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valade16
06-08-2016, 10:09 AM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll. (NOTE: votes by accounts with less than 100 votes will not count)

(1) La Habra Showtime

PG: Chauncey Billups - Kyrie Irving
SG: Kobe Bryant - Gail Goodrich
SF: Peja Stojakovic - Gerald Wallace
PF: Elton Brand - Paul Millsap
C: Shaquille O'Neal - Bill Cartwright

vs.

(3) Manson Family Serial Killers

PG: Deron Williams - Paul Westphal
SG: Kawhi Leonard - Jason Richardson
SF: Scottie Pippen - Sean Elliott
PF: Rasheed Wallace - Antonio McDyess
C: Patrick Ewing - Tyson Chandler

NYKalltheway
06-08-2016, 10:20 AM
Manson in 7.

roshan3ai
06-08-2016, 10:22 AM
Leaning Habra, although having Kawhi and Pippen to guard Kobe could be lethal. I just don't think Ewing's stopping prime Shaq though. Does Deron guard Chauncey?

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:03 AM
Congratulations to La Habra. He built himself one awesome team with loads of talent.

Fortunately, matchups, fit, and talent are 3 of the most important variables in determining the superior team. It’s not just player A is greater than player B. The most important point I want to hit home is that while Player A may have a superior/greater career, Player B got the better of them in a head-to-head matchup.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:06 AM
Deron Williams vs Chauncey Billups

Williams’ and Billups’ 3 year peak actually overlaps. While Billups is clearly older, their peaks (07-08, 08-09, 09-10) were their best years of basketball.

In 16 regular season games:

Williams: FG% 46.1, 35.1% 3P%, REB 2.9, AST 9.0, 19.6 PTS
C Billups: FG% 36.9, 35.8% 3P%, REB 3.2, AST 4.5, 17.7 PTS

If you go through and look at the games only in their 3 year primes, they favor Williams even more than their career head-to-head numbers.

Postseason Numbers (both players are in prime)

Williams: FG% 49.4, 48.1% 3P%, REB 2.7, AST 11.2, 25.8 PTS
C Billups: FG% 44.6, 35.5% 3P%, REB 2.3, AST 6.3, 20.3 PTS

Here is where Williams separates himself from Billups even more, granted it’s fewer games than the regular season. While Billups is a historic great defender at PG, he was unable to defend Williams his entire career in the regular season and post season. 25+ poing per game on excellent efficiency is not exactly stellar defense on Billups' part. In their head-to-head, neither player are elite rebounders, Williams is the better play maker/passer, scorer, 3 point shooter, and had better efficiency. Billups has the better career, but head-to-head, the data shows Williams got the best of Billups.

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 11:16 AM
Manson doesn't match up terribly here. By alternating Pippen and Leonard on Kobe, it's hard for me to picture the latter having a really productive series. Despite his perimeter inconsistencies, Wallace has range you have to respect. Drawing Brand away from the basket opens the lane up for movement in pick and rolls between Williams and Ewing/Chandler. I feel like Shaq and Billups would need to have a very productive series for La Habra. I won't vote though until I see some arguments.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:21 AM
Kobe Bryant vs Scottie Pippen

Kobe Bryant will have the best perimeter defender in NBA history cloaked on him for the majority of the game. It doesn’t stop there though, when Pippen is resting, Kobe gets guarded by the 2nd best perimeter defender, 2x DPOY, Kawhi Leonard. Kobe will require a heck of a lot more shots to get his points. The more shots he takes, the better for the Manson Family.

I assume Kobe will be put on Kawhi on defense. Granted Kobe has several defensive team selections, I think it’s well established that he has historically been overrated on that end of the floor and made those teams by name value alone. Kawhi increases his scoring output and shooting efficiency in the playoffs. Kobe is have to chase Kawhi around the court or get bullied by Pippen, depending on where Kobe is placed.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:24 AM
Leaning Habra, although having Kawhi and Pippen to guard Kobe could be lethal. I just don't think Ewing's stopping prime Shaq though. Does Deron guard Chauncey?


Manson doesn't match up terribly here. By alternating Pippen and Leonard on Kobe, it's hard for me to picture the latter having a really productive series. Despite his perimeter inconsistencies, Wallace has range you have to respect. Drawing Brand away from the basket opens the lane up for movement in pick and rolls between Williams and Ewing/Chandler. I feel like Shaq and Billups would need to have a very productive series for La Habra. I won't vote though until I see some arguments.

How do you guys feel about Peja on Pippen? or Peja on Kawhi?

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:31 AM
Kawhi Leonard vs Peja Stojakovic

Kawhi is going to give Peja the respect he deserves. Having a 7’3 wingspan gives Kawhi the ability to defend taller players. Peja will take on a role as a floor spacer, but Kawhi won’t allow for that to happen. The speed/quickness and defensive instincts Kawhi has will limit Peja’s impact on the game as a floor spacer (which he clearly needs having Brand/Shaq in the post). Also, as mentioned previously, Kawhi will also be used defensively on Kobe Bryant. So if Kawhi is taking a shift on Kobe, Pippen will be abusing Peja.

Scottie Pippen will have a field day with Peja. Peja is too slow to stay in front of him. He more than likely either let Pippen blow by him or get into foul trouble trying not to let Pippen blow by him (or both). The Manson Family plans to exploit Peja’s weakness throughout the game as this is not something Peja could “adjust” to.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:46 AM
Rasheed Wallace vs Elton Brand

Rasheed Wallace will offer the Manson Family exactly what they need to attack La Habra on offense. Rasheed was a 40% 3 point shooter in his playoff prime. His role is to open the floor up to and allow for Williams, Kawhi, and Pippen to attack the rim. Neutralizing Brands defense is key. Unlike La Habra, they don’t have the spacing in the appropriate areas to allow Shaq to go to work. There will also be spurts where Sheed is at C, causing Shaq to move out to the perimeter and defend. Good luck with that.

Rasheed Wallace was a great defender. His defensive assignment just got a lot easier seeing as Brand will more than likely be the 4th option, but more importantly, Brand will be around the clogged paint with Shaq. This allows Wallace to help Ewing on defense against Shaq when needed.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:50 AM
I'm going to assume La Habra puts Peja on Kawhi and vote for them. I also think Manson should not put Sheed at C at all vs. Shaq. "causing Shaq to move out to the perimeter and defend. Good luck with that." More like good luck stopping Shaq in the post where he would feast on a frontcourt of Sheed and Dice. Yea I'm sure La Habra is real worried Sheed is going to knock them out of the playoffs bc of Wallace raining 3's on Shaq's head. :pity:

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 12:30 PM
How do you guys feel about Peja on Pippen? or Peja on Kawhi?

Peja defending anything other than a stationary bucket isn't a recipe for anything good if that's what you're asking.


Rasheed Wallace vs Elton Brand

Rasheed Wallace will offer the Manson Family exactly what they need to attack La Habra on offense. Rasheed was a 40% 3 point shooter in his playoff prime. His role is to open the floor up to and allow for Williams, Kawhi, and Pippen to attack the rim. Neutralizing Brands defense is key. Unlike La Habra, they don’t have the spacing in the appropriate areas to allow Shaq to go to work. There will also be spurts where Sheed is at C, causing Shaq to move out to the perimeter and defend. Good luck with that.

Rasheed Wallace was a great defender. His defensive assignment just got a lot easier seeing as Brand will more than likely be the 4th option, but more importantly, Brand will be around the clogged paint with Shaq. This allows Wallace to help Ewing on defense against Shaq when needed.

Brand had a midrange jumpshot and he wasn't bad at making them either. Also trying to argue that Wallace at center would drag Shaq out to defend him is dependent upon who you have at power forward. McDyess? Shaq would just guard him. And even if you go small with Pippen or someone at the four, I'd rather have prime Shaq working on a smaller big inside than a smaller big stretching Shaq out to the perimeter. Higher percentage shots in favor of Shaq.

Specifically if that smaller big is Wallace at center, I would just dare him to make threes with soft closes rather than sacrifice lane space for penetration and/or kicks. Yeah he had one postseason where he shot 40% on a decent sample size from deep. The rest of them he's hovering around the mid to low thirties. Dragging an elite PnR defender like Brand away from the rim with Wallace is one thing. La Habra would be right to trust Brand's mobility to keep Sheed honest. No he's not a lights out perimeter shooter but no need to get silly with defending him either. But trying to use him to drag Shaq away from the rim? Again, I'd just take my chances in that case. Especially since a Wallace/Pippen or Wallace/McDyess or Wallace/anyone frontcourt is yielding a lot of size and girth to La Habra's frontcourt.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 12:32 PM
Patrick Ewing vs Shaquille O’Neal

Patrick Ewing actually matched up a lot better against Shaq than he did Olajuwon. Since they really played in different eras, let’s look at their head-to-head numbers when Ewing was at the end of his prime (he is 9 years older than Shaq).

Regular Season Head-to-Head (Their First 8 Games, 1992-1994)

Ewing: FG: 98/200 = 49.0%,
O’Neal: FG: 81/164 = 49.3%

Ewing: FT: 35/46 = 76.0%
O’Neal: FT: 37/77 = 48.0%

Ewing: REB: 100/8 = 12.5 per game
O’Neal: REB: 109/8 = 13.6 per game

Ewing: Points: 232/8 = 29.0 per game
O’Neal: Points: 199/8 = 24.9 per game

Keep in mind, this was a 30+ year old Ewing going against Shaq. Of course Shaq has the better career. Having Penny/Kobe/Wade is a hell of a lot better than having John “2 for 18” Starks. But looking at their first 8 games, an older Ewing put up better numbers than Shaq.

The fact of the matter is, in their first 8 games, Ewing guarded Shaq, containing him to a TS% of .503. I would think if Manson Family had the prime Ewing instead of the 30+ year old Ewing, he, along with Sheed and Tyson, Shaq would be limited even more than he was in their first 8 games.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 12:42 PM
Peja defending anything other than a stationary bucket isn't a recipe for anything good if that's what you're asking.



Brand had a midrange jumpshot and he wasn't bad at making them either. Also trying to argue that Wallace at center would drag Shaq out to defend him is dependent upon who you have at power forward. McDyess? Shaq would just guard him. And even if you go small with Pippen or someone at the four, I'd rather have prime Shaq working on a smaller big inside than a smaller big stretching Shaq out to the perimeter. Higher percentage shots in favor of Shaq.

Specifically if that smaller big is Wallace at center, I would just dare him to make threes with soft closes rather than sacrifice lane space for penetration and/or kicks. Yeah he had one postseason where he shot 40% on a decent sample size from deep. The rest of them he's hovering around the mid to low thirties. Dragging an elite PnR defender like Brand away from the rim with Wallace is one thing. La Habra would be right to trust Brand's mobility to keep Sheed honest. No he's not a lights out perimeter shooter but no need to get silly with defending him either. But trying to use him to drag Shaq away from the rim? Again, I'd just take my chances in that case. Especially since a Wallace/Pippen or Wallace/McDyess or Wallace/anyone frontcourt is yielding a lot of size and girth to La Habra's frontcourt.

I didn't emphasize this because Ewing will be playing a ridiculous amount of minutes at C. For a few minutes a game, to give Ewing a break, I certainly think it's a viable option depending on who La Habra has on the floor.

From Brand's 3 year prime at 00-01, 01-02, 02-03, he shot 42.2% from 3-10 feet, and 40.9% from 10-16 feet.

If Brand was shooting those against Sheed, that isn't exactly a good thing nor would it entice Sheed to stay out of the paint.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 12:46 PM
I'm going to assume La Habra puts Peja on Kawhi and vote for them. I also think Manson should not put Sheed at C at all vs. Shaq. "causing Shaq to move out to the perimeter and defend. Good luck with that." More like good luck stopping Shaq in the post where he would feast on a frontcourt of Sheed and Dice. Yea I'm sure La Habra is real worried Sheed is going to knock them out of the playoffs bc of Wallace raining 3's on Shaq's head. :pity:

For a few minutes a game, it's worth trying out at least once. If it wasn't a good matchup, the Manson Family doesn't have to continue. If it works like a charm, then of course they use it. Ewing will be playing a ridiculous amount of minutes, as Shaq and Ewing did anyway.

Also, why assume he puts Peja on Kawhi and vote? He hasn't even said anything. lol Not to mention, Kobe would get physically drained having to guard the physical Pippen.

roshan3ai
06-08-2016, 01:37 PM
Patrick Ewing vs Shaquille O’Neal

Patrick Ewing actually matched up a lot better against Shaq than he did Olajuwon. Since they really played in different eras, let’s look at their head-to-head numbers when Ewing was at the end of his prime (he is 9 years older than Shaq).

Regular Season Head-to-Head (Their First 8 Games, 1992-1994)

Ewing: FG: 98/200 = 49.0%,
O’Neal: FG: 81/164 = 49.3%

Ewing: FT: 35/46 = 76.0%
O’Neal: FT: 37/77 = 48.0%

Ewing: REB: 100/8 = 12.5 per game
O’Neal: REB: 109/8 = 13.6 per game

Ewing: Points: 232/8 = 29.0 per game
O’Neal: Points: 199/8 = 24.9 per game

Keep in mind, this was a 30+ year old Ewing going against Shaq. Of course Shaq has the better career. Having Penny/Kobe/Wade is a hell of a lot better than having John “2 for 18” Starks. But looking at their first 8 games, an older Ewing put up better numbers than Shaq.

The fact of the matter is, in their first 8 games, Ewing guarded Shaq, containing him to a TS% of .503. I would think if Manson Family had the prime Ewing instead of the 30+ year old Ewing, he, along with Sheed and Tyson, Shaq would be limited even more than he was in their first 8 games.

This is such ********. You're fine using Shaq''s rookie year and then set an arbitrary year, 1994, to stop counting their stats. Ewing was still an all-star until 1997. In 1994-1995, the year after Ewing's Finals appearance, how'd Shaq fare against Ewing?

Shaq: 41 Pts | 17-26 FGM-FGA | 17 Rbs
Ewing: 24 Pts | 11-17 FGM-FGA | TWO REBOUNDS

Shaq: 38 Pts | 16-23 FGM-FGA | 10 Rbs
Ewing: 15 Pts | 7-19 FGM-FGA | 5 Rbs

Shaq: 41 Pts | 17-29 FGM-FGA | 15 Rbs
Ewing: 38 Pts | 15-32 FGM-FGA | 13 Rbs

Shaq: 41 Pts | 16-28 FGM-FGA | 10 Rbs
Ewing: 32 Pts | 13-28 FGM-FGA | 15 Rbs


Ewing guarded Shaq containing him to a TS% of 62.9%.


I'm fine using head to head matchups, but this was egregious.

roshan3ai
06-08-2016, 01:42 PM
Also, your stats are from when Ewing was "30+." He was 30-32, definitely still in his prime. Maybe not his prime 5 years, but he's still in his prime until maybe 1997. FFS he made the All-NBA Second Team in 1997. To not consider that part of his prime is a joke.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 01:50 PM
This is such ********. You're fine using Shaq''s rookie year and then set an arbitrary year, 1994, to stop counting their stats. Ewing was still an all-star until 1997. In 1994-1995, the year after Ewing's Finals appearance, how'd Shaq fare against Ewing?

I'm fine using head to head matchups, but this was egregious.

Centers, especially ones that had some mileage, have differing primes than other players. It wasn't "arbitrary", I just wanted to use whatever prime numbers Ewing had against Shaq. Shaq, offensively, didn't change noticeably (if at all) from his first few season in comparison to his "prime" offensive seasons (whenever that is, he was consistently dominant).

I would much rather use prime Ewing numbers against prime Shaq numbers, but they played in different eras. I thought this was fair, using end of prime Ewing (not the same as prime) and Shaq who was the same on offense. I will be the first to say Shaq did change his game, but it was on the defensive end, not offense.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 01:53 PM
Also, your stats are from when Ewing was "30+." He was 30-32, definitely still in his prime. Maybe not his prime 5 years, but he's still in his prime until maybe 1997. FFS he made the All-NBA Second Team in 1997. To not consider that part of his prime is a joke.

Kareem made the all star team in 1987, 1988, 1989. He had longevity. So we hold it against the all time greats for having longevity? Sure Ewing was still productive in 1997, but he was no way shape or form the same player he was in his prime, or even at the end of his prime. Especially when you consider injuries.

It would be insane to argue Kareem's 3 year prime in 87, 88, and 89 likewise if there was a head to head matchup. That's an even bigger joke. It's somehow better had Kareem NOT made the All Star team in 87, 88, and 89 so that people will actually realize he had dropped in production in comparison to his prime?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:03 PM
Congratulations to Manson Family on making it to the Coonference Finals.

Why I will win:

Overalll, I have the 2 best players in the series. While Kobe will be guarded by Pippen/Kawhi MF still has no answer to the most dominant player in this series, Shaq.
As good as Ewing was, Shaq just straight up dominated him. MF said they'd even have Rasheed on Shaq at times, even better, that allows Shaq to feast even more.

There's no denying MFs defense is legit, fortunately their defensive threats are guarding my #2 option, not Shaq. The Ewing/Sheed/Chandler trio that MF used last series will not be a factor here, simply put, MF is built around Pippen/Kawhi and that makes life easy for Shaq.

Also, while Deron Williams did put up good shooting numbers vs Billups he still had the exact same PPS as Billups.

As for Kobe, he can dominate in more ways than just one, he doesn't just have to score. Kobe and Billups will be my primary play makers feeding Shaq as much as possible, letting him get his. Lets not forget that Kobes assist/turnover ratio was great during his Kobe/Shaq days. Having Kobe play the Kobe Nash role this series isn't a bad thing, if anything that's the best Kobe for a Shaq led team with other floor spacers in Billups, Peja and Brand.


Kobe vs Pippen/Kawhi:

Kobe and Pippen actually went H2H 38 times throughout their career. The regular season H2H resulted in a record of 13-8 in favor of Kobe. While playoff H2H resulted in 13-4, also in favor of Kobe. That's a combined 26-12 Record vs Scottie Pippen. In the regular season H2H matchups Kobe was able to shot 46% From the field, that's not exactly shutting kobe down.. And I would say 21 games is a solid sample size.

Kobe vs Kawhi is something we only saw 3 times. That's how many times we saw that matchup prior to Kobe's devastating achilles injury. This also came at a point where Kawhi was far too young but Kobe was still able to ahoot 29/55 in those 3 games. Although admittedly, a 3 game sample size with a green Kawhi isn't fair.


Summary:

La Habra won't be doing any real cross matching on MF. Billups will be on Deron, Kobe on Pippen, Peja on Kawhi, BBrand on Rasheed, and Shaq on Ewing. I have 2 great playmakers to feed Shaq/Brand. I will be feasting on the boards with Shaq/Brand. Rasheed is MFs biggest matchup problem for most other teams, not vs Brand. I'll finally be able to incorporate Brand and cause even more problems for MF. While he doesnt space the floor all the way to the 3 point line like sheed, he was still a threat from mid range, a legit defender, and a superior scorer and rebounder to sheed. MFs biggest advantage is having their wings shut down ours, but how in the hell will they even slow down our front court?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:05 PM
Will post more later and provide links if needed. Had to post that **** on my phone and took FOREVER! :laugh:

roshan3ai
06-08-2016, 02:05 PM
Centers, especially ones that had some mileage, have differing primes than other players. It wasn't "arbitrary", I just wanted to use whatever prime numbers Ewing had against Shaq. Shaq, offensively, didn't change noticeably (if at all) from his first few season in comparison to his "prime" offensive seasons (whenever that is, he was consistently dominant).

I would much rather use prime Ewing numbers against prime Shaq numbers, but they played in different eras. I thought this was fair, using end of prime Ewing (not the same as prime) and Shaq who was the same on offense. I will be the first to say Shaq did change his game, but it was on the defensive end, not offense.

Shaq's team his first year didn't make the playoffs and his second year, Penny was a rookie. Obviously one of the best defensive teams in the league, in NYK, is going to focus their entire defense on him. I see no true reason, other than to make the stats look in your favor, to pick 1993-1994 as the endpoint. Ewing was still really damn good in 94-95 but got dominated in every game he played against Shaq.

Using Shaq's rookie numbers when his best teammate was Scott Skiles is BS. He went from a 23 ppg scorer to a 29 ppg scorer from year 1 to 2. Not sure why it's ok to use those stats but 1994-1995 suddenly marked the end of Ewings's prime, when his PPG numbers dropped by 0.6 pts and his RPG numbers dropped by 0.2 rbs.

Shaq would have his way with Ewing, I think bringing up those head to head numbers was a mistake.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:06 PM
Deron has played very well vs billiups. People won't give Deron any credit so why bother bringing that up. Pippen and leonard switching off on Kobe will make his life hell, two top notch defenders giving him hell I expect Kobe to score well but on terrible %s. Another top defender on Peja not giving him the space he needs it's going to be tough to get a good look off. Brand is a solid player but I mean sheed is a really good post defender do you expect brand to have his way with sheed? I don't. Ewing is always treated as some scrub it's disgusting, he was a one man show in a tough 90s era. Shaq will have his way this matchup but is he going to shut down Ewing ? Or even slow down Ewing? I doubt it. Shaq will get his but Patrick will get his as well. Tyson Chandler will also get mins we will throw guys all over Shaq to make it at least difficult for him, he won't get easy buckets.

Who does Peja guard ? I mean you have to show respect for lenoards improvement each year on that end? So you are going to put Peja on him? Leonard will have his way, I know for sure you aren't putting him on Scottie because Scottie would destroy Peja. Our offense has 2 great playmakers on it a stretch 4 a scoring C and another guy in Leonard who can put up 20+ ESP if peja is guarding him all series. I'm confident in our chances of winning this series

roshan3ai
06-08-2016, 02:09 PM
Kareem made the all star team in 1987, 1988, 1989. He had longevity. So we hold it against the all time greats for having longevity? Sure Ewing was still productive in 1997, but he was no way shape or form the same player he was in his prime, or even at the end of his prime. Especially when you consider injuries.

It would be insane to argue Kareem's 3 year prime in 87, 88, and 89 likewise if there was a head to head matchup. That's an even bigger joke. It's somehow better had Kareem NOT made the All Star team in 87, 88, and 89 so that people will actually realize he had dropped in production in comparison to his prime?

That's a way bigger difference. You're talking about a 39 year old KAJ. I'm talking about a 32 year old Ewing. I'd agree Ewing was past his prime in the late nineties, but in the mid-nineties, ESPECIALLY a year after getting to the finals, I consider that the tail end of his prime. You can manipulate the stats all you want, but you used Shaq's rookie numbers and then cut the comparison conveniently when Shaq averaged 40+ versus Ewing.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:11 PM
Also, your stats are from when Ewing was "30+." He was 30-32, definitely still in his prime. Maybe not his prime 5 years, but he's still in his prime until maybe 1997. FFS he made the All-NBA Second Team in 1997. To not consider that part of his prime is a joke.


I mean once you get into your 30s you def start to slow down ESP on defense. Sure he still had his game but to try and imply like he didn't lose anything at that point is hilarious. Whatever though, Shaq will get his but he isn't shutting down Ewing to where they would win this series. If you look at the games Deron vs billiups Deron has a pretty significant edge. Our wing defense will really make it hard for Kobe and Peja to do what they would kormally do and sheed vs brand is a pretty interesting matchup I like sheeds defense and ability to have brand defend him outside. Brand for sure isn't going to be comfortable guarding sheed out there.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:15 PM
^

Yes! All due respect to Ewing, Shaq just straight up FEASTED on Ewing. As Ebbs so elequently put it, Shaq would bend Ewing over his knee and spank his ***. Rasheed on Shaq? Give me that *** too!

I acknowledge that Kobe will have tough time with Pippen/Kawhi but Rasheed/Ewing are going to struggle just as bad vs Brand/Shaq.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:17 PM
I'm going to assume La Habra puts Peja on Kawhi and vote for them. I also think Manson should not put Sheed at C at all vs. Shaq. "causing Shaq to move out to the perimeter and defend. Good luck with that." More like good luck stopping Shaq in the post where he would feast on a frontcourt of Sheed and Dice. Yea I'm sure La Habra is real worried Sheed is going to knock them out of the playoffs bc of Wallace raining 3's on Shaq's head. :pity:


Lol we aren't putting sheed there. He could get spot mins but it's mostly going to be Ewing/Tyson combo. I feel like they can make it at least tough for Shaq, Shaq will get his vs any C in history IMO but we will make him work for his buckets. I mean can really say that Peja on defense could hang with Leonard ? No way Peja couldn't play defense on anybody in our starting 5 and he would have trouble getting any uncontested looks vs whoever wasn't guarding Kobe. You make Kobe have a really tough shooting series it comes down to can anybody else step up with Shaq. Deron has done well vs billiups in their matchups, prime Deron used his size well, Leonard vs Peja just a really tough spot for Peja on both ends. Brand vs sheed, brand won't love coming out to guard sheed and sheed post defense is going to make it tough on brand, not to mention sheed will yell ball don't lie 45 times in the series when Shaq misses FTs.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:18 PM
I mean once you get into your 30s you def start to slow down ESP on defense. Sure he still had his game but to try and imply like he didn't lose anything at that point is hilarious. Whatever though, Shaq will get his but he isn't shutting down Ewing to where they would win this series. If you look at the games Deron vs billiups Deron has a pretty significant edge. Our wing defense will really make it hard for Kobe and Peja to do what they would kormally do and sheed vs brand is a pretty interesting matchup I like sheeds defense and ability to have brand defend him outside. Brand for sure isn't going to be comfortable guarding sheed out there.

Sheed will still be drawn out 15 feet to guard Brand as well. That leaves Shaq /Ewing alone in the post. You're gonna have to live with the most Dominant player in this series feasting all series.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:19 PM
^

Yes! All due respect to Ewing, Shaq just straight up FEASTED on Ewing. As Ebbs so elequently put it, Shaq would bend Ewing over his knee and spank his ***. Rasheed on Shaq? Give me that *** too!

I acknowledge that Kobe will have tough time with Pippen/Kawhi but Rasheed/Ewing are going to struggle just as bad vs Brand/Shaq.


Why is brand going to trash sheed? Sheed was a very good pair defender . Shaq will get his Cool, he isn't shutting Ewing down on the other end so let's even say Shaq averages 32 and Ewing averages 24. Is that enough to win the series ? ESP with Kobe prob shooting 38-41% from the field?

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:20 PM
Congratulations to Manson Family on making it to the Coonference Finals.

Same. You clearly deserve to be here. :cheers:


Why I will win:

Overalll, I have the 2 best players in the series. While Kobe will be guarded by Pippen/Kawhi MF still has no answer to the most dominant player in this series, Shaq.
As good as Ewing was, Shaq just straight up dominated him. MF said they'd even have Rasheed on Shaq at times, even better, that allows Shaq to feast even more.

No, Shaq didn't dominate and end of prime Ewing. I already posted the numbers to save you the trouble. Shaq did dominate and old man Ewing though, he is 9 years older after all. lol


There's no denying MFs defense is legit, fortunately their defensive threats are guarding my #2 option, not Shaq. The Ewing/Sheed/Chandler trio that MF used last series will not be a factor here, simply put, MF is built around Pippen/Kawhi and that makes life easy for Shaq.


Ewing was a defensive monster... He contained Shaq to a .502 ts% during their first 8 games. While you can argue Shaq got better defensively, he certainly didn't change much offensively. There is no reason to believe that Shaq got leaps and better offensively which would not allow for Ewing to guard him.


Also, while Deron Williams did put up good shooting numbers vs Billups he still had the exact same PPS as Billups.

PPS is a good stat, but it doesn't explain all the other ways I illustrated how Deron spanked Billups, especially in their playoff matchup.


As for Kobe, he can dominate in more ways than just one, he doesn't just have to score. Kobe and Billups will be my primary play makers feeding Shaq as much as possible, letting him get his. Lets not forget that Kobes assist/turnover ratio was great during his Kobe/Shaq days. Having Kobe play the Kobe Nash role this series isn't a bad thing, if anything that's the best Kobe for a Shaq led team with other floor spacers in Billups, Peja and Brand.


Who does Kobe guard?
Kobe vs Pippen/Kawhi:


Kobe and Pippen actually went H2H 38 times throughout their career. The regular season H2H resulted in a record of 13-8 in favor of Kobe. While playoff H2H resulted in 13-4, also in favor of Kobe. That's a combined 26-12 Record vs Scottie Pippen. In the regular season H2H matchups Kobe was able to shot 46% From the field, that's not exactly shutting kobe down.. And I would say 21 games is a solid sample size.

That was not 3 year prime Pippen. That was old man Pippen. Rosh will argue "but Pippen still made the All Star team...", doesn't mean he's the same player at 50 years old.

As for 21 games being a "solid sample size", it would be if their primes overlapped at all. Rosh might go ballistic on you for using head-to-head old man Pippen numbers with Kobe though... only you can't argue that Shaq was just as dominant offensively his first few seasons in the league as he was in season 10.


Kobe vs Kawhi is something we only saw 3 times. That's how many times we saw that matchup prior to Kobe's devastating achilles injury. This also came at a point where Kawhi was far too young but Kobe was still able to ahoot 29/55 in those 3 games. Although admittedly, a 3 game sample size with a green Kawhi isn't fair.


Agreed. It would be almost as silly as posting out of prime Pippen with Kobe.




Summary:
La Habra won't be doing any real cross matching on MF. Billups will be on Deron, Kobe on Pippen, Peja on Kawhi, BBrand on Rasheed, and Shaq on Ewing. I have 2 great playmakers to feed Shaq/Brand. I will be feasting on the boards with Shaq/Brand. Rasheed is MFs biggest matchup problem for most other teams, not vs Brand. I'll finally be able to incorporate Brand and cause even more problems for MF. While he doesnt space the floor all the way to the 3 point line like sheed, he was still a threat from mid range, a legit defender, and a superior scorer and rebounder to sheed. MFs biggest advantage is having their wings shut down ours, but how in the hell will they even slow down our front court?

Kobe will be abused by the physical Pippen. Do you plan on having someone help Kobe when Pippen is being physical?

As for who limits Shaq? Your spacing isn't that good considering our wings are cloaked over yours, and Brand being a 40% 10-16 foot FG shooter. Not to mention, an end of prime Ewing made the same offensive monster Shaq was shoot a .502 ts%. If Brand shoots on par with his 3-10 and 10-16 feet averages in the series as he did in his 3 year prime, I see Sheed helping Ewing on defense as well.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:23 PM
Sheed will still be drawn out 15 feet to guard Brand as well. That leaves Shaq /Ewing alone in the post. You're gonna have to live with the most Dominant player in this series feasting all series.

End of the day Shaq gets his but if you are keeping brand 15 feet out all series that's great he won't dominate from out there. Wait so how is prime Kobe going to feel seeing a ton less touches ? Kobe had that I'm going to score on anybody mentality, he's going to be ok with The amount of touches he sees in this series? Shaq will get his vs anybody but like I said he can get his but he isn't shutting down Patrick, Shaq guarding Patrick's mid range will give him fits as well. I'll take my chances with the 1-4 matchups we will have the wings looking at your coach asking what can we do to get an easier look.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:24 PM
Sheed will still be drawn out 15 feet to guard Brand as well. That leaves Shaq /Ewing alone in the post. You're gonna have to live with the most Dominant player in this series feasting all series.

I already posted Brand's 10-16 ft FG%. Thankfully, basketball-reference started recording shooting locations in 2000 and on. Why would Sheed respect Brand if he is shooting 40.9%?

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:26 PM
If you plan on keeping brand out there great. We will Live with it.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:27 PM
Thats the thing though, Shaq is definitely going to put your team in foul trouble since you have nobody to contain him. After that its ball game... Once in foul trouble your team wont be able to be as agressive on defense. This severely impacts Pippen/Kawhi and makes it easier for Kobe to start attacking as well. Plus, you dont want to go there with me...Peja and Billups, 2 career 90% FT shooters getting a chance to get to the charity stripe once youre in foul trouble? That'll be game...

In all honesty, that's the Shaq Effect. It's just how dominant he was. He's gonna make life so much easier for Billups, Kobe, Peja and Brand. Even with your superb perimeter defense. Once in foul trouble, that defensive duo won't be as intimidating.

It would be one thing if Kobe was my best player, but with Shaq being my best player? Not so much.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:29 PM
Shaq's team his first year didn't make the playoffs and his second year, Penny was a rookie. Obviously one of the best defensive teams in the league, in NYK, is going to focus their entire defense on him. I see no true reason, other than to make the stats look in your favor, to pick 1993-1994 as the endpoint. Ewing was still really damn good in 94-95 but got dominated in every game he played against Shaq.

Using Shaq's rookie numbers when his best teammate was Scott Skiles is BS. He went from a 23 ppg scorer to a 29 ppg scorer from year 1 to 2. Not sure why it's ok to use those stats but 1994-1995 suddenly marked the end of Ewings's prime, when his PPG numbers dropped by 0.6 pts and his RPG numbers dropped by 0.2 rbs.

Shaq would have his way with Ewing, I think bringing up those head to head numbers was a mistake.

You're bringing up teams and other players now. I guess John Starks is Stephen Curry.

Now then, I already told you why I used the first 2 seasons as the end point. At that point, Ewing is even further away from who he was in his prime. At 33, with as many miles as he had, it's understandable, no?

But do you actually agree with me that offensively, Shaq was equally dominant his first 2 seasons as he was season 5-10? What stats can you use to show he got noticeably better. If you do agree, admit you were a bit irrational calling the comparison "a joke". It's not ideal, but it's a fair stretch to use to make a point that Ewing can definitely guard Shaq... because he did.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:37 PM
Thats the thing though, Shaq is definitely going to put your team in foul trouble since you have nobody to contain him. After that its ball game... Once in foul trouble your team wont be able to be as agressive on defense. This severely impacts Pippen/Kawhi and makes it easier for Kobe to start attacking as well. Plus, you dont want to go there with me...Peja and Billups, 2 career 90% FT shooters getting a chance to get to the charity stripe once youre in foul trouble? That'll be game...

In all honesty, that's the Shaq Effect. It's just how dominant he was. He's gonna make life so much easier for Billups, Kobe, Peja and Brand. Even with your superb perimeter defense. Once in foul trouble, that defensive duo won't be as intimidating.

It would be one thing if Kobe was my best player, but with Shaq being my best player? Not so much.

The thing is, the Manson Family has defenders than defend at an elite level without drawing so many fouls.

End of Prime Ewing vs same offensive juggernaut Shaq (first 8 games)

Ewing: 34 fouls/8 games = 4.25 fouls
Shaq: 39 fouls/8 games = 4.88 fouls

This isn't even offensive prime Ewing attacking Shaq... this is end of prime Ewing against the similar offensive Shaq he has consistently been his entire career...

So if Ewing gets in foul trouble... then Shaq would be fouled out as he committed more fouls per game than Ewing did in their head-to-head.

If Shaq gets fouled out, it'll be a blow out.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:42 PM
That's a way bigger difference. You're talking about a 39 year old KAJ. I'm talking about a 32 year old Ewing. I'd agree Ewing was past his prime in the late nineties, but in the mid-nineties, ESPECIALLY a year after getting to the finals, I consider that the tail end of his prime. You can manipulate the stats all you want, but you used Shaq's rookie numbers and then cut the comparison conveniently when Shaq averaged 40+ versus Ewing.

You have still yet to show how Shaq's first 2 seasons is inferior by a significant margin in comparison to his other seasons. My whole point in showing the first 8 games, when Ewing was in the latter part of his prime, is to show that Ewing did in fact guard Shaq quite well... a ts% of .502 is actually insanely amazing...

Do you admit that Shaq's first 2 seasons, offensively speaking, were on par with the rest of his dominant career?

If so, then you can understand the argument that Ewing can hold his own against Shaq on the defensive end.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:44 PM
Thats the thing though, Shaq is definitely going to put your team in foul trouble since you have nobody to contain him. After that its ball game... Once in foul trouble your team wont be able to be as agressive on defense. This severely impacts Pippen/Kawhi and makes it easier for Kobe to start attacking as well. Plus, you dont want to go there with me...Peja and Billups, 2 career 90% FT shooters getting a chance to get to the charity stripe once youre in foul trouble? That'll be game...

In all honesty, that's the Shaq Effect. It's just how dominant he was. He's gonna make life so much easier for Billups, Kobe, Peja and Brand. Even with your superb perimeter defense. Once in foul trouble, that defensive duo won't be as intimidating.

It would be one thing if Kobe was my best player, but with Shaq being my best player? Not so much.


Lol seriously? Stop talking like ewing is some bum that wouldn't be able to do a thing against Shaq. We have a dpoy on the bench as well, we keep saying Shaq will get his but you wanna take it a step further it's insane. Pippen and Leonard have always been great defenders without fouling, you'll be in foul trouble too, no way Peja can stay in front of Leonard without fouling, Deron is to big for billiups we've seen it happen when they've played sometimes no matter how good you are there's always a matchup that hurts you derons size did that to billups, Shaq will have to play elite defense without fouling against a great offensive center like Ewing? We really going to try and play foul trouble , I don't know if Kobe was strong enough to play defense against Pippen without getting into foul trouble . We can play it both ways. It's a stupid argument. We are going to play tough defense and make life hell for your team, Shaq is the guy that'll get his efficiently the others? Not so much . You still haven't answered how Kobe is going to deal with the lack of touches / being that guy. He forced LAs hand to get rid of Shaq when he hit his prime why isn't it different now?

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:46 PM
Ewing lost a step. Going against a fresh stud In Shaq how can you not expect him to have trouble. But he had a couple games even at his old age against Shaq where he put up big numbers

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:50 PM
^

I could say the same thing though. If Ewing fouls out its also game for you, and like I said, once your team is in foul touble it opens up and changes the game for everyone on my team. My whole team is a threat offensively, same cant be said about yours. Kobes game changes immenesly if your team is in foul trouble, even with Pippen/Kawhi. As great defenders as those 2 are, that's also how great Kobe was offensively.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:51 PM
Ewing lost a step. Going against a fresh stud In Shaq how can you not expect him to have trouble. But he had a couple games even at his old age against Shaq where he put up big numbers

Exactly. Shaq's first 2 seasons weren't much different offensively than any other season. They ignore this point. lol

The funny thing is, Ewing outscores Shaq 29 to 24.5 when Ewing had already lost a step offensively.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 02:53 PM
Kobe will have huge trouble accepting a secondary role and will not have a productive series. He isn't going to just throw the ball in the post and Be cool with 15 shots a gameZ there was a reason Shaq and Kobe broke up, Kobe in his prime isn't being a #2 to anybody lol

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 02:55 PM
^

I could say the same thing though. If Ewing fouls out its also game for you, and like I said, once your team is in foul touble it opens up and changes the game for everyone on my team. My whole team is a threat offensively, same cant be said about yours. Kobes game changes immenesly if your team is in foul trouble, even with Pippen/Kawhi. As great defenders as those 2 are, that's also how great Kobe was offensively.

Well you did say the same thing, that's why I went back to look at the numbers. The numbers show Shaq fouled Ewing more than Ewing fouled Shaq.

Also, there is a reason why the Spurs are considered a great defensive team without giving up many fouls... Kawhi Leonard.

Imagine Kobe having to guard Pippen in the post... Kobe will not only be exhausted when he goes on offense, but he will have to foul Pippen from time to time when he is getting beat up/abused in the post.

Now imagine Peja trying to keep up with Kawhi. If Peja doesn't foul Kawhi, he'll get burned. Kawhi increases his offensive efficiency and scoring volume in the playoffs on top of that.

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 02:59 PM
I already posted Brand's 10-16 ft FG%. Thankfully, basketball-reference started recording shooting locations in 2000 and on. Why would Sheed respect Brand if he is shooting 40.9%?

Where are you getting that number from? Even if it were accurate, and it's not, the argument could just as easily be reversed against you with reference to Wallace. It would actually be a more sound argument in their favor if you want to go that far.

I understand that you're trying to claim they have a spacing problem with a Brand/Shaq frontcourt. They don't though.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 02:59 PM
Lol seriously? Stop talking like ewing is some bum that wouldn't be able to do a thing against Shaq. We have a dpoy on the bench as well, we keep saying Shaq will get his but you wanna take it a step further it's insane. Pippen and Leonard have always been great defenders without fouling, you'll be in foul trouble too, no way Peja can stay in front of Leonard without fouling, Deron is to big for billiups we've seen it happen when they've played sometimes no matter how good you are there's always a matchup that hurts you derons size did that to billups, Shaq will have to play elite defense without fouling against a great offensive center like Ewing? We really going to try and play foul trouble , I don't know if Kobe was strong enough to play defense against Pippen without getting into foul trouble . We can play it both ways. It's a stupid argument. We are going to play tough defense and make life hell for your team, Shaq is the guy that'll get his efficiently the others? Not so much . You still haven't answered how Kobe is going to deal with the lack of touches / being that guy. He forced LAs hand to get rid of Shaq when he hit his prime why isn't it different now?

How haven't I answered that. I clearly said kobe would be playing his facilitator Kobe Nash role. That's what's best for the team, I'm not gonna have Kobe go out there and chuck vs Pippen/Kawhi. Like i said, Kobe can still dominate a game without scoring. Kobe isn't exactly going to be shut down either. like i posted before, he was still able to shoot 46% in 21 H2H meetings vs Pippen. As good as defenders as your 2 guys are you can't just expect a player of Kobes caliber to be nonexistent all series long..plus he'd still be able to limit Pippen offensively as well.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:01 PM
Kobe will have huge trouble accepting a secondary role and will not have a productive series. He isn't going to just throw the ball in the post and Be cool with 15 shots a gameZ there was a reason Shaq and Kobe broke up, Kobe in his prime isn't being a #2 to anybody lol

They were also able to win 3 rings before that happened, and eliminated a team that had Pippen and Sheed...

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 03:04 PM
Where are you getting that number from? Even if it were accurate, and it's not, the argument could just as easily be reversed against you with reference to Wallace. It would actually be a more sound argument in their favor if you want to go that far.

I understand that you're trying to claim they have a spacing problem with a Brand/Shaq frontcourt. They don't though.

I get that part, but man brand outside rather than doing what he did best? I mean as good as sheed is defensively in the post you have to keep brand down there, him 15-16 feet from the basket I can live with that. sheed will more times than not show on Shaq forcing him to pass to brand, sheed was good enough laterally to at least make it a difficult outside shot for brand. I can live with that all series.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:06 PM
Where are you getting that number from? Even if it were accurate, and it's not, the argument could just as easily be reversed against you with reference to Wallace. It would actually be a more sound argument in their favor if you want to go that far.

I understand that you're trying to claim they have a spacing problem with a Brand/Shaq frontcourt. They don't though.

Exactly, spacing is not my problem at all. There's this common misconception in the ATRD that if your player doesn't shoot 3s he won't space the floor (Valade has dealt with that). Brand spaces the floor just as well as Sheed if not better..

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 03:06 PM
They were also able to win 3 rings before that happened, and eliminated a team that had Pippen and Sheed...


1- Kobe was young, not his full prime. What happened to that team why did they stop at ring 3?

2- how old was Pippen ?

3- Kobe doesn't take a backseat to nobody.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 03:08 PM
Where are you getting that number from? Even if it were accurate, and it's not, the argument could just as easily be reversed against you with reference to Wallace. It would actually be a more sound argument in their favor if you want to go that far.

I understand that you're trying to claim they have a spacing problem with a Brand/Shaq frontcourt. They don't though.

http://i.imgur.com/82UDU7N.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MeJ2VH5.jpg

I'm sorry, but 45.7% (3-10 feet) and 46.0% (10-16 feet) is a hell of a lot better than 42.2% and 40.9%. :rolleyes:

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:11 PM
I get that part, but man brand outside rather than doing what he did best? I mean as good as sheed is defensively in the post you have to keep brand down there, him 15-16 feet from the basket I can live with that. sheed will more times than not show on Shaq forcing him to pass to brand, sheed was good enough laterally to at least make it a difficult outside shot for brand. I can live with that all series.

I can live with that as well though. Shaq being 1 on 1 in the post and when Sheed collapses he can kick out to any of the floor spacers (all 4 of my guys). Even with brand shooting 40% from 16 feet, that's actually not bad from midrange, especially if left open. Id imagine you'd see that % increase significantly as well.

Lets not forget that Kobe was able to dominate with Pau as well, and that pick and pop was deadly as hell. Kobe and Brand could also replicate that with Shaq drawing so much attention.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 03:16 PM
I can live with that as well though. Shaq being 1 on 1 in the post and when Sheed collapses he can kick out to any of the floor spacers (all 4 of my guys). Even with brand shooting 40% from 16 feet, that's actually not bad from midrange, especially if left open. Id imagine you'd see that % increase significantly as well.

Lets not forget that Kobe was able to dominate with Pau as well, and that pick and pop was deadly as hell. Kobe and Brand could also replicate that with Shaq drawing so much attention.


Sheed was good enough to show on Shaq and make it a somewhat contested shot, he won't have open shots, Kobe didn't have to play against. Defender like Scottie Pippen, so I don't see him dominating any aspect of the game vs Scottie won't happen. Man ball out of Shaq and kobes hands? That's a win for us. Keep giving brand that mid range jumper that's 100% fine. That's far from brands A game and we keep the ball out of Shaq and kobes hands. Peja will have way to much trouble getting open. Brand shooting the mid range shot possession after possession sounds pretty great. I'm glad you agree

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 03:20 PM
Exactly, spacing is not my problem at all. There's this common misconception in the ATRD that if your player doesn't shoot 3s he won't space the floor (Valade has dealt with that). Brand spaces the floor just as well as Sheed if not better..

I think the real misconception is that you think 42.2% from 3-10 feet, and 40.9% from 10-16 feet means that Brand is a good floor spacer.

Patrick Ewing, who didn't hit 3's, was a good midrange shooter. So I clearly subscribe to the "you can still be a spacer and not shoot from 3" argument.

Speaking of which, I don't think I mentioned the impact Ewing will have pulling Shaq away from the rim. It will allow Kawhi, Pippen, and Deron to score a lot more efficiently. :)

Not to mention, Kobe is getting beat up in the post by Pippen, who is suppose to help him when he's getting abused?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:22 PM
1- Kobe was young, not his full prime. What happened to that team why did they stop at ring 3?

2- how old was Pippen ?

3- Kobe doesn't take a backseat to nobody.

Even with Kobe as the #1 he was able to get 2 rings though...He turned Pau into winner as well. Hed be able to do the same with a prime brand next to Shaq.

The reality is that Kobe HAS been Robin AND Batman. Hed be able to adjust and play both roles depending on what the team needs. Also, Kobe did well with a leader in Fisher, Billups could play that role easily, and do so much better..

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 03:27 PM
Even with Kobe as the #1 he was able to get 2 rings though...He turned Pau into winner as well. Hed be able to do the same with a prime brand next to Shaq.

The reality is that Kobe HAS been Robin AND Batman. Hed be able to adjust and play both roles depending on what the team needs. Also, Kobe did well with a leader in Fisher, Billups could play that role easily, and do so much better..

Except he kicked Shaq to the curb. He made it real simple for the lakers him or Shaq choose one. They chose: what's different now? Who is getting more shots in this series Shaq or Kobe? Pau was pretty great before he got with Kobe, I do recall pau having a big couple rebounds in that game 7 Kobe shot what was it 6-22? Or somehing of that nature. Kobe won as a robin when he was young, before he hit his prime. It would be a problem having Kobe be that #2 option and hey man brand is open from mid range you said you were fine with giving him a ton of those shots, so Kobe is going to see what 12-13 shots a game! He's not accepting that. Not to mention those 12-13 shots will be hounded by one of if not the greatest perimeter defenders to ever step foot on the court

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:37 PM
http://i.imgur.com/82UDU7N.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MeJ2VH5.jpg

I'm sorry, but 45.7% (3-10 feet) and 46.0% (10-16 feet) is a hell of a lot better than 42.2% and 40.9%. :rolleyes:

Why aren't you using Brands 3 year prime tho?

From 10-16 Feet:

04-05 : 44.2% (161-364)

05-06: 49.1% (285-580)

06-07: 46.2% (190-411)

Keep in mind, that was Brand as the #1 option, imagine what hed do with less pressure having 3 maybe even 4 guys setting him up on easier shots. Like I said, he provides legit spacing, underrated defense and superior rebounding to sheed.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 03:40 PM
Except he kicked Shaq to the curb. He made it real simple for the lakers him or Shaq choose one. They chose: what's different now? Who is getting more shots in this series Shaq or Kobe? Pau was pretty great before he got with Kobe, I do recall pau having a big couple rebounds in that game 7 Kobe shot what was it 6-22? Or somehing of that nature. Kobe won as a robin when he was young, before he hit his prime. It would be a problem having Kobe be that #2 option and hey man brand is open from mid range you said you were fine with giving him a ton of those shots, so Kobe is going to see what 12-13 shots a game! He's not accepting that. Not to mention those 12-13 shots will be hounded by one of if not the greatest perimeter defenders to ever step foot on the court

I said Brand can space just like sheed can, that's all I said. You also admitted Shaq would go off, but who would go off on your team? I keep hearing about defense, but the reality is, your team doesn't have the necessary offense needed to win.

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 03:46 PM
I said Brand can space just like sheed can, that's all I said. You also admitted Shaq would go off, but who would go off on your team? I keep hearing about defense, but the reality is, your team doesn't have the necessary offense needed to win.


No you said you was fine with brand taking a bunch of those shots. We have plenty of offense. Ewing will get his, Pippen will for sure use his size against Kobe to get his, Peja guarding Leonard? Yeah right Leonard will attack the basket all night, Deron has show plenty of times he has to much size for billups. We have PLENTY of offense. Not to mention dice Jrich off the bench scoring.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 04:01 PM
So Deron/Kawhi/Pippen/Sheed/Ewing will all get theirs on offense AND shut down all my players on defense as well?

Like Rosh said, "Why draft Magic Johnson in the first when you can take Deron Williams in the sixth and get elite offense AND great defense?"

You cant exaggerate and over sell your players either lmfao. What's next? Kawhi=Jordan? Pippen=Lebron? Sheed=Duncan? Ewing=Shaq?

Why is it that all of a sudden Billups, Kobe, Brand, and Shaq cant defend but at the same time make no impact on offense? They were all capable 2 way players, you can't just say your team can shut mine down and still rape on offense. :laugh:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 04:32 PM
Why aren't you using Brands 3 year prime tho?

From 10-16 Feet:

04-05 : 44.2% (161-364)

05-06: 49.1% (285-580)

06-07: 46.2% (190-411)

Keep in mind, that was Brand as the #1 option, imagine what hed do with less pressure having 3 maybe even 4 guys setting him up on easier shots. Like I said, he provides legit spacing, underrated defense and superior rebounding to sheed.

I did. Brand only made the All Star team in 2 seasons, 2001 and 2006. No mention of which 3 years was made until this post, so I used his 2001 numbers.

Using the other seasons surrounded by his 2006 All Star selection, he shot fewer than 50% of his shots from 3-16 feet. However, I'll give the devil his due and say he did shoot well from that range the times he did shoot there.

If only we had postseason numbers for Brand to compare and contrast them from his regular season numbers. Like how Williams and Kawhi step up their scoring and efficiency in comparison to their regular season. Unfortunately, he put up good numbers on crappy teams, not entirely his fault.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 04:37 PM
Why aren't you using Brands 3 year prime tho?

From 10-16 Feet:

04-05 : 44.2% (161-364)

05-06: 49.1% (285-580)

06-07: 46.2% (190-411)

Keep in mind, that was Brand as the #1 option, imagine what hed do with less pressure having 3 maybe even 4 guys setting him up on easier shots. Like I said, he provides legit spacing, underrated defense and superior rebounding to sheed.

Also wanted to add to this.

During Brand's 3 year prime he did well vs sheed. So you can't even sell that "defend him in the post" bs.

From 04-06 (Brand's Prime):

Brand shot 51% vs Rasheed. (54-105)

Rasheed shot 44% vs Brand. (30-68)

Brand also Rebounded better. H2H during same time frame 8.8 to 7.4, advantage Brand.

Both of my front court players are better, I still have the 2 most dominant players inn this series, and my team overall is more talented.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 04:43 PM
I did. Brand only made the All Star team in 2 seasons, 2001 and 2006. No mention of which 3 years was made until this post, so I used his 2001 numbers.

Using the other seasons surrounded by his 2006 All Star selection, he shot fewer than 50% of his shots from 3-16 feet. However, I'll give the devil his due and say he did shoot well from that range the times he did shoot there.

If only we had postseason numbers for Brand to compare and contrast them from his regular season numbers. Like how Williams and Kawhi step up their scoring and efficiency in comparison to their regular season. Unfortunately, he put up good numbers on crappy teams, not entirely his fault.

its why he gets underrated. He was the #1 option on a **** team. The 1 year he had help he was 1 game from the WCF but lost to the amare nash suns.

It's why i made the pau comparison, Pau was 0-8 in the playoffs, then he teamed up with Kobe and made 3 straight final appearances and won 2 championships in a row. Pau's efficiency also increased and he was money from midrange when left open. Id be doing the same here when Brand is left open because of your defense collapsing in kobe/Shaq.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 04:44 PM
So Deron/Kawhi/Pippen/Sheed/Ewing will all get theirs on offense AND shut down all my players on defense as well?

Well, Kawhi and Pippen are known for keeping their elite defense while maintaining their elite offensive skills. No one is saying they will "stop" Shaq and Kobe, but they will make them shoot a lot more shots to get their points.

Remember the point I made about an end of prime Ewing defending Shaq (who didn't change offensively)? Anyone who can make Shaq shoot .502 ts% but still allow him to average 24.5 points per game is doing a decent job at least. Not "stopping" but certainly irritating him.

As for Kobe... he gets no break on offense or defense. He has 2 of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history guarding him at all time, and on top of that, he has to focus a lot of energy guarding Pippen. He will get abused on both ends of the floor, but he will still get his points... he's Kobe. He'll probably need a ton more shots to get his 25 points though... which Manson Family will gladly take as it gets the ball out of Shaq's hands.


Like Rosh said, "Why draft Magic Johnson in the first when you can take Deron Williams in the sixth and get elite offense AND great defense?"

You cant exaggerate and over sell your players either lmfao. What's next? Kawhi=Jordan? Pippen=Lebron? Sheed=Duncan? Ewing=Shaq?


Because people underrated the hell out of Deron Williams. Do we just ignore the fact Deron always got the better of Billups even though Billups has the better career? It doesn't work that way.


Why is it that all of a sudden Billups, Kobe, Brand, and Shaq cant defend but at the same time make no impact on offense? They were all capable 2 way players, you can't just say your team can shut mine down and still rape on offense. :laugh:

I love Brand. I think he is a plus defender. Kobe, disgustingly overrated on defense. As for Billups, he is a good defender historically, but you said 21 games is a good enough sample size, and D Will averaged 25+ points per game, 46+% FG, 40%+ from 3, 3 rebounds, and 9 assists on him while making Billups average less than him in just about every metric there is in the postseason.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

Kobe's defensive +/-, which is probably the best defensive metric there is, is -1.2... -1.2.... and you're putting him on Scottie Pippen who bigger and stronger than him. Even the biggest Kobe fan will know he was undeserving of many of the All Defensive team selections he made, as are his All Star selections...

On that same list though, Brand has an RAPM of +0.82 on offense and +0.47 on defense. A good player, but nothing spectacular. If it's Brand vs Sheed for who is the better #1 option, I'll concede Brand would be better... If you're needing a versatile player who is a great defender and shooter, it's without a doubt Sheed. We both want to use our PF's as a floor spacer who plays defense... You aren't using Brand the same way he was used in real life in his prime... I'm using Sheed the same exact way.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 05:23 PM
Kobe shot 46% vs Pippen in their 21 regular season matchups.

Shaq shot 54% while scoring 29-12 in H2H matchups vs Ewing. Ewing shot 44% while scoring 21-10. That was in 26 matchups.

If you're willing to concede that Kobe/Shaq would get theirs I'll give you the Billups matchup :laugh:.

Im not saying brand is gonna be used the most, just saying he's just as good at spacing the floor, while i do think his efficiency would increase with The players I have around him. Meanwhile he can contain rasheed, something that others couldn't do in your previous matchups.

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 05:35 PM
I get that part, but man brand outside rather than doing what he did best? I mean as good as sheed is defensively in the post you have to keep brand down there, him 15-16 feet from the basket I can live with that. sheed will more times than not show on Shaq forcing him to pass to brand, sheed was good enough laterally to at least make it a difficult outside shot for brand. I can live with that all series.

If Brand is already positioned at the top of the key, on the baseline, near the elbow, or somewhere else 10-16 feet away from the basket that leaves Sheed a small window of time to double down and help on O'Neal. If anyone had time during his career to learn how to pass out of a double team, it was Shaq.

And there's something of a domino effect when you apply multiple defenders to one player. You send Sheed down to double Shaq "more times than not" and someone is going to be open somewhere. This isn't Udonis Haslem or old Karl Malone or an average four you're leaving open. Brand is a 20-10 power forward and a solid scorer.


http://i.imgur.com/82UDU7N.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MeJ2VH5.jpg

I'm sorry, but 45.7% (3-10 feet) and 46.0% (10-16 feet) is a hell of a lot better than 42.2% and 40.9%. :rolleyes:

Am I missing one of the rules of this game? Why are those the years used for Brand? I keep seeing this "3 year peak business." Statistically, he had better seasons after that. Shooting from 10-16 feet, 3-10 feet, and in many other statistical categories. Hell those were three of Brand's first four years in the league.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 05:43 PM
Catfish, that's what I said. Those are Brand's first years of his careers. 04-06 was Brands 3 year prime and he shot 47% from 10-16 Feet. 51% overall during that stretch.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 05:51 PM
Am I missing one of the rules of this game? Why are those the years used for Brand? I keep seeing this "3 year peak business." Statistically, he had better seasons after that. Shooting from 10-16 feet, 3-10 feet, and in many other statistical categories. Hell those were three of Brand's first four years in the league.

Yeah, we based it off 3 year peaks. I was one of the few GM's who opposed such a small peak, but it was decided this way at the beginning of the redraft.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, in none of LG's write ups did he mention which 3 years. I just used the 3 year prime where he was an All Star.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 05:56 PM
Kobe shot 46% vs Pippen in their 21 regular season matchups.

Shaq shot 54% while scoring 29-12 in H2H matchups vs Ewing. Ewing shot 44% while scoring 21-10. That was in 26 matchups.

If you're willing to concede that Kobe/Shaq would get theirs I'll give you the Billups matchup :laugh:.

Im not saying brand is gonna be used the most, just saying he's just as good at spacing the floor, while i do think his efficiency would increase with The players I have around him. Meanwhile he can contain rasheed, something that others couldn't do in your previous matchups.

I was hoping Rosh would come in and rage on you...

Pippen was not the same player he was when he faced Kobe. Prime Pippen would have a greater impact than the old man Pippen on a young Kobe... you know this. I don't even have to say this. :laugh: You just keep repeating it and ignoring context.

I actually accounted for Shaq's offensive prowess when using the end of Ewing's prime head-to-head comparison. He really hindered Shaq to a ts% of .502. I'm repeating myself because you aren't addressing this fact, but instead, focus on an out of prime Ewing and prime Shaq head-to-head matchups.

Question I'd like you to answer: Was Shaq's offensive prowess noticeably different his first few years than his 5th-10th year? If so, please explain and provide data to back your opinion up as I have with my own opinions.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 06:04 PM
Catfish, that's what I said. Those are Brand's first years of his careers. 04-06 was Brands 3 year prime and he shot 47% from 10-16 Feet. 51% overall during that stretch.

Once you made mention of what 3 years, (the only other All Star year he had in his career), I responded accordingly.

Fewer than 50% of Brand's shots were from 3-16 feet. If Brand shoots the majority of his shots within 0-3 feet, in which he DID, how does that give Shaq room to work and keep Sheed from helping out?

Sheed, on the other hand, shot 60.9% of his shots from 10 feet to 3 point range. 39.1% of his shots came from 0-10 feet. Brand wasn't known for perimeter defense, this isn't really a question... it's why he didn't always guard Sheed all the time. Brand liked to stay around the rim where he was a good rebounder.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 06:09 PM
Fixed.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 06:18 PM
If Brand is already positioned at the top of the key, on the baseline, near the elbow, or somewhere else 10-16 feet away from the basket that leaves Sheed a small window of time to double down and help on O'Neal. If anyone had time during his career to learn how to pass out of a double team, it was Shaq.

Fortunately, fewer than 50% of Brand's shots (from 04-05, 05-06, 06-07) come from 10 feet and beyond. With an already reduced offensive role, that leaves the majority of Brand's looks from within 0-10 feet. This definitely gives Sheed the ability to help Ewing. Not that an end of prime Ewing held offensive beast Shaq to .502 ts% even if Sheed couldn't help or anything...

Shammyguy3
06-08-2016, 06:24 PM
La Habra in a landslide

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 06:26 PM
Another point on Brand: The reason why Brand shot worse from 00-01, 01-02, 02-03 from 3-10 feet (42.2%) and 10-16 feet (40.9%) is because over 50% of his shots came from those locations... which is how you claim you'll be using Elton Brand.

You want to use the Brand that took more shots from 3-16 feet, but use the percentages he shot when he took less than 50% of his shots from 3-16 feet. :laugh:

You can't have it both ways.

Or using his actual three year peak, from 2004 to 2006 when he posted PERs of 22.4, 26.5, and 23.1, he shot 46.6% from 10-16 feet (32.5% of his attempts) and 51.7% from 3-10 feet (23.5% of his attempts).

I really don't care who wins (I was leaning Manson to begin with but I'm 50/50 now) but I can't let the alleged spacing problem of a Shaq/Brand frontcourt go.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 06:27 PM
La Habra in a landslide

Ranking Manson Family #17, this comes as a big shock. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 06:32 PM
Or using his actual three year peak, from 2004 to 2006 when he posted PERs of 22.4, 26.5, and 23.1, he shot 46.6% from 10-16 feet (32.5% of his attempts) and 51.7% from 3-10 feet (23.5% of his attempts).

I really don't care who wins (I was leaning Manson to begin with but I'm 50/50 now) but I can't let the alleged spacing problem of a Shaq/Brand frontcourt go.

Right, I conceded that Brand actually did improve his jump shot during the other 3 year prime.

I just want LG and his pseudo-co Rosh, to admit that Shaq's offensive game didn't change significantly from his first few seasons to his 5th through 10th season.

If they concede that Shaq's offense has been consistently dominant his first few years as it was year 5-10, then there is a clear precedent that shows an end of prime Ewing defended Shaq to 24.5 points per game on .502 ts%.

On top of this, we would get Sheed helping out the times Brand isn't 10-16 feet away (which is more or less 50% of the time). This becomes less of a factor once it's realized that an old Ewing held his own against Shaq's offense.

Shammyguy3
06-08-2016, 06:40 PM
Ranking Manson Family #17, this comes as a big shock. :laugh2:

I had La Habra losing last round based on matchups and admitted that your team winning wouldn't really surprise me based on the matchups. However, you don't matchup as well this time around.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 07:01 PM
I had La Habra losing last round based on matchups and admitted that your team winning wouldn't really surprise me based on the matchups. However, you don't matchup as well this time around.

Yes, you stated something to the affect of: "Damn, Manson Family matches up perfectly... I'm voting Ebbs". :laugh:

You then proceed to say how you're shocked that even though Price = Williams, Kawhi ***** on Battier, Pippen > Clyde, and Sheed > Melo, that Manson Family won. Meanwhile, over 600 votes on twitter, 65% say Manson Family wins.

Your picking La Habra over PSK/Jamal's team is picking a 5th ranked team over a 1st team. Completely different than "objectively" and "non-personally" ranking Manson Family #17 gtfo :laugh2:

Sadds The Gr8
06-08-2016, 07:13 PM
La habra in 5. Manson doesn't have the scoring power to keep up

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 07:14 PM
Peja Stojakovic on Kawhi Leonard....

Let's pretend Peja's defense was as good as Andre Roberson of the OKC who is the player assigned to Kawhi. Looking at the regular season numbers:

Kawhi's numbers:
.606 ts%, FG: .531, 1.6/4.2 3P (38.1%), FT% .850, REB 4.8, AST 2.8, PTS 25.4

We know Peja's defense isn't on the same planet as Andre Roberson's. Because Kawhi and Peja didn't play against each other, I just wanted to show that even with a great wing defender (Roberson's defense is awesome, it's his offense that sucks), Kawhi was able to score quite a few points with elite efficiency.

How does Peja plan to guard Kawhi? Manson Family will exploit that matchup as long as it works. Does Peja go to the bench? Does he foul Kawhi? Does he just let Kawhi go off?

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 07:19 PM
La habra in 5. Manson doesn't have the scoring power to keep up

All 5 starters of Manson Family can get you 20+ on any given night. Deron Williams clearly showed that when he averaged 25+ points on better efficiency than Billups in the playoffs. He also had the clear edge in the regular season head-to-head prime.

Kawhi Leonard won't expose the hell out of Peja? Peja is going to "limit" him? Kawhi was the Spurs number 1 option and an infinitely better defender in Andre Roberson still let Kawhi average 20 points.

Rasheed Wallace averaged about 19 points a game in his prime...

End of prime Ewing was able to put up 29 points a game against Shaq in their first 8 games.

With the defense Manson Family has, would either team even break 100 points? If not or right at about 100, how much offense does Manson Family really need to win?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 07:28 PM
I was hoping Rosh would come in and rage on you...

Pippen was not the same player he was when he faced Kobe. Prime Pippen would have a greater impact than the old man Pippen on a young Kobe... you know this. I don't even have to say this. :laugh: You just keep repeating it and ignoring context.

I actually accounted for Shaq's offensive prowess when using the end of Ewing's prime head-to-head comparison. He really hindered Shaq to a ts% of .502. I'm repeating myself because you aren't addressing this fact, but instead, focus on an out of prime Ewing and prime Shaq head-to-head matchups.

Question I'd like you to answer: Was Shaq's offensive prowess noticeably different his first few years than his 5th-10th year? If so, please explain and provide data to back your opinion up as I have with my own opinions.

You can't be serious..... can you? Scott Skiles was Shaq's 2nd best player during those first 4 games, during the last 4 games of the same 8 game stretch you're preaching about:

Shaq shot 48/81 vs Ewing, good for 59.25%.

During those last 4 games of the 8 game stretch:

Shaq: 29 PPG 13 Rbs per game

Ewing: 31PPG 12 Rbs per game

Keep in mind, that is the Ewing you're saying is in his prime. Meanwhile, that's Shaq's 2nd/3rd year in the league.

Also worth noting, is that Ewing had Charles Oakley next to him to help out vs Shaq....who the **** did Shaq have to help out? And he still put up 29-13 vs those 2! A young shaq, not in his prime doing that vs Ewing in his prime and Oakley.

Also, it's not a coincidence Shaq's last 4 games of that stretch came with Penny being the playmaker on that team, while the first 4 games it was Scott Skiles. See, I can manipulate the stats as well.

You said Shaq didn't change much from his early days to his laker days? :laugh2:

He went from this: https://blog-blogmediainc.netdna-ssl.com/upload/SportsBlogcom/1945010/0044287001459798772_filepicker.jpg

to this: http://sneakerhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Shaquille-ONeal-Los-Angeles-Lakers.jpeg

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 07:44 PM
You can't be serious..... can you? Scott Skiles was Shaq's 2nd best player during those first 4 games, during the last 4 games of the same 8 game stretch you're preaching about:

He went from this: https://blog-blogmediainc.netdna-ssl.com/upload/SportsBlogcom/1945010/0044287001459798772_filepicker.jpg

to this: http://sneakerhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Shaquille-ONeal-Los-Angeles-Lakers.jpeg

So you show two pictures to show that Shaq's offense is somehow different? Okay... how about something a little bit more objective? Any stats to show he was better offensively? Was he more efficient? Score more points? Shoot from 3?

And I swear, Rosh really must be your new co, you're regurgitating the same player comparison (Scott Skiles) as his best player.

I know Rosh had John Starks on his bench, but having John "2 for 18" Starks as your 2nd best player is not exactly much better. What do Skiles and Starks even have to do with the head-to-head matchup at center? :laugh:

You mention Ewing had Oakley... okay, we have Sheed. Sheed has a defensive +/- (RAPM) of 4+. Go back to the list I posted... sorry, I don't want to just post 2 pictures to show the difference. :laugh2:

So I'll keep asking until you give me a definitive "Yes" or a definitive "No" followed by ACTUAL evidence to suggest that Shaq's offensive game evolved.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 07:47 PM
What's really cute though is you had no problem repeating the same head-to-head match up numbers of old man Pippen and young buck Kobe, but object to an end of prime Ewing containing Shaq whose offensive didn't evolve much, if any, to a .502 ts%. :rolleyes:

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 07:58 PM
So you show two pictures to show that Shaq's offense is somehow different? Okay... how about something a little bit more objective? Any stats to show he was better offensively? Was he more efficient? Score more points? Shoot from 3?

And I swear, Rosh really must be your new co, you're regurgitating the same player comparison (Scott Skiles) as his best player.

I know Rosh had John Starks on his bench, but having John "2 for 18" Starks as your 2nd best player is not exactly much better. What do Skiles and Starks even have to do with the head-to-head matchup at center? :laugh:

You mention Ewing had Oakley... okay, we have Sheed. Sheed has a defensive +/- (RAPM) of 4+. Go back to the list I posted... sorry, I don't want to just post 2 pictures to show the difference. :laugh2:

So I'll keep asking until you give me a definitive "Yes" or a definitive "No" followed by ACTUAL evidence to suggest that Shaq's offensive game evolved.

I mean, look at the 8 game stretch you're talking about? The first 4 games with Scott Skiles as the playmaker Shaq shot 39% vs Ewing. The last 4 games of that same stretch, where Penny was there to help Shaq, Shaq's FG% jumped to 59%?

I'm answering you're question lmfao, it's not my fault you don't want to accept it because it benefits me...

And what do you mean what difference does it make if Oakley helped out? That makes a huge difference, Oakley didn't have to worry about Jeff Turner, whoever the **** that was?!

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 07:59 PM
What's really cute though is you had no problem repeating the same head-to-head match up numbers of old man Pippen and young buck Kobe, but object to an end of prime Ewing containing Shaq whose offensive didn't evolve much, if any, to a .502 ts%. :rolleyes:

But I'm using the same 8 game stretch as you.. Now you're just realizing that Shaq dominated Ewing, that's the problem hahaha.

I also like how you only wanted to use the first 8 games of their matchups, why not the rest of the 18 games huh? Just the same you "accidentally" used Brand's first few years, instead of his obvious 3 year Prime. :rolleyes: You're doing the same **** as me? :D

Like Cat Fish said, Brand was a legit 20-10 guy on 50% shooting while still providing legit defense, I mean, I'll take that next to shaq, especially since he spaces the floor as well.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 08:33 PM
But I'm using the same 8 game stretch as you.. Now you're just realizing that Shaq dominated Ewing, that's the problem hahaha.

I also like how you only wanted to use the first 8 games of their matchups, why not the rest of the 18 games huh? Just the same you "accidentally" used Brand's first few years, instead of his obvious 3 year Prime. :rolleyes: You're doing the same **** as me? :D

Like Cat Fish said, Brand was a legit 20-10 guy on 50% shooting while still providing legit defense, I mean, I'll take that next to shaq, especially since he spaces the floor as well.

I already explained why I used the first 2 years of Ewing's tail end prime to your co (Rosh).

They played in different decades but I wanted to show a clear precedent that Ewing (even at 30+) was able to contain Shaq's offense. You essentially concede that Shaq's offense was no different as your only evidence is two pictures. You obviously agree that Shaq scored similar points on similar efficiency from exactly the same range or you would have posted the numbers by now. Please stop deflecting: what numbers do you have to suggest Shaq evolved offensively throughout his career?

If I can show an old Ewing contained Shaq to .502 ts%, which he did, then I can show that a prime Ewing would do just as well, if not better, defending prime Shaq, as prime Shaq's offense was no different than his first two seasons.

You ask why I didn't use all their head-to-head games? That is a silly question and you know it... because I'm comparing a prime Shaq to an OUT of prime Ewing. Even in their first 8 games Ewing wasn't at his best 3 year prime.

If you think Shaq scoring 24.5 on .502 ts% is "dominating", then we clearly have differing definitions of "domination."

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 08:41 PM
I already explained why I used the first 2 years of Ewing's tail end prime to your co (Rosh).

They played in different decades but I wanted to show a clear precedent that Ewing (even at 30+) was able to contain Shaq's offense. You essentially concede that Shaq's offense was no different as your only evidence is two pictures. You obviously agree that Shaq scored similar points on similar efficiency from exactly the same range or you would have posted the numbers by now. Please stop deflecting: what numbers do you have to suggest Shaq evolved offensively throughout his career?

If I can show an old Ewing contained Shaq to .502 ts%, which he did, then I can show that a prime Ewing would do just as well, if not better, defending prime Shaq, as prime Shaq's offense was no different than his first two seasons.

You ask why I didn't use all their head-to-head games? That is a silly question and you know it... because I'm comparing a prime Shaq to an OUT of prime Ewing. Even in their first 8 games Ewing wasn't at his best 3 year prime.

If you think Shaq scoring 24.5 on .502 ts% is "dominating", then we clearly have differing definitions of "domination."

But YOU'RE the one that brought up that 8 game sample size. I showed you how the stats were clearly different when Shaq had help like he does on my team... So why all of a sudden is that 8 game sample size not what you want to hear (or see) since you're the one that chose that 8 game sample size. Sounds like backtracking to me...

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 09:18 PM
But YOU'RE the one that brought up that 8 game sample size. I showed you how the stats were clearly different when Shaq had help like he does on my team... So why all of a sudden is that 8 game sample size not what you want to hear (or see) since you're the one that chose that 8 game sample size. Sounds like backtracking to me...

No, you showed stats of an out of prime Ewing who had suffered injuries! :laugh:

Yes, I brought up the 2 year match up that was at the tail end of Ewing's prime... why? Because it's completely relevant to how he was able to contain Shaq defensively (.502 ts%).

Now, your reasoning for Shaq playing so poorly against a 30+ year old Ewing is because his team was terrible. Let me debunk this by showing that NYK was 1st in the Atlantic Division and Magic was 2nd in 1993-1994. Both teams were 50+ win teams... yet, an old Ewing still contained Shaq.

Now, please: What raw numbers and/or advanced, or shooting location, etc... can you show that illustrates how Shaq improved offensively throughout his career.

No... I don't mean show me two pictures, or show me two teams... The Magic had a better win record the more help Shaq had, but his individual numbers are virtually the same: True or False? If false, explain and provide evidence.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 09:30 PM
No, you showed stats of an out of prime Ewing who had suffered injuries! :laugh:

Yes, I brought up the 2 year match up that was at the tail end of Ewing's prime... why? Because it's completely relevant to how he was able to contain Shaq defensively (.502 ts%).

Now, your reasoning for Shaq playing so poorly against a 30+ year old Ewing is because his team was terrible. Let me debunk this by showing that NYK was 1st in the Atlantic Division and Magic was 2nd in 1993-1994. Both teams were 50+ win teams... yet, an old Ewing still contained Shaq.

Now, please: What raw numbers and/or advanced, or shooting location, etc... can you show that illustrates how Shaq improved offensively throughout his career.

No... I don't mean show me two pictures, or show me two teams... The Magic had a better win record the more help Shaq had, but his individual numbers are virtually the same: True or False? If false, explain and provide evidence.

But the 4 games I'm talking about are during that 2 year period YOU brought up. YOU are the one that decided to bring that up, and I showed you how with help (just Penny Hardaway) Shaq's numbers changed significantly. This is all during the same 2 year period that YOU chose. But you keep saying Ewing shut him down, when he didn't. Did he get the better of a 2nd and 3rd year Shaq with the help of Oakley? Yes

What happened when Shaq got Penny in the same Period that were talking about? Shaq goes from 39% FG shooting to 59%. Please, tell me how he's shutting Shaq down? YOU'RE the one claiming such in the period YOU provided. Yet I'm the one showing you otherwise in the SAME time frame, but now you say it WASNT in Ewings prime? Cmon....

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 09:32 PM
But the 4 games I'm talking about are during that 2 year period YOU brought up. YOU are the one that decided to bring that up, and I showed you how with help (just Penny Hardaway) Shaq's numbers changed significantly. This is all during the same 2 year period that YOU chose. But you keep saying Ewing shut him down, when he didn't. Did he get the better of a 2nd and 3rd year Shaq with the help of Oakley? Yes

What happened when Shaq got Penny in the same Period that were talking about? Shaq goes from 39% FG shooting to 59%. Please, tell me how he's shutting Shaq down? YOU'RE the one claiming such in the period YOU provided. Yet I'm the one showing you otherwise in the SAME time frame, but now you say it WASNT in Ewings prime? Cmon....

Okay, you still aren't posting any numbers.

Can I ask a different question? What 3 years are you using for prime Shaq?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 09:43 PM
Okay, you still aren't posting any numbers.

Can I ask a different question? What 3 years are you using for prime Shaq?

I did post the numbers tho, and they were in the 2 year period that you Provided.

"Shaq shot 48/81 vs Ewing, good for 59.25%.

During those last 4 games of the 8 game stretch:

Shaq: 29 PPG 13 Rbs per game

Ewing: 31PPG 12 Rbs per game"

1999-2000 to 2001-2002 Shaq

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 10:06 PM
I did post the numbers tho, and they were in the 2 year period that you Provided.

"Shaq shot 48/81 vs Ewing, good for 59.25%.

During those last 4 games of the 8 game stretch:

Shaq: 29 PPG 13 Rbs per game

Ewing: 31PPG 12 Rbs per game"

1999-2000 to 2001-2002 Shaq

Okay, thank you. :)

This is Shaq's season averages for his first 3 seasons in the NBA.
http://i.imgur.com/UXUdYTC.jpg

This is the 3 year peak you want to use for Shaq.
http://i.imgur.com/beMq3mY.jpg

Well, compare his first 3 years with the 3 year prime you assigned him.

Shaq averaged 1 point less, but had a .593 TS% in his first 3 years than he did the 3 years you assigned him! Not to mention, Shaq has virtually identical numbers like I've been saying all along! :laugh:

You're saying the reason why Shaq was contained to .502 ts% in the 8 game matchup is because Shaq's team sucked his first 3 years. Well, we can both agree (hopefully) that the 99-00, 00-01, and 01-02 Lakers was leaps and bounds more talented than the Orlando Magic team, correct? What impact did this have on Shaq's individual offensive numbers? Absolutely nothing. :laugh2:

Can you concede now that Shaq's team had no baring on his offense and that Shaq's offense is virtually identical his first 3 years as it was in the 3 years you assigned him? I already did the work for you and posted the numbers, so just point out which offensive numbers are leaps and bounds superior...

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 10:17 PM
Okay, thank you. :)

This is Shaq's season averages for his first 3 seasons in the NBA.
http://i.imgur.com/UXUdYTC.jpg

This is the 3 year peak you want to use for Shaq.
http://i.imgur.com/beMq3mY.jpg

Well, compare his first 3 years with the 3 year prime you assigned him.

Shaq averaged 1 point less, but had a .593 TS% in his first 3 years than he did the 3 years you assigned him! Not to mention, Shaq has virtually identical numbers like I've been saying all along! :laugh:

You're saying the reason why Shaq was contained to .502 ts% in the 8 game matchup is because Shaq's team sucked his first 3 years. Well, we can both agree (hopefully) that the 99-00, 00-01, and 01-02 Lakers was leaps and bounds more talented than the Orlando Magic team, correct? What impact did this have on Shaq's individual offensive numbers? Absolutely nothing. :laugh2:

Can you concede now that Shaq's team had no baring on his offense and that Shaq's offense is virtually identical his first 3 years as it was in the 3 years you assigned him? I already did the work for you and posted the numbers, so just point out which offensive numbers are leaps and bounds superior...

You keep repeating that, but you ignore the fact that during the 2nd half of that 8 game matchup (the last 4 games) Shaq's #s changed significantly. He went from shooting 39% in the first 4 games of that matchup (where skiles was #2) to shooting 59% in the last 4 games of that matchup (where penny was #2). I mean, that's the same time period you provided right?

It only proves my point that Shaq indeed was better when the team got better as well. I'm giving you #s that Shaq put up against Ewing specifically, an Ewing you first stated was in his prime and a Shaq that was in his 2nd and 3rd year..

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 10:27 PM
You keep repeating that, but you ignore the fact that during the 2nd half of that 8 game matchup (the last 4 games) Shaq's #s changed significantly. He went from shooting 39% in the first 4 games of that matchup (where skiles was #2) to shooting 59% in the last 4 games of that matchup (where penny was #2). I mean, that's the same time period you provided right?

It only proves my point that Shaq indeed was better when the team got better as well. I'm giving you #s that Shaq put up against Ewing specifically, an Ewing you first stated was in his prime and a Shaq that was in his 2nd and 3rd year..

Are you serious right now? :laugh:

Of course I'm showing you 3 seasons worth of stats and comparing it to the "superior offensive Shaq" 3 year prime you gave him.

Your premise is that Shaq's team sucked. You use 4 games to show how his team improved and so Shaq himself improved. I'm PROVING that Shaq, no matter how good or poor his teammates were, had virtually identical regular season averages.

I even posted the peaks so you could point out how the peak you assigned him was superior to his first 3. You just ignore the question and instead focus on 4 games from the 8 game head-to-head that I pointed out.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 10:29 PM
Question: (Not in relation to the 4 games you want to bring up) Was Shaq virtually just as dominant offensively his first 3 season in the NBA as he was the 3 year peak you assigned him? Go back and look at the peaks I posted. It's easy. Please forget that Ewing existed in the NBA when answering that question. We can get to Ewing immediately after you answer the question in big bold red font.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 10:50 PM
Also worth noting, that Shaq's DRtg went from 103 in 93-95, to 98.33 in 2000-2002. Also,

Shaq 93-95: DRtg 103, PER 26.67, AST% 10.93, TOV% 11.83, OWS 8.73, W/S 48 .215, OBPM 3.6, DBPM 1.63, BPM 5.23, VORP 5.63


Shaq 2000-2002: DRtg 98.33, PER 30.17, AST% 18.17, TOV% 10.13, OWS 10.67, W/S 48 .263, OBPM 5.8, DBPM 2.2, BPM 8, VORP 7.2

You asked to show you statistical improvements from 93-95 to 00'-02'. There.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 10:53 PM
Why would I ignore how he completely raped the rest of the league? Why wouldn't I specifically bring up how he did vs Ewing, when It's Ewing he's going up against? :laugh:

Yes, Shaq raped all centers in his path (except Ben?). Is that what you want to hear? Why would I ignore #s vs Ewing, when that's who he is going to face?

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:01 PM
Why would I ignore how he completely raped the rest of the league? Why wouldn't I specifically bring up how he did vs Ewing, when It's Ewing he's going up against? :laugh:

Yes, Shaq raped all centers in his path (except Ben?). Is that what you want to hear? Why would I ignore #s vs Ewing, when that's who he is going to face?

You can bring up how he did versus Ewing... I'm questioning Shaq's offensive game between the first 3 season in comparison to the 3 you assigned him. You said his 3 year peak you assigned Shaq was more dominant offensively than his first 3 years in Orlando. You also used teammates as reason for Shaq shooting a .502 ts% against end of prime Ewing.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:05 PM
Here is how this discussion is going so far:

LG: Yes, Ewing contained Shaq to .502 ts% the first 8 games. But Shaq improved offensively from 99-02. Also, when you look at the last 4 games of the 8 game head-to-head you posted, Shaq did way better because he had better teammates.

RR: If it's true that Shaq's offensive game improves when he has better teammates, then why are his first 3 NBA offensive numbers identical to his 3 year prime numbers you assigned him? (posts the 2x 3 year peaks for comparison)

LG: Umm... But the last 4 games, Shaq did better because he had better teammates...

RR: Okay, I heard you. You said Shaq improves when he has better teammates. Lakers Shaq had a lot more help than Orlando Magic Shaq, but why were Shaq's 3 year peak numbers with the Lakers the exact same as it was with the first 3 with the Orlando Magic if Shaq supposedly gets better offensively when he has better teammates?

LG: Uh mmmm.... Shaq did better when he had better teammates the last 4 games...

RR: :rolleyes:

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2016, 11:19 PM
Ewing is always discredited so much it's kinda disgusting. Lol

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:25 PM
This is how I'm seeing it:

RR: Shaq was held to .502 ts% vs Ewing his first 8 games.

LG: Yes, but if u break down those 8 games u posted: 1st 4 games with (with skiles as the #2 option) Shaq shot 39% (33/83 FG), but the next 4 games (with Penny as the #2 option) Shaq shot 59% (48/81 FG).

RR: Oh no, but that wasn't in Ewing's Prime...

LG: Then why did u provide that time period? Shaq improved immensely H2H vs Ewing with Penny>Skiles

RR: No he didn't, anyways teammates don't affect the way Shaq plays...

LG: :rolleyes:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:28 PM
Ewing is always discredited so much it's kinda disgusting. Lol

Yeah, but I'm not letting LG off the hook. I am forcing him to look at Shaq's regular season averages and show me how his 99-02 seasons are superior offensively to his 92-95. I'm still waiting for him to explain how Shaq got better offensively when his teammates got better when regular season stats say otherwise.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:29 PM
Ewing is always discredited so much it's kinda disgusting. Lol

:laugh2: and Kobe isn't being discredited here? You guys are acting like he's a non factor because Pippen/Kawhi will be on him, when he can still dominate a game in the Kobe Nash role...

If you're saying Kobe wouldn't be a good Robin to Batman, then IDK what to tell you. You act like being Robin is a bad thing... and you have arguably the most recognizable Robin...

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:30 PM
Yeah, but I'm not letting LG off the hook. I am forcing him to look at Shaq's regular season averages and show me how his 99-02 seasons are superior offensively to his 92-95. I'm still waiting for him to explain how Shaq got better offensively when his teammates got better when regular season stats say otherwise.

I mean, I only posted it in post #96....

If you want to talk about being let off the hook, IDK how you've gotten away with having Deron Williams > Magic lmao. I mean sure he was great, all the players in ATRD are, but all of a sudden he takes a dump on Magic because he was elite offensively and somehow, idk, you sold some on thinking he was an above average defender :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:30 PM
This is how I'm seeing it:

RR: Shaq was held to .502 ts% vs Ewing his first 8 games.

LG: Yes, but if u break down those 8 games u posted: 1st 4 games with (with skiles as the #2 option) Shaq shot 39% (33/83 FG), but the next 4 games (with Penny as the #2 option) Shaq shot 59% (48/81 FG).

RR: Oh no, but that wasn't in Ewing's Prime...

LG: Then why did u provide that time period? Shaq improved immensely H2H vs Ewing with Penny>Skiles

RR: No he didn't, anyways teammates don't affect the way Shaq plays...

LG: :rolleyes:

So you forgot about the part I posted Shaq's first 3 seasons in the NBA and compared it to Shaq's 99-01 seasons? You weren't looking when the numbers were virtually identical? :laugh:

At least admit you're ignoring the fact that Shaq's numbers are virtually identical regardless of being on a crappy Orlando team or on a stacked Lakers team. :laugh2:

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:34 PM
So you forgot about the part I posted Shaq's first 3 seasons in the NBA and compared it to Shaq's 99-01 seasons? You weren't looking when the numbers were virtually identical? :laugh:

At least admit you're ignoring the fact that Shaq's numbers are virtually identical regardless of being on a crappy Orlando team or on a stacked Lakers team. :laugh2:

So you're going to ignore the fact that with Penny as the #2 option, in the same 8 game period you posted, Shaq's #s improve significantly? Those are numbers vs EWING, the center YOU have.

I've AGREED that shaq raped his entire competition throughout his career though, It's why I traded for him. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:35 PM
I mean, I only posted it in post #96....

If you want to talk about being let off the hook, IDK how you've gotten away with having Deron Williams > Magic lmao. I mean sure he was great, all the players in ATRD are, but all of a sudden he takes a dump on Magic because he was elite offensively and somehow, idk, you sold some on thinking he was an above average defender :laugh2:

No you posted advanced stats that are reflective of the quality of the team (teammates). I never argued teammates... you did...

You also posted defensive stats for some reason... I only ever stated that offensively, Shaq's numbers are identical. Were Shaq's points per game similar? Was Shaq's ts% similar? Was Shaq's ft shooting similar? Was Shaq's range similar?

It's a no brainer that the higher quality of teammates, the better advanced team-oriented stats you'll have. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 11:40 PM
So you're going to ignore the fact that with Penny as the #2 option, in the same 8 game period you posted, Shaq's #s improve significantly? Those are numbers vs EWING, the center YOU have.

Of course I"m going to ignore that! :laugh: Why compare those 4 games to 3 seasons worth of stats that show it doesn't matter the quality of teammates Shaq had, he had virtually the same output. That has been my entire point all along.


I've AGREED that shaq raped his entire competition throughout his career though, It's why I traded for him. :laugh2:

And here it is. You agree that Shaq put up identical numbers his first 3 years as he did the 3 years you assigned his peak at.

We have nothing else to discuss about this topic since you concede that an end of prime Ewing defended a Shaq that was no different his first 3 years offensively as he was in 99-01 ("when he consistently raped everyone else").

Now, this doesn't necessarily PROVE Ewing will contain Shaq to a .502 ts% as he did in their head-to-head, it just sets a precedent that Shaq has always been dominant offensive (not improving or declining) but at 30+ years of age, Ewing was able to get the better of him.

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:51 PM
No you posted advanced stats that are reflective of the quality of the team (teammates). I never argued teammates... you did...

You also posted defensive stats for some reason... I only ever stated that offensively, Shaq's numbers are identical. Were Shaq's points per game similar? Was Shaq's ts% similar? Was Shaq's ft shooting similar? Was Shaq's range similar?

It's a no brainer that the higher quality of teammates, the better advanced team-oriented stats you'll have. :laugh2:

RR:

"Speaking of which, I don't think I mentioned the impact Ewing will have pulling Shaq away from the rim. It will allow Kawhi, Pippen, and Deron to score a lot more efficiently. "

"If Brand shoots the majority of his shots within 0-3 feet, in which he DID, how does that give Shaq room to work"

YOU said that, here you admit the players around you impact your game.

But here: "You also used teammates as reason for Shaq shooting a .502 ts% against end of prime Ewing."

You completely ignore teammates there.....why so?

Lakers + Giants
06-08-2016, 11:58 PM
Of course I"m going to ignore that! :laugh: Why compare those 4 games to 3 seasons worth of stats that show it doesn't matter the quality of teammates Shaq had, he had virtually the same output. That has been my entire point all along.



And here it is. You agree that Shaq put up identical numbers his first 3 years as he did the 3 years you assigned his peak at.

We have nothing else to discuss about this topic since you concede that an end of prime Ewing defended a Shaq that was no different his first 3 years offensively as he was in 99-01 ("when he consistently raped everyone else").

Now, this doesn't necessarily PROVE Ewing will contain Shaq to a .502 ts% as he did in their head-to-head, it just sets a precedent that Shaq has always been dominant offensive (not improving or declining) but at 30+ years of age, Ewing was able to get the better of him.

Yes, throughout his career he was dominant, I'm not disagreeing there. Thanks for admitting that.

I'm arguing that Shaq was able to still get his easily once he had help, in that same 8 game stretch in which you believe Ewing stopped Shaq lmao. The same 8 game stretch were Charles Oakley was able to help out on Shaq, because who was Shaq's PF? Oh that's right, you say teammates don't matter.

How did Shaq do vs Oakley & Ewing in the last 4 games of the same stretch you're talking about. Did he not immensely improve vs Ewing?!

You say Shaq was the same from 93-02, Yes, He did RAPE all other centers in that stretch. How did he do vs Ewing though? Oh that's right, you say those don't count. OK, how did he do in those last 4 games of the 8 game stretch you're talking about? Oh yea, that's right, you're ignoring that too. Why though? Those are vs EWING.

Last I checked this was Shaq vs Ewing wasn't it? But no, you want to make it Shaq vs the league? He raped everyone else too though? :laugh:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 12:43 AM
RR:

"Speaking of which, I don't think I mentioned the impact Ewing will have pulling Shaq away from the rim. It will allow Kawhi, Pippen, and Deron to score a lot more efficiently. "

"If Brand shoots the majority of his shots within 0-3 feet, in which he DID, how does that give Shaq room to work"

YOU said that, here you admit the players around you impact your game.

But here: "You also used teammates as reason for Shaq shooting a .502 ts% against end of prime Ewing."

You completely ignore teammates there.....why so?

Of course teammates impact who win's and loses on a team. I'm talking about Shaq's offensive production. Shaq had the same production with Scott Skiles has he did with Kobe Bryant. The numbers don't lie and even you admit they are consistent (meaning not superior or inferior by comparison).

What does change are the advanced stats that are team-oriented, but I never argued or made mention of those team-oriented stats because both our teams are different than the ones they played with our respective players.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 12:56 AM
Of course teammates impact who win's and loses on a team. I'm talking about Shaq's offensive production. Shaq had the same production with Scott Skiles has he did with Kobe Bryant. The numbers don't lie and even you admit they are consistent (meaning not superior or inferior by comparison).

What does change are the advanced stats that are team-oriented, but I never argued or made mention of those team-oriented stats because both our teams are different than the ones they played with our respective players.

But you're ignoring the whole point, Im admitting that with help Shaq's #s improved vs Ewing too, and You're saying they didn't..

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:09 AM
Yes, throughout his career he was dominant, I'm not disagreeing there. Thanks for admitting that.

I've said it all along that Shaq's offense was consistently dominant. You're the one that said it was superior later on after he was in LA though. You later back pedaled and admitted Shaq had the same offensive output after I posted his first 3 seasons in the NBA to your specified 3 year prime. :laugh2:


I'm arguing that Shaq was able to still get his easily once he had help, in that same 8 game stretch in which you believe Ewing stopped Shaq lmao. The same 8 game stretch were Charles Oakley was able to help out on Shaq, because who was Shaq's PF? Oh that's right, you say teammates don't matter.

No, you're taking what I said out of context. I said it didn't matter WHO played with Shaq, he had identical offensive production. Which, the numbers clearly showed. You even agreed they are virtually identical. Also, I actually think Shaq would do better against Ewing than he did his first 3 seasons, but not because of his offense, but because he did improve defensively. So while Shaq would still be limited (as he was his first 3 years when he was equally dominant in any other 3 years you want to use) by an old Ewing, I can argue that Ewing wasn't at peak prime when they played. He would have been able to score more and defend Shaq even better. This is where we can agree to disagree as it's pure speculation and we are clearly biased.


How did Shaq do vs Oakley & Ewing in the last 4 games of the same stretch you're talking about. Did he not immensely improve vs Ewing?!

Last 4 games of the first 8 games Head-to-Head (Shaq’s 50+ win team)

Ewing: FG: 51/93 = .548%
O’Neal: FG: 48/81 = .592%
Ewing: PTS: 125/4 = 31.25 points per game
O’Neal: PTS: 115/4 = 28.75 points per game
Ewing: TS%: .598
O’Neal: TS%: .573

End of prime Ewing still outperformed Shaq, but I agree, to a lesser degree than the first 4 games.

Now then, how does having a better team around Shaq increase his efficiency and offensive output in a 4 game sample size? You agree that Shaq having an infinitely better team in LA didn't give Shaq a better efficiency or more points per game... You ignore the data that shows the help Shaq is irrelevant, he is going to consistently put up the same numbers.


You say Shaq was the same from 93-02,...

Offensively, yes. You saw the offensive production. They are identical. You agreed.


Last I checked this was Shaq vs Ewing wasn't it? But no, you want to make it Shaq vs the league? He raped everyone else too though? :laugh:

No, I wanted to show that your theory as to why Shaq was held to .502 ts% is NOT because Shaq's team sucked. I did that by comparing his "sucky Orlando Magic team" with the stacked "99-02 Lakers". By your logic, Shaq should be shooting .600 ts and higher, 40 points per game considering the Lakers had way more help than the Magic. He shouldn't average virtually the same offensive production with the Lakers as he did with the Magic if your theory is true that Shaq got better because of his teammates. Hopefully that sinks in now. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:15 AM
But you're ignoring the whole point, Im admitting that with help Shaq's #s improved vs Ewing too, and You're saying they didn't..

I can't agree because it was 4 games. This is the exact reason I compared a crappy Shaq team to an elite Shaq team (Lakers). If you're right that teammates help Shaq to do better offensively, then Shaq should average significantly better offensive stats because the Lakers were ridiculously talented. Why was Shaq's ts% better in Orlando his first 3 seasons than in his 3 year peak in LA? Didn't the Lakers have better teammates? Yes... so clearly the teammates isn't the variable that determines Shaq's offensive production. :laugh:

The real reason Shaq did better? Because at 31+ years old in 1994, Ewing was already out of his prime and he lost a step. If you look at the next 4 games after the 8 games I posted, this proves true even more. With more injuries, mileage, and time, Shaq continues to do better against Ewing. It's not because his team got so much better, it's because Ewing was already regressing noticeably by then.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 01:23 AM
I can't agree because it was 4 games. This is the exact reason I compared a crappy Shaq team to an elite Shaq team (Lakers). If you're right that teammates help Shaq to do better, then Shaq should average significantly better offensive stats because the Lakers were ridiculously talented. Why was Shaq's ts% better in Orlando his first 3 seasons than in his 3 year peak in LA? Didn't the Lakers have better teammates? Yes... so clearly the teammates isn't the variable that determines Shaq's offensive production. :laugh:

The real reason Shaq did better? Because at 31+ years old in 1994, Ewing was already out of his prime and he lost a step. If you look at the next 4 games after the 8 games I posted, this proves true even more. With more injuries, mileage, and time, Shaq continues to do better against Ewing. It's not because his team go so much better, it's because Ewing is breaking down.

WAIT WHAT?! You can't agree because it's a 4 game sample size?! Thats coming from the sample size YOU chose and have been so adamant about! Now all of a sudden you realize it's too small a sample size, and you can't accept it when YOU'RE the one that chose it! :laugh2:

That's the same sample size you've been saying proves Ewing could stop shaq...

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 01:27 AM
I've said it all along that Shaq's offense was consistently dominant. You're the one that said it was superior later on after he was in LA though. You later back pedaled and admitted Shaq had the same offensive output after I posted his first 3 seasons in the NBA to your specified 3 year prime. :laugh2:



No, you're taking what I said out of context. I said it didn't matter WHO played with Shaq, he had identical offensive production. Which, the numbers clearly showed. You even agreed they are virtually identical. Also, I actually think Shaq would do better against Ewing than he did his first 3 seasons, but not because of his offense, but because he did improve defensively. So while Shaq would still be limited (as he was his first 3 years when he was equally dominant in any other 3 years you want to use) by an old Ewing, I can argue that Ewing wasn't at peak prime when they played. He would have been able to score more and defend Shaq even better. This is where we can agree to disagree as it's pure speculation and we are clearly biased.


Last 4 games of the first 8 games Head-to-Head (Shaq’s 50+ win team)

Ewing: FG: 51/93 = .548%
O’Neal: FG: 48/81 = .592%
Ewing: PTS: 125/4 = 31.25 points per game
O’Neal: PTS: 115/4 = 28.75 points per game
Ewing: TS%: .598
O’Neal: TS%: .573

End of prime Ewing still outperformed Shaq, but I agree, to a lesser degree than the first 4 games.

Now then, how does having a better team around Shaq increase his efficiency and offensive output in a 4 game sample size? You agree that Shaq having an infinitely better team in LA didn't give Shaq a better efficiency or more points per game... You ignore the data that shows the help Shaq is irrelevant, he is going to consistently put up the same numbers.



Offensively, yes. You saw the offensive production. They are identical. You agreed.



No, I wanted to show that your theory as to why Shaq was held to .502 ts% is NOT because Shaq's team sucked. I did that by comparing his "sucky Orlando Magic team" with the stacked "99-02 Lakers". By your logic, Shaq should be shooting .600 ts and higher, 40 points per game considering the Lakers had way more help than the Magic. He shouldn't average virtually the same offensive production with the Lakers as he did with the Magic if your theory is true that Shaq got better because of his teammates. Hopefully that sinks in now. :laugh2:

Yes, and I already said I agreed the Shaq that Ewing faced was offensively the same, but of course I agree, cuz like I said, in those last 4 games of the sample size you provided, the same sample size you said Ewing was in his prime, Shaq was offensively Dominant vs Ewing. While Shaq in improved defensively in the peak I said. So now You're agreeing that Ewing couldn't stop Shaq, OK I AGREE.

Also, you agreed that Shaq got better defensively, yes, I agree. So a prime Shaq would bend Ewing over his Knee and spank his ***, YES, I AGREE.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:30 AM
WAIT WHAT?! You can't agree because it's a 4 game sample size?! Thats coming from the sample size YOU chose and have been so adamant about! Now all of a sudden you realize it's too small a sample size, and you can't accept it when YOU'RE the one that chose it! :laugh2:

That's the same sample size you've been saying proves Ewing could stop shaq...

1.) I gave a 2 year sample size when Ewing was ending his prime to show that he could make Shaq work for his points. You agree that Shaq's offensive repertoire and offensive production is no different than his 99-02 years. I disproved that teammates is the reason why Shaq did better in the latter 4 games because Ewing was already regressing.

2.) I never said Ewing would stop Shaq. Only that Ewing (along with Sheed/Tyson) would make life incredibly difficult on him like he did when he was an old man in the first 2 year head-to-head seasons.

3.) The sample size isn't the issue. It's your reasoning. You said it's because Shaq had better teammates that he did better the last 4 games. Do you not understand the difference? :laugh:

If you showed me offensive production from Shaq's first 3 years with the "crappy Magic team" and then showed me offensive production from Shaq's Lakers team and Shaq scored noticeably more points on higher efficiency, then it would give your 4 game sample size some validity that Shaq did better because he had better teammates. The fact of the matter is, Laker's Shaq is identical offensively to Magic Shaq in spite of having astronomically better teammates. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:37 AM
Why only look at 4 games, when we have 10+ years to compare Shaq's consistent offensive numbers?

Unfortunately, we don't have any relevant head-to-head prime Ewing and prime Shaq numbers. I just showed that an end of prime Ewing held Shaq to .502 ts%, but I wish I had 3 seasons of ACTUAL peak prime to compare. I wouldn't ignore the entirety of their prime head-to-head in favor of the 8 games I posted...

The_Jamal
06-09-2016, 02:08 AM
For some reason, I actually skimmed through all 8 pages of that ********. Voting LG in 6 for several reasons:

1. LG has the better team construction and good matchups in his favor
2. HCA
3. RR using worthless H-H match-ups is 95% of this thread. 8 games? With Prime Ewing vs Baby Shaq? Gtfo, that's horrible

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 02:09 AM
1. How did you disprove that Shaq did better vs Ewing specifically when shaq had better teammates. The stats prove I'm right yet you keep saying you disproved it! How is that even possible?!

2. You said he held shaq to a .502TS%, indicating he shut him down. Don't try to deny that now lmao...

3. So because my reasoning proves my point and it disproves yours it's not valid? So basically if it's not what you want to see, it's not valid? Wow, makes sense....

4. Yes, his numbers are the same vs the rest of the league! I said that, we both agreed with that. However, you refuse to acknowledge how Shaq's #s improved vs Ewing specifically. I'm talking about specifically vs Ewing, not the rest of the league. vs the Center that you have, Ewing. Shaq was able to dominate Ewing, in the sample size you provided. But now all of a sudden since it's not what you want to see, since it disproves your point and proves mine you have decided that it's not prime Ewing anymore. Then why bring it up in the first place? Because you thought it proved your point? But as soon as I show you statistical proof that shaq's numbers improved vs Ewing, still in the same sample size you provided, the numbers don't matter anymore? :laugh:

You claim it's not a big enough sample size, but the whole time you've been bringing up that 8 game sample size, a sample size you chose, a sample size you manipulated to benefit you, the same sample size I was able to manipulate to prove my point. All of a sudden, that sample size Isn't big enough... Wow. :laugh2:

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 02:12 AM
For some reason, I actually skimmed through all 8 pages of that ********. Voting LG in 6 for several reasons:

1. LG has the better team construction and good matchups in his favor
2. HCA
3. RR using worthless H-H match-ups is 95% of this thread. 8 games? With Prime Ewing vs Baby Shaq? Gtfo, that's horrible

OMG thank you..... This is what I've been saying. You can't complain about a post-prime pippen vs kobe, and then say Prime Ewing > Baby Shaq...

He asks for proof that Shaq got better, I provided proof that Shaq got better vs Ewing! The center that he has, yet that's not enough, because the #s remain the same vs the rest of the league. Yet they improve vs HIS center! wtf, cmon..

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 02:15 AM
Anyway, out for the night, will respond to more tomorrow. Will reply to some on my phone, bigger quotes will have to wait til I can use the computer, cuz doing it on a cellphone is a pain in the ***.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 02:47 AM
1. How did you disprove that Shaq did better vs Ewing specifically when shaq had better teammates. The stats prove I'm right yet you keep saying you disproved it! How is that even possible?!

I disproved your REASONING that it wasn't because of better teammates that Shaq did better. Ewing aging is a much better factor considering Shaq produced the same on the Magic as he did on the Lakers (offensively).


2. You said he held shaq to a .502TS%, indicating he shut him down. Don't try to deny that now lmao...

Which is true... I posted the numbers. If you want to use the term "shut down", by all means, that's you saying it, not me. Shaq got his, he just did so on subpar ts% in the latter 2 years of Ewing's prime.


3. So because my reasoning proves my point and it disproves yours it's not valid? So basically if it's not what you want to see, it's not valid? Wow, makes sense....

You didn't prove your theory correct. Laker Shaq poted the same numbers as Magic Shaq. You agreed now you disagree again.


4. Yes, his numbers are the same vs the rest of the league! I said that, we both agreed with that. However, you refuse to acknowledge how Shaq's #s improved vs Ewing specifically. I'm talking about specifically vs Ewing, not the rest of the league. vs the Center that you have, Ewing. Shaq was able to dominate Ewing, in the sample size you provided. But now all of a sudden since it's not what you want to see, since it disproves your point and proves mine you have decided that it's not prime Ewing anymore. Then why bring it up in the first place? Because you thought it proved your point? But as soon as I show you statistical proof that shaq's numbers improved vs Ewing, still in the same sample size you provided, the numbers don't matter anymore? :laugh:


Okay, now you agree for Shaq's first 3 seasons in the NBA they are the same as the 3 year peak you used for Shaq in LA, in spite of the elite teammates Shaq had. We are on the same page now.


You claim it's not a big enough sample size, but the whole time you've been bringing up that 8 game sample size, a sample size you chose, a sample size you manipulated to benefit you, the same sample size I was able to manipulate to prove my point. All of a sudden, that sample size Isn't big enough... Wow. :laugh2:

Nope, reread. I said I'm going to look at the 2x 3 year peaks to decide if your theory was right. Clearly it's not, otherwise you'd prove that because Shaq had more help in 99-02, he had significantly superior numbers than his Orlando Magic days.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 02:49 AM
OMG thank you..... This is what I've been saying. You can't complain about a post-prime pippen vs kobe, and then say Prime Ewing > Baby Shaq...

He asks for proof that Shaq got better, I provided proof that Shaq got better vs Ewing! The center that he has, yet that's not enough, because the #s remain the same vs the rest of the league. Yet they improve vs HIS center! wtf, cmon..

I asked you to prove your theory that Shaq gets better offensively when he had better teammates. You were unable to do that. You ignored the 2x 3 peak seasons and rely on 4 games. If the 2x 3 peak seasons validated what the 4 games says, then you might be onto something, unfortunately for you, it doesn't.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 02:50 AM
For some reason, I actually skimmed through all 8 pages of that ********. Voting LG in 6 for several reasons:

1. LG has the better team construction and good matchups in his favor
2. HCA
3. RR using worthless H-H match-ups is 95% of this thread. 8 games? With Prime Ewing vs Baby Shaq? Gtfo, that's horrible

Was baby Shaq inferior to big boy Shaq in offensive production? I pointed out Shaq's first 3 years in the NBA and even LG agrees they are identical to his 99-02 peak. His offensive production didn't change.

roshan3ai
06-09-2016, 11:26 AM
I asked you to prove your theory that Shaq gets better offensively when he had better teammates. You were unable to do that. You ignored the 2x 3 peak seasons and rely on 4 games. If the 2x 3 peak seasons validated what the 4 games says, then you might be onto something, unfortunately for you, it doesn't.

Are you telling me rookie Shaq was just as effective offensively as he was in 1995 when he went to the Finals with Penny? That's the same exact offensive production?

You'll literally say anything to win the argument :laugh2: There's a reason this thread looks like LG+the field vs. you.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 11:51 AM
I'm starting to think Shaq should just start going #1 overall in these games. He seems to give teams even more of an advantage than MJ. I voted for La Habra but if you look at RR's team he has Ewing (elite defender), Sheed (great help defender), Tyson (dpoy) and we are all kinda looking at his team and thinking the same thing "Yeah nice team but Shaq's gonna eat them up anyway."

xxplayerxx23
06-09-2016, 12:55 PM
Such a shame man. Ewing gets seen as such a garbage player, I mean the one significant advantage he has is Shaq vs Ewing but Ewing will still get his. We slow down option 2, we slow down option 3, option 4 has had trouble vs our option 5. Well I've been in enough of these games to know once someone starts the Shaq is going to win the series everyone steps in and says the same. Nice run RR

Sadds The Gr8
06-09-2016, 01:11 PM
For some reason, I actually skimmed through all 8 pages of that ********. Voting LG in 6 for several reasons:

1. LG has the better team construction and good matchups in his favor
2. HCA
3. RR using worthless H-H match-ups is 95% of this thread. 8 games? With Prime Ewing vs Baby Shaq? Gtfo, that's horrible
God bless u for reading that dreck. No way I was doing it. Me and raps tapped after like 3 pages, and raps is a guy that LOVES to argue

valade16
06-09-2016, 01:21 PM
I'm starting to think Shaq should just start going #1 overall in these games. He seems to give teams even more of an advantage than MJ. I voted for La Habra but if you look at RR's team he has Ewing (elite defender), Sheed (great help defender), Tyson (dpoy) and we are all kinda looking at his team and thinking the same thing "Yeah nice team but Shaq's gonna eat them up anyway."

I agree. Shaq was very good obviously, but it's not like he'll be dropping 30 on 70% against Ewing's 15 on 35%. Ewing will be a productive player in the series even if Shaq outplays him.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:25 PM
Are you telling me rookie Shaq was just as effective offensively as he was in 1995 when he went to the Finals with Penny? That's the same exact offensive production?

You'll literally say anything to win the argument :laugh2: There's a reason this thread looks like LG+the field vs. you.

Can you post offensive numbers from Shaq that show he got noticeably superior as the longer he played in comparison to his first 3 seasons?

What numbers did he vastly increase his offensive production?

Shaq's First 3 seasons in the NBA
http://i.imgur.com/04Q5U8L.jpg

Shaq's 3 peak prime assigned by LG
http://i.imgur.com/pVQS5dp.jpg

In Shaq's first 3 years, he had a .593 ts%, and in the peak years he had a .580 ts% btw.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:27 PM
I'm starting to think Shaq should just start going #1 overall in these games. He seems to give teams even more of an advantage than MJ. I voted for La Habra but if you look at RR's team he has Ewing (elite defender), Sheed (great help defender), Tyson (dpoy) and we are all kinda looking at his team and thinking the same thing "Yeah nice team but Shaq's gonna eat them up anyway."

Totally agree.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 01:29 PM
What do people think Kawhi would score on Peja out of curiosity? I've shown great defenders couldn't really shut down Kawhi, he was still able to be an efficient scorer. If Manson Family exploited that matchup, how would Peja or La Habra limit him?

roshan3ai
06-09-2016, 02:27 PM
Can you post offensive numbers from Shaq that show he got noticeably superior as the longer he played in comparison to his first 3 seasons?

What numbers did he vastly increase his offensive production?

Shaq's First 3 seasons in the NBA
http://i.imgur.com/04Q5U8L.jpg

Shaq's 3 peak prime assigned by LG
http://i.imgur.com/pVQS5dp.jpg

In Shaq's first 3 years, he had a .593 ts%, and in the peak years he had a .580 ts% btw.

Wait, so we can use 1994-1995 now? So the three 41 point games and the 38 point game are counting now? What happened to just the first two years?

The only reason that your stats have him at a 50% TS% is because of his games his rookie year. Those plummeted his shooting percentages. The next 8 matchups, Shaq looked great. And you can't tell me that he didn't get better from rookie year to sophomore year. That's the whole point.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 02:36 PM
I asked you to prove your theory that Shaq gets better offensively when he had better teammates. You were unable to do that. You ignored the 2x 3 peak seasons and rely on 4 games. If the 2x 3 peak seasons validated what the 4 games says, then you might be onto something, unfortunately for you, it doesn't.

I proved how shaq got better vs Ewing in the time frame you chose. But you say hes the same from 93-02. I proved how he got better vs Ewing...I acknowledged that he raped the league equally from 93-02, i never said he didn't get better. But I keep bringing up How he improved vs Ewing specifically, and in the time frame you chose, yet you deny it? Why? Idk, but the numbers prove I'm right.

You're the one that chose that sample size though :laugh2:. Unfortuantely for me? Why? You chose that sample size and tried to run with it.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 02:41 PM
I'm starting to think Shaq should just start going #1 overall in these games. He seems to give teams even more of an advantage than MJ. I voted for La Habra but if you look at RR's team he has Ewing (elite defender), Sheed (great help defender), Tyson (dpoy) and we are all kinda looking at his team and thinking the same thing "Yeah nice team but Shaq's gonna eat them up anyway."

I mean it's fair if you can just say Pippen is going to make Kobe a non factor, when Kobe was able to go stretches dominating in the Kobe Nash role. I mean sure, they can limit his scoring, but when he played the facilitator role he was solid too.

Also, Williams was good but you can't sell him as a player of Magics caliber...

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 03:37 PM
I mean it's fair if you can just say Pippen is going to make Kobe a non factor, when Kobe was able to go stretches dominating in the Kobe Nash role. I mean sure, they can limit his scoring, but when he played the facilitator role he was solid too.

Also, Williams was good but you can't sell him as a player of Magics caliber...

The issue with Kobe is that he has to spend his entire time guarding a much bigger physical beast in Pippen. Then when you factor in Pippen and Kawhi will take shifts on Kobe any time he steps foot on the floor, how efficient of a scorer do you think Kobe would be?

Kobe will get his 20+ points, I just think it would kill his efficiency as he is worn out on both ends of the floor.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 03:45 PM
Wait, so we can use 1994-1995 now? So the three 41 point games and the 38 point game are counting now? What happened to just the first two years?

Go to basketball-reference, when you select the 92-93, 93-94, 94-95, it shows up as "93-95" (93 season, 94 season, 95 season). I used the first 2 seasons because Shaq was virtually the same offensively as he was in 99-02, and because they were in the tail end of Ewing's prime. This shows an old Ewing doing a great job defensively on Shaq. He still wasn't even at his peak. The 95 season is clearly out of his prime, so those head-to-head numbers become irrelevant.


The only reason that your stats have him at a 50% TS% is because of his games his rookie year. Those plummeted his shooting percentages. The next 8 matchups, Shaq looked great. And you can't tell me that he didn't get better from rookie year to sophomore year. That's the whole point.

You may have a point, if it weren't for Shaq's actual season stats being virtually identical from his first 2 or 3 years in Orlando as they were in his 99-02 prime. I posted the numbers. Do you deny they are almost exactly the same? I know you didn't answer how his 99-02 offensive numbers destroy his "rookie" and sophomore season offensive numbers. The numbers clearly prove "baby Shaq" offensively wasn't any more or less explosive than he was in 99-02. You can have your opinion, but when stats destroy it, you turn a blind eye.

valade16
06-09-2016, 03:47 PM
I think it's funny that this matchup has 10 pages of posts and the other matchup has 10 total posts :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 03:49 PM
I think it's funny that this matchup has 10 pages of posts and the other matchup has 10 total posts :laugh2:

Yeah, I was thinking about that earlier. :laugh2:

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 03:51 PM
Yet you're ignoring the stats that prove he got better vs Ewing. You keep saying he was the same from 93-02 but he improved significantly vs Ewing alone. As soon as Shaq got penny, look at how he was offensively dominant vs Ewing. That's still in the 8 games you provided..

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 03:52 PM
I think it's funny that this matchup has 10 pages of posts and the other matchup has 10 total posts :laugh2:

Beforw I even posted this thread had double digit posts lmao

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 03:53 PM
Yet you're ignoring the stats that prove he got better vs Ewing. You keep saying he was the same from 93-02 but he improved significantly vs Ewing alone. As soon as Shaq got penny, look at how he was offensively dominant vs Ewing. That's still in the 8 games you provided..

Yes, because when looking at Shaq's historic career averages, it destroys your argument that "Shaq got better when he had better teammates." If I can prove teammates haven't affected Shaq's career offensive production, which I did prove and you agreed, then it discredits your reason for why Shaq did better in the latter 4 games of the first 2 seasons. It gives credence to my theory that the older Ewing got, the more steps he lost. This doesn't just make sense logically, I have the stats to validate it.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 04:01 PM
Yes, because when looking at Shaq's historic career averages, it destroys your argument that "Shaq got better when he had better teammates." If I can prove teammates haven't affected Shaq's career offensive production, which I did prove and you agreed, then it discredits your reason for why Shaq did better in the latter 4 games of the first 2 seasons. It gives credence to my theory that the older Ewing got, the more steps he lost. This doesn't just make sense logically, I have the stats to prove it.

As do I. I proved it, vs Ewing he improved his FG% by 20...and it was in the time period you chose. It so happens that penny impacted Shaqs game vs Ewing. I'm not talking about the rest of the league, im saying he raped the rest of the league evenly, so dont strawman me lmao.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 05:08 PM
As do I. I proved it, vs Ewing he improved his FG% by 20...and it was in the time period you chose. It so happens that penny impacted Shaqs game vs Ewing. I'm not talking about the rest of the league, im saying he raped the rest of the league evenly, so dont strawman me lmao.

You did show that in 4 games, Shaq was still outperformed by Ewing, but not as much as he was the first 4 games.

However, I showed 10 seasons of Shaq's career numbers to counter your 4 games where you claim "it's because Shaq had better teammates". One carries more weight. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 05:10 PM
The issue with Kobe is that he has to spend his entire time guarding a much bigger physical beast in Pippen. Then when you factor in Pippen and Kawhi will take shifts on Kobe any time he steps foot on the floor, how efficient of a scorer do you think Kobe would be?

Kobe will get his 20+ points, I just think it would kill his efficiency as he is worn out on both ends of the floor.

I wanted to bump this, I'm not sure you saw my response to your post. I'm curious how you counter this.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 05:37 PM
You did show that in 4 games, Shaq was still outperformed by Ewing, but not as much as he was the first 4 games.

However, I showed 10 seasons of Shaq's career numbers to counter your 4 games where you claim "it's because Shaq had better teammates". One carries more weight. :laugh2:

Yea but you're the one that chose that sample size though, i showed you how it was a completely different story once Shaq had Penny and how the numbers changed vs Ewing specifically.



I wanted to bump this, I'm not sure you saw my response to your post. I'm curious how you counter this.

Ive mentioned several times before already that kobe would be playing his facilitator aka Kobe Nash role. He wouldn't need to score at will and Id be stupid if I tried to force the issue with Pippen/Kawhi guarding him. Also, as i posted before, Kobe could handle sharing playmaking duties with Billups. Kobe could then go attack mode when needed.

roshan3ai
06-09-2016, 05:51 PM
Go to basketball-reference, when you select the 92-93, 93-94, 94-95, it shows up as "93-95" (93 season, 94 season, 95 season). I used the first 2 seasons because Shaq was virtually the same offensively as he was in 99-02, and because they were in the tail end of Ewing's prime. This shows an old Ewing doing a great job defensively on Shaq. He still wasn't even at his peak. The 95 season is clearly out of his prime, so those head-to-head numbers become irrelevant.


You may have a point, if it weren't for Shaq's actual season stats being virtually identical from his first 2 or 3 years in Orlando as they were in his 99-02 prime. I posted the numbers. Do you deny they are almost exactly the same? I know you didn't answer how his 99-02 offensive numbers destroy his "rookie" and sophomore season offensive numbers. The numbers clearly prove "baby Shaq" offensively wasn't any more or less explosive than he was in 99-02. You can have your opinion, but when stats destroy it, you turn a blind eye.

Ewing's stats were virtually the same in the 94 season and the 95 season, yet one of those years you considered tail end of his prime and the next you ignored with some garbage excuse about mileage on his legs. How do you not understand how stupid this is?

Shaq in 99-02 didn't turn the ball over as much. Shaq in 99-02 was a way better passer (18.3% AST% vs 10.3% AST%). He was better at passing out of double teams later in his career. His rookie year he had a 16% TO% which was his worst until he was 35. He was a better, more well rounded offensive player later in his career.

It's pathetic what you're trying to do. There's no real reason to leave out Ewings 94-95 season and you won't include it because it basically destroys your 8 game sample size, Baby Shaq, 50.2% TS% number. Nice try though.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 06:10 PM
Rosh, everything you just said I have posted as well. It's one thing to debate, its another thing to deny/ignore those numbers. Hes literally ignoring them because he asked for them, but once he saw they weren't favorable to him he decided they weren't acceptable. It wasn't what he wanted to see, despite asking for those numbers, so he ignores them because they benefit my team and prove my point.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 06:14 PM
Hes also the one that provided that 8 game sample size and later said it didn't prove **** because the sample size was too small. Yet he's the one saying it proves Ewing can stop Shaq because of that same sample size he provided, yet later complained about.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:14 PM
Ewing's stats were virtually the same in the 94 season and the 95 season, yet one of those years you considered tail end of his prime and the next you ignored with some garbage excuse about mileage on his legs. How do you not understand how stupid this is?

Nope. Not even close. He played through injuries. His defense slowed down, his offense slowed down, and his efficiency took a hit. That tends to happen as a center when they are out of prime, with tons of mileage, and being 32+ years of age.


Shaq in 99-02 didn't turn the ball over as much. Shaq in 99-02 was a way better passer (18.3% AST% vs 10.3% AST%). He was better at passing out of double teams later in his career. His rookie year he had a 16% TO% which was his worst until he was 35. He was a better, more well rounded offensive player later in his career.

Fair points.


It's pathetic what you're trying to do. There's no real reason to leave out Ewings 94-95 season and you won't include it because it basically destroys your 8 game sample size, Baby Shaq, 50.2% TS% number. Nice try though.


GM's are suppose to provide relevant evidence to make our cases. If you don't think a piece of information is relevant, don't buy it... but if you don't like playing the game, don't play. I understand Valade beat you, it doesn't mean you should go run and be someone else's co-gm. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:19 PM
Hes also the one that provided that 8 game sample size and later said it didn't prove **** because the sample size was too small. Yet he's the one saying it proves Ewing can stop Shaq because of that same sample size he provided, yet later complained about.

You know that isn't true. I said why choose 4 game sample size when we have 10+ seasons of Shaq's career numbers which prove that it didn't matter who his teammates were, he was going to produce the same offensive production. Strawman argument. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:24 PM
Ive mentioned several times before already that kobe would be playing his facilitator aka Kobe Nash role. He wouldn't need to score at will and Id be stupid if I tried to force the issue with Pippen/Kawhi guarding him. Also, as i posted before, Kobe could handle sharing playmaking duties with Billups. Kobe could then go attack mode when needed.

You aren't Kobe Bryant though. When has Kobe ever NOT gotten his... especially prime Kobe? Kobe is a more than capable facilitator, but does that suddenly mean he is going to be more productive when he has to guard Pippen on defense? Or when Kawhi alternates on him? I think his role as facilitator would be just as difficult as him scoring seeing as Kawhi/Pippen are still on him, and he is worn out on defense being bullied by Pippen.

Also, you never answered: Do you plan on playing Kobe on Pippen 1v1?

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:26 PM
Also, Ewing will be pulling Shaq away from the post. Ewing was a fantastic mid-range shooter. Kawhi and Ewing can play pnr together. Shaq was not the best pnr defender, and Peja probably doesn't have the first clue to what pnr defense entails.

Do Shaq/Peja switch on defense? Do they stay on their man?

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 06:27 PM
You know that isn't true. I said why choose 4 game sample size when we have 10+ seasons of Shaq's career numbers which prove that it didn't matter who his teammates were, he was going to produce the same offensive production. Strawman argument. :laugh2:

Ironic. Considering you're the one that used that sample size to "prove" your point, then once you get called out for it you say that same sample size that YOU provided you say it isn't valid. Then why did YOU bring it up in the first place, and try to run with it?

Earlier in this thread that's all you brought up, but now it's not valid? I get you regret it, but admit you were wrong bringing it up. :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:30 PM
Ironic. Considering you're the one that used that sample size to "prove" your point, then once you get called out for it you say that same sample size that YOU provided you say it isn't valid. Then why did YOU bring it up in the first place, and try to run with it?

Earlier in this thread that's all you brought up, but now it's not valid? I get you regret it, but admit you were wrong bringing it up. :laugh2:

It's not invalid because of the sample size. If 4 games was all we had to base it off of, you would have a case. It doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong however... Some will agree, some will disagree.

The reason your theory is invalid, is because I showed more than 4 games (10+ seasons) that debunked your theory. If you showed me 10+ seasons of prime Ewing going at it against prime Shaq and Shaq abused him, then that would completely debunk my 8 game sample size, wouldn't it? The reason why Shaq always put up similar numbers is because he was physically dominant, bot because his teammates necessarily brought out the best in him.

We can agree to disagree on this point, can we move on to the other match ups?

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 06:35 PM
Another question: Since Kobe is going to play facilitator and he's going to change his entire mentality from who he was in his peak prime, how many points a game do you suspect he'll average per game? What efficiency do you think he'll have?

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 06:45 PM
You aren't Kobe Bryant though. When has Kobe ever NOT gotten his... especially prime Kobe? Kobe is a more than capable facilitator, but does that suddenly mean he is going to be more productive when he has to guard Pippen on defense? Or when Kawhi alternates on him? I think his role as facilitator would be just as difficult as him scoring seeing as Kawhi/Pippen are still on him, and he is worn out on defense being bullied by Pippen.

Also, you never answered: Do you plan on playing Kobe on Pippen 1v1?

LOL @ "you never answered", well no ****, you haven't asked me yet prior to this.. :laugh:

Yes, am I supposed to double Pippen? Lmao..

BTW, Kobe in the facilitator role is perfect for this team. It also forces Pippen/Kawhi to sag off to prevent him from facilitating, that does open up the floor even more for Kobe. This is when Kobe can be in attack mode, The offense still runs primarily through Shaq though..

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 06:58 PM
Another question: Since Kobe is going to play facilitator and he's going to change his entire mentality from who he was in his peak prime, how many points a game do you suspect he'll average per game? What efficiency do you think he'll have?

Ppg? Any where from 18-22. Efficiency, that all depends on how many shots he takes imo. Hell be more efficient the less shots he takes. Hell be averaging around 8 apg though. Hell also be able to play much better defense since he wont have to use his legs much as a facilitator, he'd use his legs more if he shot, which isn't his primary role here.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 07:04 PM
Question for you RR: How many points do you realistically see your team scoring? Seeing as how they're going to be exerting all their energy on defense.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 07:44 PM
LOL @ "you never answered", well no ****, you haven't asked me yet prior to this.. :laugh:

Yes, am I supposed to double Pippen? Lmao..

BTW, Kobe in the facilitator role is perfect for this team. It also forces Pippen/Kawhi to sag off to prevent him from facilitating, that does open up the floor even more for Kobe. This is when Kobe can be in attack mode, The offense still runs primarily through Shaq though..

I would think you'd at least consider the thought of having someone come in and help Kobe from time to time when Pippen is bullying Kobe in the post. If not, that's good news for Manson Family. Shaq isn't there to protect the rim... I don't see how Kobe would be able to defend against Pippen (which I've already shown Kobe's RAPM defensive numbers, -1.2) the entire game as well as playing facilitator, as well as scoring about 20 points a game... Even pre-prime Kobe scores more than 20 points a game, and you're asking PRIME Kobe to be something he's never done before?

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 07:55 PM
Question for you RR: How many points do you realistically see your team scoring? Seeing as how they're going to be exerting all their energy on defense.

More points thank La Habra. :P

In all seriousness, it would depend on La Habra's tweaking and adjusting.

I've already pointed out the Pippen/Kobe mismatch. Kobe isn't going to limit Pippen in the post. Kobe is physically better suited for Kawhi than Pippen. He gives up too much height and power to Pippen. If no one comes in to help when Pippen exploits the mismatch, Pippen would easily score over 20-23 a game on good efficiency.

If La Habra sticks Peja on Kawhi, Kawhi will be going off. As the number 1 option for the Spurs, Kawhi was able to get 20+ points a game on elite efficiency. Teams plan defenses on Kawhi... Peja will get absolutely abused with Kawhi's speed/quickness and movement. In pnr with Ewing, Kawhi will be at the rim if Peja stays on him... if Peja/Shaq switch, Kawhi will pass it to Ewing who will make Peja pay. Kawhi would easily score 20-25 points a game, on great efficiency.

Shaq improved defensively from his first 2 seasons in the league, so I don't think Ewing will be going off for 29 a game like he did. As I said earlier, if La Habra doesn't adjust their defense on Pippen/Kawhi, why wouldn't Manson Family continue to exploit that even at the expense of Ewing's PPG taking a dip? Ewing will still get his against Shaq, granted Shaq will more than likely win the head-to-head match up.

And of course there is Deron Williams... both players have overlapping 3 year primes and Deron always had better numbers... If Sheed/Ewing open up the floor to draw out Shaq/Brand, I would want D Will to penetrate and crossover Billups aggressively. If La Habra doesn't help Billups contain Williams, Williams will be score 15-18 points on elite efficiency as he did in their head-to-head match ups. We don't expect Williams to drop 25 on Billups like he did in the real life postseason, but we do expect him to get the better of Billups.

Sheed won't be a high scoring player UNLESS Brand leaves him wide open. Sheed is there for spacing and great defense.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:00 PM
I would think you'd at least consider the thought of having someone come in and help Kobe from time to time when Pippen is bullying Kobe in the post. If not, that's good news for Manson Family. Shaq isn't there to protect the rim... I don't see how Kobe would be able to defend against Pippen (which I've already shown Kobe's RAPM defensive numbers, -1.2) the entire game as well as playing facilitator, as well as scoring about 20 points a game... Even pre-prime Kobe scores more than 20 points a game, and you're asking PRIME Kobe to be something he's never done before?

Yet you're here saying Kawhi will completely shut down Peja and Score even more points than his usual 17 (3 year prime), when it's inflated by this past year where he scored 21.

I'm not asking for kobe to become a facilitator for a season, just this series. He's shown he can do that for an entire series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2001/#pgl_basic_playoffs::none

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:07 PM
So now you're saying Pippen will not only shut kobe down but also outperform him on offense as well? IF that's the case then ****, Pippen=Lebron. Just like you try to sell Deron>Magic.

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:08 PM
Yet you're here saying Kawhi will completely shut down Peja and Score even more points than his usual 17 (3 year prime), when it's inflated by this past year where he scored 21.

I'm not asking for kobe to become a facilitator for a season, just this series. He's shown he can do that for an entire series.

I absolutely think Kawhi will severely limit Peja on the perimeter and score a a hell of a lot more than 17.7 points per game (his 3 year playoff prime) on even better ts% (about .600). Remember, teams plan defenses for Kawhi, the number 1 option, but he was still able to score with elite efficiency.

Even having Andre Roberson (a great defender) on Kawhi, Kawhi was able to score 20 points a game on really good efficiency. Now, is Peja even 1/2 as good as Andre Roberson is defensively? No way... he's a traffic cone guarding Kawhi... Why wouldn't he blow up for 20-25 points on elite efficiency against Peja?

What season are you referencing that prime Kobe was primary facilitator and scored about 20 points a game?

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:12 PM
So now you're saying Pippen will not only shut kobe down but also outperform him on offense as well? IF that's the case then ****, Pippen=Lebron. Just like you try to sell Deron>Magic.

You keep using the term "shut down", not me. :laugh2:

I have said over and over, Kobe will get his points against Kawhi and Pippen, he's just going to have more shot attempts than points. Pippen isn't even guarding Kobe the entire time. Kawhi and Pippen will be taking shifts, so yes... this would limit Kobe even more so than if it were just Pippen guarding Kobe. You can't possiblydisagree with this.

Not to mention, you completely omit the part about Kobe using just as much energy on defense trying to stop Pippen in the post.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:12 PM
I absolutely think Kawhi will severely limit Peja on the perimeter and score a a hell of a lot more than 17.7 points per game (his 3 year playoff prime) on even better ts% (about .600). Remember, teams plan defenses for Kawhi, the number 1 option, but he was still able to score with elite efficiency.

Even having Andre Roberson (an great defender) on Kawhi, Kawhi was able to score 20 points a game on really good efficiency. Now, is Peja even 1/2 as good as Andre Roberson is defensively? No way... he's a traffic cone guarding Kawhi... Why wouldn't he blow up for 20-25 points on elite efficiency against Peja?

Andre ****in Roberson are you ****in kidding me? Kawhi doesn't even have to be tired from defending him lmfao, he can leave him wide open. He wouldn't be able to do the same **** having to defend Peja running through screens having to chase him around non-stop. He can't leave him open for a second... Meanwhile, with Andre Roberson he doesn't even have to worry about guarding him.. Of course he's going to have more energy to use on offense.

You're asking Kawhi to do that when he's only got 1 season to prove it? He's never done it multiple seasons. If you want to bring up a playoff sample size, then I'll just use the Kobe playoff sample size as well :)

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:16 PM
"More points thank La Habra. :P"

:laugh2: Touche'.

When you asked how many points kobe would score and how efficient I was gonna post. "enough points and on good enough efficiency to beat you". So you beat me to it. Made me crack up :cheers:

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:18 PM
You keep using the term "shut down", not me. :laugh2:

I have said over and over, Kobe will get his points against Kawhi and Pippen, he's just going to have more shot attempts than points. Pippen isn't even guarding Kobe the entire time. Kawhi and Pippen will be taking shifts, so yes... this would limit Kobe even more so than if it were just Pippen guarding Kobe. You can't possiblydisagree with this.

Not to mention, you completely omit the part about Kobe using just as much energy on defense trying to stop Pippen in the post.

You're indicating he's shutting him down completely, which is why I bring it up.

And Kobe won't be able to make Pippen/Kawhi waste energy when they try to guard him in the post? Lets not forget that besides MJ, Kobe has arguably the best post game for an SG..

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:20 PM
Andre ****in Roberson are you ****in kidding me? Kawhi doesn't even have to be tired from defending him lmfao, he can leave him wide open.

:facepalm: You have got to be kidding me right now... Kawhi's defensive assignment wasn't Andre Roberson... He guarded Westbrook and Durant. My point in bringing up Roberson wasn't to show how Kawhi "shut down Roberson" offensively, it was to show that Roberson is a great defender, infinitely better than Peja was on the defensive end, but still couldn't limit Kawhi. :facepalm:


He wouldn't be able to do the same **** having to defend Peja running through screens having to chase him around non-stop. He can't leave him open for a second... Meanwhile, with Andre Roberson he doesn't even have to worry about guarding him.. Of course he's going to have more energy to use on offense.

:laugh2: You clearly didn't watch OKC versus the Spurs. You have no idea who guarded Roberson and why Roberson was key offensively, which isn't even his game, in the series. Hint: It wasn't Kawhi!


You're asking Kawhi to do that when he's only got 1 season to prove it? He's never done it multiple seasons. If you want to bring up a playoff sample size, then I'll just use the Kobe playoff sample size as well :)

Fair point, it was only 1 postseason where Kawhi averaged 22+ points, but even at his average (17.7 points per game on .600 ts%), that will sky rocket against Peja "traffic cone" Stojakovic. Peja doesn't have the speed/quickness or defensive instincts to limit Kawhi, and you know it. :)

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:24 PM
You're indicating he's shutting him down completely, which is why I bring it up.

And Kobe won't be able to make Pippen/Kawhi waste energy when they try to guard him in the post? Lets not forget that besides MJ, Kobe has arguably the best post game for an SG..

It will definitely be an energy consuming task containing Kobe, no doubt. This is why Manson Family takes shifts with Kawhi and Pippen. When one needs a little break, the other takes over. Kobe doesn't have the luxury of switching players with Peja... or I guess he does... do you want to put Peja on Pippen? :laugh:

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:26 PM
"More points thank La Habra. :P"

:laugh2: Touche'.

When you asked how many points kobe would score and how efficient I was gonna post. "enough points and on good enough efficiency to beat you". So you beat me to it. Made me crack up :cheers:

Yeah I thought you were going to say the same. I was like, damnit, I shouldn't have asked it that way. :P

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 08:31 PM
:facepalm: You have got to be kidding me right now... Kawhi's defensive assignment wasn't Andre Roberson... He guarded Westbrook and Durant. My point in bringing up Roberson wasn't to show how Kawhi "shut down Roberson" offensively, it was to show that Roberson is a great defender, infinitely better than Peja was on the defensive end, but still couldn't limit Kawhi. :facepalm:



:laugh2: You clearly didn't watch OKC versus the Spurs. You have no idea who guarded Roberson and why Roberson was key offensively, which isn't even his game, in the series. Hint: It wasn't Kawhi!



Fair point, it was only 1 postseason where Kawhi averaged 22+ points, but even at his average (17.7 points per game on .600 ts%), that will sky rocket against Peja "traffic cone" Stojakovic. Peja doesn't have the speed/quickness or defensive instincts to limit Kawhi, and you know it. :)

Fair points, but Durant/Westbrook are ISO players, they literally played into Kawhi's specialty. Will Peja be doing that? No, Kawhi will have to be running through screens and can't leave peja open for a second. With KD/Westbrook he didn't have to do that. They played into Kawhi's strength and went at it 1v1 lmao, and they still beat the spurs, because they had arguably the 2 best players in the series, same as our matchup :P.
But that's a mute point.

I mean, Is putting Peja on Pippen as bad an Idea as Rasheed on Shaq like you stated before? :laugh2: I mean, this isn't exactly Dwight Howard here for Sheed..

Redrum187
06-09-2016, 08:36 PM
Fair points, but Durant/Westbrook are ISO players, they literally played into Kawhi's specialty. Will Peja be doing that? No, Kawhi will have to be running through screens and can't leave peja open for a second. With KD/Westbrook he didn't have to do that. They played into Kawhi's strength and went at it 1v1 lmao, yest they still beat the spurs, but that's a mute point.

I mean, Is putting Peja on Pippen as bad an Idea as Rasheed on Shaq like you stated before? :laugh2: I mean, this isn't exactly Dwight Howard here for Sheed..

Actually, Kawhi's specialty is all of defense. You don't think Kawhi has the speed/quickness to chase Peja? Peja isn't even fast/quick... Not only can Kawhi chase quick players (which Peja isn't), he excells at it just as he does with iso defense. He is a complete defender.

And yes... Peja on Pippen would be suicide. Sheed did guard Shaq in spot up minutes. But in reality, Ewing and Shaq played 40 minutes a night, there probably wouldn't be any time for Sheed to guard Shaq with Tyson on the bench.

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2016, 09:15 PM
Actually, Kawhi's specialty is all of defense. You don't think Kawhi has the speed/quickness to chase Peja? Peja isn't even fast/quick... Not only can Kawhi chase quick players (which Peja isn't), he excells at it just as he does with iso defense. He is a complete defender.

And yes... Peja on Pippen would be suicide. Sheed did guard Shaq in spot up minutes. But in reality, Ewing and Shaq played 40 minutes a night, there probably wouldn't be any time for Sheed to guard Shaq with Tyson on the bench.

I know, I'm not discrediting Kawhi, but you're discrediting Peja. You can't leave him open because all of my players are capable of making a pass to a wide open Peja. Is Pippen not gonna get help with Kobe? I mean as good a defender as Pippen was you can't just expect to limit another all time great scorer all by himself. You can't tell me Kawhi wouldn't instinctively try to help out when Kobe got in the post. Any hesitation to commit to Kobe and Billups/Peja will burn em.

xxplayerxx23
06-10-2016, 04:19 PM
I'll never understand how people just look past the problems Kobe and Shaq had once Kobe his his prime. Now it's fine like that's no problem? Even if Shaq dominates, he has no answer for Leonard and Pippen is to strong for Kobe I'm sorry but I guess people see Kobe and Shaq and don't look at anything else. I'll never pick ewing again. So ****ing stupid the way he viewed

xxplayerxx23
06-10-2016, 04:36 PM
Pippen is bigger stronger, no way he doesn't give Kobe fits. I expect more 8-22 games than 10-20 games in the series. You can tell me Kobe is going to slow Pippen down ? I mean look at the strength difference. Peja has zero chance at guarding any of our starting 5. The real huge advantage you have is Shaq vs Ewing but again even if Shaq goes for 35 a game (with Kobe shooting 20+ I doubt it but whatever lets just say) you really think you are holding Patrick under 25? Billiups had a tough time containing Deron who was a 20-10 guy in his own right. I mean come on, Leonard is going to abuse peja, Pippen is going to make it tough on Kobe both ends of the floor. Sheed will make brand very uncomfortable outside, difference between brand shooting the outside shot vs sheed is sheed had the defensive ability to guard players out there. It just doesn't make sense to me how it's 12-8 voting wise. I'm not discrediting Lg he did a great job , put a great team together I think we matchup really well. Ewing was an animal, he took on more talented teams in the 90s and led teams to the finals, made it tough on mj and Scottie with limited teammate help on the offensive side of the ball. Here he has plenty of help on both ends. Keep voting people

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2016, 05:11 PM
I'll never understand how people just look past the problems Kobe and Shaq had once Kobe his his prime. Now it's fine like that's no problem? Even if Shaq dominates, he has no answer for Leonard and Pippen is to strong for Kobe I'm sorry but I guess people see Kobe and Shaq and don't look at anything else. I'll never pick ewing again. So ****ing stupid the way he viewed

How can you ignore the sucess they had as well though. They completely dominated the league for 3 years straight with the rest of their supporting cast being past their prime. It works both ways, you cant ignore how they dominated either.

Also. The teams they had to go through were no joke either. The reality is, that's just how good they were. This is that team on Steroids with another Finals MVP in Billups, a phenomenal shooter in Peja, and an underrated PF star in Brand, ala Chris Bosh/Pau Gasol...look out how they turned out once they went to a contender..

xxplayerxx23
06-10-2016, 05:31 PM
How can you ignore the sucess they had as well though. They completely dominated the league for 3 years straight with the rest of their supporting cast being past their prime. It works both ways, you cant ignore how they dominated either.

Also. The teams they had to go through were no joke either. The reality is, that's just how good they were. This is that team on Steroids with another Finals MVP in Billups, a phenomenal shooter in Peja, and an underrated PF star in Brand, ala Chris Bosh/Pau Gasol...look out how they turned out once they went to a contender..


Listen man Kobe and Shaq are great, but I mean come on there's s reason they broke up, Kobe got to big to share the court with a guy on his level/better than his level. Listen you got a hell of a team hats of to the job you did putting a team together with such voter value and a Good fit together. I just think Kobe doesn't take a back seat to anyone which is a not a slight just my opinion. i Just think we matchup great against you. I've gone on and on about how good Ewing was and I've given Shaq the proper respect just don't think it's enough to win the series. Young Kobe just coming into his own yeah that Kobe could take being 1B or 2. Kobe that was scoring left and right would not. He wouldn't allow Shaq to just get the ball in the post and watch him go to work all game long. Not to mention how much more work he's going to have to do guarding Pippen and getting hounded by two amazing defenders. I've mentioned dwill size against billups prob another mistake by me taking deron with how down his value is in real life people forget how he was a 20-10 guy as good as Chris Paul level in his prime, how he gave Paul fits and anybody smaller fits. Shame people forget how good he was. And I love peja but I think he's going to have a really tough time getting free on Leonard. No way he guards leonard there's no changing my mind on that. But like I said hats off to you man, is this your first Alltime game? I haven't really played much the last two I played a little last year but been more behind the scenes because I don't wanna deal with some of the people in there.

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2016, 05:39 PM
its my 2nd one basically

xxplayerxx23
06-10-2016, 05:53 PM
its my 2nd one basically


Impressive run for your 2nd Alltime

xxplayerxx23
06-10-2016, 05:53 PM
Wish we got more votes

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2016, 06:39 PM
Impressive run for your 2nd Alltime

Appreciate it :cheers:

Redrum187
06-10-2016, 07:53 PM
We should incorporate a new rule next season: we are allowed to veto 3 people's votes BEFORE they actually vote. So potentially, you could veto a person who would have voted for you. :laugh2: (only halfway joking)

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2016, 07:59 PM
:laugh2:

I can say i feel the same way about a certain person too.. Haha

Sadds The Gr8
06-10-2016, 11:16 PM
LG getting his first ring

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2016, 11:38 PM
LG getting his first ring

I hope so. This matchup aint over yet though.


Both teams in the ABA conference are legit too.

xxplayerxx23
06-11-2016, 12:52 AM
4 Votes comenon people

xxplayerxx23
06-11-2016, 01:08 AM
We should incorporate a new rule next season: we are allowed to veto 3 people's votes BEFORE they actually vote. So potentially, you could veto a person who would have voted for you. :laugh2: (only halfway joking)



Oh I 100% knew 4 votes right off the bat haha

Redrum187
06-11-2016, 12:53 PM
Congratulations LG! You have a great team! :clap:

Redrum187
06-11-2016, 12:55 PM
Oh I 100% knew 4 votes right off the bat haha

We didn't do so badly having the last pick [again]. :laugh2: Hopefully Valade runs next years.

Lakers + Giants
06-11-2016, 01:08 PM
Congratulations LG! You have a great team! :clap:

Appreciate it man. Was honestly scared of matching up with you guys.

xxplayerxx23
06-11-2016, 01:37 PM
Congrats bro. Good luck in the finals

xxplayerxx23
06-11-2016, 01:38 PM
We didn't do so badly having the last pick [again]. :laugh2: Hopefully Valade runs next years.



Haha we did pretty good for sure. Yeah hoping next year something changes lol