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spreadeagle
06-13-2016, 09:40 PM
The Minnesota Timberwolves are prepared to part with the No. 5 overall pick in this month's draft, as the centerpiece of a trade package, if they can use it to construct a deal for Chicago Bulls star swingman Jimmy Butler, according to league sources.

Sources told ESPN.com that the Wolves, in these early days of the Tom Thibodeau era, have made it known to the Bulls that they are strongly interested in dealing for Butler should Chicago elect to make him available.


The Bulls are not believed to be actively looking to move their All-Star swingman ‎but have been listening to pitches for Butler, sources said. Butler initially rose to prominence as a two-way force playing for Thibodeau, the Wolves' new coach and president.

Sources say that the Bulls naturally would demand a significant amount in return to part with Butler, which likely translates to at least one front-line player in addition to a top lottery pick this month.

The Boston Celtics, who hold the No. 3 overall pick, are also known to have trade interest in Butler, while sources say that the Bulls are highly intrigued by Providence guard Kris Dunn, who is projected to be selected in the 3-to-5 range in the June 23 draft.

The No. 5 pick alone clearly wouldn't be sufficient to pry Butler from the Bulls, but Minnesota's own cache of trade assets -- given the various up-and-coming players on its roster -- would theoretically enable the Wolves to either deal with Chicago directly or assemble a multiteam trade scenario.
. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16185672/minnesota-timberwolves-interested-trading-jimmy-butler-chicago-bulls

kdspurman
06-13-2016, 10:20 PM
Interesting... I wonder if Chicago is interested in this

numba1CHANGsta
06-13-2016, 10:30 PM
5th+Rubio+Lavine+Dieng? ehh

If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.

hugepatsfan
06-13-2016, 10:30 PM
For BOS I would do...

#3 (CHI lands Dunn)

Next year's BRK pick (figures to be pretty high and it's a supposedly deep draft)

One of Bradley/Crowder/Smart

and Terry Rozier (should be a good backup PG - I like him)



I think that beats MIN unless they go #5/Dieng/Lavine

In that case, I would try to hop in as a 3-way (giggity)... either give up #3 for Dieng. I think he's a great fit for us - better than the #3 pick candidates - and we could re-sign him.

Other option is to give up Bradley/#3 for Lavine (LOVE him). I still think #3/#5/Dieng would be the best offer CHI gets so they'd accept it. For MIN, you give up the same package but get Butler and Bradley instead of just Butler so they'd of course go for it if they're willing to give it up for just Butler.

jerellh528
06-13-2016, 10:50 PM
5th+Rubio+Lavine+Dieng? ehh

If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.

This package is a steal for minny.

specialiststeve
06-13-2016, 11:02 PM
5th+Rubio+Lavine+Dieng? ehh

If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.

Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

beasted86
06-13-2016, 11:15 PM
Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

Butler is a top 4 SG and you said LaVine has a higher ceiling. So you're guaranteeing he's a top 3 SG soon.

I'd love to know the timeline on that prediction so I can mark my calendar for fantasy season.

beasted86
06-13-2016, 11:24 PM
I think 5, Shabazz, Pek, and another protected pick (maybe top 12) would be a good package for Butler.

bucketss
06-13-2016, 11:29 PM
why does chi want to trade butler? dude seems like a humble young star

ChI_ShIzzLe
06-13-2016, 11:51 PM
Well considering Butler is clearly a better all-around player than Love after watching these Finals, we'll be glad to take Wiggins + #5 for Butler + #14.

42-15-7
06-13-2016, 11:54 PM
Chicago will ask for (and get) the entire universe for Butler if they're willing to deal.

Butler on Minny would definitely be interesting, particularly with KAT drawing so much attention.

(I want to see Butler end up somewhere where he can really excel. Not sure that's Chicago.)

Dade County
06-13-2016, 11:59 PM
Minny should deep that 5th pick.

Butler does he's thing out East, but will he shine day in and day out in the West? If he hd a better 3 point shot.


pg (I see Rubio getting traded)... Jeff Teague maybe?
Wiggins
Butler
stretch 4
Towns

5ass
06-14-2016, 12:04 AM
They should trade #5 and Lavine without hesitation. Lavine is likely a decent 3rd option no defense guy, maybe best suited off the bench IMO. The #5 pick is in a weak draft. Butler is one of the best two way players in the league. This is a no brainer for the Wolves. Its not even a question that its the right move. Yes, Wiggins and Butler are similar players, but Butler is far better than Wiggins and should help his development. I don't think they'll get in each others way.

numba1CHANGsta
06-14-2016, 12:09 AM
Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

LMFAO wow bro your Basketball IQ must be in the negatives :laugh:

CHANGO
06-14-2016, 12:32 AM
If they get Butler that would be a great move, clearly Thibs love Butler and apparently Butler loves Thibs, so there's a connection. Butler going to a young, energetic Wolves team who should get better defensively should be scary.

I would love that move for Butler.

RLundi
06-14-2016, 12:53 AM
Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

Are you a Wolves fan? This would be a bad trade for Chicago. The number 5 pick alone is not worth anything near a player of Butler's caliber. That's just a starting point. Rubio and Dieng are literally throw-ins when talking about trading for one of the best guards in the NBA. LaVine looks like he'll be a good player. But I imagine most would be shocked if his peak rivaled Butler's.

mrblisterdundee
06-14-2016, 01:25 AM
I think 5, Shabazz, Pek, and another protected pick (maybe top 12) would be a good package for Butler.

I doubt the Bulls want any part of Nikola Pekovic. If Chicago's giving up Jimmy Butler, they deserve to get Andrew Wiggins back. Maybe Pekovic helps the contracts work, but he's more of a liability than an asset.

IKnowHoops
06-14-2016, 01:29 AM
Are you a Wolves fan? This would be a bad trade for Chicago. The number 5 pick alone is not worth anything near a player of Butler's caliber. That's just a starting point. Rubio and Dieng are literally throw-ins when talking about trading for one of the best guards in the NBA. LaVine looks like he'll be a good player. But I imagine most would be shocked if his peak rivaled Butler's.

I thin your off base on so many levels. The wolves are not in a win now position, but they are in a 100% perfect situation to win it all in 3 years. In three years they will be in a win now situation, possibly two years if everything goes right.

Trading away Lavine + 5th pick is to much, adding in Rubio and Dieng would be an idiot move of the highest order. Let's think...Kevin Love anybody...And Cleveland gave up a lot less to get Love than what MN would be giving up.

The natural thing for humans to do is be greedy and try to win now. The future of this team lies with KAT, Wiggins, Lavine, Bazz. They are all 20. Jimmy is 26. By the time our young guys are really ready to win, Jimmy will be on the decline. Jimmy will be on the decline in 2 years...so I don't like the investment. On the other hand, there really aren't any Dwade, Lebron, Durant, type rookie talents, but there is a Webber/Penny and about 10 Jamal Mashburns. A young Jamal Washburn who doesn't get hurt is an awesome addition to a young team that can grow together.

At the end of the day, here is the point. Both Lavine, and the 5th pick can be better than Jimmy Butler. It won't be easy, but its reasonably possible. Jimmy is not unbelievable. The fact that they are young and will be able to share an eight year prime of there career with 3 other potential superstars there age is what I want to see. If Jimmy was 20 and was putting up these numbers than yeah, sure go for it. But not at 26, and not for 4 players.

As of now, I would not trade anyone, I would just draft. And then I would pick up Iggadala and Livingston in free agency.

numba1CHANGsta
06-14-2016, 01:52 AM
Yeah lets keep trading away all the superstars out East to the West and make LeBron's path to the Finals even more easier next season.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2016, 02:26 AM
Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

:laugh:

what?

It starts with the 5th pick and wiggins or the bulls walk away.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2016, 02:29 AM
Yeah lets keep trading away all the superstars out East to the West and make LeBron's path to the Finals even more easier next season.

He legit had to bully you in highschool or something.... He had to do something that has scarred you this badly

jerellh528
06-14-2016, 02:39 AM
He legit had to bully you in highschool or something.... He had to do something that has scarred you this badly

Honestly for as much as he hates him, you love him like 10x more lol.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2016, 02:51 AM
Honestly for as much as he hates him, you love him like 10x more lol.

Not even close... He talks about him in every single thread and shows up just to hate... I only talk about him in lebron related threads lol. I can atleast point out flaws with lebron... If he ever admitted anything good or positive about James his head would actually explode lol

numba1CHANGsta
06-14-2016, 03:33 AM
Not even close... He talks about him in every single thread and shows up just to hate... I only talk about him in lebron related threads lol. I can atleast point out flaws with lebron... If he ever admitted anything good or positive about James his head would actually explode lol

And the Bull **** Statement of the Year award goes to...

KnicksorBust
06-14-2016, 08:05 AM
Wiggins name should not even be brought up in this thread. He is less likely to be traded by the Wolves than Butler is by the Bulls.

The #5 pick + LaVine + Dieng is probably the most the Bulls can expect. People are also forgetting that there was friction in that Bulls locker room this year and Butler was at the center of it.

Timmmahhh
06-14-2016, 08:09 AM
Anyone that thinks Minny is trading Wiggins or Townes to acquire Butler is crazy.

I think Boston will have the better trade pieces to land Butler anyways.

*Edit*

Oops meant Townes.

FraziersKnicks
06-14-2016, 08:43 AM
Absolutely no chance the T'Wolves offer the #5 AND Wiggins. Wiggins and Towns are untouchable on that team. I think the only trade I would do if it involved both Wiggins and #5 would be for Anthony Davis.

#5, LaVine and one of Rubio/Dieng/Shabazz would be a fair offer. If that's not enough, keep that pick and either draft Kris Dunn or Jamal Murray, trade Rubio for some nice depth pieces and sign Ryan Anderson.

PG: Kris Dunn/Jamal Murray
SG: Zach LaVine
SF: Andrew Wiggins
PF: Ryan Anderson
C: Karl-Anthony Towns

Or they could draft Bender if he falls and go after Mike Conley.

PG: Mike Conley
SG: Zach LaVine
SF: Andrew Wiggins
PF: Dragan Bender
C: Karl-Anthony Towns

The first team probably has more potential to be great but that second team is a borderline playoff team out West with more upside than any team in the league.

TheDish87
06-14-2016, 09:13 AM
in what universe is Lavine and the 5th pick too much for Butler? Thats honestly not enough. Boston and Philly and im sure some others teams can offer better return.

rhymeratic
06-14-2016, 09:29 AM
I actually like this idea for both teams. To me, anything that moves Wiggins to SF is a win. A trio of Butler, Wiggins and KAT is more than enough of a core to build around.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 09:35 AM
for the life of me, I don't understand why the Wolves are after Butler, when they have a young Wiggins who will literally be him, or better, within 2 years.

I just don't get it.

JOSKOMANG4
06-14-2016, 09:40 AM
Pekovic, Rubio, Bjelica, Muhammed, and 5th overall to Bulls for Jimmy Butler & Derrick Rose.

Wolves Lineup: Dieng/Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Rose.

Bulls Lineup: Pek/Portis/Mcdermott/BUDDY Hield(5th overall)/Rubio

JOSKOMANG4
06-14-2016, 09:46 AM
I also believe the celtics will have the better deal, but not the deal that ppl expect! I do believe that the celtics will acquire Okafur, along with 26th overall pick from Philly, in exchanged for 3rd overall, 31st & 35th overall pick.

3 way deal: Boston/CHI/SAC

- Kings acquire 16th overall & 23rd overall pick from Celtics.
- Kings trade 8th overall

- Celtics acquire SF J.Butler
- Celtics trade 16th overall, 23rd overall, 2018 Nets unprotected 1st, C Olynyk, & G A.Bradley.

- Bulls acquire 8th overall pick, 2018 Nets unprotected 1st, C Olynyk, & G A.Bradley.
- Bulls trade SF Butler.

Celtics Lineup: Okafur/Johnson/Crowder/Butler/Thomas.
Bulls Lineup: Olynyk/Portis/McDermott/Bradley/Rose.

Timmmahhh
06-14-2016, 09:52 AM
for the life of me, I don't understand why the Wolves are after Butler, when they have a young Wiggins who will literally be him, or better, within 2 years.

I just don't get it.

Thibs :love: Butler

Butler :love: Thibs

hugepatsfan
06-14-2016, 09:53 AM
for the life of me, I don't understand why the Wolves are after Butler, when they have a young Wiggins who will literally be him, or better, within 2 years.

I just don't get it.

Well wouldn't the plan be to have both? I think Butler/Wiggins/Towns has shades of the MIA Big 3. A big that can stretch the floor and two guys who might not be great shooters but are very offensively gifted. And all 3 are good on defense.

You guys would then want to put shooters around them of course, so I think Rubio would need to go for a different type of PG.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 10:03 AM
Well wouldn't the plan be to have both? I think Butler/Wiggins/Towns has shades of the MIA Big 3. A big that can stretch the floor and two guys who might not be great shooters but are very offensively gifted. And all 3 are good on defense.

You guys would then want to put shooters around them of course, so I think Rubio would need to go for a different type of PG.

I am not a huge fan of overlapping skillsets with main players I guess. Butler can't shoot a lick anyways, so now we also need to adjust more of the starting lineup (like you said, Rubio may need to go now, and we can't get his value in a trade currently).

I personally don't like the Butler talk, and can't be convinced of it. If it happens, whatever, I will deal with it. I just don't like messing with the young core this early.

Vinylman
06-14-2016, 12:08 PM
They should trade #5 and Lavine without hesitation. Lavine is likely a decent 3rd option no defense guy, maybe best suited off the bench IMO. The #5 pick is in a weak draft. Butler is one of the best two way players in the league. This is a no brainer for the Wolves. Its not even a question that its the right move. Yes, Wiggins and Butler are similar players, but Butler is far better than Wiggins and should help his development. I don't think they'll get in each others way.

This.... teams like the wolves need to start turning their young players into established players... they can't get enamored with the youth... veteran leadership and knowing Thibs system can accelerate the teams development.

LA4life24/8
06-14-2016, 12:13 PM
If I was the Bulls I'd ask for the 5th+Lavine. Period. No way Minnesota does 5th+Wiggins. But if I was the Bulls no way do I do it for less than 5th+lavine. I think it's a fair trade. Minny needs vet leadership ON the court and the Bulls could use some good youth infuse mentioned. They could get Lavine and dunn and to replace Butler and rose .

Pierzynski4Prez
06-14-2016, 12:18 PM
Bulls MUST ask for Wiggins in the deal, even if #5 isn't included, or they should walk away.

I just can't see the Bulls FO coming to a conclusion with Thibs. The resentment between both groups is just way too much, and neither is going to budge in my opinion.

My trade would be Jimmy, Dunleavy, and #14 for Wiggins, Pek, and #5. Thibs like Dunleavy, and MN will need him to help with spacing. Wiggins and #5 is too much for just Jimmy and MDJ, but shedding Pek's contract I think makes it enticing enough to pull the trigger. Rubio-Wiggins-Butler in the same lineup would scare me with spacing which is why I think MN MIGHT consider trading Wiggins (although not really so sure).

effen5
06-14-2016, 12:27 PM
The problem with the Bulls in the past is that they've always asked way too much...and most of the time when they should have accepted a deal they've balked and this team has become absolute trash.

I'd take the 5 dieng and Lavine for Jimmy and try to get rid of Taj, MDJ, and Rose asap.

beasted86
06-14-2016, 12:33 PM
I am not a huge fan of overlapping skillsets with main players I guess. Butler can't shoot a lick anyways, so now we also need to adjust more of the starting lineup (like you said, Rubio may need to go now, and we can't get his value in a trade currently).

I personally don't like the Butler talk, and can't be convinced of it. If it happens, whatever, I will deal with it. I just don't like messing with the young core this early.

Dude. The Wolves suck. I hope that's not some sort of mind-blowing observation by me telling you that. I'd hope you fully know that by yourself.

So being that they suck, do you think they will just organically grow into a contender? Because if that's your hope its a stupid plan to wait until Wiggins, Towns, and possibly LaVine are all making $20M+ two more years from now, and only then start thinking about how to push the team to a contender after its too late and they are cap strapped and those players may be overpaid.

They need to make a move NOW. Not later. Whether you agree or disagree on Butler being the guy they should go after is subjective. But for sure, they need to make a move for that piece right now. It being too early to try and improve the team is ludicrous.

The way you figure out whether a guy is "really good" or just pretending with empty stats is seeing how he fits into the system of a winning team. Remember when people (admittedly a few clueless) thought Waiters was going to be the next Wade? Suddenly within the scheme of a winning team his true value was made clear as day. It would be really foolish for management to sit on their hands and just wait out the development of their core.

Lately, I'm not sure why there are so many fans of horrible losing teams imploring the management of those teams to do nothing. Really weird phenomenon.

CHANGO
06-14-2016, 01:39 PM
for the life of me, I don't understand why the Wolves are after Butler, when they have a young Wiggins who will literally be him, or better, within 2 years.

I just don't get it.

I haven't seen anything impressive from Wiggins at all...

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 01:41 PM
Dude. The Wolves suck. I hope that's not some sort of mind-blowing observation by me telling you that. I'd hope you fully know that by yourself.

So being that they suck, do you think they will just organically grow into a contender? Because if that's your hope its a stupid plan to wait until Wiggins, Towns, and possibly LaVine are all making $20M+ two more years from now, and only then start thinking about how to push the team to a contender after its too late and they are cap strapped and those players may be overpaid.

They need to make a move NOW. Not later. Whether you agree or disagree on Butler being the guy they should go after is subjective. But for sure, they need to make a move for that piece right now. It being too early to try and improve the team is ludicrous.

The way you figure out whether a guy is "really good" or just pretending with empty stats is seeing how he fits into the system of a winning team. Remember when people (admittedly a few clueless) thought Waiters was going to be the next Wade? Suddenly within the scheme of a winning team his true value was made clear as day. It would be really foolish for management to sit on their hands and just wait out the development of their core.

Lately, I'm not sure why there are so many fans of horrible losing teams imploring the management of those teams to do nothing. Really weird phenomenon.

They have sucked, for 12 years (well kinda forever outside 03-04'). However, their young core is for real. They played pretty well to close the year, Towns looks to be a future fixture on the all NBA teams, and they have plenty of money to sign vet contributors this summer, and next.

I would prefer to let the roster cook another season, than trade for a conflicting skillset player in Butler, who basically just does what Wiggins does a bit better across the board, which you would expect for a prime player versus a 21 year old.

You and I clearly don't see eye to eye on Rubio, and I know you have even commented that you haven't watched the Wolves much recently. I am as negative of a fan as it gets regarding my team. But Towns is for real, Wiggins looks to be a very good 2 way player within a couple years, and Lavine, we shall see.

I have no doubt Dieng goes, we can't afford to keep him. Bazz maybe as well. I really don't know what Thibs is going to do. If he makes a move for Butler, fine. But Towns/Wiggins had better not be included in any deals.

Stunner
06-14-2016, 01:44 PM
I'll be happy with Lavine / Dieng and 5 for Butler and the Kings pick but our front office isn't smart

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 01:46 PM
I haven't seen anything impressive from Wiggins at all...

he has taken some games over down the stretch, shows to be a good scorer (who will be elite) at some point, and he is a good 1-1 defender. Thibs will make him a much better team defender. Wiggins needs to improve his ball handling, and 3 point shot. He showed flashes of playmaking the 2nd half of last year.

I really have no interest in trading him.

Btw, go check Butler's numbers out in year 2. You wouldn't have thought much of him either...and Butler was already 23 by then. Not 20.

I am not saying Wiggins is as good as Butler. I am saying, he will probably be a version of him, so why trade for a more expensive version of a player you will already have in a couple of years when the Wolves are actually playing games into May?

Again, if it happens, I will support it. Just not my cup of tea personally. And I will fully admit I was wrong if we get Butler, and he/Towns/Wiggins turn into a 3 headed monster.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 01:49 PM
part of my desire to keep our young core is, to give Thib's a shot at them.

mngopher35
06-14-2016, 02:27 PM
I'm with Hawk on keeping the core over going for Butler here. #5, Shabazz, Dieng would be my best offer and it likely isn't enough. Rubio/Lavine/Wiggins/Dieng/Towns and #5 (assuming guard) is one PF and a little time away, the skills fit together. I say play into the year at least to see what we have, I suspect with an addition or two we are at playoff caliber already. Butler just isn't worth messing with that considering the skill set. The rumor is we offered #5? Obviously would do that but Lavine/Dieng is too much more for me given where we are and the talent we have. When that group started down the stretch we were like .400 or so and that is without growth going into next year, 5th pick, a vet fa (like noah/deng) and of course now Thibs over Mitchell.

CHANGO
06-14-2016, 02:51 PM
he has taken some games over down the stretch, shows to be a good scorer (who will be elite) at some point, and he is a good 1-1 defender. Thibs will make him a much better team defender. Wiggins needs to improve his ball handling, and 3 point shot. He showed flashes of playmaking the 2nd half of last year.

I really have no interest in trading him.

Btw, go check Butler's numbers out in year 2. You wouldn't have thought much of him either...and Butler was already 23 by then. Not 20.

I am not saying Wiggins is as good as Butler. I am saying, he will probably be a version of him, so why trade for a more expensive version of a player you will already have in a couple of years when the Wolves are actually playing games into May?

Again, if it happens, I will support it. Just not my cup of tea personally. And I will fully admit I was wrong if we get Butler, and he/Towns/Wiggins turn into a 3 headed monster.

I guess is a thing of hoping. Hoping Wiggins can become what everyone expects him to become. But IDK, trading him for Butler isn't definitely a good move. But not wanting Butler because you already have Wiggins could backfire.

I love the young core too, I'm not a Wolves fan but I'm high on them. As soon as I saw Thibs becoming the HC I said "this can be great", having young, athletic and energetic guys learning team defense from one of the bests can be a success.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-14-2016, 02:56 PM
There's a bit of risk involved here for the Wolves organization too. I get people saying they'd rather stand pat, but how long are MN fans willing to risk continue missing the playoffs for?

I know this is probably the best young core they've ever had, but it seems for the last decade they've been in this position, only to never take that next step. Thibs wants Butler probably pretty bad, and the last thing he probably wants is a roster made up mainly of guys on rookie contracts. If he plays the wait game, Butler is likely gone to someone else, missing his chance for a player that perfectly fits his style. Boston has a better pick to offer, and some quality players to attach to it. If he even wants a chance to acquire Jimmy, he's going to have to pay a premium price.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 03:04 PM
While waiting and trying to be hopeful that one day Wiggins will be as good as Butler you could easily lose several of your other players. Need to improve more rapidly and being the 5th worst team in the NBA says Wiggins is far from Butler. If I'm Minnesota I pull the deal (seems good for both teams) but perhaps have Chicago throw in a second player for a 2nd round pick to balance things out.

A lot of teams have given up a lot more to get a lot less. Butler is young and very solid. at 26 its not like your core becomes immediately old.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 03:18 PM
There's a bit of risk involved here for the Wolves organization too. I get people saying they'd rather stand pat, but how long are MN fans willing to risk continue missing the playoffs for?

I know this is probably the best young core they've ever had, but it seems for the last decade they've been in this position, only to never take that next step. Thibs wants Butler probably pretty bad, and the last thing he probably wants is a roster made up mainly of guys on rookie contracts. If he plays the wait game, Butler is likely gone to someone else, missing his chance for a player that perfectly fits his style. Boston has a better pick to offer, and some quality players to attach to it. If he even wants a chance to acquire Jimmy, he's going to have to pay a premium price.

we won 13 more games last year than the year prior. The last 1/3 of the season, we were actually a decent team, and won some games that we would have been killed in prior years. Adding Noah/Deng type players this offseason, and another year under Wiggins/Lavine/Town's belts, with the ice defense coming, and Thibs coaching, I think we can reasonably compete for the playoffs this season. I wouldn't be surprised at all with 45-48 wins, and a tough round 1 series (we match up well with GS for some actually, from a lower seed respect).

I just think it might be a year too soon to cash in assets. Thib's doesn't even know exactly what he has yet.

All I want is a year to cook this baby, and adding some vets that can actually still play (versus KG, Prince, Miller, who just collected a check or sucked).

If Sam Mitchell can get what he did out of Wiggins, Lavine, and Towns, imagine what Thib's can do. All I want is to see it for a year. Then cash in some chips if you think you can make your team better.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 03:22 PM
There's a bit of risk involved here for the Wolves organization too. I get people saying they'd rather stand pat, but how long are MN fans willing to risk continue missing the playoffs for?

I know this is probably the best young core they've ever had, but it seems for the last decade they've been in this position, only to never take that next step. Thibs wants Butler probably pretty bad, and the last thing he probably wants is a roster made up mainly of guys on rookie contracts. If he plays the wait game, Butler is likely gone to someone else, missing his chance for a player that perfectly fits his style. Boston has a better pick to offer, and some quality players to attach to it. If he even wants a chance to acquire Jimmy, he's going to have to pay a premium price.

we have never had this much young talent. Towns, barring injury, could easily surpass KG as our best player ever. Wiggins, at the very least, will be a 20 ppg wing defender. Our players don't overlap, they are athletic, and want to be good. Rubio is underrated, and might not be in the long term plan, but he is a good PG for what we have currently.

We have never had this much young talent on a roster. Not even the KG/Starbury/Googs days.

If my negative *** is giddy, you know I am excited about this team. Dude, Towns is awesome. Wiggins, I think, will be an all star level player. Lavine we can't figure out, but seems to be he will be a good starting SG at some point soon. Dieng is as good as gone, Shabazz, we will see, and we have the #5 pick to grab a shooter, or Dunn (if we want plan B at PG)

mngopher35
06-14-2016, 03:41 PM
I guess is a thing of hoping. Hoping Wiggins can become what everyone expects him to become. But IDK, trading him for Butler isn't definitely a good move. But not wanting Butler because you already have Wiggins could backfire.

I love the young core too, I'm not a Wolves fan but I'm high on them. As soon as I saw Thibs becoming the HC I said "this can be great", having young, athletic and energetic guys learning team defense from one of the bests can be a success.

I think many Wolves fans thought and are thinking the same type of thing. Our weakness is team defense (partially just from being too young and not having completete understanding) and that is what Thibs is known for. This group seems to really like each other off the court and mesh pretty well talent wise on the court if they can improve defensively (all have potential there and have improved too).

To give a little more reason as to why we think that giving this group some time with Thibs I will go into the latter part of the year for us, when Mitchell finally let the young guys play. From February to the end of the year we won 15/33 games for a .455 win%. Our young players like Lavine/Dieng were averaging 35 minutes compared to 20 minutes earlier in the season so it was mostly based off their contributions (Rubio/Wiggins/Towns also played their normals, those were the 5 starters most of that time frame).

Wiggins put up: 21 ppg, 40% 3pt (over 2 shot per game) .489% fg
Lavine put up: 16 ppg, 43% 3pt (over 5 shot per game) .468% fg
Towns put up: 21 ppg, .298 3pt (over 1 shot per game) .548% fg

So to end their rookie/sophmore seasons they lead us close to a playoff win % in the west (I think .500) if done all year while scoring almost 60 ppg on solid efficiency. This while Towns already flashed defensively and both the wings showed 1v1 capabilities but lack of team defense overall. It really doesn't seem like the right time to try trading for an older version of a player we already have with these guys late performance and adding Thibs (huge upgrade from Mitchell). We can do as Hawk mentioned and add a vet or two like deng/noah and then also the 5th pick to that group as well. The expectations should be playoffs this year to be honest with or without Butler. Obviously he makes us better but not to the point of competing IMO so why not just keep the route as is and try to build an overall talented team instead of going all in for Butler and losing that extra depth/talent to kinda double up on a similar skill set (Butler/Wiggins) which then negates Rubio who actually fits with the current core well (defense/playmaking/rebounding which Lavine/Wiggins lack).

Trading for Butler ensures playoffs this year but imo limits the top end of this team which is to potentially compete for championships in say 4 years and have a 7? year window to do it if players pan out favorably. GS and OKC are the examples I think that most resemble our core even if we are definitely a step behind them that should be our outline. Towns is going to be a superstar IMO and Wiggins has a decent chance to become an impact player like Butler IMO as well. Rubio/Lavine/Dieng all have good skill sets to mesh and provide good potential/depth while we also have the 5th pick to add to the group. I say we keep growing and at least give Thibs a chance with this group but who knows maybe he sees it differently.

Alayla
06-14-2016, 04:07 PM
Minny is in the position the Sixers where expecting to be in right now it would be unspeakably stupid to move any of there core right now. Maybe more Deing and Rubio for whatever it nets you. Otherwise draft Dunn, Heild or Murray and call it a day.

hugepatsfan
06-14-2016, 04:30 PM
I think many Wolves fans thought and are thinking the same type of thing. Our weakness is team defense (partially just from being too young and not having completete understanding) and that is what Thibs is known for. This group seems to really like each other off the court and mesh pretty well talent wise on the court if they can improve defensively (all have potential there and have improved too).

To give a little more reason as to why we think that giving this group some time with Thibs I will go into the latter part of the year for us, when Mitchell finally let the young guys play. From February to the end of the year we won 15/33 games for a .455 win%. Our young players like Lavine/Dieng were averaging 35 minutes compared to 20 minutes earlier in the season so it was mostly based off their contributions (Rubio/Wiggins/Towns also played their normals, those were the 5 starters most of that time frame).

Wiggins put up: 21 ppg, 40% 3pt (over 2 shot per game) .489% fg
Lavine put up: 16 ppg, 43% 3pt (over 5 shot per game) .468% fg
Towns put up: 21 ppg, .298 3pt (over 1 shot per game) .548% fg

So to end their rookie/sophmore seasons they lead us close to a playoff win % in the west (I think .500) if done all year while scoring almost 60 ppg on solid efficiency. This while Towns already flashed defensively and both the wings showed 1v1 capabilities but lack of team defense overall. It really doesn't seem like the right time to try trading for an older version of a player we already have with these guys late performance and adding Thibs (huge upgrade from Mitchell). We can do as Hawk mentioned and add a vet or two like deng/noah and then also the 5th pick to that group as well. The expectations should be playoffs this year to be honest with or without Butler. Obviously he makes us better but not to the point of competing IMO so why not just keep the route as is and try to build an overall talented team instead of going all in for Butler and losing that extra depth/talent to kinda double up on a similar skill set (Butler/Wiggins) which then negates Rubio who actually fits with the current core well (defense/playmaking/rebounding which Lavine/Wiggins lack).

Trading for Butler ensures playoffs this year but imo limits the top end of this team which is to potentially compete for championships in say 4 years and have a 7? year window to do it if players pan out favorably. GS and OKC are the examples I think that most resemble our core even if we are definitely a step behind them that should be our outline. Towns is going to be a superstar IMO and Wiggins has a decent chance to become an impact player like Butler IMO as well. Rubio/Lavine/Dieng all have good skill sets to mesh and provide good potential/depth while we also have the 5th pick to add to the group. I say we keep growing and at least give Thibs a chance with this group but who knows maybe he sees it differently.

I'm with everything you say except the bolded. He doesn't limit your top end at all. All the reasons you give are valid for why there's good belief that you guys have a core that will be very good. But trading a couple of those young pieces for an ELITE player does not limit your top end at all. It's not like he's on his last legs. He's 26 and signed for multiple seasons - in the prime of his career.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 04:40 PM
I'm with everything you say except the bolded. He doesn't limit your top end at all. All the reasons you give are valid for why there's good belief that you guys have a core that will be very good. But trading a couple of those young pieces for an ELITE player does not limit your top end at all. It's not like he's on his last legs. He's 26 and signed for multiple seasons - in the prime of his career.

Finally someone with some sense. Fools acting like Butler is in the last year of a contract at 34. He is everything you want in a 2 guard. Elite score and top level defender. If Wiggins ever gets that good the Timberwolves will be lucky. Also there's a decent shot the #5 pick turns into nothing. Don't over value youth.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 05:01 PM
Finally someone with some sense. Fools acting like Butler is in the last year of a contract at 34. He is everything you want in a 2 guard. Elite score and top level defender. If Wiggins ever gets that good the Timberwolves will be lucky. Also there's a decent shot the #5 pick turns into nothing. Don't over value youth.

for the first time ever, we don't need our high lottery pick to be anything more than a contributing player. At #5, we will get one most likely. Especially if it's Dunn, Hield, or Murray.

Twolves88
06-14-2016, 05:03 PM
Finally someone with some sense. Fools acting like Butler is in the last year of a contract at 34. He is everything you want in a 2 guard. Elite score and top level defender. If Wiggins ever gets that good the Timberwolves will be lucky. Also there's a decent shot the #5 pick turns into nothing. Don't over value youth.

Probably not a good idea to refer other posters as fools to start. Second we aren't speaking in terms of "now". The goal is not to just make the playoffs but to have an established roster to compete for a long time. I could care less if we make the playoffs now. The fact is that our team needs to grow together as a unit just like OKC did a few years ago. We should not risk losing our current core group of players for another player that already has a large contract. Right now our core is 20-23 years old 3 years younger then butler. When our team starts to compete butler will be 29. While this isn't really horribly old it is in terms of having a balanced team stick together for a long term. At 29 he also might be demanding his last large contract of his playing career. This could cause it to be difficult to resign any of our current prospects in towns, wiggins, lavine ect.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 05:04 PM
for the first time ever, we don't need our high lottery pick to be anything more than a contributing player. At #5, we will get one most likely. Especially if it's Dunn, Hield, or Murray.

Really difficult to gauge that. Especially with this weak draft class. Neither Dunn or Murray were even huge impact players in college. Could get Wade, then again, could get Sheldon Williams.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 05:05 PM
I'm with everything you say except the bolded. He doesn't limit your top end at all. All the reasons you give are valid for why there's good belief that you guys have a core that will be very good. But trading a couple of those young pieces for an ELITE player does not limit your top end at all. It's not like he's on his last legs. He's 26 and signed for multiple seasons - in the prime of his career.

Correct. While I still lean keeping our young core together, it's not like I would have a hissyfit if we traded Lavine/Dieng/#5 for Butler for example.

An opposite view could come from this too, with Butler/Wiggins/Rubio/Towns, etc, we are in the playoffs earlier, getting our 2 young studs and the rest of the team getting valuable playoff minutes early in their career, which could help down the line.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 05:09 PM
Really difficult to gauge that. Especially with this weak draft class. Neither Dunn or Murray were even huge impact players in college. Could get Wade, then again, could get Sheldon Williams.

this class is actually regarded as non-star heavy, but very deep.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 05:11 PM
As a non Wolves fan you have to be ready to accept the fact that keeping your entire core together until they are all good is not reasonable. They are all on low level contracts and they become much more expensive as time goes on. Can't be afraid to improve rapidly and give those players strong incentive to stick around. Otherwise you'll end up watching Towns player for the Lakers in a few years.

Vincent
06-14-2016, 05:12 PM
I think the Bulls asking for Wiggins is basically them telling them that they don't want to trade Butler

Stunner
06-14-2016, 05:12 PM
Really difficult to gauge that. Especially with this weak draft class. Neither Dunn or Murray were even huge impact players in college. Could get Wade, then again, could get Sheldon Williams.

Dunn is the next high potential guy outside of Ingram and Simmons tbh . You look at him and see a future all star PG potentially, he has all the tools to be so . He prob end up a John Wall lite and that would be a good get for any team looking for a pg of the future .

Bulls are extremely high on Dunn and there is only one way for them to get him , thing is they don't have the balls to do it .

hugepatsfan
06-14-2016, 05:14 PM
we have never had this much young talent. Towns, barring injury, could easily surpass KG as our best player ever. Wiggins, at the very least, will be a 20 ppg wing defender. Our players don't overlap, they are athletic, and want to be good. Rubio is underrated, and might not be in the long term plan, but he is a good PG for what we have currently.

We have never had this much young talent on a roster. Not even the KG/Starbury/Googs days.

If my negative *** is giddy, you know I am excited about this team. Dude, Towns is awesome. Wiggins, I think, will be an all star level player. Lavine we can't figure out, but seems to be he will be a good starting SG at some point soon. Dieng is as good as gone, Shabazz, we will see, and we have the #5 pick to grab a shooter, or Dunn (if we want plan B at PG)

What would you want from BOS? I assume #16 wouldn't be enough... Bradley? #3? What would you say would be fair value (if you see any match)?


Correct. While I still lean keeping our young core together, it's not like I would have a hissyfit if we traded Lavine/Dieng/#5 for Butler for example.

An opposite view could come from this too, with Butler/Wiggins/Rubio/Towns, etc, we are in the playoffs earlier, getting our 2 young studs and the rest of the team getting valuable playoff minutes early in their career, which could help down the line.

You'd have 3 young studs with Butler ;)

That's why I like the deal for you guys if you can land him. I made the point the other day but I think Butler/Wiggins/Towns is like a young MIA Big 3. Towns IMO can be special. Wggins/Butler won't be prime Lebron/Wade (at least you can't expect them to be because those are all time great talents of the highest level).

You'd need shooters sure but you can find 3 and D guys around a big 3 of that caliber. Towns can be a top 3 big man in the whole NBA soon, maybe #1. Butler/Wiggins are both in the 5-10 range of wings in the whole NBA IMO. Two 20 years olds and a 26 year old all signed for MULTIPLE years on good deals. It really doesn't get any better than that to build around.

Stunner
06-14-2016, 05:15 PM
I think the Bulls asking for Wiggins is basically them telling them that they don't want to trade Butler

Well that's obvious nobody wants to trade people just to trade them but they aren't stupid. Dealing with this caliber of player it's your job to ask for a talent like that and then take things from there . If the Kings hypothetical did that with boogie it would be the same thing even asking for Towns almost .

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 05:17 PM
As a non Wolves fan you have to be ready to accept the fact that keeping your entire core together until they are all good is not reasonable. They are all on low level contracts and they become much more expensive as time goes on. Can't be afraid to improve rapidly and give those players strong incentive to stick around. Otherwise you'll end up watching Towns player for the Lakers in a few years.

bingo! Now you can build around them in FA, and when they are up, you decide who is a keeper, and who you trade/let go. The Wolves salary cap situation is very good, to add to the roster. And as Wiggins comes up, Pek falls off. Etc, etc.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 05:17 PM
potential all star eh

mngopher35
06-14-2016, 05:18 PM
I'm with everything you say except the bolded. He doesn't limit your top end at all. All the reasons you give are valid for why there's good belief that you guys have a core that will be very good. But trading a couple of those young pieces for an ELITE player does not limit your top end at all. It's not like he's on his last legs. He's 26 and signed for multiple seasons - in the prime of his career.

If you agree with my timeline then at a competing level he does limit that. As I stated my prediction is that Towns/Wiggins (and others if kept) need time to develop before truly being a contender. Maybe the next 3 seasons is working towards becoming that gradually (playoffs, 2nd round, WCF) and then when they are 24 or so they have a 7 ish year window if lucky/pan out right. If we agree that GS and OKC teams like them etc have a few more years until our players can grow/compete at the same level then that is where I am looking when judging our potential.

At that point Butler would be about 31 to start the run then and if as good as people think still getting top $. This is someone who relies on attacking the hoop and ft rate to help balance his efficiency as he is not a great shooter. AKA he will be declining by that point most likely. To me we now have to pay 3 stars without truly getting that elite Butler to pair with the developed young guys over their prime stretch. Keeping Lavine and the pick will give us two players in their prime to surround Wiggins/Towns with and also Dieng will only be low 30's like Butler. I would much prefer to have a well rounded and deep team than two overlapping skill sets on the wings (one of which is declining).

So while currently we obviously have a higher ceiling next season and the year after I feel like once we get the team developed it actually does limit how long we have to compete with Butler still being a top contributor. I am looking long term here and could really care less about ensuring a 6th seed compared to fighting for the 8th seed (or however it is seen for next season).

Hawkeye15
06-14-2016, 05:20 PM
What would you want from BOS? I assume #16 wouldn't be enough... Bradley? #3? What would you say would be fair value (if you see any match)?



You'd have 3 young studs with Butler ;)

That's why I like the deal for you guys if you can land him. I made the point the other day but I think Butler/Wiggins/Towns is like a young MIA Big 3. Towns IMO can be special. Wggins/Butler won't be prime Lebron/Wade (at least you can't expect them to be because those are all time great talents of the highest level).

You'd need shooters sure but you can find 3 and D guys around a big 3 of that caliber. Towns can be a top 3 big man in the whole NBA soon, maybe #1. Butler/Wiggins are both in the 5-10 range of wings in the whole NBA IMO. Two 20 years olds and a 26 year old all signed for MULTIPLE years on good deals. It really doesn't get any better than that to build around.

I absolutely get your point, I think you understand mine. I am not going to be pissed if we trade for Butler by any means. I prefer to see what Thib's can do for a year. Hell, Butler by all accounts may be available again next year.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 05:35 PM
If you agree with my timeline then at a competing level he does limit that. As I stated my prediction is that Towns/Wiggins (and others if kept) need time to develop before truly being a contender. Maybe the next 3 seasons is working towards becoming that gradually (playoffs, 2nd round, WCF) and then when they are 24 or so they have a 7 ish year window if lucky/pan out right. If we agree that GS and OKC teams like them etc have a few more years until our players can grow/compete at the same level then that is where I am looking when judging our potential.

At that point Butler would be about 31 to start the run then and if as good as people think still getting top $. This is someone who relies on attacking the hoop and ft rate to help balance his efficiency as he is not a great shooter. AKA he will be declining by that point most likely. To me we now have to pay 3 stars without truly getting that elite Butler to pair with the developed young guys over their prime stretch. Keeping Lavine and the pick will give us two players in their prime to surround Wiggins/Towns with and also Dieng will only be low 30's like Butler. I would much prefer to have a well rounded and deep team than two overlapping skill sets on the wings (one of which is declining).

So while currently we obviously have a higher ceiling next season and the year after I feel like once we get the team developed it actually does limit how long we have to compete with Butler still being a top contributor. I am looking long term here and could really care less about ensuring a 6th seed compared to fighting for the 8th seed (or however it is seen for next season).

So in 3 years Butler will only be 29. Your other problem is that assuming Wiggins, Towns, and Lavine all pan out there is no chance Minnesota can keep them all. The idea of a 7 year windows doesn't work. I think in order to keep a solid contending team for years you need to start showing you can be a legit contender within a year or two. That way free agents will want to come and the stars will want to stay. I don't see Towns or Lavine sticking around past their rookie contracts regardless.

twellner9
06-14-2016, 05:40 PM
bingo! Now you can build around them in FA, and when they are up, you decide who is a keeper, and who you trade/let go. The Wolves salary cap situation is very good, to add to the roster. And as Wiggins comes up, Pek falls off. Etc, etc.

Well I truly hope the wolves can pull it off. As a Bucks fan I'm hoping for the same thing. Its not easy to get free agents in this market though so you have to over pay for everyone. That favorable cap situation can disappear quickly. If it was me, I trade for Butler and go win now mode because I think he is the type of player FAs will come play with and Wiggins isn't there yet. Go big or go home!

mngopher35
06-14-2016, 05:49 PM
So in 3 years Butler will only be 29. Your other problem is that assuming Wiggins, Towns, and Lavine all pan out there is no chance Minnesota can keep them all. The idea of a 7 year windows doesn't work. I think in order to keep a solid contending team for years you need to start showing you can be a legit contender within a year or two. That way free agents will want to come and the stars will want to stay. I don't see Towns or Lavine sticking around past their rookie contracts regardless.

Why can't we keep them all? I feel like Cp3/Blake/DJ or Lebron/Love/Kyrie etc. show that you can have 3 high paid players like that. We also already have depth pieces to place around them who we can go over to re-sign so as long as we are willing to pay them. If that is the case they panned out like we hoped and would all be in their prime instead of declining...

So next year Butler is 27, 28, 29. He would be 30-36 the following 7 seasons after Towns/Wiggins hit that age/development of being ready in the scenario. Considering he is physical and relies on athletecism it is fair to think that he would be declining at that point, heavily by the last half. You seem just fine paying max money to that but have an issue doing it if Lavine pans out and his in his prime (while keeping depth available to surround them with)? I don't get that at all, I see a much bigger issue paying Butler at that age than worrying about overpaying those 3 in their prime if they pan out.

We need to make the playoffs in the next couple years I agree but we should be capable of that even without Butler. Wiggins has 2 more years and is then a RFA (same with Lavine) and Towns an extra year on top of that so we have plenty of time to grow. Tell me the last time a player took the QO to leave a place when they were up an coming team and could have made bank on their contracts. We have them all for at least 3 years and unless that scenario happens through another contract as well if we want (to offer or match).

beasted86
06-14-2016, 06:03 PM
They have sucked, for 12 years (well kinda forever outside 03-04'). However, their young core is for real. They played pretty well to close the year, Towns looks to be a future fixture on the all NBA teams, and they have plenty of money to sign vet contributors this summer, and next.

I would prefer to let the roster cook another season, than trade for a conflicting skillset player in Butler, who basically just does what Wiggins does a bit better across the board, which you would expect for a prime player versus a 21 year old.

You and I clearly don't see eye to eye on Rubio, and I know you have even commented that you haven't watched the Wolves much recently. I am as negative of a fan as it gets regarding my team. But Towns is for real, Wiggins looks to be a very good 2 way player within a couple years, and Lavine, we shall see.

I have no doubt Dieng goes, we can't afford to keep him. Bazz maybe as well. I really don't know what Thibs is going to do. If he makes a move for Butler, fine. But Towns/Wiggins had better not be included in any deals.

I'm not exactly disagreeing that Butler is not the ideal fit.

Where we seem to be disagreeing is letting the 'roster cook' for any longer. The Wolves are due to give Dieng a contract and LaVine and Wiggins extensions next summer. Those 3 will combine for a bare minimum of $50M (but more likely $60M+) of your cap going into 2018. You wait around and there won't be money to spend. Also another possibility is you go ahead onward thinking your young core is good enough to organically improve and if they aren't you end up like the Utah Jazz.

beasted86
06-14-2016, 06:12 PM
bingo! Now you can build around them in FA, and when they are up, you decide who is a keeper, and who you trade/let go. The Wolves salary cap situation is very good, to add to the roster. And as Wiggins comes up, Pek falls off. Etc, etc.

Minnesota is in a market situation that they aren't a free agent destination except for overpays for B level stars and overpays to role players. The young players they have are also in the pseudo star range that they will command a max contract whether they are worth it or not (barring injury).

So it's really either you believe this core can do it by itself in 2 years with just added role players, or they can't. If they can't you have to make a move this year/summer. But it doesn't have to be Butler per se.

numba1CHANGsta
06-14-2016, 06:23 PM
Sorry Wolves, this is what happens when your team is rich with assets, everyone will try to anal rape you in trades. Just stick with your young core and add FA's and maybe make a trade down the road.

5ass
06-14-2016, 06:23 PM
Vucevic to the Pelicans
Butler, Asik to the Magic
#6, Mario, #11, and maybe Payton to the Bulls

Bulls rebuild.

Pelicans get their second option and build around a potential dominant front court of Vucevic and Davis

Magic sign Conley and Horford.

Stunner
06-14-2016, 06:29 PM
Only way that deal gets done if Orlando gives up Vic or Gordon other than that the deal is heading nowhere.

Vee-Rex
06-14-2016, 06:32 PM
Thibs would be an idiot to include Towns/Wiggins in any deal to acquire Butler.

All the people clamoring about the trade are probably the same ones that called the Cavs idiots for contemplating keeping Wiggins instead of Love, and now they're the same ones bashing the Cavs for trading Wiggins for Love.

Wolves would be good to trade some combination of their young people (Bazz/Lavine/Dieng) along with a 1st for Butler.

Butler + Rubio + Thibs would establish a nasty perimeter defense which would be the foundation to making the playoffs. Then once Towns develop into a superstar and Wiggins an all-star, this team would be able to compete. It may take a few years but you do NOT get rid of Wiggins. In those few years, the team can add more pieces like shooters and defense, and then you worry about maxing out contracts when people like Wiggins and Towns earn them.

Very rarely (I think it has only happened once or twice ever) does a talented player finishing with his rookie contract opt-out and not sign a max extension with his rookie team.

5ass
06-14-2016, 06:33 PM
Only way that deal gets done if Orlando gives up Vic or Gordon other than that the deal is heading nowhere.

Fine by me, but I think that offer beats the Wolves' offer. I really doubt the Bulls get Gordon, Oladipo or Wiggins.

Vee-Rex
06-14-2016, 06:37 PM
If I'm the Wolves I trade any 2-player + pick combination of Lavine/Bazz/Dieng and the 5th overall for Butler.

Stunner
06-14-2016, 06:40 PM
Fine by me, but I think that offer beats the Wolves' offer. I really doubt the Bulls get Gordon, Oladipo or Wiggins.

Well Orlando has no reason to call the Bulls because that's the asking price no other young player in that team is appealing .


Bulls just doing the smart thing in asking for Wiggins as a starting point , the stupid thing is that Chicago will be stubborn and not see getting Lavine / Dieng and 5 for butler as a good get .

5ass
06-14-2016, 06:54 PM
Well Orlando has no reason to call the Bulls because that's the asking price no other young player in that team is appealing .


Bulls just doing the smart thing in asking for Wiggins as a starting point , the stupid thing is that Chicago will be stubborn and not see getting Lavine / Dieng and 5 for butler as a good get .

That's your opinion. A lot of GMs seemed to value Mario in the draft. I doubt you've seen enough of Mario to judge him. Payton is as appealing as Schroder to me, and one of the best young PGs in the league right now. Of all those PGs under 23 years old no one is producing all that well. and if I'm not mistaken the Bulls wanted to draft him in 2014. #6 and #11 picks would be nice to have in this draft.

I agree the Bulls asking price will be too high. I dont see them trading him even though I think they should.

Stunner
06-14-2016, 07:11 PM
That's your opinion. A lot of GMs seemed to value Mario in the draft. I doubt you've seen enough of Mario to judge him. Payton is as appealing as Schroder to me, and one of the best young PGs in the league right now. Of all those PGs under 23 years old no one is producing all that well. and if I'm not mistaken the Bulls wanted to draft him in 2014. #6 and #11 picks would be nice to have in this draft.

I agree the Bulls asking price will be too high. I dont see them trading him even though I think they should.

No I'm basing this off what I know what the Bulls want back for butler . Why in the blue hell would we want Payton when we want Dunn in the draft and then why would we want rio when you have players like Ola or Gordon on your roster that fits the established player build ? Sorry but that deal doesn't entice me or would the Bulls don't take it to heart .

beasted86
06-14-2016, 08:02 PM
Vucevic to the Pelicans
Butler, Asik to the Magic
#6, Mario, #11, and maybe Payton to the Bulls

Bulls rebuild.

Pelicans get their second option and build around a potential dominant front court of Vucevic and Davis

Magic sign Conley and Horford.

Asik is complete overpaid trash. Why would you give up Vucevic for him who is on a reasonable shorter term deal?

beasted86
06-14-2016, 08:07 PM
NVM, see why. Pels still rape this deal. Asik is that useless, and that overpaid to me.

5ass
06-14-2016, 08:51 PM
No I'm basing this off what I know what the Bulls want back for butler . Why in the blue hell would we want Payton when we want Dunn in the draft and then why would we want rio when you have players like Ola or Gordon on your roster that fits the established player build ? Sorry but that deal doesn't entice me or would the Bulls don't take it to heart .

Well just because the Magic have Oladipo and Gordon doesn't mean they have to give one up. The Bulls need to choose whether they want to trade him and rebuild or keep trying to make it work. Do they think they can improve the team enough to be a contender? If not then they'll start looking at trade offers. The Magic/Wolves/celtics aren't trying to match Butler's value. That isn't what usually happens when you trade a star. I know fans expect a lot in return, but if you look at the teams that traded their stars in the past few years, they didn't get much value. The hornets when they traded CP3, the magic when they traded Howard, thunder when they traded harden, melo, ect. The only player that got a good return were the Wolves in the unique situation where LeBron returned to Cleveland. So yeah unless Durant is coming to sign with Butler in Orlando I don't think its worth it to give up Oladipo or Gordon. What the Magic/Wolves/Celtics are trying to do is beat each other and other teams' offers. I think the Magic and Wolves will hold on to their biggest chips though, and I don't think the Celtics will gut their team for him. The Bulls can choose to sell to the highest bidder, or make what IMO is the wrong decision and keep on trying to build around Jimmy.

As for Dunn. He's just a prospect, and the draft gets overrated every year. I don't know much about him, but I know he's not a good shooter and he's the same age as Payton. He could be better, he could be worse, but I'm not seeing a lot of people saying he's a future all star. There are other intriguing PGs in the draft that can be had at 11, but if you're convinced Dunn is the guy for you, the Bulls could use the 6th, with the 11th and/or Payton to move up. That's if he's not available at 6th.

5ass
06-14-2016, 08:54 PM
NVM, see why. Pels still rape this deal. Asik is that useless, and that overpaid to me.

I agree, but just for argument's sake...

Dade County
06-14-2016, 10:57 PM
for the life of me, I don't understand why the Wolves are after Butler, when they have a young Wiggins who will literally be him, or better, within 2 years.

I just don't get it.


Well 2 wing players that are athletic and can play defense. It's a good move if they don't give up too much for Butler.

Also I think the key would be, who would be the PF for the team.

I've been thinking about it, Patrick Beverley would be a very good pg in Thibs system.


Beverley (I din't no if he should be starting though)
Butler
Wiggins
?
KAT

That defense would be really good. Once again, I think whoever is the PF can push this team into the playoffs.

You can go stretch 4 or a defensive player like Biyombo. Or go small ball and target Batum.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2016, 11:08 PM
I told people it starts with their pick and wiggins and that is exactly what is being reported.... You dont get butler without wiggins... which is fair.. We severely severely overrate draft picks/prospects when it comes to some of the better players in basketball... butler/cousins/Noel/Oka and so on down the list... They are 2 proven top players in basketball followed by one of the best defenders in basketball and a dude with insane offensive potential that proved he can play in this league and for some reason we feel as though certain picks arent worth these players.... to certain teams the situation might dictate certain value for picks over players but again butler/cousins specifically would cost a ton and its justifiable.

hugepatsfan
06-15-2016, 09:02 AM
I absolutely get your point, I think you understand mine. I am not going to be pissed if we trade for Butler by any means. I prefer to see what Thib's can do for a year. Hell, Butler by all accounts may be available again next year.

I can understand that.

But you said in your last post that Dieng was good as gone? What needs to happen to make sure he's gone to the Celtics? I assume you meant by FA next year but would you trade him now and get something?

twellner9
06-15-2016, 09:16 AM
Why can't we keep them all? I feel like Cp3/Blake/DJ or Lebron/Love/Kyrie etc. show that you can have 3 high paid players like that. We also already have depth pieces to place around them who we can go over to re-sign so as long as we are willing to pay them. If that is the case they panned out like we hoped and would all be in their prime instead of declining...

So next year Butler is 27, 28, 29. He would be 30-36 the following 7 seasons after Towns/Wiggins hit that age/development of being ready in the scenario. Considering he is physical and relies on athletecism it is fair to think that he would be declining at that point, heavily by the last half. You seem just fine paying max money to that but have an issue doing it if Lavine pans out and his in his prime (while keeping depth available to surround them with)? I don't get that at all, I see a much bigger issue paying Butler at that age than worrying about overpaying those 3 in their prime if they pan out.

We need to make the playoffs in the next couple years I agree but we should be capable of that even without Butler. Wiggins has 2 more years and is then a RFA (same with Lavine) and Towns an extra year on top of that so we have plenty of time to grow. Tell me the last time a player took the QO to leave a place when they were up an coming team and could have made bank on their contracts. We have them all for at least 3 years and unless that scenario happens through another contract as well if we want (to offer or match).

You keep forgetting the fact that "if" is a huge word in this case. Why wait for and if when you can have a yes right now. The problem isn't necessarily paying 3 guys max money its that doing this leaves you with virtually no bench. The reason Golden State is so good is because their star players aren't on max contracts. Additionally I don't think all three guys will want to stay. Whomever is the second or third guy in this scenario will eventually want to branch out and show they can star on their own (assuming they all pan out).

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 09:32 AM
I can understand that.

But you said in your last post that Dieng was good as gone? What needs to happen to make sure he's gone to the Celtics? I assume you meant by FA next year but would you trade him now and get something?

Yes, there is no reason to pay him what he will get in RFA. There will be teams that view him as a starting center, and we have no business matching an offer with Towns in fold.

I would love to move him by trade deadline this year. A protected first is probably the best we will get. Otherwise, a shooter who can play real minutes.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 09:36 AM
I'm not exactly disagreeing that Butler is not the ideal fit.

Where we seem to be disagreeing is letting the 'roster cook' for any longer. The Wolves are due to give Dieng a contract and LaVine and Wiggins extensions next summer. Those 3 will combine for a bare minimum of $50M (but more likely $60M+) of your cap going into 2018. You wait around and there won't be money to spend. Also another possibility is you go ahead onward thinking your young core is good enough to organically improve and if they aren't you end up like the Utah Jazz.

Dieng is redundant and we can't afford him.

To be fair, Towns alone is better than anything the Jazz have by a mile.

hugepatsfan
06-15-2016, 10:19 AM
Yes, there is no reason to pay him what he will get in RFA. There will be teams that view him as a starting center, and we have no business matching an offer with Towns in fold.

I would love to move him by trade deadline this year. A protected first is probably the best we will get. Otherwise, a shooter who can play real minutes.

I'd love BOS to make a move for him.

If we end up keeping #3 I think we probably go with Murray. We could run with IT/Bradley as the starters and Smart/Murray as the bench. BUT that leaves Rozier without a role and I think he's going to be a solid player. I think he'll be a great defender and offensive contributor. Just a role player but a solid one. Plus I think we wouldn't be utilizing the full abilities of the guards in the rotation. All 4 would be less minutes than I think they're capable of to accommodate all of them having a regular role.

I was thinking we could move Bradley to you guys for Dieng. Then we put Smart with IT in the starting lineup and have Rozier/Murray on the bench. You have a nice offense/defense combo with each unit. And now you fill the void int he front court for a big man.

I haven't watched him as much as you but from Dieng it seems he's an all around good player. Not elite at anything but can defend and has a lil bit of an outside shot. I think he'd be a real nice fit. For you guys, Bradley solidifies the SG and gives you ANOTHER great defender in the lineup to join Rubio/Wiggins. You know that makes Thibs all warm and fuzzy inside. Bradley isn't a "sniper" but he's a good shooter from 3 and can come off screens pretty well. He's signed on a good deal for another couple of seasons and will still be young when he's a FA so worth re-signing. Great teammate too. He'd be a great fit with you guys IMO.

jonathank84
06-15-2016, 10:21 AM
Minnesota coming up!

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 10:26 AM
I'd love BOS to make a move for him.

If we end up keeping #3 I think we probably go with Murray. We could run with IT/Bradley as the starters and Smart/Murray as the bench. BUT that leaves Rozier without a role and I think he's going to be a solid player. I think he'll be a great defender and offensive contributor. Just a role player but a solid one. Plus I think we wouldn't be utilizing the full abilities of the guards in the rotation. All 4 would be less minutes than I think they're capable of to accommodate all of them having a regular role.

I was thinking we could move Bradley to you guys for Dieng. Then we put Smart with IT in the starting lineup and have Rozier/Murray on the bench. You have a nice offense/defense combo with each unit. And now you fill the void int he front court for a big man.

I haven't watched him as much as you but from Dieng it seems he's an all around good player. Not elite at anything but can defend and has a lil bit of an outside shot. I think he'd be a real nice fit. For you guys, Bradley solidifies the SG and gives you ANOTHER great defender in the lineup to join Rubio/Wiggins. You know that makes Thibs all warm and fuzzy inside. Bradley isn't a "sniper" but he's a good shooter from 3 and can come off screens pretty well. He's signed on a good deal for another couple of seasons and will still be young when he's a FA so worth re-signing. Great teammate too. He'd be a great fit with you guys IMO.

Dieng is a nice player. You can't play him more than 25ish mpg, he tends to wear down. His defense is not bad, he tends to give up ground and try to coil up for a block, instead of heading a player off, so he does give up ground, which kills him. But he can pass, dribble, shoot, is an excellent FT shooter, and is a good all around player.

Trust me, I would LOVE it if he just accepted a $8-10 million a year deal and played backup big (PF/C), but he will command more than that.

Bradley is a defensive monster. Depending on what we do with our pick, I would be interested in it probably.

twellner9
06-15-2016, 10:56 AM
I think Wolves fans are over selling their hand. The fact is you may look at the roster and think about how much young talent there is assume you are the next great thing. But in the real world the Wolves are still finishing near to bottom of the league and they have a long ways to go.

smith&wesson
06-15-2016, 11:31 AM
Wiggins, KAT, & Butler would be a nice little core. Rubio, Dieng, Lavine + the 5th?

Then the bulls can move Rose, and pair Rubio up with Pau if they wanted too.

smith&wesson
06-15-2016, 11:32 AM
I think Wolves fans are over selling their hand. The fact is you may look at the roster and think about how much young talent there is assume you are the next great thing. But in the real world the Wolves are still finishing near to bottom of the league and they have a long ways to go.

their best player is a rookie, and their 2nd best player is a sophomore... give them a break, they are developing lol.

dnl123
06-15-2016, 11:37 AM
I think Wolves fans are over selling their hand. The fact is you may look at the roster and think about how much young talent there is assume you are the next great thing. But in the real world the Wolves are still finishing near to bottom of the league and they have a long ways to go.

I guess we'll see. Any competent basketball fan can see that the Wolves have as much potential as any team in the league. Also, I like our team much better than your Bucks who in the real world have been stuck in mediocrity or worse since Kareem left in the 70's.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 11:52 AM
Dieng is redundant and we can't afford him.

To be fair, Towns alone is better than anything the Jazz have by a mile.

If you're asking me, Favors + Gobert > Towns + Dieng/Garnett for right now. Also Hayward > Wiggins for right now. Also Burks + Hood > Rubio + Lavine just for good measure, also right now.

Now I know these comparisons are only partially relevant since some of the Wolves are younger. What I'm saying though is 2-3 years from now their core will be the same age though. But I guess it all depends on how much internal growth you think these guys have before they have hit their ceiling. And if that growth to the ceiling only results in a playoff team or a contender. Jazz also haven't hit their ceiling, but from what I'm seeing so far they won't be a contender, just a playoff team possibly without the ability to draw free agents similar to the Minnesota market.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 11:57 AM
If you're asking me, Favors + Gobert > Towns + Dieng/Garnett for right now. Also Hayward > Wiggins for right now. Also Burks + Hood > Rubio + Lavine just for good measure, also right now.

Now I know these comparisons are only partially relevant since some of the Wolves are younger. What I'm saying though is 2-3 years from now their core will be the same age though. But I guess it all depends on how much internal growth you think these guys have before they have hit their ceiling. And if that growth to the ceiling only results in a playoff team or a contender. Jazz also haven't hit their ceiling, but from what I'm seeing so far they won't be a contender, just a playoff team possibly without the ability to draw free agents similar to the Minnesota market.

2 guys entering their peak...

Towns is a future fixture on the all NBA teams. We have a player much better than anything Utah will have.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 12:00 PM
2 guys entering their peak...

Towns is a future fixture on the all NBA teams. We have a player much better than anything Utah will have.

So you believe the core as is will be a playoff team by default within 3 years, and all they'll need is a set of role players to push to contender?

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 12:16 PM
So you believe the core as is will be a playoff team by default within 3 years, and all they'll need is a set of role players to push to contender?

I won't go so far as to say contender, they are way too far away from that right now. But I don't believe we need to make a move for an established star player at this point, no.

I fundamentally believe Towns will be a top 5 player in the game. That alone gives you the opportunity to build a contender around him. I do believe we have a potential 2nd banana in Wiggins, and the right pieces to have a roster that can add some quality role players around it and contend, if development progresses as expected.

I am a very skeptical Wolves fan. I was 14 when your team, and my team started. I have seen them mess up everything, countless times. So no way I can sit here and tell you we won't do it again. But this is easily the best young core in the NBA, and the brightest future we have ever had. Does that mean a Glen Taylor run team won't **** it up? Meh, not really. I guess I just truly believe in Towns, and I think Wiggins floor is good enough, and the right core is present in Minnesota.

twellner9
06-15-2016, 12:27 PM
I guess we'll see. Any competent basketball fan can see that the Wolves have as much potential as any team in the league. Also, I like our team much better than your Bucks who in the real world have been stuck in mediocrity or worse since Kareem left in the 70's.

Ha are you really talking about my teams mediocrity? Coming from a TWolves fan, a team that's only made it past the first round once. Our core is just as young with just as high of a ceiling if not higher, and we have already won more.

This being said, any competent basketball fan knows that potential means nothing. Pretty sure at one time Kwame Brown, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, and Greg Oden were all considered loaded with potential. And if you want to say, well our players are already showing their not busts, several people thought the same thing about MCW when he won rookie of the year. Doesn't look so good now.

twellner9
06-15-2016, 12:33 PM
Its all good to be high on your team. Any fan should be. But you need to be realistic. It wasn't that long ago New Orleans was supposed to be the next great team. Now its my Bucks and your Wolves. But it isn't that easy and most small market teams will turn into the Pelicans not the Thunder.

mngopher35
06-15-2016, 01:27 PM
You keep forgetting the fact that "if" is a huge word in this case. Why wait for and if when you can have a yes right now. The problem isn't necessarily paying 3 guys max money its that doing this leaves you with virtually no bench. The reason Golden State is so good is because their star players aren't on max contracts. Additionally I don't think all three guys will want to stay. Whomever is the second or third guy in this scenario will eventually want to branch out and show they can star on their own (assuming they all pan out).

No, I understand that if is important here. Again you seem worried about paying Lavine max off his rookie contract due to leaving us with no bench but it is exactly what you want if we go the Butler route. At his age Butler will be eligible for more money and we wouldn't have rights on Dieng or our pick anymore so losing two of those bench pieces you mention. Again the issues you bring up are only amplified by going for Butler. There is also an if with him in that if we haven't competed or won in the next 4 years he might not be as valuable moving forward or worth a max contract we might give him. There is if in every scenario. To your last point tell me when/how you see that coming. We have their rights as rookies and they become RFA so you are basically saying that they will turn down big money from a contending team and not sign with anyone else to take a QO to leave this team where so far they all seem to love playing together. Again show me the scenarios where this has happened in the NBA where players actually turn down max type contracts on up and coming teams to sign the QO (since the assumption you also make is we will be paying them too much).

Going back to my old post we have a trio in their 1st and 2nd years capable of ending the last 33 games with a .45 win% while scoring 60 ppg pretty efficiently. We have players like Dieng/Rubio currently around them with assets like cap space, shabazz, Bjelica, Tyus (these three would be back ups of course or throw ins via trades), 5th pick as well. So we have a core with a few pieces that currently help round them out or could be used to do so. We have yet to see what this group can do after actually having time to develop or be coached by someone competent (Mitchell was very bad much of the season, that last 33 games he started getting rotations better and that's what happened). I don't see the point of going all in a few years early before we even really get a chance to see what this core is capable of together given the issues mentioned in my last few posts with going for Butler.

mngopher35
06-15-2016, 01:34 PM
So you believe the core as is will be a playoff team by default within 3 years, and all they'll need is a set of role players to push to contender?

I would hope we are on the verge next year and in by year 2 of Thibs. If it took 3 years I would think there was an issue with my initial assessment of the team (assuming no major injuries). Adding the 5th pick and say Noah+Deng in the off season (easy targets since played under Thibs, just something like that) would have us borderline this season. We were already like the 12th team for offense without growth or great coaching, we just need to become respectable on the other end and I think those additions plus Thibs developing the young guys should get us there. He is known for his team defense which is our biggest area of needed improvement.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 01:51 PM
Ha are you really talking about my teams mediocrity? Coming from a TWolves fan, a team that's only made it past the first round once. Our core is just as young with just as high of a ceiling if not higher, and we have already won more.

This being said, any competent basketball fan knows that potential means nothing. Pretty sure at one time Kwame Brown, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, and Greg Oden were all considered loaded with potential. And if you want to say, well our players are already showing their not busts, several people thought the same thing about MCW when he won rookie of the year. Doesn't look so good now.

did any of them have a rookie year like Towns? The answer is no. Nobody has, since Duncan, or maybe Blake, when talking about big men.

dnl123
06-15-2016, 01:59 PM
Ha are you really talking about my teams mediocrity? Coming from a TWolves fan, a team that's only made it past the first round once. Our core is just as young with just as high of a ceiling if not higher, and we have already won more.

This being said, any competent basketball fan knows that potential means nothing. Pretty sure at one time Kwame Brown, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, and Greg Oden were all considered loaded with potential. And if you want to say, well our players are already showing their not busts, several people thought the same thing about MCW when he won rookie of the year. Doesn't look so good now.

I just wanted to burn ya a bit. haha. Nothing personal. Towns is special. You'll see soon enough. I do think the playoffs are in the Bucks future as well. Given the choice on the higher ceiling I'll take my Wolves.

effen5
06-15-2016, 02:45 PM
I think Wolves fans are over selling their hand. The fact is you may look at the roster and think about how much young talent there is assume you are the next great thing. But in the real world the Wolves are still finishing near to bottom of the league and they have a long ways to go.

I think your underestimating them a touch.

While the bulls roster was changed during the 2010 season, everyone bought into thibs system and the team saw an 18 game win increase from the prior season.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 03:08 PM
I think your underestimating them a touch.

While the bulls roster was changed during the 2010 season, everyone bought into thibs system and the team saw an 18 game win increase from the prior season.

You're talking about turning a team that was already a playoff team into a contender with a good free agent and the right system.

Right now Wolves are a bottom dweller, and I'd hope the goal here would be playoffs within 3 and contending within 5 years.

If they sit on their roster, I'm pretty confident they will never be a consistent home court playoff team by just adding role players and letting the main guys develop.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 03:14 PM
I won't go so far as to say contender, they are way too far away from that right now. But I don't believe we need to make a move for an established star player at this point, no.

I fundamentally believe Towns will be a top 5 player in the game. That alone gives you the opportunity to build a contender around him. I do believe we have a potential 2nd banana in Wiggins, and the right pieces to have a roster that can add some quality role players around it and contend, if development progresses as expected.

I am a very skeptical Wolves fan. I was 14 when your team, and my team started. I have seen them mess up everything, countless times. So no way I can sit here and tell you we won't do it again. But this is easily the best young core in the NBA, and the brightest future we have ever had. Does that mean a Glen Taylor run team won't **** it up? Meh, not really. I guess I just truly believe in Towns, and I think Wiggins floor is good enough, and the right core is present in Minnesota.

Well there's probably not much I can say to sway your optimism. All I can say is Anthony Davis was looked at the same way and the Pels are horrible, and look like they need a rebuild just to get back to playoff status, let alone contend.

Towns reaching your suggested ceiling will not be enough to contend for a championship unless Wiggins joins him at near the same caliber.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 03:36 PM
Well there's probably not much I can say to sway your optimism. All I can say is Anthony Davis was looked at the same way and the Pels are horrible, and look like they need a rebuild just to get back to playoff status, let alone contend.

Towns reaching your suggested ceiling will not be enough to contend for a championship unless Wiggins joins him at near the same caliber.

to be fair, Davis can't stay healthy, and hasn't been able to build upon year 2 to save his life. That roster is also flawed up and down. But I absolutely get what you are trying to say. Depending on potential is always risky, no doubt.

Yes, Wiggins will need to become an all star level player. Some combination of Lavine/Rubio/#5, or somewhere, also need to be elite for their position. ****, the Warriors have arguably the 3 best players at their positions, and even they are in a dogfight deep in the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2016, 03:37 PM
You're talking about turning a team that was already a playoff team into a contender with a good free agent and the right system.

Right now Wolves are a bottom dweller, and I'd hope the goal here would be playoffs within 3 and contending within 5 years.

If they sit on their roster, I'm pretty confident they will never be a consistent home court playoff team by just adding role players and letting the main guys develop.

I have been saying this entire thread, I want to let them cook a year under Thibs. It doesn't mean I would be against cashing in some chips for a star player. Butler is not my desired guy, so I have no interest in doing it THIS year, if that is the best we can do.

LaLa_Land
06-15-2016, 03:43 PM
There are two likely blockbuster deals that I can see happening this summer...

1. I believe the T'Wolves eventually cave in and facilitate a Wiggins for Butler swap. I can't imagine the Wolves gutting everything around KAT and Wiggins just to obtain Butler, and the #5 pick is nowhere near enough.

2. The Celtics send some youth and picks to the Knicks, the Knicks send 'Melo to the Caveliers, and the Caveliers send Love to the Celtics. (The Celtics love their white frontcourt lol - Olynyk, Lee, Jerebko)

mngopher35
06-15-2016, 04:40 PM
I think your underestimating them a touch.

While the bulls roster was changed during the 2010 season, everyone bought into thibs system and the team saw an 18 game win increase from the prior season.

I noticed that jump too and think based on last season for our team we can make one too. Thibs is easily a better coach than Mitchell and got to see the product when Lavine/Dieng were inserted as main players (as everyone but Mitchell thought). Between the lack of support around those guys which can be upgraded, upgrading to a coach like Thibs who seems perfect, and the further development of Towns/Wiggins/Lavine I think maybe like a 12-15 win improvement seems like a good (realistic) goal. Not quite the same jump but good enough to compete for a playoff spot by next season.

Meth
06-15-2016, 05:09 PM
If the offer is Wiggins + 5th pick for Butler (and fill-ins to match salary if needed), then the Wolves should absolutely take it. They won't get a player as good as Butler on the table for a couple years. Their perimeter defense is absolute trash, and Butler will change that. I don't think Wiggins will be as good as Butler. I see him being a Rudy Gay caliber player.

Rubio
Lavine
Butler
Dieng
Towns

Rubio is a statistical anomaly, in which he's a plus player on the floor despite being a poor shooter. If any Wolves fan could chime in and explain why

jerellh528
06-15-2016, 05:26 PM
Wtf hell no. Keep the 5th pick and Wiggins and pass on butler. If wolves give up 5 and Wiggins for butler, theyre dumb.

effen5
06-15-2016, 06:18 PM
You're talking about turning a team that was already a playoff team into a contender with a good free agent and the right system.

Right now Wolves are a bottom dweller, and I'd hope the goal here would be playoffs within 3 and contending within 5 years.

If they sit on their roster, I'm pretty confident they will never be a consistent home court playoff team by just adding role players and letting the main guys develop.

But you're talking about a Bulls team without Thibs, the only person to make the all star game since Michael Jordan was Derrick Rose.

You're talking about a coach, who took a team and every single player on the roster not just improved, but they improved dramatically. The players that were suppose to make an impact before Thibs didn't do much until Thibs made them into MVP, MIP, DPOY, All Stars.

I expect Minny to make a major jump next season and into the playoffs.

Meth
06-15-2016, 06:44 PM
I'm not sold on Wiggins being as good or better than Butler. A lot of room to grow of course, and he certainly will be a good player, just won't be as good as Butler. I'd do the deal if the offer is on the table.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 06:54 PM
But you're talking about a Bulls team without Thibs, the only person to make the all star game since Michael Jordan was Derrick Rose.

You're talking about a coach, who took a team and every single player on the roster not just improved, but they improved dramatically. The players that were suppose to make an impact before Thibs didn't do much until Thibs made them into MVP, MIP, DPOY, All Stars.

I expect Minny to make a major jump next season and into the playoffs.

I'm not sure why you're ignoring the fact that Deng was already a borderline all-star type player and actually had better stats with multiple 17-19 a game seasons before Thibs versus the year he actually made the all-star under Thibs. They also added Boozer who was already an all-star with the Jazz. You're giving too much credit to Thibs for the win improvement based on semantics like 'actual all-stars only = Rose'.


He does deserve a lot of the credit for putting the system in place that transformed their defense, allowed Rose to shine, and seamlessly integrated their signings Boozer, Korver, and Asik. Just not nearly as much as you are suggesting since many of these guys were established.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 07:00 PM
There's no way I'd trade Wiggins for Butler straight up, let alone include a pick.

5 and LaVine or 5 + Shabazz + future picks is more reasonable. Chicago always seems to overvalue their players until it's too late as in the case of Noah and Gibson.

mngopher35
06-15-2016, 07:09 PM
There's no way I'd trade Wiggins for Butler straight up, let alone include a pick.

5 and LaVine or 5 + Shabazz + future picks is more reasonable. Chicago always seems to overvalue their players until it's too late as in the case of Noah and Gibson.

I would do the bold for sure. I would also probably do 5+Shabazz+Dieng if that wasn't enough. If we had to use Lavine I would try to keep Dieng and maybe throw in shabazz+Pek contract (then we have money to also try for say Horford if going all in). I think those are about where my cut off is though given the other things I have mentioned in the thread. Butler is a great player and I like him I just don't think he is the right guy to go in for at this time.

I honestly think Celtics make sense as a team who can match/exceed our offers and might be trying to buy for right now. I want to see this team under Thibs unless a deal that's too good to pass comes up.

5ass
06-15-2016, 07:32 PM
I would do the bold for sure. I would also probably do 5+Shabazz+Dieng if that wasn't enough. If we had to use Lavine I would try to keep Dieng and maybe throw in shabazz+Pek contract (then we have money to also try for say Horford if going all in). I think those are about where my cut off is though given the other things I have mentioned in the thread. Butler is a great player and I like him I just don't think he is the right guy to go in for at this time.

I honestly think Celtics make sense as a team who can match/exceed our offers and might be trying to buy for right now. I want to see this team under Thibs unless a deal that's too good to pass comes up.

So if you're okay with Lavine+#5 are you really going to refuse the deal because the Bulls want Dieng and/or Shabazz? Guys who you can easily replace in FA...

When you're acquiring a player of Butler's caliber those type of players don't matter much IMO. Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Shabazz is almost 24 and Dieng is 26, I think they're likely to be solid bench guys on a contender, Gourgie could be a solid starter but not likely on the Wolves. To me they're just trade sweeteners like future 1st round picks. I don't think the wolves can offer future picks though since they owe one to the Hawks I think?

effen5
06-15-2016, 07:33 PM
I'm not sure why you're ignoring the fact that Deng was already a borderline all-star type player and actually had better stats with multiple 17-19 a game seasons before Thibs versus the year he actually made the all-star under Thibs. They also added Boozer who was already an all-star with the Jazz. You're giving too much credit to Thibs for the win improvement based on semantics like 'actual all-stars only = Rose'.


He does deserve a lot of the credit for putting the system in place that transformed their defense, allowed Rose to shine, and seamlessly integrated their signings Boozer, Korver, and Asik. Just not nearly as much as you are suggesting since many of these guys were established.

Deng was not a borderline all star. He's had decent seasons but I would never consider him a borderline all star. He's just been a really good role player. You should know this, especially since you get to watch him on a daily basis.

But no, I'm not giving him too much credit. His system is one of the main reasons why the Bulls have been where they have been. Clearly, this team hasn't had that much talent outside of Derrick. That was even more obvious when the Bulls couldn't even make the playoffs in the east and Derrick was healthy majority of the year.

His system is the reason why a roster of Marco, Nate, soph Jimmy, Boozer and Noah made it to the playoffs in 2012/2013 when that roster alone should not have been in the playoffs let alone beat the Nets in a 7 game series and even steal a game from your Heat.

mngopher35
06-15-2016, 07:48 PM
I would do the bold for sure. I would also probably do 5+Shabazz+Dieng if that wasn't enough. If we had to use Lavine I would try to keep Dieng and maybe throw in shabazz+Pek contract (then we have money to also try for say Horford if going all in). I think those are about where my cut off is though given the other things I have mentioned in the thread. Butler is a great player and I like him I just don't think he is the right guy to go in for at this time.

I honestly think Celtics make sense as a team who can match/exceed our offers and might be trying to buy for right now. I want to see this team under Thibs unless a deal that's too good to pass comes up.

So if you're okay with Lavine+#5 are you really going to refuse the deal because the Bulls want Dieng and/or Shabazz? Guys who you can easily replace in FA...

When you're acquiring a player of Butler's caliber those type of players don't matter much IMO. Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Shabazz is almost 24 and Dieng is 26, I think they're likely to be solid bench guys on a contender, Gourgie could be a solid starter but not likely on the Wolves. To me they're just trade sweeteners like future 1st round picks. I don't think the wolves can offer future picks though since they owe one to the Hawks I think?

Sorry if that was confusing but I would not offer/look to trade lavine/5 for butler right now personally. I'm saying if we did I would hope it was with the intention to go after horford (aka them taking salary back on top of it). Butler/horford if guaranteed would be worth that probably to me (for sure by thibs I would think).

I really like lavine and think if thibs can get the defense right we might get a near all star caliber sg with range/defense. I think he is a difference maker.

Dieng is definitely a level or so below that but I really like him as a third big one day if we find a good pf. He probably isn't the difference in a butler deal unless I was just borderline before he was added or something.

Shabazz I don't really like a ton but think he can be a bench spark plug with how he attacks. He would never be the difference for butler.

Edit: Ya I'm pretty sure we owe our 18 pick already so future picks would mean in 2020 and second rounders or something for us. That's why I said I would do that one haha.

5ass
06-15-2016, 08:00 PM
Sorry if that was confusing but I would not offer/look to trade lavine/5 for butler right now personally. I'm saying if we did I would hope it was with the intention to go after horford (aka them taking salary back on top of it). Butler/horford if guaranteed would be worth that probably to me (for sure by thibs I would think).

I really like lavine and think if thibs can get the defense right we might get a near all star caliber sg with range/defense. I think he is a difference maker.

Dieng is definitely a level or so below that but I really like him as a third big one day if we find a good pf. He probably isn't the difference in a butler deal unless I was just borderline before he was added or something.

Shabazz I don't really like a ton but think he can be a bench spark plug with how he attacks. He would never be the difference for butler.

I don't know if the Bulls would take on Pekovic's contract. Its pretty bad. Whatever happened to the stretch clause though? Did the wolves use it already? Would using that on Pek's contract and dumping payne be enough to free up cap space for horford?

Monta is beast
06-15-2016, 08:05 PM
Without wiggins it would probably have to be lavine+dieng+5th

Stunner
06-15-2016, 08:14 PM
Chicago Bulls aren’t taking Gorgui Dieng/Zach LaVine/#5 Pick in weak draft for Jimmy Butler: (Source: Ben Dowsett) -


https://twitter.com/chicagobullsbot/status/743191479569383425

My fears of stupidity

Monta is beast
06-15-2016, 08:16 PM
Nvrmnd

Shammyguy3
06-15-2016, 08:18 PM
There's no way I'd trade Wiggins for Butler straight up, let alone include a pick.

5 and LaVine or 5 + Shabazz + future picks is more reasonable. Chicago always seems to overvalue their players until it's too late as in the case of Noah and Gibson.

How did we overvalue Noah, and how did it become a case of being too late? That makes no sense. The Bulls were never interested in trading Jo.

Gibson, I agree I wish we would've traded him a couple of years ago when he was still the All-NBA defender.

And Chicago isn't the only team that overvalues players.... how frequent are big trades made in the NBA? Very infrequently. It's not just the Bulls overvaluing, or the rest of the league undervaluing, it's the nature of the business side of the NBA - not many players get traded.

Stunner
06-15-2016, 08:19 PM
Nvrmnd

See this is my fear of our front office , that's a good deal for Jimmy and Dunn would most def be there at 5 and they can get they pg they always wanted . Front office gonna kill us when it's too late to rebuild

hugepatsfan
06-15-2016, 08:31 PM
See this is my fear of our front office , that's a good deal for Jimmy and Dunn would most def be there at 5 and they can get they pg they always wanted . Front office gonna kill us when it's too late to rebuild

BOS could always move #3. If we deal with PHI for a big then they take Dunn. I could also see us trying to work out a deal with SAC for one of their bigs (Koufous or ideally WCS).

Stunner
06-15-2016, 08:35 PM
BOS could always move #3. If we deal with PHI for a big then they take Dunn. I could also see us trying to work out a deal with SAC for one of their bigs (Koufous or ideally WCS).

Obviously I wouldn't want to do the deal if Dunn isn't there

5ass
06-15-2016, 08:39 PM
See this is my fear of our front office , that's a good deal for Jimmy and Dunn would most def be there at 5 and they can get they pg they always wanted . Front office gonna kill us when it's too late to rebuild

Maybe.. or maybe there are better offers out there...

This took me like 10 seconds to come up with so it might not be perfect, but its just a quick example...

Celtics get Favors

Jazz get Jimmy and Gibson

Bulls get #3, Exum, #12, and Burks/Lyles

I dont know if this makes sense for everyone, but it seems ok. If you're high on Exum and/or targeting a prospect that likely won't be available at 5, you might think that's a better package than the Wolves'. Again this is just an example, but my point is I don't think the Wolves' package is clearly too good to pass up.

Stunner
06-15-2016, 08:49 PM
Anybody can come up with a good trade that's not hard to do thing is teams have to accept that said deal and be willing to give all up that up .


Also doubt Boston would give up 3rd for Favors


Also my I'm going off the teams involved in the deal and it would be the typical Bulls thing to do to scoff at a deal like that . My opinion on Lavine is different from others and I think he still a very good potential guard who can be more than what people give him credit for . Jimmy butler isn't worth building around especially with our front office , f it I'm just prepared to roll with the next couple of years of first round exist .


If more teams come forward wanting butler I'll debate what deals but as of not I won't assume on trade with not teams linked to us

Monta is beast
06-15-2016, 09:16 PM
If they could flip dieng into something else that chi finds attractive

beasted86
06-15-2016, 10:12 PM
How did we overvalue Noah, and how did it become a case of being too late? That makes no sense. The Bulls were never interested in trading Jo.

Gibson, I agree I wish we would've traded him a couple of years ago when he was still the All-NBA defender.

And Chicago isn't the only team that overvalues players.... how frequent are big trades made in the NBA? Very infrequently. It's not just the Bulls overvaluing, or the rest of the league undervaluing, it's the nature of the business side of the NBA - not many players get traded.

Woj mentioned the Bulls shopping Noah and Gibson earlier this season. So basically to me, considering the source, that's not a rumor, it's a fact they were shopping him regardless of what the brass pretended in front of the media.

It just seems with Noah and Gibson and dating back to even Deng and Boozer, the Bulls seem to stand pat rather than go in for the deals available when a guy is on the block and they end up folding their hand or getting a minimal return basically too late like they got out of Deng who in essence they will have traded him for a 2nd round pick.

And there are a lot of teams trading starters or for starters. But Chicago seems to play it safe or too late when it comes to trades sometimes.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 10:16 PM
Maybe.. or maybe there are better offers out there...

This took me like 10 seconds to come up with so it might not be perfect, but its just a quick example...

Celtics get Favors

Jazz get Jimmy and Gibson

Bulls get #3, Exum, #12, and Burks/Lyles

I dont know if this makes sense for everyone, but it seems ok. If you're high on Exum and/or targeting a prospect that likely won't be available at 5, you might think that's a better package than the Wolves'. Again this is just an example, but my point is I don't think the Wolves' package is clearly too good to pass up.

Zero chance 3 for Favors

Zero chance Jazz give up all that for Butler and a potential rental

beasted86
06-15-2016, 10:22 PM
Chicago Bulls aren’t taking Gorgui Dieng/Zach LaVine/#5 Pick in weak draft for Jimmy Butler: (Source: Ben Dowsett) -


https://twitter.com/chicagobullsbot/status/743191479569383425

My fears of stupidity

I think that's decent. Not ideal, but tweet has a tone of contempt which speaks of overvalue. If they really insist on a package the caliber of Wiggins + 5 they are high. I hope that's just a smokescreen.

5ass
06-15-2016, 10:23 PM
Anybody can come up with a good trade that's not hard to do thing is teams have to accept that said deal and be willing to give all up that up .


Also doubt Boston would give up 3rd for Favors


Also my I'm going off the teams involved in the deal and it would be the typical Bulls thing to do to scoff at a deal like that . My opinion on Lavine is different from others and I think he still a very good potential guard who can be more than what people give him credit for . Jimmy butler isn't worth building around especially with our front office , f it I'm just prepared to roll with the next couple of years of first round exist .


If more teams come forward wanting butler I'll debate what deals but as of not I won't assume on trade with not teams linked to us

Don't assume the Celtics and wolves are the only teams that'll make an offer is what I'm saying. They might have a good reason for passing on the Wolves' offer.

5ass
06-15-2016, 10:28 PM
Zero chance 3 for Favors

Zero chance Jazz give up all that for Butler and a potential rental

Zero chance they trade the third pick for a third pick young player who is already one of the top PFs in the league? Considering they're aggressively shopping their pick and the Bulls seem to want something like Crowder+3rd+multiple other picks, do you not think they'd maybe like to have Crowder+Favors over just Butler?

Zero chance the Bulls consolidate some assets for a legit star? Butler and Gibson means they don't lose their defensive identity. Butler would be their best player and a nice pairing with Hayward at the wings. It depends how high you are on Exum.

beasted86
06-15-2016, 10:51 PM
Zero chance they trade the third pick for a third pick young player who is already one of the top PFs in the league? Considering they're aggressively shopping their pick and the Bulls seem to want something like Crowder+3rd+multiple other picks, do you not think they'd maybe like to have Crowder+Favors over just Butler?

Zero chance the Bulls consolidate some assets for a legit star? Butler and Gibson means they don't lose their defensive identity. Butler would be their best player and a nice pairing with Hayward at the wings. It depends how high you are on Exum.
Favors has 2 years and then he's unrestricted. Ainge is not that desperate for a good player. I was about to swap "good player" with star, but didn't even feel comfortable calling Favors that. He hasn't led a team to the playoffs and he's not putting any more fans in the seats.

Bulls make out like a bandit. I said no chance Jazz give up all that for Butler and a rental. Favors and 12 would be reasonable for Butler as a standalone, so on the back end you're suggesting expiring Gibson is worth Exum and Burks which is fairly ludicrous.

5ass
06-15-2016, 11:30 PM
Favors has 2 years and then he's unrestricted. Ainge is not that desperate for a good player. I was about to swap "good player" with star, but didn't even feel comfortable calling Favors that. He hasn't led a team to the playoffs and he's not putting any more fans in the seats.

Bulls make out like a bandit. I said no chance Jazz give up all that for Butler and a rental. Favors and 12 would be reasonable for Butler as a standalone, so on the back end you're suggesting expiring Gibson is worth Exum and Burks which is fairly ludicrous.

What do you think all 3rd picks are superstars? Favors is one of the best two way PFs in the NBA, I'd say that's ATLEAST his value. He was drafted third and lived up to his draft position. The Celtics want to win now, and Favors would be a huge upgrade in their front court. He's still young, and if he was in the east, he would probably have made the all star team over Gasol/Bosh since he's better than both. His per game stats aren't eye-popping but he doesn't play heavy minutes and he plays on a slow pace team without a good PG. His PER is almost the same as Blake Griffin's, and he plays defense.

Anthony Davis: 25.2
Griffin: 22.2
Favors: 21.7
Millsap: 21.3


I meant the Jazz consolidate assets. 12th pick isn't that valuable, Exum had an underwhelming rookie year AND is coming off surgery after missing a year. He won't be anything special anytime soon, and his value decreased for sure. Burks is always injured and his minutes will be replaced easily between Hayward, Butler and Hood. The Jazz are trading for a star while holding onto most of their big chips. Gobert, Hayward, Hood are each more/at least as valuable as Exum IMO. All they need is a solid PG.

IKnowHoops
06-15-2016, 11:37 PM
I'm with Hawk on keeping the core over going for Butler here. #5, Shabazz, Dieng would be my best offer and it likely isn't enough. Rubio/Lavine/Wiggins/Dieng/Towns and #5 (assuming guard) is one PF and a little time away, the skills fit together. I say play into the year at least to see what we have, I suspect with an addition or two we are at playoff caliber already. Butler just isn't worth messing with that considering the skill set. The rumor is we offered #5? Obviously would do that but Lavine/Dieng is too much more for me given where we are and the talent we have. When that group started down the stretch we were like .400 or so and that is without growth going into next year, 5th pick, a vet fa (like noah/deng) and of course now Thibs over Mitchell.

Thats what I was OK with, even though I would be just as happy to draft Hield or Dunn, and I'd be even happier to draft Chriss.

IKnowHoops
06-15-2016, 11:42 PM
There's a bit of risk involved here for the Wolves organization too. I get people saying they'd rather stand pat, but how long are MN fans willing to risk continue missing the playoffs for?

I know this is probably the best young core they've ever had, but it seems for the last decade they've been in this position, only to never take that next step. Thibs wants Butler probably pretty bad, and the last thing he probably wants is a roster made up mainly of guys on rookie contracts. If he plays the wait game, Butler is likely gone to someone else, missing his chance for a player that perfectly fits his style. Boston has a better pick to offer, and some quality players to attach to it. If he even wants a chance to acquire Jimmy, he's going to have to pay a premium price.

Seriously? We have put up with much worse teams with no end in sight to the suffering. I'd easily wait 2 more years to make the playoffs if we can draft best player and let our young guys grow.

My guess is that they are an 8th seed next year as is and possibly as high as 5th. If they can take that leap then they are easily on pace to win a ring in 3 years.

MN fans in general have no problem waiting for these players we love to grow.

IKnowHoops
06-15-2016, 11:57 PM
As a non Wolves fan you have to be ready to accept the fact that keeping your entire core together until they are all good is not reasonable. They are all on low level contracts and they become much more expensive as time goes on. Can't be afraid to improve rapidly and give those players strong incentive to stick around. Otherwise you'll end up watching Towns player for the Lakers in a few years.

OKC and Dubs say hi...Spurs do too. No coincidence that the 3 best teams in the NBA did what you said not to. Also not a coincidence your not a Wolves fan.

Shammyguy3
06-15-2016, 11:57 PM
Woj mentioned the Bulls shopping Noah and Gibson earlier this season. So basically to me, considering the source, that's not a rumor, it's a fact they were shopping him regardless of what the brass pretended in front of the media.

It just seems with Noah and Gibson and dating back to even Deng and Boozer, the Bulls seem to stand pat rather than go in for the deals available when a guy is on the block and they end up folding their hand or getting a minimal return basically too late like they got out of Deng who in essence they will have traded him for a 2nd round pick.

And there are a lot of teams trading starters or for starters. But Chicago seems to play it safe or too late when it comes to trades sometimes.

The Bulls shopping Noah after their window was obviously slammed shut is completely different. You do not trade a center on one of the best contracts in the league until you are sure your window is closed. So no, they never overvalued Noah because no team would give up what he was worth to the Bulls in their title aspirations.

Gibson is a great 6th man, since when is overvaluing a bench big something to write home about? And I've already said I wished they traded him earlier in this thread, but it's quite different overvaluing a star player versus a bench player that is more easily replaced.

You must provide deals that would've made the Bulls better had they taken it, otherwise how can you argue they overvalued their players and didn't make a deal that was actually plausible


Also please name teams that "don't" play it safe or stand pat.... Like I said, most teams in the league don't make franchise changing deals. And the teams that do, it generally hasn't worked out for them (Knicks with Melo, Lakers with Dwight, etc)

Please, do not bring up Garnett, Pau, or Kobe either. Because making those first two trades would've put us in a worse position than Minnesota and Memphis repetitively, and the Bulls DID attempt to trade for Kobe involving the young Deng but it was vetoed by Bryant because he wanted to play with Deng (out of their control)

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 12:06 AM
Thibs would be an idiot to include Towns/Wiggins in any deal to acquire Butler.

All the people clamoring about the trade are probably the same ones that called the Cavs idiots for contemplating keeping Wiggins instead of Love, and now they're the same ones bashing the Cavs for trading Wiggins for Love.

Wolves would be good to trade some combination of their young people (Bazz/Lavine/Dieng) along with a 1st for Butler.

Butler + Rubio + Thibs would establish a nasty perimeter defense which would be the foundation to making the playoffs. Then once Towns develop into a superstar and Wiggins an all-star, this team would be able to compete. It may take a few years but you do NOT get rid of Wiggins. In those few years, the team can add more pieces like shooters and defense, and then you worry about maxing out contracts when people like Wiggins and Towns earn them.

Very rarely (I think it has only happened once or twice ever) does a talented player finishing with his rookie contract opt-out and not sign a max extension with his rookie team.

1000000% truth right here. Don't fall for this double sided coin type of hate. Anyone who wants to see MN trade young pieces and a pick for Butler 9/10 doesn't want to see MN succeed.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 12:21 AM
Ha are you really talking about my teams mediocrity? Coming from a TWolves fan, a team that's only made it past the first round once. Our core is just as young with just as high of a ceiling if not higher, and we have already won more.

This being said, any competent basketball fan knows that potential means nothing. Pretty sure at one time Kwame Brown, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, and Greg Oden were all considered loaded with potential. And if you want to say, well our players are already showing their not busts, several people thought the same thing about MCW when he won rookie of the year. Doesn't look so good now.

So why are you not clamoring for your Bucks to trade Giannis, #10 pick for Butler. Thats less than what you want the Wolves to give up.

ChitownbullsBG7
06-16-2016, 12:32 AM
Favors has 2 years and then he's unrestricted. Ainge is not that desperate for a good player. I was about to swap "good player" with star, but didn't even feel comfortable calling Favors that. He hasn't led a team to the playoffs and he's not putting any more fans in the seats.

Bulls make out like a bandit. I said no chance Jazz give up all that for Butler and a rental. Favors and 12 would be reasonable for Butler as a standalone, so on the back end you're suggesting expiring Gibson is worth Exum and Burks which is fairly ludicrous.

Lmao so Butler is Worth the #3. Favors isn't. Favors according to you isn't even a good player, but Favors and #12 is fair for Butler.

That's a new one.

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 07:57 AM
I'd love to see Minny get Butler just because I think it would put them in the playoffs this year but I can't get mad at Wolves fans for just wanting to hang on to Rubio-LaVine-Wiggins-KAT and keep their lottery pick.

People forget that a team with Westbrook - Durant - Jeff Green went 23-59. Then they got Harden in the draft and won 50 games the next season.

theducksmuggler
06-16-2016, 09:21 AM
76ers receive Andrew Wiggins
Bulls receive Jahlil Okafor and the #5 pick
TimberWolves receive Jimmy Butler and #24 pick

What does everything of this 3 team trade involving the Bulls, 76ers, TimberWolves that I personally think everyone would leave the table pretty happy. The 76ers get a young scoring guard the 76ers have coveted greatly and get rid of their problem of to many centers at the same time. The Bulls get a young promising offensive Big man they need after losing Noah/Pau most likely and they get the #5 pick and grab the BPA to match with Okafor and they would still have the #14 pick to work with. The Timberwolves are the only ones that may have an issue giving up Wiggins but it all depends if they really LOVE Butler with Thibs for the next 3 years they may want more from say the 76ers say maybe a Nik Stauskus or the #26 pick. Overall i think this is a pretty interesting trade.

hugepatsfan
06-16-2016, 10:33 AM
What do you think all 3rd picks are superstars? Favors is one of the best two way PFs in the NBA, I'd say that's ATLEAST his value. He was drafted third and lived up to his draft position. The Celtics want to win now, and Favors would be a huge upgrade in their front court. He's still young, and if he was in the east, he would probably have made the all star team over Gasol/Bosh since he's better than both. His per game stats aren't eye-popping but he doesn't play heavy minutes and he plays on a slow pace team without a good PG. His PER is almost the same as Blake Griffin's, and he plays defense.

Anthony Davis: 25.2
Griffin: 22.2
Favors: 21.7
Millsap: 21.3


I meant the Jazz consolidate assets. 12th pick isn't that valuable, Exum had an underwhelming rookie year AND is coming off surgery after missing a year. He won't be anything special anytime soon, and his value decreased for sure. Burks is always injured and his minutes will be replaced easily between Hayward, Butler and Hood. The Jazz are trading for a star while holding onto most of their big chips. Gobert, Hayward, Hood are each more/at least as valuable as Exum IMO. All they need is a solid PG.

BOS wouldn't give up #3 for Favors IMO. Not at this stage. We need a star. We're better off gambling onthe upside of a guy like Jaylen Brown/Marquese Chriss/Bender at #3. Not saying that isn't a crap shoot but at least there's a shot. Favors isn't a build around piece. He is what he is - a VERY GOOD player. Adding another one of those does nothing for us really.

Fast forward to the next couple of drafts and BOS has a championship core and then another BRK pick in the same situation, then a trade like this makes a lot of sense for BOS. But right now it just doesn't. If they're not getting a star back for #3 they need to at least give themselves a chance to take one with it, however small a shot that is.

Overall though I agree with you that it's no a bad trade in a vacuum. It just doesn't make any sense for BOS at this stage considering our need for stars. Unless having another good piece like Favors puts big time FAs over the top on BOS as a destination, which I think we can all agree it wouldn't.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-16-2016, 10:59 AM
Seriously? We have put up with much worse teams with no end in sight to the suffering. I'd easily wait 2 more years to make the playoffs if we can draft best player and let our young guys grow.

My guess is that they are an 8th seed next year as is and possibly as high as 5th. If they can take that leap then they are easily on pace to win a ring in 3 years.

MN fans in general have no problem waiting for these players we love to grow.

Easily. Rings are just so easy to come by. Just ask Hinkie how easy it was for Philly.

beasted86
06-16-2016, 11:25 AM
Lmao so Butler is Worth the #3. Favors isn't. Favors according to you isn't even a good player, but Favors and #12 is fair for Butler.

That's a new one.

Reading is fundamental. Try again. If you still don't comprehend I hear Phonics is a good program.

You're only 1/3 in your assertions.

beasted86
06-16-2016, 11:43 AM
What do you think all 3rd picks are superstars? Favors is one of the best two way PFs in the NBA, I'd say that's ATLEAST his value. He was drafted third and lived up to his draft position. The Celtics want to win now, and Favors would be a huge upgrade in their front court. He's still young, and if he was in the east, he would probably have made the all star team over Gasol/Bosh since he's better than both. His per game stats aren't eye-popping but he doesn't play heavy minutes and he plays on a slow pace team without a good PG. His PER is almost the same as Blake Griffin's, and he plays defense.

Anthony Davis: 25.2
Griffin: 22.2
Favors: 21.7
Millsap: 21.3


I meant the Jazz consolidate assets. 12th pick isn't that valuable, Exum had an underwhelming rookie year AND is coming off surgery after missing a year. He won't be anything special anytime soon, and his value decreased for sure. Burks is always injured and his minutes will be replaced easily between Hayward, Butler and Hood. The Jazz are trading for a star while holding onto most of their big chips. Gobert, Hayward, Hood are each more/at least as valuable as Exum IMO. All they need is a solid PG.
PER? PER says Whiteside is better than almost all those players, and identical to Davis. Favors is a good player but you're over rating him. He hasn't played like an all-star. He's an Al Jefferson caliber player who is very good but not what I'd consider a star. Both will win you some games but cannot carry a team, and no extra fans are coming to the arena to see them.

Burks and Exum are coming off injury seasons, but still have more value than a 31 year old expiring backup caliber PF. Burks contract is a steal under the current market and none of his injuries have been career risk type issues. Exum still has potential and is supposedly their hopes to fill that PG need.

Anyway this is way off topic considering the original theme. Jazz are in no way linked at all to Butler in the media.

mrblisterdundee
06-16-2016, 01:02 PM
he has taken some games over down the stretch, shows to be a good scorer (who will be elite) at some point, and he is a good 1-1 defender. Thibs will make him a much better team defender. Wiggins needs to improve his ball handling, and 3 point shot. He showed flashes of playmaking the 2nd half of last year.

I really have no interest in trading him.

Btw, go check Butler's numbers out in year 2. You wouldn't have thought much of him either...and Butler was already 23 by then. Not 20.

I am not saying Wiggins is as good as Butler. I am saying, he will probably be a version of him, so why trade for a more expensive version of a player you will already have in a couple of years when the Wolves are actually playing games into May?

Again, if it happens, I will support it. Just not my cup of tea personally. And I will fully admit I was wrong if we get Butler, and he/Towns/Wiggins turn into a 3 headed monster.

I think one of the biggest knocks against Andrew Wiggins — and Jimmy Butler, for that matter — is shooting, which makes another case for the Wolves not pursuing Butler. Anyone the Wolves trade for at this point should be an above-average shooter. I think Harrison Barnes would feast on open jumpers in Minnesota.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 01:04 PM
I think one of the biggest knocks against Andrew Wiggins — and Jimmy Butler, for that matter — is shooting, which makes another case for the Wolves not pursuing Butler. Anyone the Wolves trade for at this point should be an above-average shooter. I think Harrison Barnes would feast on open jumpers in Minnesota.

correct. I would like that option more, if the $$ isn't crazy

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 01:20 PM
correct. I would like that option more, if the $$ isn't crazy

I hope the Wolves make zero trades! Let's just draft best available and give the team a year with Thibs, then make a trade half way through the season at the very soonest! Butlers value isn't changing while the value of our young core is going nowhere but up.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 01:23 PM
I hope the Wolves make zero trades! Let's just draft best available and give the team a year with Thibs, then make a trade half way through the season at the very soonest! Butlers value isn't changing while the value of our young core is going nowhere but up.

I mean, what I want is:

draft one of Dunn/Murray with the #5 pick
Sign Noah
Sign Barnes (if he is too much, sign Deng for 2 years)

cook that baby a year and make a run at the playoffs next year

5ass
06-16-2016, 02:16 PM
PER? PER says Whiteside is better than almost all those players, and identical to Davis. Favors is a good player but you're over rating him. He hasn't played like an all-star. He's an Al Jefferson caliber player who is very good but not what I'd consider a star. Both will win you some games but cannot carry a team, and no extra fans are coming to the arena to see them.

Burks and Exum are coming off injury seasons, but still have more value than a 31 year old expiring backup caliber PF. Burks contract is a steal under the current market and none of his injuries have been career risk type issues. Exum still has potential and is supposedly their hopes to fill that PG need.

Anyway this is way off topic considering the original theme. Jazz are in no way linked at all to Butler in the media.

If he was in the east he would've made an all star team. He's better than both Gasol and Bosh. Where did I overrate him?

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 02:33 PM
I think one of the biggest knocks against Andrew Wiggins — and Jimmy Butler, for that matter — is shooting, which makes another case for the Wolves not pursuing Butler. Anyone the Wolves trade for at this point should be an above-average shooter. I think Harrison Barnes would feast on open jumpers in Minnesota.

Wow I didn't even think of that. He'd be perfect for them. 2-way player who can shoot. If your Minny do you pay him $18 million per year though?

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 02:43 PM
Wow I didn't even think of that. He'd be perfect for them. 2-way player who can shoot. If your Minny do you pay him $18 million per year though?

That is steep, but he may very well command it. He is my ideal to chase this summer, if we keep the pick and don't make a trade prior to free agency. Then sign Noah.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 03:36 PM
I look at our young core.
Lavine
Wiggins
KAT
Bazz

Lavine could have Ray Allen Impact
Wiggins could have Tmac Impact
Kat will have KG/Duncan Impact
Bazz will be a great roll player off the bench who seems to dominate teams that are geared to making things difficult for the starters.
The greatest thing about all of them is that all will play there best seasons at the same exact time. Yes I know young teams rarely work, but that's because young teams rarely have young all stars and hall of famers on them. When they do then OKC and GS happen.
I think MN is in that rare situation. And I have so much faith in these young guys, I'd like to go all in. Which means drafting Dunn and trading Rubio for a draft pick that could get me Chriss.
It's about the age of these guys that matters more to me than anything because I am positive that they all become great nba players

5ass
06-16-2016, 04:06 PM
I look at our young core.
Lavine
Wiggins
KAT
Bazz

Lavine could have Ray Allen Impact
Wiggins could have Tmac Impact
Kat will have KG/Duncan Impact
Bazz will be a great roll player off the bench who seems to dominate teams that are geared to making things difficult for the starters.
The greatest thing about all of them is that all will play there best seasons at the same exact time. Yes I know young teams rarely work, but that's because young teams rarely have young all stars and hall of famers on them. When they do then OKC and GS happen.
I think MN is in that rare situation. And I have so much faith in these young guys, I'd like to go all in. Which means drafting Dunn and trading Rubio for a draft pick that could get me Chriss.
It's about the age of these guys that matters more to me than anything because I am positive that they all become great nba players
Lol calm down. Tmac is a top 5 SG in NBA history at his peak. Ray Allen is a HOF, and again a top 5-10 SG in NBA history.

eDush
06-16-2016, 04:15 PM
I look at our young core.
Lavine
Wiggins
KAT
Bazz

Lavine could have Ray Allen Impact
Wiggins could have Tmac Impact
Kat will have KG/Duncan Impact
Bazz will be a great roll player off the bench who seems to dominate teams that are geared to making things difficult for the starters.
The greatest thing about all of them is that all will play there best seasons at the same exact time. Yes I know young teams rarely work, but that's because young teams rarely have young all stars and hall of famers on them. When they do then OKC and GS happen.
I think MN is in that rare situation. And I have so much faith in these young guys, I'd like to go all in. Which means drafting Dunn and trading Rubio for a draft pick that could get me Chriss.
It's about the age of these guys that matters more to me than anything because I am positive that they all become great nba players
Lol calm down. Tmac is a top 5 SG in NBA history at his peak. Ray Allen is a HOF, and again a top 5-10 SG in NBA history.
It's called homer ism which I suffer from with my team as well. We all do which is why it's good to have fans like you that are not impartial to any team aforementioned can bring us back to reality. Lavine could never be a Ray Ray since he has. never shown any range nor any shooter instinct let along a quick release pure shooter that few can mimic Allen, trust me on this :nod:. He's just a dunk specialist and nothing more it seems.

hugepatsfan
06-16-2016, 04:21 PM
That is steep, but he may very well command it. He is my ideal to chase this summer, if we keep the pick and don't make a trade prior to free agency. Then sign Noah.

Doubt he's a realistic target for you guys. If he leaves it's because he wants a bigger offensive role. So he's not going to be sold on the idea of joining a core like Towns/Wiggins who are just better players. He's not going to leave GS to go be a supporting player on a worse team. At least it wouldn't seem like that will happen. You never know though.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 04:30 PM
Doubt he's a realistic target for you guys. If he leaves it's because he wants a bigger offensive role. So he's not going to be sold on the idea of joining a core like Towns/Wiggins who are just better players. He's not going to leave GS to go be a supporting player on a worse team. At least it wouldn't seem like that will happen. You never know though.

I'm a Wolves fan dude. It's more of a pipe dream....we never have been able to land a really good FA. Which is why I get trading for a star. But my opinions have been expressed in this thread already

hugepatsfan
06-16-2016, 04:53 PM
I'm a Wolves fan dude. It's more of a pipe dream....we never have been able to land a really good FA. Which is why I get trading for a star. But my opinions have been expressed in this thread already

I think you guys can make a FA splash. Not a Durant or anything but a good player. I didn't mean it that way. I just meant that Barnes specifically doesn't seem likely IMO due to the specifics of his situation. It wouldn't make sense to leave a great team in GS to go join a building team in MIN and have the same role really as a supporting scorer who plays defense. He'd be behind Wiggins/Towns and probably even Lavine on the offensive end. If he leaves I think he'll go to LA with Luke to be their main guy or come to BOS where he gets to be the top wing scorer on a team already in the playoffs. I just don't think he'll leave GS unless it's a role increase.

hugepatsfan
06-16-2016, 04:55 PM
Hawk, what do you think of a guy like Bazemore? He could start with Wiggins to make Lavine a sparkplug off the bench. He brings a solid all around game on defense and offense. I think he'd be a real nice fit for what you guys are trying to build.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 05:17 PM
Hawk, what do you think of a guy like Bazemore? He could start with Wiggins to make Lavine a sparkplug off the bench. He brings a solid all around game on defense and offense. I think he'd be a real nice fit for what you guys are trying to build.

Yes, I love that idea. I think Lavine would be an excellent 6th man who can finish games when he is playing well.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 05:18 PM
I think you guys can make a FA splash. Not a Durant or anything but a good player. I didn't mean it that way. I just meant that Barnes specifically doesn't seem likely IMO due to the specifics of his situation. It wouldn't make sense to leave a great team in GS to go join a building team in MIN and have the same role really as a supporting scorer who plays defense. He'd be behind Wiggins/Towns and probably even Lavine on the offensive end. If he leaves I think he'll go to LA with Luke to be their main guy or come to BOS where he gets to be the top wing scorer on a team already in the playoffs. I just don't think he'll leave GS unless it's a role increase.

yep, I understand that, which is why I put him on the "would love to have", but not a realistic FA target.

beasted86
06-16-2016, 06:02 PM
If he was in the east he would've made an all star team. He's better than both Gasol and Bosh. Where did I overrate him?
That suggestion alone. What makes you believe being in the East where the defense is notably better makes Favors somehow better? His stats are more or less the same against the East, efficiency slightly lower raw stats are each about .5 higher in points and rebounds, but still in comparison to Bosh and Gasol a few steps behind.

The Jazz are more or less similar record wise around .500 against the East and he wouldn't necessarily win any more all-star votes from the coaches based on team performance either.

Bosh still has better individual stats against the West teams and Miami finished with a much higher winning percentage against the West than the Jazz. Gasol's individual stats actually go up playing against the West, also being better than Favors' on an individual level and the Bulls also had a better record vs the West only than the Jazz.

Your opinion sounds like just what it is, an opinion, and doesn't sound drawn from any facts.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 06:07 PM
It's called homer ism which I suffer from with my team as well. We all do which is why it's good to have fans like you that are not impartial to any team aforementioned can bring us back to reality. Lavine could never be a Ray Ray since he has. never shown any range nor any shooter instinct let along a quick release pure shooter that few can mimic Allen, trust me on this :nod:. He's just a dunk specialist and nothing more it seems.

You are really underestimating Lavine's 3 ball. Since starting last year he took 5 3's a game at 43%. That's better than Klay. He also helped win a game or two with his late game 3pt heroics.

Now I'm not saying he will shoot as good as Ray, although his stats are trending that way. What I am saying is, because he is a good 3 pt shooter and a much more explosive athlete, he could end up having similar level of impact on the game.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2016, 06:11 PM
Yes, I love that idea. I think Lavine would be an excellent 6th man who can finish games when he is playing well.

Lavine is young as bleep. I don't like the idea of relegating him to six man role. I think he's gonna explode this year if given the chance. He could easily be better than Wiggins at the end of the day. 43% 3pt shot with his athletic ability. He's waiting to explode on the NBA.

5ass
06-16-2016, 08:01 PM
That suggestion alone. What makes you believe being in the East where the defense is notably better makes Favors somehow better? His stats are more or less the same against the East, efficiency slightly lower raw stats are each about .5 higher in points and rebounds, but still in comparison to Bosh and Gasol a few steps behind.

The Jazz are more or less similar record wise around .500 against the East and he wouldn't necessarily win any more all-star votes from the coaches based on team performance either.

Bosh still has better individual stats against the West teams and Miami finished with a much higher winning percentage against the West than the Jazz. Gasol's individual stats actually go up playing against the West, also being better than Favors' on an individual level and the Bulls also had a better record vs the West only than the Jazz.

Your opinion sounds like just what it is, an opinion, and doesn't sound drawn from any facts.

Lol at looking at individual stats. I already told you he plays without a PG, shares the court with a good rebounder in Gobert (and non offesnvie player), and he plays on a team with the slowest pace. Per 100 possessions he scores more than Gasol while having a better TS% and ORTG. Defensively he's ahead of both Gasol and Bosh for sure. Your problem is you don't know how to use stats and context.

beasted86
06-16-2016, 08:20 PM
Lol at looking at individual stats. I already told you he plays without a PG, shares the court with a good rebounder in Gobert (and non offesnvie player), and he plays on a team with the slowest pace. Per 100 possessions he scores more than Gasol while having a better TS% and ORTG. Defensively he's ahead of both Gasol and Bosh for sure. Your problem is you don't know how to use stats and context.

Miami played at a slower pace than the Jazz going into the all-star break and Bosh dominates Favors in many categories. Now you're using a "hypothetical" as a crutch suggesting Favors might do better with a better PG, yet playing with Mack (a huge upgrade over Burke and Neto) Favors had slightly weaker individual stats post all-star. Bosh has dominated whether at TJ Ford, Calderon, or Mario Chalmers was his PG. Gasol the same. Your Gobert crutch makes no sense when his stats were relatively the same the months he was injured. Gobert is not stealing any stats from him.

Look, your argument makes no sense and is now way off topic. Favors is a good player, but not a star and I wouldn't take him over either player, and wouldn't pick him as an all-star in either conference.

mrblisterdundee
06-17-2016, 01:20 AM
correct. I would like that option more, if the $$ isn't crazy

Ryan Anderson would rain threes in Minnesota, and I think he'd cost less than Barnes. Minnesota would actually have one of the best shooting front courts in the league.

Hawkeye15
06-17-2016, 10:09 AM
Lavine is young as bleep. I don't like the idea of relegating him to six man role. I think he's gonna explode this year if given the chance. He could easily be better than Wiggins at the end of the day. 43% 3pt shot with his athletic ability. He's waiting to explode on the NBA.

I don't like the idea of giving the keys to kids either. You earn what you get in professional sports.

JOSKOMANG4
06-17-2016, 11:26 AM
3 way trade:

- rubio to mavs

- bulls get g lavine, c pek, f bjelica, 2016 & 2018 2ND RD PICK FROM MAVS, & 5th overall pick FROM WOLVES. Draft murray, g uk, with 5th overall pick.

- wolves get butler & rose.

vxyh
06-17-2016, 11:55 AM
If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/20.gif

5ass
06-17-2016, 10:04 PM
Miami played at a slower pace than the Jazz going into the all-star break and Bosh dominates Favors in many categories. Now you're using a "hypothetical" as a crutch suggesting Favors might do better with a better PG, yet playing with Mack (a huge upgrade over Burke and Neto) Favors had slightly weaker individual stats post all-star. Bosh has dominated whether at TJ Ford, Calderon, or Mario Chalmers was his PG. Gasol the same. Your Gobert crutch makes no sense when his stats were relatively the same the months he was injured. Gobert is not stealing any stats from him.

Look, your argument makes no sense and is now way off topic. Favors is a good player, but not a star and I wouldn't take him over either player, and wouldn't pick him as an all-star in either conference.

Favors isn't the same type of player as Gasol and Bosh. If I have to explain to you why he would benefit more playing with a better PG, then we should just end this argument now. Mack averaged 3 TO to his 5 assists, and was a newcomer to the team. He had no time to get familiar with Favors or the rest of the team.

None of those guys are star players that you build around. Give me Favors over both as a supporting player. Favors was slightly worse after the all star break? You mean when he was battling injuries? Like I said you don't know how to use context. Favors is clearly better than both defensively. Offensively he's close enough where I'd take him over bosh and Gasol. All star or no all star he's at least as good of a player. Considering his age, he's worth the third pick.

2015-okafor
2014-embiid
2013- Otto porter
2012-Beal
2011-Kanter

Stop overrating picks. Especially in a weak draft. Favors is a known quantity.

IKnowHoops
06-18-2016, 09:28 AM
If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/20.gif

There is zero need to do this deal. 5th plus Wiggins would be beyond stupid. Lavine and Wiggins are in the top 1% of athletic ability in NBA history. They continue to get better every year. I want to see one year under Thibs.

Shammyguy3
06-19-2016, 02:17 PM
There is zero need to do this deal. 5th plus Wiggins would be beyond stupid. Lavine and Wiggins are in the top 1% of athletic ability in NBA history. They continue to get better every year. I want to see one year under Thibs.
So was Tyrus Thomas, Gerald Green, etc. athletic ability as in speed and hops have little do with how great of a basketball player is likely to become. Ball handling passing shooting etc are far more important. It's great to be athletic but you need other skills to truly be great (insert Duncan Dirk Bird Stockton West etc etc).

Wiggins will be a good to great number two, Lavine I'm not sure he ever becomes more than a Jamal Crawford type.

beasted86
06-19-2016, 03:12 PM
Stop overrating picks. Especially in a weak draft. Favors is a known quantity.

Your logic is pretty embarrassing bringing up what teams drafted at 3. It's made even more irrelevant since the your trade idea was a package. The package for the 3 teams doesn't work. Celtics have nobody who can create offense on the team other than Thomas and this was clear as day watching them in the playoffs. They are looking at guys like Butler and Love who can do that, not another complimentary scorer like Favors.

If you want to go on believing Favors is a great player based on "hypothetical assertions". In the real world, against the East teams, Favors was not impressive. You seem to be alone in belief he is an all-star.

.........

Getting back to the topic of Jimmy Butler and what trades rumors actually exist in the real world (and not made up by fans), the Celtics have been interested in Butler but have also had interest in Jaylen Brown in the draft and worked him out 2x already and it's possible they could trade down for multiple picks to get him.

I think the Bulls will get the best possible offer from Minnesota. I don't see anyone else offering the high price they want.

Shammyguy3
06-19-2016, 03:27 PM
I don't think MIN offers Wiggins in the package so I don't think they acquire Butler. The Celtics on the other hand have multiple picks and BRKs pick so I think if Butler gets traded it will be to The C's

IKnowHoops
06-19-2016, 03:58 PM
So was Tyrus Thomas, Gerald Green, etc. athletic ability as in speed and hops have little do with how great of a basketball player is likely to become. Ball handling passing shooting etc are far more important. It's great to be athletic but you need other skills to truly be great (insert Duncan Dirk Bird Stockton West etc etc).

Wiggins will be a good to great number two, Lavine I'm not sure he ever becomes more than a Jamal Crawford type.

Tyrus Thomas was not on that level. Gerald Green was. Westbrook,Lebron, Kobe, Rose, Drob, Wade, Jordan, Vince Carter,Tmac, Durant, Wilkins, Dr. J, Blake, Kemp, Iverson, Shaq.

Id say that if you looked at the top 1% of NBA athletes (size, speed, power) combination, that for every 1 who doesn't pan out, 3 are good to great. It means a lot to have 1% athletic ability. Lebron's scoring skills are not that vast. He's a beast and that is why he is unstoppable period.

Shammyguy3
06-19-2016, 04:14 PM
Tyrus Thomas was not on that level. Gerald Green was. Westbrook,Lebron, Kobe, Rose, Drob, Wade, Jordan, Vince Carter,Tmac, Durant, Wilkins, Dr. J, Blake, Kemp, Iverson, Shaq.

Id say that if you looked at the top 1% of NBA athletes (size, speed, power) combination, that for every 1 who doesn't pan out, 3 are good to great. It means a lot to have 1% athletic ability. Lebron's scoring skills are not that vast. He's a beast and that is why he is unstoppable period.

Athletic ability to me is not necessarily size/power. And if it is, no way in hell is Allen Iverson included in that.


Besides that's not the point. Wiggins is not skilled like all of those players outside of maybe Derrick Rose and Allen Iverson. Zach Lavine is nowhere near the prospect that all of those players were. This is a case of getting caught up in the ceiling of a young player. I'm FAR more interested in prospects floors than ceilings. All of those guys on that list, their floors were all-star caliber players. Lavine's is more like, Nate Robinson/Jamal Crawford/JR Smith/etc. Wiggins floor is pretty high.

If I'm the Bulls you have to demand Wiggins in the trade. I understand why MIN wouldn't accept. But Lavine and the 5th pick is meh, the odds of either of them coming close to the level of Jimmy Butler is extremely low (and, Butler isn't a #1 caliber player on a championship team like Durant/Lebron/Curry are). So, that shows you how bad of a deal it would be if all they get is Lavine/#5.

Give me the Boston deal any day (#3, #16, BRK pick, + Bradley/Olynyk/some player combination)

5ass
06-19-2016, 05:00 PM
Your logic is pretty embarrassing bringing up what teams drafted at 3. It's made even more irrelevant since the your trade idea was a package. The package for the 3 teams doesn't work. Celtics have nobody who can create offense on the team other than Thomas and this was clear as day watching them in the playoffs. They are looking at guys like Butler and Love who can do that, not another complimentary scorer like Favors.

If you want to go on believing Favors is a great player based on "hypothetical assertions". In the real world, against the East teams, Favors was not impressive. You seem to be alone in belief he is an all-star.

.........

Getting back to the topic of Jimmy Butler and what trades rumors actually exist in the real world (and not made up by fans), the Celtics have been interested in Butler but have also had interest in Jaylen Brown in the draft and worked him out 2x already and it's possible they could trade down for multiple picks to get him.

I think the Bulls will get the best possible offer from Minnesota. I don't see anyone else offering the high price they want.

Get off your high horse, your argument lacks any form of context to be taken seriously. No one agreed with you either. In fact one Celtics fan said the value wasn't bad for the #3 pick, but you somehow think Favors isn't worth the third pick in a weak draft where players within the 3-7 range are interchangeable (according to most draft experts).

Favors would be one of the best PFs in the east for sure. Gasol and Bosh aren't anything special either at this point in their careers, and none of these guys are #1 options. They're all second or third options on a good offensive team. The Celtics need offense for sure, but they also need to upgrade that front court defense.

eDush
06-22-2016, 09:48 PM
Your logic is pretty embarrassing bringing up what teams drafted at 3. It's made even more irrelevant since the your trade idea was a package. The package for the 3 teams doesn't work. Celtics have nobody who can create offense on the team other than Thomas and this was clear as day watching them in the playoffs. They are looking at guys like Butler and Love who can do that, not another complimentary scorer like Favors.

If you want to go on believing Favors is a great player based on "hypothetical assertions". In the real world, against the East teams, Favors was not impressive. You seem to be alone in belief he is an all-star.

.........

Getting back to the topic of Jimmy Butler and what trades rumors actually exist in the real world (and not made up by fans), the Celtics have been interested in Butler but have also had interest in Jaylen Brown in the draft and worked him out 2x already and it's possible they could trade down for multiple picks to get him.

I think the Bulls will get the best possible offer from Minnesota. I don't see anyone else offering the high price they want.

Get off your high horse, your argument lacks any form of context to be taken seriously. No one agreed with you either. In fact one Celtics fan said the value wasn't bad for the #3 pick, but you somehow think Favors isn't worth the third pick in a weak draft where players within the 3-7 range are interchangeable (according to most draft experts).

Favors would be one of the best PFs in the east for sure. Gasol and Bosh aren't anything special either at this point in their careers, and none of these guys are #1 options. They're all second or third options on a good offensive team. The Celtics need offense for sure, but they also need to upgrade that front court defense.
No no and no on Butler :no:

5ass
06-22-2016, 10:26 PM
No no and no on Butler :no:

I didn't even mention butler in that post, genius.

beasted86
06-22-2016, 11:24 PM
I didn't even mention butler in that post, genius.
LMAO @ an 11 time all-star being nothing too special. Your man crush on Favors is unnerving.

5ass
06-22-2016, 11:29 PM
LMAO @ an 11 time all-star being nothing too special. Your man crush on Favors is unnerving.

At this point in his career, he's not.

Avenged
06-22-2016, 11:31 PM
5th+Rubio+Lavine+Dieng? ehh

If I'm CHI I'd ask for 5th plus Wiggins. Even the 1st or 2nd pick alone wouldn't be enough, CHI is asking for the moon for Butler.

Gotta stop smoking that stuff before you post.... that is just delusional.
Levine has a higher ceiling that Butler by himself.

The rumor has the "pick" as the center piece. If Levine was on the table with the pick alone the Bulls would jump for joy and do it immediately. Not happening.

I actually want what you're smoking instead. Seems stronger.

Shammyguy3
06-23-2016, 12:02 AM
LMAO @ an 11 time all-star being nothing too special. Your man crush on Favors is unnerving.

Derrick Rose is an MVP, how's that helping him right now?

He clearly said "at this point in their careers."

And he's right

beasted86
06-23-2016, 12:10 AM
Derrick Rose is an MVP, how's that helping him right now?

He clearly said "at this point in their careers."

And he's right
Derrick Rose is an MVP of which season? Also remind me which season just ended.

Derrick Rose "was" an MVP. Chris Bosh "is" an all-star. See the difference?

You can argue other factors including age, health, and contract size... I can maybe buy one of those. But if you folks actually believe Favors is more talented/skilled/impactful than Bosh at any point you've got to be on some seriously heavy drugs or just that dumb. Sorry, can't think of any other PC way of saying that.

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IKnowHoops
06-23-2016, 12:19 AM
I don't like the idea of giving the keys to kids either. You earn what you get in professional sports.

Well if you want the kids to grow, you have to let "give them the keys" and let them take there lumps. If you want the kids to either grow dumb slow, not grow, or regress then by all means make them come off the bench.

Perfect example is Lavine. Played OK on the bench, played very good with elite efficiency when he became a starter. Now your talking about rewarding that with the bench?

The thing is, you have to be able to look evaluate the talent before you draft it. Unless you drafted a player to come off the bench, you shouldn't put him on the bench (In the wolves position when your objective is to maximize the growth and potential of your young core so that in four years you are competing for a championship.

More important to get your young players to there best 2 years from now, than it is to win a game tomorrow.

"Meanwhile, somethin' I gotta show you an I hope you can take it
Gonna leave you in the desert, an I hope that you make it
Gotta put you on your a-- to see what it does to you
When you stand up an see that I'm just showin' love to you"
-DMX

And its true, you want your kid to be tough, you can't protect him from the world. You gotta let him go earn his lumps.

The same with an NBA player. When you bench him, you are cutting off his playing time against starting players and keeping him from growing and possibly ruining a player that would of otherwise turned into a star if he had only been able to fail in games for the beginning of his NBA career. Amazing how many people gave up on Chauncy Billups. It took him a little longer but he figured it out and balled out.

I have know doubt that all Wiggins and Lavine need to do is figure it out. When you have all the talent and ability like those two, you just need to log hours and figure it out. You can't beat a Rubix Cube if you only get 15 seconds with it at a time once every 24-48 hours.

IKnowHoops
06-23-2016, 12:30 AM
Athletic ability to me is not necessarily size/power. And if it is, no way in hell is Allen Iverson included in that.


Besides that's not the point. Wiggins is not skilled like all of those players outside of maybe Derrick Rose and Allen Iverson. Zach Lavine is nowhere near the prospect that all of those players were. This is a case of getting caught up in the ceiling of a young player. I'm FAR more interested in prospects floors than ceilings. All of those guys on that list, their floors were all-star caliber players. Lavine's is more like, Nate Robinson/Jamal Crawford/JR Smith/etc. Wiggins floor is pretty high.

If I'm the Bulls you have to demand Wiggins in the trade. I understand why MIN wouldn't accept. But Lavine and the 5th pick is meh, the odds of either of them coming close to the level of Jimmy Butler is extremely low (and, Butler isn't a #1 caliber player on a championship team like Durant/Lebron/Curry are). So, that shows you how bad of a deal it would be if all they get is Lavine/#5.

Give me the Boston deal any day (#3, #16, BRK pick, + Bradley/Olynyk/some player combination)

Huh? What? Yes Its a combination of size, speed, and power which when a player puts all that together, how good is the player physically, and physically how well does he get it done with his combination of size, speed, and power.

Shaq's combination of size speed and power gave him the ability to dominate people using his physical attributes

Iverson's combination of size speed and power gave him the ability to dominate people using his physical attributes

See how that works?

Iverson is a great Athlete. Shaq is a great athlete. Iverson isn't that strong, Shaq isn't that quick, but the combination of attributes that they do have make them both ridiculous athletes.

IKnowHoops
06-23-2016, 01:08 AM
Athletic ability to me is not necessarily size/power. And if it is, no way in hell is Allen Iverson included in that.


Besides that's not the point. Wiggins is not skilled like all of those players outside of maybe Derrick Rose and Allen Iverson. Zach Lavine is nowhere near the prospect that all of those players were. This is a case of getting caught up in the ceiling of a young player. I'm FAR more interested in prospects floors than ceilings. All of those guys on that list, their floors were all-star caliber players. Lavine's is more like, Nate Robinson/Jamal Crawford/JR Smith/etc. Wiggins floor is pretty high.

If I'm the Bulls you have to demand Wiggins in the trade. I understand why MIN wouldn't accept. But Lavine and the 5th pick is meh, the odds of either of them coming close to the level of Jimmy Butler is extremely low (and, Butler isn't a #1 caliber player on a championship team like Durant/Lebron/Curry are). So, that shows you how bad of a deal it would be if all they get is Lavine/#5.

Give me the Boston deal any day (#3, #16, BRK pick, + Bradley/Olynyk/some player combination)

LOLOLOL. Think about what you just said in that first sentence. You are saying Wiggins has the same amount of skill as Drose and Iverson. And athletically he is 6-8 inches taller and jumps higher. If he doesn't get injured and doesn't play beyond selfish basketball, he's going to be a for sure hall of famer. (by what your saying) And even with those two things haunting Iverson and Rose, both were MVP's. What's wrong with Wiggins turning into a prime version of Allen Iverson or Derrick Rose?

And then secondly your talking about Lavine not being the prospect that those other guys are. If Kobe and Tracy would of been such huge prospects, they would of gone in the top 3, not after the top 10. Think about that.

More-Than-Most
06-23-2016, 01:49 AM
Derrick Rose is an MVP of which season? Also remind me which season just ended.

Derrick Rose "was" an MVP. Chris Bosh "is" an all-star. See the difference?

You can argue other factors including age, health, and contract size... I can maybe buy one of those. But if you folks actually believe Favors is more talented/skilled/impactful than Bosh at any point you've got to be on some seriously heavy drugs or just that dumb. Sorry, can't think of any other PC way of saying that.

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No you should buy all 3 of them because all 3 matter.... Age and health are massive and so is the contract size.... On top of that favors makes less than half of what Bosh makes per season and is a better defender and at this point while grabbing more rebounds/shooting a high FG Pct and doesnt have the question mark of blood clots.

Favors is signed down till 2018 where he is only an URF at that point so he will be retained again all while making 10 million this year compared to boshes 24 million this year 26 million next year and 28 million the year after.... Its not even close at this point... Favors is almost as good while being 8 years younger more than half way cheaper with no fear of on going health issues.

LOb0
06-23-2016, 02:42 AM
Can't fathom why they would take this offer when Boston can give them a much better one with the 3rd pick.

beasted86
06-23-2016, 05:57 AM
No you should buy all 3 of them because all 3 matter.... Age and health are massive and so is the contract size.... On top of that favors makes less than half of what Bosh makes per season and is a better defender and at this point while grabbing more rebounds/shooting a high FG Pct and doesnt have the question mark of blood clots.

Favors is signed down till 2018 where he is only an URF at that point so he will be retained again all while making 10 million this year compared to boshes 24 million this year 26 million next year and 28 million the year after.... Its not even close at this point... Favors is almost as good while being 8 years younger more than half way cheaper with no fear of on going health issues.
Except value was never being discussed. Talent was.

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