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View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting 2nd Round - 2 v 3 (ABA)



valade16
06-04-2016, 01:13 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll. (NOTE: votes by accounts with less than 100 votes will not count)

(2) Montreal 5 Basketballs

PG: Derrick Rose - Nate Archibald
SG: Mitch Richmond - Jimmy Butler
SF: Elgin Baylor - Dave Debusschere
PF: Pau Gasol - Dave Debusschere - George McGinnis
C: Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Pau Gasol - Mehmet Okur

vs.

(3) Womp Rats

PG: Steve Nash - Kenny Anderson
SG: Klay Thompson - World B Free
SF: Paul George - Glen Robinson
PF: Amare Stoudemire - Kenyon Martin
C: David Robinson - Tree Rollins

Raps08-09 Champ
06-04-2016, 02:59 PM
I'll write something up in a few hours.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 03:41 PM
I honestly have no idea who I'd rather vote for

Sadds The Gr8
06-04-2016, 03:49 PM
I think Womp Rats are the 2nd best team in this but this is an interesting matchup. I have them in 7 tho

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 04:06 PM
I already posted a response to this but its gone. Oh well. Long story short... montreal. They have defenders at all positions and nash/stat would get exposed. Plus in a close series, Kareem is the best closer. Drob was an overthinker and came up small in big moments.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 05:16 PM
I already posted a response to this but its gone. Oh well. Long story short... montreal. They have defenders at all positions and nash/stat would get exposed. Plus in a close series, Kareem is the best closer. Drob was an overthinker and came up small in big moments.

Drob definitely played worse in the playoffs, you can't debate that. But the coming up small in big moments is basically just 1 series right? I don't really get why that 1 series against Hakeem defines his entire career. Are you not allowed to have a bad series? By that logic, we could define Lebron's entire career by the 2011 Finals. I mean at the very least, can I at least get 3-4 examples (i mean 3-4 different series) of Drob coming up small in big moments? At least then there's a pattern to it and we aren't pinning it all on 1 series.

Or is this whole thing just about how he performed worse in the playoffs on the aggregate? Because that's fair. He did. Still think he gets underrated because of essentially 1 series. I don't care how badly Hakeem embarrassed him, 1 series does not make a career. I mean if it did, then couldn't Danny Green be the GOAT? Anyone remember what he did in that 2014 Finals? :laugh2:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-04-2016, 06:25 PM
I already posted a response to this but its gone. Oh well. Long story short... montreal. They have defenders at all positions and nash/stat would get exposed. Plus in a close series, Kareem is the best closer. Drob was an overthinker and came up small in big moments.

I believe it was something along the lines of





PG: Derrick Rose vs. Nash
SG: Mitch Richmond vs. Klay
SF: Elgin Baylor vs Paul George
PF: Pau Gasol vs. STAT
C: Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs. D-Rob

There's a reason these 2 were top seeds. I love both squads. Both offensive juggernauts so after careful thought there were 3 main points, mostly defensive, that decided this matchup for me:

#1.) Womp has 2 poor defenders and Montreal can take advantage of both matchups. Prime Rose would have a field day offensively with Nash and prime Gasol same thing at PF.

#2.) Montreal has good to great defense at every position and high bball IQ.

#3.) The tiebreaker arguments should go to Montreal. In a close series, the best player and homecourt advantage can swing a matchup.

We had to create a new thread since last poll wasnt public and coulda caused issues so all have to revote

Catfish1314
06-04-2016, 07:33 PM
Montreal has the better player assuredly at three positions and probably a fourth. Defensively, Montreal has an edge (neither team is spectacular there) and they match up well.

A Nash-Amar'e/D-Rob pick and roll would be hell to defend consistently though. Kareem and Pau would really have to be on their toes.

xbrackattackx
06-04-2016, 09:30 PM
I like this matchup for my team. Peak Kenyon could help keep Pau at least in check. And I could Run sets with Klay at PG and PG at SG with Glen Rob at SF. So my defensive coverage could at least be better. Klay can keep up with Rose and a 7 ft athletic freak in George could give Richman at least a challenge. Also Klay would have the advantage on the O end against Rose, could just shoot wide open 3's over him. Womp rats could upset, and Robinson has never had a team like this around him. He wouldn't be over thinking cause he could relax and know, all he's gotta do is play. Also I think I out score his D. My Offense is about as potent as it comes. And with a faster pace I think I could disrupt his O. Congrats on making it this far raps! And good luck!

Raps08-09 Champ
06-05-2016, 01:22 AM
Congrats to Brack for winning his matchup first of all.

Having said that, here are some points as to why we think will win.

1. Defensive weakspots

While they have a DPOY in DRob and solid wing defenders in PG/Klay, they also have Nash and Amar'e. There's no doubt Amar'e and Nash are 2 of the best offensive players at their respective position but they are probably 2 of the worst defensively of all time at their positions as well.

We're going to try and expose their defensive weakspots by playing a faster paced offense during parts of the game along with our post based offense. My players are capable of playing both styles of offense at an elite level so we are not worried with any drop in offensive efficiency. By playing at a faster paced offense during parts of the game, our offensive tempo will put constant stress on their 3 defensive players as well as limits DRob's reaction time to cover for Nash/Amar'e.

Rose would be able to beat Nash any time he wants. Gasol would be able to outplay Amar'e in the post. At this point, it heavily plays into our favour as Rose-Pau-Kareem are not only elite scores but elite passers. With Rose being an elite mid range shooter and Pau/Kareem being elite scorers in the low/high post, it will make it difficult for DRob to cover Rose as he can pull up for the open midrange 3 or pass it off to an open Kareem/Pau if DRob is trying to contest a slashing Rose. Gasol would also be able to pass it off to an open Kareem or a cutting Rose if DRob were to help on the other side of the basket.

They say they want to play Kenyon Martin at PF/C for defensive purposes to guard Pau and while he's a solid defender, the effect on their offense would take a greater hit than it would help their defense as he'd either be taking away his Nash/Amar'e tandem. We can also counter that by playing Baylor at PF, which will expose Amar'e on defense even more.

2. Offensive questions.

While there's no doubt they have some great scorers, there are a few things I'd like to point out.

First of all, they just said they'd run Klay-PG-Glen at the PG/SG/SF to make up for lack of defense. I don't know how many MPG they plan to do this in a game but by doing that, they just took away the 1 guy in Nash that defined their offense. Klay/PG have no history of being able to run the offense. Klay often plays off the ball and when he does have the ball, his M.O. is to shoot the ball. George handles the ball more than Klay but he's looking to score the ball himself more than pass the ball. This plays into our favour because the ball ***** from Nash-Amar'e-DRob to Klay/PG, which definitely isn't going to cut it in a game like this. It also slows the game down for them if Nash isn't there to create. The slight increase in defense doesn't make up for the large drop in offense.

I also want to question their offensive versatility. They're probably playing an uptempo game that's heavily based on the P&R and kicking it with passing it to shooters. While the P&R can be effective at times, I question as to how much they can rely on it and what will they turn to when it isn't as effective, especially when we try to slow the game down (the game would slow down already when Nash is out of the game). We have solid defense at each starting position as well as 2 elite defenders off the bench in Butler and Dave D to help slow the game down.

Their offense can't rely on their wings as neither are guys that just take over a game any time they want. Butler and Mitch are solid defenders on their own right and can play good defense on their wings. In the case either get a hot hand, we have their kryptonite in Jimmy Butler. As you can see in their H2H, Butler drastically affect Klay Thomspon (LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=butleji01&p2=thompkl01))AND Paul George (LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=butleji01&p2=georgpa01)). Both end up shooting terrible from 3 when they were against Butler's Bulls, which is how they plan to use their wings. Since Butler can't guard both at the same time, he'll be guarding Klay more as he's the better 3 point shooter (who he held to 31% from 3), but Butler's ability to defend both players well is important for us as we have someone to can stop their wings and limit the damage if either get the hot hand.

We're also not sure how much they can rely on their big man when the game slows down/Nash is out of the game. DRob shot under 50% from the field during the playoffs for his career and has shot under 45% multiple years in the playoffs, which is very underwhelming for a player of his calibre. His history of underperforming in the playoffs isn't exactly a secret either. I don't know how much they can rely on him offensively inside especially when he's being guarded by an x11 All-NBA defensive team. Factor in how much effort he'll have to put defensively to make up for Amar'e/Nash and he should be even less efficient offensively.

Amar'e has also built his offensive success based on the P&R and he's not someone who can take over a game on offense as he's a guy who usually gets the offense set up for him. We also have Dave D who can play very physical defense on him and will surely play very pesky/chest to chest defense on him.

Rose isn't a shut down defender but he's athletic enough constantly stay in front of his man and he's shown that he can defend the P&R very well by limiting P&R BH to 0.73 PPP (chart below), which is valuable in trying to limit Nash. Back in 2011 (Rose's prime), Rose was one of the best defenders at PG in the league. As you can see in the below chart, he was comparable to guys considered elite PG defenders in Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo.



Player-------------------- Overall-------------Isolation-------------P&R Ball Handler-------------Spot Up
Derrick Rose--------------0.77-------------0.67-------------------0.73------------------------0.92
Deron Williams-----------0.91-------------0.87---------------------------0.89------------------------1.13
Rajon Rondo--------------0.80-------------0.68------------------------0.81 ------------------------0.86
Chris Paul-----------------0.88-------------0.76------------------------0.77------------------------0.98
Jason Kidd---------------0.85-------------0.76--------------------------0.78------------------------0.96

We also want to point out that our rebounding is superior to theirs, which will no doubt limit their 2nd chance opportunities as well, reducing any put backs or wide open 3s.

3. Summary

Overall, our team has the ability to match their offensive firepower, having elite scorers throughout the lineup. We will use our passing skills to take advantage of their defensive weakspots to find efficient baskets.

While they have elite scoring, we have players that can match up to them very well on defense. Rose, who was at one point arguably the best P&R handler defender in the league during his prime, to reduce Nash's ability to score. Butler can shut down Klay's ability to shoot the 3 and can be on PG if needed while Mitch and Baylor are athletic defenders to help on the weaker/colder guy. Dave D would be able to reduce Amar'e ability to find open lanes to the basket (and play well with Rose in the P&R defense). And Kareem is a top defensive center who'll be guarding an underwhelming DRob in the playoffs.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 02:50 PM
I have to think about this one, but I'm actually leaning towards Womp. I've probably watched prime Derrick the most out of anyone here, and he will struggle mightily having to guard a Nash pick and roll. Roses bread and butter is P&R, Paus and KAJs is not. This roster has the most talent but it has players that would struggle to compliment each other.

Like i said I need to debate this internally but I'm leaning towards the 3 seed

The_Jamal
06-05-2016, 04:35 PM
Womp Rats. Said this since they built this roster, that only a dominant defensive team would be be able to slow them down, which Mont is not. I don't see how Mont slows the Nash-Drob Nash-Amare PnR whatsoever.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 10:14 PM
just got to my desktop and had to vote for Womp rats

NYKalltheway
06-06-2016, 07:34 AM
6-7 game series, avg points each around 125 assuming the bench of Montreal sees restricted time.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:49 AM
Montreal has the better player assuredly at three positions and probably a fourth. Defensively, Montreal has an edge (neither team is spectacular there) and they match up well.

A Nash-Amar'e/D-Rob pick and roll would be hell to defend consistently though. Kareem and Pau would really have to be on their toes.

But isn't it safe to say that STAT and D-Rob would really need to be on their toes on the other end?

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:49 AM
6-7 game series, avg points each around 125 assuming the bench of Montreal sees restricted time.

But at least Montreal has competent defenders 1-5. Womp is just giving points away at the 1 and 4 spots.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2016, 02:02 PM
But at least Montreal has competent defenders 1-5. Womp is just giving points away at the 1 and 4 spots.

The amount of energy that DRob will need to cover for amare/nash will no doubt affect his abilities on the offensove end as well

Catfish1314
06-06-2016, 03:17 PM
But isn't it safe to say that STAT and D-Rob would really need to be on their toes on the other end?

No doubt. I was specifically referencing pick and roll defense though so quite literally "on their toes." Montreal's size is definitely a strength but a soundly structured, explosive offensive team (we can say what we will on the Womp Rats but they are certainly that) would demand a lot of lateral movement from two pretty big guys. I favor bigger, stronger frontcourts over smaller, more athletic ones but that doesn't mean the more athletic bigs can't get a few good swings in on their way out.

I did vote for Montreal because I think they'd win the series. They have the edge on the glass, the best player, and they defend better. Just giving due credit to the Womp Rats.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:24 PM
I hope someone else votes so I'm not the one who decided this series :laugh2:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2016, 07:24 PM
I hope someone else votes so I'm not the one who decided this series :laugh2:

:down:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2016, 09:22 PM
No doubt. I was specifically referencing pick and roll defense though so quite literally "on their toes." Montreal's size is definitely a strength but a soundly structured, explosive offensive team (we can say what we will on the Womp Rats but they are certainly that) would demand a lot of lateral movement from two pretty big guys. I favor bigger, stronger frontcourts over smaller, more athletic ones but that doesn't mean the more athletic bigs can't get a few good swings in on their way out.

I did vote for Montreal because I think they'd win the series. They have the edge on the glass, the best player, and they defend better. Just giving due credit to the Womp Rats.

Well they just said they'd play Klay at PG and take out Amar'e for Kenyon so they seem to have more interest matcuing up defensively than trying to build on their offense.

eDush
06-07-2016, 12:40 AM
But at least Montreal has competent defenders 1-5. Womp is just giving points away at the 1 and 4 spots.

The amount of energy that DRob will need to cover for amare/nash will no doubt affect his abilities on the offensove end as well
Admiral is a tough defender and quite agile for a big guy but he won't be able to defend against the big fella skyhooks. Pau and Kareem rim protection and blocks will limit Womp ability down low on Stat, Kenyon with Big D interior defense. This means Womp will rely on scoring outside and Klay will be raining 3s even with Mitch or Rose guarding along with Nash and PG. Baylor would be tough to stop on offense with his hanging jumpers from from all over the court and has a knack for grabbing rebounds. I like the Mitch and Klay match up as I admire both players game. Mitch will be difficult to contain but Klay will definitely make him work for his shots. Rose task to get the ball to all the talent around him as we have seen he is capable during his MVP season. Edge to Montreal defense to win this fab match up that I would love to see in 5 or 6.

:dance:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2016, 01:34 PM
Congrats to Brack. Wihs we coulda had more debate though

Redrum187
06-07-2016, 01:45 PM
I just noticed my vote didn't go through... =/

Were there any votes not on poll? What was the outcome?

eDush
06-07-2016, 02:03 PM
I'm not sure if many had known that if Klay is on one of his hot shooting spree like in game 6 against OKC, putting Big D on him would have ended that as he can cover guys like a blanket 2 thru 4.

Congrats to the winner of round 2 :clap:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2016, 06:09 PM
I just noticed my vote didn't go through... =/

Were there any votes not on poll? What was the outcome?

We closed the original thread since the poll wasnt public and we posted a new thread so some votes may have ben lost.

Shammyguy3
06-07-2016, 06:10 PM
i think this was a crazy good win for Womp Rats, not sure they can continue that though. I think Raps' team was one of the best talent wise but they ran into a team with a greater identity. I'd have to look and see which other teams I could realistically see beating Raps' team, i bet not many would garner my vote

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2016, 06:25 PM
i think this was a crazy good win for Womp Rats, not sure they can continue that though. I think Raps' team was one of the best talent wise but they ran into a team with a greater identity. I'd have to look and see which other teams I could realistically see beating Raps' team, i bet not many would garner my vote

Me and you exhibition match lets gooooooooooooo