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View Full Version : Where Does Kyrie Irving Rank Currently?



Redrum187
06-20-2016, 12:15 AM
1.) Where do you rank him amongst all active players?

2.) Where do you rank him amongst the PGs?

Yanks All Day
06-20-2016, 12:18 AM
Very hard to rank him among every player in the NBA.

For point guards, I'd still say:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
Kyrie
Lillard

I had it that way before the Finals, and it's still that way. The Finals didn't change anything, but they did highlight that he is in fact a big-time scorer that plays to the level of his competition. But he is ONLY 24 years old. He's not even close to his prime yet. He's got a great future ahead of him.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-20-2016, 12:24 AM
Top 10 player and top 3 PG after this series.

CHANGO
06-20-2016, 12:24 AM
2 soon?

It's hard to rank him among guards and even harder among players lol...

I think for guards:

1. Curry (even after sucking this playoffs, if we are talking about RS, he still the best)
2. Westy
3. CP3
4. Lowry
5. Kyrie (he was better defensively on the Finals)
6. Lillard (he still have to get better defensively)

don't know if I'm forgetting any pg...

So... Maybe top 30 player and top 5 guard.

LaLa_Land
06-20-2016, 12:27 AM
Point guards are like running backs - they are a dime a dozen. From the Jeff Teagues and Reggie Jacksons of the world to the John Walls and Mike Conleys, it seems as though every team has a sound point guard.

Chris Paul is aging. Damian Lillard is jam-packed with talent, but hasn't been able to muster much with Portland yet.

But there are three transcendent point guards in this league. This theoretical top tier consists of Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, and Kyrie Irving. Completely interchangeable ranking depending on the night.

ManRam
06-20-2016, 12:32 AM
yeah...it gets murky after that absurdly obvious top tier of curry/russ/cp3. the ability he showed these playoffs and finals really impressed me. if he can keep it up and turn net-negative defense into something more neutral i think he can climb to the top of that second tier. he's just gotta show it more consistently next year. he's still so young too. excited for his future now. this was a helluva coming out party.

flea
06-20-2016, 12:34 AM
2nd best guard scorer in the game, no lower than the 4th best overall at his position. He's got an argument over all 3 potentially ahead of him too.

Jayb587
06-20-2016, 12:48 AM
kyrie surpassed CP3 with this series. kyrie only going to get better, and we have seen the best of cp3 already.

curry
westbrook
kyrie

LOb0
06-20-2016, 12:51 AM
It is debatable if he's better than CP3 just due to being able to take over a game scoring wise late. Something CP3 has struggled with. Mainly because he's only 6 foot tall and not as fast as he once was.

He's 3rd or 4th. Overall rank? I'd have to break it down. He wasn't bad defensively so his stock is way up.

Jewelz0376
06-20-2016, 01:06 AM
As a scorer is doesn't get much better than Kyrie. This finals didn't surprise me. I always knew he was a big time scorer.

I'd like to see Kyrie be able to have a bigger impact on the game if he's having an off scoring night.

CHANGO
06-20-2016, 01:44 AM
As a scorer is doesn't get much better than Kyrie. This finals didn't surprise me. I always knew he was a big time scorer.

I'd like to see Kyrie be able to have a bigger impact on the game if he's having an off scoring night.

This. Offensively I think he have a case for the best PG.

He have the better handles, IMO is the best finishing at the rim with or without contact. Have the better mid range shot (you can make a case for CP3) and obviously Curry is a better 3pt shooter, but he have a sweet stroke from there too.

naps
06-20-2016, 01:50 AM
Funny thing is he is not a PG. He is a undersized shooting guard. Tremendously talented one on one scorer and equally bad as a defender. He has turned a lot of people around for sure with these finals.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 01:54 AM
I'd still put him just below Curry/Westbrook/CP3 but I'm telling you, this Finals did wonders for him. The playoffs in general was a huge boost for Kyrie. He was the best PG and a case can be made that he was the 2nd best playoffs player this season. In a few years, he will be the best PG and a top five player. You watch... Btw, he's freaking 24. He's better than Curry was at 24.

mngopher35
06-20-2016, 01:56 AM
I think you can argue top 5 pg if this is how he continues to play in the post seasons moving forward. He definitely played better than I thought he would and came up with some big games/moments. Very impressed with his performance even if I still see a few issues (still though he clearly outplayed any negative aspects, huge series for him).

Confusious
06-20-2016, 02:11 AM
Very hard to rank him among every player in the NBA.

For point guards, I'd still say:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
Kyrie
Lillard

I had it that way before the Finals, and it's still that way. The Finals didn't change anything, but they did highlight that he is in fact a big-time scorer that plays to the level of his competition. But he is ONLY 24 years old. He's not even close to his prime yet. He's got a great future ahead of him.
I would say that this is pretty accurate. I'd say KI and CP are neck and neck though.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 02:14 AM
kyrie surpassed CP3 with this series. kyrie only going to get better, and we have seen the best of cp3 already.

curry
westbrook
kyrie

so to you yet again rings mean everything and defense mean nothing? Cp3 is literally a worldy defender compared to kyrie and just as good offensively while being a better passer

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 02:15 AM
Westy/Curry/Cp3 are the top 3 period... After that you can throw him wherever you want.

Chronz
06-20-2016, 02:51 AM
Why would I grade him above a guy who is better on both ends in CP3? Scoring isn't the only aspect of offense and its a chasm of a gap defensively, so no hes still in the tier below the obvious primary 3.

I mean, the guy arguably outplayed Stephen Curry in this series, yet I doubt anyone is stupid enough to rank him above the MVP. Same here, CP3 is still FAR more efficient on both ends overall. Tho this debate does remind me of the many times Tony Parker was kind of overrated for his success and the dude was an actual Finals MVP and had posted bigger numbers than Kyrie. Lets not forget that he was on a contender that could win #1 seed without him whereas most of these guys are on teams that dont have LeBron James capable of shouldering the load.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-20-2016, 03:34 AM
He has a pretty good argument over CP3 imo.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2016, 03:43 AM
Ugh Paul is still better, wall isn't far off Kyrie either is lillard. I'd say top 5 pg is prob about right prob got him 4th just ahead of wall

Chronz
06-20-2016, 04:04 AM
I had Lillard ahead of him but Vee made a pretty convincing argument against that. This Finals win at least gets him ahead of the guys on his tier but that could easily change within a year. As it should be, these rankings should be fluid, like I thought RWB had surpassed CP3 as a player when his team bested his in the playoffs, I thought for sure the argument was dead as CP3 declined and RWB continued his ascension, but then the next 2 years happened and I came away more impressed with CP3's impact. I have those 2 as my 2a and 2b, After than its Kyrie at 4, Dame at 5 and Wall at 6 but that tier is pretty hard to judge

Chronz
06-20-2016, 04:10 AM
He has a pretty good argument over CP3 imo.
Good luck making it.

More-Than-Most
06-20-2016, 04:17 AM
He has a pretty good argument over CP3 imo.

Id love to hear it.

naps
06-20-2016, 04:47 AM
he has a pretty good argument over cp3 imo.

zero.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-20-2016, 05:14 AM
I've always thought Paul was overrated. He may be the better defender and all around type of player than Irving but the guy hasn't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs in his life playing on some pretty respectable teams, which really hurts his stature imo.

I judge players for how they show up on the big stage and what Kyrie did in these finals has been simply astounding. Maybe I'm putting too much into playoff success but playing at an MVP level on the biggest stage in the game can't go ignored here.

Vee-Rex
06-20-2016, 08:59 AM
Wow I can't believe you guys are trashing Paul now.

I got Steph, Russ/Paul, then the next tier I think is up for debate (Lowry/Lillard/Irving/Wall). I'd probably have Irving as 4th or 5th.

Tony_Starks
06-20-2016, 09:01 AM
Dropped 41 in a game to save the series, dagger shot to win the chip, and outplayed the MVP on the biggest stage.

Top 10 in the game, put some respect on his name.

DboneG
06-20-2016, 09:13 AM
Westy/Curry/Cp3 are the top 3 period... After that you can throw him wherever you want.


Yes, but, we see the flaws in Curry's game now..NO DEFENSE! He can't create for others well, low assist ratio compared to the amount of time he has the ball. (I mentioned this plenty of times before) But, someone keep talking a hockey assist. Just decent going to the basket. Kyrie is on the move...up!

DboneG
06-20-2016, 09:19 AM
Kyrie is about 4th - 6th best guard in the league. On the move, up!

da ThRONe
06-20-2016, 09:28 AM
I'm less prisoner of the moment. Irving to me is too hit or miss. When he's hot he's as effective as someone like Curry, but when he's off he wants to still ISO far too much and has a huge negative impact on his team.

Not sure he's better than Wall and Lowry when you factor in passing and defense. At this point I'd say top 5 PG

1 Curry
2 Westbrook
3 Paul
4 Lillard
5 Lowry

I'd look to put Irving here along with Wall.

da ThRONe
06-20-2016, 09:31 AM
I've always thought Paul was overrated. He may be the better defender and all around type of player than Irving but the guy hasn't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs in his life playing on some pretty respectable teams, which really hurts his stature imo.

I judge players for how they show up on the big stage and what Kyrie did in these finals has been simply astounding. Maybe I'm putting too much into playoff success but playing at an MVP level on the biggest stage in the game can't go ignored here.

What did Irving do before LeBron came back to town? James greatness can't be over looked in Irving success.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 10:33 AM
Kyrie Irving was great but anyone leading an entire series for either teams in points, rebounds, steals, assists, and blocks? That's the MVP.

AIRMAR72
06-20-2016, 10:40 AM
Funny thing is he is not a PG. He is a undersized shooting guard. Tremendously talented one on one scorer and equally bad as a defender. He has turned a lot of people around for sure with these finals. agreed

Jayb587
06-20-2016, 10:54 AM
so to you yet again rings mean everything and defense mean nothing? Cp3 is literally a worldy defender compared to kyrie and just as good offensively while being a better passer

Kyrie took his defense to a new level in the finals. Don't see why you keep bashing it. He wasn't bad at all. And he proved he could be clutch in the playoffs . Something cp3 has never done. With age considered,hes better then cp3 and the next regular season will cement that even more.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2016, 10:58 AM
well, if we want to just rank him based on his last 3 games, very high. But until we see effort on a regular basis on defense, and his offense is consistent, he still isn't a top 10 PG in the league.

Again, before you jump down my throat, look at his body of work, not just his last week.

aman_13
06-20-2016, 11:05 AM
He's not really a pg.

twellner9
06-20-2016, 11:06 AM
well, if we want to just rank him based on his last 3 games, very high. But until we see effort on a regular basis on defense, and his offense is consistent, he still isn't a top 10 PG in the league.

Again, before you jump down my throat, look at his body of work, not just his last week.

I agree. Even in the last 3 games, yes he scored but he still had so many possessions that just looked bad. He still needs to learn to move the ball. Too many times he takes the ball up the court, dribble dribble dribble, no I won't pass, contested awful shot.

If he is making them it looks okay, but if not its just terrible offense. I think he had success because the Cavs figured out how to make Curry be the primary defender.

As a side not, Kyrie couldn't even make the playoffs without Lebron. I think a lot of people underestimate just how much it helps to have a beast the other team needs to game plan against. He the king left after this year I think Cleveland would struggle to make the playoffs yet again.

Jayb587
06-20-2016, 11:07 AM
He's not really a pg.

Who is? That does not matter.

MagicBucsSox
06-20-2016, 11:11 AM
What did Irving do before LeBron came back to town? James greatness can't be over looked in Irving success.

Exactly. There's a reason the Cavs got Anthony Bennett n Wiggins. Kyrie was no different from John Wall until LeBron came back.
He's not on Chris Paul level

IndyRealist
06-20-2016, 11:13 AM
Withholding judgement until he has a fully healthy season.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 11:14 AM
Who is? That does not matter.

CP3/Rubio/Rondo. We're talking about true pass first PG's here. The reason the SG position is the weakest is because PG's are turning into hybrid players.

Vee-Rex
06-20-2016, 11:20 AM
I agree. Even in the last 3 games, yes he scored but he still had so many possessions that just looked bad. He still needs to learn to move the ball. Too many times he takes the ball up the court, dribble dribble dribble, no I won't pass, contested awful shot.

If he is making them it looks okay, but if not its just terrible offense. I think he had success because the Cavs figured out how to make Curry be the primary defender.

As a side not, Kyrie couldn't even make the playoffs without Lebron. I think a lot of people underestimate just how much it helps to have a beast the other team needs to game plan against. He the king left after this year I think Cleveland would struggle to make the playoffs yet again.

Kyrie is one of the most gifted ISO scorers in the world. Lue encourages him to have that aggressive mentality and look for his shot.

If people like Lowry and Wall and Rubio and Conley had Kyrie's offensive talent, you'd see them being aggressive and taking those kind of shots too. It's the Mamba-mentality - people need to stop hating and overly-criticizing the man and give him his props.

Steph had so many possessions that looks bad (and he takes HORRIBLE shots) yet people would glorify him to no end. Same with Lillard who takes absolutely terrible shots, has just as bad of defense as Kyrie, same kind of passer, yet he is praised non-stop.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 11:26 AM
Do you guys remember when everyone was saying that the Cavs were injured without Kyrie and some people said Delly brings defense and toughness that Kyrie doesn't have so it wouldn't have mattered if Kyrie played? Folks, you just saw the difference in an elite PG compared to a backup PG. I can't believe some of you thought Delly>Kyrie for the Finals last season... I'm glad this series proved something to you.

twellner9
06-20-2016, 11:27 AM
Kyrie is one of the most gifted ISO scorers in the world. Lue encourages him to have that aggressive mentality and look for his shot.

If people like Lowry and Wall and Rubio and Conley had Kyrie's offensive talent, you'd see them being aggressive and taking those kind of shots too. It's the Mamba-mentality - people need to stop hating and overly-criticizing the man and give him his props.

Steph had so many possessions that looks bad (and he takes HORRIBLE shots) yet people would glorify him to no end. Same with Lillard who takes absolutely terrible shots, has just as bad of defense as Kyrie, same kind of passer, yet he is praised non-stop.

A big difference is Kyrie is NOT the primary option. Also no one is encouraging those awful possessions. Its why Lebron kept yelling at him. Game 1 of the Finals he had 15 possessions where he never passed that ball and was 1/15 of those possessions 0/9 when Lebron was on the court.

Lilliard leads his team to the playoffs and averages 7 asp. Wall is not a good scorer, Rubio sucks, and Conley is perfect when healthy.

The "Mamba" mentality is stupid. Use your team, its why they are there. Stop praising Kobe for being selfish.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 11:31 AM
A big difference is Kyrie is NOT the primary option. Also no one is encouraging those awful possessions. Its why Lebron kept yelling at him. Game 1 of the Finals he had 15 possessions where he never passed that ball and was 1/15 of those possessions 0/9 when Lebron was on the court.

Lilliard leads his team to the playoffs and averages 7 asp. Wall is not a good scorer, Rubio sucks, and Conley is perfect when healthy.

The "Mamba" mentality is stupid. Use your team, its why they are there. Stop praising Kobe for being selfish.

I agree with somewhat of your assessment but Kyrie's ISO is his greatest ability. He can destroy a team's defense with his ISO. Sorry, he proved us wrong with his NBA Finals appearance. I can't say a bad thing about Kyrie.

twellner9
06-20-2016, 11:35 AM
I agree with somewhat of your assessment but Kyrie's ISO is his greatest ability. He can destroy a team's defense with his ISO. Sorry, he proved us wrong with his NBA Finals appearance. I can't say a bad thing about Kyrie.

He could destroy just as much being a facilitator and spot up shooter. Kyrie on ISO or basically any player outside of Lebron for that matter is not efficient offense. The Cavs were much better when the moved the ball.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-20-2016, 11:36 AM
I said at the start of the series that in order for Cleveland to pull off the upset, Kyrie was going to have to be spectacular. Well, he was spectacular.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 11:38 AM
He could destroy just as much being a facilitator and spot up shooter. Kyrie on ISO or basically any player outside of Lebron for that matter is not efficient offense. The Cavs were much better when the moved the ball.

I'm not denying that. It's something he has to work on for sure but he was 7-16 off the dribble. It's pretty clear to me that Kyrie is just that kind of player and if it works, then it works. Kyrie isn't the problem for the Cavs. If K.Love stepped up at the very least, we'd be looking at a different NBA Finals. Trading Love is the Cavs biggest problem. I'm not sure if LeBron is going to resign with Cleveland but I don't see him accepting Love.

Vee-Rex
06-20-2016, 11:38 AM
A big difference is Kyrie is NOT the primary option. Also no one is encouraging those awful possessions. Its why Lebron kept yelling at him. Game 1 of the Finals he had 15 possessions where he never passed that ball and was 1/15 of those possessions 0/9 when Lebron was on the court.

Lilliard leads his team to the playoffs and averages 7 asp. Wall is not a good scorer, Rubio sucks, and Conley is perfect when healthy.

The "Mamba" mentality is stupid. Use your team, its why they are there. Stop praising Kobe for being selfish.

GS used their team.

Listen, this is a star-driven league. And while team-ball is the best ball, if a player is so gifted and talented then you want them utilizing their skill-set.

Kyrie is probably the best ball-handler in the league, and the best at creating scoring opportunities for himself at that position. You may not like it, it may be ugly to you, and it may bother you, but the simple fact of the matter is he has benefited this Cavs team immensely.

You can whine about how many awful possessions you feel he has or not. Klay Thompson is a 2nd option and he has a ton of awful possessions. Kyrie needs to be aggressive and score, and that's his way of helping this Cavs team.

Lillard is a career 6.3 apg while Kyrie is 5.5, so don't give me any nonsense by implying he gets his team involved much more than Kyrie. Lillard led a team that was far better than any pre-2014 Kyrie-led team, and if you want me to start giving statistics then I'll drop 'em right on your head. Lillard's defense is just as bad as Kyrie, yet Kyrie's efficiency (both reg season and playoffs) sons Lillard's, and it sonned Lillard's efficiency even when Kyrie was the only star on his team. Lillard has never shot above 43% his entire career.

Lol @ the Mamba mentality being stupid. The same killer instinct that Kobe/Jordan had is stupid? Ahaha.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 11:40 AM
GS used their team.

Listen, this is a star-driven league. And while team-ball is the best ball, if a player is so gifted and talented then you want them utilizing their skill-set.

Kyrie is probably the best ball-handler in the league, and the best at creating scoring opportunities for himself at that position. You may not like it, it may be ugly to you, and it may bother you, but the simple fact of the matter is he has benefited this Cavs team immensely.

You can whine about how many awful possessions you feel he has or not. Klay Thompson is a 2nd option and he has a ton of awful possessions. Kyrie needs to be aggressive and score, and that's his way of helping this Cavs team.

Lillard is a career 6.3 apg while Kyrie is 5.5, so don't give me any nonsense by implying he gets his team involved much more than Kyrie. Lillard led a team that was far better than any pre-2014 Kyrie-led team, and if you want me to start giving statistics then I'll drop 'em right on your head. Lillard's defense is just as bad as Kyrie, yet Kyrie's efficiency (both reg season and playoffs) sons Lillard's, and it sonned Lillard's efficiency even when Kyrie was the only star on his team. Lillard has never shot above 43% his entire career.

Lol @ the Mamba mentality being stupid. The same killer instinct that Kobe/Jordan had is stupid? Ahaha.

Probably? He IS. No longer a debate. Curry has handles but he doesn't have Kyrie handles.

ewing
06-20-2016, 11:40 AM
He could destroy just as much being a facilitator and spot up shooter. Kyrie on ISO or basically any player outside of Lebron for that matter is not efficient offense. The Cavs were much better when the moved the ball.


a lot of the times someone has to get beat for someone else to be open for a spot up J.

twellner9
06-20-2016, 11:43 AM
GS used their team.]

Lol @ the Mamba mentality being stupid. The same killer instinct that Kobe/Jordan had is stupid? Ahaha.

Please do not be one of these people that compares Kobe to Jordan. And yes it is an awful mentality. Note that when Kobe refused the pass the ball the Lakers almost always lost. He won when he used his team! You take the best available shot. If you can beat your man 1v1 then go ahead. If you're facing a double team or tough matchup don't force the shot, pass it to an open man.

There's a reason Kobe had an awful career shooting percentage on game winning shots. Every team knew he would never pass the ball so they only had to focus on stopping one player.

Vee-Rex
06-20-2016, 11:53 AM
Please do not be one of these people that compares Kobe to Jordan. And yes it is an awful mentality. Note that when Kobe refused the pass the ball the Lakers almost always lost. He won when he used his team! You take the best available shot. If you can beat your man 1v1 then go ahead. If you're facing a double team or tough matchup don't force the shot, pass it to an open man.

There's a reason Kobe had an awful career shooting percentage on game winning shots. Every team knew he would never pass the ball so they only had to focus on stopping one player.

And that's exactly what Kyrie does. He beats his man 1v1. When he is double-teamed at the perimeter he attempts to pass it.

Kyrie isn't perfect - I wish he would give more effort on defense (he played very well on that end these last 3 games). Sometimes he struggles to figure out when it's best to pass and when it's best to simply be aggressive and score.

But there's no way he's not a top 10 PG, and you've gotta be kidding me if you believe that his aggressiveness and ability to hit tough shots is a detriment to his team.

Tony_Starks
06-20-2016, 11:53 AM
Finding flaws in a guy that played a HUGE part in delivering the Cavs first championship ever. The guy that hit the biggest shot of the series.

Crazy stuff man....

aman_13
06-20-2016, 11:58 AM
Who is? That does not matter.

There are plenty of scoring point guards in the league today but Irving shows very little when it comes to creating for others.

aman_13
06-20-2016, 12:02 PM
Finding flaws in a guy that played a HUGE part in delivering the Cavs first championship ever. The guy that hit the biggest shot of the series.

Crazy stuff man....

He was great, no doubt about that. The OP is asking the forum where Irving is ranked so it's not out the norm to evaluate his weaknesses in this type of discussion.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 12:03 PM
He was great, no doubt about that. The OP is asking the forum where Irving is ranked so it's not out the norm to evaluate his weaknesses in this type of discussion.

Well, we can look at it at different ways. Westbrook was great but his lack of shooting really made him inefficient. I'd put Kyrie at #4 but IMO, don't be surprised if he becomes the best PG in a few years. He's 24.

Vee-Rex
06-20-2016, 12:04 PM
Btw, I keep bringing up Lillard only to expose the double-standard in how people view him vs. Kyrie (not to trash him). I love Lillard's game.

Even when Kyrie was the #1 option, he was nearly identical to Lillard in terms of assists and defense.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 12:05 PM
Lillard is overrated. I've said it for awhile now. Great player but he's not Kyrie offensively and defensively, it's a wash.

Tony_Starks
06-20-2016, 12:07 PM
And that's exactly what Kyrie does. He beats his man 1v1. When he is double-teamed at the perimeter he attempts to pass it.

Kyrie isn't perfect - I wish he would give more effort on defense (he played very well on that end these last 3 games). Sometimes he struggles to figure out when it's best to pass and when it's best to simply be aggressive and score.

But there's no way he's not a top 10 PG, and you've gotta be kidding me if you believe that his aggressiveness and ability to hit tough shots is a detriment to his team.

How ridiculous is it that it's not even enough for a player to contribute largely to a championship, BUT he has to do it in a way that people feel is "playing the right way."

According to who's standards? What's the objective here?

I could've swore it was winning rings.

People can hate how Kobe did it, hate that Kyrie openly says he had the same mentality but what they can't do is ignore the results.

Gibby23
06-20-2016, 12:08 PM
Kyrie has always been a great offensive player, just hasn't been consistently healthy. Happy for him that he got a ring and played great in the process.

aman_13
06-20-2016, 12:08 PM
]

Well, we can look at it at different ways. Westbrook was great but his lack of shooting really made him inefficient. I'd put Kyrie at #4 but IMO, don't be surprised if he becomes the best PG in a few years. He's 24.

I certainly can't rule it out. He's incredibly talented.

Tony_Starks
06-20-2016, 12:09 PM
He was great, no doubt about that. The OP is asking the forum where Irving is ranked so it's not out the norm to evaluate his weaknesses in this type of discussion.

Evaluating weaknesses is one thing.

To say he's not even a top 10 pg goes into the realm of absurdity and dare I say...hating.

FlashBolt
06-20-2016, 12:09 PM
How ridiculous is it that it's not even enough for a player to contribute largely to a championship, BUT he has to do it in a way that people feel is "playing the right way."

According to who's standards? What's the objective here?

I could've swore it was winning rings.

People can hate how Kobe did it, hate that Kyrie openly says he had the same mentality but what they can't do is ignore the results.

I'm glad we can agree on this. The man just helped LeBron win the championship by playing ISO.. to hate on him and say it's detrimental is true in some parts but he DID it. Results matter. And what you're saying about people saying it's still not enough is why I always defend LeBron. He does everything he can and everyone still says it's not enough. Hopefully, this one shuts them up.

lavell12
06-20-2016, 12:16 PM
Did someone really say he isn't a top 10 PG lol.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-20-2016, 01:52 PM
Did someone really say he isn't a top 10 PG lol.

Right?

HandsOnTheWheel
06-20-2016, 01:54 PM
Wow I can't believe you guys are trashing Paul now.

I got Steph, Russ/Paul, then the next tier I think is up for debate (Lowry/Lillard/Irving/Wall). I'd probably have Irving as 4th or 5th.

Ok cool.

Chronz
06-20-2016, 07:50 PM
I've always thought Paul was overrated. He may be the better defender and all around type of player than Irving but the guy hasn't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs in his life playing on some pretty respectable teams, which really hurts his stature imo.

I judge players for how they show up on the big stage and what Kyrie did in these finals has been simply astounding. Maybe I'm putting too much into playoff success but playing at an MVP level on the biggest stage in the game can't go ignored here.

Being overrated isn't an argument, you can still be overrated and be better than another player, especially when the argument works both ways, I've always thought Irving was "overrated" and its cuz of people like you.

Playing on some pretty respectable teams doesn't change the fact that he too is playing some pretty respectable teams, more respectable in fact. Not seeing the relevance of not making an arbitrary round when the guy you're propping up failed to even make the playoffs, produces at a far inferior level and has had trouble making through an entire season in one piece. Let your boy prove something as a leader before putting him up against guys who have done more.

Im not seeing an MVP level, he outplayed Curry if thats what you mean, you think it counts enough to put him above Curry too? What about when TP was winning chips and ACTUAL MVP's?

How can you evaluate guys on the biggest stage if they've never been lucky enough to get there, you know, because they were actually their teams best player and werent playing alongside the guy whos made it 5 times before even meeting you and pushed the same team to 6 without you even in the lineup. Simply put, being a piece of a championship puzzle doesn't make you better than guys who can do more than get buckets.

Chronz
06-20-2016, 07:59 PM
Dropped 41 in a game to save the series, dagger shot to win the chip, and outplayed the MVP on the biggest stage.

Top 10 in the game, put some respect on his name.
Does outplaying the MVP make you better than the MVP?

MTar786
06-20-2016, 08:15 PM
kyrie has been under rated here for very long. ive been saying that for a couple years now. Kyrie has potential to be in the same league as curry and westbrook. third best after those two imo. I know u guys love cp3.. hes good but i feel hes been highly over rated for years now

JasonJohnHorn
06-20-2016, 09:25 PM
EDIT: Deleted this comment as is it not in response to this thread and is clearly out of place in response to this question and was was meant to generate a very different conversation which a mod, for some reason (????), thought was the same as this conversation and merged here?

RLundi
06-21-2016, 05:11 PM
IMO.

1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Paul
4. Lowry
5. Lillard
6. I. Thomas
7. Irving
8. K. Walker
9. Wall
10. R. Jackson

Still think Irving had a great Finals and Cavs absolutely don't win it without him, but he's been a little overrated for a couple seasons, and tie that with recency bias, and his position on top PG lists is sure to skyrocket. He's definitely a top 5 scorer at his position but his defense, decision-making, and passing each leave a little to be desired.

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 05:24 PM
Lol @ Lillard/Isaiah Thomas being better than Irving. That's funny..

Sportsguy9695
06-21-2016, 05:27 PM
I would rank him amoung the top 5 of all active point guards but as for all active players maybe a top 20 I'm not even sure about that

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 05:39 PM
I would rank him amoung the top 5 of all active point guards but as for all active players maybe a top 20 I'm not even sure about that

Definitely top 20 man.. This Finals alone puts him in that discussion. The playoffs alone puts him in top ten. Regular season doesn't say anything about Kyrie. He was injured and still getting used to the new rotations. I've seen enough to say that next season, he will be a top ten and top 5 point guard.

Redrum187
06-21-2016, 05:44 PM
Who would you guys rather have as your 2nd best player, Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson?

FlashBolt
06-21-2016, 05:46 PM
Who would you guys rather have as your 2nd best player, Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson?

Depends on who's on your team. Warriors need Klay more than Irving. Cleveland has J.R. but could use Kyrie more than what Klay would bring.

Chronz
06-21-2016, 09:27 PM
Heres what we know about Kyrie vs Lillard; Lillard has never missed the playoffs and by default has led his team more impressively as his teams best player and by that same token, this title affirms that Kyrie led his team more impressively as its 2nd best player. Which one of those matters most is up to you but both hold value.

Thing is, Lillard came in at a much older age so his poise stood out from day 1 so its crazy to think this is even debatable considering the age gap but Kyrie might blow him outta the water soon enough and emerge into the upper tier of PG's. Lillard now is better than any pre-Bron Kyrie we saw that much is certain.

I get that Kyrie had crap teammates but its not Dame's fault that when he was suppose to play with crap teammates, he got career years out of them and shocked the world. Kyrie was significantly less efficient than Lillard for their first 3 years overall, but then Bron joins the crew and Kyrie's efficiency explodes to a level on par with him. I wont hold this past RS against him too much. The question is, how much of that efficiency is due to the talent of his team now? Its possible he wouldn't lose much if any of it, that hes improved to the point where his increased production is a result of his own talent more than his teammates.

Looking at the splits with and without Bron, the numbers are staggering, Kyries scoring rate explodes, hypothetically speaking, if he were in Lillards position now and capable of sustaining his production with larger minutes, hes basically a 30PPG scorer with 6.5 dimes a game, he was at 28-6 last year. I would expect some decline but that kind of production far and away eclipses Lillard's. The Cavs are essentially playing at a .500 level in those minutes, just to be fair, I looked up Lillards numbers without CJ and its not as profound a difference aside from a few more assists, mostly cuz his role stays about the same. All 3 of the Big-3 members have greater stats without each other, to me thats a sign of extreme overlap and/or talent, its a great luxury to have no doubt.

The playoffs cemented Kyrie ahead of Lillard and the gap can only grow from here on out.

RLundi
06-21-2016, 10:06 PM
Lol @ Lillard/Isaiah Thomas being better than Irving. That's funny..

The majority of your posts are.

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 10:12 PM
Kyrie took his defense to a new level in the finals. Don't see why you keep bashing it. He wasn't bad at all. And he proved he could be clutch in the playoffs . Something cp3 has never done. With age considered,hes better then cp3 and the next regular season will cement that even more.

cp3 has been incredible in the ****ing playoffs... omg why do i argue with you

More-Than-Most
06-21-2016, 10:16 PM
Lebron/Curry/Westy/Durant/CP3/Blake/Khawi/Butler/PG/AD/Green/Klay/Aldridge/Cousins are all better but yes he is a top 20... Id have guys like Irving/Lilliard/Lowry/Wall/harden/howard all around the same area... I could be forgetting a few players... This is just off the top of my head

KingstonHawke
06-21-2016, 10:52 PM
1st tier:

Westbrook, Paul, Curry

2nd Tier:

Lillard, Wall, Irving

As far as players, he's in the top 20. Would probably be top 15 if Lebron wasn't on the team.

Tony_Starks
06-22-2016, 01:10 PM
How could anyone that watched the playoffs this year, or their careers for that matter, put Lowry over Kyrie with a straight face? Seriously.

Lowry had a stretch of some of the worst playoff performances ever. Historically bad.

Kyrie is superstar, team USA good. Lowry is contract year, fringe allstar good. Very fringe at that.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:16 PM
Do you guys not take into account his entire playoff dominance? 25 points per game on insane efficiency? 27 points on 47/40/94 shooting in the NBA Finals against the best PG and 2nd best player?? He played like the second best player in the playoffs. That definitely puts him above the other guys who just statstuff (Cousins). And sorry, I'm not putting Aldridge over Kyrie... he is the reason the Spurs lost to us. Also wouldn't put Klay over Kyrie if I'm building a team. Klay might be a better defender but I don't trust him to carry the offense.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:20 PM
Kyrie is the second best player in the entire Eastern Conference.

As for overall I think he's a top 10 player in the NBA.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:23 PM
Damn i forgot about lowry. Yeah you have to put his name in there too, carried the North to places they've never been. Gotta ponder on that one. Lowrys biggest problem is his health situation but that was kyries problem too. Given the age i guess we could go irving but at the top of their games, lowry has had better regular seasons. I Wonder how much bron would help with the injury toll.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:24 PM
Kyrie is the second best player in the entire Eastern Conference.

As for overall I think he's a top 10 player in the NBA.
Name ur 10

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:24 PM
Do you guys not take into account his entire playoff dominance? 25 points per game on insane efficiency? 27 points on 47/40/94 shooting in the NBA Finals against the best PG and 2nd best player?? He played like the second best player in the playoffs. That definitely puts him above the other guys who just statstuff (Cousins). And sorry, I'm not putting Aldridge over Kyrie... he is the reason the Spurs lost to us. Also wouldn't put Klay over Kyrie if I'm building a team. Klay might be a better defender but I don't trust him to carry the offense.

I agree with you. I put a lot of judgement into the Playoffs. Kyrie is pushing top 5 status. He averaged like 28 ppg in the Finals with amazing efficiency. He kept getting better as the year went.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 01:27 PM
Name ur 10

Alright bro,

Durant
Green
James
Westbrook
Curry
Leonard
Kyrie
Butler
Thompson
???? don't know about the 10th. I'll have to get back with you. Maybe Griffin

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:29 PM
How is Thompson and Butler top ten but James Harden isn't? And no Anthony Davis? You gotta rethink your list man

mngopher35
06-22-2016, 01:30 PM
Ya this run was incredible. He played poorly during the season but it appears that was almost all recovering from injury. I think he can be like 4-6 for me with Lowry/Lilliard if this defense/scoring run is what we keep seeing moving forward. I still think he would have issues individually running an offense with his play but not sure about that.

Chronz when you looked at those splits where kyrie had good stats but the team was .500 was it their offense or defense holding back those lineups? Is there an ortg associated with that time?

MonroeFAN
06-22-2016, 01:31 PM
1st tier:

Westbrook, Paul, Curry

2nd Tier:

Lillard, Wall, Irving

As far as players, he's in the top 20. Would probably be top 15 if Lebron wasn't on the team.

are CP3 & Westbrook > Lillard? Not sure why anymore, maybe WB, but Chris Paul hardly seems like the better player now.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:41 PM
Alright bro,

Durant
Green
James
Westbrook
Curry
Leonard
Kyrie
Butler
Thompson
???? don't know about the 10th. I'll have to get back with you. Maybe Griffin
Griffin hasnt even been his own teams best player. That's an objectively awful decision, think more about it.

What's more important to you, flash or impact on the game?

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:46 PM
are CP3 & Westbrook > Lillard? Not sure why anymore, maybe WB, but Chris Paul hardly seems like the better player now.
Go ask our resident blazer fans. they saw wat cp3 was doing to him. There is literally no argument you can make but feel free to try

RLundi
06-22-2016, 01:50 PM
How could anyone that watched the playoffs this year, or their careers for that matter, put Lowry over Kyrie with a straight face? Seriously.

Lowry had a stretch of some of the worst playoff performances ever. Historically bad.

Kyrie is superstar, team USA good. Lowry is contract year, fringe allstar good. Very fringe at that.

It's pretty simple to be honest. Lowry plays both sides of the ball. Kyrie is a great offensive player but defensively he's lacking. Kyrie is also an inferior passer, even when LeBron was on Miami Kyrie was subpar as a distributor. People have such recency bias. He played phenomenal in the playoffs for sure, but it doesn't erase his career to date, just like Lowry's poor playoff showing doesn't erase his career to date, just like Curry's poor Finals showing doesn't erase his career to date. This season, Lowry performer better than Kyrie, so in my opinion, I put him a hair above Kyrie.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:52 PM
Ya this run was incredible. He played poorly during the season but it appears that was almost all recovering from injury. I think he can be like 4-6 for me with Lowry/Lilliard if this defense/scoring run is what we keep seeing moving forward. I still think he would have issues individually running an offense with his play but not sure about that.

Chronz when you looked at those splits where kyrie had good stats but the team was .500 was it their offense or defense holding back those lineups? Is there an ortg associated with that time?

On off comparison on nba.com

Play with it for me, won't be on my pc anytime soon

RLundi
06-22-2016, 01:52 PM
Do you guys not take into account his entire playoff dominance? 25 points per game on insane efficiency? 27 points on 47/40/94 shooting in the NBA Finals against the best PG and 2nd best player?? He played like the second best player in the playoffs. That definitely puts him above the other guys who just statstuff (Cousins). And sorry, I'm not putting Aldridge over Kyrie... he is the reason the Spurs lost to us. Also wouldn't put Klay over Kyrie if I'm building a team. Klay might be a better defender but I don't trust him to carry the offense.

Tunnel vision and recency bias.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 01:55 PM
How is Thompson and Butler top ten but James Harden isn't? And no Anthony Davis? You gotta rethink your list man

Because if you're gonna hype up irving for the playoffs you have to punish those who missed it entirely. Your complaint for cousins holds true for ad too

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:57 PM
Tunnel vision and recency bias.

Nope. Guy stepped up and played amazing for nearly 21 playoff games. Giving him the credit he deserves. Let me know when Lowry steps up for the playoffs. Regular season, fine, but Irving wasn't even healthy for the regular season at all. How did Lowry outperform Kyrie again? Didn't see any of that.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 01:59 PM
Because if you're gonna hype up irving for the playoffs you have to punish those who missed it entirely. Your complaint for cousins holds true for ad too

And Thompson makes the playoffs without the Warriors? What's the difference here when we're comparing the two players? Kyrie played like the second best player in the entire playoffs but some would say he wasn't even the top 20 player in the NBA? That's pretty impressive. As for AD, yeah, he didn't make the playoffs but he does if he's on the Warriors. Draymond probably doesn't make the playoffs in the Pelicans. So what are we discussing here? Dwight made the playoffs too. Is he better than Cousins because Cousins didn't make it?

RLundi
06-22-2016, 02:12 PM
Nope. Guy stepped up and played amazing for nearly 21 playoff games. Giving him the credit he deserves. Let me know when Lowry steps up for the playoffs. Regular season, fine, but Irving wasn't even healthy for the regular season at all. How did Lowry outperform Kyrie again? Didn't see any of that.

You didn't see any of that because either you weren't watching or you're being a prisoner of the moment. The first 60-80 games of the season are suddenly worthless? Go look at their career arcs: Kyrie and Lowry have been essentially neck and neck since 2013, defense notwithstanding. This year, continuing to take into account defense, Lowry has marginally surpassed him. Honestly, how many Raptors or Cave games did you watch this season? Because it seems like you're basing your opinions of Kyrie and Lowry, not to mention Aldridge and Klay, on a single month of NBA playoffs. It's short-sighted.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:16 PM
You didn't see any of that because either you weren't watching or you're being a prisoner of the moment. The first 60-80 games of the season are suddenly worthless? Go look at their career arcs: Kyrie and Lowry have been essentially neck and neck since 2013, defense notwithstanding. This year, continuing to take into account defense, Lowry has marginally surpassed him. Honestly, how many Raptors or Cave games did you watch this season? Because it seems like you're basing your opinions of Kyrie and Lowry, not to mention Aldridge and Klay, on a single month of NBA playoffs. It's short-sighted.

What does previous seasons have to do with anything? I can't judge Kyrie for his regular season because he was just coming back from an injury. He stepped up in the playoffs. Call it prisoner of the moment, whatever you want. He scored 25 points per game on 50% shooting, second best player in the NBA during the postseason.

RLundi
06-22-2016, 02:23 PM
What does previous seasons have to do with anything? I can't judge Kyrie for his regular season because he was just coming back from an injury. He stepped up in the playoffs. Call it prisoner of the moment, whatever you want. He scored 25 points per game on 50% shooting, second best player in the NBA during the postseason.

If you have to ask that question, your problems run deeper than they should. You are completely ignoring body of work and basing all of your conclusions on a month. Ever heard of sample size?

I absolutely will call it prisoner of the moment, because it is. You still haven't responded to the question posed: how many games of each team have you watched?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:26 PM
If you have to ask that question, your problems run deeper than they should. You are completely ignoring body of work and basing all of your conclusions on a month. Ever heard of sample size?

I absolutely will call it prisoner of the moment, because it is. You still haven't responded to the question posed: how many games of each team have you watched?

Hey buddy... I never said Kyrie was above Lowry at all before this. It's way too close to differentiate between those two. You're somehow projecting an argument I never made. I'd put Kyrie over Lowry but again, I have them on the same tier. I honestly don't care if you think Lowry is over Kyrie. I'm not making any arguments against that other than I saw Kyrie step it up when it mattered.

Tier 1: Curry/CP3/WB
Tier 2: Kyrie/Wall/Lowry/Lillard

Vee-Rex
06-22-2016, 02:30 PM
It's apparent to me that people don't give a **** about efficiency when comparing these players (or I place high value on efficiency). As long as they get their 22 points and 6 assists on 13% shooting (but higher TS% because they live at the line) then people rate them high.

40% of Lowry's offensive possessions in the regular season ended in FT attempts. 40%!! And people wonder why he has absolutely terrible playoff performances when the defenses tighten up and the refs aren't whistle-happy? With TORONTO his PER average is 14 in the playoffs, .490 TS%.

And if you want to use the same defensive metrics (DBPM) that people use to kill Kyrie with, Kyle Lowry is an average defender (not elite). Kyrie's playoff defense is equivalent to Lowry's playoff defense.

Also, Kyrie's numbers (other than turnovers) pre-LeBron are nearly identical to his numbers post-LeBron. His FG% is .450 pre-LeBron, .458 post-LeBron.

TS% pre-LeBron is .55% and post-LeBron is .56%

I mean, it really isn't a HUGE difference.

Tony_Starks
06-22-2016, 02:34 PM
It's pretty simple to be honest. Lowry plays both sides of the ball. Kyrie is a great offensive player but defensively he's lacking. Kyrie is also an inferior passer, even when LeBron was on Miami Kyrie was subpar as a distributor. People have such recency bias. He played phenomenal in the playoffs for sure, but it doesn't erase his career to date, just like Lowry's poor playoff showing doesn't erase his career to date, just like Curry's poor Finals showing doesn't erase his career to date. This season, Lowry performer better than Kyrie, so in my opinion, I put him a hair above Kyrie.

Lowry is a solid defender but it's not like he's lock down or anything. His passing is better than Kyries but definitely not great. When his shot wasn't falling in the playoffs he was pretty useless. On his worst day at least Kyrie is still a threat that puts pressure on the D.

And it's not just recently with Lowry, look at his career in its entirety. There's a reason he quickly fell out of favor in Memphis and Houston. Was damn near shipped out of Torronto before he woke up, got in shape,changed his attitude, and actually started playing consistent basketball.

I don't think even Lowry himself believes he's better than Kyrie. And John Wall was publicly laughing about Lowry getting superstar money.

RLundi
06-22-2016, 02:35 PM
Hey buddy... I never said Kyrie was above Lowry at all before this. It's way too close to differentiate between those two. You're somehow projecting an argument I never made. I'd put Kyrie over Lowry but again, I have them on the same tier. I honestly don't care if you think Lowry is over Kyrie. I'm not making any arguments against that other than I saw Kyrie step it up when it mattered.

Tier 1: Curry/CP3/WB
Tier 2: Kyrie/Wall/Lowry/Lillard

So then what are you arguing? You asked how did Lowry outperform Kyrie this season. And it makes sense that you'd ask that question if you can't answer the question I posed to you about actually watching Raptors games, which I'm assuming you don't or haven't. Or honestly, you can go and analyze the statistics and get an indication. But if all you're doing is considering recent memory and living in the moment, well then stay in the dark.

Vee-Rex
06-22-2016, 02:40 PM
Despite feeling otherwise, I can live with someone putting Lowry over Kyrie.

But Isaiah Thomas? Lol. IT has limited playoff experience but he doesn't even have the whole 'defense' argument over Kyrie.

And I'm a firm believer that the playoffs exposes players for what they are. I don't care if the regular season is 500 games - when everyone is playing with their lives on the line (playoffs), players show their true worth

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:41 PM
And Thompson makes the playoffs without the Warriors?
Thats the point. You're the one who DQ's people who put up stats on bad teams in one argument and then focusing solely on the playoffs for another. Hate to break the news to you but the Cavs arguably make the FInals with or without Kyrie, so you suggesting a player doesnt make the playoffs without whatever cast you want to cite holds no water.


What's the difference here when we're comparing the two players? Kyrie played like the second best player in the entire playoffs but some would say he wasn't even the top 20 player in the NBA? That's pretty impressive. As for AD, yeah, he didn't make the playoffs but he does if he's on the Warriors. Draymond probably doesn't make the playoffs in the Pelicans. So what are we discussing here? Dwight made the playoffs too. Is he better than Cousins because Cousins didn't make it?

Hate to break the news (again) but DMC makes the playoffs if hes on the Dubs. What exactly is the difference. Again, this isn't the way I think, Im merely using your own logic against you. Im not a prisoner of the moment nor do I believe Kyrie was as good as you pretend. Like what exactly are you saying. CP3 is CLEARLY better than Kyrie, he only played like 3 games so hes DQ'd from the ranking simply because of his team, so why would anyone give a **** about that stature given your inconsistent nature in evaluating players?

RLundi
06-22-2016, 02:44 PM
Lowry is a solid defender but it's not like he's lock down or anything. His passing is better than Kyries but definitely not great. When his shot wasn't falling in the playoffs he was pretty useless. On his worst day at least Kyrie is still a threat that puts pressure on the D.

And it's not just recently with Lowry, look at his career in its entirety. There's a reason he quickly fell out of favor in Memphis and Houston. Was damn near shipped out of Torronto before he woke up, got in shape, and actually started playing consistent basketball.

I don't think even Lowry himself believes he's better than Kyrie. And John Wall was publicly laughing about Lowry getting superstar money.

You're bringing up irrelevant things. Who cares if Wall laughed? How do you know Lowry thinks Irving is better? Those aren't arguments, they're distractions from a lack there of. From 2013 to today, Irving and Lowry have been neck-and-neck offensively. But Lowry has been a clear shoulder above defensively their entire careers. This year, Lowry has surpassed him as a player. Lowry had a **** conference Finals and Irving had an amazing Finals and suddenly people are making proclamations that Kyrie is the second best player in the east, refusing to take into account body of work as opposed to a single month of play. Lowry is the better passer, rebounder, defender, higher TS%, higher PER, higher win shares percentage -- nearly everything he does is marginally better than Kyrie. Irving is the better scorer and playmaker, but it ends there.

All I'm saying is people are ****ing on Lowry because all they remember is his bad postseason and Irving's good one. Holy sample size Batman.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:45 PM
Despite feeling otherwise, I can live with someone putting Lowry over Kyrie.

But Isaiah Thomas? Lol. IT has limited playoff experience but he doesn't even have the whole 'defense' argument over Kyrie.

And I'm a firm believer that the playoffs exposes players for what they are. I don't care if the regular season is 500 games - when everyone is playing with their lives on the line (playoffs), players show their true worth

Yeah but the hesitation comes from the fact that NBA history is filled with guys who played well over their head in the playoffs given an opportunistic environment. Pressure and attention of the defense matters so much more in the post season. Its still the most important but we dont disregard the RS entirely either.

Tony_Starks
06-22-2016, 02:45 PM
Despite feeling otherwise, I can live with someone putting Lowry over Kyrie.

But Isaiah Thomas? Lol. IT has limited playoff experience but he doesn't even have the whole 'defense' argument over Kyrie.

And I'm a firm believer that the playoffs exposes players for what they are. I don't care if the regular season is 500 games - when everyone is playing with their lives on the line (playoffs), players show their true worth

Reasonable people can debate Kyrie vs Lowry, but the IT's and Rubios of the world is a HUGE insult.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:47 PM
So then what are you arguing? You asked how did Lowry outperform Kyrie this season. And it makes sense that you'd ask that question if you can't answer the question I posed to you about actually watching Raptors games, which I'm assuming you don't or haven't. Or honestly, you can go and analyze the statistics and get an indication. But if all you're doing is considering recent memory and living in the moment, well then stay in the dark.

If you check my previous posts, you'll see that I always had that same tier up. I said Kyrie outperformed Lowry because I'm not going to use the regular season when Kyrie was coming back from an injury. From what I saw, Kyrie played above the norm in the playoffs. WHEN IT MATTERED. That means more to me than a guy who played better in the regular season (despite his terrible offensive efficiency) compared to a guy who missed half the season recovering from a shattered kneecap.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:49 PM
Thats the point. You're the one who DQ's people who put up stats on bad teams in one argument and then focusing solely on the playoffs for another. Hate to break the news to you but the Cavs arguably make the FInals with or without Kyrie, so you suggesting a player doesnt make the playoffs without whatever cast you want to cite holds no water.


Hate to break the news (again) but DMC makes the playoffs if hes on the Dubs. What exactly is the difference. Again, this isn't the way I think, Im merely using your own logic against you. Im not a prisoner of the moment nor do I believe Kyrie was as good as you pretend. Like what exactly are you saying. CP3 is CLEARLY better than Kyrie, he only played like 3 games so hes DQ'd from the ranking simply because of his team, so why would anyone give a **** about that stature given your inconsistent nature in evaluating players?

I put Kyrie over Thompson because he performed well in the playoffs. I put Kyrie over Cousins because Cousins is a stat stuffer and a locker room issue. Kings should have been good enough to at least come close to the playoffs. Obviously you have to punish those who don't make it but I've seen Kyrie step it up and that matters a lot.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:51 PM
Lowry is a solid defender but it's not like he's lock down or anything. His passing is better than Kyries but definitely not great. When his shot wasn't falling in the playoffs he was pretty useless. On his worst day at least Kyrie is still a threat that puts pressure on the D.
Utterly false, on his worst day Kyrie is the type to get targeted defensively (lacking the pitbull mentality of less talented PG's like Lowry/CP3) and gives up points at a ridiculous clip and that tends to happen when his offense isn't going. So when neither have their offense going (due to injury or whatever) its actually Kyrie who loses most of his value.


And it's not just recently with Lowry, look at his career in its entirety. There's a reason he quickly fell out of favor in Memphis and Houston. Was damn near shipped out of Torronto before he woke up, got in shape,changed his attitude, and actually started playing consistent basketball.

I saw him throughout, what exactly are you condemning him for? He took better care of his body this year that much is true but injuries happened regardless.


I don't think even Lowry himself believes he's better than Kyrie. And John Wall was publicly laughing about Lowry getting superstar money.

Wall laughs that he didn't make an All-NBA team, you have him ahead of Lowry and Kyrie based on his unsubstantiated opinion? I dont think you can read minds so who gives a **** about that throwaway comment

Tony_Starks
06-22-2016, 02:54 PM
You're bringing up irrelevant things. Who cares if Wall laughed? How do you know Lowry thinks Irving is better? Those aren't arguments, they're distractions from a lack there of. From 2013 to today, Irving and Lowry have been neck-and-neck offensively. But Lowry has been a clear shoulder above defensively their entire careers. This year, Lowry has surpassed him as a player. Lowry had a **** conference Finals and Irving had an amazing Finals and suddenly people are making proclamations that Kyrie is the second best player in the east, refusing to take into account body of work as opposed to a single month of play. Lowry is the better passer, rebounder, defender, higher TS%, higher PER, higher win shares percentage -- nearly everything he does is marginally better than Kyrie. Irving is the better scorer and playmaker, but it ends there.

All I'm saying is people are ****ing on Lowry because all they remember is his bad postseason and Irving's good one. Holy sample size Batman.


Question: why hasn't Lowry made Team USA then? Not even included in the pool of 30 players considered?

Colangelo and Coach K probably know a tad bit more about hoops than you and I, why have they saw fit to take Kyrie instead of Lowry IF Lowry is indeed the superior player?

RLundi
06-22-2016, 02:55 PM
Despite feeling otherwise, I can live with someone putting Lowry over Kyrie.

But Isaiah Thomas? Lol. IT has limited playoff experience but he doesn't even have the whole 'defense' argument over Kyrie.

And I'm a firm believer that the playoffs exposes players for what they are. I don't care if the regular season is 500 games - when everyone is playing with their lives on the line (playoffs), players show their true worth

I have no qualms with putting Thomas below Kyrie. It was really difficult for me to decide between the two. You could easily flip flop the two and I'd agree either way. The reason I went with IT is because he absolutely carried that team that had no business being where it was in the first place. As the man, he put them totally on his back and saw better results than Kyrie ever had as the Cavs' best player. Same thing as Lowry for the most part, IT had a higher TS%, slightly more efficient, higher PER and WS%. But like I said, I'm fine with placing Kyrie a spot higher and Thomas lower. But there is absolutely an argument to be made for Thomas, no question.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 02:57 PM
You're bringing up irrelevant things. Who cares if Wall laughed? How do you know Lowry thinks Irving is better? Those aren't arguments, they're distractions from a lack there of. From 2013 to today, Irving and Lowry have been neck-and-neck offensively. But Lowry has been a clear shoulder above defensively their entire careers. This year, Lowry has surpassed him as a player. Lowry had a **** conference Finals and Irving had an amazing Finals and suddenly people are making proclamations that Kyrie is the second best player in the east, refusing to take into account body of work as opposed to a single month of play. Lowry is the better passer, rebounder, defender, higher TS%, higher PER, higher win shares percentage -- nearly everything he does is marginally better than Kyrie. Irving is the better scorer and playmaker, but it ends there.

All I'm saying is people are ****ing on Lowry because all they remember is his bad postseason and Irving's good one. Holy sample size Batman.
Its funny, in some ways Curry had a similar if not worse showing overall IMO, but nobody would be stupid enough to put Kyrie above him. So why would that argument hold any water when we just saw it happen with the MVP of the ****ing league. Suddenly Lowry cant make similar mistakes with all the attention on him.
Are we just suppose to ignore that Brons return coincided wtih Kyrie finally playing efficient basketball?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:58 PM
IT was great for the Celtics but there was no question their coaching and upgrades to the roster was a huge part of their success.. let's not forget that.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 02:59 PM
Its funny, in some ways Curry had a similar if not worse showing overall IMO, but nobody would be stupid enough to put Kyrie above him. So why would that argument hold any water when we just saw it happen with the MVP of the ****ing league. Suddenly Lowry cant make similar mistakes with all the attention on him.
Are we just suppose to ignore that Brons return coincided wtih Kyrie finally playing efficient basketball?

Curry's regular season dominance far outweighs Lowry's regular season.. Despite Curry's NBA playoffs performance, he was still better than Lowry. You can't compare that.

RLundi
06-22-2016, 03:01 PM
Question: why hasn't Lowry made Team USA then? Not even included in the pool of 30 players considered?

Colangelo and Coach K probably know a tad bit more about hoops than you and I, why have they saw fit to take Kyrie instead of Lowry IF Lowry is indeed the superior player?

Lol dude that stuff doesn't mean as much as you think. It's like the Gold Glove in baseball. If you're basing the best players in the NBA on Team USA play, just remember Tyson Chandler, Andre Iguodala, Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer and Emeka Okafor have all laced em up to represent this great country in Olympic basketball.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:02 PM
I put Kyrie over Thompson because he performed well in the playoffs. I put Kyrie over Cousins because Cousins is a stat stuffer and a locker room issue. Kings should have been good enough to at least come close to the playoffs. Obviously you have to punish those who don't make it but I've seen Kyrie step it up and that matters a lot.
I put Kyrie over Stephen Curry cuz he played well in the playoffs. See how stupid that sounds. I dont care about Klay, they are both on equal footing to me but you're arguments are all over the place.

Cousins being a stat stuffer was true for Irving, up until he joined Bron. Why would anyone disregard that advantage?

Kings weren't even close to good enough to make the playoffs, a team good enough to make the playoffs doesn't struggle to the degree that the Kings did without Cousins. A degree to which Kyries teams never struggled without him Seriously, look at Kyries team, they could make the ****ing FINALS WITHOUT HIM. "That matters alot" too.

Simply put, you cant prop up guys who played the well in their situation in the Finals and trash guys who put up numbers on bad teams, yet then go ahead and prop up a guy who missed the playoffs in AD.

THATS the contradiction you havent elaborated on.

Vee-Rex
06-22-2016, 03:03 PM
Yeah but the hesitation comes from the fact that NBA history is filled with guys who played well over their head in the playoffs given an opportunistic environment. Pressure and attention of the defense matters so much more in the post season. Its still the most important but we dont disregard the RS entirely either.

That's a fair enough position to take.

I still think Kyrie's scoring ability is of that "unstoppable" magnitude - even if defenses focused on him entirely they still couldn't stop him from being mostly efficient.

People can hold to the opinion that Kyrie without LeBron would be as inefficient as Lillard/Lowry but I wholeheartedly disagree. I just think they want to ignore Kyrie's superior efficiency for the same reason they ignore Lillard's defensive woes and praise him but heavily criticize Kyrie's defensive woes.

It's all about who people like and don't like. They don't like Kyrie's street-ball-style, and they like the "underdog/lonewolf" Lillard more. That's probably all it's about to be honest.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:04 PM
Lol dude that stuff doesn't mean as much as you think. It's like the Gold Glove in baseball. If you're basing the best players in the NBA on Team USA play, just remember Tyson Chandler, Andre Iguodala, Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer and Emeka Okafor have all laced em up to represent this great country in Olympic basketball.

Shane Battier is better than Lowry ever was yall.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:05 PM
That's a fair enough position to take.

I still think Kyrie's scoring ability is of that "unstoppable" magnitude - even if defenses focused on him entirely they still couldn't stop him from being mostly efficient.

People can hold to the opinion that Kyrie without LeBron would be as inefficient as Lillard/Lowry but I wholeheartedly disagree. I just think they want to ignore Kyrie's superior efficiency for the same reason they ignore Lillard's defensive woes and praise him but heavily criticize Kyrie's defensive woes.

It's all about who people like and don't like. They don't like Kyrie's street-ball-style, and they like the "underdog/lonewolf" Lillard more. That's probably all it's about to be honest.

You lost me. Lillar and Lowry are the ones who are more efficient. Care to elaborate before I read the rest?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 03:08 PM
I put Kyrie over Stephen Curry cuz he played well in the playoffs. See how stupid that sounds. I dont care about Klay, they are both on equal footing to me but you're arguments are all over the place.

Cousins being a stat stuffer was true for Irving, up until he joined Bron. Why would anyone disregard that advantage?

Kings weren't even close to good enough to make the playoffs, a team good enough to make the playoffs doesn't struggle to the degree that the Kings did without Cousins. A degree to which Kyries teams never struggled without him Seriously, look at Kyries team, they could make the ****ing FINALS WITHOUT HIM. "That matters alot" too.

Simply put, you cant prop up guys who played the well in their situation in the Finals and trash guys who put up numbers on bad teams, yet then go ahead and prop up a guy who missed the playoffs in AD.

THATS the contradiction you havent elaborated on.

Cousins is a stat stuffer because that Kings roster should not be 33-49. That roster collectively is better than what Irving had before James came back. Can you tell me why despite Cousins amazing numbers, they were far away from the playoffs? They weren't close to good enough but the Houston Rockets were? Can you seriously argue that?

I'm propping Irving because the regular season for him shouldn't count. He played coming off an injury that took 8 months away. He stepped up in the NBA Finals having being the 2nd best player in the postseason. I put him over Klay because despite the fact that they are relatively equal players, Kyrie's performance in the playoffs/Finals puts him above that edge. I don't see the contradiction at all. You're just mixing up reality with theory.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:08 PM
Curry's regular season dominance far outweighs Lowry's regular season.. Despite Curry's NBA playoffs performance, he was still better than Lowry. You can't compare that.
You've only made my argument stronger. If someone as good as Curry can play down to those standards, why would we hold it against an inferior player for similar sufferings? I actually CAN compare that.

RLundi
06-22-2016, 03:12 PM
Cousins is a stat stuffer because that Kings roster should not be 33-49. That roster collectively is better than what Irving had before James came back. Can you tell me why despite Cousins amazing numbers, they were far away from the playoffs? They weren't close to good enough but the Houston Rockets were? Can you seriously argue that?

I'm propping Irving because the regular season for him shouldn't count. He played coming off an injury that took 8 months away. He stepped up in the NBA Finals having being the 2nd best player in the postseason. I put him over Klay because despite the fact that they are relatively equal players, Kyrie's performance in the playoffs/Finals puts him above that edge. I don't see the contradiction at all. You're just mixing up reality with theory.

Was Kyrie a stat-stuffer before LeBron rejoined the Cavs?

This is why there is a need to look at the entire body of work. Irving's regular season this year wasn't far from his norm. You ask what is the point of looking at his previous seasons. It's to establish precedent. Otherwise, again, you're just being a prisoner of the moment and disregarding literally everything else.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:13 PM
Cousins is a stat stuffer because that Kings roster should not be 33-49.
Based on what?


That roster collectively is better than what Irving had before James came back.
Yeah and they also played in the tougher conference and reach a higher level of team play from all the objective barometers I've seen but feel free to explain why your opinion should hold more weight. Not to mention the fact that the Kings fell apart without Cousins to a higher degree.


Can you tell me why despite Cousins amazing numbers, they were far away from the playoffs? They weren't close to good enough but the Houston Rockets were? Can you seriously argue that?

LMFAO what? You mention the one team that underachieved the the highest degree and think that helps? Rockets had the talent to do better. Cousins could have won abit mroe but playoffs? LMFAO no.


I'm propping Irving because the regular season for him shouldn't count. He played coming off an injury that took 8 months away. He stepped up in the NBA Finals having being the 2nd best player in the postseason. I put him over Klay because despite the fact that they are relatively equal players, Kyrie's performance in the playoffs/Finals puts him above that edge. I don't see the contradiction at all. You're just mixing up reality with theory.

Must be nice to not have to worry until the playoffs and be on a team that could get the #1 seed without you. The players in question dont have that luxury, so long as that holds true, there is a strong argument agaisnt your prisoner of the moment stance.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 03:14 PM
You've only made my argument stronger. If someone as good as Curry can play down to those standards, why would we hold it against an inferior player for similar sufferings? I actually CAN compare that.

Wtf are you saying? No it doesn't. Curry is better than Kyrie because his regular season dominance is too much to ignore. Lowry wasn't dominant in the regular season. It was a good season and his playoffs season was just forgettable. Not even discounting his regular season game because it was clearly better than Irving's (for reasons he can't control) but not enough to warrant an argument at all. I don't want to discuss this further because you're just making it confusing.

RLundi
06-22-2016, 03:16 PM
You've only made my argument stronger. If someone as good as Curry can play down to those standards, why would we hold it against an inferior player for similar sufferings? I actually CAN compare that.

The thing is it seems like he's ignoring sample sizes. If he doesn't watch games and only considers what's in his recent memory, than his argument is naturally faulty.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 03:16 PM
Was Kyrie a stat-stuffer before LeBron rejoined the Cavs?

This is why there is a need to look at the entire body of work. Irving's regular season this year wasn't far from his norm. You ask what is the point of looking at his previous seasons. It's to establish precedent. Otherwise, again, you're just being a prisoner of the moment and disregarding literally everything else.
Kyrie wasn't stat-stuffing but his team wasn't that great. They were rebuilding. Last I checked, Rudy Gay+Rondo aren't scrubs. Entire body of work? Okay, I'll take precedent. Lowry was a bum when he was with the Rockets. You still wanna talk precedence?

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 03:18 PM
The thing is it seems like he's ignoring sample sizes. If he doesn't watch games and only considers what's in his recent memory, than his argument is naturally faulty.

What are you even arguing, dude? that I put Kyrie over Klay and Cousins or that I'm saying Kyrie is on the same tier as Lowry but I put him above Lowry because his playoffs performance was too good to ignore?

Vee-Rex
06-22-2016, 03:19 PM
You lost me. Lillar and Lowry are the ones who are more efficient. Care to elaborate before I read the rest?

Career RS FG%

Kyrie: .452
Lillard: .426
Lowry: .419 (and his last 3 years are just as bad, nowhere near Kyrie's in case you want to ignore the beginning of his career)

Career RS TS%

Kyrie: .555
Lillard: .559
Lowry: .551

Neither player is a better career 3pt% shooter than Kyrie, but they have much much higher FtR than Kyrie, and get a lot of free throws. That's what boosts their TS% up to his level.

Career Playoff FG%

Kyrie: .464
Lillard: .400
Lowry: .383

Career Playoff TS%

Kyrie: .574
Lillard: .539
Lowry: .502

Chronz
06-22-2016, 03:20 PM
Wtf are you saying? No it doesn't. Curry is better than Kyrie because his regular season dominance is too much to ignore.
I dont get what you're saying. If a guy as great as Curry can decline so far, why would we hold it against the likes of Lowry for suffering a similar fate, specifically against the exact same team?


Lowry wasn't dominant in the regular season. It was a good season and his playoffs season was just forgettable. Not even discounting his regular season game because it was clearly better than Irving's (for reasons he can't control) but not enough to warrant an argument at all. I don't want to discuss this further because you're just making it confusing.

For reasons he cant control? How come Lowry cant use that excuse with his injuries/struggles when hes been carrying a team ALL YEAR whereas Kyrie gets to rest and not even worry until the playoffs begin?

LOL, weren't you the guy who preached about how the Cavs would struggle without Bron? Im sorry but nobody is dumb enough to disregard history, I have Lowry and Kyrie side by side but your argument is really making me question that, maybe I should have Lowry comfortably ahead.

JeffroIce
06-22-2016, 03:21 PM
Why is Lowery so over rated now. Lowery is just a little above average pg that just happens to be in his prime. He's not even as good as Reggie Jackson or someone like that.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 03:22 PM
I dont get what you're saying. If a guy as great as Curry can decline so far, why would we hold it against the likes of Lowry for suffering a similar fate, specifically against the exact same team?


For reasons he cant control? How come Lowry cant use that excuse with his injuries/struggles when hes been carrying a team ALL YEAR whereas Kyrie gets to rest and not even worry until the playoffs begin?

LOL, weren't you the guy who preached about how the Cavs would struggle without Bron? Im sorry but nobody is dumb enough to disregard history, I have Lowry and Kyrie side by side but your argument is really making me question that, maybe I should have Lowry comfortably ahead.

A lack of understanding is what you suffer from. I always had Kyrie and Lowry on the same tier. If you have them side by side, then why is it so difficult for you to understand that I put Kyrie above Lowry just because he stepped up in the playoffs? And I've heard zero mention of Lowry having to have surgery or anything like that.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 04:25 PM
A lack of understanding is what you suffer from. I always had Kyrie and Lowry on the same tier. If you have them side by side, then why is it so difficult for you to understand that I put Kyrie above Lowry just because he stepped up in the playoffs? And I've heard zero mention of Lowry having to have surgery or anything like that.
What makes you think its so difficult? Im merely arguing against your logic.

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 04:27 PM
What makes you think its so difficult? Im merely arguing against your logic.

Not really but you can think you are.

Chronz
06-22-2016, 04:51 PM
lol ok?

Hawkeye15
06-22-2016, 05:16 PM
I dont get what you're saying. If a guy as great as Curry can decline so far, why would we hold it against the likes of Lowry for suffering a similar fate, specifically against the exact same team?


For reasons he cant control? How come Lowry cant use that excuse with his injuries/struggles when hes been carrying a team ALL YEAR whereas Kyrie gets to rest and not even worry until the playoffs begin?

LOL, weren't you the guy who preached about how the Cavs would struggle without Bron? Im sorry but nobody is dumb enough to disregard history, I have Lowry and Kyrie side by side but your argument is really making me question that, maybe I should have Lowry comfortably ahead.

Lowry is comfortably ahead of Irving.

YAALREADYKNO
06-22-2016, 05:54 PM
Curry
Cp3
Westbrook
Lillard
Kyrie

More-Than-Most
06-22-2016, 10:59 PM
Please stop.... Putting Kyrie on or above cousins when you are talking about top players is so ****ing disrespectful. Kyrie is great and top 4-7 PG mix and match any way youd like there is arguments but this nonsense of cousins being a stat stuffer is the most moronic **** I have ever heard.... How the **** can someone be a stat stuffer? Literally the dumbest thing thrown around about cousins that I have ever seen.... People call him a stat stuffer because he puts up godly stats but his team doesnt win? MAYBE ITS THE LACK OF ****ING TALENT AROUND SAID TEAM? Jesus christ

FlashBolt
06-22-2016, 11:24 PM
Cousins has a lack of talent in his team? I guess Rondo and Gay aren't good. And you've seen what happens when you put someone like Cousins in a championship team. Love put up better numbers than Cousins and look what happened to him. Stop buying into the notion that big numbers = elite. Houston Rockets made the playoffs. Sacramento had no excuse. If Cousins is the best center, then he needs to play like one and take his team there. Or you can just say he has no help.. that doesn't work. James carried his team for years with no help.

YAALREADYKNO
06-22-2016, 11:55 PM
wow some of y'all gave Kyrie as a top 2 pg in the NBA off a 3 game sample? Living in the moment much?
I'd still take curry, Paul, Westbrook, and Lillard over Kyrie

YAALREADYKNO
06-22-2016, 11:57 PM
Cousins has a lack of talent in his team? I guess Rondo and Gay aren't good. And you've seen what happens when you put someone like Cousins in a championship team. Love put up better numbers than Cousins and look what happened to him. Stop buying into the notion that big numbers = elite. Houston Rockets made the playoffs. Sacramento had no excuse. If Cousins is the best center, then he needs to play like one and take his team there. Or you can just say he has no help.. that doesn't work. James carried his team for years with no help.

I've been saying this about cousins. The most wins he's had was 33 this year. At least love actually broke the 40 win mark with the wolves

believeinNYK
06-23-2016, 02:47 AM
Curry
Westbrook
Cp3
Lillard
Irving
Lowry
Wall

RLundi
06-23-2016, 08:31 AM
Cousins has a lack of talent in his team? I guess Rondo and Gay aren't good. And you've seen what happens when you put someone like Cousins in a championship team. Love put up better numbers than Cousins and look what happened to him. Stop buying into the notion that big numbers = elite. Houston Rockets made the playoffs. Sacramento had no excuse. If Cousins is the best center, then he needs to play like one and take his team there. Or you can just say he has no help.. that doesn't work. James carried his team for years with no help.

I'm sorry but you've been exposed. Putting Kyrie so high on the best players list while denigrating other superior players like Cousins or Klay Thompson merely because Irving had a great Finals only proves ignorance.

FlashBolt
06-23-2016, 11:23 AM
I'm sorry but you've been exposed. Putting Kyrie so high on the best players list while denigrating other superior players like Cousins or Klay Thompson merely because Irving had a great Finals only proves ignorance.

I'm sorry but you can't prove it and then say I've been exposed. You're listening to one guy who doesn't deny it and another who said Kyrie isn't even a top ten PG. Go ahead and follow that. If you think Thompson is better than Irving, then prove it.

Heediot
06-23-2016, 11:29 AM
I don't care where he ranks. I'd take him on my team as a starting PG in the league any day. Even more-so when it matters most, post-April.

FlashBolt
06-23-2016, 11:35 AM
27/12 for Cousins. Only won 33 games? You tell me what happened there. Rondo and Gay? You know what LeBron would have done to get them back in 2010? Lol, you guys crack me up. OMG LOOK AT COUSINS, HUGE NUMBERS, MUST BE INSTANTLY GREAT! Yeah, and what has that gotten them? Kyrie Irving stepped up when it matters and all you guys can say is "living in the moment." So ****ing what? Did he not do what most said he couldn't do? hawkeye doesn't even think Irving is a top ten PG? Okay, either you really want to make LeBron look like he's carrying a bunch of scrubs or you just don't like him.

Vee-Rex
06-23-2016, 11:46 AM
27/12 for Cousins. Only won 33 games? You tell me what happened there. Rondo and Gay? You know what LeBron would have done to get them back in 2010? Lol, you guys crack me up. OMG LOOK AT COUSINS, HUGE NUMBERS, MUST BE INSTANTLY GREAT! Yeah, and what has that gotten them? Kyrie Irving stepped up when it matters and all you guys can say is "living in the moment." So ****ing what? Did he not do what most said he couldn't do? hawkeye doesn't even think Irving is a top ten PG? Okay, either you really want to make LeBron look like he's carrying a bunch of scrubs or you just don't like him.

hawkeye already said that he just doesn't like Irving.

When a man can't be objective and separate his dislike from the equation then I will seriously question his objectiveness in the future. That, or maybe he just doesn't watch enough of Irving regularly (and overly feed off the heavy media bashing). Irving has his flaws, but they don't come close to outweighing his talent and impact on the basketball court, whether you, your uncle, or your grandma likes him or not.

Tony_Starks
06-23-2016, 11:54 AM
At the end of the day a lot of Lebron fans have had the custom of discounting his teammates to justify them prematurely ranking him waaaaay too high. We saw it with Wade and Bosh, we saw it instantly with Love and Kyrie. ( some deservedly so with Love).

Well with this Finals performance you would think they don't have to do that anymore. Bron just put on a classic performance, the fact that Kyrie emerged as a bonfire superstar during this run and was the closer doesn't take away from his greatness.

They both needed each other to win, Kyrie to cover up for Lebrons offensive lapses and Bron to cover up Kyries defensive deficiencies.

At the end of the day the combination got you a chip, how can anyone nitpick that?

FlashBolt
06-23-2016, 11:55 AM
hawkeye already said that he just doesn't like Irving.

When a man can't be objective and separate his dislike from the equation then I will seriously question his objectiveness in the future. That, or maybe he just doesn't watch enough of Irving regularly (and overly feed off the heavy media bashing). Irving has his flaws, but they don't come close to outweighing his talent and impact on the basketball court, whether you, your uncle, or your grandma likes him or not.

When he said the net-negative thing, I thought he only meant when Irving wasn't scoring. You and I can disagree there but Irving does tend to lose confidence when his shot isn't falling. But when his shot is falling like it was the entire playoffs, how do you call him a net-negative? And I have no idea how some even put Thompson over Kyrie. That doesn't even make sense.

Chronz
06-23-2016, 01:54 PM
At the end of the day a lot of Kobe fans have had the custom of overrating Brons teammates to justify them prematurely ranking him waaaaay too low. We saw it with Wade and Bosh, we saw it instantly with Love and Kyrie. ( some deservedly so with Love).

Well with this Finals performance you would think they don't have to do that anymore. Bron just put on a classic performance, the fact that Kyrie emerged as a bonfide supporting all star during this run and was one of the closers doesn't take away from his greatness.

They both needed each other to win, Kyrie to give Bron a breather and Bron to cover up Kyries immense defensive deficiencies.

At the end of the day the combination got you a chip, why overrate players?
Fixed

Hate to break the news but you have to nit pick when discussing the games very best.

Tony_Starks
06-23-2016, 02:11 PM
Fixed

Hate to break the news but you have to nit pick when discussing the games very best.

Whatever gets you through the night chief.

Chronz
06-23-2016, 02:23 PM
Whatever gets you through the night chief.

Right, because inane theories keep me up at night.

Chronz
06-23-2016, 03:12 PM
When he said the net-negative thing, I thought he only meant when Irving wasn't scoring. You and I can disagree there but Irving does tend to lose confidence when his shot isn't falling. But when his shot is falling like it was the entire playoffs, how do you call him a net-negative? And I have no idea how some even put Thompson over Kyrie. That doesn't even make sense.
Hes putting too much emphasis on Kyries regular season failures where he held the team back thats why. It was worth it because he got up to speed for the playoffs and was fresher than anyone else playing but Love was in abit of a funk ever since Kyrie returned.

Klay on the other hand had a superb RS and up until the Finals, was basically the hero of GS. It makes sense if you care about an entire body of work and value defense even alil bit.

Tony_Starks
06-23-2016, 03:39 PM
hawkeye already said that he just doesn't like Irving.

When a man can't be objective and separate his dislike from the equation then I will seriously question his objectiveness in the future. That, or maybe he just doesn't watch enough of Irving regularly (and overly feed off the heavy media bashing). Irving has his flaws, but they don't come close to outweighing his talent and impact on the basketball court, whether you, your uncle, or your grandma likes him or not.

Ironic that Kobe is Kyries hero when the same people that want to harp on not liking his style of play..which contributed to a ring, often moan about how Kobe didn't play the right way....resulting in 5 championships.

Makes you wonder what they think the objective of basketball is.....

FlashBolt
06-23-2016, 04:47 PM
Hes putting too much emphasis on Kyries regular season failures where he held the team back thats why. It was worth it because he got up to speed for the playoffs and was fresher than anyone else playing but Love was in abit of a funk ever since Kyrie returned.

Klay on the other hand had a superb RS and up until the Finals, was basically the hero of GS. It makes sense if you care about an entire body of work and value defense even alil bit.

Love was in a funk because he doesn't fit this team. Kyrie coming back was always something Love had to adjust to and he didn't. That's not Kyrie's fault but just the fit. Cleveland should have traded Love during the midseason when they had the chance.

Klay was the hero of GS? Now you're just trying to ********.. My emphasis is on winning. Particularly this season, we've seen that regular season is a bore. The 73 win team had issues with 55 win teams but you're trying to tell me regular season impact overshadows a player who was the second best player in the playoffs and destroying them in the Finals? Sorry, not buying it. Klay isn't even the second best player on his own team.

FlashBolt
06-23-2016, 04:50 PM
If you're building a team right now and you'd rather have Klay after you just saw this season (playoffs matter, sorry, Warriors can pummel all the regular season games they want vs the Sixers), over Irving, then go ahead. I'll take the guy who shot 50% and scored 25 points per game in the playoffs and 27 points on 47% shooting in the Finals. You take the guy who collapsed in two NBA Finals and looked helpless when he couldn't knock down threes. And then you want to overrate Klay's defense as if he's even the third best defender on the Warriors? Okay.. lol. But hey, regular season > playoffs. There's nothing that says greatness better than when you beat the Sixers, Lakers, and Knicks!

Chronz
06-24-2016, 02:51 PM
Love was in a funk because he doesn't fit this team.
Doesn't change my point that Kyrie exasperated the process and its why the Cavs actually staggered his minutes with the starters more often.


Kyrie coming back was always something Love had to adjust to and he didn't. That's not Kyrie's fault but just the fit. Cleveland should have traded Love during the midseason when they had the chance.

I dont know what you're talking about with regards to any trade but we agree on Love having to adjust but I disagree on it not being Kyries fault, fault doesn't sound like the right word here tho. It sounds as if you want me to ignore the realities of his game and how it influences his teammates, this isn't a negative, its a result of his game and thats it.


Klay was the hero of GS? Now you're just trying to ********..
Great argument. I assure you I dont have to _insert_swear_word_here_ .


My emphasis is on winning.
My emphasis is on a players impact towards winning and I dont lose sight of the big picture. Like how do we separate Brons influence on Kyries here? You never did answer me, weren't you the guy who used to argue about how the Cavs struggled to win without Bron? Are we suppose to ignore all those struggles and the 3 other years where Kyrie failed to lead his team anywhere?


Particularly this season, we've seen that regular season is a bore. The 73 win team had issues with 55 win teams but you're trying to tell me regular season impact overshadows a player who was the second best player in the playoffs and destroying them in the Finals? Sorry, not buying it. Klay isn't even the second best player on his own team.

It being a bore doesn't change its relevance and how it acts as a determiner of player ability. I mean, do you have any idea how many mistakes GM's would make if they only looked at the smallest, most circumstantial sample sizes that come from the playoffs and completely ignore the other 95% of the basketball games being played.

You dont have to buy a thing but your argument is woefully inept. Ive been watching basketball too long to care about your arbitrary standings. Newsflash, even if Klay isn't his teams 2nd best player (its pretty close tho) he could still theoretically be a superior player. Personally, I have them on the same tier, its not like either one has a rock solid case over the other. Yes, Kyrie played better than Klay, but as has been explained to you, if a player the caliber of Curry can have a stretch of play like this, why wouldn't someone beneath him be capable? Harden no showed even more and hes another superior player to Kyrie.


And can you please stop bringing up Rudy Gay and Rondo, its almost as if you're clueless to the FACT that the teams that jettisoned those players improved immediately, for someone who cares about winning, you're pretty selective with it.

Chronz
06-24-2016, 02:56 PM
If you're building a team right now and you'd rather have Klay after you just saw this season (playoffs matter, sorry, Warriors can pummel all the regular season games they want vs the Sixers), over Irving, then go ahead. I'll take the guy who shot 50% and scored 25 points per game in the playoffs and 27 points on 47% shooting in the Finals. You take the guy who collapsed in two NBA Finals and looked helpless when he couldn't knock down threes. And then you want to overrate Klay's defense as if he's even the third best defender on the Warriors? Okay.. lol. But hey, regular season > playoffs. There's nothing that says greatness better than when you beat the Sixers, Lakers, and Knicks!

Strawman arguments dont matter in grown up land. Where did I suggest hes the Warriors best defender? LMFAO, you dont seem to understand the comparison isn't Klay vs the Dubs, its vs Kyrie.

Nobody ever said the playoffs dont matter so yet another empty line. What IS being said is you dont completely ignore the regular season and for good reason. Personally, I would have Kyrie ahead but I couldn't fault someone for taking Klay and I could be wrong but the way you word things makes it sound likes it not even a comparison. What exactly have either proved? Without Bron, what has Kyrie accomplished. With Bron, why did the team struggle in the games/minutes he was out? Whereas Klay and Dray could lead their team to actual playoff victories without the MVP of the league? If you're going to blame the talent pool then you should understand why focusing on winning the way you do leaves room for debate.

Chronz
06-24-2016, 03:03 PM
Yeah I take it back, Klay isn't close to Draymond. Their productive rates are similar but in terms of intangible worth and impact stats, its clearly DG.

naps
06-24-2016, 03:58 PM
At the end of the day a lot of Lebron fans have had the custom of discounting his teammates to justify them prematurely ranking him waaaaay too high. We saw it with Wade and Bosh, we saw it instantly with Love and Kyrie.

Sounds pretty ironic. Hello Pau Gasol! Hello Odom! Hello Artest! Hello Bynum! Kobe fans did that for years during that 3 year run.

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 04:24 PM
Strawman arguments dont matter in grown up land. Where did I suggest hes the Warriors best defender? LMFAO, you dont seem to understand the comparison isn't Klay vs the Dubs, its vs Kyrie.

Nobody ever said the playoffs dont matter so yet another empty line. What IS being said is you dont completely ignore the regular season and for good reason. Personally, I would have Kyrie ahead but I couldn't fault someone for taking Klay and I could be wrong but the way you word things makes it sound likes it not even a comparison. What exactly have either proved? Without Bron, what has Kyrie accomplished. With Bron, why did the team struggle in the games/minutes he was out? Whereas Klay and Dray could lead their team to actual playoff victories without the MVP of the league? If you're going to blame the talent pool then you should understand why focusing on winning the way you do leaves room for debate.

You spend nearly ten posts arguing nonsense and ultimately agree that Kyrie is better. I never said Kyrie was way better. I was making a point that Kyrie IS better because he came into the playoffs and proved so. You put more emphasis on the regular season or playoffs? Because I'm pretty sure Kyrie just played 21 playoff games and was the 2nd best player. What has Kyrie accomplished? What has Klay accomplished? Kyrie+Draymond could lead a team too, what are you trying to say here? And you keep arguing Klay's defense but it's easy to say when his team is filled with elite defenders from Dray, Bogut, to Iggy. And like I said, you saw how empty Klay is when his three point shot isn't falling. He's a no-show. Same reason why I said Harden on the Warriors would be a better team. Your post is filled with "No one ever said" or "I never said." Can you find where I said regular season doesn't matter? Can you find where I tried to make it sound like it's not a comparison? Keep using the strawman word.. it definitely makes you "legit."

rhymeratic
06-24-2016, 05:23 PM
He's a top 15 player but it's hard to rank him as a PG because he's so much of a scoring PG. I dislike these type of rankings. IF you're talking only about his scoring ability than year amongst scoring PGs he's probably top 3 but as an overall PG... I can't in good conscious put him as top 5.

Chronz
06-24-2016, 05:44 PM
Sounds pretty ironic. Hello Pau Gasol! Hello Odom! Hello Artest! Hello Bynum! Kobe fans did that for years during that 3 year run.

Very true. I cant tell you how often they cite Pau's lack of playoff wins yet guys who dont even make the playoffs to begin with are suppose to be icons. Its a generalization obviously but those people exist.

Chronz
06-24-2016, 06:26 PM
You spend nearly ten posts arguing nonsense and ultimately agree that Kyrie is better.
Its only nonsense if you refuse to understand the scope of my argument. Again, its your nonsensical logic that Im against, plz try to keep up.


I never said Kyrie was way better. I was making a point that Kyrie IS better because he came into the playoffs and proved so.
He didn't prove anything, we dont completely discount the regular season nor the loads they carried ALL YEAR.

When you say things like "2nd best player in the post season", really what does that mean? Who is he competing against? Guys like CP3 and Blake were in the postseason but couldn't play beyond 3 games, both are FAR superior players to him but because they were injured they are DQ'd. AD missed the playoffs entirely, Curry was hurt, Westbrook and Durant had a tougher road overall. So many superior players dont get to be the "2nd best player" in the post season simply because of factors beyond their control. So its truly an irrelevant title UNLESS you're the type to completely dismiss the RS and focus solely on a few games.


You put more emphasis on the regular season or playoffs?
Depends on the circumstances of the players in question, that you think life is so black and white are why you come off as extreme. Heres Kyries circumstance, his team was the #1 seed without him and he stunted their effectiveness when he was trying to force his way into game speed, whereas Klay played at a significantly higher level ALL YEAR and didnt have the luxury of coming into the post season with fresher legs. Up until G.3 of the Finals, he was having the superior year BY FAR. Then the last few games happened. Thats why what they do from here on out will "PROVE" their worth, IMO anyways.

I use the RS to set the gauge and then the playoffs to see if they consistently decline/ascend with the pressure. And defensive pressure is not the same for everyone. Like Curry and Damian Lillard get the kind of defensive attention from the Clippers in their respective playoff series that Kyrie simply doesn't have to worry about because he either doesn't command that attention or his teammates make it so that he doesn't have to worry about that kind of attention. You really never answer the question I ask you but Ill try again, how do you separate the Bron factor from his success?


Because I'm pretty sure Kyrie just played 21 playoff games and was the 2nd best player.
And guess what, hes not even close to being the 2nd best PG much less the leagues 2nd best player. You being pretty sure of something is irrelevant, what matters is the importance of the fact. Guess what, the playoffs dont matter so much that you proclaiming this doesn't outweigh an entire seasons+playoffs worth of performances.


What has Kyrie accomplished? What has Klay accomplished? Kyrie+Draymond could lead a team too, what are you trying to say here?
Klay accomplished an ability to win without his more productive MVP whereas Kyrie has struggled to win his entire career before Bron and even now in the games/minutes he misses. Its pretty close man, neither has really proven any sort of separation yet.


And you keep arguing Klay's defense but it's easy to say when his team is filled with elite defenders from Dray, Bogut, to Iggy.
Its easy to say what? You're not making an argument here, having great defenders around you doesn't negate your own defensive contributions. Its not like Steph Curry is an elite/versatile defender besides having the same teammates. Its not like teams weren't hitting shots at a higher clip vs Kyrie despite having top-10(at the least) defense that he contributes nothing to.


And like I said, you saw how empty Klay is when his three point shot isn't falling. He's a no-show.
Wait so your saying when a sniper isn't hitting his target, hes less effective ? GASP. Similar phenomena applies to Kyrie, we dont discount the entire body of work. Use that argument with Kyrie, when his offense is off hes even more of a negative, as we saw in games 1 and 2 when the Dubs were scoring at a 70% clip on him. So if we use the argument of whos a better player when their shots aren't going in, guess what, Klay provides more.


Same reason why I said Harden on the Warriors would be a better team. Your post is filled with "No one ever said" or "I never said." Can you find where I said regular season doesn't matter?
What? Im confused how we got here but genuinely curious what you mean by this, so you're admitting that the Warriors would be a better team if they swapped out Klay for the guy who no showed even harder in his Finals and hasn't really shun in the post season? Im glad you're open minded, I would agree with that one too simply because I think hes a better player and believe in the fit regardless, but whatever happened to the playoffs "proving" things? Klay outplayed Harden in their series this year and won it without Curry really playing.



Can you find where I tried to make it sound like it's not a comparison? Keep using the strawman word.. it definitely makes you "legit."

How come you still wont answer me if you were one of those dudes who kept arguing about the Cavs inability to win without Bron?

You make it sound like its not a comparison when you use words like " Now you're just trying to ********." even tho it was a factual statement given his heroic efforts when facing elimination +his superior production for his team up until the Finals. Dude was averaging 26PPG with a 60TS% with great defense against the West and with his MVP in/out of the lineup, so all that and you scoff that off with simpleminded cussing? LMFAO yeah thats truly making it seem like you think its a legit argument. Definitely unbiased and not totally ignoring the RS.



But hey maybe you can explain how this post is suppose to be objective:


If you're building a team right now and you'd rather have Klay after you just saw this season (playoffs matter, sorry, Warriors can pummel all the regular season games they want vs the Sixers), over Irving, then go ahead. I'll take the guy who shot 50% and scored 25 points per game in the playoffs and 27 points on 47% shooting in the Finals. You take the guy who collapsed in two NBA Finals and looked helpless when he couldn't knock down threes. And then you want to overrate Klay's defense as if he's even the third best defender on the Warriors? Okay.. lol. But hey, regular season > playoffs. There's nothing that says greatness better than when you beat the Sixers, Lakers, and Knicks!

In that post you completely dismiss the RS and focus on his Finals performance. Hot take bro

Chronz
06-24-2016, 06:32 PM
lol at pummeling the 76ers when the Dubs play them only twice a year and have actually been at their best the greater the opponent. IIRC they had most of their losses to substandard teams

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 07:27 PM
Not going to bother reading your post. I never put Irving above CP3/Blake. I'm comparing Klay vs Kyrie. You said Kyrie is better. I don't need to go back and forth. He's better because he was the 2nd best player in the NBA Playoffs/NBA Finals. He's better because he doesn't collapse when he doesn't knock down threes. He's better because he's better. Is that simple enough for you? Regular season doesn't mean more to me than the playoffs. You decide which does.

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 07:28 PM
lol at pummeling the 76ers when the Dubs play them only twice a year and have actually been at their best the greater the opponent. IIRC they had most of their losses to substandard teams

But those are the games that matter to you. The ones where they beat Sixers, Lakers, Kings. Really impressive.

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 07:35 PM
So saying Kyrie is the 2nd best player in the Playoffs is incorrect? I'm comparing Klay vs Kyrie here. I'd take Kyrie over the regular season and playoffs. I couldn't compare them in the regular season for obvious reasons but the playoffs established that for me. If you value Kyrie over Klay for other purposes, that's your own objection. Klay is a system player. Kyrie is a superstar.

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 07:40 PM
Was Kyrie a stat-stuffer before LeBron rejoined the Cavs?

This is why there is a need to look at the entire body of work. Irving's regular season this year wasn't far from his norm. You ask what is the point of looking at his previous seasons. It's to establish precedent. Otherwise, again, you're just being a prisoner of the moment and disregarding literally everything else.


Its only nonsense if you refuse to understand the scope of my argument. Again, its your nonsensical logic that Im against, plz try to keep up.


He didn't prove anything, we dont completely discount the regular season nor the loads they carried ALL YEAR.

When you say things like "2nd best player in the post season", really what does that mean? Who is he competing against? Guys like CP3 and Blake were in the postseason but couldn't play beyond 3 games, both are FAR superior players to him but because they were injured they are DQ'd. AD missed the playoffs entirely, Curry was hurt, Westbrook and Durant had a tougher road overall. So many superior players dont get to be the "2nd best player" in the post season simply because of factors beyond their control. So its truly an irrelevant title UNLESS you're the type to completely dismiss the RS and focus solely on a few games.


Depends on the circumstances of the players in question, that you think life is so black and white are why you come off as extreme. Heres Kyries circumstance, his team was the #1 seed without him and he stunted their effectiveness when he was trying to force his way into game speed, whereas Klay played at a significantly higher level ALL YEAR and didnt have the luxury of coming into the post season with fresher legs. Up until G.3 of the Finals, he was having the superior year BY FAR. Then the last few games happened. Thats why what they do from here on out will "PROVE" their worth, IMO anyways.

I use the RS to set the gauge and then the playoffs to see if they consistently decline/ascend with the pressure. And defensive pressure is not the same for everyone. Like Curry and Damian Lillard get the kind of defensive attention from the Clippers in their respective playoff series that Kyrie simply doesn't have to worry about because he either doesn't command that attention or his teammates make it so that he doesn't have to worry about that kind of attention. You really never answer the question I ask you but Ill try again, how do you separate the Bron factor from his success?


And guess what, hes not even close to being the 2nd best PG much less the leagues 2nd best player. You being pretty sure of something is irrelevant, what matters is the importance of the fact. Guess what, the playoffs dont matter so much that you proclaiming this doesn't outweigh an entire seasons+playoffs worth of performances.


Klay accomplished an ability to win without his more productive MVP whereas Kyrie has struggled to win his entire career before Bron and even now in the games/minutes he misses. Its pretty close man, neither has really proven any sort of separation yet.


Its easy to say what? You're not making an argument here, having great defenders around you doesn't negate your own defensive contributions. Its not like Steph Curry is an elite/versatile defender besides having the same teammates. Its not like teams weren't hitting shots at a higher clip vs Kyrie despite having top-10(at the least) defense that he contributes nothing to.


Wait so your saying when a sniper isn't hitting his target, hes less effective ? GASP. Similar phenomena applies to Kyrie, we dont discount the entire body of work. Use that argument with Kyrie, when his offense is off hes even more of a negative, as we saw in games 1 and 2 when the Dubs were scoring at a 70% clip on him. So if we use the argument of whos a better player when their shots aren't going in, guess what, Klay provides more.


What? Im confused how we got here but genuinely curious what you mean by this, so you're admitting that the Warriors would be a better team if they swapped out Klay for the guy who no showed even harder in his Finals and hasn't really shun in the post season? Im glad you're open minded, I would agree with that one too simply because I think hes a better player and believe in the fit regardless, but whatever happened to the playoffs "proving" things? Klay outplayed Harden in their series this year and won it without Curry really playing.



How come you still wont answer me if you were one of those dudes who kept arguing about the Cavs inability to win without Bron?

You make it sound like its not a comparison when you use words like " Now you're just trying to ********." even tho it was a factual statement given his heroic efforts when facing elimination +his superior production for his team up until the Finals. Dude was averaging 26PPG with a 60TS% with great defense against the West and with his MVP in/out of the lineup, so all that and you scoff that off with simpleminded cussing? LMFAO yeah thats truly making it seem like you think its a legit argument. Definitely unbiased and not totally ignoring the RS.



But hey maybe you can explain how this post is suppose to be objective:



In that post you completely dismiss the RS and focus on his Finals performance. Hot take bro

No, in that post I gave you the facts. How you want to use them is your choice. I already said I put more value in the playoffs. Who was the better player this season? Curry with the better regular season by far or LeBron with the better playoff season? See how that works, buddy? Never did I ever discredit the regular season. I'm merely suggesting that Kyrie's performance in the playoffs means more to me than what he didn't do in the regular season for obvious reasons. You're so high on Klay but won't tell me what he does well other than shoot the ball and defend. When he can't shoot, his scoring options are limited.

FlashBolt
06-24-2016, 07:43 PM
Chronz, you and I both know Kyrie's scoring ability is greater than Klay's. If Kyrie's three pointer isn't falling, he can score anywhere still. Klay heavily relies on his three point shooting ability because he's not that great at attacking the rim or creating his own shot without having defenders stick him when he's hot on the three.

Chronz
06-25-2016, 12:25 AM
K well, Im gonna put out my rankings. Lets do a top 30 list and see where we differentiate cuz I dont get ur logic at all.

LA_Raiders
06-26-2016, 03:55 PM
Well; he beat curry up, so I say above him.

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 09:37 AM
Sounds pretty ironic. Hello Pau Gasol! Hello Odom! Hello Artest! Hello Bynum! Kobe fans did that for years during that 3 year run.

You realize out of the players you mentioned only one is even still in the league? Artest is now basically a coach, Bynum was last seen injured rocking a perm and Odom is in desperate need of rehab and trying to get in a Euroleague.

As a matter of fact FUN FACT: out of that team that went to 3 straight Finals Gasol, Ariza and sometimes Sasha are the only ones even still in league.

What a Superteam!

RLundi
06-27-2016, 10:19 AM
You realize out of the players you mentioned only one is even still in the league? Artest is now basically a coach, Bynum was last seen injured rocking a perm and Odom is in desperate need of rehab and trying to get in a Euroleague.

What a Superteam!

Btw did you see that Lowry is on Team USA?

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 10:23 AM
Btw did you see that Lowry is on Team USA?

I saw that.

I found his last minute inclusion after the superior preferred talent passed on the opportunity to be mildly impressive!

RLundi
06-27-2016, 10:31 AM
I'm sorry but you can't prove it and then say I've been exposed. You're listening to one guy who doesn't deny it and another who said Kyrie isn't even a top ten PG. Go ahead and follow that. If you think Thompson is better than Irving, then prove it.

Lol who am I listening to? I gave you MY opinions, produced MY list of top 10 PGs, and gave you MY evidence for why Lowry is better than Kyrie. You haven't given anything at all except a month of basketball as evidence. I don't have to follow anything. Everything I've said I've already given you a rationale for. Admittedly, I have no stake in a Irving/Klay debate. I honestly don't care and I could be very wrong about it either way. After looking at the numbers, I'd say Irving is more productive. But my central argument hasn't changed -- both my top 10 PG list and my assertion that Lowry is better than Irving are based on evidence that I've already given you. You have not given a single shred of proof.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 10:34 AM
I saw that.

I found his last minute inclusion after the superior preferred talent passed on the opportunity to be mildly impressive!

Lol I honestly enjoy your sarcasm on these boards, no lie.

But it throws your entire argument completely down the drain. It was already pretty faulty and limited at best, but now it's nonexistent; Lowry is an Olympian, and everything else still applies: better defender, more efficient, better passer, better rebounder, and higher TS%.

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 10:50 AM
Lol I honestly enjoy your sarcasm on these boards, no lie.

But it throws your entire argument completely down the drain. It was already pretty faulty and limited at best, but now it's nonexistent; Lowry is an Olympian, and everything else still applies: better defender, more efficient, better passer, better rebounder, and higher TS%.

Thanks!

I get it but I mean doesn't the fact that he was pretty much a last resort after CP3, Steph, Lillard declined and them being unsure about Kyrie say something?

CP3 actually campaigned for him...

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 11:20 AM
Lol I honestly enjoy your sarcasm on these boards, no lie.

But it throws your entire argument completely down the drain. It was already pretty faulty and limited at best, but now it's nonexistent; Lowry is an Olympian, and everything else still applies: better defender, more efficient, better passer, better rebounder, and higher TS%.

Do you mind sharing these statistics on how Lowry is more efficient? Because according to basketball reference you're wrong.

Also, in the playoffs Lowry is an equivalent defender.

FlashBolt
06-27-2016, 11:50 AM
Lol who am I listening to? I gave you MY opinions, produced MY list of top 10 PGs, and gave you MY evidence for why Lowry is better than Kyrie. You haven't given anything at all except a month of basketball as evidence. I don't have to follow anything. Everything I've said I've already given you a rationale for. Admittedly, I have no stake in a Irving/Klay debate. I honestly don't care and I could be very wrong about it either way. After looking at the numbers, I'd say Irving is more productive. But my central argument hasn't changed -- both my top 10 PG list and my assertion that Lowry is better than Irving are based on evidence that I've already given you. You have not given a single shred of proof.

You've shown me that you'd rather have Lowry based on regular season numbers but I've shown you that Kyrie Irving was better in the playoffs. Hence, I'd rather have Irving because he performed in the playoffs and I couldn't base it off regular season due to his injuries. Lowry is not injured. He was not 100% but he's coming into the Olympics. If he were injured, he should sit out. So I honestly don't care how you place Lowry or Irving but please stop trying to make it seem as if you saying Lowry is better, actually makes him better. The world saw how great Irving can be and will be. Lowry chokes in the playoffs. You take that guy. I'll take the guy who I can count on when it matters. Okay?

I hate to say it since most Toronto "fans" in Canada aren't really NBA fans but good luck winning with this guy:

https://gyazo.com/3e75928918d13e60da6170ab50d0cb51

He under-performs EVERY time. Yeah, he wins you regular season games! Awesome! And then when it comes time to win championship rings, he just disappears! Go ahead, take that guy. Seriously.

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 12:28 PM
Another thing on Kyrie to keep in mind: prior to this the biggest knock on him was supposedly he was a good player but wouldn't be one "when it mattered" in the playoffs and that his style of play wasn't conducive to "winning basketball."

Well those things have been dispelled in a major way.

My knock on him has always been only one thing, can he stay healthy.,

Other than that I'd take him as my pg any day.

FlashBolt
06-27-2016, 12:42 PM
Another thing on Kyrie to keep in mind: prior to this the biggest knock on him was supposedly he was a good player but wouldn't be one "when it mattered" in the playoffs and that his style of play wasn't conducive to "winning basketball."

Well those things have been dispelled in a major way.

My knock on him has always been only one thing, can he stay healthy.,

Other than that I'd take him as my pg any day.

I do agree with them that the regular season matters and that when Kyrie isn't scoring, it's tough to put much value in him because he's not a great playmaker or defender. Those two things are needed and it's why Westbrook can have bad shooting games and still be the best point guard out there. But the thing is, Kyrie did show up. He put on a special performance for the playoffs (21 games -- which is about 40% of the regular season games he did play this season), and dominated. Easily looked like the best point guard and second best player while also having a chance to be the Finals MVP until LeBron's performances in games 5-7 and his total impact were just too much to ignore. But let me guess, we're going to say Lowry is definitively better than Kyrie because....? PER36 wise, their numbers weren't much different and that doesn't even account for the fact that Kyrie was just coming back from an 8 month layoff to recover. Lowry chokes in the playoffs. Sorry, I don't care how good in the regular season you are (where you're playing teams like Sixers/Lakers/Brooklyn/Knicks/Phoenix and can inflate your stats). But if you don't show up in the playoffs where teams are figuring out your weaknesses/advantages and can ultimately affect your game more than any regular season team can do, then you're not as great as you think you are. Just compare Lowry's regular season to post season. These teams FIGURE him out. They have guys in the video room coordinating his plays and finding ways to make him less effective. He gets SHUT DOWN. Guys like LeBron don't. They play equally as good in the regular season as they do in the postseason. That's a very telling sign to me.

Chronz
06-27-2016, 01:10 PM
Another thing on Kyrie to keep in mind: prior to this the biggest knock on him was supposedly he was a good player but wouldn't be one "when it mattered" in the playoffs and that his style of play wasn't conducive to "winning basketball."

Well those things have been dispelled in a major way.

My knock on him has always been only one thing, can he stay healthy.,

Other than that I'd take him as my pg any day.

Conducive to winning? What does that even mean? So all it took was him being on the squad that could make the Finals without him, if its "conducive" to winning why does he struggle to do so without Bron on the court? Can't deny its a luxury that most elite pgs dont have. Imagine if Lowry got the open shots that Bron provides, looking at the shooting splits and sets, it seems lowry is better as an outlet with defenses scrambled.

Chronz
06-27-2016, 01:14 PM
Also the biggest knock on him has always been his deficiencies defensively and how he can take the air out of the ball, hurting his teammates in the process

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 02:34 PM
Conducive to winning? What does that even mean? So all it took was him being on the squad that could make the Finals without him, if its "conducive" to winning why does he struggle to do so without Bron on the court? Can't deny its a luxury that most elite pgs dont have. Imagine if Lowry got the open shots that Bron provides, looking at the shooting splits and sets, it seems lowry is better as an outlet with defenses scrambled.

You saw him taking open shots?

We must've watched two different playoffs because I watched him putting people on skates, including Klay who's a pretty good defender.

One could say Lebron is the one who has the luxury of having another player that can create for himself and get needed buckets when he's cold or his J isn't falling.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 03:12 PM
Do you mind sharing these statistics on how Lowry is more efficient? Because according to basketball reference you're wrong.

Also, in the playoffs Lowry is an equivalent defender.

Am I?

PER
Lowry- 22.2
Irving- 19.9

TS%
Lowry- .578
Irving- .540

WS/48
Lowry- .196
Irving- .143

VORP
Lowry- 6.3
Irving- 1.5

Just for fun I included win shares and value over replace my player statistics. Also, Kyrie is never Lowry's equivalent at defending. Things naturally tighten up, pace is slowed, officials call less fouls, but that doesn't suddenly improve Irving's defense to Lowry's capabilities.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:22 PM
Am I?

PER
Lowry- 22.2
Irving- 19.9

TS%
Lowry- .578
Irving- .540

WS/48
Lowry- .196
Irving- .143

VORP
Lowry- 6.3
Irving- 1.5

Just for fun I included win shares and value over replace my player statistics. Also, Kyrie is never Lowry's equivalent at defending. Things naturally tighten up, pace is slowed, officials call less fouls, but that doesn't suddenly improve Irving's defense to Lowry's capabilities.

So you're only looking at this year's regular season?

:rolleyes:

RLundi
06-27-2016, 03:24 PM
You've shown me that you'd rather have Lowry based on regular season numbers but I've shown you that Kyrie Irving was better in the playoffs. Hence, I'd rather have Irving because he performed in the playoffs and I couldn't base it off regular season due to his injuries. Lowry is not injured. He was not 100% but he's coming into the Olympics. If he were injured, he should sit out. So I honestly don't care how you place Lowry or Irving but please stop trying to make it seem as if you saying Lowry is better, actually makes him better. The world saw how great Irving can be and will be. Lowry chokes in the playoffs. You take that guy. I'll take the guy who I can count on when it matters. Okay?

I hate to say it since most Toronto "fans" in Canada aren't really NBA fans but good luck winning with this guy:

https://gyazo.com/3e75928918d13e60da6170ab50d0cb51

He under-performs EVERY time. Yeah, he wins you regular season games! Awesome! And then when it comes time to win championship rings, he just disappears! Go ahead, take that guy. Seriously.

Here's the thing: my saying Lowry is better is not in itself evidence that he's better. The stats and evidence I gave you is what I used to assert that Lowry is better. You, on the other hand, are saying Kyrie is better but you STILL haven't provided evidence. Why not? Is it because you don't have a leg to stand on besides your own opinions?

I gave you several seasons worth of statistics and all you've produced is conjecture and anecdotes about how great Kyrie is. You realize that's not evidence right? Basically I've given you analytical and even empirical evidence and you've countered with bull**** anecdotal evidence. So why not give me something more than your opinions backed up by absolutely nothing?

Chronz
06-27-2016, 03:28 PM
You saw him taking open shots?
The argument I'm making is that Lowry would take the shots that Bron provides. Believe me, I'm well aware that Kyrie loves himself some iso, sometimes to the teams detriment.



One could say Lebron is the one who has the luxury of having another player that can create for himself and get needed buckets when he's cold or his J isn't falling
Except that we already know Bron is making the finals without him and is the FAR more productive player whereas Kyrie struggles to keep the team above water without Bron.

Feel free to make the argument tho, should be interesting.

Again you avoided the q. If its conductive to victory, what's with his struggles?

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:31 PM
Career RS FG%

Kyrie: .452
Lillard: .426
Lowry: .419 (and his last 3 years are just as bad, nowhere near Kyrie's in case you want to ignore the beginning of his career)

Career RS TS%

Kyrie: .555
Lillard: .559
Lowry: .551

Neither player is a better career 3pt% shooter than Kyrie, but they have much much higher FtR than Kyrie, and get a lot of free throws. That's what boosts their TS% up to his level.

Career Playoff FG%

Kyrie: .464
Lillard: .400
Lowry: .383

Career Playoff TS%

Kyrie: .574
Lillard: .539
Lowry: .502

I'll quote this again.

In terms of efficiency, Kyrie fathers Lowry. And I could post more efficiency stats like:

Career 2pt FG%:

Kyrie: .481
Lowry: .460

Career eFG%

Kyrie: .505
Lowry: .489

Career 3pt %

Kyrie: .378
Lowry: .356

Career PER

Kyrie: 20.9
Lowry: 18.0

Hell, let's do FT% while we're at it. Career FT%

Kyrie: .865
Lowry: .796

Kyle Lowry has ONLY been more efficient this year, but career-wise (and even if you only compare Kyrie's numbers to Lowry's LAST THREE YEARS), Kyrie owns him in every manner of efficiency there is.

But sure, try and argue your point based off only this regular season.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 03:32 PM
So you're only looking at this year's regular season?

:rolleyes:

Lol way to backtrack. Did you misread bkref's statistics? Or did you sort the statistics backwards? You said bkref does not agree with me that Lowry is more efficient and has a better TS%. What did you think I was using to compare them, their entire careers? Go back about three or four pages. I'll write to you what I wrote then: Since 2013, Lowry and Kyrie have been neck-and-neck in efficiency and TS%, but Lowry's defense has always been levels better than Kyrie's. Now that Lowry is shooting better, passing better, and providing more win share percentages than Irving as the unquestioned leader of a title-contending team (something Kyrie never has done), not to mention continuing the stellar defense, I put Lowry above Kyrie.

And feel free to verify the statistics and see if "according to basketball reference [I'm] wrong."

RLundi
06-27-2016, 03:34 PM
I'll quote this again.

In terms of efficiency, Kyrie fathers Lowry. And I could post more efficiency stats like:

Career 2pt FG%:

Kyrie: .481
Lowry: .460

Career eFG%

Kyrie: .505
Lowry: .489

Career 3pt %

Kyrie: .378
Lowry: .356

Career PER

Kyrie: 20.9
Lowry: 18.0

Hell, let's do FT% while we're at it. Career FT%

Kyrie: .865
Lowry: .796

Kyle Lowry has ONLY been more efficient this year, but career-wise (and even if you only compare Kyrie's numbers to Lowry's LAST THREE YEARS), Kyrie owns him in every manner of efficiency there is.

But sure, try and argue your point based off only this regular season.

Lol what kind of bull**** statistics are you trying to argue? FT%? 2pt%? You're still using eFG?

Hawkeye15
06-27-2016, 03:35 PM
I'll quote this again.

In terms of efficiency, Kyrie fathers Lowry. And I could post more efficiency stats like:

Career 2pt FG%:

Kyrie: .481
Lowry: .460

Career eFG%

Kyrie: .505
Lowry: .489

Career 3pt %

Kyrie: .378
Lowry: .356

Career PER

Kyrie: 20.9
Lowry: 18.0

Hell, let's do FT% while we're at it. Career FT%

Kyrie: .865
Lowry: .796

Kyle Lowry has ONLY been more efficient this year, but career-wise (and even if you only compare Kyrie's numbers to Lowry's LAST THREE YEARS), Kyrie owns him in every manner of efficiency there is.

But sure, try and argue your point based off only this regular season.

Lowry is an excellent defender, Irving putrid. When doing career statistics, remember, Lowry got no burn early, and wasn't even a starter until year 5. The last 3 years of Lowry has been better than any year Irving has put up. Obviously 29 versus 24, so that will change. But as of now, Lowry is the better player.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:40 PM
Also, Kyrie is never Lowry's equivalent at defending. Things naturally tighten up, pace is slowed, officials call less fouls, but that doesn't suddenly improve Irving's defense to Lowry's capabilities.

Lol Lowry's Playoff DBPM numbers are actually lower than Kyrie's.

Lowry DBPM in the playoffs: (career 0.0, but he's a 0.1 in the last 3 years)
Irving DBPM in the playoffs: (career 0.3 for only 2 years)

Hell, even if we compare playoff blocks and steals, Kyrie is still better. Lowry is a better defensive rebounder but that's it.

I get you feel Lowry is better and that's fine, but use a better argument, man. Lowry is not as efficient of a player as Irving, and his playoff defense is not better than Irving's.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:41 PM
Lol what kind of bull**** statistics are you trying to argue? FT%? 2pt%? You're still using eFG?

I even used the flawed TS% and he still beats Lowry. WHAT OTHER STAT SHOULD I USE???

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:44 PM
Lowry is an excellent defender, Irving putrid.

Not in the playoffs.


The last 3 years of Lowry has been better than any year Irving has put up.

Not in terms of efficiency.

Lowry is a better rebounder and defender (in the regular season), and yes, a better passer (but not by much). But he is NOT more efficient.

I'm waiting for someone to show me otherwise.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 03:50 PM
2013
PER: Lowry- 20.1; Irving- 20.1
TS%: Lowry- .567; Irving- .533
VORP: Lowry- 5.7; Irving- 3.3
WS/48: Lowry- .197; Irving- .128

2014
PER: Lowry- 19.3; Irving- 21.5
TS%: Lowry- .527; Irving- .583
VORP: Lowry- 3.4; Irving- 3.7
WS/48: Lowry- .141; Irving- .183

2015
PER: Lowry- 22.2; Irving- 19.9
TS%: Lowry- .578; Irving- .540
VORP: Lowry- 6.3; Irving- 1.5
WS/48: Lowry- .196; Irving- .143

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:51 PM
Lol way to backtrack. Did you misread bkref's statistics? Or did you sort the statistics backwards? You said bkref does not agree with me that Lowry is more efficient and has a better TS%.

Who uses one year of efficiency to measure whether or not player x is more efficient than player y??? Like seriously? What kind of preschool logic is this?

Chris Paul TS% this year was lower than Lowry's. Are we now saying that Lowry is a more efficient player?

You've gotta be joking.

But then I remember you were also claiming that you triple-dog double frog GUARANTEEED that Kevin Love was walking away from the Cavs after the 14-15 season, so...

yeah, that explains a lot.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 03:59 PM
2013
PER: Lowry- 20.1; Irving- 20.1
TS%: Lowry- .567; Irving- .533
VORP: Lowry- 5.7; Irving- 3.3
WS/48: Lowry- .197; Irving- .128

2014
PER: Lowry- 19.3; Irving- 21.5
TS%: Lowry- .527; Irving- .583
VORP: Lowry- 3.4; Irving- 3.7
WS/48: Lowry- .141; Irving- .183

2015
PER: Lowry- 22.2; Irving- 19.9
TS%: Lowry- .578; Irving- .540
VORP: Lowry- 6.3; Irving- 1.5
WS/48: Lowry- .196; Irving- .143

Why cherry-pick stats to try to support your argument? Why not include 2012? Also, what does WS/48 and VORP have to do with efficiency?

2012
PER: Lowry 18.8; Irving 21.4
TS%: Lowry .543; Irving .553

RLundi
06-27-2016, 04:01 PM
Who uses one year of efficiency to measure whether or not player x is more efficient than player y??? Like seriously? What kind of preschool logic is this?

Chris Paul TS% this year was lower than Lowry's. Are we now saying that Lowry is a more efficient player?

You've gotta be joking.

But then I remember you were also claiming that you triple-dog double frog GUARANTEEED that Kevin Love was walking away from the Cavs after the 14-15 season, so...

yeah, that explains a lot.

Lol what a deflection. Hand to God, I don't remember saying that about Love, but I may have, sure. But what are you, a woman? Keeping and holding on to memories burning inside of you as you wait to use them at the earliest convenience in spite? LOL come on man, you're better than that. Or maybe you aren't, I don't know.

Back on topic? I clearly showed you three years wrote of statistics about 4 pages back. And then I just did it for you again a few posts back. Even if I used one season, that's enough of a sample size to determine which player had the better season or which one is the better player. Sorry if you disagree. And even if you do, three years is certainly enough time. But you're basing their stats on entire careers? How silly is that? Lowry was a much different player at the beginning of his career: he was totally out of shape and barely played meaningful minutes.

Final salvo: are you joking about Irving's defense being equal to Lowry's in the postseason? Like, are you really arguing that? Very sad.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 04:03 PM
Now that I look at it, the only time Lowry has had a higher PER than Irving was this past 15-16 season (when Irving was out from a knee injury 'til December).

All previous 4 seasons Irving had a higher PER (except the one they were tied).

Edited to switch it to PER (instead of TS%)

RLundi
06-27-2016, 04:04 PM
Why cherry-pick stats to try to support your argument? Why not include 2012? Also, what does WS/48 and VORP have to do with efficiency?

2012
PER: Lowry 18.8; Irving 21.4
TS%: Lowry .543; Irving .553

3 years is cherry-picking? And in 2012, Lowry only started 50 games and averaged less than 30 minutes a game. He was just starting to come into his own. 2013-present is a more accurate and consistent reflection of the player he is today.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 04:10 PM
Now that I look at it, the only time Lowry has had a higher TS% than Irving was this past 15-16 season (when Irving was out from a knee injury 'til December).

All previous 4 seasons Irving had a higher TS% (except the one they were tied).

"Now that you look at it"? Do you legitimately know how to read stats? I even bolder it for you for god's sake. In 2013 and 2015, Lowry had a higher TS%. And way to ignore value and win share percentage, where Lowry has been better as well. This is why I made the claim that over the last three seasons, in my opinion and supported by these stats, Lowry and Kyrie have been nearly neck-and-neck, but this season, Lowry clearly surpassed Kyrie, and all of this is excluding Lowry's defense, which again, is much better than Kyrie's. Lowry is a better player. In 2 or 3 years, or even as soon as next season, that may change as Lowry ages and Irving comes into his prime. But TODAY, THIS SEASON, Lowry has the edge.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 04:14 PM
Lol what a deflection. Hand to God, I don't remember saying that about Love, but I may have, sure. But what are you, a woman? Keeping and holding on to memories burning inside of you as you wait to use them at the earliest convenience in spite? LOL come on man, you're better than that. Or maybe you aren't, I don't know.


Back on topic? I clearly showed you three years wrote of statistics about 4 pages back. And then I just did it for you again a few posts back. Even if I used one season, that's enough of a sample size to determine which player had the better season or which one is the better player. Sorry if you disagree. [/QUOTE]

Yes, back on topic, plz.

You showed me 1 year in which Lowry had a better PER out of 5 years. You showed me 2 years Lowry had a better TS% (and conveniently did not include the previous 5 years, in which Irving had a better TS% in 3)

Dude, you're cherry-picking and it's obvious.


Final salvo: are you joking about Irving's defense being equal to Lowry's in the postseason? Like, are you really arguing that? Very sad.

Check their post-season stats and come back at me.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 04:15 PM
"Now that you look at it"? Do you legitimately know how to read stats? I even bolder it for you for god's sake. In 2013 and 2015, Lowry had a higher TS%. And way to ignore value and win share percentage, where Lowry has been better as well. This is why I made the claim that over the last three seasons, in my opinion and supported by these stats, Lowry and Kyrie have been nearly neck-and-neck, but this season, Lowry clearly surpassed Kyrie, and all of this is excluding Lowry's defense, which again, is much better than Kyrie's. Lowry is a better player. In 2 or 3 years, or even as soon as next season, that may change as Lowry ages and Irving comes into his prime. But TODAY, THIS SEASON, Lowry has the edge.

I edited to change it to PER, because that's what I was talking about.

Still, Irving had a higher TS% in 3 of the last 5 years.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2016, 04:16 PM
Not in the playoffs.



Not in terms of efficiency.

Lowry is a better rebounder and defender (in the regular season), and yes, a better passer (but not by much). But he is NOT more efficient.

I'm waiting for someone to show me otherwise.

I tend to base my judgements on players over the course of a year, or more, not 3 weeks.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 04:29 PM
Yes, back on topic, plz.

You showed me 1 year in which Lowry had a better PER out of 5 years. You showed me 2 years Lowry had a better TS% (and conveniently did not include the previous 5 years, in which Irving had a better TS% in 3)

Dude, you're cherry-picking and it's obvious.



It's called using context, you should try it sometimes.

Did you just conveniently ignore this?


And in 2012, Lowry only started 50 games and averaged less than 30 minutes a game. He was just starting to come into his own. 2013-present is a more accurate and consistent reflection of the player he is today.

I'm not going to keep explaining this to you because you are simply refusing to see. If you want to compare their careers, Irving will have better numbers. But this is not an argument of their places on the all-time list. It's about TODAY. If you want to compare them today accurately, the sample size has to be appropriate.

Last season and for a few seasons prior, Kyrie was better player than Kobe Bryant. If I'm asking, who is the better player today or recently, why would I use Kobe's first 15 seasons in the league? I'm going to look at what he's done recently, otherwise I'm comparing apples to oranges. Again, it sucks that I have to keep explaining this to you. You realize the truth, you just don't want to admit it: Everything that Kyrie does, lowry does better, save for scoring. Lowry is more efficient, more valuable, and contributes to wins better, and therefore is the better player, this past year for sure, and perhaps since he became a full-time starter. The stats confirm this, even if your understandable love for your team conflicts with it. End of story.

Tony_Starks
06-27-2016, 04:46 PM
I tend to base my judgements on players over the course of a year, or more, not 3 weeks.

By that rationale Steph would still be the best player in the NBA then...

Hawkeye15
06-27-2016, 04:49 PM
By that rationale Steph would still be the best player in the NBA then...

he has a great argument as the best player in the NBA. 2 time back to back MVP, was the best player in the game this year. He just wasn't for a few weeks, and unfortunately, those were the most important 3 weeks of his career.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 05:11 PM
It's called using context, you should try it sometimes.

Did you just conveniently ignore this?



I'm not going to keep explaining this to you because you are simply refusing to see. If you want to compare their careers, Irving will have better numbers. But this is not an argument of their places on the all-time list. It's about TODAY. If you want to compare them today accurately, the sample size has to be appropriate.

Last season and for a few seasons prior, Kyrie was better player than Kobe Bryant. If I'm asking, who is the better player today or recently, why would I use Kobe's first 15 seasons in the league? I'm going to look at what he's done recently, otherwise I'm comparing apples to oranges. Again, it sucks that I have to keep explaining this to you. You realize the truth, you just don't want to admit it: Everything that Kyrie does, lowry does better, save for scoring. Lowry is more efficient, more valuable, and contributes to wins better, and therefore is the better player, this past year for sure, and perhaps since he became a full-time starter. The stats confirm this, even if your understandable love for your team conflicts with it. End of story.

Check out the new thread.

Kyrie is obviously better than Kobe right now, but Kobe had the better career. But I don't use JUST ONE YEAR as reference to Kyrie being better than Kobe. He has been better for more than just one year.

Lowry has had only 2 years that were more efficient than Kyrie's (2013/2015, and just barely). Kyrie was more efficient in 2012 and 2014, AND SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFICIENT in the 2015 playoffs and 2016 playoffs.

Also, a significant portion of 2015 had Kyrie recovering from his injury.

One year is simply not enough. Remember that guy named Lance Stephenson? I think 3-4 years is sufficient, but I also like to include the playoffs and not just ignore them like you have.

I put up a poll and we'll see what the majority of PSD thinks.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 05:16 PM
It's called using context, you should try it sometimes.

Did you just conveniently ignore this?
.

So using context means conveniently cherry-picking how many years you wish to include in your analysis? Why use 3 and not 4?

You intentionally draw the line to a specific point that makes it LOOK like Lowry has been more efficient (3 years in the regular season) and then completely ignore the playoffs. LOL you're a joke, dude.

RLundi
06-27-2016, 09:12 PM
Check out the new thread.

Kyrie is obviously better than Kobe right now, but Kobe had the better career. But I don't use JUST ONE YEAR as reference to Kyrie being better than Kobe. He has been better for more than just one year.

Here you are contradicting yourself. You're saying you use more than one year to prove Kyrie is better than Kobe, which is exactly what I used to assert Lowry is better than Kyrie. How many years do you need to prove it? 2? 3? 5? Who gets to decide, you?

For the umpteenth time, we are not arguing career, but this season, Lowry overtook Kyrie as the better player.


Lowry has had only 2 years that were more efficient than Kyrie's (2013/2015, and just barely). Kyrie was more efficient in 2012 and 2014, AND SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFICIENT in the 2015 playoffs and 2016 playoffs.

And your point is? The numbers are extremely close when it comes to PER. For the last 3 years, since Lowry became a full-time starter, Kyrie and Lowry were neck-and-neck. Lowry's 2015 season was much better than Kyrie's, hence he is a hair better. Idc what you say, the stats disagree with your worthless opinion.


Also, a significant portion of 2015 had Kyrie recovering from his injury.

Stop making excuses, homer.


One year is simply not enough. Remember that guy named Lance Stephenson? I think 3-4 years is sufficient, but I also like to include the playoffs and not just ignore them like you have.

I'm not ignoring then, they're just a small sample size that are given too much credence and importance. And naturally, you're an opportunist that uses it to exclaim how great X player is! Consequently, you must love Robert Horry, one of the best players in NBA history!


I put up a poll and we'll see what the majority of PSD thinks.

No one cares about your poll or you, it has like 3 responses lol.


So using context means conveniently cherry-picking how many years you wish to include in your analysis? Why use 3 and not 4?

I already explained that.


You intentionally draw the line to a specific point that makes it LOOK like Lowry has been more efficient (3 years in the regular season) and then completely ignore the playoffs. LOL you're a joke, dude.

Thanks for your insight, homer.

Vee-Rex
06-27-2016, 11:31 PM
Here you are contradicting yourself. You're saying you use more than one year to prove Kyrie is better than Kobe, which is exactly what I used to assert Lowry is better than Kyrie. How many years do you need to prove it? 2? 3? 5? Who gets to decide, you?

You included VORP and WS/48 in your argument in terms of efficiency and you cut it off at 3 years WHILE NOT INCLUDING PLAYOFFS. If you want to only use the past 3 years, then please include playoffs. Ahh, of course you won't.

In my thread I used TS%, PER, FG%, 2pt%, 3pt%, TOV%, FT%, and eFG% to prove that Kyrie is the more efficient player.



For the umpteenth time, we are not arguing career, but this season, Lowry overtook Kyrie as the better player.


You're electing to use just one REGULAR season. If we judged all players by just the previous regular season then a number of crazy declarations could be made. I'm honestly not sure why I'm arguing with you on your stupid logic with just the regular season at this point.



And your point is? The numbers are extremely close when it comes to PER. For the last 3 years, since Lowry became a full-time starter, Kyrie and Lowry were neck-and-neck. Lowry's 2015 season was much better than Kyrie's, hence he is a hair better. Idc what you say, the stats disagree with your worthless opinion.


Lowry became a full-time starter in 2012. Yet you refrain from including the 2012 season into your analysis. Lol, how convenient.



Stop making excuses, homer.


And crying about how Lowry wasn't a 'full-time starter' (and being wrong) before 2013 isn't an excuse? Lowry has had two better regular seasons (2013/15) that are SUPER close, while Kyrie has had 3 better regular seasons (2011, 12, 14) and 2 MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH better playoffs (2015/16) with 2016 being the most recent, and with Kyrie vastly outperforming Lowry in H2H. He's more efficient, nub. Give it up.


I'm not ignoring then, they're just a small sample size that are given too much credence and importance. And naturally, you're an opportunist that uses it to exclaim how great X player is! Consequently, you must love Robert Horry, one of the best players in NBA history!


Lol but you ARE ignoring the playoffs! Playoffs are given too much credence and importance? ARE YOU JOKING? :laugh: The most important part of the NBA schedule is given too much importance? You can't be serious? And Robert Horry is indeed one of the best CLUTCH players in NBA history, because he has had a great number of clutch performances IN THE PLAYOFFS. I see what kind of logic you're TRYING to use but you're failing. Badly.

It's like each and every new post you make, you reveal more of the failure that's inside your head.

RLundi
06-28-2016, 12:00 AM
EDIT: Irrelevancy.

Vee-Rex
06-28-2016, 12:38 AM
I got a reply from you so obviously you care a big deal lol.

Apparently no one thinks otherwise. Keep saying Lowry is more efficient just like you swore up and down that Love was bolting (that's the term you kept using).

RLundi
06-28-2016, 06:55 AM
EDIT: Juvenility.

Vee-Rex
06-28-2016, 08:21 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I must have really struck a chord for you to include something I allegedly said in your sig 2 years later. Did you go and dig through that thread or are you just paraphrasing? Either way you are absolutely pathetic and an embarrassment. Lol what a woman. Goodbye. You've clearly been demolished if you feel the need to stoop to these levels. Very sad. Enjoy this thread and the embarrassing one you created on your own. Cheers mate!

EDIT: I refuse to go back and forth with a woman.

Lol at the misogynistic, pig-headed comments because you can't put up a half decent argument. Is calling someone a woman the best you can do? You think it's a GRAND insult of the most MAGNITUDE, huh? People like you are what's wrong with society. You can't dry up those endless rivers of tears when you're wrong, and unfortunately for you, you're wrong quite a bit.

:laugh:

RLundi
06-28-2016, 10:33 AM
EDIT: Immaturity.

Vee-Rex
06-28-2016, 10:56 AM
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: LOL!! There it is, ladies and gentlemen! There it is! He's done it!! He's officially become butt hurt!! The nerve has been hit!! His feelings have been unquestionably hurt!! Take a peek, folks, this is a prime example of a lady that simply cannot handle her emotions on the internet!! ROFL!

EDIT: Okay I'm done for real this time, Miss. Bye!


You: i'm so done i'm not responding to you you're not worth it!!!!!111 (insert misogynistic, preschool insult)

Later...

You: Okay im gonna respond again but you're the one that's butt hurt!!

You: i'm done not responding again!

LMAO, you are really rattled right now. :clap::clap:

Vee-Rex
06-28-2016, 12:25 PM
EDIT: Immaturity.

EDIT: Juvenility.

EDIT: Irrelevancy.

Hey if you're mad for real for real then my bad, dude. It's not that serious.

prodigy
06-29-2016, 03:56 AM
Very hard to rank him among every player in the NBA.

For point guards, I'd still say:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
Kyrie
Lillard

I had it that way before the Finals, and it's still that way. The Finals didn't change anything, but they did highlight that he is in fact a big-time scorer that plays to the level of his competition. But he is ONLY 24 years old. He's not even close to his prime yet. He's got a great future ahead of him.

This.

Curry was exposed in the playoffs. Stay physical with him and he cracks. If he don't get stronger in the off-season I see injuries coming his way. not dirty plays or anything, But just the physical defense he will see after being exposed.

prodigy
06-29-2016, 03:58 AM
2 soon?

It's hard to rank him among guards and even harder among players lol...

I think for guards:

1. Curry (even after sucking this playoffs, if we are talking about RS, he still the best)
2. Westy
3. CP3
4. Lowry
5. Kyrie (he was better defensively on the Finals)
6. Lillard (he still have to get better defensively)

don't know if I'm forgetting any pg...

So... Maybe top 30 player and top 5 guard.

How the fu** is Lowry ahead of Kyrie and Lillard? LMAO! and don't tell me defense. He's not near them

Tony_Starks
06-29-2016, 12:33 PM
Very hard to rank him among every player in the NBA.

For point guards, I'd still say:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
Kyrie
Lillard

I had it that way before the Finals, and it's still that way. The Finals didn't change anything, but they did highlight that he is in fact a big-time scorer that plays to the level of his competition. But he is ONLY 24 years old. He's not even close to his prime yet. He's got a great future ahead of him.

I'm with this.

What's scary is there's still a lot of improvement to make, but as is he's in that top tier of pg's.

FlashBolt
06-29-2016, 01:57 PM
Here's the thing: my saying Lowry is better is not in itself evidence that he's better. The stats and evidence I gave you is what I used to assert that Lowry is better. You, on the other hand, are saying Kyrie is better but you STILL haven't provided evidence. Why not? Is it because you don't have a leg to stand on besides your own opinions?

I gave you several seasons worth of statistics and all you've produced is conjecture and anecdotes about how great Kyrie is. You realize that's not evidence right? Basically I've given you analytical and even empirical evidence and you've countered with bull**** anecdotal evidence. So why not give me something more than your opinions backed up by absolutely nothing?

What have you provided? A stat that shows he's played better in the regular season? To which I already said is by default due to their situations? Kyrie came back from an injury. Kyrie is not the Cavs primary ballhandler. Their roles are much more different. Even then, Lowry's numbers are not very impressive. He's playing 38 minutes per game. PER36, Kyrie's numbers are actually slightly better. Then we look into the playoffs. It's not my opinion. I gave you facts.. Lowry stunk in the playoffs and Kyrie didn't. And like I said before, I can care less who you have above. It's my own personal belief that Kyrie is better because he performed in the playoffs and the regular season numbers also prove that in that span, it's negligible who had a better regular season strictly from a statistical standpoint. You keep saying you're providing evidence but it actually points to them being equal players... then I use the playoffs stats and you say I'm using an opinion? Have you seen how bad Lowry was in the playoffs? He's been bad his entire career. Do you realize that the playoffs is when teams actually focus on stopping a player? Regular season, they can give a rat's *** how it goes half the time. playoffs is a much more heavily concentrated product. Lowry doesn't perform for some reason and looks like he's not a top 20 PG.. let alone top 5.