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View Full Version : LBJ on pace to lead both teams in pts, asts, rbs, in back-to-back finals



JasonJohnHorn
06-10-2016, 06:35 PM
LBJ is currently on pace to lead both finals teams in ppg, rpg, and apg, something that has only been done once before: last year, by LBJ.

I was dumbfounded when he pulled this off last year, and though his all-around game was more dominant last season in the finals, he is still leading all players in these categories, and has added steals to the list.


How impressive is this?

Chronz
06-10-2016, 06:44 PM
Amazing how the guy racks up stats but hes played pretty much at his base standard, havent seen a truly transcendent Bron game these playoffs.

DboneG
06-10-2016, 06:50 PM
It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring.

beasted86
06-10-2016, 06:53 PM
Not impressive if he loses. Meaning nobody's going to talk about it otherwise.

There are a bunch of HOF or future HOF players that you can find on basketball reference that totally dominated a series statistically: Kobe, Duncan, Wade, Dirk, etc. with the type of stats that make you say "Wait, are you sure he put that up and they still lost? How?"

Winning is the only time the majority of fans and analysts put statistical impact into proper perspective.

FlashBolt
06-10-2016, 06:56 PM
/
Not impressive if he loses. Meaning nobody's going to talk about it otherwise.

There are a bunch of HOF or future HOF players that you can find on basketball reference that totally dominated a series statistically: Kobe, Duncan, Wade, Dirk, etc. with the type of stats that make you say "Wait, are you sure he put that up and they still lost? How?"

Winning is the only time the majority of fans and analysts put statistical impact into proper perspective.

How? Because it's a team game. It's still impressive because he's successfully being the best rebounder, passer, scorer, and making a case for being the best defender as well (Tristan's impact might be bigger because of his position but LeBron has had some great defensive plays). I remember when LeBron averaged 39/9/9 against the Magic in the 2009 ECF. Yeah, he may have lost but it was truly special watching him dominate.

CHANGO
06-10-2016, 07:18 PM
Amazing how the guy racks up stats but hes played pretty much at his base standard, havent seen a truly transcendent Bron game these playoffs.

This.

Like always he dominates every category. But on these Finals he has been his average self.

JasonJohnHorn
06-10-2016, 11:11 PM
Amazing how the guy racks up stats but hes played pretty much at his base standard, havent seen a truly transcendent Bron game these playoffs.

I hear people say he has to 'take it to the next level'. I'll gladly admit there are flaws in his game (I am not a LBJ fan per se), but I think it is to his credit that he puts it all out on the floor every night. Some might say that guys like Jordan lit it up in the regular season, then kicked it into hyperdrive in the playoffs, which if you look at the stats seems to be true. But Jordan got a LOT of EXTREMELY friendly calls in the playoffs. Any complaints people have about officiating.... when you watch Jordan's Bulls play... man... it's like the officials were wearing Bulls uniforms.

If LBJ got that kind of treatment (not to say he doesn't get friendly calls, just not the kind Jordan got), his numbers would be even better. I'm rambling a little bit... sorry.

Bottom line, I feel like whether it is the regular season or playoffs, LBJ puts it out there every night. He doesn't get better in the post season, because he's always at his best. But what is even more amazing is that even when he is at his 'average' self, he is still dominating other players at the highest level of the game.

He has the inferior team. No question. It is an uphill battle for this roster to win the series. But if Klay, Draymond, or Curry were putting up LBJ's numbers, people would be drooling over it. When LBJ does it.... it's like he's just set the bar so high for himself that he needs to do even more.

I hate how the dude flops, he needs to work on his long game (apparently it stayed in Miami), and he doesn't have a quick first step like some elite wings do, but he is such a fierce defender, and a willing passer, and strong rebounder, and he generally knows his limitation on offense..... he carries an impressive load.


So yes, no transcendent games, but as you say, it is amazing how this guy's base standard is so high. Anybody else puts up these kind of numbers in the post season, and in the finals especially, and in back-to-back seasons more so, people would be going nuts.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-10-2016, 11:49 PM
The funny thing is he isn't playing great either lol. I don't want to say bad but he certainly doesn't look like a superstar out there.

Bostonjorge
06-10-2016, 11:58 PM
He will easily lead in turnovers that's for sure

YAALREADYKNO
06-11-2016, 12:08 AM
Winnable game for the Cavs. Tired of everyone saying he's more magic than Michael but even at times magic knew when to take over games. The Cavs led by Kyrie tonight put them in a position to win and there best player came up short plain and simple

More-Than-Most
06-11-2016, 12:09 AM
He will easily lead in turnovers that's for sure

along with defense/rebounding/assists/PPG and so on down the list... I think they will take it number 3

Raps18-19 Champ
06-11-2016, 12:14 AM
Winnable game for the Cavs. Tired of everyone saying he's more magic than Michael but even at times magic knew when to take over games. The Cavs led by Kyrie tonight put them in a position to win and there best player came up short plain and simple

I never got this logic TBH. Lebron hasn't been a particularly good shooter this series (or this season really). There's no benefit for him to try and take over if he's going to fail at it.

The notion that a great player MUST take over a game is overrated.

LA_Raiders
06-11-2016, 01:02 AM
Padding stats doesn't count if he loses.

Chronz
06-11-2016, 01:04 AM
Winnable game for the Cavs. Tired of everyone saying he's more magic than Michael but even at times magic knew when to take over games. The Cavs led by Kyrie tonight put them in a position to win and there best player came up short plain and simple

At the same stage in their careers, magic was actually even more scared to shoot in his last Finals. Iirc he was something like 0 for 15 on wide open jumpers but he played in the fast break, 1v1 era so it didn't look as drastic

lamzoka
06-11-2016, 01:09 AM
LeBron is the king of stat padding

Bigbadmoffo
06-11-2016, 01:40 AM
If stats where everything Lebron would be the greatest.

bucketss
06-11-2016, 02:06 AM
its impressive. people just hate because hes not hitting jordan like shots on elite defense, thats just not his game you can't be great at everything.

Chronz
06-11-2016, 02:17 AM
If stats where everything Lebron would be the greatest.
Its actually jordan.

#postgame

L8kers4life
06-11-2016, 02:30 AM
I hear people say he has to 'take it to the next level'. I'll gladly admit there are flaws in his game (I am not a LBJ fan per se), but I think it is to his credit that he puts it all out on the floor every night. Some might say that guys like Jordan lit it up in the regular season, then kicked it into hyperdrive in the playoffs, which if you look at the stats seems to be true. But Jordan got a LOT of EXTREMELY friendly calls in the playoffs. Any complaints people have about officiating.... when you watch Jordan's Bulls play... man... it's like the officials were wearing Bulls uniforms.

If LBJ got that kind of treatment (not to say he doesn't get friendly calls, just not the kind Jordan got), his numbers would be even better. I'm rambling a little bit... sorry.

Bottom line, I feel like whether it is the regular season or playoffs, LBJ puts it out there every night. He doesn't get better in the post season, because he's always at his best. But what is even more amazing is that even when he is at his 'average' self, he is still dominating other players at the highest level of the game.

He has the inferior team. No question. It is an uphill battle for this roster to win the series. But if Klay, Draymond, or Curry were putting up LBJ's numbers, people would be drooling over it. When LBJ does it.... it's like he's just set the bar so high for himself that he needs to do even more.

I hate how the dude flops, he needs to work on his long game (apparently it stayed in Miami), and he doesn't have a quick first step like some elite wings do, but he is such a fierce defender, and a willing passer, and strong rebounder, and he generally knows his limitation on offense..... he carries an impressive load.


So yes, no transcendent games, but as you say, it is amazing how this guy's base standard is so high. Anybody else puts up these kind of numbers in the post season, and in the finals especially, and in back-to-back seasons more so, people would be going nuts.



Great post, but this year he has plenty of talent, if LeBron had played great in game 1 and 2 the cavs would be up with how bad Steph and klay played. but every time he has a chance to make History in the finals, like tonight, the game was there for him to take it and he shrinks. His Numbers are becoming hollow in some ways because his style is not conducive to team ball and ball movement. For example, LeBron struggled big time in the first a half and the team was up by 6, because the ball was moving and everyone was involved. second half kyrie and LeBron go into Iso mode and they lose big time second half. He shrinks in big moments, stat stuffer and one of the greatest of all time, but he is too passive when his team needs him the most. He literally scored 8 points in the final minute and a half tonight with the game out of reach, otherwise his stat line would look worse.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-11-2016, 03:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvUL28Skt6E

stat stuffer

Tony_Starks
06-11-2016, 05:16 AM
Those stats are kindof misleading.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's choking or even playing badly but he is FAR from dominating.

To the extent that I am beginning to wonder have we seen the last of him dominating a Finals.

The only time I really saw some fire in him is when Draymond got him riled up, by then it was too late.

SirSkyHook
06-11-2016, 05:42 AM
I never got this logic TBH. Lebron hasn't been a particularly good shooter this series (or this season really). There's no benefit for him to try and take over if he's going to fail at it.

The notion that a great player MUST take over a game is overrated.

This logic only applies to Lebron James. That wasn't the case for Jordan, Kobe, Magic, or Wade. Matter of fact regardless of how well Kobe played in the 2010 finals, he gets killed for game 7. One has to ask why are we lowering the bar of greatness for Lebron?...... If the goal is winning than greatness should be determined by it.

Charles Barkley had great stats but isn't compared to Jordan because Jordan was a great winner. Lebron left to team up with two other stars to win two rings. With that team he should have gotten four! oh wait his competition was too great AGAIN, his teammates suck AGAIN, but his stats were nice though.Well while Lebron is out there doing him his team is losing.... but its cool though because its a team game, and stats show the true value of a player not rings.What!?!? I thought he was the ultimate teammate? Instead I see him stat padding in the not so strong Eastern Conference.

SirSkyHook
06-11-2016, 05:56 AM
I never got this logic TBH. Lebron hasn't been a particularly good shooter this series (or this season really). There's no benefit for him to try and take over if he's going to fail at it.

The notion that a great player MUST take over a game is overrated.

Also Magic took over games with his assits, rebounding and ability to force his teams pace on the oppositions making them uncomfortable, and he took advantage of their mistakes. Forcing your pace is vital in the playoffs, and I dont see Lebron doing that.

bledrules
06-11-2016, 06:35 AM
Means nothing if you lose

basketfan4life
06-11-2016, 06:45 AM
for all i know, Kyrie wasthe better cav the last 2 games.

nastynice
06-11-2016, 07:07 AM
That's pretty impressive. It's so odd why it doesn't translate into wins, he's got a very solid squad around him, he's been playing good, but I guess like people said, watching the games he doesn't make those "it" plays. He did in game 3, he had a great 3rd quarter which staved off multiple golden state attempts at making a run.

He needs to do a better job keeping his guys in rhythm, he needs to drive to the lane and act according to the defense, today he seemed to have gotten to good spots on the floor for some good shot attempts, but it's like at the sight of the slightest resistance he would just think pass

YAALREADYKNO
06-11-2016, 08:08 AM
I never got this logic TBH. Lebron hasn't been a particularly good shooter this series (or this season really). There's no benefit for him to try and take over if he's going to fail at it.

The notion that a great player MUST take over a game is overrated.

Nobody could stop Lebron if he really put his mind to it. By the time he started to be aggressive the game was pretty much over

NYKalltheway
06-11-2016, 09:29 AM
This logic only applies to Lebron James. That wasn't the case for Jordan, Kobe, Magic, or Wade. Matter of fact regardless of how well Kobe played in the 2010 finals, he gets killed for game 7. One has to ask why are we lowering the bar of greatness for Lebron?...... If the goal is winning than greatness should be determined by it.

Charles Barkley had great stats but isn't compared to Jordan because Jordan was a great winner. Lebron left to team up with two other stars to win two rings. With that team he should have gotten four! oh wait his competition was too great AGAIN, his teammates suck AGAIN, but his stats were nice though.Well while Lebron is out there doing him his team is losing.... but its cool though because its a team game, and stats show the true value of a player not rings.What!?!? I thought he was the ultimate teammate? Instead I see him stat padding in the not so strong Eastern Conference.

Pretty accurate description of the situation.

bucketss
06-11-2016, 11:37 AM
This logic only applies to Lebron James. That wasn't the case for Jordan, Kobe, Magic, or Wade. Matter of fact regardless of how well Kobe played in the 2010 finals, he gets killed for game 7. One has to ask why are we lowering the bar of greatness for Lebron?...... If the goal is winning than greatness should be determined by it.

Charles Barkley had great stats but isn't compared to Jordan because Jordan was a great winner. Lebron left to team up with two other stars to win two rings. With that team he should have gotten four! oh wait his competition was too great AGAIN, his teammates suck AGAIN, but his stats were nice though.Well while Lebron is out there doing him his team is losing.... but its cool though because its a team game, and stats show the true value of a player not rings.What!?!? I thought he was the ultimate teammate? Instead I see him stat padding in the not so strong Eastern Conference.

you guys gotta stop being biased, wade on one knee and the heat should have beat the 2014 spurs?. lebron is a two time nba champion you can't take that away from him.

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 12:43 PM
Those stats are kindof misleading.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's choking or even playing badly but he is FAR from dominating.

To the extent that I am beginning to wonder have we seen the last of him dominating a Finals.

The only time I really saw some fire in him is when Draymond got him riled up, by then it was too late.

I think we are done seeing him as the best player at this point, he can't take over quite like he used to. I agree he hasn't been dominating enough this series outside of game 3. Last game it looked like his shot was back off again, Iggy was playing good D, and he just said ok Kyrie you do it too often. His performance is kinda like Durants last series in that you are just left a little disappointed.

No one has really taken over this series individually though. Kyrie had a couple good games and bad ones, Curry only had this one amazing game and another solid one, Klay has been a little off etc. The key is the number of players on GS who have played well like Iggy/Barnes/Livingston/Barbosa on top of their big 3. GS is certainly playing a better team game than the Cavs, probably as expected.

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2016, 01:02 PM
Stats don't mean shyt if you're down 1-3 in the series.

Wins are the only stat that matters in the Finals.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-11-2016, 01:06 PM
This logic only applies to Lebron James. That wasn't the case for Jordan, Kobe, Magic, or Wade. Matter of fact regardless of how well Kobe played in the 2010 finals, he gets killed for game 7. One has to ask why are we lowering the bar of greatness for Lebron?...... If the goal is winning than greatness should be determined by it.

Charles Barkley had great stats but isn't compared to Jordan because Jordan was a great winner. Lebron left to team up with two other stars to win two rings. With that team he should have gotten four! oh wait his competition was too great AGAIN, his teammates suck AGAIN, but his stats were nice though.Well while Lebron is out there doing him his team is losing.... but its cool though because its a team game, and stats show the true value of a player not rings.What!?!? I thought he was the ultimate teammate? Instead I see him stat padding in the not so strong Eastern Conference.

You missed my point. My point was that there isnt a random switch for a player to take over. You basicially just said Lebron should have willed their team to win. But you say Kryie carried the team since he scored more points (despite him playing so selfish basketball).

Lebrin wasnt dominant but if hes making the best decisions he can in the game and contributing despite adversity (like how Kobe was a monster on the boards in game 7), "taking over" is overrated.

Not sure what anything else had to do with my post but sure.

ghettosean
06-11-2016, 01:06 PM
I mean it's impressive but doesn't mean anything if you don't win... My opinion

Just to add when you look at his stats last night in the 4th quarter it looks like he was doing his part but he was really getting garbage time baskets. Stats like this don't mean anything when you lose IMO.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-11-2016, 01:13 PM
Also Magic took over games with his assits, rebounding and ability to force his teams pace on the oppositions making them uncomfortable, and he took advantage of their mistakes. Forcing your pace is vital in the playoffs, and I dont see Lebron doing that.

Do you expect him to do that every game? Because those guys didn't either.

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 01:19 PM
I mean it's impressive but doesn't mean anything if you don't win... My opinion

Just to add when you look at his stats last night in the 4th quarter it looks like he was doing his part but he was really getting garbage time baskets. Stats like this don't mean anything when you lose IMO.

Winning/Losing doesn't change his performance imo, I think people really gotta learn it's a team game.

With that said your second point stands. This year the stats aren't as impressive because of the circumstances and context behind them. He hasn't sucked but he also hasn't taken over really outside of game 3. Last year even though they lost I felt his performance was pretty incredible.

blahblahyoutoo
06-11-2016, 01:21 PM
he also leads all teams in saying "whatever the case may be" during interviews.

ghettosean
06-11-2016, 01:26 PM
I mean it's impressive but doesn't mean anything if you don't win... My opinion

Just to add when you look at his stats last night in the 4th quarter it looks like he was doing his part but he was really getting garbage time baskets. Stats like this don't mean anything when you lose IMO.

Winning/Losing doesn't change his performance imo, I think people really gotta learn it's a team game.

With that said your second point stands. This year the stats aren't as impressive because of the circumstances and context behind them. He hasn't sucked but he also hasn't taken over really outside of game 3. Last year even though they lost I felt his performance was pretty incredible.

I agree somewhat but I also think there is a such thing as empty stats. It still shows he was dominant for his team and all but without the wins to back up there value I don't find it to meaningful. If I'm a Cavs fan or Lebron I'm not taking any pleasure in this accomplishment.

Game 3 was pretty crazy though in a blowout the stats mean more to me in a game like that then all the losses.

mngopher35
06-11-2016, 01:31 PM
I agree somewhat but I also think there is a such thing as empty stats. It still shows he was dominant for his team and all but without the wins to back up there value I don't find it to meaningful. If I'm a Cavs fan or Lebron I'm not taking any pleasure in this accomplishment.

Game 3 was pretty crazy though in a blowout the stats mean more to me in a game like that then all the losses.

I agree about empty stats which is why I pointed out this year is a little different. I think there were some empty stats last night for sure. Empty stats are not just because your team loses though, that is kinda ridiculous honestly.

Scoots
06-11-2016, 01:36 PM
Not that this is the case with LeBron ... but it's interesting that we have no stat yet to track stats accrued when down big in games lost. I've seen a few games where Cousins did nothing to help his team and they fell way behind but he keeps playing against the deep bench and ends up with 40 points in a loss by 15 points where 25 of the points came against backups when way behind.

It seems to me LeBron is pressing a bit more than I've ever seen him. Like he's a little desperate.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2016, 01:42 PM
I have come to an epiphany. I used to bag on LeBron because he played in the east. I still don't like the fact that people give him credit for 6 straight finals appearances and 7 total as if he did it on his own, but site it's a team game once they lose in the finals to throw the blame at his teammates. How does he take all the credit for the success and all of a sudden its a team game when they lose?

Anyways, The Epiphany is that I am actually happy that he is in the East. Could you imagine he moved to a West team next year? There would be absolutely no reason to watch any Eastern Conference playoff games or the finals. We could have had Toronto versus Charlotte this year for ecf . I would not have spent one minute watching the finals. He has at least saved the basketball season until late June for the past 6 years. For that I am grateful to him.

bucketss
06-11-2016, 02:08 PM
I have come to an epiphany. I used to bag on LeBron because he played in the east. I still don't like the fact that people give him credit for 6 straight finals appearances and 7 total as if he did it on his own, but site it's a team game once they lose in the finals to throw the blame at his teammates. How does he take all the credit for the success and all of a sudden its a team game when they lose?

Anyways, The Epiphany is that I am actually happy that he is in the East. Could you imagine he moved to a West team next year? There would be absolutely no reason to watch any Eastern Conference playoff games or the finals. We could have had Toronto versus Charlotte this year for ecf . I would not have spent one minute watching the finals. He has at least saved the basketball season until late June for the past 6 years. For that I am grateful to him.

that would have been awesome, even with lebron the ecf ratings were the lowest since pacers vs pistons snore fest where they struggled to score 60 points. i think people would rather watch competitive basketball than lebron sweeping his way to the finals.

numba1CHANGsta
06-11-2016, 02:22 PM
With a 3-8 Finals record in those 2 years, 2-5 overall in the Finals, stats don't mean crap

Crackadalic
06-12-2016, 01:04 AM
I'm so tired of hearing he doesn't have enough talent. If they was facing okc they probably have a better chance. GS is just the teams kryptonite.

Lebron just doesn't make those key plays that he needs to make in crucial times

More-Than-Most
06-12-2016, 01:19 AM
I'm so tired of hearing he doesn't have enough talent. If they was facing okc they probably have a better chance. GS is just the teams kryptonite.

Lebron just doesn't make those key plays that he needs to make in crucial times

curry hasnt either in the last 2 finals and they are about to be back to back champs.... Kobe didnt either when Horry was hitting game winning shots... But again I guess it only counts when its lebron.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2016, 01:26 AM
Guys, Kyrie Irving is now leading the NBA Finals in PPG.

Jamiecballer
06-12-2016, 10:49 AM
He's got the most complete team oriented game the league's ever seen. And yet as others have mentioned he's not even playing his best.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

ewing
06-12-2016, 11:18 AM
He's got the most complete team oriented game the league's ever seen. And yet as others have mentioned he's not even playing his best.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

he game isn't complete at all. At least not right now. He is his team primary ball handler on the perimiter and he cant shoot a 15 foot jump shot. that is a monterous hole. the Cavs offense has sucked this series save one game. the Warrior D deserves credit as well but Bron isn't exactly making it hard on them.

Tony_Starks
06-12-2016, 11:44 AM
I think we are done seeing him as the best player at this point, he can't take over quite like he used to. I agree he hasn't been dominating enough this series outside of game 3. Last game it looked like his shot was back off again, Iggy was playing good D, and he just said ok Kyrie you do it too often. His performance is kinda like Durants last series in that you are just left a little disappointed.

No one has really taken over this series individually though. Kyrie had a couple good games and bad ones, Curry only had this one amazing game and another solid one, Klay has been a little off etc. The key is the number of players on GS who have played well like Iggy/Barnes/Livingston/Barbosa on top of their big 3. GS is certainly playing a better team game than the Cavs, probably as expected.


I'm still intrigued and hesitant to count him out though. I don't think we can overstate how big this game is for him.

As great as he is one of the biggest things I hold against him is I've seen him quit several times during his career. Basically take the posture like "we can't win" and give up during a game. Saw it against Boston, saw it against the Spurs, saw it in this series. That's not cool. He's been apart of some of the biggest blowouts in Finals history with not 1 but 3 different teams now.

If he loses but he goes down swinging until the end, no shame at all. The best team won. But he has to empty the clip in game 5.

I know comparisons are unfair but I think it's time for a Kobe/MJ game from him. Like give me the ball, get outta my way, I'm going for 50...type game. Kyrie has shown he's going to get his regardless and the rest of the guys just have to get in where they fit in.

Is he still capable of that? We shall see.