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RocketLoc80
06-04-2016, 09:06 AM
Due to the breakout of LeBron James threads that are dominating our NBA forum we've decided to keep it in one thread. From here on out until further notice please use this thread for the LeBron issues you would like to discuss. Unless it's major news like an official LeBron trade or something to that level we'd like the forum to not be cluttered with these love and hate LeBron threads. Please use your best judgement before you create the next LeBron thread. Thank you


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Does LeBron Drop on the All time List If He Loses?

Explain?

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 09:16 AM
Nope. I don't believe players can drop unless someone does something to pass them.

FOXHOUND
06-04-2016, 09:41 AM
No, unless he had some horrifically bad Finals or something like that.

Chronz
06-04-2016, 10:55 AM
It's impossible to unprove wats already been recorded in history

Tony_Starks
06-04-2016, 11:14 AM
He's a back to back champ, multiple MVP and all NBA 1st team.

Another L doesn't undo those accomplishments.

Still one of the best to ever do it and top 5 best all around player ever.

R. Johnson#3
06-04-2016, 11:21 AM
Yes. He will drop all the way to above Kobe :)

IndyRealist
06-04-2016, 12:11 PM
All time lists are cumulative achievements. You don't drop on them unless someone passes you, or your achievement gets taken away.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-04-2016, 12:37 PM
Its as if losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all.

DboneG
06-04-2016, 12:58 PM
Yes. He's showing he can't win the big one. LeBron is showing he can get you there, but, it's a whole another story to win. He's showing he don't make a lot of big plays while in the Finals. If LeBron made big play after big play...I'm ok with the results. But, he's going to his weak hand and throwing up a left. He's passing/deferring when he should be taking over the game. He's looking to the ref for a calls, when he should go a bit stronger and make the ref make a call. It's all about winning it all.

Stinkyoutsider
06-04-2016, 01:47 PM
I don't think so because I believe that Lebron is doing all he can individually without becoming a ball stopper. He's still looking to get his teammates involved.

I still consider him in the mold of Magic Johnson instead of Jordan, which really isn't bad considering that Magic is one of the best players of his era (and NBA history). So, I don't expect Lebron to have a 50 point game in this Finals.

42-15-7
06-04-2016, 01:50 PM
Its as if losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all.

This is one of my cornerstone arguments about why Magic is a hair better than MJ as GOAT. People implicitly give MJ credit for NOT making the finals in any of the years when he didn't win a title. Not only did Magic play much tougher teams in order to win his rings, but maybe his greatest success was dragging the Lakers to the finals to actually face MJ's Bulls, when that was supposed to be the Blazers' year. (If you're old enough you'll remember that Drexler's team was loaded AND seasoned, while Magic was driving a completely different roster from the Showtime era.)

It matters how many rings you win, but it also matters how many times you get there, which is why nobody will ever touch Russell. Not taking anything away from MJ, but just looking at the finals doesn't tell the whole story.

JasonJohnHorn
06-04-2016, 02:23 PM
Nobody in their right mind is expecting the Cavs to win this series. If he loses and plays well, he'll maintain his current legacy. If he wins, he'll improve it.

He could retire tomorrow and he'd be remembered as the greatest SF of all time.

Mr.B
06-04-2016, 02:39 PM
Obviously Labron is one of the all time great players. The fact that he's been the best player on 7 Finals teams proves that. Going 2-5 in Finals appearances I think only hurts Labron when it comes to being considered the best of all time.

Right now Jordan was still better in my opinion. The argument for me right now is, is Labron better than a prime Kobe? I think right now an argument could be made either way. With another Finals loss though there is no doubt I would take a prime Kobe over Labron.

numba1CHANGsta
06-04-2016, 02:58 PM
Well all you LeBron nut huggers have him ranked so high on the all-time list so yes he will drop, but he won't drop for me cuz I never had him ranked that high. LeBron seems to ace those quiz's but once those exams come he ends up choking.

RocketLoc80
06-04-2016, 07:11 PM
Because he lost to a better team you gonna drop him below Kobe?Prime Kobe barely made an impact

DboneG
06-04-2016, 07:19 PM
Nobody in their right mind is expecting the Cavs to win this series. If he loses and plays well, he'll maintain his current legacy. If he wins, he'll improve it.

He could retire tomorrow and he'd be remembered as the greatest SF of all time.


I'M EXPECTING THE CAVS TO WIN THIS SERIES. They have a young and dumb-azz coach. I'll be expecting LeBron to go at it on his own...not listen to the coach. Who's idea was it to play slow and methodical. Wasn't the Cavs the team with all the rest?! They should have went at GS like RWS...100mph.

L8kers4life
06-04-2016, 07:33 PM
Nobody in their right mind is expecting the Cavs to win this series. If he loses and plays well, he'll maintain his current legacy. If he wins, he'll improve it.

He could retire tomorrow and he'd be remembered as the greatest SF of all time.

He is Definitely the greatest small forward all time and top 5 all time regardless of the results, but after watching the Warriors struggle against the Thunder and how good the Cavs were playing, plenty of critics and people here on PSD felt the Cavs could win prior to game 1.

Let's not pretend like he doesn't have plenty of talent to get the job done, he needs to beat this team to be considered top 3 all time, at some point he has to start beating the more talented team, he's the greatest player on the planet, that's what you do. And if the supposed MVP is gonna score 11 points or whatever it is Curry scored that game, LeBron needed to enforce his will, instead that 4th quarter he looked like a role player that won't cut it.

42-15-7
06-04-2016, 07:35 PM
Is there some PSD list or general agreement where LeBron ranks all-time?

ESPN had LeBron at #3 apparently because they needed the page hits.

SI had him at #5 which seems more objective.

I think Bill Simmons' most recent ranking had LeBron at #6 but I can't confirm that.

Because he's still playing I know LeBron gets a bump, but ranking him ahead of MJ, Kareem or Magic is a joke, and I think I'd probably put Wilt and maybe even Russell ahead of him as well.

So to answer the thread question...if LeBron flames out this year, and particularly if he never wins another ring, yeah, he's going to sink after he retires. Maybe still top-ten, but more for his stats than rings or leadership.

(It drives me crazy that people call LeBron unselfish, as if that means something. I don't care how you win, but you better damn win, and the man keeps coming up short.)

numba1CHANGsta
06-04-2016, 09:31 PM
Because he lost to a better team you gonna drop him below Kobe?Prime Kobe barely made an impact

Kobe barely made an impact? LMFAO Prime Kobe didn't leave his team and team up with two other superstars who were in their prime. And Kobe played in the tough Western Conference his entire career. Plus Kobe had a better Finals record than LeBron. LeBron lacks the killer instinct that MJ and Kobe had. LeBron may be great statistical and achievements wise (cuz he played his entire career in a sucky Eastern conference which made him look superior than others and had at least 2 superstars in their prime for most of his career) but he'll always be considered a loser/choker.

RocketLoc80
06-04-2016, 10:45 PM
Like your word is bond? Like iam gonna take some Kobe **** with an Kobe avi seriously you a joke man stop posting.

Supreme LA
06-05-2016, 12:32 AM
I've always had Lebron at 6 in all-time rankings and another loss won't change my opinion.

LA_Raiders
06-05-2016, 12:36 AM
Yes, it shows that he can't win the big game; and this game is about championships. Hell of a player, but he flops, travels, and chokes when matters.

Chronz
06-05-2016, 03:11 AM
Mj
Wilt
Kaj
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Bron
Bird
Russell
Moses

Who am i missing

Curry?maybe above Moses

lol, please
06-05-2016, 03:27 AM
Double standards are ridiculous around here. Curry would catch heat if the Warriors lost the finals.

Lebron gets a pass for everything.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

L8kers4life
06-05-2016, 03:37 AM
Mj
Wilt
Kaj
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Bron
Bird
Russell
Moses

Who am i missing

Curry?maybe above Moses

I think Shaq and Tim Duncan probably should be on there. But That list is on point

RocketLoc80
06-05-2016, 05:12 AM
Why Kobe over Bronze?

FraziersKnicks
06-05-2016, 10:36 AM
I'm pretty sure Chronz was probably drunk when he posted that list. No other excuse for missing out Timmy and Shaq.

FraziersKnicks
06-05-2016, 10:42 AM
In response to the OP's question... No, what LeBron has accomplished cannot be undone so there's no way he drops unless someone overtakes him.

The Lakers (Kobe) fans that hold his finals record against him clearly think it's better to lose before to an inferior team than make it all the way to the Finals and lose to a better team.

Can you imagine if Jordan had led the Bulls to the finals when he returned from his first retirement and lost to Hakeem? Would that actually have more of a negative impact than getting ousted by Shaq and the Magic? Because he would no longer have that beautiful, gleaming 6-0 record. But would clearly have played better by getting the Bulls there.

Would that 6-1 finals record look worse than 6-0?

nastynice
06-05-2016, 10:44 AM
Its as if losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all.

lol, right?

RLundi
06-05-2016, 10:53 AM
I'm torn. I think he should move down, but I have a problem with moving someone ahead of him who's already retired or done nothing to warrant moving up except on a sheer technicality. But failing so many times in the Finals needs to carry some sort of penalty.

Maybe it doesn't move him down any slots as much as it reveals we've placed him too high prematurely. In fact, it might just lend credence to the idea that as much as we want to discuss a player's legacy while he's still playing, it's probably best to wait until a player retires to evaluate his entire body of work.

kingkenny01
06-05-2016, 11:08 AM
Only finals loss that should be viewed negatively against him is when the mavs won, he legimatialy choked every other finals he was one of the best players in the series if not the best. He has been an underdog in 5/7 I mean what would you expect. People who view finals record as a knock on a player are stupid, its a team game and that's team achievement.

Jayb587
06-05-2016, 11:13 AM
In response to the OP's question... No, what LeBron has accomplished cannot be undone so there's no way he drops unless someone overtakes him.

The Lakers (Kobe) fans that hold his finals record against him clearly think it's better to lose before to an inferior team than make it all the way to the Finals and lose to a better team.

Can you imagine if Jordan had led the Bulls to the finals when he returned from his first retirement and lost to Hakeem? Would that actually have more of a negative impact than getting ousted by Shaq and the Magic? Because he would no longer have that beautiful, gleaming 6-0 record. But would clearly have played better by getting the Bulls there.

Would that 6-1 finals record look worse than 6-0?

Yea the 6-1 is worse. That 6-0 with 6 fmvp is what makes him untouchable as the greatest player ever. 6-1 makes him mortal.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 12:20 PM
Yea the 6-1 is worse. That 6-0 with 6 fmvp is what makes him untouchable as the greatest player ever. 6-1 makes him mortal.

That's stupid reasoning. That's like Olympic medalists not being as accomplished if they have silver medals and bronze compared to someone that has only gold but hasn't gotten a medal as often

t_money25
06-05-2016, 12:20 PM
Yea the 6-1 is worse. That 6-0 with 6 fmvp is what makes him untouchable as the greatest player ever. 6-1 makes him mortal.

This absolutely makes no sense. Six finals appearances is more impressive than 7? Yea right.

So I guess 4-0 is better than 6-1 too right? SMH

lol, please
06-05-2016, 01:06 PM
This absolutely makes no sense. Six finals appearances is more impressive than 7? Yea right.

So I guess 4-0 is better than 6-1 too right? SMH
4-0 is better than 6-1. Why do people need to be reminded that winning is the goal?

Is it better to take 6 courses in college and get straight c's, or take two and get A's?

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

FraziersKnicks
06-05-2016, 01:14 PM
Yea the 6-1 is worse. That 6-0 with 6 fmvp is what makes him untouchable as the greatest player ever. 6-1 makes him mortal.

So if that's the case, LeBron's legacy would be BETTER if he hadn't led that poor Cavs team past that strong Pistons team in 07?

So if that legendary game 5 performance never happened (25 straight points to finish the game, 48 points total) and the Cavs had been knocked out before getting swept by a FAR superior Spurs team, his legacy would actually be improved because he would have one less finals loss (albeit one that EVERYONE predicted in one of the most lopsided finals in recent memory)?

I just will never understand this backwards way of thinking. If Kobe had led a Shaq-less Lakers to the finals, carrying Smush and Kwame, but lost to Miami, that would actually have a negative impact on his legacy because he would be 5-3 instead of 5-2? A lower finals winning percentage but more trips?

FraziersKnicks
06-05-2016, 01:20 PM
4-0 is better than 6-1. Why do people need to be reminded that winning is the goal?

Is it better to take 6 courses in college and get straight c's, or take two and get A's?

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

So winning 4 times is better than winning 6... But winning is the goal.

t_money25
06-05-2016, 02:03 PM
So winning 4 times is better than winning 6... But winning is the goal.

My point exactly

t_money25
06-05-2016, 02:17 PM
4-0 is better than 6-1. Why do people need to be reminded that winning is the goal?

Is it better to take 6 courses in college and get straight c's, or take two and get A's?

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

Stupidest shyt I read on here in a while. Isn't 6 wins greater than 4? You say winning is the goal right? Losing in the early rounds or not even making the playoffs at all is better than losing in the finals right? SMH

And your example using college courses isn't good

mngopher35
06-05-2016, 02:47 PM
Stupidest shyt I read on here in a while. Isn't 6 wins greater than 4? You say winning is the goal right? Losing in the early rounds or not even making the playoffs at all is better than losing in the finals right? SMH

And your example using college courses isn't good

I can't believe the lack of common sense in here lol.

For the topic at hand I will add that a player gets ranked based off what he has accomplished. Anything that happens further is not going to negate what they did previously, it just might not add much to the legacy. Now consider he has actually had a very good season so far too haha. So no, he would not drop down on the list.

Sly Guy
06-05-2016, 04:08 PM
It's impossible to unprove wats already been recorded in history

the most sensible thing said in this thread.

t_money25
06-05-2016, 04:31 PM
I can't believe the lack of common sense in here lol.

For the topic at hand I will add that a player gets ranked based off what he has accomplished. Anything that happens further is not going to negate what they did previously, it just might not add much to the legacy. Now consider he has actually had a very good season so far too haha. So no, he would not drop down on the list.

They don't necessarily lack common sense they just hate Lebron so much that they'll say anything to diminish his star regardless is it makes sense or not.

Supreme LA
06-05-2016, 05:07 PM
Mj
Wilt
Kaj
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
Bron
Bird
Russell
Moses

Who am i missing

Curry?maybe above Moses

Shaq? Put Shaq above Hakeem and place Timmy above Moses and that would be a great list.

Supreme LA
06-05-2016, 05:13 PM
This debate proves why we should always wait till a player's career is over before placing him on an all-time list.

Many people I believe placed Lebron much too high so in other's eyes he deserves to be knocked down which i can understand.

I myself have never had him as high so he doesn't move down for me.

Jamiecballer
06-05-2016, 05:13 PM
4-0 is better than 6-1. Why do people need to be reminded that winning is the goal?

Is it better to take 6 courses in college and get straight c's, or take two and get A's?

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk
How old are you?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

lol, please
06-05-2016, 05:35 PM
How old are you?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
I'm in my 30s. Now relate that to the conversation or get reported for baiting, considering age is irrelevant here to my knowledge.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

One Nut Kruk
06-05-2016, 07:31 PM
I think the relationship to age is that only a 10 year old would think a 4-0 Finals record is better than 6-1.

hugepatsfan
06-05-2016, 07:42 PM
4-0 is better than 6-1. Why do people need to be reminded that winning is the goal?

Is it better to take 6 courses in college and get straight c's, or take two and get A's?

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

This analogy makes no sense because even in the years you don't make the finals you still played. You "took the course". 4-0 is a better finals winning percentage than 6-1 but 7 seasons is still 7 seasons.

Winning the finals 6 times and losing in it once is better than winning it 4 times and not making it 3 times. That's not even debatable.

hugepatsfan
06-05-2016, 07:44 PM
Yea the 6-1 is worse. That 6-0 with 6 fmvp is what makes him untouchable as the greatest player ever. 6-1 makes him mortal.

So losing in the finals makes you "mortal" but losing before you get there still keeps immortality in tact?

One Nut Kruk
06-05-2016, 07:51 PM
not sure what some of these guys are smokin....but I'd like a hit.

Jamiecballer
06-05-2016, 09:00 PM
I think the relationship to age is that only a 10 year old would think a 4-0 Finals record is better than 6-1.
Winner!

Although I could go as high as 13 years old on that

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Supreme LA
06-05-2016, 10:26 PM
Can we all just agree that Lebron was placed too high by many of you to begin with?

Bostonjorge
06-05-2016, 10:36 PM
So if you play bad and lose it don't effect your position right? How many top 5 players would get benched twice in the 4th during the finals? What about top 10? James is about to break his own record for biggest point differential loses in finals history. He will be number 1 and 2 on that finals list for worse losers of all time.

Jayb587
06-05-2016, 10:45 PM
This absolutely makes no sense. Six finals appearances is more impressive than 7? Yea right.

So I guess 4-0 is better than 6-1 too right? SMH

I understand it's hard for u take comprehend because u want the argument to favor lebron and his losing finals record. Buy yea being undefeated is better. Being undefeated in the finals immortalized Jordan. Being undefeated on the biggest stage made him the GOAT.

Jayb587
06-05-2016, 10:48 PM
So losing in the finals makes you "mortal" but losing before you get there still keeps immortality in tact?

No one cares if you didn't make the finals. Give it up. It's irrelevant and just another stretch to try and justify lebrons losing ways.

zn23
06-05-2016, 10:53 PM
His team is an underdog going up against the 73 win team. A win would certainly boost his legacy. A loss wouldn't hurt it. T

dpospish
06-05-2016, 11:16 PM
No one cares if you didn't make the finals. Give it up. It's irrelevant and just another stretch to try and justify lebrons losing ways.

Holy ****! This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read. Losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals? **** you're just dumb.

brandt
06-05-2016, 11:22 PM
He won't drop on the list but he'll probably be one of the best players that's lost 5 championships. As good of a player as he is, for him to only be 2 and 5 as a world champion hypothetically, means he's not as good as everyone including me thinks he is. A superstar takes control in my book, and he's hasn't proven that he can do that.

One Nut Kruk
06-05-2016, 11:25 PM
Winner!

Although I could go as high as 13 years old on that

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

I was originally gonna say 12. But I thought even a 12 year old wouldn't be that out to lunch.

Bostonjorge
06-05-2016, 11:26 PM
Holy ****! This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read. Losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals? **** you're just dumb.

That's what you read from his post? You must think being on the all time worst finals loss rankings is better then not being on it right?

ClassyAshyLarry
06-05-2016, 11:40 PM
I'm in my 30s. Now relate that to the conversation or get reported for baiting, considering age is irrelevant here to my knowledge.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

Forreal bro? Lol. Kids today are so soft.

:dance: :dance: :dance:

t_money25
06-05-2016, 11:50 PM
I understand it's hard for u take comprehend because u want the argument to favor lebron and his losing finals record. But yea being undefeated is better. Being undefeated in the finals immortalized Jordan. Being undefeated on the biggest stage made him the GOAT.

So I guess 2-0 is better than 6-1 too right? I could care less if Lebron wins or loses. I'm not a Cavs fan.

whitemamba33
06-05-2016, 11:53 PM
When he originally bolted Cleveland for Miami, I criticized him because I felt as though he was abandoning a challenge. He promised he'd bring a title home to Cleveland, then teamed up with a couple of superstars in Miami and took a much easier road to two championships. My respect for him and his competitive edge plummeted. So I can't fault him for going back and trying to make good on his mission of winning in Cleveland, even if he falls short (with a much better cast than before).

But watching him - I just don't feel like his heart is in it. I don't get the impression that he's leaving it all on the floor. I remember watching him battle the prime Detroit teams and the Spurs earlier in his career, and that man would have traded his soul to win. Not a bad stat line tonight, but in my opinion he didn't assert himself enough.

The man's legacy is set. Can't take anything away from him that he's already earned. I just didn't think it was time yet to start reflecting on the player that he used to be. But maybe it is. Even listening to his recent interview, where he talked about being "low on the Cleveland totem pole". Hard to imagine Kobe or MJ saying such a thing, especially at this point in the season. They were sharks. I thought his comments were very revealing about his current mindset.

More-Than-Most
06-06-2016, 12:08 AM
Holy ****! This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read. Losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals? **** you're just dumb.

that is why i say its pointless to argue with them.... its insanely dumb.

L8kers4life
06-06-2016, 12:51 AM
So losing in the finals makes you "mortal" but losing before you get there still keeps immortality in tact?

I think the point is MJ has been to 6 finals and Is 6-0

LeBron has been to 7 finals and will be 2-5 after this year.

So yeah he has been to the finals more times than Jordan, but that Jordan is undefeated and has more rings in less trips to the finals is why he won't touch Jordan.

L8kers4life
06-06-2016, 12:56 AM
that is why i say its pointless to argue with them.... its insanely dumb.

None of these arguments told much weight, for the simple fact, if it was a seeded format LeBron might be 2-0 in the finals but he sure as heck wouldn't have reached 7 finals, the West has been a gauntlet. If it wasn't for a lucky Ray Allen shot LeBron would only have 1 ring. All this for a person that has personally picked all the talent he plays with. He was suppose to win not 1 not 2 not 3 rings, you know the story. The East is a joke, please recognize. LeBron is a all timer, but his conference is a joke.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 01:00 AM
Here's the issue I've found in this. For starters, even in the most Warriors skewed view, I didn't expect for them to give Cleveland the worst beat down through games 1 and 2 of all time with the next closest happening all the way back in 1961 by Boston. You know, when Bill Russell and his Celtics were so stacked that we shouldn't even take his ring count serious, right?

At what point is it fair to put this on LeBron? How is it possible that he's this great leader who elevates the teams to some insane levels any time his teams are good, but when stuff like this happens it's everyone else but him? The 2014 Finals had the Heat get the biggest beat down by average margin since 1972, when Kareem and Oscar pounded a sorry sack of a team. That year it was all about Wade being old and Bosh being a dinosaur, etc.

OK, but we live in a world where Jason Kidd and the 52-win Nets played the Shaq and Kobe Lakers at their peak.

Jason Kidd
Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Todd MacCulloch

Kidd and Martin were excellent two-way players. Everyone else? Van Horn, the only other player to play 30 MPG, put up 10.5 PPG on 39% with 5.8 REB. Kittles put up 12.5P-2.0R-2.5A. MacCulloch played 18 MPG and did nothing but get demolished by Shaq. Their only two bench guys to play 20 MPG were Lucious Harris, who averaged 8 PPG on 23 MPG on a .344/.200/.800 line, and a 21-year old Richard Jefferson, who shot well from the field but ultimately produced just 7 PPG and 4.5 REB in 24 MPG while hitting 45% of his FTs.

This team, not surprisingly, was swept. However, they lost by 5, 23, 3 and 6 points. Three close games, one blowout and a total differential of -37. How does this LeBron led team lose by 48 points in just two games? How does none of this have anything to do with LeBron's leadership and godly team impact?

Sorry, I just don't buy that weak excuse. It can't ALWAYS be on everyone else to such a ridiculous extent.

More-Than-Most
06-06-2016, 01:05 AM
I think the point is MJ has been to 6 finals and Is 6-0

LeBron has been to 7 finals and will be 2-5 after this year.

So yeah he has been to the finals more times than Jordan, but that Jordan is undefeated and has more rings in less trips to the finals is why he won't touch Jordan.

he doesnt touch jordan because he choked in the mavs series but he also didnt have the luxury of the insane teams Jordan had or running into teams with players on the severe decline... I have no issues with people using rings as part of an argument but saying this kind is better than this guy because he has this many championships with 0 context like most do is utterly moronic.

West flat out bent all the haters over in defense of James

"That's the most ridiculous thing. If I were him, I'd probably want to strangle [detractors]," West said. "He's carried teams on his shoulders. He's been to the Finals six straight times. How many times has he been the favorite? None. Zero. Grossly unfair to him.

"I don't want to sound like Donald Trump, but it's hard for me to believe someone doesn't recognize his greatness. This guy does everything, and he's competitive as hell. Frankly, I wish people would leave him alone."

MarkieMark48
06-06-2016, 08:27 AM
only on PSD where people actually think losing before you get to the finals is better than losing in the finals.

Tony_Starks
06-06-2016, 09:25 AM
Can we all just agree that Lebron was placed too high by many of you to begin with?

That part.

He'll never go down on my list because I never prematurely placed him higher than he should be.

The worst he can do remain where he is ( currently 7).

If he wins more chips then he climbs higher.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 09:30 AM
Here's the issue I've found in this. For starters, even in the most Warriors skewed view, I didn't expect for them to give Cleveland the worst beat down through games 1 and 2 of all time with the next closest happening all the way back in 1961 by Boston. You know, when Bill Russell and his Celtics were so stacked that we shouldn't even take his ring count serious, right?

At what point is it fair to put this on LeBron? How is it possible that he's this great leader who elevates the teams to some insane levels any time his teams are good, but when stuff like this happens it's everyone else but him? The 2014 Finals had the Heat get the biggest beat down by average margin since 1972, when Kareem and Oscar pounded a sorry sack of a team. That year it was all about Wade being old and Bosh being a dinosaur, etc.

OK, but we live in a world where Jason Kidd and the 52-win Nets played the Shaq and Kobe Lakers at their peak.

Jason Kidd
Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Todd MacCulloch

Kidd and Martin were excellent two-way players. Everyone else? Van Horn, the only other player to play 30 MPG, put up 10.5 PPG on 39% with 5.8 REB. Kittles put up 12.5P-2.0R-2.5A. MacCulloch played 18 MPG and did nothing but get demolished by Shaq. Their only two bench guys to play 20 MPG were Lucious Harris, who averaged 8 PPG on 23 MPG on a .344/.200/.800 line, and a 21-year old Richard Jefferson, who shot well from the field but ultimately produced just 7 PPG and 4.5 REB in 24 MPG while hitting 45% of his FTs.

This team, not surprisingly, was swept. However, they lost by 5, 23, 3 and 6 points. Three close games, one blowout and a total differential of -37. How does this LeBron led team lose by 48 points in just two games? How does none of this have anything to do with LeBron's leadership and godly team impact?

Sorry, I just don't buy that weak excuse. It can't ALWAYS be on everyone else to such a ridiculous extent.

Good post. You are right, he shouldn't be getting destroyed like this. He doesn't look like he cares. In fact thia is how he looked in the playoffs before he left cle the first time. And i think he's leaving again after he gets swept. Lebron is not a great leader. Everyone wants to blame his team. Fact is over the years good players seem to take nosedives when playing with Lebron but he does elevate the scrubs. Good leader maybe. Wade is a great leader. He needs to go back there and find some direction again and try and go for more championships. Sadly though I think the decline is evident. Hes just not the same anymore. He looks old, slow, incapable of dominance like in the finals last year.

Supreme LA
06-06-2016, 12:26 PM
That part.

He'll never go down on my list because I never prematurely placed him higher than he should be.

The worst he can do remain where he is ( currently 7).

If he wins more chips then he climbs higher.

Exactly.

I think the real debate and childish remarks made in this thread are being made by two sets of extreme fans. One on hand we have those who ranked him way too high prematurely so its only natural you'll have those who feel he needs to be knocked down.

I've always reserved my judgement on the guy as to whether move him above the top 5 greats but I have him at 6 and he won't move down for me but I can also see him at 7 as well.

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 01:14 PM
Nope. I don't believe players can drop unless someone does something to pass them.

my exact answer.

Bostonjorge
06-06-2016, 02:46 PM
Here's the issue I've found in this. For starters, even in the most Warriors skewed view, I didn't expect for them to give Cleveland the worst beat down through games 1 and 2 of all time with the next closest happening all the way back in 1961 by Boston. You know, when Bill Russell and his Celtics were so stacked that we shouldn't even take his ring count serious, right?

At what point is it fair to put this on LeBron? How is it possible that he's this great leader who elevates the teams to some insane levels any time his teams are good, but when stuff like this happens it's everyone else but him? The 2014 Finals had the Heat get the biggest beat down by average margin since 1972, when Kareem and Oscar pounded a sorry sack of a team. That year it was all about Wade being old and Bosh being a dinosaur, etc.

OK, but we live in a world where Jason Kidd and the 52-win Nets played the Shaq and Kobe Lakers at their peak.

Jason Kidd
Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Todd MacCulloch

Kidd and Martin were excellent two-way players. Everyone else? Van Horn, the only other player to play 30 MPG, put up 10.5 PPG on 39% with 5.8 REB. Kittles put up 12.5P-2.0R-2.5A. MacCulloch played 18 MPG and did nothing but get demolished by Shaq. Their only two bench guys to play 20 MPG were Lucious Harris, who averaged 8 PPG on 23 MPG on a .344/.200/.800 line, and a 21-year old Richard Jefferson, who shot well from the field but ultimately produced just 7 PPG and 4.5 REB in 24 MPG while hitting 45% of his FTs.

This team, not surprisingly, was swept. However, they lost by 5, 23, 3 and 6 points. Three close games, one blowout and a total differential of -37. How does this LeBron led team lose by 48 points in just two games? How does none of this have anything to do with LeBron's leadership and godly team impact?

Sorry, I just don't buy that weak excuse. It can't ALWAYS be on everyone else to such a ridiculous extent.
That's basically his legacy. Every time you think he can't get more dominated in a worse fashion we get 2016 finals. When James name is brought up excuses will have to follow. It's basically woven into his legacy.

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 03:08 PM
No one cares if you didn't make the finals. Give it up. It's irrelevant and just another stretch to try and justify lebrons losing ways.

lmaooooo

I can't stand Lebron. Hate the guy more than any other athlete. Never wanted him to get a ring so now all I have left is hoping he has to live with the fact he never won for CLE. I don't make excuses for him. It's just dumb to act like losing in the finals is worse than losing before them. I'm not going to spew nonsense because I don't like someone.

L8kers4life
06-06-2016, 03:18 PM
he doesnt touch jordan because he choked in the mavs series but he also didnt have the luxury of the insane teams Jordan had or running into teams with players on the severe decline... I have no issues with people using rings as part of an argument but saying this kind is better than this guy because he has this many championships with 0 context like most do is utterly moronic.

West flat out bent all the haters over in defense of James

"That's the most ridiculous thing. If I were him, I'd probably want to strangle [detractors]," West said. "He's carried teams on his shoulders. He's been to the Finals six straight times. How many times has he been the favorite? None. Zero. Grossly unfair to him.

"I don't want to sound like Donald Trump, but it's hard for me to believe someone doesn't recognize his greatness. This guy does everything, and he's competitive as hell. Frankly, I wish people would leave him alone."

I don't give a crap what Jerry West said and I'm a Lakers fan, he was 1-8 in the finals and that is why he is not top 10 himself.

Secondly your argument that LeBron didn't have insane talent, what the hell is dwade, Ray Allen, Chris Bosh, Kyrie, k love, his team's have been more stacked than every team in the east, what MJ went through in his time was not players in decline, it was a conference that was stacked that had actual stars, Ewing, Mourning, isaiah, dumars, Rodman, Dominique, Larry, Parish, Mchale, shaq, penny, Mark price. The East had stars and was much tougher than now. Right now the east hast 2 stars realistically, LBJ and Wall and wade in severe decline. The East is a joke, and LeBron is starting his decline. It's not always someone else's fault.

PowerHouse
06-06-2016, 03:50 PM
Nope. I don't believe players can drop unless someone does something to pass them.


my exact answer.

That would make sense when comparing an active player to a retired one but an active player can certainly do something to drop themselves down a list. There's people on these threads who firmly believe Kobe dropped himself down a couple of notches on the all-time rankings because of how the last couple years of his career went.

Or injuries. In '07 people had T-mac in their top 10 lists and then by '09 he was nowhere to be found in anybody's list.

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 03:57 PM
That would make sense when comparing an active player to a retired one but an active player can certainly do something to drop themselves down a list. There's people on these threads who firmly believe Kobe dropped himself down a couple of notches on the all-time rankings because of how the last couple years of his career went.

Or injuries. In '07 people had T-mac in their top 10 lists and then by '09 he was nowhere to be found in anybody's list.

we are talking about career ranking, not a yearly ranking. To get to a certain ranking, you need to achieve a certain amount. Those achievements can't be taken away.

Let me ask you this, if he died right now, would he drop? If the answer is no, than anything he does after this is irrelevant. His ranking is already set. He can only achieve more at this point, unless they somehow invent a way to get negative points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, and wins, to deduct from his totals. If they somehow rescind all his MVP's, all NBA selections, etc, than sure, he can drop. Once you make it to a spot, the only thing that can knock you out of it, backwards, is another player jumping over you.

Lo Porto
06-06-2016, 04:06 PM
No. LeBron will go down as a top 5 player of all time for many reasons. Here are a few:

- He lived up to expectations. Almost no player in any sport lives up to expectations. "The Next Great One" is never realized. He was billed the next great one as a teenager and he has lived up to that. Former greats would have never been able to keep their heads high for the good and bad like LeBron has. It's arguable, but he's been bashed more than any star I've ever seen and I'm almost 40. Social media is another opponent nowadays. He's accomplished everything but many titles. But I'll get to that...
- He has done more with less. He's always compared to Mike. Well, MJ had 5 losing seasons in the NBA without Pippen and Phil. In other words, MJ wasn't MJ without help. LeBron taking the Cavs to the Finals before his stint in Miami could be the single most impressive thing he or MJ ever did.
- Stats. They don't lie. He is the best all around player in the history of the game outside of Wilt. What those two have done statistically over time is staggering. He will own so many records before he is done.
- Titles are important for a legacy, but it should not and will not be the only thing. If it was all about titles, Russell's 11 would win every conversation. However, people realize how dominant Wilt was so he sticks around the conversation. MJ will always be in the conversation because he won 6 but he dominated under Phil.
- He'll probably end up going to twice as many Finals as MJ. Think about that. LeBron will end up having as many Finals losses than MJ had losing seasons (5 or more to MJ's 5 losing seasons). At some point, LeBron's consistent success will get recognition with or without the rings.

Just look at Game 1 and Game 2. He played excellent ball Game 1 and they lost by a bit. He played "poorly" in Game 2 by his standards, and his team got annihilated. They were destroyed. If MJ played poorly during the 2nd 3peat, he had Pippen, Kukoc, Harper, Kerr and so many others to carry the slack. LeBron doesn't have the luxury. He has to at least be good or his team sucks. His defense and rebounding never go away, but his shooting, post dominance and passing have to be on or his team doesn't stand a chance. He's a QB.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 04:07 PM
lmaooooo

I can't stand Lebron. Hate the guy more than any other athlete. Never wanted him to get a ring so now all I have left is hoping he has to live with the fact he never won for CLE. I don't make excuses for him. It's just dumb to act like losing in the finals is worse than losing before them. I'm not going to spew nonsense because I don't like someone.

Hes an all time great . Finals play and success is what's seperates the top from the bottom. Call it nonsense if u want. Buts its just how it is.

MarkieMark48
06-06-2016, 04:17 PM
we are talking about career ranking, not a yearly ranking. To get to a certain ranking, you need to achieve a certain amount. Those achievements can't be taken away.

Let me ask you this, if he died right now, would he drop? If the answer is no, than anything he does after this is irrelevant. His ranking is already set. He can only achieve more at this point, unless they somehow invent a way to get negative points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, and wins, to deduct from his totals. If they somehow rescind all his MVP's, all NBA selections, etc, than sure, he can drop. Once you make it to a spot, the only thing that can knock you out of it, backwards, is another player jumping over you.

Crazy question out of the blue... where would you rank Phil Jackson as an NBA head coach?

valade16
06-06-2016, 04:25 PM
Here's the issue I've found in this. For starters, even in the most Warriors skewed view, I didn't expect for them to give Cleveland the worst beat down through games 1 and 2 of all time with the next closest happening all the way back in 1961 by Boston. You know, when Bill Russell and his Celtics were so stacked that we shouldn't even take his ring count serious, right?

At what point is it fair to put this on LeBron? How is it possible that he's this great leader who elevates the teams to some insane levels any time his teams are good, but when stuff like this happens it's everyone else but him? The 2014 Finals had the Heat get the biggest beat down by average margin since 1972, when Kareem and Oscar pounded a sorry sack of a team. That year it was all about Wade being old and Bosh being a dinosaur, etc.

OK, but we live in a world where Jason Kidd and the 52-win Nets played the Shaq and Kobe Lakers at their peak.

Jason Kidd
Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Todd MacCulloch

Kidd and Martin were excellent two-way players. Everyone else? Van Horn, the only other player to play 30 MPG, put up 10.5 PPG on 39% with 5.8 REB. Kittles put up 12.5P-2.0R-2.5A. MacCulloch played 18 MPG and did nothing but get demolished by Shaq. Their only two bench guys to play 20 MPG were Lucious Harris, who averaged 8 PPG on 23 MPG on a .344/.200/.800 line, and a 21-year old Richard Jefferson, who shot well from the field but ultimately produced just 7 PPG and 4.5 REB in 24 MPG while hitting 45% of his FTs.

This team, not surprisingly, was swept. However, they lost by 5, 23, 3 and 6 points. Three close games, one blowout and a total differential of -37. How does this LeBron led team lose by 48 points in just two games? How does none of this have anything to do with LeBron's leadership and godly team impact?

Sorry, I just don't buy that weak excuse. It can't ALWAYS be on everyone else to such a ridiculous extent.

Part of that is by nearly every statistical measurement, the team LeBron is currently facing is tougher than the team those Nets faced.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 04:32 PM
No. LeBron will go down as a top 5 player of all time for many reasons. Here are a few:

- He lived up to expectations. Almost no player in any sport lives up to expectations. "The Next Great One" is never realized. He was billed the next great one as a teenager and he has lived up to that. Former greats would have never been able to keep their heads high for the good and bad like LeBron has. It's arguable, but he's been bashed more than any star I've ever seen and I'm almost 40. Social media is another opponent nowadays. He's accomplished everything but many titles. But I'll get to that...
- He has done more with less. He's always compared to Mike. Well, MJ had 5 losing seasons in the NBA without Pippen and Phil. In other words, MJ wasn't MJ without help. LeBron taking the Cavs to the Finals before his stint in Miami could be the single most impressive thing he or MJ ever did.
- Stats. They don't lie. He is the best all around player in the history of the game outside of Wilt. What those two have done statistically over time is staggering. He will own so many records before he is done.
- Titles are important for a legacy, but it should not and will not be the only thing. If it was all about titles, Russell's 11 would win every conversation. However, people realize how dominant Wilt was so he sticks around the conversation. MJ will always be in the conversation because he won 6 but he dominated under Phil.
- He'll probably end up going to twice as many Finals as MJ. Think about that. LeBron will end up having as many Finals losses than MJ had losing seasons (5 or more to MJ's 5 losing seasons). At some point, LeBron's consistent success will get recognition with or without the rings.

Just look at Game 1 and Game 2. He played excellent ball Game 1 and they lost by a bit. He played "poorly" in Game 2 by his standards, and his team got annihilated. They were destroyed. If MJ played poorly during the 2nd 3peat, he had Pippen, Kukoc, Harper, Kerr and so many others to carry the slack. LeBron doesn't have the luxury. He has to at least be good or his team sucks. His defense and rebounding never go away, but his shooting, post dominance and passing have to be on or his team doesn't stand a chance. He's a QB.

He didn't play excellent in either game. What are u watching. Hes passive and he's not scoring enough. This is the nba finals. Go for broke. Dont sit back and watch your team suck. If he doesn't starting getting 30-40 points a game they are swept. I don't care how many meaningless assist and rebounds he gets. He isn't doing his job as a leader on the court and his body language is trash. Stop comparing him to MJ. MJ led his team to play well. Something lebron did last year in the finals but is failing to do this year. Hes been a complete joke thus far in these It's like a completely different player last year finals to this year.

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 04:37 PM
Crazy question out of the blue... where would you rank Phil Jackson as an NBA head coach?

There is so much that goes into that. For players, I have tiers. So why not coaches. Phil is in the 1st tier, with Red, Pops, and Riley

I get that he was given Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq. But to be able to get type A personalities on the same page is difficult to say the least. He is as good as anyone

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 04:38 PM
I think the point is MJ has been to 6 finals and Is 6-0

LeBron has been to 7 finals and will be 2-5 after this year.

So yeah he has been to the finals more times than Jordan, but that Jordan is undefeated and has more rings in less trips to the finals is why he won't touch Jordan.

I never said that 2-5 was better than 6-0. It's not. 6-0 is better than 5-10. Winning the finals is the ultimate goal. All I'm saying is that 6-0 is not as good as 6-1. In both cases you won 6 finals but the guy who lost one made it an extra time while the undefeated guy lost earlier. Losing in the finals is better than not making the finals. Losing sooner is worse. That's all I'm saying.

People get obsessed with the "and 0" part of saying someone's record. They put the finals record up like a standalone, ignoring all that it takes to get to that point. To make the finals and lose means you did better than losing before that. Very, very simple concept.

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 04:40 PM
Hes an all time great . Finals play and success is what's seperates the top from the bottom. Call it nonsense if u want. Buts its just how it is.

It is nonsense to act like losing in the finals is worse than not making it. It's actually pure stupidity to be more accurate.

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 04:41 PM
I never said that 2-5 was better than 6-0. It's not. 6-0 is better than 5-10. Winning the finals is the ultimate goal. All I'm saying is that 6-0 is not as good as 6-1. In both cases you won 6 finals but the guy who lost one made it an extra time while the undefeated guy lost earlier. Losing in the finals is better than not making the finals. Losing sooner is worse. That's all I'm saying.

People get obsessed with the "and 0" part of saying someone's record. They put the finals record up like a standalone, ignoring all that it takes to get to that point. To make the finals and lose means you did better than losing before that. Very, very simple concept.

I think the 6-0 is something most use to just shut the door on any MJ competition. Yes, winning 6 finals, Finals MVP's, etc, is a part of MJ's greatness. But at the end of the day, he is the GOAT, well, because he is the best basketball player that ever lived. That is why. His numbers, accolades, etc, just reflect that.

Bigbadmoffo
06-06-2016, 04:46 PM
He will finish top 10 but not top 5

Vinylman
06-06-2016, 04:54 PM
only if you are an idiot and have him to high already...


but generally no... he can only go up on my list and he is definitely holding steady after this year at around 8 (i am projecting 4 more excellent years to get him that high).

Tony_Starks
06-06-2016, 04:55 PM
I agree with MJ "6-0" being misused to make him some untouchable GOAT (he's definitely not mine). People just blurt out 6-0 and completely ignore the years he got beat down by the Celtics and Pistons.

If there were no such thing as Finals records it would take something miraculous for me to put Lebron over MJ tho because he just doesn't have the leadership intangibles or competitiveness he had. Or Magic or Kobe had for that matter.

Lebrons Finals losses, the ones that people generally agree are "legit," have a direct correlation to that lack of intangibles when it counted the most imo....

He's been a part of some of the most lopsided Finals losses now with 3 different teams now, at a certain point he stands out as the common denominator.

numba1CHANGsta
06-06-2016, 04:56 PM
Final's records for players most people include in their Top GOAT list (in no order):

MJ (6-0)
Kareem (6-4)
Russell (11-1)
Magic (5-4)
Wilt (2-5)
Kobe (5-2)
Bird (3-2)
Shaq (4-2)
TD (5-1)
Hakeem (2-0)
LBJ (2-5*)
Big O (1-1)

Every player is at or above .500 in the Finals except for LeBron and Wilt. Now, people say that Final's records don't mean much when ranking the GOAT but let me ask you guys this, wouldn't Jerry West (1-8) and Elgin Baylor (0-8) be considered in the Top 10 had they had better Final's records? Or how about both Hakeem and Big O who only went to the Finals twice, would they have been considered to be ranked higher on the list if they had played and won more championships? So, all this talk about how the Final's records don't mean anything is nonsense.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 04:57 PM
It is nonsense to act like losing in the finals is worse than not making it. It's actually pure stupidity to be more accurate.

Just seems to me these bron fans are coming up with all these excuses for this embarrassing finals. So what's your point? He should get credit for making finals and getting demolished? Losing finals while playing like trash are serious dings on the legacy meter. And once he loses with kyrie and love, after the cavs basically told the world they wouldve won last year if healthy, it's even worse.

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 05:01 PM
The finals record definitely means something. No one is denying that. People are just saying it's stupid to hold a loss as worse than not making it. the only loss Lebron has that should be looked at negatively was the one to Dallas.

The first time he made it he carried a team that had no business being in the Finals. So it caught up to them and he got stomped. Am I supposed to look at that negatively? It would have been better if he didn't get them as far as he did?

The second time vs. SA and these 2 vs. GS (assuming GS closes out this series) are different because his team deserved to be there but they lost to better opponents. You'd like to see him be able to catch 1 out of the 3 but I can't hold it against him that he lost to better teams. That's not a negative to me.

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 05:04 PM
Just seems to me these bron fans are coming up with all these excuses for this embarrassing finals. So what's your point? He should get credit for making finals and getting demolished? Losing finals while playing like trash are serious dings on the legacy meter. And once he loses with kyrie and love, after the cavs basically told the world they wouldve won last year if healthy, it's even worse.

I agree losing the finals hurts his legacy. It'd be better of he won more. I just don't think it hurts more than it would if he were losing before he got to the Finals. That's all I'm saying. I don't isolate the finals record and ignore what it takes to get there. All the time he lost the finals, if he lost the conference finals instead he'd be 2-0. That would make him worse, not better to me.

SeoulBeatz
06-06-2016, 05:10 PM
I don't know, i feel like Kyrie, Love, and Smith have to step it up.

Lebron may not be shooting the ball well, but I'd say he is more than pulling his weight.

21 ppg, 10 rpg, 9 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg.

G.S is just a way better "team". They move the ball so well whereas 3/4 of Cleveland's points comes down to iso plays.

Lebron will still go down as a top 15 player of all time. When he had other stars around him, he was able to win a couple championships. No one player can win it all by himself. Losing this series will not change my view of him as a player. He's a generational talent who will go down as one of the GOATs even if he loses more finals than he's won.

Edit:

And if you swapped Curry and Lebron then G.S would still be up 2-0. The Warriors are just a much better constructed team than Cleveland. They have elite shooters in Curry and Thompson. Elite defenders/passers in Draymond and Iggy. Great defensive bigmen in Bogut and Ezeli, and a solid bench full of sparkplugs in Barbosa, Barnes, Speights, and Livingston.

I imagine that Bron would run point and flourish in that system where he would just have to drive and dish while attacking the paint and making plays. That would be fun to watch.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 05:14 PM
I agree losing the finals hurts his legacy. It'd be better of he won more. I just don't think it hurts more than it would if he were losing before he got to the Finals. That's all I'm saying. I don't isolate the finals record and ignore what it takes to get there. All the time he lost the finals, if he lost the conference finals instead he'd be 2-0. That would make him worse, not better to me.

Well that's your opinion. I'm not elevating him for beating trash east teams all these years only to lose in the finals. Where do you rank him all time?

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 05:14 PM
Final's records for players most people include in their Top GOAT list (in no order):

MJ (6-0)
Kareem (6-4)
Russell (11-1)
Magic (5-4)
Wilt (2-5)
Kobe (5-2)
Bird (3-2)
Shaq (4-2)
TD (5-1)
Hakeem (2-0)
LBJ (2-5*)
Big O (1-1)

Every player is at or above .500 in the Finals except for LeBron and Wilt. Now, people say that Final's records don't mean much when ranking the GOAT but let me ask you guys this, wouldn't Jerry West (1-8) and Elgin Baylor (0-8) be considered in the Top 10 had they had better Final's records? Or how about both Hakeem and Big O who only went to the Finals twice, would they have been considered to be ranked higher on the list if they had played and won more championships? So, all this talk about how the Final's records don't mean anything is nonsense.

Wilt is considered top 3 all time. And his finals record matches what LeBron's will probably be.

Jamiecballer
06-06-2016, 05:15 PM
Final's records for players most people include in their Top GOAT list (in no order):

MJ (6-0)
Kareem (6-4)
Russell (11-1)
Magic (5-4)
Wilt (2-5)
Kobe (5-2)
Bird (3-2)
Shaq (4-2)
TD (5-1)
Hakeem (2-0)
LBJ (2-5*)
Big O (1-1)

Every player is at or above .500 in the Finals except for LeBron and Wilt. Now, people say that Final's records don't mean much when ranking the GOAT but let me ask you guys this, wouldn't Jerry West (1-8) and Elgin Baylor (0-8) be considered in the Top 10 had they had better Final's records? Or how about both Hakeem and Big O who only went to the Finals twice, would they have been considered to be ranked higher on the list if they had played and won more championships? So, all this talk about how the Final's records don't mean anything is nonsense.
Sadly yes but that doesn't say much frankly. Progress on this front is slow moving

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

SeoulBeatz
06-06-2016, 05:23 PM
Wilt is considered top 3 all time. And his finals record matches what LeBron's will probably be.

^^

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 05:33 PM
Wilt is considered top 3 all time. And his finals record matches what LeBron's will probably be.

We didn't even watch wilt. We look at his numbers and say top 3 all time. Lebron is scrutinized alot more in modern times. We know when he chokes, when he doesn't care to play hard, when should win but didn't. I would have to see every game of wilts finals career to feel confident in Ranking him top 3. He really just goes there because other older ppl told us so.

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 05:36 PM
I don't know, i feel like Kyrie, Love, and Smith have to step it up.

Lebron may not be shooting the ball well, but I'd say he is more than pulling his weight.

21 ppg, 10 rpg, 9 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg.

G.S is just a way better "team". They move the ball so well whereas 3/4 of Cleveland's points comes down to iso plays.

Lebron will still go down as a top 15 player of all time. When he had other stars around him, he was able to win a couple championships. No one player can win it all by himself. Losing this series will not change my view of him as a player. He's a generational talent who will go down as one of the GOATs even if he loses more finals than he's won.

Edit:

And if you swapped Curry and Lebron then G.S would still be up 2-0. The Warriors are just a much better constructed team than Cleveland. They have elite shooters in Curry and Thompson. Elite defenders/passers in Draymond and Iggy. Great defensive bigmen in Bogut and Ezeli, and a solid bench full of sparkplugs in Barbosa, Barnes, Speights, and Livingston.

I imagine that Bron would run point and flourish in that system where he would just have to drive and dish while attacking the paint and making plays. That would be fun to watch.

Swap curry/green for bron/kyrie. I'd still take the cavs. Got a feeling bron and kyrie would ruin the fun team play atmosphere in GS.

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 05:39 PM
We didn't even watch wilt. We look at his numbers and say top 3 all time. Lebron is scrutinized alot more in modern times. We know when he chokes, when he doesn't care to play hard, when should win but didn't. I would have to see every game of wilts finals career to feel confident in Ranking him top 3. He really just goes there because other older ppl told us so.

if you research enough, you can get all you need on Wilt. Plenty of footage, plenty written, documented, and we have the numbers.

Kush McDaniels
06-06-2016, 05:40 PM
Well that's your opinion. I'm not elevating him for beating trash east teams all these years only to lose in the finals. Where do you rank him all time?

The east teams MJ faced during those championship seasons were pretty overrated. Nostalgia is fun though.

nastynice
06-06-2016, 05:45 PM
At first I thought no, of course not, what a dumb question.

But if they keep losing like this, then I don't know, maybe. This has been an absolute joke of a finals so far, and this is the team that slept walked their way thru the east with no resistance?? It just reminds me what a sad pathetic joke that entire ****in conference is

2 years ago the 8th seed in the west was better than the current 1 seed in the east. What the ****! Up til this point I thought the playoff format should stay the same, but this is just getting too stupid. If this keeps going for another 1-2 years I seriously think the league needs to step in and do something. I don't know what, but something needs to be done

Jayb587
06-06-2016, 05:45 PM
if you research enough, you can get all you need on Wilt. Plenty of footage, plenty written, documented, and we have the numbers.

Nah. I need the games. Wilt isn't top 3 to me regardless anyway.

hugepatsfan
06-06-2016, 05:46 PM
Well that's your opinion. I'm not elevating him for beating trash east teams all these years only to lose in the finals. Where do you rank him all time?

So if instead of losing to the teams he has lost to he was losing to those trash east teams you wouldn't lower him for that? I think you would (and should).

europagnpilgrim
06-06-2016, 05:47 PM
Final's records for players most people include in their Top GOAT list (in no order):

MJ (6-0)
Kareem (6-4)
Russell (11-1)
Magic (5-4)
Wilt (2-5)
Kobe (5-2)
Bird (3-2)
Shaq (4-2)
TD (5-1)
Hakeem (2-0)
LBJ (2-5*)
Big O (1-1)

Every player is at or above .500 in the Finals except for LeBron and Wilt. Now, people say that Final's records don't mean much when ranking the GOAT but let me ask you guys this, wouldn't Jerry West (1-8) and Elgin Baylor (0-8) be considered in the Top 10 had they had better Final's records? Or how about both Hakeem and Big O who only went to the Finals twice, would they have been considered to be ranked higher on the list if they had played and won more championships? So, all this talk about how the Final's records don't mean anything is nonsense.

No West or Baylor wouldn't be higher just like The Big Dipper wouldn't be higher had he won more, had he been 11-1 like Russell he wouldn't be the landslide most dominant best all time, he is with or without that, just like Jordan was the most dominant solo act upon his draft day rookie year until 90' prior to zero rings, he didn't win until year 7 but was clearly the best or top 2-3 at worst during that span since some will say Magic/Bird because of the stacked teams and rings they had, Moses/DrJ also had a case and Zeke of the Pistons also since they damn near 4 peated(had it not been for Finals ankle injury and the infamous Bird steal in ECF), that's what seperates Zeke from the Nash and Stocktons of the world was his ability to go Jordan/The Answer mode and drop 25-30 straight points if needed at any given moment

that's the thing about displaying dominance/impact, Big O is still the same triple double machine with or without 5 rings, same with Jordan/Kareem etc.. Russell would still have his spot because of what he did in his era, they showcased it on the court annually, you can make a case for a lot of players to be in top 10 but for some reason a ring means something different for whatever player someone is trying to make a case for, see Russell vs. Jordan for prime example(11-6)

that's the tricky thing about rings, some guys take teams to the finals that had no business being there in the first place like a Lebron or Hakeem or The Answer, so shouldn't that carry major weight within itself as ranking them higher since they displayed it for at least 10+ seasons? or having guys who are the alpha/best player on teams that are expected/stacked to be there carry more? I choose the former

The Big Dipper came into the league on a average team and they battled Russell dynasty to 6 and 7 games each series which is an accomplishment in itself, then once he got the horses they set best record single season in wins and mopped Russell/C's and destroyed the 8peat, that's why I know The Big Dipper was the most dominant. had he been drafted by Lakers with Baylor/West they would have won multiple titles and would have probably won 8 in a row, and he would have been the logo of the nba or at worst half of it with West because he was that dominant on both ends, Baylor and West were mostly known for offensive dominance

that goes to show you the rings factor is a joke when Russell(11 rings) is not the logo of the nba but West(1 ring) is, its also a Esau/Edomite society/league that plays a major part in deciding the outcome and brainwashing the culture of society

Finals records(w-l) are basically a product taking the best player from a legit pre season contender aka a stacked team that should make it barring a major injury,but to me taking the best(in prime/young) player away and adding him to a lottery team or non contender and making them instant contenders are the special type players, its a handful and maybe two at the most who can do that in history of the game

Hawkeye15
06-06-2016, 06:01 PM
No West or Baylor wouldn't be higher just like The Big Dipper wouldn't be higher had he won more, had he been 11-1 like Russell he wouldn't be the landslide most dominant best all time, he is with or without that, just like Jordan was the most dominant solo act upon his draft day rookie year until 90' prior to zero rings, he didn't win until year 7 but was clearly the best or top 2-3 at worst during that span since some will say Magic/Bird because of the stacked teams and rings they had, Moses/DrJ also had a case and Zeke of the Pistons also since they damn near 4 peated(had it not been for Finals ankle injury and the infamous Bird steal in ECF), that's what seperates Zeke from the Nash and Stocktons of the world was his ability to go Jordan/The Answer mode and drop 25-30 straight points if needed at any given moment

that's the thing about displaying dominance/impact, Big O is still the same triple double machine with or without 5 rings, same with Jordan/Kareem etc.. Russell would still have his spot because of what he did in his era, they showcased it on the court annually, you can make a case for a lot of players to be in top 10 but for some reason a ring means something different for whatever player someone is trying to make a case for, see Russell vs. Jordan for prime example(11-6)

that's the tricky thing about rings, some guys take teams to the finals that had no business being there in the first place like a Lebron or Hakeem or The Answer, so shouldn't that carry major weight within itself as ranking them higher since they displayed it for at least 10+ seasons? or having guys who are the alpha/best player on teams that are expected/stacked to be there carry more? I choose the former

The Big Dipper came into the league on a average team and they battled Russell dynasty to 6 and 7 games each series which is an accomplishment in itself, then once he got the horses they set best record single season in wins and mopped Russell/C's and destroyed the 8peat, that's why I know The Big Dipper was the most dominant. had he been drafted by Lakers with Baylor/West they would have won multiple titles and would have probably won 8 in a row, and he would have been the logo of the nba or at worst half of it with West because he was that dominant on both ends, Baylor and West were mostly known for offensive dominance

that goes to show you the rings factor is a joke when Russell(11 rings) is not the logo of the nba but West(1 ring) is, its also a Esau/Edomite society/league that plays a major part in deciding the outcome and brainwashing the culture of society

Finals records(w-l) are basically a product taking the best player from a legit pre season contender aka a stacked team that should make it barring a major injury,but to me taking the best(in prime/young) player away and adding him to a lottery team or non contender and making them instant contenders are the special type players, its a handful and maybe two at the most who can do that in history of the game

Very logical post. But you do know, obviously, some people will cherry pick anything they can to put down players they hate. I agree with your post here though, spot on.

Bostonjorge
06-06-2016, 06:06 PM
So James getting destroyed like no one before is ok because he lost to better or historical great teams? Yet when James destroyed historically bad teams to make the finals for 90% of his playoffs career, that gets him in the top 10?

Sportsguy9695
06-06-2016, 06:11 PM
He's a back to back champ, multiple MVP and all NBA 1st team.

Another L doesn't undo those accomplishments.

Still one of the best to ever do it and top 5 best all around player ever.

what he said

L8kers4life
06-06-2016, 06:35 PM
I never said that 2-5 was better than 6-0. It's not. 6-0 is better than 5-10. Winning the finals is the ultimate goal. All I'm saying is that 6-0 is not as good as 6-1. In both cases you won 6 finals but the guy who lost one made it an extra time while the undefeated guy lost earlier. Losing in the finals is better than not making the finals. Losing sooner is worse. That's all I'm saying.

People get obsessed with the "and 0" part of saying someone's record. They put the finals record up like a standalone, ignoring all that it takes to get to that point. To make the finals and lose means you did better than losing before that. Very, very simple concept.

I agree with you.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-06-2016, 07:08 PM
Lebron is a great player but these finals are showing how important fundamental shooting skills under pressure are for a superstars reputation. I think he lacks the confidence in his shooting that clutch killers like Bird and Jordan had in their days. That is another reason I always felt like Lebron had more in common with Magic than Jordan. I really do not remember other superstar guards or wings throwing up air balls in Finals series at the rate Lebron does. Last night as the ball was leaving his hand I just had a feeling it was going to be a air ball. To answer the original question I always had him in the 6-10 slot all time and he will stay there. So no drop for me. There may be a drop for the folks that said he was better than MJ, Kareem, Bird, etc.

42-15-7
06-06-2016, 07:20 PM
Lebron is a great player but these finals are showing how important fundamental shooting skills under pressure are for a superstars reputation. I think he lacks the confidence in his shooting that clutch killers like Bird and Jordan had in their days. That is another reason I always felt like Lebron had more in common with Magic than Jordan. I really do not remember other superstar guards or wings throwing up air balls in Finals series at the rate Lebron does. Last night as the ball was leaving his hand I just had a feeling it was going to be a air ball. To answer the original question I always had him in the 6-10 slot all time and he will stay there. So no drop for me. There may be a drop for the folks that said he was better than MJ, Kareem, Bird, etc.

One of the interesting things about Magic is that he actually kept growing as a player as he got older. Added the 3 ball in the last few years of his cut-short career, and led the league in free-throw shooting a few years before that. (I think it was in his final post-HIV All-Star game that he rained 3's.)

LeBron's game was always the bull-rush with the lowered shoulder, and the fatal flaw in that plan is that in the playoffs people will take the charge. (They won't do it in the regular season because it's not worth getting injured.)

The league even changed rules having to do with traveling and ball-handling so LeBron would be more effective, but as his shooting has fallen off later in his career (when it should have been getting better) he's become very one-dimensional. Even his passing now seems like an afterthought as opposed to part of the way he controls the other team's defense.

numba1CHANGsta
06-06-2016, 07:38 PM
So James getting destroyed like no one before is ok because he lost to better or historical great teams? Yet when James destroyed historically bad teams to make the finals for 90% of his playoffs career, that gets him in the top 10?

Playing in the East his entire career made LeBron look unstoppable, but once he got to the Finals where the games actually mattered he couldn't handle the elite Western teams. If MJ played in the Eastern Conference today and played along with two other superstars, not only would he have gone to the Finals every year but he'd probably win all of them.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-06-2016, 07:52 PM
One of the interesting things about Magic is that he actually kept growing as a player as he got older. Added the 3 ball in the last few years of his cut-short career, and led the league in free-throw shooting a few years before that. (I think it was in his final post-HIV All-Star game that he rained 3's.)

LeBron's game was always the bull-rush with the lowered shoulder, and the fatal flaw in that plan is that in the playoffs people will take the charge. (They won't do it in the regular season because it's not worth getting injured.)

The league even changed rules having to do with traveling and ball-handling so LeBron would be more effective, but as his shooting has fallen off later in his career (when it should have been getting better) he's become very one-dimensional. Even his passing now seems like an afterthought as opposed to part of the way he controls the other team's defense.

I agree Magic did get much better at FT/outside shooting later on in his career. I remember his kind of funky looking set shot. I assume he got better because he not only practiced a lot but also his confidence in it rose. Magic was a great player even if he was not the most natural outside shooter.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 08:36 PM
Good post. You are right, he shouldn't be getting destroyed like this. He doesn't look like he cares. In fact thia is how he looked in the playoffs before he left cle the first time. And i think he's leaving again after he gets swept. Lebron is not a great leader. Everyone wants to blame his team. Fact is over the years good players seem to take nosedives when playing with Lebron but he does elevate the scrubs. Good leader maybe. Wade is a great leader. He needs to go back there and find some direction again and try and go for more championships. Sadly though I think the decline is evident. Hes just not the same anymore. He looks old, slow, incapable of dominance like in the finals last year.

Yeah, I've just never seen another all-time player get so many excuses and blame set to everyone but him. I consider LeBron top 10 of all time, currently in the 6-10 range. After the 2013 Finals I mentally moved him ahead of guys like Bird and Shaq, in part assuming how the rest of his career would play out. After the 2014 Finals and this current one so far, I don't know. I just can't see either of those guys getting demolished this badly and doing so little to stop it.

People like to point to his overall numbers from 2014 but I remember watching those Finals. I remember seeing him go through a 20-minute scoreless stretch in two separate games that they just got demolished in. Then, after the game was way out of hand, he started pouring in some points. Some people like to point to how unstoppable the Spurs seemed, but ignore that they got a ton of wide open shots from Kawhi Leonard blowing by LeBron at will and completely breaking down the Heat's team D as a result.

There are still games to be played so we'll see how this one ends up, but now I'm leaning him more being in the 8-10 range than the 6-8 range. But at this rate, like 2014, the Finals team is kicking LeBron and his teams *** worse than they did any western conference team on their way in.

How can LeBron be so great and so ridiculously helpless at the same time? There's a bunch of people who have been saying that LeBron is still the best player in the NBA, some still in this thread even after game 2. OK, how can the best player in the sport with a very talented team be THIS helpless to avoid the biggest *** kicking the world has ever seen? These Cavs have been far worse than last year's injured squad and even the 2007 Cavs. Just... how?

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 08:48 PM
That's basically his legacy. Every time you think he can't get more dominated in a worse fashion we get 2016 finals. When James name is brought up excuses will have to follow. It's basically woven into his legacy.

Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of that type of thinking lol. Kinda sad, though. Peyton Manning-syndrome.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 08:52 PM
Part of that is by nearly every statistical measurement, the team LeBron is currently facing is tougher than the team those Nets faced.

Even if that's true, are LeBron and these Cavs not clearly better by nearly every statistical measure than those Nets? They were a 52-win team, I mean damn lol. Jason Kidd went back the following year with the 49-win Nets and took Duncan and the Spurs to game 6. Maybe Kidd is better than LeBron? Idk, certainly doesn't seem as helpless.

JordansBulls
06-06-2016, 08:54 PM
Not only did Magic play much tougher teams in order to win his rings, but maybe his greatest success was dragging the Lakers to the finals to actually face MJ's Bulls, when that was supposed to be the Blazers' year. (If you're old enough you'll remember that Drexler's team was loaded AND seasoned, while Magic was driving a completely different roster from the Showtime era.)

It matters how many rings you win, but it also matters how many times you get there, which is why nobody will ever touch Russell. Not taking anything away from MJ, but just looking at the finals doesn't tell the whole story.

Lakers opponents from 81-87

81
Houston Rockets: 40-42

82
Phoenix Suns: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 48-34

83
Portland Trail Blazers: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 53-29

84
Kings: 38-44
Mavericks: 43-39
Suns: 41-41

85
Suns: 36-46
Blazers: 42-40
Nuggets: 52-30

86
Spurs: 35-47
Mavericks: 44-38
Rockets: 51-31

87
Nuggets: 37-45
Warriors: 42-40
Sonics: 39-43

1. The overall record of their opponents was 733-661 (.526). This averages out to 43-39 over an 82 game schedule.
2. Over a 7 year span, they only faced 3 WC teams that won 50 games. None ever won 55 games. It isn't like they dominated these the 50 win teams either (2-1 series, 9-7 overall).

effen5
06-06-2016, 08:59 PM
Playing in the east inflated LeBrons numbers. He's clearly a top 50 player not a top 5 player (sorta serious)

naps
06-06-2016, 09:03 PM
So let me guess. If LeBron didnt make the finals, got bounced in the 1st round you would think that's a better record for his resume? What a stupid thought and a stupider thread.

BKLYNpigeon
06-06-2016, 09:10 PM
I don't get why people care about rankings so much. lol.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 09:48 PM
Lakers opponents from 81-87

81
Houston Rockets: 40-42

82
Phoenix Suns: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 48-34

83
Portland Trail Blazers: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 53-29

84
Kings: 38-44
Mavericks: 43-39
Suns: 41-41

85
Suns: 36-46
Blazers: 42-40
Nuggets: 52-30

86
Spurs: 35-47
Mavericks: 44-38
Rockets: 51-31

87
Nuggets: 37-45
Warriors: 42-40
Sonics: 39-43

1. The overall record of their opponents was 733-661 (.526). This averages out to 43-39 over an 82 game schedule.
2. Over a 7 year span, they only faced 3 WC teams that won 50 games. None ever won 55 games. It isn't like they dominated these the 50 win teams either (2-1 series, 9-7 overall).

The 80's as an era is severely overrated for so many reasons. There was no defense, all of the star talent was mostly spread to just a few teams and everyone else sucked. The year Jordan broke his foot and only played 18 games he came back for the postseason and had his famous 63 point game vs Boston. Everyone remembers that... how many people remember that the playoff Bulls went 30-52 that season? So insanely disgusting lol.

FOXHOUND
06-06-2016, 09:53 PM
So let me guess. If LeBron didnt make the finals, got bounced in the 1st round you would think that's a better record for his resume? What a stupid thought and a stupider thread.

If LeBron was on the other side of the insanely lopsided 2014 Finals or the first two games of this Finals would that not be brought up for how legendary he is? You're trying to tell me that if a LeBron led team crushed a Finals opponent in games 1 and 2 by a combined 48 points that the entire basketball world wouldn't explode and marvel at his awesomeness?

LeBron seems to just get everything his way. He's amazing for beating weaker team in the eastern conference but anytime he loses, no matter when he loses, it's every other player and coaches fault but his. Do I have that right?

Bostonjorge
06-06-2016, 10:49 PM
So let me guess. If LeBron didnt make the finals, got bounced in the 1st round you would think that's a better record for his resume? What a stupid thought and a stupider thread.
I know right. It's like saying Curry is better off not winning a ring then winning it and not getting finals MVP. Imagine that thread?

D-Leethal
06-06-2016, 11:29 PM
Whether you agree with it or not, history won't remember LeBron's Finals record fondly unless he turns it around. Do you ever hear anyone but hardcore basketball historians fawn over Elgin Baylor? No, you hear how many times he lost in the Finals. LeBron is always going to be remembered as a top 5-10 guy so in 20-30 years from when young kids are brushing up on their GOAT lists they will hold 2-5, 2-6 against him and he will have the perception of a guy who choked. He's trying to fit in amongst a crew of 6-0, 5-4, 5-1, 4-1 etc. Whether you will agree with it or not, popular perception will have ring bias and popular perception will form the legacy's.

Even if he doesn't "drop" he's definitely not solidifying or putting a stranglehold on a top 3-5 spot like he would be if he was able to flip some of those Finals Ls to Ws.

I do think LeBron is conscious of this, and cares deeply about that legacy stuff as much as anyone I've seen this generation (next to Kobe). That's why he is trying to control his own destiny as much as possible to form power alliances all over the place.

ewing
06-06-2016, 11:31 PM
So let me guess. If LeBron didnt make the finals, got bounced in the 1st round you would think that's a better record for his resume? What a stupid thought and a stupider thread.

this is exactly what i think

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-06-2016, 11:39 PM
So let me guess. If LeBron didnt make the finals, got bounced in the 1st round you would think that's a better record for his resume? What a stupid thought and a stupider thread.

It wouldn't be better. The reason so many throw the finals record in his and his fans face as his fans continue to glamour over getting to the finals so many times and use that as an argument for his greatness. When we all know that he doesn't face the competition necessary to use that as something on his resume. LeBron fans can't tout 6 Straight finals appearance and then get upset when people say "yeah but how many did he win?" If you feel like I feel that his team wasn't up to par and shouldn't have been in the finals if they played an evenly spread playoff system, and you dont say winning 6 straight eastern conference championships is part of his greatness, then you shouldn't have to listen to people spouting out 2-7. This is only meant for those who Proclaim his greatnes on the basis that he beats up a conference where the best player he played against was Kyle Lowry.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-06-2016, 11:41 PM
I don't get why people care about rankings so much. lol.

It's a barbershop conversation mostly. What else would we talk about?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2016, 11:49 PM
Lebron's doing what hes supposed to do. Get as far in the playoffs as possible. He won the series ge was supposed to but just ended up losing to the better team (hes been underdog in the finals losses all but 1). Losing in the finals isnt what you want but it isnt a failure like its made out to be.

Athletes may as well throw away their silver and bronze medals.

Bostonjorge
06-07-2016, 12:12 AM
Lebron's doing what hes supposed to do. Get as far in the playoffs as possible. He won the series ge was supposed to but just ended up losing to the better team (hes been underdog in the finals losses all but 1). Losing in the finals isnt what you want but it isnt a failure like its made out to be.

Athletes may as well throw away their silver and bronze medals.

James only beat 1 team where he was the underdog in the east playoffs his entire career. So if losing to better teams is not really bad then shouldn't beating lesser teams be not really great?

You must of played in a time where every team and kid got a trophy.

TrueFan420
06-07-2016, 12:44 AM
No West or Baylor wouldn't be higher just like The Big Dipper wouldn't be higher had he won more, had he been 11-1 like Russell he wouldn't be the landslide most dominant best all time, he is with or without that, just like Jordan was the most dominant solo act upon his draft day rookie year until 90' prior to zero rings, he didn't win until year 7 but was clearly the best or top 2-3 at worst during that span since some will say Magic/Bird because of the stacked teams and rings they had, Moses/DrJ also had a case and Zeke of the Pistons also since they damn near 4 peated(had it not been for Finals ankle injury and the infamous Bird steal in ECF), that's what seperates Zeke from the Nash and Stocktons of the world was his ability to go Jordan/The Answer mode and drop 25-30 straight points if needed at any given moment

that's the thing about displaying dominance/impact, Big O is still the same triple double machine with or without 5 rings, same with Jordan/Kareem etc.. Russell would still have his spot because of what he did in his era, they showcased it on the court annually, you can make a case for a lot of players to be in top 10 but for some reason a ring means something different for whatever player someone is trying to make a case for, see Russell vs. Jordan for prime example(11-6)

that's the tricky thing about rings, some guys take teams to the finals that had no business being there in the first place like a Lebron or Hakeem or The Answer, so shouldn't that carry major weight within itself as ranking them higher since they displayed it for at least 10+ seasons? or having guys who are the alpha/best player on teams that are expected/stacked to be there carry more? I choose the former

The Big Dipper came into the league on a average team and they battled Russell dynasty to 6 and 7 games each series which is an accomplishment in itself, then once he got the horses they set best record single season in wins and mopped Russell/C's and destroyed the 8peat, that's why I know The Big Dipper was the most dominant. had he been drafted by Lakers with Baylor/West they would have won multiple titles and would have probably won 8 in a row, and he would have been the logo of the nba or at worst half of it with West because he was that dominant on both ends, Baylor and West were mostly known for offensive dominance

that goes to show you the rings factor is a joke when Russell(11 rings) is not the logo of the nba but West(1 ring) is, its also a Esau/Edomite society/league that plays a major part in deciding the outcome and brainwashing the culture of society

Finals records(w-l) are basically a product taking the best player from a legit pre season contender aka a stacked team that should make it barring a major injury,but to me taking the best(in prime/young) player away and adding him to a lottery team or non contender and making them instant contenders are the special type players, its a handful and maybe two at the most who can do that in history of the game

I want to start by saying I generally agree with everything you said. Now I'm going to cherry pick this one bold point...

You say Lebron took a team that didn't belong there. His two finals wins and 2-4 record with the Heat do not meet that criteria. That team absolutely belonged. They had 3 legit top players at each of their positions. And very solid role players top to bottom. That in no way shape or form was him dragging his team to the finals and he was favored in 3 of the 4.

Then look at his zero wins with Cleveland. Yes compared to the teams out west his team was a massive underdog but there was no real contenders in the east. So it's not like he dragged his team past worthier teams. He had a cake walk to the finals. You could maybe argue the Pistons team he beat on the way to the first finals trip was legit but they were old and past their time when he knocked them off.

Lebron definately takes a lot of heat for his actions and more than most but he also brings all of that attention on himself when many times he doesn't need to. Championships are one by teams and that will never change but the reality after that 1 finals trip he helped create two very talented teams and squandered/squandering opportunities with both.

TrueFan420
06-07-2016, 12:48 AM
James only beat 1 team where he was the underdog in the east playoffs his entire career. So if losing to better teams is not really bad then shouldn't beating lesser teams be not really great?

You must of played in a time where every team and kid got a trophy.

I don't remember as clearly but I think he was considered an underdog versus the Mavs. Maybe even but not underdog. He wasn't an underdog versus the Thunder at best you could argue it going either way but their experience versus the inexperienced thunder tilted the odds to the Heat. He wasn't an underdog versus the Spurs the first time they matched up. He was the second time. 3 out of 4 times with the heat he was favored. At worst it was split 2 out of 4. Definitely an underdog with his Cavs sides.

flea
06-07-2016, 01:08 AM
I don't remember as clearly but I think he was considered an underdog versus the Mavs. Maybe even but not underdog. He wasn't an underdog versus the Thunder at best you could argue it going either way but their experience versus the inexperienced thunder tilted the odds to the Heat. He wasn't an underdog versus the Spurs the first time they matched up. He was the second time. 3 out of 4 times with the heat he was favored. At worst it was split 2 out of 4. Definitely an underdog with his Cavs sides.

Heat were heavily favored over the Mavs in 2011, that's why pretty much everyone considers it a blight on his resume (even his staunchest fans). IIRC the Thunder and '14 Spurs were slight Vegas favorites, at least the Spurs were I know. I think most people realize he had the most talented team every year in Miami, in large part due to his talent but also having 2 other in prime All-Stars with 2-way ability.

Bostonjorge
06-07-2016, 01:19 AM
I don't remember as clearly but I think he was considered an underdog versus the Mavs. Maybe even but not underdog. He wasn't an underdog versus the Thunder at best you could argue it going either way but their experience versus the inexperienced thunder tilted the odds to the Heat. He wasn't an underdog versus the Spurs the first time they matched up. He was the second time. 3 out of 4 times with the heat he was favored. At worst it was split 2 out of 4. Definitely an underdog with his Cavs sides.

East playoffs only. Only that Detroit series in 07, other then that every other series his team was a big time favorite.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2016, 01:53 AM
Heat were heavily favored over the Mavs in 2011, that's why pretty much everyone considers it a blight on his resume (even his staunchest fans). IIRC the Thunder and '14 Spurs were slight Vegas favorites, at least the Spurs were I know. I think most people realize he had the most talented team every year in Miami, in large part due to his talent but also having 2 other in prime All-Stars with 2-way ability.

They were heavy favorites and it was a heavy choke job by lebron... Nobody can ever debate this nor should they so the argument that when he losses we make excuses like others are making just isnt factual... I am his biggest fan but his finals record means little to me because the majority of the teams he went against were all better outside of that mavs series... Hell In 1 of his 2 rings I think the spurs were the better team... The thunder series the heat were the favorites in my eyes as well or should have been.... But he can never surpass a guy like Jordan because of that choke job that was the mavs series... They should have won that in 5 easily.

Fans and people in general are starting to smarten up and down the line players will not be evaluated by championships as much in any sport... Lebron in 20 years will be a top 5 player to the majority of people. Championships matter no doubt but its not anywhere close to an individual players skill set/statistics over their career when ranking individuals and again we are smartening up as people.... Now we are understanding defense/schedule/how players fit and what players do for their teams.... Example if Iverson played in today's NBA he would not be nearly the top player he was made out to be in the late 90s/early 2000s where we didnt give a **** about defense and high volume shooters or 1 dimensional players.

Most smart fans of this sport have james 5-10 right now... when he is all said and done he will likely be 3-5 by the majority of fans..... He will never pass Jordan nor would I put him above Magic. Its a shame really because if Lebron had the Jordan/Kobe mentality he could have actually had a legit chance at being GOAT.... I can never argue against 2 things... Lebron literally being a horrid GM and how passive he gets in certain situations because of how he gets into his own head.... Another example is this upcoming game 3... Jordan/Kobe would come out guns Blazing and if they lost it would be because they let it all hang out and losing never crossed their mind.... James coming in beats himself up so much before he even steps on the floor mentally he will have lost the game.

Laker Legend42
06-07-2016, 02:37 AM
This is simply who Lebron is. His willingness to pass the ball is the usual argument when comparing him to Kobe Bryant. I would like to see a blend of both. I think he needs to understand that he could help his teammates out a lot if he put more pressure on the defense. Get them reacting to him then disecet the defense. At the same time you can't get mad at him because he's always played the game this way. His legacy is safe. He has won two.

naps
06-07-2016, 03:25 AM
If LeBron was on the other side of the insanely lopsided 2014 Finals or the first two games of this Finals would that not be brought up for how legendary he is? You're trying to tell me that if a LeBron led team crushed a Finals opponent in games 1 and 2 by a combined 48 points that the entire basketball world wouldn't explode and marvel at his awesomeness?


He's ranked where he's at right now because of what he has already done in his career. Nothing can take that away from him. If he is ranked at no. 5 right now, he will always be there until someone new takes away his spot. From this point on whatever he does will either improve or keep his ranking the same. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at here.

Let me give you an example so we can better understand this. Melo never made it to the finals in his 13 year career. Would he be ranked higher or lower than now if he went to 4 finals and lost? Do you liked being bounced in the first rounds since 1999 or not making the playoffs than making it to the finals and losing it?

naps
06-07-2016, 03:31 AM
I know right. It's like saying Curry is better off not winning a ring then winning it and not getting finals MVP. Imagine that thread?

Except no one said that. Nice try.

Kevj77
06-07-2016, 03:35 AM
Lebron doesn't drop IMO, but I don't have him as high as top 3-5 yet. He could end up top 5. Playing in the East his whole career. Jumping ship and picking his teams. Choking against real competition. He isn't a all-time great yet. He could be still just not yet.

His career isn't over.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:55 AM
If the cavs keep losing in the manner they did the first 2 games, then **** it, he def drops on my list, back below Kobe. Right now he is playing like FAR AND AWAY the MOST mentally fragile "legend" the game has ever saw.

I'm a little pissed at him right now, so I'm not gonna keep going on my rant, I'm gonna give him the next few games to turn this thing around and prove he's got some remnants of cajones left.

DarkKnight
06-07-2016, 08:50 AM
If the cavs keep losing in the manner they did the first 2 games, then **** it, he def drops on my list, back below Kobe. Right now he is playing like FAR AND AWAY the MOST mentally fragile "legend" the game has ever saw.

I'm a little pissed at him right now, so I'm not gonna keep going on my rant, I'm gonna give him the next few games to turn this thing around and prove he's got some remnants of cajones left.
You had him above Kobe ? Yikes

Tony_Starks
06-07-2016, 09:46 AM
Lakers opponents from 81-87

81
Houston Rockets: 40-42

82
Phoenix Suns: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 48-34

83
Portland Trail Blazers: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 53-29

84
Kings: 38-44
Mavericks: 43-39
Suns: 41-41

85
Suns: 36-46
Blazers: 42-40
Nuggets: 52-30

86
Spurs: 35-47
Mavericks: 44-38
Rockets: 51-31

87
Nuggets: 37-45
Warriors: 42-40
Sonics: 39-43

1. The overall record of their opponents was 733-661 (.526). This averages out to 43-39 over an 82 game schedule.
2. Over a 7 year span, they only faced 3 WC teams that won 50 games. None ever won 55 games. It isn't like they dominated these the 50 win teams either (2-1 series, 9-7 overall).

If they didn't have to beat one of the greatest dynasties in history Celtics, loaded Philly team with no Kareem, and the the Bad Boys Pistons to win those championships then what you just said would actually be relevant.

Lakers beat some of greatest teams ever assembled for those rings, back then the Finals weren't just a formality....

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 01:06 PM
If the cavs keep losing in the manner they did the first 2 games, then **** it, he def drops on my list, back below Kobe. Right now he is playing like FAR AND AWAY the MOST mentally fragile "legend" the game has ever saw.

I'm a little pissed at him right now, so I'm not gonna keep going on my rant, I'm gonna give him the next few games to turn this thing around and prove he's got some remnants of cajones left.

I would love to hear an explanation of how this year for Lebron is so bad it actually takes away from what he has accomplished in the past?

You admitted you were pissed for some reason so maybe that's it, just would love to hear solid reasoning behind this (from an individual stand point for Lebron dropping). We have seen Curry play poorly, Durant play poorly, Wetbrook play poorly and now Lebron is to an extent as well yet only one of them appears to be dropping to some (despite him being the one not peaking). I just don't get how this season can take away what he has already accomplished.

PhillyFaninLA
06-07-2016, 01:28 PM
So if you play bad and lose it don't effect your position right? How many top 5 players would get benched twice in the 4th during the finals? What about top 10? James is about to break his own record for biggest point differential loses in finals history. He will be number 1 and 2 on that finals list for worse losers of all time.

Winning titles is a team accomplishment, the point differential is about the fact that he typically doesn't have the better team when he makes the finals.

The only time you can say a Lebron team in the finals should have won was against Dallas, all of the other times he probably didn't have the better team and should have lost.

People hiding behind the W - L record don't understand and may not even watch the game.

PhillyFaninLA
06-07-2016, 01:29 PM
I would love to hear an explanation of how this year for Lebron is so bad it actually takes away from what he has accomplished in the past?

You admitted you were pissed for some reason so maybe that's it, just would love to hear solid reasoning behind this (from an individual stand point for Lebron dropping). We have seen Curry play poorly, Durant play poorly, Wetbrook play poorly and now Lebron is to an extent as well yet only one of them appears to be dropping to some (despite him being the one not peaking). I just don't get how this season can take away what he has already accomplished.


People would rather be haters and trolls than enjoy watching one of the best players ever.

YAALREADYKNO
06-07-2016, 01:31 PM
I just wanna see Lebron have a Game 6 against Boston type game tomorrow night.

8kobe24
06-07-2016, 01:52 PM
6 str8 finals=goat

Supreme LA
06-07-2016, 02:08 PM
If the cavs keep losing in the manner they did the first 2 games, then **** it, he def drops on my list, back below Kobe. Right now he is playing like FAR AND AWAY the MOST mentally fragile "legend" the game has ever saw.

I'm a little pissed at him right now, so I'm not gonna keep going on my rant, I'm gonna give him the next few games to turn this thing around and prove he's got some remnants of cajones left.

He hasn't passed Kobe as of yet. People just prematurely placed him there because of where they assumed his career would go, which actually hasn't worked out the way they had hoped.

Most people don't have Lebron ahead of Kobe yet.

S & B Bleeder
06-07-2016, 02:09 PM
Anyone who had LeBron in their top 5 ever to begin with is an unmitigated dumbshit.


He's always been a mentally fragile child who will flat out quit and pout when calls arent going his way or the team isnt playing well. There have been many times over the years that i've enjoyed watching him play and have seen him do incredible things on the court.....and then when things dont go his way and the chips are down, he folds like a cheap tent.

THAT is where he loses all respect from alot of people who dislike him. He isnt tough AT ALL, and it has cost him the chance to have more rings.

As it stands, he only has the 2 rings because he aligned himself with 2 SURE FIRE Hall of Famers in Wade and Ray Allen, with a possible 3rd in Chris Bosh. Take any 1 of those guys away, and LJ has 0 rings. It is the truth, and a huge knock against him in the eyes of MANY.


What kind of fool takes LBJ over Jordan, Kobe, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem or Magic? ALL extremely mentally TOUGH men who rose to the occasion when everything was against them and beat OTHER Hall of Famers to get their rings. The 80's were a bloodbath, with the golden age of talent shredding each other. Jordan couldnt even break through until '91....7 years into his career, because of the insanity. Let that sink in.

I've witnessed too many HOF greats in my lifetime, and there is NO way LBJ surpasses most of them. Period.




So to answer the question, he will most likely drop in the all time rankings in the eyes of many after getting swept (or close to) this series. Mine included.

valade16
06-07-2016, 02:12 PM
If they didn't have to beat one of the greatest dynasties in history Celtics, loaded Philly team with no Kareem, and the the Bad Boys Pistons to win those championships then what you just said would actually be relevant.

Lakers beat some of greatest teams ever assembled for those rings, back then the Finals weren't just a formality....

But the Western conference playoffs was apparently.

Supreme LA
06-07-2016, 02:15 PM
so james getting destroyed like no one before is ok because he lost to better or historical great teams? Yet when james destroyed historically bad teams to make the finals for 90% of his playoffs career, that gets him in the top 10?

this.

ewing
06-07-2016, 02:19 PM
he is dropping b/c his excuses are wearing thin. the people who always blamed his teammates or coach are starting to say, wait min, he keep getting new coaches and new all star teammates but the result doesn't change

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 02:29 PM
He hasn't passed Kobe as of yet. People just prematurely placed him there because of where they assumed his career would go, which actually hasn't worked out the way they had hoped.

Most people don't have Lebron ahead of Kobe yet.

What?

Between this forum and the larger forum I read consistently I haven't seen Kobe over Lebron in an all time poll for a couple years now. I have no doubt in LA Kobe is still considered the best but when it comes to "most people" I think you are off base.

Lebron being ranked that highly was not just projection, I am against that when ranking (see me arguing for Kobe 4 years ago and trying to limit that talk of Curry right now). It has to do with his overall ability+impact and the career he has had up to this point being one of the top 7 or so in history. I think people are trying to portray this as the case now though since so many rely on team accomplishments when ranking individuals.

Tony_Starks
06-07-2016, 02:37 PM
But the Western conference playoffs was apparently.

Even if you believe that he was trying to intimate that Magic basically had easy paths to his rings, when in reality he didn't.

Beating some of the toughest teams in history is impressive anyway you slice it.

The Cavs are getting a crack at one of them, after a TOTAL cakewalk to get there, and are getting embarrassed.

42-15-7
06-07-2016, 02:46 PM
Anyone debating whether this is LeBron's worst supporting cast needs to read this:

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/06/06/lebron-james-nba-finals-cavaliers-heat-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh

Short answer: no, not even close. (Two of his Miami teams were worse.)

twellner9
06-07-2016, 02:48 PM
What?

Between this forum and the larger forum I read consistently I haven't seen Kobe over Lebron in an all time poll for a couple years now. I have no doubt in LA Kobe is still considered the best but when it comes to "most people" I think you are off base.

Lebron being ranked that highly was not just projection, I am against that when ranking (see me arguing for Kobe 4 years ago and trying to limit that talk of Curry right now). It has to do with his overall ability+impact and the career he has had up to this point being one of the top 7 or so in history. I think people are trying to portray this as the case now though since so many rely on team accomplishments when ranking individuals.

I am with you on this. The only people that really consider Kobe better are Lakers fans. We need to stop this talk that Kobe, Jordan, or Magic would have "carried their teams to championships" and Lebron is just not good enough. Please. Every championship any of them won was with a loaded roster. If Lebron leaves the Cavs there's a good chance they don't even make the playoffs. Can't say that about the Laker or Bulls teams.

The biggest problem Lebron has is too much power. They need a real coach that can actually make adjustments and use players to their strengths. They are using Love and Kyrie completely wrong and not coaching them at all. No movement, and Kyrie has become the most useless "star" I've ever seen. Yet Curry doesn't even need to play and the Warriors win.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-07-2016, 02:54 PM
If they didn't have to beat one of the greatest dynasties in history Celtics, loaded Philly team with no Kareem, and the the Bad Boys Pistons to win those championships then what you just said would actually be relevant.

Lakers beat some of greatest teams ever assembled for those rings, back then the Finals weren't just a formality....

Its a different era. There is more parity nowadays. On the plus side 35 win teams do not make the playoffs anymore. The teams you mentioned were some of the all time best.

If GS wins this championship they should be acknowledged in some conversations. Do I think they are as good as the 90's Bulls, or 80's Celtics/Lakers? No but in the after Jordan era they are near the top with the Spurs, and Lakers. In the after Jordan era I would put the Shaq/Kobe Lakers above GS and the Spurs below GS.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:03 PM
I would love to hear an explanation of how this year for Lebron is so bad it actually takes away from what he has accomplished in the past?

You admitted you were pissed for some reason so maybe that's it, just would love to hear solid reasoning behind this (from an individual stand point for Lebron dropping). We have seen Curry play poorly, Durant play poorly, Wetbrook play poorly and now Lebron is to an extent as well yet only one of them appears to be dropping to some (despite him being the one not peaking). I just don't get how this season can take away what he has already accomplished.

Well first off, none of those guys you mentioned are anywhere near lebron in all time rankings, so of course they won't face the same scrutiny.

And yes I'm pissed because what the **** of a finals is this?? This man gave up in the third quarter. He spit in the face of his teammates last year by saying we ran out of talent, and now ur hand picked talent is back and what the **** are you doing? Giving up in a finals game in the 3rd quarter! I'm not saying he has to win, but Jesus man, have some damn pride. He's an absolute embarrassment right now. THIS is what he has to give the city of Cleveland? The same give up I lose mentality we saw him play with his last yr in Cleveland before leaving to Miami. What a loser. Far and way the mentally weakest superstar I have ever seen.

The mans psyche is made of glass. His ownership of losing is non existent. This is HIS team man, he got what he wanted, there's no excuse. He wants all the credit of being the coach but none of the heat. He's never respected his coaches yet expects to grow as a team player?

At the time of assembly he had one of the top up and coming young players in the league in Kyrie and a top pf in the league in love (many people were calling him THE best pf when in minny). He's got what was last year a solid 3 and d in shump, a picture perfect paint role player in TT, a center who dominated us one game and had an overall solid series against us last year in mozgov, a player who has played the best defense on curry I have seen for the past 4 years over any 2 game stretch in Delly, a big that can legitimately stretch the floor in frye, a top 3 6th man in jr, got a game better than anyone would have dreamed of from Jefferson.

And yes, I'm sticking to that paragraph, because put any of those players on the Warriors and that's how they would be described. Put the dubs players on the cavs and what would people say? Iggy's washed up, Barnes is a bust pick that never lived up to his potential, Green is undersized trying to play like a big, Bogut can only jump 4 inches in the air, varejao do I even have to say anything, Livingston is lucky to even still be playing, speights is the softest big in the league, etc etc. Its done man, the excuses train is done. There is NO excuse to give up in the 3rd quarter of a finals game. I can't ****in believe I saw that **** from an all time great. What a joke. What a sad joke for the city of Cleveland and I feel bad for them, they don't deserve this ****.

His mentality is so fragile. Step up and be a ****in leader instead of concerned with if his stat line is filled up or not. It's like I see this guy, game 1 quarter 1, puts together one of the best quarters I have ever seen by anyone in my life, and after that it's just a **** show.

My squad broke the record, most wins ALL TIME. EVER. In HISTORY. And I can't even properly enjoy it cuz this finals has just been an embarrassment. At least Portland every game was fun and competitive. The thunder ****in pushed us to the brink. And now..this? What a stupid finals. Lebron got the matchup he wanted, after all his guys are back, after all his back handed compliments about us, and this is what we get. **** him. He needs to get his **** together and give us some games worth watching. I don't care if it's a sweep, just make the games watchable.

His mentality is just so fragile, just to weak to be an all time anything. What a fraud. And I'm finally seeing now. I was on excuse train right there with everyone else, but now I see him for what he really is. He's a loser. Some players know how to win, and that's why we love them, but lebron is the exact opposite.

Whatever man, he needs to turn it around starting next game. It's back home, it's in front of his fans, if he gives up in front of his fans in the 3rd quarter, damn...he just better not

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:24 PM
You had him above Kobe ? Yikes


He hasn't passed Kobe as of yet. People just prematurely placed him there because of where they assumed his career would go, which actually hasn't worked out the way they had hoped.

Most people don't have Lebron ahead of Kobe yet.

You know what, for me, it was that first year in Miami. He FINALLY developed that killer inside of him, I finally got to see it come out, and I felt that was the thing Kobe had over lebron. Since I thought that was who was going to be from then on, I said ok, now I have to put him above Kobe. Watching him go vs Chicago and Boston those playoffs was absolutely a thing of beauty.

But that **** only last 2 years, maybe 2 and a half. And now it's back to glass mentality lebron.

People can say what they wanna say about Kobe and his hero ball, that boy went down swinging. Everytime. Even if clearly over matched, he'd go out with his motor on max and gas on empty. After his losses he would look in the mirror with disgust, not point his fingers at his teammates with disgust. Say what u wanna say about him, in this game you have to respect that. He DEMANDED that respect by his actions.

What I saw from lebron last game, I just can't believe it. He's going home now, if that dude gives up in front of his home fans, I'll never look past that, he'll just be the biggest loser ever. The saddest, most tragic story of possible greatness gone wrong in our generation.

Maybe I'm just caught up in the moment, but as far as right here right now, I can't believe I ever put him ahead of Kobe. I'm embarrassed that I actually did that

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:31 PM
People would rather be haters and trolls than enjoy watching one of the best players ever.

No, sorry, quite the opposite actually. Haters don't get mad, they get happy when a player plays like ****. Believe me I find nothing to be happy about with lebron right now.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:39 PM
Last year, the rox gave up against us in a playoff game, a single digit lead with almost 3 min left!! And I absolutely ripped the rox and harden for that, but u know what they came out the next game in Houston swinging. They won, but even if they lost they came out and punched us in the mouth, that's what mattered. Cavs better show some fight tomorrow night. If the rox could do it down 3-0 last year then the cavs can do it down 2-0 in the finals.

Us dubs fans joke around and call curry the soul taker, our squad just takes the other teams will and soul out of their body, and that's cool against a middle of the road team in the reg season. But seeing this **** in the playoffs, against players like harden and lebron, unacceptable. If he pulls that same **** next game then he needs to refund every cavs fan in that building for their ticket. And the money anyone spent on his jersey

Ok, now I'm done. It's out of me. Back to ur regularly scheduled program :)

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 03:45 PM
Well first off, none of those guys you mentioned are anywhere near lebron in all time rankings, so of course they won't face the same scrutiny.

They are all considered near him as the player he is today though. His entire career does not come down to how he played this season and even so he hasn't played worse than them. So if at their peaks those guys play as bad (or worse) than current James it should negatively affect their legacy in the same way right?

He is higher because he is far more accomplished both statistically and with awards but you can make similar arguments as below for the guys mentioned if you wanted to just use whatever possible to limit someone. Durant/Westy play poor late in game leading to never winning a ring and Curry needs such a stacked team around him to win as shown by his current performance and no FMVP last year. Very easy to just look at results and make claims like this in hindsight but that doesn't make it necessarily a truth given the context.

See really this tells me that you normally don't use a bad season to drop someone (probably because you can't take away what has already been accomplished). You are choosing however to create that standard with Lebron here for whatever reason though.


And yes I'm pissed because what the **** of a finals is this?? This man gave up in the third quarter. He spit in the face of his teammates last year by saying we ran out of talent, and now ur hand picked talent is back and what the **** are you doing? Giving up in a finals game in the 3rd quarter! I'm not saying he has to win, but Jesus man, have some damn pride. He's an absolute embarrassment right now. THIS is what he has to give the city of Cleveland? The same give up I lose mentality we saw him play with his last yr in Cleveland before leaving to Miami. What a loser. Far and way the mentally weakest superstar I have ever seen.

The mans psyche is made of glass. His ownership of losing is non existent. This is HIS team man, he got what he wanted, there's no excuse. He wants all the credit of being the coach but none of the heat. He's never respected his coaches yet expects to grow as a team player?

I agree he needs to push it to another level but this is a team game and Cleveland doesn't match up well with GS. It isn't just Lebron, he has actually been playing better defensively than last year. It is the team defense struggling and too much 1v1 from the cavs.

I agree Lebron needs to take over at a higher level (to be named best in the league especially) but this post screams that you are just searching for excuses to bump him down when that would not be the case with someone else. I get it since I have seen your posts lately but game 1 Lebron out performed Curry and still lost. It takes more than one player to decide a series and right now neither of them are the deciding factor. Almost none of what you said is an actual critique outside of his mentality for this series which I agree he needs to push to the next level. He has multiple finals MVP's, MVP's, some of the best elimination game stats out there, multiple games like Detroit or Boston high on all time lists etc. for examples of him playing elite and not shrinking. Dallas gets way overblown at this point given everything else he has done in his career. Just last year he put up 36, 9, 13 in the finals. I guess everyone who did less than that in the history of the nba must have really really shied away because that is extremely rare production/level of play.


At the time of assembly he had one of the top up and coming young players in the league in Kyrie and a top pf in the league in love (many people were calling him THE best pf when in minny). He's got what was last year a solid 3 and d in shump, a picture perfect paint role player in TT, a center who dominated us one game and had an overall solid series against us last year in mozgov, a player who has played the best defense on curry I have seen for the pet 4 years over any 2 game stretch in Delly, a big that can legitimately stretch the floor in frye, a top 3 6th man in jr, got a game better than anyone would have dreamed of from Jefferson.

And yes, I'm sticking to that paragraph, because put any of those players on the Warriors and that's how they would be described. Put the dubs players on the cavs and what would people say? Iggy's washed up, Barnes is a bust pick that never lived up to his potential, Green is undersized trying to play like a big, Bogut can only jump 4 inches in the air, varejao do I even have to say anything, Livingston is lucky to even still be playing, speights is the softest big in the league, etc etc. Its done man, the excuses train is done. There is NO excuse to give up in the 3rd quarter of a finals game. I can't ****in believe I saw that **** from an all time great. What a joke. What a sad joke for the city of Cleveland and I feel bad for them, they don't deserve this ****.

His mentality is so fragile. Step up and be a ****in leader instead of concerned with if his stat line is filled up or not. It's like I see this guy, game 1 quarter 1, puts together one of the best quarters I have ever seen by anyone in my life, and after that it's just a **** show.

My squad broke the record, most wins ALL TIME. EVER. In HISTORY. And I can't even properly enjoy it cuz this finals has just been an embarrassment. At least Portland every game was fun and competitive. The thunder ****in pushed us to the brink. And now..this? What a stupid finals. Lebron got the matchup he wanted, after all his guys are back, after all his back handed compliments about us, and this is what we get. **** him. He needs to get his **** together and give us some games worth watching. I don't care if it's a sweep, just make the games watchable.

His mentality is just so fragile, just to weak to be an all time anything. What a fraud. And I'm finally seeing now. I was on excuse train right there with everyone else, but now I see him for what he really is. He's a loser. Some players know how to win, and that's why we love them, but lebron is the exact opposite.

Whatever man, he needs to turn it around starting next game. It's back home, it's in front of his fans, if he gives up in front of his fans in the 3rd quarter, damn...he just better not

Again I do agree he needs to be more aggressive moving forward but for that to drop him down all time seems extreme. Yes it is an issue with him at times but people also blame him for trying to do too much and not playing team ball when he doesn't too (like that finals I just mentioned). He can't win. This year I think the thought was that he now has talent so he will play within the offense more and let everyone be involved. Unfortunately despite the offensive talent that didn't work at all and so I definitely agree he should have done more and needs to adjust going forward.

You have yet to give me anything really outside of his mentality (based on your opinion) and your own hurt feelings about a mix of things (probably the respect you feel Warriors deserve more than anything from what I can see). I am asking you to explain how this year has been so negative that it actually pushes him backwards?

Or are you saying that absolutely nothing has changed and you just view him differently as a player now for your own personal reasons, not his actual play this year? I think that could definitely be the case as bias does that to people and I have seen your other posts this playoffs. You used to be pretty good at being reasonable but calling him a loser, blaming him for not enjoying your teams season, swearing at him, calling him a fruad etc. seem to point to a new tone with you that I hadn't really seen

It's whatever I was just curious if you had real reasoning behind the drop but it clearly seems more personal which I don't care to argue about.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 03:58 PM
They are all considered near him as the player he is today though. His entire career does not come down to how he played this season and even so he hasn't played worse than them. So if at their peaks those guys play as bad (or worse) than current James it should negatively affect their legacy in the same way right?

He is higher because he is far more accomplished both statistically and with awards but you can make similar arguments as below for the guys mentioned if you wanted to just use whatever possible to limit someone. Durant/Westy play poor late in game leading to never winning a ring and Curry needs such a stacked team around him to win as shown by his current performance and no FMVP last year. Very easy to just look at results and make claims like this in hindsight but that doesn't make it necessarily a truth given the context.

See really this tells me that you normally don't use a bad season to drop someone (probably because you can't take away what has already been accomplished). You are choosing however to create that standard with Lebron here for whatever reason though.



I agree he needs to push it to another level but this is a team game and Cleveland doesn't match up well with GS. It isn't just Lebron, he has actually been playing better defensively than last year. It is the team defense struggling and too much 1v1 from the cavs.

I agree Lebron needs to take over at a higher level (to be named best in the league especially) but this post screams that you are just searching for excuses to bump him down when that would not be the case with someone else. I get it since I have seen your posts lately but game 1 Lebron out performed Curry and still lost. It takes more than one player to decide a series and right now neither of them are the deciding factor. Almost none of what you said is an actual critique outside of his mentality for this series which I agree he needs to push to the next level. He has multiple finals MVP's, MVP's, some of the best elimination game stats out there, multiple games like Detroit or Boston high on all time lists etc. for examples of him playing elite and not shrinking. Dallas gets way overblown at this point given everything else he has done in his career. Just last year he put up 36, 9, 13 in the finals. I guess everyone who did less than that in the history of the nba must have really really shied away because that is extremely rare production/level of play.



Again I do agree he needs to be more aggressive moving forward but for that to drop him down all time seems extreme. Yes it is an issue with him at times but people also blame him for trying to do too much and not playing team ball when he doesn't too (like that finals I just mentioned). He can't win. This year I think the thought was that he now has talent so he will play within the offense more and let everyone be involved. Unfortunately despite the offensive talent that didn't work at all and so I definitely agree he should have done more and needs to adjust going forward.

You have yet to give me anything really outside of his mentality (based on your opinion) and your own hurt feelings about a mix of things (probably the respect you feel Warriors deserve more than anything from what I can see). I am asking you to explain how this year has been so negative that it actually pushes him backwards?

Or are you saying that absolutely nothing has changed and you just view him differently as a player now for your own personal reasons, not his actual play this year? I think that could definitely be the case as bias does that to people and I have seen your other posts this playoffs. You used to be pretty good at being reasonable but calling him a loser, blaming him for not enjoying your teams season, swearing at him, calling him a fruad etc. seem to point to a new tone with you that I hadn't really seen

It's whatever I was just curious if you had real reasoning behind the drop but it clearly seems more personal which I don't care to argue about.

No, ur right, it's all about his mentality. I just can't justify ranking a player that high with that weak a mentality.

And ur also right, I do feel the Warriors deserve more respect than that. This is the FINALS. This is for a ring. If ur gonna give up in the 3rd quarter of a game, it's like just go home. Just go to the locker room, put ur jeans on, beat the traffic and drive back home. That's disrespectful to us. Waving the white flag with a whole quarter left, I'm sorry, any superstar that does that doesn't belong on the same court as us. Go back to the black top. Can someone please call the Spurs up, because Duncan even at 40 would never do that.

Look, when all said and done, I don't know if it's actually gonna drop him on my all time list, all I know is right now I'm not happy with him. At all. All nba fans deserve better

I told u I had a rant in me! lol

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 04:16 PM
No, ur right, it's all about his mentality. I just can't justify ranking a player that high with that weak a mentality.

And ur also right, I do feel the Warriors deserve more respect than that. This is the FINALS. This is for a ring. If ur gonna give up in the 3rd quarter of a game, it's like just go home. Just go to the locker room, put ur jeans on, beat the traffic and drive back home. That's disrespectful to us. Waving the white flag with a whole quarter left, I'm sorry, any superstar that does that doesn't belong on the same court as us. Go back to the black top. Can someone please call the Spurs up, because Duncan even at 40 would never do that.

Ya, I can't argue you just changing your mind on that after the fact. I think you are letting the fueds get to you this post season and I honestly am not trying to be a dick. We all get caught up in it and ur team is definitely going to be getting heat moving forward, right now a lot of it is with Lebron fans/homers probably.

Again if he was so weak mentally why does he have some of the all time great performances like Detroit ending or Boston game 6? If you look at all time lists of playoffs games those show up and he is usually ranked behind only a couple greats in that sense. For finals we even have a game 7 vs. the Spurs up there on lists. When you look at his elimination game play and production over his career it matches up with almost everyone outside of maybe MJ. Looking at his clutch shooting in the playoffs over his career it is actually up there/above Kobe who you mentioned as having that killer mentality. I could go on but I think people focus too much on one series or team results when using that as their reason is where I am going, ignoring the above. I agree that when things go bad he can defer too much and it has happened a couple times in his career where it legitimiately cost his team, like 2011. Just like someone with a shooting mentality can be labeled a chucker, like Kobe for 04. All of these guys have flaws and Lebrons is that his style of play is making the right play (to him), and when sometimes he needs to just say screw it and be more aggressive he has instead continued to defer.

That last part is on the entire team not just him. If he had teammates playing like the surrounding Warriors cast it wouldn't be an issue. If he had Westbrook (like those 3 thunder wins) and a frontcourt dominating he wouldn't be asked to do as much either. He needs to step up his game because his team clearly needs it but again this is not solely on him. Jordan got swept and then lost in 5 back to back years before his team was as talented/could match up with the teams he was facing. This is a team game, one day people might realize that.

EDIT (added part):



Look, when all said and done, I don't know if it's actually gonna drop him on my all time list, all I know is right now I'm not happy with him. At all. All nba fans deserve better

I told u I had a rant in me! lol

Lol that is actually what I was getting at to an extent. That seemed like a right now statement in the heat of everything but I wanted to see if there was other, actual, reasoning behind it. I agree that I want this series to be better but I have a hard time seeing this Cavs team take more than a home game with the way they are playing collectively. You guys are just a really bad matchup for them but hopefully he tries to impose his will more and the others start playing a little better too.

Bigbadmoffo
06-07-2016, 04:27 PM
Why are excuses always being made on LeBron's behalf? Serena Williams just lost the French Open. I don't recall anyone making excuses for her. Not a team sport, alright. Well, OKC lost this year after being up 3-1. Any excuses made for them? Every year we get all these think pieces about how "LeBron is really awesome and it's totally not his fault that he can't win." Why is this? This is not asked facetiously; I would like to hear an answer if anyone has one.

twellner9
06-07-2016, 04:34 PM
Why are excuses always being made on LeBron's behalf? Serena Williams just lost the French Open. I don't recall anyone making excuses for her. Not a team sport, alright. Well, OKC lost this year after being up 3-1. Any excuses made for them? Every year we get all these think pieces about how "LeBron is really awesome and it's totally not his fault that he can't win." Why is this? This is not asked facetiously; I would like to hear an answer if anyone has one.

I think its because he does win. He wins year in and year out, making it to the finals over and over (regardless of east vs west). I mean even if you claim he only wins because the east is weak, he is still good enough that he can beat the rest of the east regardless of which team he's on every year. Being that good in a conference every year is amazing. He has played like garbage so far, agreed. But no worse that Durant did in the Western Conference Finals. And he doesn't deserve nearly all the blame. Kyrie can't be found. And the Cavs bench is old as hell.

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 04:40 PM
Why are excuses always being made on LeBron's behalf? Serena Williams just lost the French Open. I don't recall anyone making excuses for her. Not a team sport, alright. Well, OKC lost this year after being up 3-1. Any excuses made for them? Every year we get all these think pieces about how "LeBron is really awesome and it's totally not his fault that he can't win." Why is this? This is not asked facetiously; I would like to hear an answer if anyone has one.

It depends what you mean by excuses? If before the series someone like myself said they believed GS was more talented or the Cavs lacked defense they got labeled pre finals (even when it looked like OKC would win) as making excuses. Sometimes what some people consider excuses are actually just looking at the context of situations. My stance has not changed and it was completely based off the teams at hand yet it is labeled by some as an excuse. Even though I also maintained I thought they would beat OKC this is now me only making excuses for Lebron.

Why did Jordan lose to the Celtics/Pistons early in his career? Dont give me any "excuses" about teammates or coaching or the teams he was going up against. Seems pretty unreasonable yet that is the look some want us to take with Lebron. Is it that he was too young? Well then I say Lebron has too many miles at this point to take over like some expect. We can go all day but basically when someone loses anytime someone tries to bring up context surrounding the situation someone will just call it excuses.

So I am wondering what type of excuses are you talking about? Saying he is playing like the goat right now or even that he has 0 blame would be wrong. He needs to assert himself more because his team clearly is not capable of playing this way and winning. They need to have the best player in the world take over, unfortunately I no longer think it is Lebron. Either way he does need to take over but in no way is pointing out his teammates poor level of play not a reality (Kyrie has been horrible, love non existent too and both liabilities on the other end).

Bigbadmoffo
06-07-2016, 04:41 PM
I think its because he does win. He wins year in and year out, making it to the finals over and over (regardless of east vs west). I mean even if you claim he only wins because the east is weak, he is still good enough that he can beat the rest of the east regardless of which team he's on every year. Being that good in a conference every year is amazing. He has played like garbage so far, agreed. But no worse that Durant did in the Western Conference Finals. And he doesn't deserve nearly all the blame. Kyrie can't be found. And the Cavs bench is old as hell.

So who does he need to win? Maybe Durant, Chris paul and Anthony Davis? If he lost with those guys but made it to the finals would you still feel the same? I'm a Raptors fan and my team would have been a first round sweep in the west so 100 percent the weak east has on impact. I you put Durant or Curry on the cavs/Heat team and stick Lebron in the West i know for a fact they would have made the finals every year. This guy is an amazing individual player with great stats but he hurts his team mentally as they don't wanna play for him.

twellner9
06-07-2016, 04:49 PM
So who does he need to win? Maybe Durant, Chris paul and Anthony Davis? If he lost with those guys but made it to the finals would you still feel the same? I'm a Raptors fan and my team would have been a first round sweep in the west so 100 percent the weak east has on impact. I you put Durant or Curry on the cavs/Heat team and stick Lebron in the West i know for a fact they would have made the finals every year. This guy is an amazing individual player with great stats but he hurts his team mentally as they don't wanna play for him.

You don't think Toronto could have handled Dallas, Houston, or Portland? Even the Clips with the Injuries? What Lebron needs is to stop trying to pair with all stars and start pairing with a team of players. What the Warriors or Thunder have is role players that have a major impact. Who's the best bench player on the Cavs or Heat teams? Jefferson? Awful bench and no coaching is the problem. Paying too much to get 3 good players leaving no room for role players is the problem.

Put Durant in the East without Lebron they may make the finals 2 out of the 4 years Lebron did. Wade and Bosh were almost never healthy. Durant on the Cavs also a maybe (not the 2007 Cavs though). Curry I see no chance he could carry a team solo. He is in large part a product of a system.

Tony_Starks
06-07-2016, 04:54 PM
You don't think Toronto could have handled Dallas, Houston, or Portland? Even the Clips with the Injuries? What Lebron needs is to stop trying to pair with all stars and start pairing with a team of players. What the Warriors or Thunder have is role players that have a major impact. Who's the best bench player on the Cavs or Heat teams? Jefferson? Awful bench and no coaching is the problem. Paying too much to get 3 good players leaving no room for role players is the problem.

Put Durant in the East without Lebron they may make the finals 2 out of the 4 years Lebron did. Wade and Bosh were almost never healthy. Durant on the Cavs also a maybe (not the 2007 Cavs though). Curry I see no chance he could carry a team solo. He is in large part a product of a system.


The reason GS role players look so good is that they share the ball. Their best player Steph, even when he is being a decoy, is still moving the Rock and getting the hockey assist.

Lebrons teams are always predicated on him dominating the ball. Whatever role players you surround him with typically get less productive because they rely on him to feed them the ball.

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 05:02 PM
The reason GS role players look so good is that they share the ball. Their best player Steph, even when he is being a decoy, is still moving the Rock and getting the hockey assist.

Lebrons teams are always predicated on him dominating the ball. Whatever role players you surround him with typically get less productive because they rely on him to feed them the ball.

It is funny you say that because currently the biggest knock on Lebron is that he isn't dominating enough, let alone too much. Like to the level that a poster above is considering lowering him on his all time list due to his lack of aggressiveness.

Role players generally have improved next to Lebron over his career due to the easy shots he gets them. It is the star players that have been used to being the focus of the offense that see a drop off in production but this is usually raw numbers and not always efficiency (mixed).

twellner9
06-07-2016, 05:02 PM
The reason GS role players look so good is that they share the ball. Their best player Steph, even when he is being a decoy, is still moving the Rock and getting the hockey assist.

Lebrons teams are always predicated on him dominating the ball. Whatever role players you surround him with typically get less productive because they rely on him to feed them the ball.

Agreed. They share the ball. Lebron does that too though. Kyrie is the one that doesn't share. Coaching is the reason they never run any plays. You can't blame a player for the offensive scheme.

I honestly think you could argue Thompson over Curry because of his stellar defense. The warriors have put together a roster that the rest of the league wasn't ready for. That's why they are great. Its bigs that are athletic but can still defend the post making them impossible to defend. The fact that everyone can hit jumpers prevents any double teams. The also have the best passing big man in the game in Bogut. The roster they have is a piece of art.

ink
06-07-2016, 05:03 PM
This is one of my cornerstone arguments about why Magic is a hair better than MJ as GOAT. People implicitly give MJ credit for NOT making the finals in any of the years when he didn't win a title. Not only did Magic play much tougher teams in order to win his rings, but maybe his greatest success was dragging the Lakers to the finals to actually face MJ's Bulls, when that was supposed to be the Blazers' year. (If you're old enough you'll remember that Drexler's team was loaded AND seasoned, while Magic was driving a completely different roster from the Showtime era.)

It matters how many rings you win, but it also matters how many times you get there, which is why nobody will ever touch Russell. Not taking anything away from MJ, but just looking at the finals doesn't tell the whole story.

Great post. I also think Magic is the best ever, mainly because his version of the game is sustainable and exemplifies the great passing approach we've seen reborn with the Spurs and Warriors.

To the OP ... a finals loss doesn't do anything to Lebron's ranking. He's still a great player, it's just that he's one of the crappiest GMs in the league. ;)

ink
06-07-2016, 05:05 PM
The reason GS role players look so good is that they share the ball. Their best player Steph, even when he is being a decoy, is still moving the Rock and getting the hockey assist.

Lebrons teams are always predicated on him dominating the ball. Whatever role players you surround him with typically get less productive because they rely on him to feed them the ball.

Exactly. On GSW they all share the ball; on the Cavs Lebron shares the ball. All roads lead to and from him. There's a huge difference in the way the ball is distributed.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 05:05 PM
Great post. I also think Magic is the best ever, mainly because his version of the game is sustainable and exemplifies the great passing approach we've seen reborn with the Spurs and Warriors.

To the OP ... a finals loss doesn't do anything to Lebron's ranking. He's still a great player, it's just that he's one of the crappiest GMs in the league. ;)

I kinda thought it was more due to dominance is what makes the GOAT. Something Jordan did better

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 05:06 PM
Exactly. On GSW they all share the ball; on the Cavs Lebron shares the ball. All roads lead to him. There's a huge difference in the way the ball is distributed.

Yep. And this style underutilizes other star players, yet makes role players better.

ink
06-07-2016, 05:07 PM
I kinda thought it was more due to dominance is what makes the GOAT. Something Jordan did better

IMHO dominance in a team sport is kinda missing the point. The very best to me are the ones, like Duncan, who are perfectly placed at all times to make the team better.

I love MJ but I think his dominance was actually very bad for the game, turning a generation into 1on5 players.

ink
06-07-2016, 05:09 PM
Yep. And this style underutilizes other star players, yet makes role players better.

It's one of those mysteries: how is it so hard to build around a talent like Lebron's? He might be the most naturally gifted athlete in NBA history (apologies to Wilt, MJ, and Shaq).

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 05:17 PM
IMHO dominance in a team sport is kinda missing the point. The very best to me are the ones, like Duncan, who are perfectly placed at all times to make the team better.

I love MJ but I think his dominance was actually very bad for the game, turning a generation into 1on5 players.

well, not his fault he was one of the lone exceptions that could do this and win. Curry is changing our kids into players who want to hoist 26 footers, is that good?

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 05:18 PM
It's one of those mysteries: how is it so hard to build around a talent like Lebron's? He might be the most naturally gifted athlete in NBA history (apologies to Wilt, MJ, and Shaq).

Yep. I think the more years go by, we see the only way to build around LeBron is shooters, defenders, and rebounders, and they all need to show up and he needs to dominate every game. Unfortunately, that puts a huge amount of pressure on him, and also ups the chances of failure, to his own fault.

ink
06-07-2016, 05:21 PM
Yep. I think the more years go by, we see the only way to build around LeBron is shooters, defenders, and rebounders, and they all need to show up and he needs to dominate every game. Unfortunately, that puts a huge amount of pressure on him, and also ups the chances of failure, to his own fault.

Definitely agree. (btw, not to derail the thread, but I'm envious of the TWolves future. They're going to be good).

ink
06-07-2016, 05:24 PM
well, not his fault he was one of the lone exceptions that could do this and win. Curry is changing our kids into players who want to hoist 26 footers, is that good?

You have a point there, lol. But I was thinking of the team approach. I like Curry alright but I like the team more.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2016, 05:26 PM
Definitely agree. (btw, not to derail the thread, but I'm envious of the TWolves future. They're going to be good).

we are as pumped as a fan base as we have ever been dude. Trust me.

I have come to the realization that LeBron is probably the one guy I would choose to lift a team of crap to the highest point it can reach. But I also think he limits other star players on how great they can be next to him. I know every superstar does that to some point, but not to the degree we have seen LeBron do it. He has moments where he lifts teams to achievements few could have done (see his 2012 playoff run, or Cavs 60 win teams as an example, or his close out of Detroit single handedly). But he is just such a ball dominator, and great players basically turn into glorified role players alongside him. That is just stress ball right there, and can cause frustrations.

koreancabbage
06-07-2016, 05:29 PM
what excuses are there? the Warriors are a superior team. If Lebron fans are coming up with excuses, how can you blame them? Its not like you guys thought Cleveland had a chance to begin with? If Cleveland was the favorite to win, and Lebron loses - that would be worse. lol

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 05:29 PM
It's one of those mysteries: how is it so hard to build around a talent like Lebron's? He might be the most naturally gifted athlete in NBA history (apologies to Wilt, MJ, and Shaq).

I'm not so sure it is that hard, it has just been done in the wrong way in Cleveland (both times). We know the first Cleveland stint and I think that lack of talent lead to Lebron searching to be paired with the wrong type of casts. He needs to find those teams where there is a balance between the skill sets that covers both ends of the court.

Miami was pretty close actually as both Wade/Bosh were capable of picking up other areas of their game even when they weren't the main option. The issue is just how quick Wade dropped off and the lack of support from the players around them as that happened (thinking like 13/14). The first year Lebron choked and they were starting bibby/anthony I think but other than that if the team had stayed healthy and continued placing decent role players like Battier/Allen etc. it would have been excellent for many years. I think if he wanted to win staying there might have been the best choice but I personally am glad he went back to Cleveland. Edit: Just to add to my point about this still working they did win 50% of the titles when together despite the injuries/decline. I think this team was built well around him even if it was a little top/talent heavy instead of seeming like a good fit.

In Cleveland however (he) chose a me first player like Kyrie and Klove to pair with which to me is doubling up on offense (and not necessarily great set up for ball movement) and completely ignoring defensive help which at this point is necessary. To me the best thing they can do is trade one of those stars for role players who provide many attributes, not just offense. Looking at the great teams in history we see many teams who have been built well not only with start power but having specific skills to surround a creator/scorer with. Whether it be Mchale to take matchups for Bird, Pippen/Rodman to do dirty work/provide defense for Jordan, Green/Klay to alleviate the offensive pressure on Curry and provide defense to keep him fresh etc etc. Cleveland just doesn't have that type of surrounding talent, they have a iso scorer and a pf who was used to having the team run through him. I think Love with rebounding+shooting from the 4+passing adds more than Irving but still it is just such a lack of defense and other intangibles there that supporting players normally bring. Lebron just gets blinded by getting talent for his team when in reality he needs a mix of the talent he has now and the fit he had before. I think this is why they didn't get tons better when Kyrie came back, he doesn't add to the rest of the group like someone with a different skill set would.

I think this Cavs team still can make it a step higher than they are now but it would take trading Kyrie and/or Love to get one other elite scorer and then surrounding them with fit, specifically defense+passing since they have shooting.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 05:40 PM
Ya, I can't argue you just changing your mind on that after the fact. I think you are letting the fueds get to you this post season and I honestly am not trying to be a dick. We all get caught up in it and ur team is definitely going to be getting heat moving forward, right now a lot of it is with Lebron fans/homers probably.

Again if he was so weak mentally why does he have some of the all time great performances like Detroit ending or Boston game 6? If you look at all time lists of playoffs games those show up and he is usually ranked behind only a couple greats in that sense. For finals we even have a game 7 vs. the Spurs up there on lists. When you look at his elimination game play and production over his career it matches up with almost everyone outside of maybe MJ. Looking at his clutch shooting in the playoffs over his career it is actually up there/above Kobe who you mentioned as having that killer mentality. I could go on but I think people focus too much on one series or team results when using that as their reason is where I am going, ignoring the above. I agree that when things go bad he can defer too much and it has happened a couple times in his career where it legitimiately cost his team, like 2011. Just like someone with a shooting mentality can be labeled a chucker, like Kobe for 04. All of these guys have flaws and Lebrons is that his style of play is making the right play (to him), and when sometimes he needs to just say screw it and be more aggressive he has instead continued to defer.

That last part is on the entire team not just him. If he had teammates playing like the surrounding Warriors cast it wouldn't be an issue. If he had Westbrook (like those 3 thunder wins) and a frontcourt dominating he wouldn't be asked to do as much either. He needs to step up his game because his team clearly needs it but again this is not solely on him. Jordan got swept and then lost in 5 back to back years before his team was as talented/could match up with the teams he was facing. This is a team game, one day people might realize that.

EDIT (added part):



Lol that is actually what I was getting at to an extent. That seemed like a right now statement in the heat of everything but I wanted to see if there was other, actual, reasoning behind it. I agree that I want this series to be better but I have a hard time seeing this Cavs team take more than a home game with the way they are playing collectively. You guys are just a really bad matchup for them but hopefully he tries to impose his will more and the others start playing a little better too.

Oh, it has nothing to do with any feud, trust me, I very much enjoy good basketball and good players, just his playoffs I'm a new fan of Aminu and Adams, obviously already been a fan of lillard, KD, westy.

I'm just disappointed in lebron. THIS year there is no bad team excuse, he got to have a huge hand in creating his situation, getting his "big 3", effect on coaching situation, he has solid role players around him. This team isn't trash, regardless of how weak the east is, "trash" teams don't start 10-0 in he playoffs.

Yes, his guys aren't playing well right now this series, but given how much of this current squads formation was in his hands, it's time for him to step up as a leader. If his guys aren't performing, well fair or not fair, I put that on him. He wanted to be a leader, a legend, he wanted this squad to play with, so here he goes now, it's up to him. Well, I don't want them to be TOO good, lol, I still want that trophy right here in Cali!

This whole situation is just making me look at him differently. He gave up, he gave up with more than a quarter left in a finals game! That's insane, that pissed me off more than anything. If they lose by 30 but he is going 100% doing everything be can, even if it's brick after brick, that's still better than giving up. Even if u give up and lose by 5, that's worse than giving it everything and losing by 20. And it's like I feel like I could just see him mentally figuring out his scapegoats, I'm just getting sick of that.

He gave up on the cavs once before in 2010, he then calls his teammate that gave everything they got "running out of talent", underhanded jabs toward love, embarrassing his home team city on national tv, backhanded compliments to Warriors throughout this whole year, I'm just thinking back and adding it all up, and I'm just looking at him different. He wants to win, but he doesn't want to have to fight for it. He wants it on a silver platter served to him. That's what I'm seeing. He was only willing to fight for a couple years in Miami. He's just weak. It's not about his performance, it's just him as a person, I feel like I've been fooled into thinking he could possibly be in those top tier all time discussions.

We'll see what happens. His next game could just make me take all that back, I don't know, but seeing a guy that's given up, wow, that don't sit with me well at all. It's not even about his X's and O's game, it's just about what he brings to the table as a leader that's willing to fight.

I like lebron, I really do, but I just lost so much respect for him after seeing him give up with no fight. THATS what I find disrespectful as a Warriors fan. People hating on us, or saying we're lucky, or deserve an asterisk by our title, that stuff is whatever. But for a superstar to stop playing on the court and give up with no fight, man, I find that hella disrespectful. I'm not into all this hater homer crap.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 05:54 PM
It is funny you say that because currently the biggest knock on Lebron is that he isn't dominating enough, let alone too much. Like to the level that a poster above is considering lowering him on his all time list due to his lack of aggressiveness.

Role players generally have improved next to Lebron over his career due to the easy shots he gets them. It is the star players that have been used to being the focus of the offense that see a drop off in production but this is usually raw numbers and not always efficiency (mixed).

No, it wasn't his lack of aggressiveness, my rant is based off of late 3rd and entire 4th quarter of game 2. He gave up in a finals. No pride, in himself, his team, his city. I don't like that **** at all. He just looks like such a loser in my eyes now. It's only game 2, even if the game was done, go out there, establish some rhythm for your guys, try some new looks see if something works, do something to go into game 3 with something.

Don't just look like a beaten man that has no answer so doesn't care anymore. I hope we somehow acquire lebron this offseason and then only play him in garbage time! Teach that guy a damn lesson in humility. And believe me, the next team to get him after that would be thanking us every day

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 06:04 PM
Oh, it has nothing to do with any feud, trust me, I very much enjoy good basketball and good players, just his playoffs I'm a new fan of Aminu and Adams, obviously already been a fan of lillard, KD, westy.

I'm just disappointed in lebron. THIS year there is no bad team excuse, he got to have a huge hand in creating his situation, getting his "big 3", effect on coaching situation, he has solid role players around him. This team isn't trash, regardless of how weak the east is, "trash" teams don't start 10-0 in he playoffs.

Yes, his guys aren't playing well right now this series, but given how much of this current squads formation was in his hands, it's time for him to step up as a leader. If his guys aren't performing, well fair or not fair, I put that on him. He wanted to be a leader, a legend, he wanted this squad to play with, so here he goes now, it's up to him. Well, I don't want them to be TOO good, lol, I still want that trophy right here in Cali!

This squad matches up horribly with you guys though. Look at what Ibaka/Adams did last series defensively to you guys (especially Green) and now against the Cavs Green and others are going off. That isn't on Lebron/Durant/Westbrook alone to guard everyone. Lebron didn't have Westbrook dominating some games for him like Durant did either but somehow it again is his own fault. Again this just seems personal due to it being Lebron.

Durant didn't step up in that series and Lebron hasn't yet in 2 games so far yet this topic of dropping down is only brought up for one. It is weird because it really isn't brought up that a player will drop down all time later in their career but it is common for this type of stuff with Lebron and people who really dislike him.


This whole situation is just making me look at him differently. He gave up, he gave up with more than a quarter left in a finals game! That's insane, that pissed me off more than anything. If they lose by 30 but he is going 100% doing everything be can, even if it's brick after brick, that's still better than giving up. Even if u give up and lose by 5, that's worse than giving it everything and losing by 20. And it's like I feel like I could just see him mentally figuring out his scapegoats, I'm just getting sick of that.

He gave up on the cavs once before in 2010, he then calls his teammate that gave everything they got "running out of talent", underhanded jabs toward love, embarrassing his home team city on national tv, backhanded compliments to Warriors throughout this whole year, I'm just thinking back and adding it all up, and I'm just looking at him different. He wants to win, but he doesn't want to have to fight for it. He wants it on a silver platter served to him. That's what I'm seeing. He was only willing to fight for a couple years in Miami. He's just weak. It's not about his performance, it's just him as a person, I feel like I've been fooled into thinking he could possibly be in those top tier all time discussions.

We'll see what happens. His next game could just make me take all that back, I don't know, but seeing a guy that's given up, wow, that don't sit with me well at all. It's not even about his X's and O's game, it's just about what he brings to the table as a leader that's willing to fight.

I like lebron, I really do, but I just lost so much respect for him after seeing him give up with no fight. THATS what I find disrespectful as a Warriors fan. People hating on us, or saying we're lucky, or deserve an asterisk by our title, that stuff is whatever. But for a superstar to stop playing on the court and give up with no fight, man, I find that hella disrespectful. I'm not into all this hater homer crap.

Yup and again this is all stuff that hasn't changed yet you are just changing your personal thought on it which like I said I am not interested in talking about if it comes down to your opinion on mentality. That 3rd quarter wasn't great but it wasn't enough for me to judge his entire career on lol, that's actually insane especially in a blow out. I gave real examples to counter this idea as well, most players have ups and downs in their career. I can't change your mind about how you perceive him fighting for it over his career (despite my examples). I can't make you think he isn't a loser. I can't make you think he is not weak. It is just useless to argue with someone who is changing their mind about a player based on their opinion of him as a person, not how they played.

I get that something has changed with you and have my own opinions on what it is based on the posts I've seen this playoffs. Again though what we both have is opinion so it won't go anywhere. This stuff above isn't worth arguing because even you admit it comes down to simply seeing him differently as a person. Maybe tomorrow that changes for you and he moves back up but that isn't how I like to discuss basketball lol, to me the rank is consistent based on play/ability/career, not my randomly changing perception of you them as a person.

mngopher35
06-07-2016, 06:12 PM
No, it wasn't his lack of aggressiveness, my rant is based off of late 3rd and entire 4th quarter of game 2. He gave up in a finals. No pride, in himself, his team, his city. I don't like that **** at all. He just looks like such a loser in my eyes now. It's only game 2, even if the game was done, go out there, establish some rhythm for your guys, try some new looks see if something works, do something to go into game 3 with something.

Don't just look like a beaten man that has no answer so doesn't care anymore. I hope we somehow acquire lebron this offseason and then only play him in garbage time! Teach that guy a damn lesson in humility. And believe me, the next team to get him after that would be thanking us every day

Lol no one played out that game it was a 30 point blowout by like 2 minutes into the 4th. He played through the 3rd and by the time he even got 2 minutes rest it was out of reach already. I have no idea what your point is but now it seems to be getting more ridiculous.

You clearly do seem to have an issue with him but anyways we won't agree if this where you are at. He needs to play better but he absolutely should not have come back to play garbage time when there is still time in this series. That would have actually gotten him hate for stat padding. He needs to be more aggressive but sitting out once the game was out of reach was a smart move.

WestCoastSportz
06-07-2016, 06:31 PM
Here is my take on Lebron and his failure in Cleveland and it may ring true with other players in the league as well, but these days, its rare that $20+ million dollar player's team is going to succeed and what success they do have isn't going to last long. Because in a cap controlled league, its imperative to spend that money right and get the right balance to a roster and thats hard to do when you have 1 player taking up 35% of the cap. Look at what the Knicks have done with Carmelo Anthony. The Lakers failing to be able to sign key players because of Kobe. His championship years with Miami came with taking a big pay cut in which he signed for $15M a year to accomodate them signing Chris Bosh to the same amount. Then you look at the Warriors

Warriors 2015-16 Starter Salaries

Stephen Curry - $11.4M
Klay Thompson - $15.5M
Draymond Green - $14.6M
Andrew Bogut - $12M
Harrison Barnes - $3.8M

Key Bench Players

Andre Iguodala - $11.7M
Shaun Livingston - $5.5M

Thats a team that bought in. Curry could have easily made much more money. So could Thompson and Green. But they understand its a team and they'd take $5M a year less to win a championship. But there are guys out there that just want to get paid and get theirs. If Lebron James wants to truly bring a title to Cleveland, he can't sign for more than $25M a year. The guys makes enough money from all his endorsements which is around $45M a year. But hey. If he wants to make $70M a year and not win a title, thats all fine and dandy by me. Its not my decision to make. But if he made $60M a year instead, he may just bring that title to a small market team like the Cavaliers.

My point is, Lebron is a great player, but not even Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant did it on their own. They all needed help from guys like Pippen, Rodman or Shaq. They all did with depth. Those Bulls championship teams had Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr coming off the bench.

So Lebron will be a top 10 player in my book no matter how many rings he walks away with.

flea
06-07-2016, 06:35 PM
LMAO this is getting ridiculous. Another year, another round of excuses for Lebron. We've got to just realize that some people just won't admit he's a flawed player ever. It doesn't matter what happens - they've been sold "King James: Most Dominant Ever" and if reality doesn't jive with the product they bought then reality is lying.

This is not an unusual phenomenon in our culture nowadays - we live in the age where boys can be girls, white people can be black people, wars can be about spreading freedom, public funds can be private insurance policies for banks, freedom of speech can be freedom from speech, and social disruption can be about having too much freedom. None of this makes sense to anyone - that is why mental illness rates have spiraled out of control in recent years.

The problem isn't in the minds of people, it's in the dilapidated collective consciousness and it's because people are all too willing to believe in outright lies.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2016, 06:51 PM
LMAO this is getting ridiculous. Another year, another round of excuses for Lebron. We've got to just realize that some people just won't admit he's a flawed player ever. It doesn't matter what happens - they've been sold "King James: Most Dominant Ever" and if reality doesn't jive with the product they bought then reality is lying.

This is not an unusual phenomenon in our culture nowadays - we live in the age where boys can be girls, white people can be black people, wars can be about spreading freedom, public funds can be private insurance policies for banks, freedom of speech can be freedom from speech, and social disruption can be about having too much freedom. None of this makes sense to anyone - that is why mental illness rates have spiraled out of control in recent years.

The problem isn't in the minds of people, it's in the dilapidated collective consciousness and it's because people are all too willing to believe in outright lies.

:pity: you have got to be kidding me right?

what is rediculous is the same 10 people in here constantly saying this same crap over and over just to get a reaction out of the other side and vice versa... How is it an excuse when the other team is just flat out better???????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????

Personally I think the cavs quit last game... I think james is a medicore to bad shooter and I think he is mentally soft and gets in his own head and loses games before he steps on to the court because of the pressure he has been under from day 1/year 1/year after year.... This is james hand picked team and if it goes down it is on him but the fact remains is the warriors are just a better team... Lebron is a top 3 most dominant player every and a top 7 player ever in most peoples minds.... people like you are just on here constantly bashing for no other reason than to hate and its just becoming sickening. We get it you hate lebron and so do the 10 others... we wont change your mind and you wont change others mind so why do we always have to continue down this path...

excuses yadayadayada
weak east yadayadayada
kobe has 5 rings yada yada yada
rings matter more than anything doh yadayadayada
he is better off losing in the first round than losing in the finals yadayadayada


my god people.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2016, 06:53 PM
Durant has 0 championships and lost to james in the finals.... had a 3-1 lead on the warriors.... literally choked the series away and people talked **** about him for one night.. Lebron gets this **** day in and day out year in and year out win or lose.... like honestly did he **** your mothers or something? I hate draymond green but it doesnt come close to the sick insane hate some of you people have for this dude

ewing
06-07-2016, 07:15 PM
Durant has 0 championships and lost to james in the finals.... had a 3-1 lead on the warriors.... literally choked the series away and people talked **** about him for one night.. Lebron gets this **** day in and day out year in and year out win or lose.... like honestly did he **** your mothers or something? I hate draymond green but it doesnt come close to the sick insane hate some of you people have for this dude

you called the guy a soft, quitter, with a no jump shot and called him top 3 to 7 all time in the next sentence. its cant be both. KD doesn't get the same hate cause he doesn't get the same BS.

nastynice
06-07-2016, 07:18 PM
Here is my take on Lebron and his failure in Cleveland and it may ring true with other players in the league as well, but these days, its rare that $20+ million dollar player's team is going to succeed and what success they do have isn't going to last long. Because in a cap controlled league, its imperative to spend that money right and get the right balance to a roster and thats hard to do when you have 1 player taking up 35% of the cap. Look at what the Knicks have done with Carmelo Anthony. The Lakers failing to be able to sign key players because of Kobe. His championship years with Miami came with taking a big pay cut in which he signed for $15M a year to accomodate them signing Chris Bosh to the same amount. Then you look at the Warriors

Warriors 2015-16 Starter Salaries

Stephen Curry - $11.4M
Klay Thompson - $15.5M
Draymond Green - $14.6M
Andrew Bogut - $12M
Harrison Barnes - $3.8M

Key Bench Players

Andre Iguodala - $11.7M
Shaun Livingston - $5.5M

Thats a team that bought in. Curry could have easily made much more money. So could Thompson and Green. But they understand its a team and they'd take $5M a year less to win a championship. But there are guys out there that just want to get paid and get theirs. If Lebron James wants to truly bring a title to Cleveland, he can't sign for more than $25M a year. The guys makes enough money from all his endorsements which is around $45M a year. But hey. If he wants to make $70M a year and not win a title, thats all fine and dandy by me. Its not my decision to make. But if he made $60M a year instead, he may just bring that title to a small market team like the Cavaliers.

My point is, Lebron is a great player, but not even Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant did it on their own. They all needed help from guys like Pippen, Rodman or Shaq. They all did with depth. Those Bulls championship teams had Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr coming off the bench.

So Lebron will be a top 10 player in my book no matter how many rings he walks away with.

I think actually those salaries have to do with our FO. We signed Klay and Dray both right before they truly hit the level they are both at right now, matter of fact both deals were laughed at as being over payed. We made the right signing at the right time. Steph, he still had ankle issues at the time we signed him, we went long term security for him, lower per year salary for us, and obviously we've been lucky and those injury concerns haven't really came back.

Either way, he way those salaries are balanced is beautiful!

42-15-7
06-07-2016, 07:20 PM
Durant has 0 championships and lost to james in the finals.... had a 3-1 lead on the warriors.... literally choked the series away and people talked **** about him for one night.. Lebron gets this **** day in and day out year in and year out win or lose.... like honestly did he **** your mothers or something? I hate draymond green but it doesnt come close to the sick insane hate some of you people have for this dude

If you anoint yourself The King, and you have Chosen One stabbed into your back, and you sit on a stage and gloat about Not Four, Not Five, Not Six, when you fall down people are going to run over you, then back over you again just for fun. (See also Cam Newton.)

When you consider yourself the greatest player in the world, but you beg for calls on every play, and you flop like Chris ****ing Paul, I am never going to respect you. I don't care how great you are, in my mind you're the worst kind of athlete, and I can't think of anyone that I never rooted for who acts the way LeBron James does.

You can excuse all that if you want, but don't pretend the man didn't bring it on himself. He earned his hate by being a front-running clown and a passive-aggressive teammate. This Cavs team is entirely his doing, and he's getting his *** beat, and to anyone who's sick of his self-aggrandizing BS all the hate is deserved.

Jayb587
06-07-2016, 07:35 PM
Agreed. They share the ball. Lebron does that too though. Kyrie is the one that doesn't share. Coaching is the reason they never run any plays. You can't blame a player for the offensive scheme.

I honestly think you could argue Thompson over Curry because of his stellar defense. The warriors have put together a roster that the rest of the league wasn't ready for. That's why they are great. Its bigs that are athletic but can still defend the post making them impossible to defend. The fact that everyone can hit jumpers prevents any double teams. The also have the best passing big man in the game in Bogut. The roster they have is a piece of art.

and LeBron didn't choose the coach? LeBron doesn't want to be coached. he's a know it all, believes his drive and kick way of basketball can beat everyone. if LeBron wanted to run plays they would run plays. LeBron having all the power is a big reason for the failure.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2016, 08:11 PM
you called the guy a soft, quitter, with a no jump shot and called him top 3 to 7 all time in the next sentence. its cant be both. KD doesn't get the same hate cause he doesn't get the same BS.

hes never had a jump shot :shrug:

2 nights ago i saw a broken mental player... that doesnt take away from what he has done.... everything is catching up to him... this dude have been abused by fans/media even before it was self deserved.... we will see in the next game how he responds... but mostly i saw a dude who looked like he was fed up with the sport and i have never seen that before... not from jordan and not much from kobe to a point.... kobe in that final season where he wanted out of LA was close but he never beat himself for he stepped on the court... you can be a top 3-7 player and have flaws... jordan wasnt a great shooter either..... every player has flaws period... even mj... Lebrons have always been his shooting and his mental toughness.

hugepatsfan
06-07-2016, 08:15 PM
Yep. I think the more years go by, we see the only way to build around LeBron is shooters, defenders, and rebounders, and they all need to show up and he needs to dominate every game. Unfortunately, that puts a huge amount of pressure on him, and also ups the chances of failure, to his own fault.


we are as pumped as a fan base as we have ever been dude. Trust me.

I have come to the realization that LeBron is probably the one guy I would choose to lift a team of crap to the highest point it can reach. But I also think he limits other star players on how great they can be next to him. I know every superstar does that to some point, but not to the degree we have seen LeBron do it. He has moments where he lifts teams to achievements few could have done (see his 2012 playoff run, or Cavs 60 win teams as an example, or his close out of Detroit single handedly). But he is just such a ball dominator, and great players basically turn into glorified role players alongside him. That is just stress ball right there, and can cause frustrations.

Yup. He's never learned how to play off the ball effectively, instead just wanting guys to play off the ball better. He's the GOAT caliber player. It should be on him to improve his game, not the people around him.

Lebron >>>>> Love. But instead of asking Lebron to improve the weak area of his game to help Kevin they're asking the opposite. Why not have the more talented guy be the one trying to adjust? I think it would work better.

Supreme LA
06-07-2016, 08:51 PM
Durant has 0 championships and lost to james in the finals.... had a 3-1 lead on the warriors.... literally choked the series away and people talked **** about him for one night.. Lebron gets this **** day in and day out year in and year out win or lose.... like honestly did he **** your mothers or something? I hate draymond green but it doesnt come close to the sick insane hate some of you people have for this dude

I'm pretty sure Durant won't ever live his failure from last series down. I don't think any of us could let him slide on the epic meltdown.

Lebron is really catching as much heat as he is because of the fans who anointed him so high to begin with. If we put everything in perspective, there should have been no reason for Lebron to placed so high to begin with. People should have waited to rank him all-time and now its only natural for some people to ask that he be knocked back down.

We had two extremes before this series of where Lebron was to be placed and reasonable people should know it falls somewhere in the middle.

I totally agree with you about KD. Only this is not a KD thread and I don't think any of us will ever let KD slide until he gets over that hump. He literally had the better team and a commanding lead in the series only to choke it away.

ewing
06-07-2016, 11:36 PM
Yup. He's never learned how to play off the ball effectively, instead just wanting guys to play off the ball better. He's the GOAT caliber player. It should be on him to improve his game, not the people around him.

Lebron >>>>> Love. But instead of asking Lebron to improve the weak area of his game to help Kevin they're asking the opposite. Why not have the more talented guy be the one trying to adjust? I think it would work better.


I disagree. when the heat were at there best Bron and Wade played without the ball and took advantage of their superior finishing ability by cutting and catching the ball on the move. Overall i agree though Bron did not do a good job taking advantage of his greatest skill- finishing. Dude was James Worthy on Barry Bonds type riods's filling a lane but he almost always needed to start his team's offense. I think Bron has always wanted to be Magic and while he is great passer he would have been better off playing off the ball more especially during his peak years.

ewing
06-07-2016, 11:43 PM
hes never had a jump shot :shrug:

2 nights ago i saw a broken mental player... that doesnt take away from what he has done.... everything is catching up to him... this dude have been abused by fans/media even before it was self deserved.... we will see in the next game how he responds... but mostly i saw a dude who looked like he was fed up with the sport and i have never seen that before... not from jordan and not much from kobe to a point.... kobe in that final season where he wanted out of LA was close but he never beat himself for he stepped on the court... you can be a top 3-7 player and have flaws... jordan wasnt a great shooter either..... every player has flaws period... even mj... Lebrons have always been his shooting and his mental toughness.

Micheal Jordan was a threat score all the time when he caught the ball he had it on the break and then got his catches 18 and in half court. He was never not a threat with the ball. Bron has the ball and 30 feet all the time in the half court. you cant shoot, you shouldn't have the ball there. anyway, I do hope Bron shows up for game 3. I do not think he is a top 7 all time player but he is a great player and this is a spot where great players have a responsibility to take **** on themselves and show. I honestly hope he does.

Jeffy25
06-08-2016, 01:48 AM
Its as if losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all.

It's unbelievable

More-Than-Most
06-08-2016, 02:02 AM
Micheal Jordan was a threat score all the time when he caught the ball he had it on the break and then got his catches 18 and in half court. He was never not a threat with the ball. Bron has the ball and 30 feet all the time in the half court. you cant shoot, you shouldn't have the ball there. anyway, I do hope Bron shows up for game 3. I do not think he is a top 7 all time player but he is a great player and this is a spot where great players have a responsibility to take **** on themselves and show. I honestly hope he does.

i can live with them losing the series but not the way they lost game 2..... That was a disgrace.

Jeffy25
06-08-2016, 02:03 AM
Anyone notice that the only people who think this affects him or have LeBron lower on their ranks are all Laker fans?

Am I the only one that notices that?

L8kers4life
06-08-2016, 02:06 AM
hes never had a jump shot :shrug:

2 nights ago i saw a broken mental player... that doesnt take away from what he has done.... everything is catching up to him... this dude have been abused by fans/media even before it was self deserved.... we will see in the next game how he responds... but mostly i saw a dude who looked like he was fed up with the sport and i have never seen that before... not from jordan and not much from kobe to a point.... kobe in that final season where he wanted out of LA was close but he never beat himself for he stepped on the court... you can be a top 3-7 player and have flaws... jordan wasnt a great shooter either..... every player has flaws period... even mj... Lebrons have always been his shooting and his mental toughness.

Mj had no 3 point shot, but he is the greatest mid range shooter of all time. Jordan was the king of the long 2 point shot, anything inside the 3 point line Jordan was deadly, you definitely did not watch MJ if you don't think he is a great shooter, everyone knows this. And Jordan understood his weaknesses, so unless he was red hot from 3 he would never just Chuck away 3 point shots. Go watch any MJ game and come back and tell me he wasn't a great shooter, that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Jeffy25
06-08-2016, 02:07 AM
I disagree. when the heat were at there best Bron and Wade played without the ball and took advantage of their superior finishing ability by cutting and catching the ball on the move. Overall i agree though Bron did not do a good job taking advantage of his greatest skill- finishing. Dude was James Worthy on Barry Bonds type riods's filling a lane but he almost always needed to start his team's offense. I think Bron has always wanted to be Magic and while he is great passer he would have been better off playing off the ball more especially during his peak years.

I have never felt Bron has been with the right team...even though he is probably the most adaptable player in the game.


He could be with a good shooting perimeter team where he ball dominates.

He could be with a good post team mate and passing 1 while he plays off the ball.

He could be with so many good, easy to build set ups. But he's only been with trash (early Cavs years) or a lot of other scorers (Kyrie/Love or Wade/Bosh)

L8kers4life
06-08-2016, 02:09 AM
Anyone notice that the only people who think this affects him or have LeBron lower on their ranks are all Laker fans?

Am I the only one that notices that?

I don't think he should be dropped, but I think the reason he is getting this treatment from laker fans is because the constant hate Kobe received from LeBron fans in this site, and the fact the ESPN rankings had LeBron at 3 and Kobe at 12. That's a joke, there is not a chance in hell that LeBron is number 3 all time, and Kobe at 12, lol..

NYKalltheway
06-08-2016, 02:30 AM
I love MJ but I think his dominance was actually very bad for the game, turning a generation into 1on5 players.

MJ was not 1vs5. The media - mostly - and fan perception caused this shift to generations (2-3 of them) to act like basketball is an individual sport and anyone else on the court was just being a role player or something.

NYKalltheway
06-08-2016, 02:35 AM
The OP question is fundamentally wrong.
The real question to people who overrated Lebron is: Should Lebron have been considered a top x player in the first place? Where x usually is 5 or 10. The answer is hell no. He's barely a top 20 player and I'm being extremely generous and as objective as possible here. Imo, he's somewhere in the top 30s. Been there since 2012, haven't seen much to say he's a better player than then. In fact, he's declining at a very fast pace.

nastynice
06-08-2016, 03:00 AM
This is the flaw in ranking players with years of good bball left on all time lists. People are doing it with curry too and I think it's pointless. If someone wants to debate greatest "season" or something like that, that would make more sense.

FraziersKnicks
06-08-2016, 03:24 AM
The OP question is fundamentally wrong.
The real question to people who overrated Lebron is: Should Lebron have been considered a top x player in the first place? Where x usually is 5 or 10. The answer is hell no. He's barely a top 20 player and I'm being extremely generous and as objective as possible here. Imo, he's somewhere in the top 30s. Been there since 2012, haven't seen much to say he's a better player than then. In fact, he's declining at a very fast pace.

I would absolutely LOVE to see a list of 30 NBA players who are better than LeBron...

I'll be here waiting.

More-Than-Most
06-08-2016, 03:38 AM
I don't think he should be dropped, but I think the reason he is getting this treatment from laker fans is because the constant hate Kobe received from LeBron fans in this site, and the fact the ESPN rankings had LeBron at 3 and Kobe at 12. That's a joke, there is not a chance in hell that LeBron is number 3 all time, and Kobe at 12, lol..

Mine would have lebron 5-7 but he will end up top 3-5.... I know he wont catch Jordan and I am not sure I will put him about Magic either.... Kobe would be in the 8-11 range in my opinion.

Shmoo
06-08-2016, 06:09 AM
Lebron shouldn't drop from the top twenty no. But he sure isn't breaking the top 15. Playing his whole career in the weak east. Only winning rings because he had to team up with two other superstars and a HOF player in Ray. Lebron is what he is a great athlete with a fragile mental game

basketfan4life
06-08-2016, 06:10 AM
Yep. I think the more years go by, we see the only way to build around LeBron is shooters, defenders, and rebounders, and they all need to show up and he needs to dominate every game. Unfortunately, that puts a huge amount of pressure on him, and also ups the chances of failure, to his own fault.

That is the main reason i had a hard time putting LeBrons peak ahead of Kobe's. Stats wise sure, lbj is better. But building around and winning with Kobe is easier to me. When people say winning is a team job, i say yes it is, but building a team around LeBron to win is a hard job. It took prime Wade and Bosh to do it with a lot of role players, a cake walk in the east (out of a Boston series in which Lebron was wonderful), a miracle shot from Ray Allen and so on.

And the team you mentioned which works for Lebron will have a real hard time against a real contender from West, which we see year in and year out.

I think LBJ is more dominan than x player is a way better argument then LBJ is better than x player.

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 07:56 AM
Last year the excuse was Love and Kyrie weren't playing in the finals and Golden State was lucky all through the playoffs, Blatt was an idiot and didn't command Lebrons respect, he doesn't have enough talent or support... etc... etc.

It's early for this but what is the excuse now if he loses again... The Cavs have one of the biggest payrolls "in the history of the NBA" (Dan Gilbert did his job and opened the cheque book). He handpicked his teammates in his return (he chose to join Kyrie and he pushed for Love before he even signed a deal with the Cavs). Lebron wrote a letter to Cavs fans talking about how he will enjoy playing with Kyrie, Waiters... etc and specifically leaving out Wiggins and shortly after he's traded for Love (Griffin did his job and even put some better pieces around Lebron this year and that includes firing his coach mid season to get a coach he wanted). He knew what he was getting when he came and even when he was here he clearly pushed for further changes like the firing of David Blatt after he publicly humiliated him at times during the season this year and last year.

I've said numerous times on this site that Lebron has piss poor leadership skills and that's his biggest downfall as a franchise player. After watching his entire team quit (INCLUDING HIMSELF) in game 2 of the finals this year attests to that not to mention him publicly humiliating his teammates via twitter sending out cryptic tweets... He jokes around with the leader of an opposing team during halftime when getting slaughtered by that team, demoralizes David Blatt while his teammates and cameras are watching... etc... etc... (there are so many examples of poor leadership with him I'll stop there but this is my thought on the subject).

Just wondering what the excuse is this year for Lebron and why he isn't getting the job done...

Thoughts???

FraziersKnicks
06-08-2016, 08:41 AM
They're playing arguably the greatest team in NBA history.

You don't need any excuses if you lose a 7 game series to a 73 win team.

Stop trolling.

likemystylez
06-08-2016, 08:46 AM
They're playing arguably the greatest team in NBA history.

You don't need any excuses if you lose a 7 game series to a 73 win team.

Stop trolling.

This!

why is it that lebron personally needs the excuse? Reality is that teams win championships not players (despite what first take would have you believe). And to anybody with common sense- Reality is that the warriors team is far better than the cavs team. Thats not new information either, its been consistently true the last couple years.

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 09:03 AM
I agree that they are playing a great team and I'm not taking anything against the warriors but when you look at something like the 1st game of the NBA finals and you get clobbered with the stars on the opposing team playing poorly and combining for 20 points in the game (would have been 14 if they both didn't make garbage time 3's) what is the excuse for that??? and for quitting in game 2... You can lose but go down fighting don't just quit and point fingers everywhere or put your hand in your face.

If you look at CP3 even if they are getting beat bad dude won't give up or let his team quit "he will even take over if necessary or needed" you know what I mean like leading by example which is why I was leaning towards leadership. Losing to a better team is fine but when you flat out quit what is the excuse for that??? Again I'm leaning towards leadership as the main reason... I don't think OKC in the WCF or if the Spurs were to play GS they would say this team is just too great lets just quit and chill.

I'm pointing at leadership mainly.

minato_17
06-08-2016, 09:08 AM
This time it is not Lebron's fault. The Cavs are just outclassed in both offense and defense by a historic team who went through the hellish series against the long and athlethic Thunder.

The Warriors were walking in mud in the WCF and now they are driving in a Ferrari all the way to a back to back championshis.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Slug3
06-08-2016, 09:15 AM
I agree that they are playing a great team and I'm not taking anything against the warriors but when you look at something like the 1st game of the NBA finals and you get clobbered with the stars on the opposing team playing poorly and combining for 20 points in the game (would have been 14 if they both didn't make garbage time 3's) what is the excuse for that??? and for quitting in game 2... You can lose but go down fighting don't just quit and point fingers everywhere or put your hand in your face.

If you look at CP3 even if they are getting beat bad dude won't give up or let his team quit "he will even take over if necessary or needed" you know what I mean like leading by example which is why I was leaning towards leadership. Losing to a better team is fine but when you flat out quit what is the excuse for that??? Again I'm leaning towards leadership as the main reason... I don't think OKC in the WCF or if the Spurs were to play GS they would say this team is just too great lets just quit and chill.

I'm pointing at leadership mainly.

You used Chris Paul as an example and he has never even been to a finals, I am not even sure he has even made it to the conference finals.

YAALREADYKNO
06-08-2016, 09:16 AM
The OP question is fundamentally wrong.
The real question to people who overrated Lebron is: Should Lebron have been considered a top x player in the first place? Where x usually is 5 or 10. The answer is hell no. He's barely a top 20 player and I'm being extremely generous and as objective as possible here. Imo, he's somewhere in the top 30s. Been there since 2012, haven't seen much to say he's a better player than then. In fact, he's declining at a very fast pace.

You're seriously just hating on Lebron now lol

YAALREADYKNO
06-08-2016, 09:18 AM
Lebron belongs in the top 6-10 range. Dont think he's top 5 yet

PhillyFaninLA
06-08-2016, 09:24 AM
In all but one of the Finals Lebron has been in his team was not the most talented team on the floor.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2016, 09:33 AM
Instead of making excuses I wonder how many people are actually sitting back and enjoying the Finals? We got what everyone wanted, a rematch and the best teams of their conference. Plus a Cleveland squad with no excuses this time.

I'm hyped for every game, I'm hoping it goes 7.

As far as how I view Lebron nothing's changed, he had his run of dominance, I think it's just simply Stephs turn now and we are watching a changing of the guard.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2016, 09:40 AM
In all but one of the Finals Lebron has been in his team was not the most talented team on the floor.

Not true.

Replace the word talent with cohesive and you'd be correct though.

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 09:48 AM
You used Chris Paul as an example and he has never even been to a finals, I am not even sure he has even made it to the conference finals.

Does that make him a poor leader? He is so respected for his leadership on and off the floor that he's the head of the union for the players. Make no mistake Paul is a better leader than Lebron and I'm not sure why you are acting like it's even questionable.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 10:11 AM
the "excuse" would be they lost to a better team that has a talent disparity and is a tough matchup for Cleveland's roster makeup.

Doesn't sound like an excuse to me. Better team usually wins. Kinda how it works. But whatever you need to help you sleep at night worrying about LeBron's failures and living vicariously through them

whitemamba33
06-08-2016, 10:18 AM
This doesn't quite add up for me. The Cav's are losing (to arguably the best team of all time) and it's LeBron's fault because he's not a good leader. The Clippers have underperformed to the extent that there are talks of blowing up the team, but it's not Chris Paul's fault because he's an amazing leader. It sounds to me like you are either overvaluing leadership, or paying far too much attention to what "unnamed sources" have to say.

Also, http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-deandre-jordan-grew-tired-of-chris-pauls-constant-barking/

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 10:28 AM
the "excuse" would be they lost to a better team that has a talent disparity and is a tough matchup for Cleveland's roster makeup.

Doesn't sound like an excuse to me. Better team usually wins. Kinda how it works. But whatever you need to help you sleep at night worrying about LeBron's failures and living vicariously through them

Is that true though when he lost in 2011 did the better team win or did he shrink from the moment. Not to take anything away from Dallas but if you are not playing you should or being the leader you should be sometimes the better team loses. There are examples of the better teams losing in NBA history but the above is one of them.

I also am not disagreeing the Golden State is not playing like the better team right now but like I said when your 2 best players on your team combine for 20 points and you still can't close the deal in game 1 (never mind that they got BLOWN OUT) does that make what you said correct is Golden States bench that much better than Lebron and the Cavs???

whitemamba33
06-08-2016, 10:29 AM
In all but one of the Finals Lebron has been in his team was not the most talented team on the floor.

Which one are you referencing?

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 10:30 AM
This doesn't quite add up for me. The Cav's are losing (to arguably the best team of all time) and it's LeBron's fault because he's not a good leader. The Clippers have underperformed to the extent that there are talks of blowing up the team, but it's not Chris Paul's fault because he's an amazing leader. It sounds to me like you are either overvaluing leadership, or paying far too much attention to what "unnamed sources" have to say.

Also, http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-deandre-jordan-grew-tired-of-chris-pauls-constant-barking/

Before OKC was up 3-1 in the WCF and Paul and Griffin had injuries it was looked upon that they were the only team that would be able to take out Golden State (Possibly more so than San Antonio).

Jayb587
06-08-2016, 10:31 AM
Mine would have lebron 5-7 but he will end up top 3-5.... I know he wont catch Jordan and I am not sure I will put him about Magic either.... Kobe would be in the 8-11 range in my opinion.

Just curious. What does he have to do in order I reach #3 in your opinion.

whitemamba33
06-08-2016, 10:35 AM
Before OKC was up 3-1 in the WCF and Paul and Griffin had injuries it was looked upon that they were the only team that would be able to take out Golden State (Possibly more so than San Antonio).

For someone who was asking for excuses in his original post, you sure just found a few.

They were 0-4 against the GSW during the regular season, finished 20 wins behind them, were only up 2-1 against Portland before the injuries (the loss coming with both Paul and Griffin playing), and lost 4-2 to a team that Golden State beat 4-1. I'm not sure who you talk basketball with, but if they thought the Clippers had a better chance of stopping GSW than San Antonio or OKC, it explains a lot.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 10:44 AM
Is that true though when he lost in 2011 did the better team win or did he shrink from the moment. Not to take anything away from Dallas but if you are not playing you should or being the leader you should be sometimes the better team loses. There are examples of the better teams losing in NBA history but the above is one of them.

This isn't 2011 though, you are asking what is his excuse THIS year. There isn't any to be made


I also am not disagreeing the Golden State is not playing like the better team right now but like I said when your 2 best players on your team combine for 20 points and you still can't close the deal in game 1 (never mind that they got BLOWN OUT) does that make what you said correct is Golden States bench that much better than Lebron and the Cavs???

GS is the better team, has been all year, and is a matchup problem for Cleveland. Iggy is the only guy in the league since LeBron came in that can check him 1-1, now letting GS defenders stay at home on the Cavs shooters. On the other end, GS runs a system of screen, after screen, after screen, which Love/Irving suck at trying to defend.

Not only more talented, more cohesive, and simply better, but also a matchup problem for Cleveland. LeBron, the GM, picked his teammates wrong. If you want to use that, go for it. But as for the results of his basketball team, there is no excuse to be made. They aren't expected to win this series. Never were. I have been saying that for a month now, and some of you continue to act like this is a revelation to you. Take down the LeBron dart board, and grow up.

Fun fact: Kobe's Lakers never won a title against a team that was better than them in the regular season.

What's his excuse?

wildbear
06-08-2016, 10:44 AM
No. He's solidified as a top 10 player of all time, but he will never be ahead of Jordan. I personally have him at 3 or 4 behind Jordan, Kareem, and maybe Magic.

His Finals record is flawed as well.

1. His first year in the Finals, he carried a garbage team and played Duncan, Ginobili, Parker all in their primes. NO ONE expected Cleveland to win.

2. His second year in the Finals (2011) is bad on him. He was awful, but my Mavs did their job, and Dirk solidified that he was one of the 20 greatest players to ever play.

3. His third year, 2012, he absolutely dominated the Thunder

4. His 4th year, 2013, he was saved by one of the biggest shots of all time by Ray Allen. He was bad the first two games, but was a monster the final 4.

5. His 5th year, 2014, he averaged 28 ppg on nearly 60% shooting. He was not the problem. Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs were just playing at an all time level that series. An ALL TIME great team performance by SA.

6. His 6th year, 2015, he gets a 200% pass. He was playing one of the best teams ever, without Irving and Love, and he averaged something like 36/12/9 in the series. He was BY FAR the best player in that series, and he himself kept the series competitive.

7. This year, he hasn't been bad at all, and his cast has been god awful, but he does get blame for still being WAY too passive. He needs to be scoring between 40-50 points. And at the same time, he's playing against arguably the greatest team in NBA history.


So it's hard to really put blame on him for losing in 2007, 2015, where he was playing at all time levels and partially this year, though he could erupt for 40-50 and win games just like that, starting tonight. 2011 he was HORRIBLE and 2013 he was lacking early on and was saved by Ray Allen.

I say there are two series where he deserves absolutely no blame, and that evens his record at 2-2.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 10:46 AM
I would absolutely LOVE to see a list of 30 NBA players who are better than LeBron...

I'll be here waiting.

you haven't seen his list? It's amazing. I think Pooh Richardson is in there

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 10:46 AM
Before OKC was up 3-1 in the WCF and Paul and Griffin had injuries it was looked upon that they were the only team that would be able to take out Golden State (Possibly more so than San Antonio).

For someone who was asking for excuses in his original post, you sure just found a few.

Just to add in you pointing out Chris Paul when Blake went down he didn't act or say we are playing better teams than us dude was a real leader and got more out of his team and improved there record to the point that people were even contemplating if the clips need Blake... That's leadership dude the fact that you even questioned Chris Paul as a leader makes me question your basketball knowledge.

With Lebron if he's out matched well game 2 comes to mind and his teammates followed the leader and quit.

Timmmahhh
06-08-2016, 10:47 AM
Just my opinion, but it only worked for LeBron in Miami because he had Pat Riley pulling the strings and making the moves.

LeBron is not a GM and shouldn't be allowed to take on those responsibilities because he's not qualified to do so. Jettisoning Wiggins for Love was just the start.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 10:48 AM
Instead of making excuses I wonder how many people are actually sitting back and enjoying the Finals? We got what everyone wanted, a rematch and the best teams of their conference. Plus a Cleveland squad with no excuses this time.

I'm hyped for every game, I'm hoping it goes 7.

As far as how I view Lebron nothing's changed, he had his run of dominance, I think it's just simply Stephs turn now and we are watching a changing of the guard.

the only people enjoying these finals are Dubs fans and Bron haters. The games aren't even competitive, so to the fans who just wanted a good series, regardless of outcome (me for example), this series sucks. I haven't watched a 4th quarter of the finals yet.

Chronz
06-08-2016, 10:48 AM
So you mean them being happier hasn't made a difference? What happened to the importance of chemistry?

Lots of snooze material in here bro

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 10:50 AM
That is the main reason i had a hard time putting LeBrons peak ahead of Kobe's. Stats wise sure, lbj is better. But building around and winning with Kobe is easier to me. When people say winning is a team job, i say yes it is, but building a team around LeBron to win is a hard job. It took prime Wade and Bosh to do it with a lot of role players, a cake walk in the east (out of a Boston series in which Lebron was wonderful), a miracle shot from Ray Allen and so on.

And the team you mentioned which works for Lebron will have a real hard time against a real contender from West, which we see year in and year out.

I think LBJ is more dominan than x player is a way better argument then LBJ is better than x player.

I truly believe LeBron's career would have been different had he been given a coach up front that didn't let him call the shots. Mike Brown is such an idiot, all he knew to do was give LeBron the ball and let him isolate and do it all.

But, too late now. We know LeBron is one of the top 3-4 talents the game has ever seen. That he has succeeded. But I think he could have been even better, scary enough.

LA4life24/8
06-08-2016, 10:51 AM
The biggest problem i have with this is the fact that Brons teammates are gonna get roasted alive for losing these finals (Even though they are losing to one of the greatest TEAMS of all time).

But, if they happen to win lebron will get 100% of the credit it will be " ohh lebron is a God, he willed the cavaliers to victory it was all him."
He gets all glory if they win but it's not his fault if they lose?

likemystylez
06-08-2016, 10:52 AM
the "excuse" would be they lost to a better team that has a talent disparity and is a tough matchup for Cleveland's roster makeup.

Doesn't sound like an excuse to me. Better team usually wins. Kinda how it works. But whatever you need to help you sleep at night worrying about LeBron's failures and living vicariously through them

pretty much..... its almost as ridiculous as saying "whats your excuse for not winning the lottery today?"

Chronz
06-08-2016, 11:02 AM
The biggest problem i have with this is the fact that Brons teammates are gonna get roasted alive for losing these finals (Even though they are losing to one of the greatest TEAMS of all time).

But, if they happen to win lebron will get 100% of the credit it will be " ohh lebron is a God, he willed the cavaliers to victory it was all him."
He gets all glory if they win but it's not his fault if they lose?

I think everyone is gonna get their fair share of the blame. Bron hasn't been lighting the world up himself.

Either Bron is coming up small these Finals or the guy is truly done with his prime. This could be his Moses Moment.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2016, 11:05 AM
I think everyone is gonna get their fair share of the blame. Bron hasn't been lighting the world up himself.

Either Bron is coming up small these Finals or the guy is truly done with his prime. This could be his Moses Moment.

Iggy has always done a good job on him. His defense is allowing GS to not have to send help, which kills their Bron collapse the defense/find the shooter norm.

LeBron's jumper retired last year. It's non-existant. He isn't the same player anymore imo.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2016, 11:07 AM
This isn't 2011 though, you are asking what is his excuse THIS year. There isn't any to be made



GS is the better team, has been all year, and is a matchup problem for Cleveland. Iggy is the only guy in the league since LeBron came in that can check him 1-1, now letting GS defenders stay at home on the Cavs shooters. On the other end, GS runs a system of screen, after screen, after screen, which Love/Irving suck at trying to defend.

Not only more talented, more cohesive, and simply better, but also a matchup problem for Cleveland. LeBron, the GM, picked his teammates wrong. If you want to use that, go for it. But as for the results of his basketball team, there is no excuse to be made. They aren't expected to win this series. Never were. I have been saying that for a month now, and some of you continue to act like this is a revelation to you. Take down the LeBron dart board, and grow up.

Fun fact: Kobe's Lakers never won a title against a team that was better than them in the regular season.

What's his excuse?

Funner fact: MJ only beat one Finals team with a better record, the Suns.

Whats HIS excuse?

Or do you only hold that against the retired guy you can't stop hating on who is still unrelated to this topic?

ghettosean
06-08-2016, 11:10 AM
This isn't 2011 though, you are asking what is his excuse THIS year. There isn't any to be made


I brought up 2011 to counter your post saying that the better team "usually" wins. I agree with that but the team on the other side doesn't usually roll over and die and that's really my point and also pointing towards leadership attributes.




GS is the better team, has been all year, and is a matchup problem for Cleveland. Iggy is the only guy in the league since LeBron came in that can check him 1-1, now letting GS defenders stay at home on the Cavs shooters. On the other end, GS runs a system of screen, after screen, after screen, which Love/Irving suck at trying to defend.

Not only more talented, more cohesive, and simply better, but also a matchup problem for Cleveland. LeBron, the GM, picked his teammates wrong. If you want to use that, go for it. But as for the results of his basketball team, there is no excuse to be made. They aren't expected to win this series. Never were. I have been saying that for a month now, and some of you continue to act like this is a revelation to you. Take down the LeBron dart board, and grow up.

Fun fact: Kobe's Lakers never won a title against a team that was better than them in the regular season.

What's his excuse?

Golden state is the more cohesive team as for talented if the Cavs could maximize the talents on there squad they could put up more of a fight than this... Hell last year without Kyrie and Love they were leading the series at one point and aside from this team getting more experience and time to grow with each other the Cavs have got that as well so to me when looking at how they have been playing I can't just look at the better team winning. They are getting dismantled out there with the stars on Golden State not even playing that well (maybe Curry in Game 2 but he got in early foul trouble and barely played in the 2nd half). The difference I'm seeing mainly between last year and this year personally is that the Cavs are quitting because they feel outmatched where last year they were clearly out matched but they scrapped and fought to try and pull out a victory and they came pretty damn close being severely handicapped. Unlike last year this year they are more rested, more healthy so with all I've mentioned above I point to leadership in regards to this epic collapse/his team quitting so far in these finals.


To add why must people bring up Kobe like I'm a fan of him or something.... Super annoying I don't like Kobe in the slightest I really don't but I feel like with most if you are debating something Lebron people find a way to use him like they are hurting your soul or something. I didn't look up what you are saying about Kobe I'll take your word for it but let me relate this back to the thread and what I'm talking about with Lebron has Kobe ever quit against a team because they were superior to him?

We both know the answer to this...

ClassyAshyLarry
06-08-2016, 11:10 AM
This forum is full of idiots.