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View Full Version : Rubio wants trade if Wolves miss playoffs-doesn't know they needto trade him to do so



JasonJohnHorn
06-06-2016, 06:54 PM
I had to laugh out loud when I read this:
http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/rubio-may-seek-trade-if-timberwolves-miss-playoffs-again-412391.html

Dude doesn't realize that his $!##TY @$$ shooting is one of the reasons the T-Wolves are missing the playoffs.



This guy has been in the league five years and has yet to crack .400 from the field. JHC!!!!!

He frankly isn't even a starter in this league with shooting like that. I respect his all around game and defense, but when you are that much of a liability on the other end....


Thoughts? Anybody else find this ironic?

Matrix3132
06-06-2016, 07:08 PM
This story has blown up a bit and, honestly, people are overreacting. It's funny that you mention his all-around game and defense because watching Kyrie in the finals, I think Rubio would actually be a better fit for this cavs team right now.

But look at his quotes rather than the dramatic headlines. He said "Next season will be crucial for me." and that after playing for a bit, he might look for a championship caliber team.

Sure, he was overhyped and hasn't become the 15/12/8 guy that some people predicted but that team has had so much turnover over his time there that I'm surprised he didn't want out sooner.

Also, they were 12 games out of the 8th seed, him shooting 45% from the field isn't going to improve them 12 games. I think anyone who is going into their 6th season without a playoff experience has to wonder if the grass is greener elsewhere

warfelg
06-06-2016, 07:24 PM
Rubio should want to play for Coach Pringles.

Matrix3132
06-06-2016, 07:32 PM
Rubio should want to play for Coach Pringles.

Why? He can't shoot and he plays good defense....

warfelg
06-06-2016, 07:33 PM
Why? He can't shoot and he plays good defense....

Rubio is a great 7 seconds or less PG with his passing.

Matrix3132
06-06-2016, 07:40 PM
Rubio is a great 7 seconds or less PG with his passing.

I was half joking. I would be intrigued, but in all honesty, I think the passing works in that system because the defense needs to respect the point guard's offense and even felton/lin could go off if left open enough

numba1CHANGsta
06-06-2016, 07:50 PM
Never really understood why people included Rubio as part of MIN young core, he's overrated and isn't that good. Even LaVine is a bit overrated. If I'm MIN I'd trade both guys for a top pick and draft a better PG and a true SG or PF. Dunn-Murray/Hield-Wiggins-Towns would make a great team or Dunn-Wiggins-Bender-Towns would be just nasty.

Aust
06-06-2016, 08:27 PM
I wonder if Minny takes Dunn as his replacement.

MTar786
06-06-2016, 08:31 PM
rubio needs to be on a team with a russell westbrook. Livingston would be the perfect player to play with westbook but rubio would be great for the thunder too. rubio is a defensive player and can handle the ball in crunch time when westbrook shouldnt be playing point guard. this will allow westbrook sg and pg at times... rubio isnt going to take up shots either. im sure a trade could be made between these two teams.

rubio could have been such a good player if he could just shoot. but instead he is just a rondo lite

Raps18-19 Champ
06-06-2016, 08:34 PM
The Wolves play better with Rubio than without him I think. Rubio's a big reason why KAT was as good as he was.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 08:57 PM
The Wolves play better with Rubio than without him I think. Rubio's a big reason why KAT was as good as he was.

This is true. His on/off court differential is a +8.0 for his career. His yearly beakdown is like so,

+7.4
+0.0
+12.6
+10.9
+8.3

Raps18-19 Champ
06-06-2016, 09:55 PM
I had to laugh out loud when I read this:
http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/rubio-may-seek-trade-if-timberwolves-miss-playoffs-again-412391.html

Dude doesn't realize that his $!##TY @$$ shooting is one of the reasons the T-Wolves are missing the playoffs.



This guy has been in the league five years and has yet to crack .400 from the field. JHC!!!!!

He frankly isn't even a starter in this league with shooting like that. I respect his all around game and defense, but when you are that much of a liability on the other end....


Thoughts? Anybody else find this ironic?

Not ironic at all because your analysis is **** wrong.

JasonJohnHorn
06-06-2016, 10:06 PM
Not ironic at all because your analysis is **** wrong.

We'll see when they get somebody to replace him.

As I said, I respect his all-around game and defense. But he is a liability on offense. You can throw all the stats you want up about him that make him look good: the bottom line is teams can cheat on defense when he on the court and that makes it hard for other guys on his team to get open looks.

I don't really care what the +/- is on a team that won 16 or 29 games.

jerellh528
06-06-2016, 10:28 PM
He prolly just feels like the team is going in another direction personnel wise and wants to get ahead of it for his pride's sake by making it seem like it's on his terms.

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 12:27 AM
Trading Rubio would push us further away from the playoffs which seem like an attainable goal to have right now. His value isn't very high league wide so we would likely be downgrading in the end (depending on the piece it could still be worth it but unlikely imo).

Looking at this team though I think Rubio fits in very well actually. Our key 3 pieces to build around are all already solid scorers when put in the right positions and should only continue to grow (Rubio helps this). These 3 averaged almost 60 ppg since February (basically when starting together) and on pretty solid efficiency as well. None of them are great at creating for others though which is why Rubio fits in so nicely on offense as the distributor to set everything up. If we look at some of the weaknesses between Lavine/Wiggins things like defense and rebounding might come up as issues as well outside of creating for others. Sure enough Defense and Rebounding also happen to be areas where Rubio is strong. I know he can't shoot/score but outside of that he covers up for so many areas we lack with our young talent. For that reason I think he is more valuable to us than what we could get in a trade.

If we end up drafting Dunn maybe in a year or so we can re-visit the idea of trading him but I don't see it right now.

tredigs
06-07-2016, 12:54 AM
Rubio's a positive on both ends of the floor. His lack of scoring ability holds him back from being a great offensive player, but he's still magic with the ball in his hands; easily one of the top playmakers in the game. And a terrific defender, one of the best I've seen at guarding Curry in the NBA. Despite his lack of scoring, I've always liked him as a player. FWIW, he actually rated 5th among PG's in RPM this season (Curry > Paul > Westbrook > Lowry > RUBIO > Conley). He also managed to hit the 3 at a respectable clip this past season (~33%), and he's a very strong FT shooter (85% last year). You're not going to get a better return than what you have with Rubio.

kobe4thewinbang
06-07-2016, 01:06 AM
Rubio showed improvement last season, but I heard his defense is not good and Thibodeau, hello. I think his days are numbered and honestly I think they should've parted with him sooner. Maybe go hard after Conley in free agency (a good defensive player, All-Team history) and try to sell him on the Thibodeau culture.

BKLYNpigeon
06-07-2016, 03:01 AM
Rubio is actually pretty good. His FG% is getting much better, but he's been a very good all around PG in the NBA. He turned out to be a great defender. Stastically he's the best defender on Steph Curry this year.

uprightciti
06-07-2016, 06:11 AM
Trade with Houston - Beverly for Rubio straight up


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Monta is beast
06-07-2016, 06:22 AM
Trade with Houston - Beverly for Rubio straight up


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I am the captain now

MonroeFAN
06-07-2016, 07:27 AM
The Wolves play better with Rubio than without him I think. Rubio's a big reason why KAT was as good as he was.

Advanced team metrics should be thrown out the window when your team is bad and always has been.

MonroeFAN
06-07-2016, 07:31 AM
Rubio's a positive on both ends of the floor. His lack of scoring ability holds him back from being a great offensive player, but he's still magic with the ball in his hands; easily one of the top playmakers in the game. And a terrific defender, one of the best I've seen at guarding Curry in the NBA. Despite his lack of scoring, I've always liked him as a player. FWIW, he actually rated 5th among PG's in RPM this season (Curry > Paul > Westbrook > Lowry > RUBIO > Conley). He also managed to hit the 3 at a respectable clip this past season (~33%), and he's a very strong FT shooter (85% last year). You're not going to get a better return than what you have with Rubio.

A stat that prioritizes Matthew Delavedova & Patty Mills over Damian Lillard.

IndyRealist
06-07-2016, 08:31 AM
We'll see when they get somebody to replace him.

As I said, I respect his all-around game and defense. But he is a liability on offense. You can throw all the stats you want up about him that make him look good: the bottom line is teams can cheat on defense when he on the court and that makes it hard for other guys on his team to get open looks.

I don't really care what the +/- is on a team that won 16 or 29 games.

Positive +/- numbers mean a lot more on a net negative team than positive +/- on a winning team.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 09:52 AM
Rubio needs a chance to defend his comments, sometimes things are translated wrong, or without context. That being said, I don't blame him. Remember, he played professionally, and on the Spanish national team, prior to playing for the Wolves. The Wolves have offered nothing but pure dysfunction his entire tenure, and only last year, showed a positive direction. I don't blame him for wanting to make it to the playoffs now, or look elsewhere.

To the OP's comments regarding Rubio's game.....do you realize we would be laughing stock bad without him? His shot sucks, yes. But he is elite in a few ways as well. Probably a top 3 defensive player at his position, great rebounder for his position, maybe the best passer in the game. He is excellent at running an offense, controlling tempo, and has gone from overrated to underrated at this point of his career. Btw, his TS%, or scoring efficiency, has essentially hit league average, so he isn't killing us on that part of his game anymore (he draws a ton of fouls per shot attempt is why).

Not even worried a little. Even if we don't make the playoffs, we are in line for a 15-20 game win improvement, which will keep him around. We could always draft Murray or Dunn, and groom his replacement, but I am not worried in the slightest about this season, or next regarding Rubio. Just stay healthy

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 09:54 AM
We'll see when they get somebody to replace him.

As I said, I respect his all-around game and defense. But he is a liability on offense. You can throw all the stats you want up about him that make him look good: the bottom line is teams can cheat on defense when he on the court and that makes it hard for other guys on his team to get open looks.

I don't really care what the +/- is on a team that won 16 or 29 games.

beyond stats, the eye test shows you his value on offense. The team runs so much better with him playing. That goes way back into his Spain days

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 09:56 AM
Rubio showed improvement last season, but I heard his defense is not good and Thibodeau, hello. I think his days are numbered and honestly I think they should've parted with him sooner. Maybe go hard after Conley in free agency (a good defensive player, All-Team history) and try to sell him on the Thibodeau culture.

you should watch then, and not listen. Rubio is an excellent defender. I am pumped to see what he can do leading the point of attack in the "ice" defense.

FYL_McVeezy
06-07-2016, 10:07 AM
I would pick him up to start a backcourt overhaul in NY but we have no assets :(

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 10:16 AM
I would pick him up to start a backcourt overhaul in NY but we have no assets :(

as much as I think Rubio is underrated at this point, if you truly are going to run a triangle, he is the last PG in the league you want haha

FYL_McVeezy
06-07-2016, 10:19 AM
as much as I think Rubio is underrated at this point, if you truly are going to run a triangle, he is the last PG in the league you want haha

Since we hired Hornacek, we'll be running a more uptempo offense...not the triangle exclusively :clap:

Looking at what he did in Phoenix with Bledsoe/Dragic....Rubio would destroy in that system here with Melo/KP :drool:

But this is much to do about nothin....Rubio will be a monster for you guys under Thibs

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 10:51 AM
Since we hired Hornacek, we'll be running a more uptempo offense...not the triangle exclusively :clap:

Looking at what he did in Phoenix with Bledsoe/Dragic....Rubio would destroy in that system here with Melo/KP :drool:

But this is much to do about nothin....Rubio will be a monster for you guys under Thibs

Rubio will be good under Thibs. Before a late season swoon, he was actually hitting the 3 at a respectable rate, in the mid 30's. Thibs defense is to send the ball to one side of the floor, and keep it there. What better PG to have than a long, smart Rubio who reads switches as well as anyone and knocks balls loose? He is ideal for Thib's defense.

Crackadalic
06-07-2016, 11:28 AM
Remember when defense and all around game was the rage back in the day?

Now people care more about one trick ponies that shoot 3's and can't defend.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 11:42 AM
Remember when defense and all around game was the rage back in the day?

Now people care more about one trick ponies that shoot 3's and can't defend.

this sounds bad, but I wouldn't trade Rubio for Kyrie straight up.

KnicksorBust
06-07-2016, 11:50 AM
this sounds bad, but I wouldn't trade Rubio for Kyrie straight up.

Is that in a vacuum or just specifically because of the team that the Wolves already have in place?

KnicksorBust
06-07-2016, 11:53 AM
Rubio should be frustrated he hasn't made the playoffs in his whole NBA Career. How old was he when he first played in a gold medal olympic game? Kid wants to win. Would anyone really be shocked to see him averaging 12-10-5 next year and hitting 37% from 3pt? Throw in his defense with Thibs/Wiggins/KAT and that team is dangerous. Honestly I'm so jealous of Wolves fans. I love Porzingis but they have so much excitement going on with that team right now.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 12:03 PM
Is that in a vacuum or just specifically because of the team that the Wolves already have in place?

More so because of what the Wolves have. Plus, I hate Kyrie's game. He plays like he is on the street. Every time he dribbles, he puts on a show, and hasn't guarded anyone since he was born. Seriously, you are an all star PG, how do you get lost on simple switches so often?

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 12:05 PM
Rubio should be frustrated he hasn't made the playoffs in his whole NBA Career. How old was he when he first played in a gold medal olympic game? Kid wants to win. Would anyone really be shocked to see him averaging 12-10-5 next year and hitting 37% from 3pt? Throw in his defense with Thibs/Wiggins/KAT and that team is dangerous. Honestly I'm so jealous of Wolves fans. I love Porzingis but they have so much excitement going on with that team right now.

It's been a long time man, lot's of misery. I have never been this excited as a Wolves fan. Rubio as the point of attack in the "ice" defense will be lethal, just watch.

Scoots
06-07-2016, 12:09 PM
Rubio would be welcomed on the Warriors.

Tony_Starks
06-07-2016, 12:43 PM
this sounds bad, but I wouldn't trade Rubio for Kyrie straight up.

If you proposed that deal the Cavs would laugh hilariously and turn it into a Instagram meme.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 01:05 PM
If you proposed that deal the Cavs would laugh hilariously and turn it into a Instagram meme.

good for them. I could care less. I have never thought Irving's game is a winning game. He is 36th in RPM in the league, due to his defense being atrocious. He doesn't create anything for others. As good as he is scoring for himself, he offers literally nothing else. Never liked his game at all. The Cavs don't miss him at all when he sits.

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 01:11 PM
this sounds bad, but I wouldn't trade Rubio for Kyrie straight up.

It doesn't sound bad to me but I know what you mean. I definitely agree with you though, not a fan of Kyrie's game.


If you proposed that deal the Cavs would laugh hilariously and turn it into a Instagram meme.

There it is. Ya I am sure they would hate it as well but right now Rubio is what holds our young core together while Kyrie is hurting his team in the finals do to his liabilities. I think Kyrie is too much of a me player offensively and lacks defense which is not what we want with our young talent.

Tony_Starks
06-07-2016, 01:11 PM
good for them. I could care less. I have never thought Irving's game is a winning game. He is 36th in RPM in the league, due to his defense being atrocious. He doesn't create anything for others. As good as he is scoring for himself, he offers literally nothing else. Never liked his game at all. The Cavs don't miss him at all when he sits.

I, Lebron James, the NBA, and the world in general disagree with you.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 01:18 PM
I, Lebron James, the NBA, and the world in general disagree with you.

a young team like ours doesn't need a street baller, no matter how good he is at times scoring. It needs an organizer, and someone getting easy looks for guys still learning to play NBA basketball.

Again, I don't care what you, or the populous says on this matter. I personally don't like Irving's game. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player, I just don't think he is that good of a player myself. All the points he scores, and his team is no better or worse if he plays or not. That is literally the definition of a replacement level player. If I am paying a guy $16,000,000+ a year, I would hope he produces better than a replacement level player line.

Scoots
06-07-2016, 01:31 PM
If you proposed that deal the Cavs would laugh hilariously and turn it into a Instagram meme.

If we can assume both will be totally healthy for the foreseeable future ... I would do that trade for the Cavs, I would not for the Wolves.

Hawkeye is right. Rubio is under-rated, Irving is over-rated. It's just that Irving's game is sexier, but the things Irving does well are more easily replaced than the things Rubio does well.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 02:56 PM
Rubio is very bad as a starting PG..

Can't score, can't shoot. His defense is overrated (as are most other PGs). He's probably never shut down a premier PG in his life. If he has I'd like to see play by play game film so I can break it down myself.

I'd be fine with him as a backup or starter making backup money (ex: Patrick Beverly @ $6M)... but he's making $13-15M over the next set of years. Whether the salary cap will jump or not he's heavily overpaid.

He should be topping out at $8M, and the Wolves should have treated him as a stop gap, understanding it's unlikely you can make the playoffs with him as the starter. Even Spain knew/knows better than to start Rubio. Somehow Minnesota didn't get that memo.

KnicksorBust
06-07-2016, 02:59 PM
More so because of what the Wolves have. Plus, I hate Kyrie's game. He plays like he is on the street. Every time he dribbles, he puts on a show, and hasn't guarded anyone since he was born. Seriously, you are an all star PG, how do you get lost on simple switches so often?

In fairness that is happening to everybody on the Cavs right now. :laugh:


It's been a long time man, lot's of misery. I have never been this excited as a Wolves fan. Rubio as the point of attack in the "ice" defense will be lethal, just watch.

Oh I'll be watching. I'm considering going all in on the Wolves as my 2nd favorite team next year. Root for them 80 games a season. Follow them all year. Maybe get a Towns jersey. I coached against him when he was in HS. Great kid.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 03:06 PM
If we can assume both will be totally healthy for the foreseeable future ... I would do that trade for the Cavs, I would not for the Wolves.

Hawkeye is right. Rubio is under-rated, Irving is over-rated. It's just that Irving's game is sexier, but the things Irving does well are more easily replaced than the things Rubio does well.

What exactly does Rubio do that can't be replaced?

With more flex and motion offenses being implemented around the NBA, a PG who needs the ball is less and less important, and passing is Rubio's strength.

So when you exclude passing, there are a ton of players at the college and D League level that can play decent D and hustle for boards, but can't shoot or score worth a lick.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 03:11 PM
a young team like ours doesn't need a street baller, no matter how good he is at times scoring. It needs an organizer, and someone getting easy looks for guys still learning to play NBA basketball.

Again, I don't care what you, or the populous says on this matter. I personally don't like Irving's game. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player, I just don't think he is that good of a player myself. All the points he scores, and his team is no better or worse if he plays or not. That is literally the definition of a replacement level player. If I am paying a guy $16,000,000+ a year, I would hope he produces better than a replacement level player line.

You speak as though Rubio doesn't make a ton.

I agree with some points on Irving, and I don't really like either as a player. But if you're comparing Irving at $16M who can also put a lot of fans in the seats to Rubio at $13M, it's too easy of a choice if I'm GM.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 03:14 PM
You speak as though Rubio doesn't make a ton.

I agree with some points on Irving, and I don't really like either as a player. But if you're comparing Irving at $16M who can also put a lot of fans in the seats to Rubio at $13M, it's too easy of a choice if I'm GM.

you and I don't agree on Rubio, I think we both know that.

tredigs
06-07-2016, 03:14 PM
A stat that prioritizes Matthew Delavedova & Patty Mills over Damian Lillard.

Please don't be "stat-hawk guy" looking for outliers Monroe, specifically when comparing starters to role players. Or, if so, why not regale us with your insight into this matter (and please do not use a stat of any sort in doing so, as it will inevitably have an outlier).

JOSKOMANG4
06-07-2016, 03:29 PM
Trade ideas:

1. Trade Rubio & 5th overall pick to Cavs for Kyrie Irving.

Cavs Lineup: Thompson/Love/Lebron/Shump/Rubio. 5th Pick: Buddy Hield, SG OKLA

Wolves Lineup: Dieng/Towns/Wiggins/Lavine/Irving

2. Trade Rubio, Pekovic, Muhammed, Bjelica, and 5th overall pick & 2018 1st rd pick(protected lottery) to Bulls for Rose & Butler.

Bulls Lineup: Pek/Mirotic/Mcdermott/Hield/rubio. 6th man: Muhammed
wolves Lineup: Dieng/Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Rose. 6th man: Lavine

3. Rubio & 5th overall to Bucks for Kris Middleton & 10th overall pick.

bucks lineup: Henson/Monroe/Parker/Giannis/Rubio 5th pick: Murray
Wolves: Dieng/Towns/Wiggins/MIddleton/Lavine

beasted86
06-07-2016, 03:34 PM
Rubio's a positive on both ends of the floor. His lack of scoring ability holds him back from being a great offensive player, but he's still magic with the ball in his hands; easily one of the top playmakers in the game. And a terrific defender, one of the best I've seen at guarding Curry in the NBA. Despite his lack of scoring, I've always liked him as a player. FWIW, he actually rated 5th among PG's in RPM this season (Curry > Paul > Westbrook > Lowry > RUBIO > Conley). He also managed to hit the 3 at a respectable clip this past season (~33%), and he's a very strong FT shooter (85% last year). You're not going to get a better return than what you have with Rubio.

Isn't it weird that people used to make similar arguments with arbitrary stats supporting Love as a great (not just good) player?

Rubio is fool's gold. A money-ball all-star who in reality is a glorified backup.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 03:40 PM
Trade ideas:

1. Trade Rubio & 5th overall pick to Cavs for Kyrie Irving.

Cavs Lineup: Thompson/Love/Lebron/Shump/Rubio. 5th Pick: Buddy Hield, SG OKLA

Wolves Lineup: Dieng/Towns/Wiggins/Lavine/Irving

2. Trade Rubio, Pekovic, Muhammed, Bjelica, and 5th overall pick & 2018 1st rd pick(protected lottery) to Bulls for Rose & Butler.

Bulls Lineup: Pek/Mirotic/Mcdermott/Hield/rubio. 6th man: Muhammed
wolves Lineup: Dieng/Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Rose. 6th man: Lavine

3. Rubio & 5th overall to Bucks for Kris Middleton & 10th overall pick.

bucks lineup: Henson/Monroe/Parker/Giannis/Rubio 5th pick: Murray
Wolves: Dieng/Towns/Wiggins/MIddleton/Lavine

Number 2 is intriguing if the Bulls are ready to rebuild right away. They tank for a season and could have a core again by 2018, and Rubio as expiring trade bait.

On the flip side, a change of scenery outside of Chicago might motivate Rose in a contract year. Butler is definitely a Thibs guy and possibly the team's new lesser, giving them a vet to lean on who's can actually contribute (unlike KG)

The other 2 seem very unlikely.

Scoots
06-07-2016, 03:44 PM
<sarcasm>I'm sure Rose and Butler would be thrilled to still have to put up with each other, and Rose would be thrilled to be back with Thibs.</sarcasm>

beasted86
06-07-2016, 03:48 PM
<sarcasm>I'm sure Rose and Butler would be thrilled to still have to put up with each other, and Rose would be thrilled to be back with Thibs.</sarcasm>
He's in a contract year. He can either do everything possible to have a productive year, or he can Rondo himself.

IndyRealist
06-07-2016, 04:02 PM
Isn't it weird that people used to make similar arguments with arbitrary stats supporting Love as a great (not just good) player?

Rubio is fool's gold. A money-ball all-star who in reality is a glorified backup.

Isn't weird that the sh** people say about Kevin Love is the same sh** people said about Chris Bosh?

Maybe it's because an offensive big man has to have a system built around him to succeed, because he doesn't handle the ball and can't choose to call off the play and pad his own stats like perimeter players can.

Maybe it's because a good first option doesn't always translate into a good fourth option.

Maybe it's because his PG can't set up his teammates, as has been suggested in this thread.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 04:28 PM
Isn't weird that the sh** people say about Kevin Love is the same sh** people said about Chris Bosh?

Maybe it's because an offensive big man has to have a system built around him to succeed, because he doesn't handle the ball and can't choose to call off the play and pad his own stats like perimeter players can.

Maybe it's because a good first option doesn't always translate into a good fourth option.

Maybe it's because his PG can't set up his teammates, as has been suggested in this thread.

Well the Wolves have been a terrible team. It's either some blame goes to Rubio or no blame goes to Rubio. You have to choose one obviously.

I choose the former and hold him to a high standard based on his draft position, his salary, and him saying these things about they should be a winning/playoff team.

I don't like the way he plays. A point guard who cannot contribute off the ball is fairly useless with the way the league is trending offensively. As for when he has the ball, for being such a horrid shooter, he drives the ball to the basket a pathetic amount of times per game. On defense, for all the talk of him being a good defender, he ranks way below average in opponent FG% (the primary point of defense) with everyone shooting higher than their normal. These things just can't be overlooked.

Maybe because some people make it sound like he's absolute trash is why some like to be his apologist. But what I'm saying is he's definitely not a starter and you're seeing your team up for failure depending on him in that role.

IndyRealist
06-07-2016, 06:28 PM
Well the Wolves have been a terrible team. It's either some blame goes to Rubio or no blame goes to Rubio. You have to choose one obviously.

I choose the former and hold him to a high standard based on his draft position, his salary, and him saying these things about they should be a winning/playoff team.

I don't like the way he plays. A point guard who cannot contribute off the ball is fairly useless with the way the league is trending offensively. As for when he has the ball, for being such a horrid shooter, he drives the ball to the basket a pathetic amount of times per game. On defense, for all the talk of him being a good defender, he ranks way below average in opponent FG% (the primary point of defense) with everyone shooting higher than their normal. These things just can't be overlooked.

Maybe because some people make it sound like he's absolute trash is why some like to be his apologist. But what I'm saying is he's definitely not a starter and you're seeing your team up for failure depending on him in that role.

He's certainly low volume, and he's not a good shooter at all, but he was an average scorer for a PG this year. He gets to the line and isn't atrocious from 3. 52.9 TS% vs 52.8 average for a PG. His poor shooting is mitigated by the fact that he doesn't shoot much, and when he does he gets to the line. If you couple that with him being (anecdotally) above average to great at everything else involved with being a PG, and I have trouble seeing how you consider him a backup. He's definitely not Kyrie/Lillard/Westbrook/Curry, but he's pretty comparable to John Wall (51% TS) and no one's suggesting Wall isn't a starter.

beasted86
06-07-2016, 07:30 PM
He's certainly low volume, and he's not a good shooter at all, but he was an average scorer for a PG this year. He gets to the line and isn't atrocious from 3. 52.9 TS% vs 52.8 average for a PG. His poor shooting is mitigated by the fact that he doesn't shoot much, and when he does he gets to the line. If you couple that with him being (anecdotally) above average to great at everything else involved with being a PG, and I have trouble seeing how you consider him a backup. He's definitely not Kyrie/Lillard/Westbrook/Curry, but he's pretty comparable to John Wall (51% TS) and no one's suggesting Wall isn't a starter.

I don't think your discussion point of TS% makes sense. What Rubio and Wall accumulated for TS% is irrelevant unless you believe Rubio would continue at the same TS% rate taking 18 shots a game. Based on his FG and 3P% over the past 5 years that's mathematically impossible unless he started going to the line and had waaay more FTA per night simultaneously.

Overall I don't see him as "great" at anything. And being "above average" in a couple categories and terrible in others doesn't leave him at much of a surplus of skills overall.

Players who usually excel in the hustle categories are best suited off the bench to give energy.

5ass
06-07-2016, 11:30 PM
Give me Rubio over guys like Reggie Jackson and Brandon Knight. Passing/playmaking is still the most important attribute for a PG. Rubio is elite in that category.

IndyRealist
06-08-2016, 12:13 AM
I don't think your discussion point of TS% makes sense. What Rubio and Wall accumulated for TS% is irrelevant unless you believe Rubio would continue at the same TS% rate taking 18 shots a game. Based on his FG and 3P% over the past 5 years that's mathematically impossible unless he started going to the line and had waaay more FTA per night simultaneously.

Overall I don't see him as "great" at anything. And being "above average" in a couple categories and terrible in others doesn't leave him at much of a surplus of skills overall.

Players who usually excel in the hustle categories are best suited off the bench to give energy.

If you are a below average scorer and you take a few shots a game, you don't hurt your team that much. If you are a below average scorer and you take a lot of shots, like Wall, you hurt your team more. I'm gathering from your statement you somehow believe in the usage curve, which has been proven to be bunk on numerous occasions. Low volume scorers given high usage can go up or down in efficiency, and high volume scorers given lower usage can also go up or down in efficiency. There's no correlation between the two. A player just this year was having trouble adjusting to taking less shots, I can't remember who at the moment. Essentially he said that when in a smaller role offensively he couldn't get into a rhythm and shot horribly. The usage curve myth states that he should have become more efficient the less shots he took.

Rubio is actually only terrible at one thing, shooting. Virtually everything else attributed to a point guard, he's at least average. I'm not sure what this multiple "others" you're talking about that he's terrible at. And there are things he does on offense that are above average. He gets to the free throw line about 50% more than the average PG, and hits them at a decent clip. He's an above average ballhandler, and a superb passer. He's over 3:1 ast:to.

More-Than-Most
06-08-2016, 01:12 AM
Give me Rubio over guys like Reggie Jackson and Brandon Knight. Passing/playmaking is still the most important attribute for a PG. Rubio is elite in that category.

I think Knight is already better than Rubio and the gap will widen even more soon... That being said Rubio for Kyrie isnt as far fetched as some are making it... Kyrie can score and dribble.... Rubio can pass but he has a horrid shot..... Rubio is a really really good defender where kyrie might be one of the worst defenders in basketball.

MonroeFAN
06-09-2016, 07:49 AM
Please don't be "stat-hawk guy" looking for outliers Monroe, specifically when comparing starters to role players. Or, if so, why not regale us with your insight into this matter (and please do not use a stat of any sort in doing so, as it will inevitably have an outlier).


Wins are really the only stat I care about.

I'm not trying to be a "stat-hawk-guy", but I've maintained through out that numbers like that should be thrown out if the team isn't winning, nor does it have a history of winning. My eyes have been opened up quite a bit to Rubio's defensive talent, he is a lot better than I give him credit for. People suggesting they wouldn't trade him for Irving are a bit much.

MonroeFAN
06-09-2016, 07:50 AM
I think Knight is already better than Rubio and the gap will widen even more soon... That being said Rubio for Kyrie isnt as far fetched as some are making it... Kyrie can score and dribble.... Rubio can pass but he has a horrid shot..... Rubio is a really really good defender where kyrie might be one of the worst defenders in basketball.

Reggie Jackson is definitely better than Knight. I'm not even an RJ guy, but Knight is a little B. Jackson has the ability to take over games that both of these players do not have, but I agree that each one of them has carved out a niche, while RJ tends to try and spread his skill set too far at times.

Tony_Starks
06-09-2016, 12:09 PM
The day Rubio puts up damn near 20 points in the 1st quarter of a must win game for his team is the day the earth stands still.

The notion of him being in the same breath as Kyrie is offensive, like when they used to say Kyle- history setting horrible playoff shooting-Lowry was better than Kyrie.

Hogwash!

Chronz
06-09-2016, 12:16 PM
Really wish Rubio got to be in Rondo's spot all those years ago. He would've made them much better

mrblisterdundee
06-09-2016, 12:17 PM
We all know Rubio's a bad shooter, but he can run an offense as good as any point guard, and he plays good defense. That's enough to be a starter in this league. Obviously, he needs to be surrounded by shooters. Dallas would be a great fit for him, or maybe Atlanta, or even San Antonio.

Chronz
06-09-2016, 12:18 PM
The day Rubio puts up damn near 20 points in the 1st quarter of a must win game for his team is the day the earth stands still.

The notion of him being in the same breath as Kyrie is offensive, like when they used to say Kyle- history setting horrible playoff shooting-Lowry was better than Kyrie.

Hogwash!

The day Rubio is targeted and keyed on to the tune of +70% scoring against is the day the earth stands still. I dont know about offense given they are different players but overall? Gimme Rubio on most teams. On Brons team, I'll take the buckets.

And since when is Kyrie better than Lowry?

Chronz
06-09-2016, 12:21 PM
PS. Is anyone dumb enough to think Westbrook is a good defender?

Scoots
06-11-2016, 12:17 AM
PS. Is anyone dumb enough to think Westbrook is a good defender?

Yes, a surprisingly large number. He looks like a defender.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-11-2016, 12:21 AM
We'll see when they get somebody to replace him.

As I said, I respect his all-around game and defense. But he is a liability on offense. You can throw all the stats you want up about him that make him look good: the bottom line is teams can cheat on defense when he on the court and that makes it hard for other guys on his team to get open looks.

I don't really care what the +/- is on a team that won 16 or 29 games.

So basically you looked at certain parts of his game without understanding how it helps/hurts his team overall.

beasted86
06-11-2016, 12:51 AM
So basically you looked at certain parts of his game without understanding how it helps/hurts his team overall.

Or maybe he's saying the Wolves have a bench made up of mostly guys who don't belong in the NBA, and net ratings are totally irrelevant.

MonroeFAN
06-22-2016, 01:10 PM
this sounds bad, but I wouldn't trade Rubio for Kyrie straight up.

Nothing to see here.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2016, 03:21 PM
Nothing to see here.

nothing has changed. Irving would drive Thibs insane. Don't live in the moment because he had 2 great games in the finals.