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View Full Version : Is trading Kyrie the answer?



JasonJohnHorn
06-11-2016, 11:30 AM
A lot of people have been critical of Love, suggesting that he should come of the bench or be traded. I'm not opposed to that idea, but I think the Cavs are going to have a hard time getting equal value for him.

My view is that the issue is more with Kyrie. We have seen with the Spurs and the Warriors, that a great passing team is a successful, especially if they have good shooters. Kevin Love, being a stretch four who can rebound AND pass, is a VALUABLE piece. If he were on the Warrior or the Spurs, he'd be looking like a stud right now.


Kyrie, though, is not an efficient scorer. He's great a creating for himself, he's quick, and in spots, be can be a solid defender (I've seen him force Curry into some tough shots). But he doesn't facilitate the way truly great point guards do.

Steven Nash and Jason Kidd would have, of course, been ideal for the Cavs, but their careers are well over. Chris Paul, though, would be a great fit. A Kyrie/Paul trade may be unlikely, but Chris Paul is a better defender, a better playmaker, and a better 3-pt shooter, which are all things the Cavs need desperately.

While CP3 may not be realistic, Mike Conley (via sign and trade) could be, and he is also a better defender, better playmaker, and better 3-pt shooter.


If one were to argue that Kyrie was better than Conley, I'd be fine, but Conley would be a better fit for the Cavs. And I think having a guy like Conley or CP3 would get Love more involved.



Thoughts? Should Kyrie be the one on the go? Or Love?

FOXHOUND
06-11-2016, 11:39 AM
This is the same Kyrie who has averaged 32 PTS, 6 ASTS, 4 REBS, 2 STLS and just 1.5 TO on a .491/.385/.875 line in games 3 and 4? I would say no, he is very far from the problem for Cleveland. They won't get equal value for Love but since he's a glorified role player for them anyways they can get a net positive by trading him for 2 to 3 good role players that will help balance the roster.

Scoots
06-11-2016, 11:55 AM
It depends what they get

bucketss
06-11-2016, 11:58 AM
24 yr old pg not even in his prime yet. cavs would be dumb to trade him

Pfeifer
06-11-2016, 12:04 PM
Hes been the only one who can create.

D-Leethal
06-11-2016, 12:12 PM
I think the LeBron-Kyrie dynamic is good enough to get it done but they need a better 2-way support team around those 2. The roster is talented as hell but discombobulated and lacks fit, balance and variety.

Stunner
06-11-2016, 12:14 PM
Yes trade Kyrie , Mike Conley would be a better fit with Bron .


Similar to Harden him and Bron need a PG that can play solid defense and shoot the open 3 . Kyrie does way too much dancing and his defense is horrible . Not to mention he has a lengthy injury history for somebody young .


Tbh Love prob needs to go too , Kyrie and Love just aren't a nice fit with Bron to win a ship . The big three in Miami was special because they were all two way players .

D-Leethal
06-11-2016, 12:17 PM
They really just need to tweak the roster to match up against the Warriors. I think they would have beaten OKC and I think SAS would be a toss up. Love actually works in their favor against SAS IMO. They need to find their version of Westbrook-Waiters-Roberson-Durant-Ibaka that can matchup favorably against the death lineup of GSW. I

They need to replace JR and Shump as starting/backup wings that can play the 2-3 in small ball lineups (Shump and JR are horrible) - they need efficient, low usage, smart 2 way guys there. I think LeBron and TT at the 4-5 match up well with them.

mrblisterdundee
06-11-2016, 12:26 PM
This reminded me of the piece on LeBron James wanting to play together with Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/03/report_lebron_james_would_take.html) all together before any of them retire.
Last month, I created a mega-trade to make that happen, predicated on James and Wade taking significant pay cuts in free agency to play together in Cleveland and probably on Cleveland losing to Golden State in the Finals.
To make it happen, I would have Cleveland trade Kyrie Irving to the Clippers for Chris Paul, and Kevin Love, Iman Shumpert and Tristan Thompson to the Knicks for Carmelo Anthony and Robin Lopez.

Chronz
06-11-2016, 12:29 PM
The only guy you trade is the guy who's playing the same position as ur best player and you already have most of your cap invested in.

They have like 5 pfs on that team.

Kyrie will grow into his role, he's shown me enough to believe in him but he's got to show up on the road and stop letting his iso game determine his defensive effort. Dude can be a straight up sieve

ewing
06-11-2016, 12:40 PM
the answer is there star not being a totally ***** and knocking down a 17 foot shot when its offered.

LA_Raiders
06-11-2016, 12:43 PM
No, he is a hell of a player. They need to let him play the point and have LeBron play forward. LeBron needs to stop being the coach, GM and Pg of the team. Love needs to go, he doesn't fit, and he is wasting his career next to LeBron.

kobe4thewinbang
06-11-2016, 12:45 PM
Love got flagrantly fouled to no call so far as I know, so he's all out of wack. 11 points won't cut it against this stacked GSW team. Yeah, Irving and LeBron had good scoring numbers, but they really need another dude, preferably a big that can produce more often. No offense to Love cuz he's hurt, but Thompson is only good for offensive rebounds/putback points. They got nobody else but shooters that are streaky (JR Smith).

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 12:50 PM
They really just need to tweak the roster to match up against the Warriors. I think they would have beaten OKC and I think SAS would be a toss up. Love actually works in their favor against SAS IMO. They need to find their version of Westbrook-Waiters-Roberson-Durant-Ibaka that can matchup favorably against the death lineup of GSW. I

They need to replace JR and Shump as starting/backup wings that can play the 2-3 in small ball lineups (Shump and JR are horrible) - they need efficient, low usage, smart 2 way guys there. I think LeBron and TT at the 4-5 match up well with them.

I agree with the bold, I said the same thing before Warriors won last series. I thought Cavs matched up well vs. OKC but poorly vs. GS. I kind of think the best way to find that fit might be to trade Love into a big man and a wing. Ibaka+Crowder comes to mind as a great duo who add defense+spacing for them but that seems impossible to get atm.

Mell413
06-11-2016, 12:50 PM
I wouldn't trade Kyrie. He can create his own shot. His defense isn't great, but I don't think that's a huge detriment as a PG. I'd trade Love before Kyrie. He's probably the best guy to trade to get guys that balance out the roster.

MagicBucsSox
06-11-2016, 12:53 PM
24 yr old pg not even in his prime yet. cavs would be dumb to trade him

They traded Love for Wiggins when they couldve gotten more

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 01:02 PM
They traded Love for Wiggins when they couldve gotten more

Best trade ever!

spreadeagle
06-11-2016, 01:06 PM
A lot of people have been critical of Love, suggesting that he should come of the bench or be traded. I'm not opposed to that idea, but I think the Cavs are going to have a hard time getting equal value for him.

My view is that the issue is more with Kyrie. We have seen with the Spurs and the Warriors, that a great passing team is a successful, especially if they have good shooters. Kevin Love, being a stretch four who can rebound AND pass, is a VALUABLE piece. If he were on the Warrior or the Spurs, he'd be looking like a stud right now.


Kyrie, though, is not an efficient scorer. He's great a creating for himself, he's quick, and in spots, be can be a solid defender (I've seen him force Curry into some tough shots). But he doesn't facilitate the way truly great point guards do.

Steven Nash and Jason Kidd would have, of course, been ideal for the Cavs, but their careers are well over. Chris Paul, though, would be a great fit. A Kyrie/Paul trade may be unlikely, but Chris Paul is a better defender, a better playmaker, and a better 3-pt shooter, which are all things the Cavs need desperately.

While CP3 may not be realistic, Mike Conley (via sign and trade) could be, and he is also a better defender, better playmaker, and better 3-pt shooter.


If one were to argue that Kyrie was better than Conley, I'd be fine, but Conley would be a better fit for the Cavs. And I think having a guy like Conley or CP3 would get Love more involved.



Thoughts? Should Kyrie be the one on the go? Or Love?

For some reason this disturbs me haha

D-Leethal
06-11-2016, 01:13 PM
I agree with the bold, I said the same thing before Warriors won last series. I thought Cavs matched up well vs. OKC but poorly vs. GS. I kind of think the best way to find that fit might be to trade Love into a big man and a wing. Ibaka+Crowder comes to mind as a great duo who add defense+spacing for them but that seems impossible to get atm.

If Durant leaves would OKC make a trade around Ibaka for Love to keep Westbrook around long term (Love and Westbrook UCLA connection)? Interesting scenario...

Westbrook-Waiters-Roberson-Love-Adams is not far from being a very good team. Upgrade the 2 spot and that team makes some noise.

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 01:16 PM
If Durant leaves would OKC make a trade around Ibaka for Love to keep Westbrook around long term (Love and Westbrook UCLA connection)? Interesting scenario...

Westbrook-Waiters-Roberson-Love-Adams is not far from being a very good team. Upgrade the 2 spot and that team makes some noise.

That was my thinking in mentioning him but I couldn't pull a good wing from that roster. My idea was Ibaka+Kanter for Love with Kanter going to another team and bringing in a wing for Cleveland. I am not 100% sure but when Love was with us there had been rumors about him and Westy being friends I think.

Cracka2HI!
06-11-2016, 01:28 PM
I've heard LeBron doesn't like playing with Kyrie. If that's the case he could easily be traded. I'm sure they'd love to have CP3 but I don't see that happening. I LOL'd hard the the thought I read where the Clippers would trade Blake and CP3 for Kyrie and Love. The value there isn't very close but that's what makes internet GM's so much fun ;) It's too bad the Cavs don't have young assets to add. I can see these teams swapping stars in either CP3 for Kyrie or Blake for Love but Cleveland would need to add something pretty significant in either case to get it done. They don't have that piece.

D-Leethal
06-11-2016, 01:30 PM
That was my thinking in mentioning him but I couldn't pull a good wing from that roster. My idea was Ibaka+Kanter for Love with Kanter going to another team and bringing in a wing for Cleveland. I am not 100% sure but when Love was with us there had been rumors about him and Westy being friends I think.

They played college hoops together and went to the championship game with UCLA. I'm sure they have a connection on and off the floor.

Scoots
06-11-2016, 01:47 PM
If I'm the Clippers I'd trade CP3 for Kyrie and a future pick, and you've got to believe LeBron would jump at that.

Wade n Fade
06-11-2016, 01:48 PM
Yes. Irving is a terrible defender and not a great fit to what Cleveland needs to do to win a title. CP3 would be a good fit in Cleveland. Maybe CP3/Rivers/Johnson/Picks for Irving and fillers?

da ThRONe
06-11-2016, 01:53 PM
No a trade isn't necessary, but the ball has to be in Lebron hands more. Love is still the odd man out here.

lavell12
06-11-2016, 01:59 PM
Signing Thompson to that huge contract was a giant mistake. I know LeBron wanted him b/c but he isn't worth nearly that much and they could be an impact player for that much $$.

Chronz
06-11-2016, 02:00 PM
I've heard LeBron doesn't like playing with Kyrie. If that's the case he could easily be traded. I'm sure they'd love to have CP3 but I don't see that happening. I LOL'd hard the the thought I read where the Clippers would trade Blake and CP3 for Kyrie and Love. The value there isn't very close but that's what makes internet GM's so much fun ;) It's too bad the Cavs don't have young assets to add. I can see these teams swapping stars in either CP3 for Kyrie or Blake for Love but Cleveland would need to add something pretty significant in either case to get it done. They don't have that piece.
Its crazy how i used to be all for a swap of either stars but i now want no part of Love. Maybe I'll change my mind, Blake isn't a much better defender but he at least has the talent to potentially be a good defender

da ThRONe
06-11-2016, 02:03 PM
Yes. Irving is a terrible defender and not a great fit to what Cleveland needs to do to win a title. CP3 would be a good fit in Cleveland. Maybe CP3/Rivers/Johnson/Picks for Irving and fillers?

To me Paul/Griffin has always made more sense than Irving/Love so much so I have no idea why the Clippers would make the deal.

da ThRONe
06-11-2016, 02:05 PM
If Durant leaves would OKC make a trade around Ibaka for Love to keep Westbrook around long term (Love and Westbrook UCLA connection)? Interesting scenario...

Westbrook-Waiters-Roberson-Love-Adams is not far from being a very good team. Upgrade the 2 spot and that team makes some noise.

Ibaka is a better player than Love. OKC would be foolish to do this trade.

Stunner
06-11-2016, 02:19 PM
Ibaka hasn't been Ibaka for years lol def isn't a better number 2 or if called number 1 option than Kevin love .


Love isn't used a lot in the paint like he wasn't in Minny . A team like Chicago or Boston K Love could be his old self more .

numba1CHANGsta
06-11-2016, 02:27 PM
Trade him for an old fragile CP3 and trade Love for a bag of peanuts.

kobe4thewinbang
06-11-2016, 02:50 PM
Maybe Mike Conley?

JasonJohnHorn
06-11-2016, 08:40 PM
This is the same Kyrie who has averaged 32 PTS, 6 ASTS, 4 REBS, 2 STLS and just 1.5 TO on a .491/.385/.875 line in games 3 and 4? I would say no, he is very far from the problem for Cleveland. They won't get equal value for Love but since he's a glorified role player for them anyways they can get a net positive by trading him for 2 to 3 good role players that will help balance the roster.

That's a two game stretch. That isn't much to go by. Besides, I didn't say he wasn't good, I'm arguing that he's not a good fit.

He had two goo 3pt shooting games. That's not how he typically plays.

More-Than-Most
06-11-2016, 09:06 PM
There is 3 simple ways of fixing the cavs....

Lebron needs to spend all off season working on his jump shot... If he wants to lose weight like he has he needs to work on the bad parts of his game because its clear he cant bully people as much anymore....

Kyrie needs to work on his defense.... Literally spend the entire off season working on his defense.... James could help him massively with this like a leader should instead of going to movie premiers or being in commercials.

Trade Kevin Love for Depth... You dont need a big 3.... You need depth and 2 way players period.


If these things cant happen you trade both love and kyrie... Trade love for anything and trade Kyrie to the sixers for Okafor : )

Sadds The Gr8
06-11-2016, 10:11 PM
There is 3 simple ways of fixing the cavs....

Lebron needs to spend all off season working on his jump shot... If he wants to lose weight like he has he needs to work on the bad parts of his game because its clear he cant bully people as much anymore....

Kyrie needs to work on his defense.... Literally spend the entire off season working on his defense.... James could help him massively with this like a leader should instead of going to movie premiers or being in commercials.

Trade Kevin Love for Depth... You dont need a big 3.... You need depth and 2 way players period.


If these things cant happen you trade both love and kyrie... Trade love for anything and trade Kyrie to the sixers for Okafor : )
This. You don't need 3 scorers that all need the ball to be effective. All of them are way worse without the ball. 2 star scorers is enough, fill the rest of the squad with versatile players

Meth
06-12-2016, 01:05 AM
Anyone still think a Kyrie for CP3 swap makes sense?

Wade n Fade
06-12-2016, 02:40 AM
To me Paul/Griffin has always made more sense than Irving/Love so much so I have no idea why the Clippers would make the deal.

I wouldn't touch Love in a trade. I would just swap PGs. Kyrie Irving has many years ahead of him vs good ole CP3 being closer to being out of his prime.

Quinnsanity
06-12-2016, 04:07 AM
It is the answer, but it won't happen. He and Love are both roughly equally bad on defense (Irving's worse, but Love is a big and that's more important). But he mucks up the offense so much with his isolations. You cannot win with that guy. He's Iverson reincarnated, but worse. Look at how well Love played when he wasn't around. Just surround Love and LeBron with 3-and-D guys, that's the formula. To anyone who argues otherwise, look at how much better they play with Delly on the floor. They have a +10 net rating with Delly and a +5.5 with Kyrie. The dude is the ultimate good stats bad team guy, he just wound up on a good team.

Believe me I'd argue more, but I'm drunk and it's late. The dude is a ****ing tumor on winning basketball, and if they don't get chemo now that cancer is going to kill their chances of winning a title.

Quinnsanity
06-12-2016, 04:09 AM
I defy anyone in this thread to prove to me that you can win a title with a point guard who iso's as much as Kyrie does. It has NEVER happened.

Tony_Starks
06-12-2016, 04:35 AM
I defy anyone in this thread to prove to me that you can win a title with a point guard who iso's as much as Kyrie does. It has NEVER happened.

Zeek says hi...

Heediot
06-12-2016, 07:02 AM
Whether it's ISO ball or a motion/ball movement offense, both styles can win a title. It's all about execution in the clutch and 4th quarter, that what has separates GS from Cleveland and OKC, and to a smaller extent separated OKC from the Spurs. Almost everyone ISO's at the end of a tight game anyway.

It's good to have a mix of both styles. GS and Curry knows when to iso, that's the difference between GS and OKC/Cleveland. In blowouts, teams tend to move the ball more no matter what style you play. GS blows teams out so much that their ball movement offense seems so predominant (But the foundation of their offense is predicated on Ball movement). When Cleveland starts blowing out teams it appears that they are a ball movement team, but when the team is struggling with their shot or when the game is tighter they iso a whole lot more. The appearance of them being like GS vs. the raptors was an illusion as they had like 3 or 4 blowout games. Even when OKC was beating the Spurs and Warriors in some games handily, it looked appeared that they were moving the ball well. But like Cleveland when things get mucky these guys start isoing like crazy. Even the Spurs, who were a crazy ball movement team two years ago, do not look like the same well oiled machine as their offense took a dip this year as they mixed it up more with their offense this year.

I think OKC could of beat GS with their style of play, they outplayed GS that series, GS just beat them when it mattered most in clutch situations and a lot of 4th quarters. Cleveland has had very good quarters stopping GS's vaunted offense as well, but they seem to be crumbling when it matters most also. The Ball movement offense isn't invincible or like some make it appear to be or we would of seen ATL make it to the finals the last two years.

In the end, I prefer ball movement offense as it gets everyone engaged and people play better psychologically when they feel they get involved on both ends of the floor. But you also needs closers and shot makers to win a title and a guy that can take over when needed also helps.

Edit to add: I think when you iso at the end of games, I prefer the styles of Wade, Jordan, LBJ , and Curry. These guys attack but know when to give it up to for a better shot. Guys like KD, Westy and Kobe rely too much on hero ball. Sometimes it can works, sometimes it doesn't but they should be more open minded and trusting.

As for Love, I rather keep Irving. The last games 4th Q Irving was forcing the issue and didn't make the big shots when the Cavs needed him to, but you could see that Kyrie he was putting a lot of pressure on GS's defense. He is just a better fit next to LeBron IMO, both guys could work but the Kyrie and LeBron combo seems more cohesive to me. Also PG defense is not as vital as a big's defense on the pick n roll, rim protection, and banging down low.

ewing
06-12-2016, 07:41 AM
That's a two game stretch. That isn't much to go by. Besides, I didn't say he wasn't good, I'm arguing that he's not a good fit.

He had two goo 3pt shooting games. That's not how he typically plays.

he is a very good fit. He is a an elite scoring PG that lets James handle the ball all the time and pretend he is Magic. Bring in a play making point guard and he is effected the way K Love is.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2016, 08:53 AM
That's a two game stretch. That isn't much to go by. Besides, I didn't say he wasn't good, I'm arguing that he's not a good fit.

He had two goo 3pt shooting games. That's not how he typically plays.

Two games = 50% of the Finals, and he had 26 points in game one thanks to his ability to get to the line. I would argue that he is a good fit, since LeBron is a ball dominant de facto PG on every team he's played on. Having an elite scoring guard like Wade/Irving to partner up with him is a good match. What's proven to be a bad match with LeBron is having a post big, since both Bosh and Love have been turned into glorified floor spacing Donyell Marshall's playing with him.

Are you suggesting that Kyrie Irving, he of the career .378 on 4.7 3PTA in the regular season and .434 on 5.1 3PTA in the post season, isn't one of the best 3 point shooters in the league?

FOXHOUND
06-12-2016, 08:55 AM
he is a very good fit. He is a an elite scoring PG that lets James handle the ball all the time and pretend he is Magic. Bring in a play making point guard and he is effected the way K Love is.

You got in before I did. :laugh2: :cheers:

Scoots
06-12-2016, 11:31 AM
Zeek says hi...

Until last year his team was the answer to "Has a scoring PG ever lead a team to a title" too. Nobody is even asking Irving to lead anything.

ewing
06-12-2016, 11:38 AM
Until last year his team was the answer to "Has a scoring PG ever lead a team to a title" too. Nobody is even asking Irving to lead anything.


Plus when you score or if your beat your man forcing the defense to collapse and then pass to an open teammate its not an isolation play according to PSD. Only when you make a bad decision or are forced into a difficult shot by good D is it an isolation

TheNumber37
06-12-2016, 11:48 AM
Eric Bledsoe and Devin Booker. Suns wouldn't do it, though

FOXHOUND
06-12-2016, 11:49 AM
Until last year his team was the answer to "Has a scoring PG ever lead a team to a title" too. Nobody is even asking Irving to lead anything.

Add in the fact that PG's in general haven't been very important in championships for the past 25-years since Zeke to begin with. BJ Armstrong? Kenny Smith? Ron Harper? Avery Johnson? Derek Fisher? 2003 Parker? Jason Williams? 2008 Rondo? 2011 Kidd? Mario Chalmers?

That's 20 of the 25 championship teams that had a straight up role player starting at PG. The only ones who did a whole lot, really, were Billups in 04, Parker in 07/14 and Curry in 15. Some people think Phil Jackson is crazy, but honestly when looking at the facts he's been dead on when talking about there being no need for a big time PG. Stars win championships and stars have the ball in their hands so a floor general PG is irrelevant on that level in most cases.

Tony_Starks
06-12-2016, 11:54 AM
No.

IndyRealist
06-12-2016, 12:06 PM
Plus when you score or if your beat your man forcing the defense to collapse and then pass to an open teammate its not an isolation play according to PSD. Only when you are make a bad decision or are forced into a difficult shot by good D is it an isolation
A lot of pick n' roll gets called iso as well, because you get the switch you want and then your roll man moves to pull the good defender away, leaving a subpar guy iso'd against your ballhandler.

Scoots
06-12-2016, 01:26 PM
A lot of pick n' roll gets called iso as well, because you get the switch you want and then your roll man moves to pull the good defender away, leaving a subpar guy iso'd against your ballhandler.
Too true.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2016, 01:39 PM
He's not a good fit beside Lebron, that much is clear. But the guy you'll get for him isn't going to bring the Cavs to a title against the Warriors.

ewing
06-12-2016, 01:56 PM
He's not a good fit beside Lebron, that much is clear. But the guy you'll get for him isn't going to bring the Cavs to a title against the Warriors.

why isn't he a good fit? You want an elite shooter and he is that. you want a guy won't be limited by Bron playing defacto PG and you have that. i would think you want someone on the team that can beat someone off the dribble and be a go to player when you are not playing through Bron and you have that. You want a scorer next to Bron that doesn't play in Bron's spots like Love does and you have that. I can see people not being in love with Irving as a defender (funny that it comes out when the Cavs have done such a good job on an historically good back court in the NBA finals) but that is really it. I think Bron's playing ability covers for Irvings limitations and Irvings shooting and one on one ability cover for Bron

ewing
06-12-2016, 01:59 PM
A lot of pick n' roll gets called iso as well, because you get the switch you want and then your roll man moves to pull the good defender away, leaving a subpar guy iso'd against your ballhandler.


last game half this board was killing the Cavs for playing iso ball while calling from them to clear a side and give it to Bron on the post.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2016, 02:08 PM
why isn't he a good fit? You want an elite shooter and he is that. you want a guy won't be limited by Bron playing defacto PG and you have that. i would think you want someone on the team that can beat someone off the dribble and be a go to player when you are not playing through Bron and you have that. You want a scorer next to Bron that doesn't play in Bron's spots like Love does and you have that. I can see people not being in love with Irving as a defender (funny that it comes out when the Cavs have done such a good job on an historically good back court in the NBA finals) but that is really it. I think Bron's playing ability covers for Irvings limitations and Irvings shooting and one on one ability cover for Bron

Sure he's a great shooter but it's kinda obvious he doesn't fit well. He doesn't know how to play off the ball and he's too selfish. I'm watching 5-6 seconds go off the shot clock because he wants to dribble around. Sure they can be very effective because they are just that good, but a PG that starts beside Lebron shouldn't be a guy who's a shoot-first player. A guy who scores 14-17 PPG but plays off the ball better (and looks to pass when he has the ball) would be better fit beside Lebron offensively

ewing
06-12-2016, 02:14 PM
Sure he's a great shooter but it's kinda obvious he doesn't fit well. He doesn't know how to play off the ball and he's too selfish. I'm watching 5-6 seconds go off the shot clock because he wants to dribble around. Sure they can be very effective because they are just that good, but a PG that starts beside Lebron shouldn't be a guy who's a shoot-first player. A guy who scores 14-17 PPG but plays off the ball better (and looks to pass when he has the ball) would be better fit beside Lebron offensively


I think the shot clock winds down with the ball in Brons hand far more often. As for Irving off the ball, he's a an elite catch and shoot player. He spreads the floor off the ball and does it well. It sounds like you want a Derrick Fisher. He is good defender, spot shooter and will move the ball. I think the team becomes 100% dependent on clearing out for Bron and forcing him to create in this situation and think they become a worse team.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2016, 02:36 PM
I think the shot clock winds down with the ball in Brons hand far more often. As for Irving off the ball, he's a an elite catch and shoot player. He spreads the floor off the ball and does it well. It sounds like you want a Derrick Fisher. He is good defender, spot shooter and will move the ball. I think the team becomes 100% dependent on clearing out for Bron and forcing him to create in this situation and think they become a worse team.

I'm not talking about a Derek Fisher PG. I just said a guy who has a lower USG than Kryie and plays off the ball better. You don't need a guy who can score 25-30 PPG beside Lebron at the PG position taking the ball away from him. You certainly need a guy who can hold his own and not rely on Lebron but doesn't need to be a guy who uses the ball as much as Kyrie.

ewing
06-12-2016, 04:30 PM
I'm not talking about a Derek Fisher PG. I just said a guy who has a lower USG than Kryie and plays off the ball better. You don't need a guy who can score 25-30 PPG beside Lebron at the PG position taking the ball away from him. You certainly need a guy who can hold his own and not rely on Lebron but doesn't need to be a guy who uses the ball as much as Kyrie.


Does anyone but Mike Conley fit?

Stunner
06-12-2016, 07:35 PM
Does anyone but Mike Conley fit?

Honestly any 3 and D pg fits , George Hill def fits based off last years numbers . 44% FG and 40% from the 3.

15.8% Usage

Raps18-19 Champ
06-12-2016, 07:40 PM
Does anyone but Mike Conley fit?

Most PGs aren't build to fit beside a player like Lebron which is the problem. Lebron could have the same skillset but in a PGs body and you'll find dozens of all star or near all star SF/SGs who'll fit beside him.

ewing
06-12-2016, 07:48 PM
Honestly any 3 and D pg fits , George Hill def fits based off last years numbers . 44% FG and 40% from the 3.

15.8% Usage


Hill is a very good player and similar to Conley in my mind. I think the Cavs D gets a little boost from him but i don't think that would off set what you would lose on O and definitely don't think the Cavs offense improves b/c of Hill inability to create comparatively . Still good call on Hill fitting the bill. I think with the player Bron is right now the Cavs need a 2nd guy that can make plays. If you brought Hill in and Pual George in for Love now you have monster.

ewing
06-12-2016, 07:51 PM
I guess i am saying getting rid of Irving is the not the answer and if you did you would have to replace what you are losing with him.

Quinnsanity
06-12-2016, 08:09 PM
Zeek says hi...

Isiah's probably the highest iso PG, but he passed FAR more than Kyrie.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2016, 08:17 PM
People are so concerned with Irving's passing but LeBron is the de facto PG. :shrug:

The Cavs are an ISO heavy team, just like Miami was. They're always going to be that way as long as LeBron is the de facto PG because that's how his teams operate. Kyrie and his Finals leading 25 PPG are not Cleveland's problem. Cleveland's main problem is that Golden State is just clearly a superior team.

Stunner
06-12-2016, 08:55 PM
Kyrie passing wasn't even amazing when he was lone ISO guy. Him and Wall prob had the same amount off weak talent coming in and wall passed the rock better .


Kyrie prob only be a 5 maybe 7 at best assist guy he loves to dance

Stunner
06-12-2016, 09:00 PM
Hill is a very good player and similar to Conley in my mind. I think the Cavs D gets a little boost from him but i don't think that would off set what you would lose on O and definitely don't think the Cavs offense improves b/c of Hill inability to create comparatively . Still good call on Hill fitting the bill. I think with the player Bron is right now the Cavs need a 2nd guy that can make plays. If you brought Hill in and PG in for Love now you have monster.

Yea he can't create like career but neither could Chalmers lol . That just would have to get another caliber player to be apart of that big 3 but Hill would be the perfect PG for Bron who is cheap . You think Indy should offer Hill / Ellis and a few number 1s for Love . Then do a Kyrie for Melo swap ? Idk just spit balling

ewing
06-12-2016, 09:18 PM
People are so concerned with Irving's passing but LeBron is the de facto PG. :shrug:

The Cavs are an ISO heavy team, just like Miami was. They're always going to be that way as long as LeBron is the de facto PG because that's how his teams operate. Kyrie and his Finals leading 25 PPG are not Cleveland's problem. Cleveland's main problem is that Golden State is just clearly a superior team.


Its only an iso if Irving gets bottled up. When you clear a hole side Bron and he backs his guy to the cup that's ball movement

JOSKOMANG4
06-12-2016, 09:44 PM
Thoughts about a Kyrie to Pelicans for Jrue Holiday & 6th overall pick?

NO: Asik/Davis/Pondexter/Evans/Kyrie

Way draft is projected, Cavs should land Murray(UK) w/6th overall pick.

L:Thompson/Love/Lebron/Shump/Holiday
B: Murray, JR, Frye, Kaun

flattoprules21
06-12-2016, 09:46 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zmkwc7k
I think this helps all teams involved. (throw a couple first rounds to the Clippers)

JOSKOMANG4
06-12-2016, 09:46 PM
I would also consider a S&T to get Mike Conley.

Kyrie to Memphis for Conley 5yr 90mill

IndyRealist
06-12-2016, 10:28 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zmkwc7k
I think this helps all teams involved. (throw a couple first rounds to the Clippers)

How does PER have Phoenix +8 wins in that trade?

MTL_123
06-12-2016, 10:39 PM
Depends on who. If Clippers called the cavs and said Paul for Kyrie I might think about it.



More of a win now move. Kyrie is younger and Paul is a better overall player

MTL_123
06-12-2016, 10:40 PM
How does PER have Phoenix +8 wins in that trade?

lol cool trade but clippers get killed in that deal

ewing
06-12-2016, 10:48 PM
Depends on who. If Clippers called the cavs and said Paul for Kyrie I might think about it.



More of a win now move. Kyrie is younger and Paul is a better overall player

i think you have to make that move if you are Clev. I couldn't see the Clips doing it though. i actually think the Paul's game is more limited by Bron then Irvings. its just that Chris Paul is a better basketball player and as such even if Bron take away a little of his play making ability he still makes you significantly better then Irving does IMO.

MTL_123
06-12-2016, 11:02 PM
i think you have to make that move if you are Clev. I couldn't see the Clips doing it though. i actually think the Paul's game is more limited by Bron then Irvings. its just that Chris Paul is a better basketball player and as such even if Bron take away a little of his play making ability he still makes you significantly better then Irving does IMO.

Kyrie is way to much of an ISO player so if im the cavs i would do this.

I do think if they dont win this year(most likely) they need to trade Kyrie or Love. Their both just offensive players they need a better 2 way player

ewing
06-13-2016, 12:52 AM
Is it too late to start breeding players that fit perfectly with LeBron?

yubnh
06-13-2016, 10:41 AM
24 yr old pg not even in his prime yet. cavs would be dumb to trade himhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gifhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/7.gif

Hawkeye15
06-13-2016, 12:58 PM
I would look to move Kyrie from any playoff team personally, he is a horrid defender, and a net negative player.

Not sure how he gets so much love from fans, even here, where I thought the IQ level was higher.

Heediot
06-13-2016, 02:38 PM
It appears people want to surround Lebron with the roster that he had the first time around in Cleveland ROFL.

Vee-Rex
06-13-2016, 02:38 PM
I would look to move Kyrie from any playoff team personally, he is a horrid defender, and a net negative player.


These playoffs:

24ppg 47% FG 42% 3pt 85% FT 5apg 2.2 TOpg

23.9 PER/56%TS/.203 WS48/4.3 OBPM/0 DBPM/

That's a net negative player? Seriously?

Yet, this next player gets all the love in the world. No one criticizes him because he's not in the championship spot-light like Kyrie is. These playoffs:

26.5ppg 37%FG 39%3pt 91%FT 6apg 3TOpg

19.8 PER/53% TS/.118 WS48/3.8 OBPM/-0.3 DBPM

Lillard gets far more love than Kyrie ever did even when Kyrie was the sole person playing on the Cavs. And these Portland Trail-blazers are far better than the 2011-14 Cavs teams.

Heediot
06-13-2016, 02:43 PM
I would look to move Kyrie from any playoff team personally, he is a horrid defender, and a net negative player.

Not sure how he gets so much love from fans, even here, where I thought the IQ level was higher.

Kyrie is fine. This team needs him for the pressure and attention he forces on the defense. The problem is when Both him and Love are on the floor together against certain match-ups the defense is just too much of a liability. Last game he forced the issue and didn't execute in the clutch/4th, but overall he has come up nicely in the playoffs. Replace Love with a guy like Milsap or Horford and this team would be better. PG defense can be offset somewhat by good interior defense. It's harder to hide Love then Kyrie.

Vee-Rex
06-13-2016, 03:40 PM
Kyrie is fine. This team needs him for the pressure and attention he forces on the defense. The problem is when Both him and Love are on the floor together against certain match-ups the defense is just too much of a liability. Last game he forced the issue and didn't execute in the clutch/4th, but overall he has come up nicely in the playoffs. Replace Love with a guy like Milsap or Horford and this team would be better. PG defense can be offset somewhat by good interior defense. It's harder to hide Love then Kyrie.

This.

Also Kyrie is far more consistent and efficient on offense than Love.

A guy like Millsap instead of Love would be fantastic.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2016, 03:55 PM
How ironic is it that Kyrie gets absolutely killed for his defensive effort when the PG he's facing on the other end is Steph?

In fact the last 2 pgs to win back to back mvps are Curry and Nash!

This whole notion that you have to be a good defender to be a great player is a fallacy.

You shouldn't be a Haren, but not everybody is going to be a Kobe either.

mngopher35
06-13-2016, 04:13 PM
Kyrie is far closer to harden than Kobe on that end IMO.

Even with that said though I'm not sure kyrie really is the problem with this team. It seems like they lack defense and versatility a ton (which is why they don't match up well with gs) and that comes from love more than him probably.

Someone mentioned earlier that it's like people want him back on the old Cleveland teams and to an extent I think there is truth there. Cleveland should trade love to get extra fit while keeping kyrie as that 2nd option (maybe 1st solely as scorer) that he never really had. There is always a balance and while Miami kinda dropped off a bit with wades injury and change of boshs role they still found a way to fit together. Kyrie/love don't seem to be those players so you gotta trade one of them for that fit.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2016, 05:23 PM
These playoffs:

24ppg 47% FG 42% 3pt 85% FT 5apg 2.2 TOpg

23.9 PER/56%TS/.203 WS48/4.3 OBPM/0 DBPM/

That's a net negative player? Seriously?

Yet, this next player gets all the love in the world. No one criticizes him because he's not in the championship spot-light like Kyrie is. These playoffs:

26.5ppg 37%FG 39%3pt 91%FT 6apg 3TOpg

19.8 PER/53% TS/.118 WS48/3.8 OBPM/-0.3 DBPM

Lillard gets far more love than Kyrie ever did even when Kyrie was the sole person playing on the Cavs. And these Portland Trail-blazers are far better than the 2011-14 Cavs teams.

he is so pathetic defensively, he is a net negative to his team. I know his numbers. You are also leaving out his plus/minus, RPM (defensively he is a midget), his teams defensive efficiency when he sits (+6 better per 100 regular season, +16 better per 100 in playoffs) on defense, he doesn't get steals, doesn't rebound, should I go on? You can't tell me his defense, and him putting on dribbling clinics wasting time doesn't infuriate you.

I can't stand his game, it's not championship play. And it's an even worse pairing when teams go after a PnR, with Irving/Love guarding it.

I really don't think some of you understand how poor of a defender Irving is. And he doesn't get the Harden excuse of having to do everything for his team on offense, hence needing to save energy. He just doesn't give a ****, and isn't fundamentally sound at it.

Brought it up in another thread, I wouldn't trade Rubio for him if the Cavs called the Wolves. Not that that swap makes much sense for the Cavs either, but on most teams, I would take Rubio over Irving.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2016, 06:54 PM
I saw Kyrie, who is not the best player nor the leader of the Cavs, step up as the only guy willing to shoot the ball when things got tight last game.

Regardless of if he was making shots or not he was going all out. I applaud that.

Had Lebron took that attitude instead of waiting until the Dray incident happened to get fired up then Cleveland would've won....

Vee-Rex
06-13-2016, 06:59 PM
he is so pathetic defensively, he is a net negative to his team. I know his numbers. You are also leaving out his plus/minus, RPM (defensively he is a midget), his teams defensive efficiency when he sits (+6 better per 100 regular season, +16 better per 100 in playoffs) on defense, he doesn't get steals, doesn't rebound, should I go on? You can't tell me his defense, and him putting on dribbling clinics wasting time doesn't infuriate you.

I can't stand his game, it's not championship play. And it's an even worse pairing when teams go after a PnR, with Irving/Love guarding it.

I really don't think some of you understand how poor of a defender Irving is. And he doesn't get the Harden excuse of having to do everything for his team on offense, hence needing to save energy. He just doesn't give a ****, and isn't fundamentally sound at it.

Brought it up in another thread, I wouldn't trade Rubio for him if the Cavs called the Wolves. Not that that swap makes much sense for the Cavs either, but on most teams, I would take Rubio over Irving.

Lol I put up his plus/minus (from this year's playoffs). Kyrie's RPM this year has suffered because he hadn't played basketball in, you know, 6 freaking months and it took him AWHILE to gain his offensive rhythm back. So not only was he not good defensively already, but his offense suffered.

But low and behold, take a look at his RPM in the 2014-15 season and he's top 5 in Point Guards. TOP FIVE.

And his defense while bad has stepped up in 2 straight playoffs (including last year when he was playing hurt for the 2nd and 3rd round) so obviously he's capable of being a somewhat average defender when he's giving it his all. He's just less likely to play that way in a long, 82-game regular season when injury is a legit concern for him.

Not to mention he's only 24 and nowhere near his prime. So as much as you want to hate on his game and his defense, you claiming he's a net negative is just outright ludicrous.

I'd take Kyrie over Rubio 24/7 and twice on Sundays.

Chronz
06-13-2016, 07:26 PM
the answer is there star not being a totally ***** and knocking down a 17 foot shot when its offered.

So magic is a totally *****?

ewing
06-13-2016, 11:18 PM
So magic is a totally *****?

if you cant expect him to take and open mid range J he isn't close as good as advertised. I'm glad he finally showed up and isn't playing scared tonight.

ewing
06-13-2016, 11:29 PM
I would look to move Kyrie from any playoff team personally, he is a horrid defender, and a net negative player.

Not sure how he gets so much love from fans, even here, where I thought the IQ level was higher.

him and Daniel Murphy the both of them

Vee-Rex
06-13-2016, 11:40 PM
Hawkeye... net negative? You watching these finals, brag?

Tony_Starks
06-13-2016, 11:48 PM
Kyrie Net Negative Irrrrrrrrving!!!

Yanks All Day
06-14-2016, 12:11 AM
There's a real argument to make that Steph Curry has been the 3rd best PG in this series behind Kyrie Irving and Shaun Livingston. Trading Curry might be the way Golden State tops 73-9 next year.

bucketss
06-14-2016, 12:12 AM
people suggesting trading him for conely and hill :eyebrow:

Tony_Starks
06-14-2016, 12:20 AM
What about not trading Kyrie for Ricky Rubio!!

Rubio is probably at home playing with Kyrie on NBA2k as we speak! Lol

FOXHOUND
06-14-2016, 12:31 AM
Kyrie Irving is averaging 35 PPG while shooting 56% from the field and 50% from 3 the last 3 games.

:faint:

:worthy:

Tony_Starks
06-14-2016, 12:47 AM
Only player besides Wilt to score 40+ on 70% FG in a Finals game.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-14-2016, 12:51 AM
It's totally the answer.

karyze
06-14-2016, 12:27 PM
24 yr old pg not even in his prime yet. cavs would be dumb to trade himhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gifhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/8.gif

FlashBolt
06-14-2016, 12:35 PM
You guys are looking at this and thinking he'll do this for every game and season. The Cavs are better with CP3 than Kyrie. That's just a fact. When Kyrie's shots aren't going in, Hawkeyes right, he's a net-negative. There isn't much value to Kyrie other than scoring. He isn't a defender, playmaker, and has terrible shot selection because he has become too comfortable with ISO basketball. I don't think trading Kyrie is first priority as I think Love absolutely needs to go but this is a valid question. If Cavs can get a player like CP3, they can be much better at all facets of the game (including offensively). A Blake Griffin/CP3 for Love/Irving would work wonders for both teams. You have DeAndre being the defender and Love can just do his thing without having the pressure to defend, you have a coach in Doc who understands how PG's work and can try to get Irving to develop his talent further, and you have a Cleveland team that has all the questions answered. LeBron and BG running the fastbreak with CP3 is unstoppable every time. So no, trading him isn't the answer as it is obvious Love needs to be traded but if the option of Kyrie for CP3 comes up, you have to do it. As good as Kyrie is offensively, he's not better than CP3 in a complete offensive system. He's not even close defensively. Like I said, CP3 is still a top ten player and IMO, a top 2-3 PG. Throughout the season, Cavs have had issues so let's stop pretending that Kyrie wasn't a part of those issues.

Chronz
06-14-2016, 12:45 PM
if you cant expect him to take and open mid range J he isn't close as good as advertised. I'm glad he finally showed up and isn't playing scared tonight.

So Magic wasn't as good as advertised cuz he was an even worse shooter. Got it

FlashBolt
06-14-2016, 12:51 PM
Only player besides Wilt to score 40+ on 70% FG in a Finals game.

ONLY player to score 40+ in a Finals game while shooting 70%. Wilt's game doesn't count. Kobe had the highest scoring game, not Wilt. It's not fair to players today when the game was still in the baby steps back when Wilt played. Any 60 point game would be more impressive than Wilt by default that it's not even comparable in difficulty.

Tony_Starks
06-14-2016, 01:06 PM
ONLY player to score 40+ in a Finals game while shooting 70%. Wilt's game doesn't count. Kobe had the highest scoring game, not Wilt. It's not fair to players today when the game was still in the baby steps back when Wilt played. Any 60 point game would be more impressive than Wilt by default that it's not even comparable in difficulty.

You gets no argument here. I said Kobes 81 from all over the floor against a zone was greater than Wilt 100 slam and jam when it happened but of course I'm biased.

ewing
06-14-2016, 01:07 PM
So Magic wasn't as good as advertised cuz he was an even worse shooter. Got it

and Shaq M I RITE? I get it you found one ball dominate perimeter play maker who was able to get it done with hitting Js. Whatever. James wasn't doing his job. if you want to cover for him fine but it is what it is.

DboneG
06-14-2016, 01:44 PM
Is trading Kyrie the answer? No. Kyrie only gets better with age. Can you see Kyrie two years from now, with a better jump/3pt. shot? Whew! Dude can already shoot! Two years from now?! He only gets better.


Is trading Kevin Love the answer? Yes and no. If the Cavs win it all, and Kevin Love continue to accept his role. The Cavs will be awesome! Because, he only gets better. I don't think Kevin Love enjoy his role...and will ask for a trade if they lose in the Finals. He's had a tough season. He's having a tough Finals. Even though he didn't score much, Kevin was in the game big time on hustle points, moving on screens, helping out, blocking out, closing. So, in my book he had a good game. If the Cavs lose...HE GONE!

Chronz
06-14-2016, 01:52 PM
and Shaq M I RITE? I get it you found one ball dominate perimeter play maker who was able to get it done with hitting Js. Whatever. James wasn't doing his job. if you want to cover for him fine but it is what it is.

Shaq didn't need to learn how to shoot. James declined.

How is recognizing that Bron is a poor shooter "covering" for him? I didn't get a chance to respond to your thread but him not shooting isn't what I've been upset with, its him driving to pass ala Rondo in G4 that was his biggest undoing. Im actually OK with him not taking jumpers since hes operating alot from the post. So long as he keeps moving and attacking, they are elite. Hes never been a shooter but now he knows its really the last option, its taken away some of his aggressiveness.

Heediot
06-14-2016, 02:07 PM
You guys are looking at this and thinking he'll do this for every game and season. The Cavs are better with CP3 than Kyrie. That's just a fact. When Kyrie's shots aren't going in, Hawkeyes right, he's a net-negative. There isn't much value to Kyrie other than scoring. He isn't a defender, playmaker, and has terrible shot selection because he has become too comfortable with ISO basketball. I don't think trading Kyrie is first priority as I think Love absolutely needs to go but this is a valid question. If Cavs can get a player like CP3, they can be much better at all facets of the game (including offensively). A Blake Griffin/CP3 for Love/Irving would work wonders for both teams. You have DeAndre being the defender and Love can just do his thing without having the pressure to defend, you have a coach in Doc who understands how PG's work and can try to get Irving to develop his talent further, and you have a Cleveland team that has all the questions answered. LeBron and BG running the fastbreak with CP3 is unstoppable every time. So no, trading him isn't the answer as it is obvious Love needs to be traded but if the option of Kyrie for CP3 comes up, you have to do it. As good as Kyrie is offensively, he's not better than CP3 in a complete offensive system. He's not even close defensively. Like I said, CP3 is still a top ten player and IMO, a top 2-3 PG. Throughout the season, Cavs have had issues so let's stop pretending that Kyrie wasn't a part of those issues.

Nobody is saying he is better then Cp3. And no he won't put up 41 on 70 every game, but he has been consistent with his shot more times than not these playoffs. He has probably been the most consistent volume shooter and scorer in the playoffs, so give the man credit. He has stepped up nicely in the finals after a bad start (outside of the 4th q in game 4 as well).

This thread is about whether he is a better fit vs. Love if one were to be traded, I don't think it's debatable at this point. As PRESENTLY constructed, he is by far a better fit.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2016, 03:19 PM
The guy is averaging 28.2 PPG, 4.6 APG, 2.4 STL, just 2.6 TO and is shooting .487/.409/.909 in the NBA Finals. He is not remotely a problem for Cleveland, at all. What does LeBron need, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan? Let's throw in Duncan and Kareem, for good measure. Holy **** lol.

Tony_Starks
06-14-2016, 03:31 PM
The guy is averaging 28.2 PPG, 4.6 APG, 2.4 STL, just 2.6 TO and is shooting .487/.409/.909 in the NBA Finals. He is not remotely a problem for Cleveland, at all. What does LeBron need, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan? Let's throw in Duncan and Kareem, for good measure. Holy **** lol.

Lol we make stuff too complicated man. Fans these days are crazy.

Too quick to criticize and too slow to appreciate.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2016, 03:38 PM
Lol we make stuff too complicated man. Fans these days are crazy.

Too quick to criticize and too slow to appreciate.

Seriously dude lol. If we had a hazy crystal ball before the Finals started and knew that after 5 games the Warriors would be up 3-2 and a PG would have that line, who would we guess? How many people would say, oh that's Curry locking up Finals MVP and continuing his run to be an all time great? But it's Kyrie so people are still talking about how he needs to be moved.

If LeBron had that all-time lineup people would be talking about having to trade Magic because he's not a good enough shooter or on ball defender. :laugh2:

Vee-Rex
06-14-2016, 04:45 PM
You guys are looking at this and thinking he'll do this for every game and season. The Cavs are better with CP3 than Kyrie. That's just a fact. When Kyrie's shots aren't going in, Hawkeyes right, he's a net-negative. There isn't much value to Kyrie other than scoring. He isn't a defender, playmaker, and has terrible shot selection because he has become too comfortable with ISO basketball. I don't think trading Kyrie is first priority as I think Love absolutely needs to go but this is a valid question. If Cavs can get a player like CP3, they can be much better at all facets of the game (including offensively). A Blake Griffin/CP3 for Love/Irving would work wonders for both teams. You have DeAndre being the defender and Love can just do his thing without having the pressure to defend, you have a coach in Doc who understands how PG's work and can try to get Irving to develop his talent further, and you have a Cleveland team that has all the questions answered. LeBron and BG running the fastbreak with CP3 is unstoppable every time. So no, trading him isn't the answer as it is obvious Love needs to be traded but if the option of Kyrie for CP3 comes up, you have to do it. As good as Kyrie is offensively, he's not better than CP3 in a complete offensive system. He's not even close defensively. Like I said, CP3 is still a top ten player and IMO, a top 2-3 PG. Throughout the season, Cavs have had issues so let's stop pretending that Kyrie wasn't a part of those issues.

LOL no one is expecting him to put up these numbers all the time. And yes, CP3 is a better point guard, a better overall player, and probably a better fit on these Cavs. If the Clippers said yes, then we'd probably have to make that trade.

But the subject of the thread (based off the OP's post) is: "Is Kyrie the problem and should he be traded" and the answer to that is NO. He may not be the best option at point guard for us in the league but that doesn't mean he's a net negative.

Net negative means: we're a worse team with him than w/o, and too many airheads (not calling anyone in this thread that, but just the general bashing without thinking) get caught up in dragging RBPM numbers out of context.

FlashBolt
06-14-2016, 05:21 PM
LOL no one is expecting him to put up these numbers all the time. And yes, CP3 is a better point guard, a better overall player, and probably a better fit on these Cavs. If the Clippers said yes, then we'd probably have to make that trade.

But the subject of the thread (based off the OP's post) is: "Is Kyrie the problem and should he be traded" and the answer to that is NO. He may not be the best option at point guard for us in the league but that doesn't mean he's a net negative.

Net negative means: we're a worse team with him than w/o, and too many airheads (not calling anyone in this thread that, but just the general bashing without thinking) get caught up in dragging RBPM numbers out of context.

So the actual subject doesn't say if Kyrie is the problem. It says that trading Kyrie may be the answer. By default, that assumes that any player who makes the team better is an answer. So trading Kyrie is the answer IN MY OPINION, if you can get a player like RWB or CP3. That's simply a fact and I don't think anyone can deny that. And yes, net negative does mean that... and if Kyrie isn't scoring well, he's usually net-negative because he provides a lackluster defense, isn't a good playmaker, and doesn't do much of anything else. When he's off, he's really off. A guy like CP3 will never be net-negative because he defends at a high level, rebounds at a high level, and can score/playmake like the best passing PG can in NBA history. So this isn't a question of whether or not I'd trade Kyrie because he's the problem with the Cavs. Love is the problem with the Cavs. But if you're telling me that trading Kyrie for CP3 won't be the answer, that's just wrong. CP3 would make this team much better.

Heediot
06-14-2016, 05:29 PM
Cavs won't get Cp3 or Westbrook for Kyrie. Maybe they could of had a Conley/Lee combo which is realistic. Even with Conley and the way the Cavs play, LeBron needs a top number 2 guy. Neither Love or Conley would help carry the load on offense with the LeBron's style of play. Love is capable of being a legit number two but not with Bron. Conley could be a nice all-around point guard with good defense, but he has never had the ability to carry an offense or take over games in the long run. He'll be lucky to have 30 points in a game in a series. They would still make the finals easily, but this team would just be a slightly better version of LeBron's old Cavs. Replace Mo's bad defense with Love's.

FlashBolt
06-14-2016, 05:33 PM
Cavs won't get Cp3 or Westbrook for Kyrie. Maybe they could of had a Conley/Lee combo which is realistic. Even with Conley and the way the Cavs play, LeBron needs a top number 2 guy. Neither Love or Conley would help carry the load on offense with the LeBron's style of play. Love is capable of being a legit number two but not with Bron. Conley could be a nice all-around point guard with good defense, but he has never had the ability to carry an offense or take over games in the long run. He'll be lucky to have 30 points in a game in a series. They would still make the finals easily, but this team would just be a slightly better version of LeBron's old Cavs. Replace Mo's bad defense with Love's.

No way Cavs trade Kyrie unless they are getting any of the following:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
MAYBE John Wall, Bledsoe, or Lillard.

The rest are not on his level.

Heediot
06-14-2016, 05:43 PM
No way Cavs trade Kyrie unless they are getting any of the following:

Curry
Westbrook
CP3
MAYBE John Wall, Bledsoe, or Lillard.

The rest are not on his level.

Exactly.

But realistically, those others team won't be giving up their star PG's for Kyrie. I don't even see the Wiz or Portland giving up their guy for Kyrie. Bledsoe is a realistic player they would be able to nab, they could probably have another decent player with him. Bledsoe is a beast defensively and has some good scoring nights, I still think Kyrie gives them more wins overall in the long term the EBled. If the other teams won't give up their top PG for Kyrie, I don't see the point in speculating about unrealistic scenarios in this thread.

Vee-Rex
06-14-2016, 06:20 PM
So the actual subject doesn't say if Kyrie is the problem. It says that trading Kyrie may be the answer. By default, that assumes that any player who makes the team better is an answer. So trading Kyrie is the answer IN MY OPINION, if you can get a player like RWB or CP3. That's simply a fact and I don't think anyone can deny that. And yes, net negative does mean that... and if Kyrie isn't scoring well, he's usually net-negative because he provides a lackluster defense, isn't a good playmaker, and doesn't do much of anything else. When he's off, he's really off. A guy like CP3 will never be net-negative because he defends at a high level, rebounds at a high level, and can score/playmake like the best passing PG can in NBA history. So this isn't a question of whether or not I'd trade Kyrie because he's the problem with the Cavs. Love is the problem with the Cavs. But if you're telling me that trading Kyrie for CP3 won't be the answer, that's just wrong. CP3 would make this team much better.

Trading Kyrie for CP3 is just as much of an answer for the Cavs as it is for the Clippers to trade CP3 for Curry. Or for the Raptors to trade Lowry for Westbrook. Or for the Pacers to trade George for LeBron.

That's not really saying much.

Also, the whole "IF Kyrie isn't scoring well" is pretty arbritrary and subjective. The only time I see him being a net-negative on the court is if he has a game where he scores 14 points on 4/16 shooting, but those are really, really, really rare.

The problem is people start expecting Kyrie to put up 30+ ppg, and if he simply has a game where he scores 21 points on 7/15 shooting then they go HE'S A NET-NEGATIVE CUZ HE DIDN'T EXPLODE. And that's just nonsense.

Very rarely does Kyrie have such an awful offensive game that he's actually a net-negative, and anyone claiming that he's NORMALLY a net-negative (and people make these kind of assertions) is bonkers.

FlashBolt
06-14-2016, 08:08 PM
Trading Kyrie for CP3 is just as much of an answer for the Cavs as it is for the Clippers to trade CP3 for Curry. Or for the Raptors to trade Lowry for Westbrook. Or for the Pacers to trade George for LeBron.

That's not really saying much.

Also, the whole "IF Kyrie isn't scoring well" is pretty arbritrary and subjective. The only time I see him being a net-negative on the court is if he has a game where he scores 14 points on 4/16 shooting, but those are really, really, really rare.

The problem is people start expecting Kyrie to put up 30+ ppg, and if he simply has a game where he scores 21 points on 7/15 shooting then they go HE'S A NET-NEGATIVE CUZ HE DIDN'T EXPLODE. And that's just nonsense.

Very rarely does Kyrie have such an awful offensive game that he's actually a net-negative, and anyone claiming that he's NORMALLY a net-negative (and people make these kind of assertions) is bonkers.

That's what his question was, though. I think it is the answer because Kyrie+Love don't fit together with James. We've seen them struggle before. Last night was the best game by a duo ever so maybe that still affects the way you think. In reality, their entire season wasn't very successful by any means. They should crack 60+ wins easily, to be honest. He's a net negative when he isn't scoring. That much is obvious... what else does he contribute to the team if not by scoring?

jonathank84
06-15-2016, 10:36 AM
kyrie's defense is utter trash, he needs the boot

Vee-Rex
06-15-2016, 11:02 AM
That's what his question was, though. I think it is the answer because Kyrie+Love don't fit together with James.

I agree that Kyrie + Love is a bad fit.


In reality, their entire season wasn't very successful by any means. They should crack 60+ wins easily, to be honest.

I disagree on the 60+ wins part. They were obviously coasting a bit considering that they swept a Detroit team that won the season series 3-1, and knocked off a Toronto team that won the season series 2-1.

Not to mention they were missing Shumpert + Irving until mid-late December, and it took Irving a LONG time to find his offensive rhythm.

Not to mention, the Cavs STILL finished with 57 wins. I mean, how high are people's expectations? Seriously... 57 wins is really good. In fact, they finished with pretty much the exact same winning percentage as the Miami Heat did in their 2nd year together with their big 3 (Cavs .695 Heat .697). And I would bet everything I own that that 2012 Heat team would lose in the finals to this 2016 Warriors team. So I think you're just letting all the negative media towards the Cavs influence you into thinking that they weren't very successful this year at all.


He's a net negative when he isn't scoring. That much is obvious... what else does he contribute to the team if not by scoring?

Please, explain to me what when he isn't scoring means. Two missed shots? 18 points or less? Because I bet your definition of when he isn't scoring is completely arbitrary.

eDush
06-15-2016, 11:27 AM
I've heard LeBron doesn't like playing with Kyrie. If that's the case he could easily be traded. I'm sure they'd love to have CP3 but I don't see that happening. I LOL'd hard the the thought I read where the Clippers would trade Blake and CP3 for Kyrie and Love. The value there isn't very close but that's what makes internet GM's so much fun ;) It's too bad the Cavs don't have young assets to add. I can see these teams swapping stars in either CP3 for Kyrie or Blake for Love but Cleveland would need to add something pretty significant in either case to get it done. They don't have that piece.
He doesn't want Kyrie taking his thunder as the best player on the team I think and is worried. Kyrie not scoring more but matching Lebron score in the last game might sooth the notion to being his guy once again. It's knowing your place in this world when kings used to be kings I think:nod:.

Tony_Starks
06-15-2016, 11:47 AM
Cavs fans, anyone observant, and more importantly Lebron James himself know what Kyrie brings to the table. He's more than proven himself this run and reinforced the reason Lebron even came back in the first place.

If they lose it won't be on him. The biggest weakness I see in Cleveland is actually their bench. If they had another playmaker off the bench, someone that could create for himself or others, this would be a very different story.

It will be interesting to see what they get for Love. Instead of trying to get another "star" back I'd be looking for some good young talent and picks.

Kyrie is only going to get better, that 1-2 punch of him and Bron is a better look than a "big three" imo. Just fill the bench with talent like the Dubs and Spurs.

vhgjin
06-15-2016, 12:30 PM
Hes been the only one who can create.http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/9.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif

Chronz
06-15-2016, 12:58 PM
He doesn't want Kyrie taking his thunder as the best player on the team I think and is worried. Kyrie not scoring more but matching Lebron score in the last game might sooth the notion to being his guy once again. It's knowing your place in this world when kings used to be kings I think:nod:.
Taking his thunder? And That's supposed to be quelled by trading for a more ball dominant and productive player? Your jokes Should still make sense bro

Chronz
06-15-2016, 01:01 PM
Cavs fans, anyone observant, and more importantly Lebron James himself know what Kyrie brings to the table. He's more than proven himself this run and reinforced the reason Lebron even came back in the first place.

If they lose it won't be on him. The biggest weakness I see in Cleveland is actually their bench. If they had another playmaker off the bench, someone that could create for himself or others, this would be a very different story.

It will be interesting to see what they get for Love. Instead of trying to get another "star" back I'd be looking for some good young talent and picks.

Kyrie is only going to get better, that 1-2 punch of him and Bron is a better look than a "big three" imo. Just fill the bench with talent like the Dubs and Spurs.
Kyrie does hold more value so the haul could be greater.

Rumors were that Kyrie didn't like playing with Bron. I could see why but they really do need each other.

Heediot
06-16-2016, 07:18 AM
To Boston K. Love & Mo

To Cleveland Crowder, Amir Johnson, Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zg64bqz

Starting 5: Kyrie, Crowder, James, Amir, Thompson
Bench: Delly, JR, Shump, RJ, Sullinger, Frye

This trade gives the Cavs a stronger defensive starting unit and brings more fire-power and depth to the bench. They have the option to switch up Amir with Sullinger if they prefer more offense on the starting unit.

Boston gets a all-star caliber player that they seek.

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 07:36 AM
Cavs fans, anyone observant, and more importantly Lebron James himself know what Kyrie brings to the table. He's more than proven himself this run and reinforced the reason Lebron even came back in the first place.

If they lose it won't be on him. The biggest weakness I see in Cleveland is actually their bench. If they had another playmaker off the bench, someone that could create for himself or others, this would be a very different story.

It will be interesting to see what they get for Love. Instead of trying to get another "star" back I'd be looking for some good young talent and picks.

Kyrie is only going to get better, that 1-2 punch of him and Bron is a better look than a "big three" imo. Just fill the bench with talent like the Dubs and Spurs.

Bingo. A healthy Kyrie is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. At this point in his career LeBron needs someone like that who can take the ball out of his hands and create. LeBron needs to move to PF full-time and start working more out of the post. Let Kyrie handle the top of the key action.

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 07:38 AM
To Boston K. Love & Mo

To Cleveland Crowder, Amir Johnson, Sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zg64bqz

Starting 5: Kyrie, Crowder, James, Amir, Thompson
Bench: Delly, JR, Shump, RJ, Sullinger, Frye

This trade gives the Cavs a stronger defensive starting unit and brings more fire-power and depth to the bench. They have the option to switch up Amir with Sullinger if they prefer more offense on the starting unit.

Boston gets a all-star caliber player that they seek.

Kyrie-JR-Crowder-James-TT but yeah that's not a bad move. I'd love to see Crowder bring up his perimeter shooting numbers so he can fulfill his destiny as a 3 and D stud.

Heediot
06-16-2016, 07:45 AM
Kyrie-JR-Crowder-James-TT but yeah that's not a bad move. I'd love to see Crowder bring up his perimeter shooting numbers so he can fulfill his destiny as a 3 and D stud.

Yeah JR would be nice in a small ball lineup. That unit could match up well with the death line-up. Amir's ability to switch on defense can also help against the Warriors if needed.

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 08:01 AM
Yeah JR would be nice in a small ball lineup. That unit could match up well with the death line-up. Amir's ability to switch on defense can also help against the Warriors if needed.

Amir would backup TT nicely tbh. I just want Lue or LeBron to figure out that for that team to reach it's full potential Kyrie needs to run more of the offense at the top of the key. There's a reason LeBron gets compared to Magic... he's at that point in his career where he can handle a more permanent move to the block and high post.

jdgyju
06-16-2016, 11:49 AM
24 yr old pg not even in his prime yet. cavs would be dumb to trade himhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/10.gif

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 11:52 AM
Bingo. A healthy Kyrie is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. At this point in his career LeBron needs someone like that who can take the ball out of his hands and create. LeBron needs to move to PF full-time and start working more out of the post. Let Kyrie handle the top of the key action.

and yet, over the course of the season, his team is no better with him playing than him sitting.

He is a gifted scorer. He is also the worst defender at his position of anyone that plays his minutes. He doesn't add anything outside scoring, and is bad enough at the other parts of the game, that his offensive prowess doesn't lead to anything positive when you factor in what the other stuff does negatively.

I do agree, LeBron at this point needs another creator. That I can agree with for sure.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2016, 12:28 PM
and yet, over the course of this season where he made his late December return from a horrible knee injury and took until March/April to fully get his game back, his team is no better with him playing than him sitting.

But I'll conveniently ignore the 2016 playoffs where Kyrie is shattering RBPM numbers, and I'll also ignore the 2014/15 season when Kyrie finished as the 5th best PG in RBPM numbers and solidified himself as possibly the 2nd/3rd best scoring PG in the league.

Instead I'll focus on his poor regular season defense and declare him as a net negative player.

ftfy

Hawkeye15
06-16-2016, 12:42 PM
ftfy

yep, we don't agree. I haven't liked his game since day 1. Its playground

Vee-Rex
06-16-2016, 12:48 PM
yep, we don't agree. I haven't liked his game since day 1. Its playground

There's a ton of players that have games that I don't care for. Doesn't mean I should short-change them on their impact on the court, though.

Chronz
06-16-2016, 01:27 PM
Kyrie has impressed me after that disastrous start but you dont just look at the wins. I fully believe in the law of averages, if you suck BALLS in the first 2 on BOTH ends, you damn well better come up huge in another game to make up for it. Put it this way, the rate at which Kyrie scored was historical, the rate at which the opposing team abused him defensively was equally efficient, then you factor in his abysmal offensive showing and you can see how he would be a highly net negative player in more games than you'd like to see but that holds true for alot of alleged stars.
Kyrie has to score in order to have the value he does, when he struggles offensively, it usually hinders his defense. If he can fix that issue, he will rarely be a net negative, I know hes only a PG but there is SOOO much more he can do defensively, we're talking about very fixable issues with him. Hes so young I do think Hawk is dismissing him too easily, look at CP3. He always got the steals but he wasn't even a good defender when he first started, It took him a few years to stop ball watching and anticipate whats going on behind him in the PnR. Of course it doesn't hurt having anchors like Tyson, Okafor and now DJ to communicate but CP3 truly learns the intricacies of his teammates/rivals defensively, he defends the PnR much differently depending on who the roll man/roll defenders are.

I give Kyrie a B+/A- for his series thus far, hes certainly outplayed Curry thats for sure but he cant have any more games where he launches a jumper with poor transition balance and then just stare at the ball as it rims in/out. Dude needs to recognize when he takes those early shots, he needs to run back immediately upon releasing the ball.

KnicksorBust
06-16-2016, 03:11 PM
Kyrie has impressed me after that disastrous start but you dont just look at the wins. I fully believe in the law of averages, if you suck BALLS in the first 2 on BOTH ends, you damn well better come up huge in another game to make up for it. Put it this way, the rate at which Kyrie scored was historical, the rate at which the opposing team abused him defensively was equally efficient, then you factor in his abysmal offensive showing and you can see how he would be a highly net negative player in more games than you'd like to see but that holds true for alot of alleged stars.
Kyrie has to score in order to have the value he does, when he struggles offensively, it usually hinders his defense. If he can fix that issue, he will rarely be a net negative, I know hes only a PG but there is SOOO much more he can do defensively, we're talking about very fixable issues with him. Hes so young I do think Hawk is dismissing him too easily, look at CP3. He always got the steals but he wasn't even a good defender when he first started, It took him a few years to stop ball watching and anticipate whats going on behind him in the PnR. Of course it doesn't hurt having anchors like Tyson, Okafor and now DJ to communicate but CP3 truly learns the intricacies of his teammates/rivals defensively, he defends the PnR much differently depending on who the roll man/roll defenders are.

I give Kyrie a B+/A- for his series thus far, hes certainly outplayed Curry thats for sure but he cant have any more games where he launches a jumper with poor transition balance and then just stare at the ball as it rims in/out. Dude needs to recognize when he takes those early shots, he needs to run back immediately upon releasing the ball.

If he's historically awesome tonight and sunday no one is going to care about his defense in the other games.

Chronz
06-16-2016, 03:38 PM
If he's historically awesome tonight and sunday no one is going to care about his defense in the other games.

Well no ****, most people have memory issues so they basically only remember the winners. I try to keep everything fresh. Its why i rehash old debates.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2016, 03:47 PM
Out of his 19 playoff games this year I want someone to point out to me more than 3 games where he could be viewed as a net-negative.

People like Lillard don't get anywhere near the heat that Kyrie does even though Lillard has always been worst offensively (from an efficiency standpoint) and pretty equivalent defensively.

Lillard has never shot above 43% in any season or playoffs ever. He's a career 42% shooter in the regular season and 40% shooter in the playoffs, and his defense is only a hair's difference better than Kyrie if you go by the same metric (DBPM) that Kyrie gets murdered by. Lillard only averages a career 0.8 assists more than Kyrie (6.3 vs. 5.5).

Lillard gets less steals per game, same blocks, exact same turnovers. They're both extremely clutch (especially Kyrie). I mean, you can't make up 2 players who are as identical as these two are except for efficiency which Kyrie murders him on. Not to mention Kyrie's playoff numbers are monster whereas Lillard's aren't. Even prior to LBJ and Love coming to Cleveland, Kyrie was the better player (numbers-wise).

I'm not trying to criticize Lillard here, I'm showing the double standard of how one player is beloved and the other isn't, and when guys go so far as to call Kyrie a net-negative player (sure he has GAMES where he is, since his defense is bad) while heralding Lillard then something is wrong here.

Y'all need to wake up lol

Chronz
06-16-2016, 04:47 PM
Out of his 19 playoff games this year I want someone to point out to me more than 3 games where he could be viewed as a net-negative.

People like Lillard don't get anywhere near the heat that Kyrie does even though Lillard has always been worst offensively (from an efficiency standpoint) and pretty equivalent defensively.

Lillard has never shot above 43% in any season or playoffs ever. He's a career 42% shooter in the regular season and 40% shooter in the playoffs, and his defense is only a hair's difference better than Kyrie if you go by the same metric (DBPM) that Kyrie gets murdered by. Lillard only averages a career 0.8 assists more than Kyrie (6.3 vs. 5.5).

Lillard gets less steals per game, same blocks, exact same turnovers. They're both extremely clutch (especially Kyrie). I mean, you can't make up 2 players who are as identical as these two are except for efficiency which Kyrie murders him on. Not to mention Kyrie's playoff numbers are monster whereas Lillard's aren't. Even prior to LBJ and Love coming to Cleveland, Kyrie was the better player (numbers-wise).

I'm not trying to criticize Lillard here, I'm showing the double standard of how one player is beloved and the other isn't, and when guys go so far as to call Kyrie a net-negative player (sure he has GAMES where he is, since his defense is bad) while heralding Lillard then something is wrong here.

Y'all need to wake up lol

The thing with Lillard is that he's outperformed in every situation he's been cast. Even this year when everyone wrote off his team, he improved his defense and led the team in ways the Kyrie has never proven.

They are similar talents but I'll admit i haven't dissected your production points. I'll look into them but the quality of opponent, defensive attention and overall efficiency is very important here. Its not like Lillard got to face the likes of Detroit here. He took on the same team that stunted a young curry and exceeded him imo. I just can't give Kyrie props over someone like lillard when he's proven less overall.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2016, 05:21 PM
DBPM shows that Lillard's defense regressed big time this year in the regular season compared to last (-2.2 this year, 0 last year), and his defense has gotten progressively worse in every playoffs. He also has a better defensive team surrounding him to make up for his defensive issues.

Portland made a late but impressive run to make the 5th seed, but 22 of their 30 wins in the 2016 calendar year were against sub .500 teams, not to mention his current Portland team is miles better than any of Kyrie's pre-big 3 teams, NOT TO MENTION that Kyrie has gotten his teams somewhat close to the playoffs in 2 separate years but injuries have kept his impact minimal.

If we really, really examine things in context there is absolutely no reason one should be regarded so much more highly than the other. IMO, neither Lillard or Irving are net negatives because there is a **** ton of variables not being accounted to ever suggest that these players are making their teams worse by playing, and these variables simply cannot be reflected in statistics.