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View Full Version : Whose career is a bigger disappointment: Kevin Durant or Chris Paul?



KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 07:51 AM
Kevin Durant: 27 years old
NBA Most Valuable Player (2014)
7 NBA All-Star (20102016)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2012)
5 All-NBA First Team (20102014)
All-NBA Second Team (2016)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2008)
NBA Rookie Challenge MVP (2009)
4 NBA scoring champion (20102012, 2014)
504090 club (2013)

Chris Paul: 31 years old
9 NBA All-Star (20082016)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2013)
4 All-NBA First Team (2008, 20122014)
3 All-NBA Second Team (2009, 20152016)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
6 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009, 20122016)
2 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2006)
4 NBA assists leader (20082009, 20142015)


Kevin Durant after eliminating the Spurs: "This wasn't our championship."
After losing to the Warriors: "We're all upset. We wanted to get a chance to play for a championship in the Finals, so that hurts."

Chris Paul on winning being discussed as an MVP candidate: "It would be nice, but I'll take a championship," Paul said. "I'll take that over anything and everything."

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 07:54 AM
I vote Durant.

GoferKing_
06-08-2016, 08:06 AM
Neither has been dissapointing to me, they have done what they could. It is not Durants fault he plays with Westbrook and it is not Pauls fault Jordan and Griffin can not develope into winning players.

rhymeratic
06-08-2016, 08:23 AM
Chris Paul. This guy was heralded as the greatest PG of our generation and honestly when he was drafted after Atlanta was KILLED for taking Marvin Williams no. 2 over him... neither player has had post season success.

In fact technically I'd say Marvin Williams has been a MAJOR disappointment over Chris Paul but that's not the option on here. So yeah at least Durant has been to a NBA Finals. He just ran up against an unprecedented super team at that time. Had Miami not been allowed to teamup, OKC would have likely won a championship.

JWO35
06-08-2016, 08:26 AM
The guy that never even sniffed the NBA Finals before....with that being said both are HOFers and will be considered (one of) the best in their generation

TheDish87
06-08-2016, 08:36 AM
Durant is 4 years younger and has been much further in the playoffs than Paul. Neither is a disappointment though, it takes a team to win a ring.

warfelg
06-08-2016, 08:50 AM
Durantula is my vote.

Multiple points:
~CP3's failings hasn't been because of him or the way he attacks the game. He plays with the attitude that he's the best on his team, and he is.
~CP3 has never been on that great of teams. He's been on really good teams but those NOHornets teams were never that good, and the Clips have always been the 3/4 best in the west. Hard to hang that on CP3
~Durant on the other hand plays too passive to Westy when he (Durant) should be just taking the ball.
~KD looks to give up the the shot far too easy. Not the passing, rather he takes jumpers after 1/2 dribbles when he is long enough, athletic enough, and a great enough handle to just get to the rim at ease.
~OKC has had much better constructed teams and have been the top 1/2 team in the west for a while now without breaking through.

As much as I love KD, and want to see him stay in OKC, I think having a different PG (defense/shooter) and a big with a post game would do more for his career in terms of winning championships.

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 09:04 AM
They've both played in the Western Conference their entire careers and since each entered the league, the West has been consistently stronger than the East from top to bottom.

In 2008, Paul led the Hornets to a Game 7 against the Spurs in the West semis but no farther. The Hornets could never get their injury situation straight the rest of the time Paul was there. Either Chandler, West, Stojakovic, Paul himself, or some other important member(s) of his supporting cast were injured at one time. It's been about the same with the Clippers: three runs to the semifinals and a bunch of injuries to various important players in between. It's worth mentioning though that the blame of his teams' lack of postseason success can only be directed at Paul so much. He's been incredible in the playoffs statistically.

Meanwhile Durant has led his team to the conference finals four out of the last five postseasons he's played in. He didn't play in the playoffs last year and he was without Westbrook against Memphis in 2013. He also led the Thunder past the favored Spurs into the Finals in 2012. Offhand, I don't recall a Paul-led team beating anyone in the playoffs they weren't supposed to. Durant's Thunder have done it multiple times. On the same note, Durant has not been as statistically impressive in the postseason as Paul.

The last few years, the two have played with fairly comparable surrounding talent. DeAndre Jordan's ascension in LA was sort of coincided with Harden's departure from OKC. In that time, Durant's teams have advanced farther than Paul's and performed better in the postseason even if Paul himself has outplayed Durant statistically.

I don't know that he's been disappointing necessarily but he's had more time to accomplish less postseason success than Durant despite being surrounded with similar talent the last few years. So Chris Paul.

PowerHouse
06-08-2016, 09:12 AM
Remember those guys drafted ahead of them? Oden and Marvin Williams?

I think they are the true disappointments.

YAALREADYKNO
06-08-2016, 09:21 AM
CP3. Every year he doesn't make it to the conf finals it's everyone else's fault except his according to A lot of people.

PhillyFaninLA
06-08-2016, 09:23 AM
CP3 has been injured so I guess some disappointment there but KD has been as advertised...rings come from teams, he is on teams that lost to better teams.

Miltstar
06-08-2016, 09:24 AM
I say both guys have had better careers than the ring chaser Lebron

koreancabbage
06-08-2016, 09:32 AM
I say both guys have had better careers than the ring chaser Lebron

Lol Isn't everyone a ring chaser?

Or people who settle down and don't really care about winning is better?





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Tony_Starks
06-08-2016, 09:37 AM
Well KD is going to end up with at least 1 ring.

Whereas CP3 will probably end up teaming with Bron, if he gets his wish, and will still probably not get a ring.

wildbear
06-08-2016, 09:41 AM
Neither, but if I had to choose one I guess it'd be Paul since he's never made it to a Conference Finals, even now having sidekicks in Blake Griffin and DeAndre. At the same time the Clippers have sucked outside of those three and JJ Redick.

JOSKOMANG4
06-08-2016, 10:12 AM
IMO, neither, but if i had to choose, it would be Durant. OKC was up 3-1 against the Warriors and couldn't hold on. OKC clearly has depth and a great supporting cast, including one of the best PG's in the NBA; Westbrook.

As for CP3, injuries to himself and teammates have killed any chances of them moving forward.

I do believe Durant should stay in OKC or he should go to a team in the east that has a PG that's comparable to westbrook(John Wall & Washington).

As for CP3, i do believe he'll be on the Cavaliers next season. A possible Kyrie for CP3 swap.

YAALREADYKNO
06-08-2016, 10:15 AM
Neither, but if I had to choose one I guess it'd be Paul since he's never made it to a Conference Finals, even now having sidekicks in Blake Griffin and DeAndre. At the same time the Clippers have sucked outside of those three and JJ Redick.

Jamaal Crawford?

NYKalltheway
06-08-2016, 10:18 AM
Neither are disappointments... I'm disappointed that there has to be such a thread, because it shows that the quality rating system that people have is way off.

wildbear
06-08-2016, 10:18 AM
Jamaal Crawford?


Forgot about Crawford, but even then, he and Redick are just so one-dimensional.

TrueFan420
06-08-2016, 10:26 AM
Forgot about Crawford, but even then, he and Redick are just so one-dimensional.

Redick is underrated. He's a solid team defender and actually has solid vision as a passer and great BBall IQ. He will always be limited but he's better than he gets credit for. Yea Crawford is as one dimensional as it gets.

Chronz
06-08-2016, 11:13 AM
I laugh whenever I hear about the OKC series, not only was he great but he was going up against 2 players many deem superior to he. Guys hes outplayed in similar circumstances.

CP3 has overachieved to a greater degree than Durant.

Both Durant and RWB have played without each other, CP3 and Blake have played without each other, through the combinations, I've usually been more impressed with CP3 upping his game.

Like when Durant played without RWB in the playoffs, dude sucked vs Memphis whereas CP3 with a significantly hobbled Blake was leading the team efficiently. Clips didn't lose for their lack of offense, they lost cuz its not CP3's job to anchor the paint against Z-Bo and Gasol.

CP3 carried us this year with Blake out, we go from elite to last offensively, RWB played most of last year without Durant and couldn't even make the playoffs.

Durant has been the better player, has had the better career, but I would say hes been the bigger disappointment even tho neither have been.



Wonder how things would've gone had he been drafted by Atlanta the way they should've.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:27 AM
Neither has been dissapointing to me, they have done what they could. It is not Durants fault he plays with Westbrook and it is not Pauls fault Jordan and Griffin can not develope into winning players.

Isn't he lucky for getting to play with Westbrook?

How is it not the leader of the team's fault that his other talented teammates aren't winning players?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:28 AM
Chris Paul. This guy was heralded as the greatest PG of our generation and honestly when he was drafted after Atlanta was KILLED for taking Marvin Williams no. 2 over him... neither player has had post season success.

In fact technically I'd say Marvin Williams has been a MAJOR disappointment over Chris Paul but that's not the option on here. So yeah at least Durant has been to a NBA Finals. He just ran up against an unprecedented super team at that time. Had Miami not been allowed to teamup, OKC would have likely won a championship.

Exactly. Rhymeratic gets it. It's all about perspective. Chris Paul is arguably the greatest point guard of the last 20 years and hasn't made a finals. That's not right.

valade16
06-08-2016, 11:30 AM
I think with CP3 we can use disappointing in different ways. It's both disappointing that he has never made a Finals or had more team success, but it's also disappointing that he has been in the circumstances he's been in.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:30 AM
They've both played in the Western Conference their entire careers and since each entered the league, the West has been consistently stronger than the East from top to bottom.

In 2008, Paul led the Hornets to a Game 7 against the Spurs in the West semis but no farther. The Hornets could never get their injury situation straight the rest of the time Paul was there. Either Chandler, West, Stojakovic, Paul himself, or some other important member(s) of his supporting cast were injured at one time. It's been about the same with the Clippers: three runs to the semifinals and a bunch of injuries to various important players in between. It's worth mentioning though that the blame of his teams' lack of postseason success can only be directed at Paul so much. He's been incredible in the playoffs statistically.

Meanwhile Durant has led his team to the conference finals four out of the last five postseasons he's played in. He didn't play in the playoffs last year and he was without Westbrook against Memphis in 2013. He also led the Thunder past the favored Spurs into the Finals in 2012. Offhand, I don't recall a Paul-led team beating anyone in the playoffs they weren't supposed to. Durant's Thunder have done it multiple times. On the same note, Durant has not been as statistically impressive in the postseason as Paul.

The last few years, the two have played with fairly comparable surrounding talent. DeAndre Jordan's ascension in LA was sort of coincided with Harden's departure from OKC. In that time, Durant's teams have advanced farther than Paul's and performed better in the postseason even if Paul himself has outplayed Durant statistically.

I don't know that he's been disappointing necessarily but he's had more time to accomplish less postseason success than Durant despite being surrounded with similar talent the last few years. So Chris Paul.

And in that game 7 he shot 8 for 18 and only outscored Parker by 1 pt. That's a perfect example of a situation where if Chris Paul had put the team on his back and had a 40 point game his career might be completely different.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:31 AM
Remember those guys drafted ahead of them? Oden and Marvin Williams?

I think they are the true disappointments.

No doubt but when you look at what CP3 and KD's career could be and what they are ...


Well KD is going to end up with at least 1 ring.

Whereas CP3 will probably end up teaming with Bron, if he gets his wish, and will still probably not get a ring.

You sure? How is he ever going to get passed Golden State? Their younger and their core of players is locked up.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:33 AM
Neither are disappointments... I'm disappointed that there has to be such a thread, because it shows that the quality rating system that people have is way off.

How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the NBA Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?

I pose that question to anyone.

ink
06-08-2016, 11:33 AM
Definitely neither. They're both spectacular players. Not everyone wins a championship. Doesn't diminish a thing.

ink
06-08-2016, 11:34 AM
Neither are disappointments... I'm disappointed that there has to be such a thread, because it shows that the quality rating system that people have is way off.

I agree.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 11:38 AM
Neither. As an individual, you only control so much in a team sport. It's shocking to me that most of you still can't grasp that. Making an NBA finals is so hard. Winning one is the hardest thing for a team to do. Why we judge individuals on team accomplishments, I will never understand.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:39 AM
Remember those guys drafted ahead of them? Oden and Marvin Williams?

I think they are the true disappointments.


I laugh whenever I hear about the OKC series, not only was he great but he was going up against 2 players many deem superior to he. Guys hes outplayed in similar circumstances.

CP3 has overachieved to a greater degree than Durant.

Both Durant and RWB have played without each other, CP3 and Blake have played without each other, through the combinations, I've usually been more impressed with CP3 upping his game.

Like when Durant played without RWB in the playoffs, dude sucked vs Memphis whereas CP3 with a significantly hobbled Blake was leading the team efficiently. Clips didn't lose for their lack of offense, they lost cuz its not CP3's job to anchor the paint against Z-Bo and Gasol.

CP3 carried us this year with Blake out, we go from elite to last offensively, RWB played most of last year without Durant and couldn't even make the playoffs.

Durant has been the better player, has had the better career, but I would say hes been the bigger disappointment even tho neither have been.



Wonder how things would've gone had he been drafted by Atlanta the way they should've.

Come on. You were there for the Rockets collapse. Game 6 that huge lead. What did CP3 do for you guys over the last 6 minutes in the 4th quarter?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:40 AM
I think with CP3 we can use disappointing in different ways. It's both disappointing that he has never made a Finals or had more team success, but it's also disappointing that he has been in the circumstances he's been in.


Definitely neither. They're both spectacular players. Not everyone wins a championship. Doesn't diminish a thing.


Neither. As an individual, you only control so much in a team sport. It's shocking to me that most of you still can't grasp that. Making an NBA finals is so hard. Winning one is the hardest thing for a team to do. Why we judge individuals on team accomplishments, I will never understand.

How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?

cmellofan15
06-08-2016, 11:44 AM
LMAO kd and cp3 are now disappointing? what a ridiculous premise for a thread

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:47 AM
LMAO kd and cp3 are now disappointing? what a ridiculous premise for a thread

Weakest post in the thread but I will challenge it anyway.

How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?

valade16
06-08-2016, 11:47 AM
How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?


0 to both right? Bron, Bird, Dr. J, Hondo, Pippen, and Barry have all won Titles.

But for PGs, generally they were on teams with a player better than them when they won no?

Stockton went to the Finals with MVP Karl Malone
Big O didn't win a ring until Kareem
Kidd won with Dirk
Frazier had Willis Reed (although Frazier can be considered better, it's close. Reed was the league MVP one year)

Even Magic had Kareem (though obviously he took over and won as the Man and without him, but that's why he's the GOAT PG) and Isiah a completely stacked team. You don't see too many teams winning a Championship with the PG as their best player, regardless of who that PG is.

I wonder where Big O would be ranked had he never won that ring? About where CP3 is now? Given that, if CP3 manages to win a ring as a clear second fiddle to another player, does he vault up the all-time list?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:56 AM
0 to both right? Bron, Bird, Dr. J, Hondo, Pippen, and Barry have all won Titles.

Exactly. The knee jerk reaction is "well they are both so good it can't be a disappointment!" And I get that. But when you are the most talented player ever at your position to not when a championship I think it's fair to say that it was disappointing. I feel very confident saying Paul and Durant are disappointed. Hence the quotes at the beginning. I'm sure they both believed they would have won a title at this point in their careers.


But for PGs, generally they were on teams with a player better than them when they won no?

Stockton went to the Finals with MVP Karl Malone
Big O didn't win a ring until Kareem
Kidd won with Dirk
Frazier had Willis Reed (although Frazier can be considered better, it's close. Reed was the league MVP one year)

Even Magic had Kareem (though obviously he took over and won as the Man and without him, but that's why he's the GOAT PG) and Isiah a completely stacked team. You don't see too many teams winning a Championship with the PG as their best player, regardless of who that PG is.

Great examples.


I wonder where Big O would be ranked had he never won that ring? About where CP3 is now? Given that, if CP3 manages to win a ring as a clear second fiddle to another player, does he vault up the all-time list?

Considering much of Pippen's all-time value is being the best second fiddle of all-time I think it's fair to say yes. As long as he's still a top contributor to the team it would help. Unless it's a straight up Gary Payton ring. :laugh:

42-15-7
06-08-2016, 12:01 PM
Tie!

Scoots
06-08-2016, 12:02 PM
Both have had great careers.

koreancabbage
06-08-2016, 12:03 PM
Neither are disappointments... I'm disappointed that there has to be such a thread, because it shows that the quality rating system that people have is way off.

People are stupid lol

I agree but to even start comparing them to the greats, they need rings. I think that's where they are considered "failures" but failure is such a wrong word to use. The people who think their careers are failures are people who are failures in their own lives. That mentality is no good for anyone.

Otherwise, they've been amazing career wise, for the game of basketball.


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valade16
06-08-2016, 12:10 PM
Exactly. The knee jerk reaction is "well they are both so good it can't be a disappointment!" And I get that. But when you are the most talented player ever at your position to not when a championship I think it's fair to say that it was disappointing. I feel very confident saying Paul and Durant are disappointed. Hence the quotes at the beginning. I'm sure they both believed they would have won a title at this point in their careers.

Great examples.

Considering much of Pippen's all-time value is being the best second fiddle of all-time I think it's fair to say yes. As long as he's still a top contributor to the team it would help. Unless it's a straight up Gary Payton ring. :laugh:

Reminds me of this clip on Inside the NBA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOxgV1Tcw3w

Kenny Smith "I got the only stat that matters. 2 rings to 0 rings"

Gary Payton "Hold on. You got me all messed up right now"

Kenny Smith "My bad, my bad. You stole one on the way out"

:laugh2:

Chronz
06-08-2016, 12:12 PM
Come on. You were there for the Rockets collapse. Game 6 that huge lead. What did CP3 do for you guys over the last 6 minutes in the 4th quarter?

You mean when he had come back from injury after gutting through a G7 game winning performance? The series we were relying on like 6 bodies and had been completely spent from CP3's absence.

What happened was the Rockets benched James Harden and Josh Smith was making the 3's we were openly conceding and the TEAM gave up a truck ton of points. CP3 played great ALL SERIES despite being hobbled. Sadly we lacked the depth to win beyond one Finals caliber series, like Pop said, neither side came out feeling the victor as it essentially sapped both squads when most were warming up against FAR inferior opponents. That series was so unfair the NBA actually changed the rules to ensure it never happens again.



Either way, Im not seeing your point here. You are asking us to compare the 2, how can you refute any point I've made when you're not bringing up Durant.


If this were Tennis, I would love agree with you on ranking players.

Chronz
06-08-2016, 12:17 PM
People are stupid lol

I agree but to even start comparing them to the greats, they need rings. I think that's where they are considered "failures" but failure is such a wrong word to use. The people who think their careers are failures are people who are failures in their own lives. That mentality is no good for anyone.

Otherwise, they've been amazing career wise, for the game of basketball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're talking to someone who ranks Eglin Baylor ahead of LeBron so its not about rings for him.

tredigs
06-08-2016, 01:04 PM
Both are All-Time greats at their position who have easily exceeded the expectations anyone had of them. Two of the best players, and most determined players, I have ever seen lace them up. CP3 has never had a realistic chance to win a title, and KD has never had an easy road. Put OKC in the East and we're having a different conversation, though.

Redrum187
06-08-2016, 01:18 PM
I vote Durant.

I agree with you.

However, there is still time for Durant to dig himself out. He is quite a player and does well in the postseason.

hugepatsfan
06-08-2016, 01:26 PM
Talk to me this time next year when KD and the Celtics are on the verge of closing out the Warriors :D

Aust
06-08-2016, 01:54 PM
Paul

ink
06-08-2016, 02:06 PM
Both are All-Time greats at their position who have easily exceeded the expectations anyone had of them. Two of the best players, and most determined players, I have ever seen lace them up. CP3 has never had a realistic chance to win a title, and KD has never had an easy road. Put OKC in the East and we're having a different conversation, though.

Exactly.

And we wouldn't have to waste a finals calibre team from the West every year. We already had the NBA finals -- between GSW and OKC.

Note how both "losers" in this thread are from the powerhouse West.

S & B Bleeder
06-08-2016, 02:09 PM
Paul

Yes, but his name would've never been in this conversation had his trade to the lakers not been veto'd.


Pairing him with a still prime kobe and a lakers team that had just won back to back titles would've meant a meeting with the Heat and thier big 3. :cool:


What a great Finals that would have been to watch.



Kobe and Paul vs. Wade, LBJ, and Bosh.


Paul and Kobe even talked about winning chips together: http://clipperholics.com/2016/04/05/chris-paul-kobe-bryant-were-ready-to-win-titles-with-lakers/


As is stands, Paul goes to the NBA's black hole known as the Clippers and literally watches his brilliant career get pissed away by numerous idiotic moves from Doc Rivers and injuries to key players.

bucketss
06-08-2016, 02:12 PM
durant was getting pre mature goat discussions back in 2012.

numba1CHANGsta
06-08-2016, 02:19 PM
KD-1 MVP, 4 Conference Finals, 1 Finals

CP3-0 MVP, 0 Conference Finals, 0 Finals

Isn't it obvious who's been the most disappointing?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 02:19 PM
People are stupid lol

I agree but to even start comparing them to the greats, they need rings. I think that's where they are considered "failures" but failure is such a wrong word to use. The people who think their careers are failures are people who are failures in their own lives. That mentality is no good for anyone.

Otherwise, they've been amazing career wise, for the game of basketball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who said failure?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 02:20 PM
Reminds me of this clip on Inside the NBA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOxgV1Tcw3w

Kenny Smith "I got the only stat that matters. 2 rings to 0 rings"

Gary Payton "Hold on. You got me all messed up right now"

Kenny Smith "My bad, my bad. You stole one on the way out"

:laugh2:

:laugh:

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 02:29 PM
You mean when he had come back from injury after gutting through a G7 game winning performance? The series we were relying on like 6 bodies and had been completely spent from CP3's absence.

What happened was the Rockets benched James Harden and Josh Smith was making the 3's we were openly conceding and the TEAM gave up a truck ton of points. CP3 played great ALL SERIES despite being hobbled. Sadly we lacked the depth to win beyond one Finals caliber series, like Pop said, neither side came out feeling the victor as it essentially sapped both squads when most were warming up against FAR inferior opponents. That series was so unfair the NBA actually changed the rules to ensure it never happens again.



Either way, Im not seeing your point here. You are asking us to compare the 2, how can you refute any point I've made when you're not bringing up Durant.


If this were Tennis, I would love agree with you on ranking players.

Frazier lost Reed and got it done. Magic lost Kareem and got it done. LeBron went up 2-1 on the Warriors with Delly/Mozgov. That's what the truly great players do. The overcome the odds and do superhuman things. That's what Shaq did against Mutombo. That's what Wade did against the Mavs. Durant and Paul have the talent to be mentioned with these players but instead it's all "so and so was injured," "the bench let him down," "blah blah blah." I'm all for adding context. And in each individual case for both of these players we can cry a river about how they played a better team and give them excuses but after 7-8 seasons of excuses I'm over it. At some point the truly great players turn it on. Seriously Horace Grant was a 12-10 big man who made 1 all-star team. Pippen was a great 2nd option. And MJ 3 peated with them. Then subbed out Grant for Rodman and it's another 3peat. If they only had won 2-3 titles people would be saying "it's a shame MJ only had Pippen." But instead the narrative is "MJ is the damn GOAT because he won 6 with them." The flu game. The STEAL on Malone followed by the game winning shot that won his 6th title. And a plenty of others. When is Durant going to have that moment? Is it even in him? It's clearly not in CP3.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 02:30 PM
Exactly.

And we wouldn't have to waste a finals calibre team from the West every year. We already had the NBA finals -- between GSW and OKC.

Note how both "losers" in this thread are from the powerhouse West.

Even if we put them in the East how does that get them a ring? Technically Durant loses to the Heat and doesn't even make his only Finals.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 02:33 PM
KD-1 MVP, 4 Conference Finals, 1 Finals

CP3-0 MVP, 0 Conference Finals, 0 Finals

Isn't it obvious who's been the most disappointing?

But you are framing the argument differently than me. If Durant is clearly the better player than CP3 and has accomplished more, shouldn't his superior abilities and accomplishments have led him to a ring? In that respect, to see a player with an MVP, 4 WCF, and 1 finals not have a championship looks far more disappointing to me.

NYKalltheway
06-08-2016, 02:38 PM
How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the NBA Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?

I pose that question to anyone.

Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Lafayette Lever, some more I guess... had they reached the Finals, you'd be rating them as "top" and/or better than CP3. Heck, you'd rate Bibby and Strickland if they started for a team that reached the Finals because they "helped a team reach the Finals". Their quality was there, their team's quality just wasn't enough. (or some other reasons)

SFs that never won that are better than Durant? Well... Baylor, Nique, King, maybe Melo and/or Dantley-English are on the same level.

I find it rather funny. You inflate CP3 and Durant because they're the main guys today, yet you diss people and overrate others, ignoring your very own criteria. Truth is, both CP3 and Durant are excellent players. Truth also is that they can't really play a team sport by their own.
At least get your criteria consistent.

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 02:50 PM
And in that game 7 he shot 8 for 18 and only outscored Parker by 1 pt. That's a perfect example of a situation where if Chris Paul had put the team on his back and had a 40 point game his career might be completely different.

I can't tell if I'm agreeing with you or not. You voted for Durant in the poll but your posts in the thread are suggestive you actually think CP3 has had the more disappointing career.

At any rate, Paul was 22 at the time and in his first postseason. Against the defending champion Spurs of all teams. For him to go off for 40 under those circumstances would have been nothing short of legendary. Never mind any effort to cement himself as the best point guard in the league or propelling his career on a track that would eliminate any possibility for this thread ever existing.

Criticize him all you want for his teams' later shortcomings with the Clippers, but I can't get on board with you on that one.


But you are framing the argument differently than me. If Durant is clearly the better player than CP3 and has accomplished more, shouldn't his superior abilities and accomplishments have led him to a ring? In that respect, to see a player with an MVP, 4 WCF, and 1 finals not have a championship looks far more disappointing to me.

Disappointment is based on expectations. So if Durant is perceived as the superior player, then by and large the expectations of him will be higher than Paul's. He has achieved more than Paul. Are his achievements which excel Paul's proportionate to the difference between Durant and Paul in the NBA pecking order? I would actually argue Durant's accomplishments are greater than the difference between Durant and Paul as players; by that I mean Paul should have accomplished more by now based on what Durant has done to this point.

I'm still not sure I would agree that "disappointing" is the appropriate word to use for either here. It certainly is not for Durant.

CHANGO
06-08-2016, 02:57 PM
For me neither are a disappointment. Not everyone can win a championship.

BUT... If I have to take one of them, Durant has been on an elite team almost his entire Career. CP3 didn't have that luxury, he spent 6 years on the Hornets with not that great of a team and battling injuries.

valade16
06-08-2016, 03:01 PM
Disappointment is based on expectations. So if Durant is perceived as the superior player, then by and large the expectations of him will be higher than Paul's. He has achieved more than Paul. Are his achievements which excel Paul's proportionate to the difference between Durant and Paul in the NBA pecking order? I would actually argue Durant's accomplishments are greater than the difference between Durant and Paul as players; by that I mean Paul should have accomplished more by now based on what Durant has done to this point.

I'm still not sure I would agree that "disappointing" is the appropriate word to use for either here. It certainly is not for Durant.

This is an interesting point. If you look at their careers statistically CP3 is as good if not better than KD in both career and peak season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=paulch01&p2=duranke01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2014&p1=duranke01&y2=2009&p2=paulch01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Yes KD won MVP, but a lot of people will say CP3 should have beaten Kobe for that MVP. So in this case, I have to wonder if KD's success is what is making everyone believe he's better than CP3.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 03:05 PM
Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Lafayette Lever, some more I guess...

Mark Price is not nearly as good a scorer or defender.
Tim Hardaway is not nearly as good a shooter or defender.
Fat Lever is not nearly as good a scorer, shooter, or passer.

Realistically with the exception of Mark Price's shooting CP3 is better than all of those guys at basically everything.


had they reached the Finals, you'd be rating them as "top" and/or better than CP3.

:laugh: No I wouldn't. Where do you see me doing that?


Heck, you'd rate Bibby and Strickland if they started for a team that reached the Finals because they "helped a team reach the Finals". Their quality was there, their team's quality just wasn't enough. (or some other reasons)

Making false assumptions about someone's opinion and arguing them is a poor debate tactic.


SFs that never won that are better than Durant? Well... Baylor, Nique, King, maybe Melo and/or Dantley-English are on the same level.

Nah only Baylor. Just naming scoring forwards doesn't put them on the same level as the historically efficient Durant.


I find it rather funny. You inflate CP3 and Durant because they're the main guys today, yet you diss people and overrate others, ignoring your very own criteria. Truth is, both CP3 and Durant are excellent players. Truth also is that they can't really play a team sport by their own. At least get your criteria consistent.

If you think it's inconsistent to believe someone is an all-time great player but still had a disappointing career then we just fundamentally disagree. By the time he was 23 Durant had won 3 scoring titles and made it to the NBA Finals with a team full of young talent. If 5 years ago we would have made a thread asking how many rings Durant would have by his 28th birthday I have a feeling "0 rings" wouldn't have been the most popular choice. Yet here we are. That's why to me I see his career as a disappointment.

naps
06-08-2016, 03:10 PM
CP3 and it's not even close. How many times he made it to the conference finals again? I dont hold anything against him when he was in NO and for years I hoped he would get it done when he finally had good teams in LA but he didnt. Enough with the free passes. Durant has had a much successful career already and he is 4 years younger.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 03:14 PM
I can't tell if I'm agreeing with you or not. You voted for Durant in the poll but your posts in the thread are suggestive you actually think CP3 has had the more disappointing career.

In a comparison between the two, I would say I'm more disappointed that Durant hasn't won a championship. I believe he has the higher ceiling of the two. I was arguing the more general point that has been made by a lot of posters that neither has been a disappointment. If I was a diehard Clippers fan then after they acquired CP3 to go with Blake and DJ I would have banked on a title or at least a Finals berth by now. The fact that CP3 never went supernova...I keep using this phrase for lack of a better one, I'm pretty sure people know what I'm going for here...means he has been a disappointment too. I was reinforcing my point in general that both players can be seen to have disappointing careers based on expectations from their early career success.


At any rate, Paul was 22 at the time and in his first postseason. Against the defending champion Spurs of all teams. For him to go off for 40 under those circumstances would have been nothing short of legendary. Never mind any effort to cement himself as the best point guard in the league or propelling his career on a track that would eliminate any possibility for this thread ever existing.

Magic did it.


Criticize him all you want for his teams' later shortcomings with the Clippers, but I can't get on board with you on that one.

That's fair. In that specific instance maybe my expectations are too high for Paul. I'm essentially setting the bar as a top 10 player of all-time. But conversely I've seen people put CP3 on their all-time teams over Magic because of his shooting and defense. If he's good enough to replace Magic on an all-time team then how high should the bar actually be?



Disappointment is based on expectations. So if Durant is perceived as the superior player, then by and large the expectations of him will be higher than Paul's. He has achieved more than Paul. Are his achievements which excel Paul's proportionate to the difference between Durant and Paul in the NBA pecking order? I would actually argue Durant's accomplishments are greater than the difference between Durant and Paul as players; by that I mean Paul should have accomplished more by now based on what Durant has done to this point.

That's the first argument that someone as made that has made me rethink my choice between Paul and Durant. I do actually agree that they are close enough in talent and that Durant has accomplished more. But my only counter would be that Durant was also placed in an better situation to maximize his talent. It would be easier for him to reach his full potential in OKC and he still hasn't.


I'm still not sure I would agree that "disappointing" is the appropriate word to use for either here. It certainly is not for Durant.

I think it's appropriate. If we are being literal "failing to fulfill someone's hopes or expectations." Is it not fair to say after Durant's first 4 seasons people would have expected a title by now? Or after CP3 teamed up with Blake/DJ that people would have expected a finals berth by now?

FYL_McVeezy
06-08-2016, 03:24 PM
Neither. We're talking about 2 future HOFers....

TEAMS compete for championships...

ink
06-08-2016, 03:27 PM
Even if we put them in the East how does that get them a ring? Technically Durant loses to the Heat and doesn't even make his only Finals.

1. it doesn't diminish the player if he doesn't get a ring
2. you need to play the games before you know who does or doesn't make the Finals
3. the level of competition in the West excludes many HOFers from championship experience

Chronz
06-08-2016, 03:30 PM
Frazier lost Reed and got it done. Magic lost Kareem and got it done. LeBron went up 2-1 on the Warriors with Delly/Mozgov. That's what the truly great players do. The overcome the odds and do superhuman things. That's what Shaq did against Mutombo. That's what Wade did against the Mavs. Durant and Paul have the talent to be mentioned with these players but instead it's all "so and so was injured," "the bench let him down," "blah blah blah." I'm all for adding context. And in each individual case for both of these players we can cry a river about how they played a better team and give them excuses but after 7-8 seasons of excuses I'm over it. At some point the truly great players turn it on. Seriously Horace Grant was a 12-10 big man who made 1 all-star team. Pippen was a great 2nd option. And MJ 3 peated with them. Then subbed out Grant for Rodman and it's another 3peat. If they only had won 2-3 titles people would be saying "it's a shame MJ only had Pippen." But instead the narrative is "MJ is the damn GOAT because he won 6 with them." The flu game. The STEAL on Malone followed by the game winning shot that won his 6th title. And a plenty of others. When is Durant going to have that moment? Is it even in him? It's clearly not in CP3.
They lost them for 1 game and in Magic's case hes the superior player so thats a different standard. Not sold the circumstances were that drastic compared to CP3's. I mean, Clyde was facing a Lakers team that had just barely gotten Wilt back. Clyde has the moments, CP3 was the better player. Sucks but **** happens, Magic and his defending champs lost to a sub.500 team and another inferior team, so it can happen to anyone. Simply put, CP3 has overachieved despite your complaints.

Wake me up when CP3 has what every normal sized PG has had to win, elite defensive support.

Horace Grant was the Bosh of his Bulls squad so hes underappreciated and Im sure adding a DPOY caliber defender is such a casual swap out for someone who is already the games best player.

valade16
06-08-2016, 03:30 PM
I mean we can say rings don't or shouldn't matter when evaluating players. But does anyone have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10 best players ever list?

I mean, if Karl Malone had snagged those rings off MJ he is likely Top 10 ever. I just don't see how anyone can say rings don't matter at all unless they have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10.

numba1CHANGsta
06-08-2016, 03:46 PM
But you are framing the argument differently than me. If Durant is clearly the better player than CP3 and has accomplished more, shouldn't his superior abilities and accomplishments have led him to a ring? In that respect, to see a player with an MVP, 4 WCF, and 1 finals not have a championship looks far more disappointing to me.

KD is 27 years old, CP3 is 31 years old and Durant has accomplished far more than CP3 has. If KD were to retire today then yes he would be most disappointing because of what he accomplished but didn't meet or exceed expectations which is to win it all. CP3 will either get traded this summer (which I doubt the Clippers would do it unless it were for a young all-star PG like Irving) or leave in the summer of 2017 and form his own super team and play along side 1-2 other superstars because he's been the only legit superstar on his team his entire career (BG isn't a superstar).

europagnpilgrim
06-08-2016, 03:51 PM
The more I see topics like this the more I appreciate players like Drexler and The Big Dipper and The Answer and others

europagnpilgrim
06-08-2016, 04:06 PM
I mean we can say rings don't or shouldn't matter when evaluating players. But does anyone have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10 best players ever list?

I mean, if Karl Malone had snagged those rings off MJ he is likely Top 10 ever. I just don't see how anyone can say rings don't matter at all unless they have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10.

non media mainstream people have players in top 10 who hasn't won, its just the media has brainwashed most to think a certain way, but some have Barkley and Malone and The Answer top 10 or even Dr J who has only 1 ring, even former players and coaches have said so about those players also

one minute rings mean so much then the next for a certain player not so much, just look at your K Malone statement, why is he not in top 10 for longevity alone? why would a ring or two push him into top 10 if he wasn't there already after watching him for like 20yrs?

that's the tricky thing about a ring, its based on Owner/GM commitment to build around that player the correct way to max the strengths and cover the minor weakness

Chronz
06-08-2016, 04:34 PM
Its obvious KD has been the better player but what exactly has he done his past few playoffs? He played DPOY caliber defense in the GS series but overall, he was individually weak for the 2nd straight post season.

Its crazy, CP3 has "choked" in same playoffs where hes hit impossible game winners over the outstretched arms of legendary defenders (Tony Allen and Tim Duncan say hello), hes blamed for losing control of what could've been a 3-2 lead vs OKC for his play in the closing moments of an otherwise brilliant game and given relatively little credit for his shooting display in G1 that stole HCA in the first place. Its like the guy shows up but because hes not perfect throughout the entirety of the game and because his teams tend to SUCK BALLS DEFENSIVELY, he gets part of the blame for their fate on that end even though hes recognized as an all-league defender.

People say CP3 gets excuses made for him but I've never gotten that impression, sounds like people go out of their way to discredit him. So hes not Magic, oh well, he lacks the size to have that kind of versatility. Based on what I would expect out of my PG, there are very few that I would have in place of CP3, including several champions.

GoferKing_
06-08-2016, 04:40 PM
Isn't he lucky for getting to play with Westbrook?

How is it not the leader of the team's fault that his other talented teammates aren't winning players?

Well it is not Pauls fault Blake and Jordan can't develope post moves or reliable midrange game, he does what he can, and he actually makes them better.

And Durant needs a PG with a brain that would make other teammates better.

Durant should play with Paul on one team. xD

Chronz
06-08-2016, 04:45 PM
I mean we can say rings don't or shouldn't matter when evaluating players. But does anyone have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10 best players ever list?

I mean, if Karl Malone had snagged those rings off MJ he is likely Top 10 ever. I just don't see how anyone can say rings don't matter at all unless they have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10.

Thats the beauty, plenty will have to see the inconsistency when they rank all the players in history and they will find themselves discounting rings themselves.


I mean look at everyones positional rankings, I doubt its neatly laid out with championship winners, especially across generations.

Raise your hand if you have Elvin Hayes above Charles Barkley or Karl Malone?

Vinny642
06-08-2016, 05:29 PM
Durant is still young tho. He has more than enough time to get a Ring.

jerellh528
06-08-2016, 05:41 PM
Have no clue how anyone could vote Durant. The answer is neither or cp3

bklynny67
06-08-2016, 05:52 PM
Neither. Stupid thread... Because they haven't won a championship they've been disappointments? That's insane. They have both had fantastic careers.

On that note, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing... Also had disappointing careers. Who else am I missing?

bklynny67
06-08-2016, 05:55 PM
I think with CP3 we can use disappointing in different ways. It's both disappointing that he has never made a Finals or had more team success, but it's also disappointing that he has been in the circumstances he's been in.


Definitely neither. They're both spectacular players. Not everyone wins a championship. Doesn't diminish a thing.


Neither. As an individual, you only control so much in a team sport. It's shocking to me that most of you still can't grasp that. Making an NBA finals is so hard. Winning one is the hardest thing for a team to do. Why we judge individuals on team accomplishments, I will never understand.

How many point guards in NBA History are better than Chris Paul and have never made it to the Finals?

How many small forwards in NBA History are better than Kevin Durant and have never won an NBA Championship?
How many point guards and power forwards are better than Stockton and Malone and have never won an NBA championship?

ink
06-08-2016, 07:11 PM
I mean we can say rings don't or shouldn't matter when evaluating players. But does anyone have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10 best players ever list?

I mean, if Karl Malone had snagged those rings off MJ he is likely Top 10 ever. I just don't see how anyone can say rings don't matter at all unless they have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10.

What actual value do top 10 lists have? The game itself matters a lot more than peripheral stuff with sketchy and uneven criteria.

ALL of the players talked about in this thread are all time greats, not disappointments. We should all be so lucky as to be "disappointments" like them.

Crackadalic
06-08-2016, 07:30 PM
Cp3 hasnt even been to a conference finals. I'm a huge cp3 fan but he hasn't taking that team over the hump.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-08-2016, 08:06 PM
Whoever is on PSK/Jam's team.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 08:46 PM
1. it doesn't diminish the player if he doesn't get a ring
2. you need to play the games before you know who does or doesn't make the Finals
3. the level of competition in the West excludes many HOFers from championship experience

1. of course it does. Rings elevate legacies and lack of rings diminishes them
2. so I'm not allowed to assume they would get eliminated by the Heat but you can assume they would make the finals? double standard?
3. that excuse is fine but grows old when a player gets 7-8 chances to get through the west and still can't

BKLYNpigeon
06-08-2016, 08:49 PM
Disappointment?

You guys think think its easy to win NBA Championships? It takes more then just your Will and Talent. You need a Front Office, Coaching staff and a competent Supporting cast. Some Players are just unlucky.

Your career is not a Disappointment if you're going to the HOF.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 08:58 PM
They lost them for 1 game.

But that's the whole point. CP3 and Durant have been in situations where 1 game would have changed their whole careers and they didn't dominate those games. You are making my point for me.


and in Magic's case hes the superior player so thats a different standard. Not sold the circumstances were that drastic compared to CP3's. I mean, Clyde was facing a Lakers team that had just barely gotten Wilt back. Clyde has the moments, CP3 was the better player.

I agree. Doesn't that make Chris Paul's career disappointing? Inferior players have immortal games and he doesn't. James Worthy's Game 7 is another great example.


Sucks but **** happens, Magic and his defending champs lost to a sub.500 team and another inferior team, so it can happen to anyone. Simply put, CP3 has overachieved despite your complaints.

Only if the bar is set below his obvious skill level.


Wake me up when CP3 has what every normal sized PG has had to win, elite defensive support.

Losing me here. You simultaneously use the subtle "pound for pound" argument while blaming Paul's teammates. Clippers were 6th in DRtg this year. How much better do they have to be before we can blame Paul?

jerellh528
06-08-2016, 08:59 PM
What actual value do top 10 lists have? The game itself matters a lot more than peripheral stuff with sketchy and uneven criteria.

ALL of the players talked about in this thread are all time greats, not disappointments. We should all be so lucky as to be "disappointments" like them.

Agreed with everything except the bolded.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 09:03 PM
I mean we can say rings don't or shouldn't matter when evaluating players. But does anyone have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10 best players ever list?

I mean, if Karl Malone had snagged those rings off MJ he is likely Top 10 ever. I just don't see how anyone can say rings don't matter at all unless they have someone who hasn't won a ring in their top 10.

Exactly. This is an incredibly simple example that is completely true. If you combine Karl Malone's absurdly impressive longevity of elite play, his league MVP's, and then give him 2 rings over MJ in the finals. Is there anyone that would actually dare say he wouldn't be moved up on their all-time list? And I love this argument in bold. I'd love to hear an all-time top 10 list without a champion on it that doesn't sound ridiculous. Great post.

Kyben36
06-08-2016, 09:03 PM
How are either a disapointment LOL, this is a joke right, how can a 5x allstar be a disapointment. LOL.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 09:06 PM
Thats the beauty, plenty will have to see the inconsistency when they rank all the players in history and they will find themselves discounting rings themselves.


I mean look at everyones positional rankings, I doubt its neatly laid out with championship winners, especially across generations.

Raise your hand if you have Elvin Hayes above Charles Barkley or Karl Malone?

Whose saying it should be like that? I thought you hated strawman arguments.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 09:16 PM
Neither. Stupid thread... Because they haven't won a championship they've been disappointments? That's insane. They have both had fantastic careers.

On that note, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing... Also had disappointing careers. Who else am I missing?

You don't think they want to win a championship? You don't think they are talented enough to win Finals MVPs? Durant won a league MVP. Many argue CP3 should have a league MVP. You need to look at it from the perspective of how great there career could be... How slightly inferior players like Frazier and Worthy have had legendary performances and won Finals MVP while they have not. Of course they are hall of fame players. Of course anyone would be lucky to have a career like them. Make as much money. Accomplish so many individual accolades. etc. I'm not disputing that. And yes as a diehard Knicks fan Patrick Ewing's career was fun as hell winning all those regular season games and playoff eastern conference playoff series, but a disappointment in the end.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-08-2016, 09:40 PM
I would say Durant, because 5 years ago we thought he'd have multiple championships by now, but in two of those seasons either him or Westbrook got injured. That and the last four times him and Westbrook have finished the season healthy they've made it to the WCF, which is pretty good considering how good the conference has been the last few years.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 09:46 PM
How are either a disapointment LOL, this is a joke right, how can a 5x allstar be a disapointment. LOL.

How many point guards are better than Paul and have never made the Finals?

How many small forwards are better than Durant and have never won a championship?

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 09:57 PM
I would say Durant, because 5 years ago we thought he'd have multiple championships by now, but in two of those seasons either him or Westbrook got injured. That and the last four times him and Westbrook have finished the season healthy they've made it to the WCF, which is pretty good considering how good the conference has been the last few years.

This guy gets it. Did you consider CP3?

YAALREADYKNO
06-08-2016, 10:04 PM
Chris Paul has had enough help to at least get to the conf finals. There was no excuse for blowing that 3-1 lead to Houston especially when it was josh smith and not James harden who led the comeback in game 6 in LA

bklynny67
06-08-2016, 10:04 PM
Neither. Stupid thread... Because they haven't won a championship they've been disappointments? That's insane. They have both had fantastic careers.

On that note, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing... Also had disappointing careers. Who else am I missing?

You don't think they want to win a championship? You don't think they are talented enough to win Finals MVPs? Durant won a league MVP. Many argue CP3 should have a league MVP. You need to look at it from the perspective of how great there career could be... How slightly inferior players like Frazier and Worthy have had legendary performances and won Finals MVP while they have not. Of course they are hall of fame players. Of course anyone would be lucky to have a career like them. Make as much money. Accomplish so many individual accolades. etc. I'm not disputing that. And yes as a diehard Knicks fan Patrick Ewing's career was fun as hell winning all those regular season games and playoff eastern conference playoff series, but a disappointment in the end.
Not sure what the hell you're saying. So... Stockton and Malone were disappointments because they didn't win a championship? Lesser players are actually better because they have a ring? Most of what you're saying is absolutely absurd.

JasonJohnHorn
06-08-2016, 10:09 PM
These guys have both had spectacular careers thus far and have proven themselves among the very best at their position in the history of the game.

Nothing disappointing about that. KD has only been in a position to win once, and neither of them missed out on winning due to their own performances. Usually they just faced better teams or were struggling with injury.

ink
06-08-2016, 10:28 PM
1. of course it does. Rings elevate legacies and lack of rings diminishes them
2. so I'm not allowed to assume they would get eliminated by the Heat but you can assume they would make the finals? double standard?
3. that excuse is fine but grows old when a player gets 7-8 chances to get through the west and still can't

1. you can't prove the myth by repeating the myth. Obviously, based on responses on this thread, that's not a unanimous belief. It's a team game.
2. I could be wrong but I don't remember assuming anyone would make the finals.
3. It's not an excuse. Look at the teams that didn't make it to the finals during the Bulls dynasty. Look at all the teams that didn't make it to the finals because their opposition was a team that stacked their teams. Look at the Suns, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, and Thunder during the last decade or so. There are so many roadblocks to making the final it makes your head spin. Each of those teams worthy finalists. Note that I am using the word "team".

ink
06-08-2016, 10:30 PM
Agreed with everything except the bolded.

Out of curiosity, why?

Catfish1314
06-08-2016, 11:05 PM
In a comparison between the two, I would say I'm more disappointed that Durant hasn't won a championship. I believe he has the higher ceiling of the two. I was arguing the more general point that has been made by a lot of posters that neither has been a disappointment. If I was a diehard Clippers fan then after they acquired CP3 to go with Blake and DJ I would have banked on a title or at least a Finals berth by now. The fact that CP3 never went supernova...I keep using this phrase for lack of a better one, I'm pretty sure people know what I'm going for here...means he has been a disappointment too. I was reinforcing my point in general that both players can be seen to have disappointing careers based on expectations from their early career success.

Maybe early season success has done more harm than good to the perception of Durant and Paul's careers. When Durant led the Thunder to the Finals in 2012 and played exceptionally well in that series against the Heat, I admit I assumed he would lead OKC to a title within the next few years. More on that at the bottom.


Magic did it.

Eh but do we really want to compare Paul to Magic? From a raw talent perspective, Magic was a transcendental specimen. I hesitate very much to put Paul in that category. Magic was also drafted into a better situation than Paul. Far better in fact. And what he did in the series you're referring to is certainly remembered as a legendary performance. One of the finest the sport has ever seen.


That's fair. In that specific instance maybe my expectations are too high for Paul. I'm essentially setting the bar as a top 10 player of all-time. But conversely I've seen people put CP3 on their all-time teams over Magic because of his shooting and defense. If he's good enough to replace Magic on an all-time team then how high should the bar actually be?

Those are silly people.


I think it's appropriate. If we are being literal "failing to fulfill someone's hopes or expectations." Is it not fair to say after Durant's first 4 seasons people would have expected a title by now? Or after CP3 teamed up with Blake/DJ that people would have expected a finals berth by now?

Perhaps phrased that way, I could see it. After the Thunder lost the 2012 Finals to the Heat, I was sure they would win a championship within the next three or four years if not sooner. But expectations are subject to change. The environment changed. James Harden wasn't a member of the Thunder shortly after that. Steph Curry became the best player in the league and the Warriors quickly and quietly built a monster. Injuries to Westbrook and Durant in 2013 and 2015 respectively more or less killed the Thunder's postseasons those years. Now to an earlier point of yours, would an all-time elite transcendental talent have overcome Westbrook's absence in 2013 or even played a higher level in defeat? An argument could be made for that but are we ready to name Durant that kind of player?

This has provoked enough thought for me to say it this way: After Durant's deep postseason run in 2011 - despite his inefficient tendencies during - followed by a far better playoff performance en route to the Finals the next year, I expected then, that he would have lead the Thunder to a title by now. But given the injuries faced by Oklahoma City and the altered landscape around the league, I can't bring myself to label his career to this point "disappointing."

Mostly the same can be said for Paul although I never expected him to lead the Hornets to a title with that roster. Since he's been with the Clippers and joined Blake Griffin and a much improved DeAndre Jordan, it's certainly reasonable to expect him to have lead them beyond the conference semi-finals at this point. They've had three cracks at it and come up short each time. It's fair to say that based on expectations, that's disappointing. Has his career been disappointing? Again I'll stop short of saying that but forced to choose between he and Durant, I would say CP3 has fallen short of expectations to a larger extent.

KnicksorBust
06-08-2016, 11:49 PM
Not sure what the hell you're saying. So... Stockton and Malone were disappointments because they didn't win a championship? Lesser players are actually better because they have a ring? Most of what you're saying is absolutely absurd.

I really don't see what is so hard to comprehend here. I'll repeat it again because it's my thread so I try and keep it amicable. Stockton and Malone accomplished a lot in their careers. Malone won MVP. Stockton lead the league in assists a million times. They made it the NBA Finals twice. For them to have been so good and so close to winning a championship and yet come away with nothing. How is that not disappointing? It's all about expectations. Obviously they are hall of fame players and have had immensely successful careers. I'm not trying to take that away from that. But I don't believe either player mentioned in this thread has reached their full potential and in that respect I see it as a disappointment. It's entirely possible I had higher expectations than many people for Paul and more specifically for Durant but that would surprise me seeing how highly people have praised those two players over the past few years on this site.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 12:03 AM
1. you can't prove the myth by repeating the myth. Obviously, based on responses on this thread, that's not a unanimous belief. It's a team game.
2. I could be wrong but I don't remember assuming anyone would make the finals.
3. It's not an excuse. Look at the teams that didn't make it to the finals during the Bulls dynasty. Look at all the teams that didn't make it to the finals because their opposition was a team that stacked their teams. Look at the Suns, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, and Thunder during the last decade or so. There are so many roadblocks to making the final it makes your head spin. Each of those teams worthy finalists. Note that I am using the word "team".

1a. You were specifically challenged to name your opinion of the 10 greatest players of all-time. Valade brings up a great point. Is it some massive coincidence that the greatest players of all-time all have won the NBA championship?
1b. The poll isn't asking if a lack of rings diminish them. It's asking whose a bigger disappointment and people are getting hung up on the word disappointment. If I had phrased the thread "Who has had a better chance to win a championship: Chris Paul or Kevin Durant?" No one would be complaining.
2. Do you believe OKC would have made the Finals more frequently in the East? If so what seasons? If not then why even create the scenario in the first place?
3. Of course it's an excuse. Look up the word.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 12:11 AM
Maybe early season success has done more harm than good to the perception of Durant and Paul's careers. When Durant led the Thunder to the Finals in 2012 and played exceptionally well in that series against the Heat, I admit I assumed he would lead OKC to a title within the next few years. More on that at the bottom.



Eh but do we really want to compare Paul to Magic? From a raw talent perspective, Magic was a transcendental specimen. I hesitate very much to put Paul in that category. Magic was also drafted into a better situation than Paul. Far better in fact. And what he did in the series you're referring to is certainly remembered as a legendary performance. One of the finest the sport has ever seen.



Those are silly people.



Perhaps phrased that way, I could see it. After the Thunder lost the 2012 Finals to the Heat, I was sure they would win a championship within the next three or four years if not sooner. But expectations are subject to change. The environment changed. James Harden wasn't a member of the Thunder shortly after that. Steph Curry became the best player in the league and the Warriors quickly and quietly built a monster. Injuries to Westbrook and Durant in 2013 and 2015 respectively more or less killed the Thunder's postseasons those years. Now to an earlier point of yours, would an all-time elite transcendental talent have overcome Westbrook's absence in 2013 or even played a higher level in defeat? An argument could be made for that but are we ready to name Durant that kind of player?

This has provoked enough thought for me to say it this way: After Durant's deep postseason run in 2011 - despite his inefficient tendencies during - followed by a far better playoff performance en route to the Finals the next year, I expected then, that he would have lead the Thunder to a title by now. But given the injuries faced by Oklahoma City and the altered landscape around the league, I can't bring myself to label his career to this point "disappointing."

Mostly the same can be said for Paul although I never expected him to lead the Hornets to a title with that roster. Since he's been with the Clippers and joined Blake Griffin and a much improved DeAndre Jordan, it's certainly reasonable to expect him to have lead them beyond the conference semi-finals at this point. They've had three cracks at it and come up short each time. It's fair to say that based on expectations, that's disappointing. Has his career been disappointing? Again I'll stop short of saying that but forced to choose between he and Durant, I would say CP3 has fallen short of expectations to a larger extent.

Gun to your head, does CP3 win a title before he retires?

Chronz
06-09-2016, 01:24 AM
But that's the whole point. CP3 and Durant have been in situations where 1 game would have changed their whole careers and they didn't dominate those games. You are making my point for me.?
Im really not. You're focusing on one game, Im focusing on SERIES. Wake me up when Magic wins a title without KAJ for much more than a single game from a series in which he was the most valuable player.




I agree. Doesn't that make Chris Paul's career disappointing? Inferior players have immortal games and he doesn't. James Worthy's Game 7 is another great example.

Not to me, I know how random the game is. Rondo has more memorable playoff games, he wasn't 1/10th the player CP3 was.



Only if the bar is set below his obvious skill level.

Again, if this were tennis, I would agree with you.



Losing me here. You simultaneously use the subtle "pound for pound" argument while blaming Paul's teammates. Clippers were 6th in DRtg this year. How much better do they have to be before we can blame Paul


I've told you exactly how much better and you chose to bring up a season in which CP3 breaks his hand where his team still fell short.

NYKalltheway
06-09-2016, 02:05 AM
Mark Price is not nearly as good a scorer or defender.
Tim Hardaway is not nearly as good a shooter or defender.
Fat Lever is not nearly as good a scorer, shooter, or passer.

Realistically with the exception of Mark Price's shooting CP3 is better than all of those guys at basically everything.

A ring and other accolade changes your perception of a player. Era also does. For example, Tiny Archibald was probably an immense player, but you don't see him on anyone's top 5 or 10 PG list. And he happens to carry a ring as well. And he was a scoring champion as well as an assit champion.


:laugh: No I wouldn't. Where do you see me doing that?

Steve Nash, twice MVP. I'd take Mark Price over him any day of the week. Yet, Nash is a x2 MVP (both probably unfair, one of those belonged to Shaq)

You see people rating Nash as a top 10 or even top 5 PG yet no mention of guys like Mark Price who had a similar style and was actually better defensively.
Iirc Steve Nash never made the Finals either.

ink
06-09-2016, 02:23 AM
1a. You were specifically challenged to name your opinion of the 10 greatest players of all-time. Valade brings up a great point. Is it some massive coincidence that the greatest players of all-time all have won the NBA championship?
1b. The poll isn't asking if a lack of rings diminish them. It's asking whose a bigger disappointment and people are getting hung up on the word disappointment. If I had phrased the thread "Who has had a better chance to win a championship: Chris Paul or Kevin Durant?" No one would be complaining.
2. Do you believe OKC would have made the Finals more frequently in the East? If so what seasons? If not then why even create the scenario in the first place?
3. Of course it's an excuse. Look up the word.

I'll be brief:

1a. I wasn't. There are about 100 greatest players of all time or more and not all of them won championships.
1b. Yes, that would have been a better poll question, more interesting. Then it isn't a diss thread.
2. I didn't. They'd have simply been in a better position and the league would have benefitted too. btw, it was someone else that suggested they be in the East.
3. there's a difference between valid reasons and excuses.

Dade County
06-09-2016, 03:57 AM
Well it would have to be Cp3, but he hasn't really been on a team that could win it all. Clippers are over rated by the media.

But also some of the blame has to be put on Cp3, he did re-sign there after being traded. I think he should have explored his options a little more; I don't see Blake as a real winner, but yes very talented.

When it comes to KD, I blame one man (maybe I should blame the owners of OKC), Sam Presti for trading Harden.

Catfish1314
06-09-2016, 07:55 AM
Gun to your head, does CP3 win a title before he retires?

Not in the role he's in now with the team he has now. The West is too strong. If Durant leaves OKC to to East and the Thunder become Westbrook's team, I could see a healthy Clippers climbing high as #2 in the West. But the Spurs will still be strong and even healthy, the Clippers are not better than the Warriors.

"Before he retires" is pretty open. Kidd won a ring before he retired but not nearly in the same role he held with the Nets.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 08:10 AM
Im really not. You're focusing on one game, Im focusing on SERIES.

But so often that is what sports becomes. One game. Season on the line. That's what makes them so memorable.


Wake me up when Magic wins a title without KAJ for much more than a single game from a series in which he was the most valuable player.

This is the 2nd time you've asked me to wake you up. I'm concerned. Do you have a sleeping disorder?


Not to me, I know how random the game is. Rondo has more memorable playoff games, he wasn't 1/10th the player CP3 was.

I agree. Isn't that a shame?


Again, if this were tennis, I would agree with you.

Nadal was injured. I hope people understand the full context of that career grand slam.


I've told you exactly how much better and you chose to bring up a season in which CP3 breaks his hand where his team still fell short.

But why does it matter to bring up a "normal sized" PG?

valade16
06-09-2016, 09:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmAyRyU520E

Reggie Miller "For me, not winning a championship, is the greatest disappointment of my professional career."

That's straight from a guy in the exact scenario we are contemplating.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 11:33 AM
I'll be brief:

1a. I wasn't. There are about 100 greatest players of all time or more and not all of them won championships.

We are just so far apart on our opinions here... You seem comfortable taking Michael Jordan and Dominique Wilkins and labeling both as "top 100 greatest players of all time" and moving on. I'm thoroughly against that. There is a chasm that separates those two players. That's why people make top 10 lists and debate them. It's fun and it creates debate. It also allows you to separate the truly legendary players from the rest of the pack.


1b. Yes, that would have been a better poll question, more interesting. Then it isn't a diss thread.

I feel like it's the complete opposite. All of the people voting for "neither" are the ones dissing them. I believe they are so incredibly talented that they have the potential to rank among the best players of all-time and yet neither has achieved the ultimate goal of professional sports which is winning a championship. That's a disappointment to them and their legacies.


2. I didn't. They'd have simply been in a better position and the league would have benefitted too. btw, it was someone else that suggested they be in the East.
3. there's a difference between valid reasons and excuses.

If you have to list 8 "valid reasons" for why a player hasn't accomplished a goal at that point it sounds like 1 big excuse.


Not in the role he's in now with the team he has now. The West is too strong. If Durant leaves OKC to to East and the Thunder become Westbrook's team, I could see a healthy Clippers climbing high as #2 in the West. But the Spurs will still be strong and even healthy, the Clippers are not better than the Warriors.

"Before he retires" is pretty open. Kidd won a ring before he retired but not nearly in the same role he held with the Nets.

Makes sense.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2016, 11:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmAyRyU520E

Reggie Miller "For me, not winning a championship, is the greatest disappointment of my professional career."

That's straight from a guy in the exact scenario we are contemplating.

You and me are lockstep on this one. The players themselves admit it's a disappointment. You think KD is satisfied with just making all-star teams at this point his career? Be serious. Nice find Valade.

ink
06-09-2016, 12:01 PM
We are just so far apart on our opinions here... You seem comfortable taking Michael Jordan and Dominique Wilkins and labeling both as "top 100 greatest players of all time" and moving on. I'm thoroughly against that. There is a chasm that separates those two players. That's why people make top 10 lists and debate them. It's fun and it creates debate. It also allows you to separate the truly legendary players from the rest of the pack.



I feel like it's the complete opposite. All of the people voting for "neither" are the ones dissing them. I believe they are so incredibly talented that they have the potential to rank among the best players of all-time and yet neither has achieved the ultimate goal of professional sports which is winning a championship. That's a disappointment to them and their legacies.



If you have to list 8 "valid reasons" for why a player hasn't accomplished a goal at that point it sounds like 1 big excuse.



Makes sense.

Well there's a chasm between us anyway lol. I just don't find that this has anything to do with the actual sport. I'm far more interested, for example, in how Steve Kerr and Michael Jordan combined as teammates, not in terms of egos and "rankings" but in terms of actual game dynamics. You're right, I do see MJ and Nique through the same lens and I'm totally fine with that. The competition is between offence and defence on the court, not between us fans or the media haggling about rankings or disappointments. The latter really no meaning when playing the game itself. No one is ever going to be able to make a valid argument that John Stockton wasn't a phenom on the court. Enjoying something like that is all I ask for in my favourite game.

edit in: btw, choosing "neither" isn't dissing anyone. It's honouring both.

ink
06-09-2016, 12:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmAyRyU520E

Reggie Miller "For me, not winning a championship, is the greatest disappointment of my professional career."

That's straight from a guy in the exact scenario we are contemplating.

I have no problem with the player being disappointed. What's irrelevant for me is fan or media disappointment. And Miller is an example of a player, like Ewing, who never won because he and the rest of the league were side-swiped by a dynasty.

valade16
06-09-2016, 12:39 PM
I have no problem with the player being disappointed. What's irrelevant for me is fan or media disappointment. And Miller is an example of a player, like Ewing, who never won because he and the rest of the league were side-swiped by a dynasty.

I agree that context definitely needs to be taken into account when judging anyone's rings or lack thereof. I don't know if we're getting hung up on the word disappointed as if their career was a failure. Nobody is saying CP3 or KD are failures. But it's about ability/expectations vs. accomplishments.

If you can run 2 miles in 10:00 flat, running it in 12:00 is a disappointment for that specific person. To almost everyone, 12:00 for 2 miles is a tremendous accomplishment, but because that guy had the ability and was capable of more, we look at what he did achieve vs. what he could have and they don't match.

It is the same with CP3 and KD's careers. KD and CP3 have the talent to challenge for Top 15 best players to ever play the game.

hugepatsfan
06-09-2016, 02:07 PM
There's a difference between someone's career being a disappointment and them having a great career with disappointing aspects to it. Pretty simple IMO

valade16
06-09-2016, 02:14 PM
There's a difference between someone's career being a disappointment and them having a great career with disappointing aspects to it. Pretty simple IMO

That is a great distinction.

ink
06-09-2016, 02:15 PM
There's a difference between someone's career being a disappointment and them having a great career with disappointing aspects to it. Pretty simple IMO


That is a great distinction.

Totally agree.

Chronz
06-09-2016, 02:49 PM
Wait, has anyone actually heard a player say they are anything but disappointed with not winning a title? Such a lame point.

Reggie Miller showed how disappointed he was in not winning a title when he chose not to join the Celtics during the reign of dominance. Somethings matter more than winning to people.

valade16
06-09-2016, 02:51 PM
Wait, has anyone actually heard a player say they are anything but disappointed with not winning a title? Such a lame point.

Reggie Miller showed how disappointed he was in not winning a title when he chose not to join the Celtics during the reign of dominance. Somethings matter more than winning to people.

What does this mean?

hugepatsfan
06-09-2016, 03:12 PM
Wait, has anyone actually heard a player say they are anything but disappointed with not winning a title? Such a lame point.

Reggie Miller showed how disappointed he was in not winning a title when he chose not to join the Celtics during the reign of dominance. Somethings matter more than winning to people.

That's a horrible example you're trying to cite. Him not coming out of retirement doesn't mean it wasn't disappointing to him that he never won a ring. Absurd way to frame that.

Not winning a ring is disappoint. PERIOD. There's literally no way you could ever try to frame it anyway whatsoever that it isn't disappointing. It doesn't invalidate an entire career but it's moronic to pretend it isn't disappointing.

Chronz
06-09-2016, 04:00 PM
What does this mean?

Could have won a title but didn't want to come out of retirement. Power to him

Chronz
06-09-2016, 04:01 PM
That's a horrible example you're trying to cite. Him not coming out of retirement doesn't mean it wasn't disappointing to him that he never won a ring. Absurd way to frame that.

Not winning a ring is disappoint. PERIOD. There's literally no way you could ever try to frame it anyway whatsoever that it isn't disappointing. It doesn't invalidate an entire career but it's moronic to pretend it isn't disappointing.

LOL. Whos pretending? Its clearly not disapointing enough to chase for him was my point

valade16
06-09-2016, 04:01 PM
Could have won a title but didn't want to come out of retirement. Power to him

Oh I had actually completely forgotten about that.

mngopher35
06-09-2016, 04:18 PM
I get that every player wants to win a title so when they don't it is "disappointing" to them but that in no way diminishes their entire career to the point of being so imo. Actually winning it takes more than that individual, it is a team effort. Everyone wants to win one and some players are put in great situations to do so while others have far more difficult roads.

Just saying there is a difference between individual disappointment and someones overall career being disappointing compared to others.

smith&wesson
06-09-2016, 04:49 PM
- Durant has been to the WCF's, NBa Finals
- Paul hasn't even made it to the conference finals despite having the team and talent to get there.
- Durant is younger and still has time to get his.
- Paul's window is closing as he is turning 32 this year.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-09-2016, 08:47 PM
This guy gets it. Did you consider CP3?

Definitely, but he was the best PG in the league for years typically playing on a team that isn't ready to contend for a championship in a conference that has at least 3 teams that were flat out better since he go to LAC. Honestly, I don't think either are disappointments, but considering that we had all these huge expectations for Durant I'd say he's been a bigger disappointment between the two.

More-Than-Most
06-09-2016, 09:19 PM
Both of these guys will end up being top 20 players ever.... There is no PG that id take over Paul outside of Magic..... That is how godly he has been for years on both sides of the ball... This is another example of us using Rings in a moronic way.... Durant and CP3 have been godly neither one of them are gonna be dissappointments.... CP3 just happened to enter his prime when a guy called Lebron James a once in a lifetime talent was entering the league.... Its similar to a stockton/Malone type thing... They just happened to be great in a league that had MJ.... Durant has had to deal with a Lebron James and now one of the best teams ever in the warriors... We need to stop using championships as a measuring stick because its uttery moronic.

More-Than-Most
06-09-2016, 09:22 PM
- Durant has been to the WCF's, NBa Finals
- Paul hasn't even made it to the conference finals despite having the team and talent to get there.
- Durant is younger and still has time to get his.
- Paul's window is closing as he is turning 32 this year.

See and this is where I call ********... we just look at wins/losses and over look facts all while putting things into context.... CP3 was amazing the last what 2 or 3 years in the playoffs on both sides of the ball. Literally played better than just about anyone but had bad luck/better teams/injuries that screwed his teams over so again its not as simple as saying he didnt make it to a certain point in the playoffs.... This type of thinking is flawed and wrong on so many levels.

Last year CP3 avg 21/8/4/2 on 51 percent shooting and played insane defense over a 12 game span.... This year he avg 28/8/5/3 on 48 percent shooting and lost in 4 games lol
2 years ago 20/10/4/3 on 47 percent shooting again with insane defense.... Lol what more could he have done????

This is ludicrous.

valade16
06-09-2016, 11:03 PM
Both of these guys will end up being top 20 players ever.... There is no PG that id take over Paul outside of Magic..... That is how godly he has been for years on both sides of the ball... This is another example of us using Rings in a moronic way.... Durant and CP3 have been godly neither one of them are gonna be dissappointments.... CP3 just happened to enter his prime when a guy called Lebron James a once in a lifetime talent was entering the league.... Its similar to a stockton/Malone type thing... They just happened to be great in a league that had MJ.... Durant has had to deal with a Lebron James and now one of the best teams ever in the warriors... We need to stop using championships as a measuring stick because its uttery moronic.

Big O?

More-Than-Most
06-09-2016, 11:11 PM
Big O?

I can live with that.... there is a very short list in my opinion... I dont mind stock either because he was defensively sound as well and did everything

valade16
06-09-2016, 11:17 PM
I can live with that.... there is a very short list in my opinion... I dont mind stock either because he was defensively sound as well and did everything

I was also going to include Curry in my question initially, he's been that good the last 2 seasons.

Magic, Big O, Curry, CP3/Stockton

Are those the top 5 now? I know Isiah is usually top 5 then you have the Kidd/Frazier/Nash/Payton level

But I feel the top guys are probably the best 5.

SeoulBeatz
06-09-2016, 11:25 PM
CP3. Every year he doesn't make it to the conf finals it's everyone else's fault except his according to A lot of people.

it takes a team to win a championship. unfortunately this year Paul and Griffin got hurt and the series was over.

but Paul actually steps his game up in the postseason:

21.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, 2.4 spg, 48%FG, 38%3pt, 84%FT.

Those are phenomenal numbers for a PG especially in postseason play.

There's not much more he can do individually to help his team win.

and to answer the OP, neither of these players are a disappointment by any stretch.

sometimes even great players don't win championships; it's just the nature of the game.

i blame the celtics, lakers, MJ, Kobe/Shaq, and the Spurs.

blahblahyoutoo
06-09-2016, 11:43 PM
Exactly. Rhymeratic gets it. It's all about perspective. Chris Paul is arguably the greatest point guard of the last 20 years and hasn't made a finals. That's not right.

curry is the great pg in the last 20 years and has made the finals twice.

blahblahyoutoo
06-09-2016, 11:50 PM
Neither. As an individual, you only control so much in a team sport. It's shocking to me that most of you still can't grasp that. Making an NBA finals is so hard. Winning one is the hardest thing for a team to do. Why we judge individuals on team accomplishments, I will never understand.

true, but among the major sports, it is by far the one where a single player has the most influence on a team's success. witness MJ, LBJ, shaq, etc.

blahblahyoutoo
06-09-2016, 11:55 PM
I agree with you.

However, there is still time for Durant to dig himself out. He is quite a player and does well in the postseason.

fo realios? was we not watching the same playoffs last month?

YAALREADYKNO
06-10-2016, 12:31 AM
it takes a team to win a championship. unfortunately this year Paul and Griffin got hurt and the series was over.

but Paul actually steps his game up in the postseason:

21.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, 2.4 spg, 48%FG, 38%3pt, 84%FT.

Those are phenomenal numbers for a PG especially in postseason play.

There's not much more he can do individually to help his team win.

and to answer the OP, neither of these players are a disappointment by any stretch.

sometimes even great players don't win championships; it's just the nature of the game.

i blame the celtics, lakers, MJ, Kobe/Shaq, and the Spurs.

We're not even talking the NBA finals with cp3 were talking the conf finals. He's had more than enough help to at least get out of the 2nd round smh

More-Than-Most
06-10-2016, 02:09 AM
We're not even talking the NBA finals with cp3 were talking the conf finals. He's had more than enough help to at least get out of the 2nd round smh

really? His amazing play seems to say other wise? Maybe the players around him didnt step up? You cant do what he does in the post season on both ends of the floor and be considered a disappointment

More-Than-Most
06-10-2016, 02:11 AM
I was also going to include Curry in my question initially, he's been that good the last 2 seasons.

Magic, Big O, Curry, CP3/Stockton

Are those the top 5 now? I know Isiah is usually top 5 then you have the Kidd/Frazier/Nash/Payton level

But I feel the top guys are probably the best 5.

Id put curry on the Kidd level... Just feels wrong to put him above Kid after only 4 great seasons.... Kidd cant touch curry offensively but curry cant touch kidd defensively... I always hated Kidd and CP3 because I was a Nash guy and hated people saying they were better but their 2 way game made them better.... The interesting thing about that top 5 is curry instantly becomes the worst defender on the last with magic being next.

When all is said and done curry likely passes a few of those guys.

Sadds The Gr8
06-10-2016, 02:17 AM
Neither is a disappointment. For the fun of the thread though I vote CP3

YAALREADYKNO
06-10-2016, 07:46 AM
really? His amazing play seems to say other wise? Maybe the players around him didnt step up? You cant do what he does in the post season on both ends of the floor and be considered a disappointment

People act like Cp3 needs the dream team around him in order to get any of the blame. Yes he hasn't played with the greatest rosters but to not even reach the conference finals? he's supposed to be this "God like" PG and it's not like hes playing with scrubs out there. In 08 against the Spurs in game 7 janero Pargo of all people exploded in the 4th if I remember correctly and Paul was no where to be found down the stretch. Duncan was held to 42% shooting and David west was putting up over 20ppg. Still not enough help?

smith&wesson
06-10-2016, 11:20 AM
See and this is where I call ********... we just look at wins/losses and over look facts all while putting things into context.... CP3 was amazing the last what 2 or 3 years in the playoffs on both sides of the ball. Literally played better than just about anyone but had bad luck/better teams/injuries that screwed his teams over so again its not as simple as saying he didnt make it to a certain point in the playoffs.... This type of thinking is flawed and wrong on so many levels.

Last year CP3 avg 21/8/4/2 on 51 percent shooting and played insane defense over a 12 game span.... This year he avg 28/8/5/3 on 48 percent shooting and lost in 4 games lol
2 years ago 20/10/4/3 on 47 percent shooting again with insane defense.... Lol what more could he have done????

This is ludicrous.

I believe the thread question was who is the biggest disappointment.

No one is saying Cp3 is not a good player lol he is a super star. But like you say weather it was injuries, better teams, or whatever it was Paul hasn't competed in a conference finals yet, where as Durant has been there a couple times now, and also to the finals once and he is younger so he has more time to achieve that goal where as Paul's window is closing.

Perhaps the thread question was Ludacris to begin with because bother players are incredible and I wouldn't call either a disappointment. But if I had to chose between the two I would say CP3 for the above mentioned reasons.

smith&wesson
06-10-2016, 11:33 AM
Id put curry on the Kidd level... Just feels wrong to put him above Kid after only 4 great seasons.... Kidd cant touch curry offensively but curry cant touch kidd defensively... I always hated Kidd and CP3 because I was a Nash guy and hated people saying they were better but their 2 way game made them better.... The interesting thing about that top 5 is curry instantly becomes the worst defender on the last with magic being next.

When all is said and done curry likely passes a few of those guys.

I tried to put my fav pg's in order.. its really difficult as there were soo many of them. I honestly have no idea where I would rank Cp3, WB, Curry ... I think it will be easier to place them once they finish their careers. I mean look at guys like Penny Hardaway, Derick Rose... where would they be on the list if their careers weren't impacted so heavily by injuries.

Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Payton
Nash
Kidd
Tim Hardaway
Walt Fraizer
Bob Cousy

rhymeratic
06-10-2016, 12:06 PM
You know who has been disappointing...

Dwight Howard
Anthony Bennett
Emeka Okafor
Marvin Williams
Andrea Bargnani
Joel Embiid
Greg Oden

valade16
06-10-2016, 01:32 PM
Dwight Howard disappointing? Given what people thought he would be when he was drafted I think a 3x DPOY who led his team to the Finals is not a bad career for him. Unless you think he should have led his team to a title?