and 10. Which isn't the case.

It goes for any post player too. Love was a post player in Minnesota. He would get the ball from Rubio about 20 times in the post and many more in the mid post aswell. Now with lebron playing basically the point guard he gets the ball about 2 times in the post.

Barkley and all the greats would always say the blueprint on how to beat Cleveland and Miami.
Thats not an argument you want to make stranger. I get what you're trying to say, that Mozzy's role never really changed but his effectiveness in that role sure did. His scoring rate AND efficiency exploded upon immediately arriving in Cleveland. Some of that has to do with scouting and teams not at all prepared for the change but some of it has to do with the Bron effect. How much, I dont know but he had good chemistry with him.

Love is the 3rd banana, that kind of dropoff would happen to anyone. Hell, look at Karl Malone when he joined LA, dude couldve put up much greater numbers and chased the #1 scoring record but he sacrificed individual glory for team success and it almost worked out.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:16 PM
you're just wanting to say that lebron is the absolute best at every single thing and has never made one mistake on the floor. You want to act like he's never lost one game ever and that he could post up on shaq everytime and dunk on him everytime.

You're not being realistic at all. You're not thinking the game out. You're refusing to look for any weaknesses in Lebron's game. You want to assume that Shaq and James would win three straight titles and Shaq would average 40 points so how macially and James would also average 35 magically. It doesn't work that way. For a center to average 40 points you have to pass to them like 50 times in the game.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:18 PM
Old enough to realize you might be a banned user and will report you to the mods.
We need more posters, guy

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:20 PM
you're just wanting to say that lebron is the absolute best at every single thing and has never made one mistake on the floor. You want to act like he's never lost one game ever and that he could post up on shaq everytime and dunk on him everytime.

You're not being realistic at all. You're not thinking the game out. You're refusing to look for any weaknesses in Lebron's game. You want to assume that Shaq and James would win three straight titles and Shaq would average 40 points so how macially and James would also average 35 magically. It doesn't work that way. For a center to average 40 points you have to pass to them like 50 times in the game.

You're the one who said LeBron doesn't know how to use a center and your evidence was that a 36 year old Shaq got less shot attempts after he went from Phoenix to Cleveland.. despite facts showing that he got the same amount of shots per minute. Then you use Magic as an example.. after KAJ retired, how many shots did Magic get for Vlade? You're not acknowledging that LeBron has never had an elite center. You want him to pass it to guys who aren't natural centers, who aren't great post players, and who can't score willingly. You really have no evidence to suggest he doesn't pass it to the post.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:20 PM
Thats not an argument you want to make stranger. I get what you're trying to say, that Mozzy's role never really changed but his effectiveness in that role sure did. His scoring rate AND efficiency exploded upon immediately arriving in Cleveland. Some of that has to do with scouting and teams not at all prepared for the change but some of it has to do with the Bron effect. How much, I dont know but he had good chemistry with him.

Love is the 3rd banana, that kind of dropoff would happen to anyone. Hell, look at Karl Malone when he joined LA, dude couldve put up much greater numbers and chased the #1 scoring record but he sacrificed individual glory for team success and it almost worked out.

Malone was 40 years old and didn't care to stay in Utah anymore. He didn't care about chasing the number one scoring.

Love is in his prime and not 40 years old. Love did well in grabbing 14 big rebounds in game 7.

How many points do you think prime Shaq averages in LA and what kind of playoff numbers would he average aswell. Because he was getting about 28 in the reg season and about 33 in the playoffs each season. Those are HUGE NUMBERS and he had to get the ball a ton in the low post with a shooter in the corner and one on the wing. then with help side action and screens. Many times they would post and then repost. Kids don't do that today. That takes players like Ron Harper 35 years old, Brian Shaw 34 years old. Derek Fisher who had an old man game already. Kobe who was old school to a degree back then because he grew up watching all the greats.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:22 PM
Hey Jeffro, how come Pau Gasol averaged less shots when he went to the Lakers? I thought Kobe was supposed to be a better passer than James in regards to the center position/post position?

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:23 PM
Furthermore Worthy was a third option and average 22-23 ppg every season. Also Mitch Richmond was a third option in GS and he averaged 22-23 each season. So the third option thing doesn't hold water.


Lebron with his DREAM TEAM should've won 75 games this past season and had the home court advantage.

Lebron should've averaged 22, Irving 22, and Love 22. More balance on such a DREAM TEAM would be Ideal, you have to admit that.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:26 PM
Hey Jeffro, how come Pau Gasol averaged less shots when he went to the Lakers? I thought Kobe was supposed to be a better passer than James in regards to the center position/post position?

Was it minimal like 0.5 less shots? They did pass into Gasol a lot though and he would then pass back out for the assist or the hockey assist. The Lakers were a post up team all the way. Why do you hate post up players by the way?

The Lakers also had Bynum who was a post up player and pretty good that would get the ball to go to work about 15 times per game. Now he doesn't shoot all 15 times, but he will shoot about 10 of those times on a hook or a dunk or get fouled and earn two easy free throws.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:29 PM
Was it minimal like 0.5 less shots? They did pass into Gasol a lot though and he would then pass back out for the assist or the hockey assist. The Lakers were a post up team all the way. Why do you hate post up players by the way?

The Lakers also had Bynum who was a post up player and pretty good that would get the ball to go to work about 15 times per game. Now he doesn't shoot all 15 times, but he will shoot about 10 of those times on a hook or a dunk or get fouled and earn two easy free throws.

But wait.. you just said Shaq averaged less shots despite evidence suggesting he averaged the same amount on a per-minute basis. Now you're saying it's only .5 less shots when it doesn't help your argument? Just stop and admit that you didn't mean to say LeBron doesn't know how to play with a center. You have ZERO evidence.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:30 PM
Malone was 40 years old and didn't care to stay in Utah anymore. He didn't care about chasing the number one scoring.

I was hoping you wouldn't bring up the age thing considering the argument you JUST USED was that an old Shaq joined Bron and declined thereafter. Malone was posting numbers at his age that **** on most PF's even today, that he was old doesnt change the fact that he couldve put up much greater numbers than he did in LA.


Love is in his prime and not 40 years old. Love did well in grabbing 14 big rebounds in game 7.

Love is in his prime but I dont think hes in his peak run anymore, dude has shaky knees and made his mark with his offensive rebounding early in his career and if you know anything about statistical trends you know that its an aspect of the game that ages pretty rapidly.


How many points do you think prime Shaq averages in LA and what kind of playoff numbers would he average aswell. Because he was getting about 28 in the reg season and about 33 in the playoffs each season. Those are HUGE NUMBERS and he had to get the ball a ton in the low post with a shooter in the corner and one on the wing. then with help side action and screens. Many times they would post and then repost. Kids don't do that today. That takes players like Ron Harper 35 years old, Brian Shaw 34 years old. Derek Fisher who had an old man game already. Kobe who was old school to a degree back then because he grew up watching all the greats.

They dont do it today but you're transplanting Bron into that situation in his youth, plenty of time to drill it into him. Bron was more coachable than Kobe IMO so I dont buy that it would've been a problem. The standard for winning really isn't that high, Kobe wasn't even a superstar during their first title and tbh, Bron fits the make up better. Think about it, when Kobe joined Shaq he was a skinny teen incapable of playing the 3. It was such a skillset overlap that the Lakers had to downgrade from Eddie Jones and Elden Cambell to the corpse of Glen Rice, all to find a natural SF so that Kobe could play his natural position.

Bron doesn't have that problem, hell its possible his skillset fits so perfectly that the Lakers never trade away the likes of Nick Van Exel (scoring PG) and Eddie Jones (3D SG), I know for damn sure the Lakers become a better rebounding/transition team. Honestly, the Lakers build the team around young Bron and Shaq much differently. Given the direction Phil wanted to go when he wanted to axe Kobe, Im not seeing an argument for you. You dont need to be an elite scorer/shooter to play with someone like Shaq. Dude was a vortex onto himself, you give him the ball and watch how many layups Bron gets. As skilled as Kobe was, theres a reason the Lakers dropped off so badly without Shaq and theres a reason why Kobes efficiency plummets to Iversonian levels in the games Shaq missed. Bron never has those issues

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:30 PM
Now you're questioning LeBron's ability to share the ball? Wow, you are just something special.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:34 PM
But wait.. you just said Shaq averaged less shots despite evidence suggesting he averaged the same amount on a per-minute basis. Now you're saying it's only .5 less shots when it doesn't help your argument? Just stop and admit that you didn't mean to say LeBron doesn't know how to play with a center. You have ZERO evidence.

Look we're splitting hairs now. All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that lebron can be a second fiddle in terms of shots taken and touches. It's never happened. No evidence of it. Not even in all star games when he's surrounded by other great players. Seems to me lebron feels he always has to have the most points on the East and take the most shots. He averages like 23 shots per game in his All Star career which is absurd and screams ball hog.

The next is like Jordan at like 15 shots per game. HUGE DIFFERENCE

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:34 PM
Furthermore Worthy was a third option and average 22-23 ppg every season. Also Mitch Richmond was a third option in GS and he averaged 22-23 each season. So the third option thing doesn't hold water.


Lebron with his DREAM TEAM should've won 75 games this past season and had the home court advantage.

Lebron should've averaged 22, Irving 22, and Love 22. More balance on such a DREAM TEAM would be Ideal, you have to admit that.

Worthy was getting most of the shots at some point wasn't he? I disagree that the balance should be spread out the way you imply, if anything I believe it makes the team worse. When you have someone as effective as Bron, you dont minimize his impact in favor of guys who aren't as effective. The balance you prefer would lead to inferior efficiency from the role players IMO. 75 wins is utter ignorance on your part. I thought you were trying to have a serious discussion.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:36 PM
Now you're questioning LeBron's ability to share the ball? Wow, you are just something special.

you still haven't answered the basketball question because there is a bombshell in it. Who averages more points. Shaq or Lebron? Easy simple question but the answer MEANS SO MUCH

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:40 PM
Do you think Cleveland should probably be winning 65 + wins each season??? I do. There is no reason not too. They are the best overall team in the NBA and they play in a joke of a conference.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:41 PM
Look we're splitting hairs now. All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that lebron can be a second fiddle in terms of shots taken and touches. It's never happened. No evidence of it. Not even in all star games when he's surrounded by other great players. Seems to me lebron feels he always has to have the most points on the East and take the most shots. He averages like 23 shots per game in his All Star career which is absurd and screams ball hog.

The next is like Jordan at like 15 shots per game. HUGE DIFFERENCE

Omfg.... Kobe took more shots than Shaq in 2/3 years that they won the three-peat.. Wow, you are just astonishingly biased. It's evident you had an agenda against LeBron before any of this. LeBron doesn't average 23 shots per game in the ASG... and the reason he averages more shots per game than Jordan is because the ASG since LeBron joined has been about dunking in transition.. it's why the ASG's recently have been the highest scoring ASG's... I'm done with you. Not going to convince someone who had an agenda before it started.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:42 PM
Word for the wise even a ball hog and average some assists. Not implying anything so don't get in a pissy mood.

MarkieMark48
06-22-2016, 02:42 PM
LOL! Lebron cant play with centers... yea Zydrunas, a old broken down Shaq, Mozgov and Udonis Haslem are all solid arguments there.... might as well throw Joel Anthony in there too. You could argue the most athletic Center Lebron ever played with was a 34 year old Birdman they signed mid-season off his own couch.

This is getting ridiculous

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:42 PM
Do you think Cleveland should probably be winning 65 + wins each season??? I do. There is no reason not too. They are the best overall team in the NBA and they play in a joke of a conference.

No.. but they won the NBA championship so who the **** cares? LOL..

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:43 PM
LOL! Lebron cant play with centers... yea Zydrunas, a old broken down Shaq, Mozgov and Udonis Haslem are all solid arguments there.... might as well throw Joel Anthony in there too. You could argue the most athletic Center Lebron ever played with was a 33 year old Birdman they signed mid-season off his own couch.

This is getting ridiculous

He doesn't even believe half the crap he's saying. Every single argument he made was invalid. Saying LeBron would average more shots than Shaq and how it wouldn't work because of that.. but failing to realize Kobe took more shots than Shaq. Wow.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:45 PM
BTW, why should LeBron play second fiddle when every team he has been on, he was the best player? Kobe wasn't the best player in the Lakers during Shaq's time there and he STILL took more shots than Shaq. Talk about more idiotic arguments made by you.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:46 PM
Omfg.... Kobe took more shots than Shaq in 2/3 years that they won the three-peat.. Wow, you are just astonishingly biased. It's evident you had an agenda against LeBron before any of this. LeBron doesn't average 23 shots per game in the ASG... and the reason he averages more shots per game than Jordan is because the ASG since LeBron joined has been about dunking in transition.. it's why the ASG's recently have been the highest scoring ASG's... I'm done with you. Not going to convince someone who had an agenda before it started.

LEARN THE GAME. SHAQ is getting fouled everytime so the STAT sheet that you look at doesn't show a FGA instead it Show 2 FTA.

Also Shaq averaged more for the most part in points and also in the playoffs Jackson would ramp it up the amount of catches for Shaq in the post. Maybe in the regular season it was 40 catchs a game in the post. In the playoffs it's 55 catches in the low post where Shaq CREATES. that could be a Score for him, a pass out for a three or a pass pass hockey assist. But that was SHAQS TEAM ALL THE WAY just like it would be SHAQS team if lebron was there and he'd have to get used to that or be shipped out.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:50 PM
BTW, why should LeBron play second fiddle when every team he has been on, he was the best player? Kobe wasn't the best player in the Lakers during Shaq's time there and he STILL took more shots than Shaq. Talk about more idiotic arguments made by you.

Look I know lebron's game more than you, Lebron with Shaq would be a mess. Maybe even a mess for Phil Jackson to orchstrate. I just know that lebron is like westbrook and all these others. He's like James Harden who averages 7 assist and never looks to Dwight Howard the best center in the NBA. Shaq's numbers would go from about 29 a game to about 24 a game and he'd have to work way harder to get those 24 because he's not being setup correctly or properly. Those are the FACTS. you should be happy though because Lebron will still get his 26 or whatever and you'll lose in the WCF.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:51 PM
So Shaq doesn't get fouled if LeBron is on his team? Yup, keep it up Jeffro. "He's like James Harden." Are you amost1er's long lost twin?

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 02:53 PM
you're emotional about lebron. you should be happy, yes. Lebron would average more points than Shaq on the same teams. It really wouldn't even be close. Lebron would be up around 27 and Shaq would be down around 23 and he'd have to work extra hard for those 23. You should be happy.