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View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting 2nd Round - 2 v 3 (NBA)



valade16
06-03-2016, 06:38 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll. (NOTE: votes by accounts with less than 100 votes will not count)

(2) EbbsVanityProject

PG: Mark Price - Gilbert Arenas
SG: Clyde Drexler - Hal Greer
SF: Shane Battier - Eddie Johnson
PF: Carmelo Anthony - Charles Oakley
C: Hakeem Olaujuwon - Vlade Divac

vs.

(3) Manson Family Serial Killers

PG: Deron Williams - Paul Westphal
SG: Kawhi Leonard - Jason Richardson
SF: Scottie Pippen - Sean Elliott
PF: Rasheed Wallace - Antonio McDyess
C: Patrick Ewing - Tyson Chandler

greg_ory_2005
06-03-2016, 06:50 PM
I like Manson more in this matchup but I'll hear arguments first before I decide

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 07:13 PM
This is an absolutely terrible match up for the Vanity Project.

Carmelo Anthony is not a good fit at PF for his team. Why? Let's take a look...

Carmelo Anthony PF 3 year prime (2012-2013, 2013-2014, 2014-2015): 33.5% usage in regular season on .555 ts%, 38.0% usage in the playoffs on .497 ts%

If he argues that Carmelo Anthony had a terrible supporting cast as justification for his lack of production and success, he discredits Hakeem over Ewing in the 94 Finals . Not only did Ewing carry his team with John Starks as his best teammate, he took Hakeem to 7 games. Had Starks not have shot 2 for 18 in game 7, it is without question Ewing would have a ring. The Rockets won the championship but did so with a negative point win differential.

Manson Family welcomes Carmelo Anthony at PF being his highest usage % player, over Hakeem, over Clyde, and over Mark Price. In transition, Manson Family has the 2 best wing defenders in NBA history (Pippen/Leonard) to slow down the Vanity Project. Ewing and backup DPOY Tyson Chandler will be on Hakeem the entire game. Hakeem will get his but it won't be easy. Meanwhile, Vanity's wings will be locked up.

I'll do player matchups in just a minute.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 07:25 PM
Mark Price vs Deron Williams

Deron Williams will spend time on Price and Battier. Manson Family wants to rest Deron on defense against Battier who has only ever scored 30 in 2 games out of his entire regular season and playoff career. Deron will not get torched whatsoever.

Let’s look at Mark Price’s numbers and compare them to Deron Williams’.

Regular Season

Mark Price 1991-1992, 1992-1993, 1993-1994: FG% 48.3, 3P% 40.1, FT% 92.9, REB 2.7, AST 7.7, PTS 17.8
Deron Williams 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010: FG% 48.3, 3P% 35.8, REB 3.3, AST 10.6, PTS 19.0

Mark Price is the slightly more efficient player, but Deron is the better facilitator and scorer. Not to mention, Deron Williams is at worst an average defender, and at 6’3 200 lbs being a bigger PG, he could bully tiny 6’0 170 lbs Price is the post or cross him over as he attacks the rim. This is the biggest weakness of Price… he will get torched by Williams. He was an atrocious defender his entire career.

Now let’s look at where Deron Williams separates himself even further from Mark Price, in the postseason.

Postseason

Mark Price 1991-1992, 1992-1993, 1993-1994: FG% 46.6, 3P%, 33.7, FT% 91.9, REB 2.3, AST 6.8, PTS 16.9
Deron Williams 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010: FG% 46.3, 3P% 43.2, FT% .798, REB 3.3, AST 10.2, PTS 22.3

Deron Williams was more explosive AND efficient in the postseason. While Price regresses, Williams steps up when it matters most. He even shot/made more 3 pointers (at a higher %) than Price.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 07:37 PM
Scottie Pippen vs Clyde Drexler

I don’t think I really have to post much here. Scottie Pippen would absolutely lock Drexler down and cause him to be even more inefficient than he already was in the postseason (.501 TS% in 1987-1988, 1988-1989, 1989-1990). I suspect Pippen would have even better efficiency and numbers overall because Clyde Drexler could not contain Pippen on the defensive end. He was never known as a lock down defender.

In the playoff head-to-head, Pippen locked Drexler to shooting only 40.7% FG and only 15% from 3. Meanwhile, Pippen was 48.4% FG while grabbing more rebounds and making more assists than Clyde.

Manson Family also plans on playing Pippen on Melo from time-to-time when/if they decide to go small ball. Either way, it spells disaster for Drexler/Melo.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 07:46 PM
Kawhi Leonard vs Shane Battier

Shane Battier is a terrible starter going up against Manson Family. Not only is he nowhere close to the defender Kawhi or Pippen are/were, his offense is almost non-existent. As stated previously, Battier has scored 30 or more points in 2 games out of his entire career (postseason included).

In fairness to Battier though, Kawhi will almost never be guarding him. What is to guard… his 8.3 points per game postseason average from 2004-2005, 2005-2006, 2006-2007? No thanks, Deron Williams will spend some time “guarding” Battier stationary at the perimeter. There will also be times when we have Sheed on Battier camped on the perimeter.

Kawhi will spend most of his time guarding Melo and Mark Price. In Kawhi’s head-to-head against Carmelo Anthony, Kawhi shot 50% on him, and Melo shot an abysmal 40.7%. Price and/or Melo will get locked up badly at “the claw” of Kawhi Leonard.

Just for fun, here are Kawhi's 3 year prime playoff numbers:

.596 ts%, 50.0% fg, 42.4% 3P, 17.4 ppg, 6.8 REB, 2.1 AST, 1.8 STL, .8 BLK, in only 33 minutes of action. He increases his offense while maintaining his elite defense. A lot of greats sacrifice offense for defense, but Pippen and Kawhi never had to. They remained elite on both ends of the floor.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 07:58 PM
Rasheed Wallace vs Carmelo Anthony

This is not going to be pretty for Anthony. As stated above, Carmelo takes so many shots away from the 3 superior offensively players on his own team (Mark Price, Clyde Drexler, and most importantly Hakeem). This is absolutely good news for Manson Family because this only means less work for Ewing and Tyson on defense because instead of feeding it to Hakeem, Melo will be chucking ill-advised contested long 2 pointers. The Manson Family has the edge on rebounds, so they will be sure to grab those bricks by Melo.

How Manson Family plans to use Rasheed will vary. If Carmelo is guarding him, Sheed will make Melo pay in the post. He is taller, bigger, and stronger… this will force Hakeem to have to come over and help Melo. That’s when Sheed passes it to Ewing for the dunk or mid-range shot.

If Vanity decides to do the smart thing and put in Oakley, Sheed will space the floor out and work mostly from mid-range all the way to the 3 point arch where Sheed shot 40% in the postseason during his 3 year playoff prime. Either way, Sheed will create spacing and has the perfect team-first mentality when it comes to passing the shot instead of forcing it up.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 08:06 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon vs Patrick Ewing

Hakeem is clearly the better player here. The goal of Manson Family is to make Hakeem work as hard as possible to get his points. In their head-to-head in the 1994 NBA Finals, Ewing put the Knicks on his back and took Hakeem and the Rockets to 7 games. As said previously, if it weren’t for John Starks going 2/18, Ewing would have a ring.

Hakeem will get his points against Ewing/Tyson, no doubt, but he will have no one else to help him on the offensive end. Manson will dispatch the 2 best wing defenders in NBA history on their best wing/perimeter players and I highly doubt Battier is going to carry any of the scoring load

Player head-to-head, Hakeem gets the advantage against Ewing. But as a team, Deron getting his against a weak defender in Price, Kawhi stopping Melo/Price, Pippen stopping Clyde/Melo, resting Deron on Battier, and Ewing/Tyson on Hakeem, Sheed providing elite defense and incredible spacing, the Manson Family will grind defensively and offensively against the Vanity Project and win this matchup.

Vanity only has 1 good wing defender who can't score to save his life (Battier), and 1 great post defender. They will be eaten alive in transition.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2016, 08:18 PM
I think Manson matches up perfectly. I usually just vote but i wanna see how ebbs counters this hectic defense

Quinnsanity
06-03-2016, 09:58 PM
The team that convinces me they'll be able to score gets my vote. It's legitimately 50/50. I haven't read any of RR's posts yet so maybe he answers this but I'm also very curious about how he's aligning his defense.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-03-2016, 10:06 PM
Pippen and Kawhi's as good of a duo to stop Clyde and Carmelo. I'm sure there's probably some good numbers to draw from as to how well Clyde did against the Bulls and Carmelo against the Spurs.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 10:28 PM
The team that convinces me they'll be able to score gets my vote. It's legitimately 50/50. I haven't read any of RR's posts yet so maybe he answers this but I'm also very curious about how he's aligning his defense.

I'll make it more concise:

Mark Price's defense is atrocious and his postseason numbers take a nose dive. Deron Williams increase his scoring (22+ ppg) and efficiency (.606 ts%) in the playoffs. Price gets torched.

Battier is not going to score very much at all. He averaged 8 points in his 3 year playoff prime. Deron Williams gets to rest on him. Kawhi increases his scoring output and efficiency (especially from 3) in the playoffs. He will absolutely demolish Battier.

Pippen made Clyde shoot 40% FG in the playoffs head-to-head. Clyde averaged a little over .500 ts% in his 3 year playoff prime... imagine Pippen full time on Clyde. Pippen also scored over 20 points a game on 48+% FG shooting against Clyde.

Sheed will score over Melo in the post, or know down 3's if Oakley is put on him. He averaged 19 ppg and shot 40% from 3 in his 3 year playoff prime. Lets not forget that Melo was a historic terrible PF defender. He doesn't stand a chance against Sheed in the post.

Ewing and Tyson will do their best to make life difficult for Hakeem. Melo is Vanity Project's highest usage player which would make Tyson/Ewing's job a hell of a lot easier. A player with 38% usage in the postseason during his playoff peak at PF and shot under .500 ts% is going to be detrimental to Vanity's offense.

Redrum187
06-03-2016, 10:30 PM
Pippen and Kawhi's as good of a duo to stop Clyde and Carmelo. I'm sure there's probably some good numbers to draw from as to how well Clyde did against the Bulls and Carmelo against the Spurs.

Yes sir. I already posted what Kawhi makes Carmelo shoot in their head-to-head: Kawhi is 50%, Melo is 40%. Pippen is 48%, Clyde is 40%. It's a nightmare considering Melo's usage and his defensive deficiencies at the PF position.

NYKalltheway
06-04-2016, 04:31 AM
I'll make it more concise:

Mark Price's defense is atrocious


No, it's not.

Series probably goes to 7 games. Slight advantage, ebbs. More depth and more talent. Manson's bench mostly has role players that can do 1-2 things at most.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 05:21 AM
No, it's not.

Series probably goes to 7 games. Slight advantage, ebbs. More depth and more talent. Manson's bench mostly has role players that can do 1-2 things at most.

Granted I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but even they show he was terrible on that end.

NYKalltheway
06-04-2016, 07:39 AM
Granted I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but even they show he was terrible on that end.

What defensive stats are those?
And what do you need stats for when you can watch a player act on the defensive end?

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 10:07 AM
The insane thing about this matchup is that Ebbs team is either my 2nd or 3rd favorite team in the redraft but I just hate how they match-up here. Ebbs should pound the Finals matchup here to try and knock Ewing down but the reality is the trio of Ewing/Sheed/Tyson would do an admirable job together on Hakeem. Then Kawhi/Pippen on Drexler/Melo is the perfect duo to slow down his wings. Plus Deron can hide on Battier and just worry about running the offense. By the slightest of margins I'm going Manson family here.

Lucky.
06-04-2016, 10:25 AM
Granted I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but even they show he was terrible on that end.

Gotta agree with NYK here. I feel like this is a case of the "White guy who's bad on defense and isn't athletic." Sometimes the eye test proves the stats wrong.

eDush
06-04-2016, 11:05 AM
(null)
Excellent job on player match up Redrum :nod:

MSK takes this series!

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 11:15 AM
I'll respond when I get home today.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 01:47 PM
Excellent job on player match up Redrum :nod:

MSK takes this series!

Thank you. :)

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 02:09 PM
Very close matchup but I'm about to vote for Ebbs if Redrum keeps trying to say Deron Williams is at worst an average defender in an all-time.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 02:21 PM
Very close matchup but I'm about to vote for Ebbs if Redrum keeps trying to say Deron Williams is at worst an average defender in an all-time.

:laugh:

Fine! In any event though, he will be "hidden" on Battier. :p

Sadds The Gr8
06-04-2016, 02:29 PM
Very close matchup but I'm about to vote for Ebbs if Redrum keeps trying to say Deron Williams is at worst an average defender in an all-time.

lol

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 03:21 PM
I think RedRum is selling a good schtick. But like these games X will give Y a hard time because blah, blah, is outdated.

Basketball just isn't that simple and in reality never has been. I'm not playing hero ball every possession, Drexler and Leonard aren't going to try and take Pippen and Leonard to the hoop every damn time they have the ball.

I'll make a few arguments as to why we win this series.

9/10x the team with the best player wins in the playoff series. Hakeem is by far the best player in this series.

Prime Hakeem vs. Prime Ewing happened and it wasn't pretty. Two evenly matched teams, it went to seven games.

Ewing averaged 18.9 PPG, with a .390 TS%. Hakeem averaged 26 PPG .556 TS%. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1994-nba-finals-knicks-vs-rockets.html)

I mean, RR is trying to sell you on this Ewing will get his and is a tough matchup, I don't want to have these arguments but that's piss in the wind. Ewing played in the bigger market with better media coverage but no one in history hmms and haws over Ewing and Hakeem. It's a clear win for us.

X-factor not franchise player

RR wants to talk usage, well Carmelo Anthony's role has changed. Carmelo Anthony has played some of his best basketball at the four. In the past Melo has been asked to carry a team, that's not his job here.

Melo is our third option, his usage will reflect that and no can knock how valuable he is as a scorer. He doesn't have to facilitate, the offense won't live or die based on him dropping 30.

If you try and claim Melo couldn't possibly thrive as a third option, he's selfish, blah, blah... Then I counter with, why did Anthony play the best ball of his career in the olympics? Melo is invaluable when he's allowed to score and not asked to do everything else.

He's squeezed tight between one of the best perimeter defender we've seen in Battier, and maybe the GOAT defensive player in Hakeem.

The Point Guards

Deron Williams isn't a liability but Mark Price is? Could we at least be fair? Mark Price is the best shooter in the series, in a game where spacing is a big thing having the best outside shooter is a good thing right?

Neither is a good defender but Price would be more of a factor in this series than Deron. Price is playing on or off-ball, he's knocking down shots. Deron is probably running the PnR because that's what he was best at, and yet I'm not switching. Hakeem will stick Ewing. Keeping the ball in Deron's hands is a win for me.


The worst starter on either team

This is round two of the playoffs, Rasheed Wallace is a blessing for EVP. Despite his impressive prime numbers, Sheed was a pure headcase. When things get tight, when the games get hot you have a mental liability.

I feel like my team has better chemistry, clearer rolls, and would thrive better as a unit.

Benches

I know no one on PSD cares about benches but my god my bench is a 1,000x better. If I lose I lose, but I feel I have the better team.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 04:26 PM
Gotta agree with NYK here. I feel like this is a case of the "White guy who's bad on defense and isn't athletic." Sometimes the eye test proves the stats wrong.

Depends whose eye test it is and if the person knows what the player was supposed to be doing on defense i.e. there were some instances in game 1 where it looked like Lebron wasn't guarding Dray but that was intentional because the Cavs were ok giving 3s to Dray. That's obviously something simple that some people can pick up on (others won't) but there can be more complicated instances. That's why I said it depends on whose eye test.

Also, the eye test can deceive if you're just watching a game or 2. That player might've had a really bad game on defense but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad defensive player. You have to consistently watch the player.

Also, using highlight packages to determine defense can also be bad because honestly, you can put together a highlight package of just about any player not trying on defense. Having charted upwards of 70-80 games this year, I saw numerous good defenders not bother to contest layups in transition when they were in position (mostly because you risk getting a foul which can be a bigger issue than 2 random points).

But I do agree with you about the white guy whose bad on d and isn't athletic stereotype. But iirc, Price was regarded as a bad defender in his day, probably due to that stereotype. I do also agree that defensive stats back then sucked because you didn't even have plus-minus stats back then, which at least show whether you're making a positive or negative impact by being on the court. Only thing you had was steals, blocks and whether your team was good on D or not.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 04:31 PM
9/10x the team with the best player wins in the playoff series. Hakeem is by far the best player in this series.

Lets pretend this is a true statistic; this must be one of those times then. I think what makes the ATRD so fun is because someone could have the last pick (like I did) but still make a contending team. Sure, people who have the fortune of having a top 10 definitely get an advantage most of the time, this clearly isn't one of them.


Prime Hakeem vs. Prime Ewing happened and it wasn't pretty. Two evenly matched teams, it went to seven games.

Ewing averaged 18.9 PPG, with a .390 TS%. Hakeem averaged 26 PPG .556 TS%. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1994-nba-finals-knicks-vs-rockets.html)

I mean, RR is trying to sell you on this Ewing will get his and is a tough matchup, I don't want to have these arguments but that's piss in the wind. Ewing played in the bigger market with better media coverage but no one in history hmms and haws over Ewing and Hakeem. It's a clear win for us.

I don't need to try hard to sell the fact Ewing carried the Knicks with John Starks as his number 2 guy. Or the fact that if Starks didn't shoot 2/18 in game 7, Hakeem would missing a ring.

Ewing didn't have the teammates that Manson Family has. Ewing/Tyson/Sheed will make life a lot more difficult than the 94' Finals Hakeem.


X-factor not franchise player

RR wants to talk usage, well Carmelo Anthony's role has changed. Carmelo Anthony has played some of his best basketball at the four. In the past Melo has been asked to carry a team, that's not his job here.

Melo is our third option, his usage will reflect that and no can knock how valuable he is as a scorer. He doesn't have to facilitate, the offense won't live or die based on him dropping 30.

If you try and claim Melo couldn't possibly thrive as a third option, he's selfish, blah, blah... Then I counter with, why did Anthony play the best ball of his career in the olympics? Melo is invaluable when he's allowed to score and not asked to do everything else.

He's squeezed tight between one of the best perimeter defender we've seen in Battier, and maybe the GOAT defensive player in Hakeem.

So you want to talk about Melo having a really good year at the 4. Yes, offensively, he had a career season. It's interesting you leave out the playoff numbers though. I would too if he was below .500 ts%. You also forget to mention that statistically, Melo had his worst years on the defensive end playing the 4. Only having 1 perimeter defender in Battier, you need better defense, not more inefficient shooting. Melo will get beat in the post by a much bigger Sheed.


The Point Guards

Deron Williams isn't a liability but Mark Price is? Could we at least be fair? Mark Price is the best shooter in the series, in a game where spacing is a big thing having the best outside shooter is a good thing right?

Neither is a good defender but Price would be more of a factor in this series than Deron. Price is playing on or off-ball, he's knocking down shots. Deron is probably running the PnR because that's what he was best at, and yet I'm not switching. Hakeem will stick Ewing. Keeping the ball in Deron's hands is a win for me.

So you ignored regular season and especially the postseason stats and make a statement that "Price is the best shooter in the series"? In Price's 3 year prime, he plummeted from 3 point range (33.7%). You expect Price to be the bigger factor when Kawhi will be guarding him primarily? You asked to be fair earlier... Deron gets to rest on defense with Battier while Price's ankles would get broken trying to keep up with Deron's crossover and post ups. You also conveniently don't consider Deron was the more efficient scorer (on higher volume) in the playoffs as well; Price scored below his regular season average, while Deron increases it to over 22 ppg, 43% from 3.


The worst starter on either team


This is round two of the playoffs, Rasheed Wallace is a blessing for EVP. Despite his impressive prime numbers, Sheed was a pure headcase. When things get tight, when the games get hot you have a mental liability.

I feel like my team has better chemistry, clearer rolls, and would thrive better as a unit.

I think he fits in perfectly with Manson Family Serial Killers then... lol

The truth is, he is going to bully the hell out of Melo if he is played at the 4.

The ironic thing is, Melo could be a decent starter if put on the right team. You can't just say "oh, yeah... he has the highest usage, well um... his role changes... yeah". That's like saying, "Well, James Harden isn't asked to score 30 points a game, so he is going to be an above average defender now." I could possibly buy it if Melo had ACTUAL team success when he played the 4, but he never did...

Battier would be your weakest starter in my opinion. You want to talk about benches... Battier isn't far from Sean Elliott... Elliott shot better from 3, scored way more, and he was a good defender for the Spurs. Granted, Battier was the better defender, he doesn't have much, if anything else, on Elliott.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 04:34 PM
I said my piece, RR you said yours. But your write up reads, "my team is better because I want to win."

Sheed is going to bully Melo lmao....

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 04:38 PM
I said my piece, RR you said yours. But your write up reads, "my team is better because I want to win."

Sheed is going to bully Melo lmao....

I actually used stats/head-to-head numbers if you look at the first page. :(

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 04:44 PM
9/10x the team with the best player wins in the playoff series.


Really interesting matchup here but I gotta say, I don't agree with this. And I don't think you actually believe this either. One word to disprove this: Lebron. How many series has he been the best player but lost? Pretty much every Finals series he's lost. There's also all the pre-90s series MJ played in. Just seems like I could name a lot of instances where this isn't true.

That said, I don't really see how that applies in this series or really, in this re-draft. None of the teams are outrageously more talented or less talented than any others with a few exceptions so I suppose it makes some sense. But you could also just as easily argue matchups matter. I know no one ever guards any one player all the time but if you're just running post ups and iso's, then the matchups kinda do matter. Can Ewing guard Hakeem 1 on 1 is definitely an important question in this series. I doubt he could which means RR has to double Hakeem and opens up opportunities for ebbs other guys to move the ball around and find the open guy. On the other end, I 100% buy Hakeem guarding Ewing 1 on 1 in post up situations.

What's RR's offense like? Also, I think he's missing a huge adjustment in this series that could tilt it in his favor. At the moment, I'm not a fan of Sheed on Carmelo. That's something ebbs would take advantage of. And while I'm not the biggest Melo fan (and unlike others, I'm not going to assume FIBA Melo shows up in an NBA game), he definitely could attack Sheed on the perimeter.

Also, Battier's awesome, way better than the # of all-d teams he has.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 04:52 PM
Only Price vs. only Deron seems irrelevant because I'm guessing both guys are running a lot of pick and roll and/or being used as a spot up shooter? So really it should be how does RR or ebbs defend Price + his pick and roll partner vs. Deron and his pick and roll partner. And regarding the spot ups and off screen shots, can both price and deron keep up with each other off ball? Actually, would Deron even be a good off ball player? I feel like he wouldn't.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 05:08 PM
Only Price vs. only Deron seems irrelevant because I'm guessing both guys are running a lot of pick and roll and/or being used as a spot up shooter? So really it should be how does RR or ebbs defend Price + his pick and roll partner vs. Deron and his pick and roll partner. And regarding the spot ups and off screen shots, can both price and deron keep up with each other off ball? Actually, would Deron even be a good off ball player? I feel like he wouldn't.

Fortunately for Manson Family, Kawhi will primarily be on Price. I don't see it a viable option for Price and battier to play pnr, so that leaves 3 other elite defenders could be in play with whoever Price goes with. Kawhi is one of the best pnr defenders... Not too worried.

Deron shot 43.2% from 3 in his playoff prime. He was assisted on over 54% of the shots. He could definitely play off the ball. Manson Family has great passers as well. I just want to exploit Price being 6'0 and 170 lbs by crossing over and posting up with Deron 6'3 200 lbs.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 05:12 PM
Deron's playoff prime is like what? 15-20 games lol

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 05:25 PM
Ugh, to everyone: STOP USING PLAYOFF 3PT% as a reliable indicator of shooting. You guys realize how long it takes for 3pt shooting to stabilize? 750 attempts. (http://nyloncalculus.com/2014/08/29/long-take-three-point-shooting-stabilize/) 15-20 games of Deron in the playoffs shouldn't be used to judge his 3pt shooting. It's a terrible sample size for a shot that is highly variable. I mean Danny Green in 2014 shot 47.5% from 3 in 20+ games. Then the following year against the Clippers he shot 30%. It's just really dumb to judge players by their playoff 3pt% and not even factor in their regular season shooting.

At the very least, show me 750+ 3pt attempts in the playoffs until I take it seriously. Then maybe you have something in regards to the guy shooting better in the playoffs.

Edit: I know I used it in my matchup thread lmao. But that was more in a sarcastic manner in response to LGs Love's 2pt%. I don't actually think Love or Kyrie being 8th or 9th in career playoff 3pt% is relevant at all. Totally useless stat which I posted to match LG's useless stat.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 05:27 PM
Fortunately for Manson Family, Kawhi will primarily be on Price. I don't see it a viable option for Price and battier to play pnr, so that leaves 3 other elite defenders could be in play with whoever Price goes with. Kawhi is one of the best pnr defenders... Not too worried.


I do agree you are well set up to defend ebbs pick and rolls. Kawhi is one of the best.

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 05:55 PM
Deron's playoff prime is like what? 15-20 games lol

Actually, 27 games... 2 shorter than Price's but with noticeably superior numbers in just about every statistical category (Price can hang his hat on being the superior free throw shooter...).

Redrum187
06-04-2016, 05:58 PM
Ugh, to everyone: STOP USING PLAYOFF 3PT% as a reliable indicator of shooting. You guys realize how long it takes for 3pt shooting to stabilize? 750 attempts. (http://nyloncalculus.com/2014/08/29/long-take-three-point-shooting-stabilize/) 15-20 games of Deron in the playoffs shouldn't be used to judge his 3pt shooting.

It was more than 15-20 games, but fair point. When we look at Price's career averages in the postseason, we notice that the trend continues/is true. He is a 33.7% shooter. Granted, he still isn't at the 750 3pa/3pm range, but the theory should get some validity in that Price regresses quite noticeably in the postseason.

xxplayerxx23
06-04-2016, 11:09 PM
Leonard on Melo
Pippen on Clyde
A trio of 3 guys Ewing Tyson and sheed on Hakeem. Yeah terrible matchup for ebbs. I think we win in 6.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2016, 01:52 AM
I was close to voting for Ebbs but I gotta go with RR's team. If Ebbs played had a real PF instead of Melo, it would make a big difference for this series. Hakeem would make this series very close but that Kawhi-Pippen perimeter defense will limit the support Hakeem will need.

Bruno
06-05-2016, 06:35 AM
I'd go M.F. because of the wings, but I think Ebbs bench makes up for the marginal gap between the starters in this series. Prime Arenas in the 2011 James Harden role? it goes seven and Ebbs has HCA. this would be fun to watch, two great teams.

Ebbs
06-05-2016, 10:36 AM
Thanks Bruno.

Cheers to those who actually note the bench is a clear disparity.

Disappointing 4/5ths the GMs haven't even voted...

Player thanks for yoir input, as an assistant of the other team I understand you believe your team is better. Glad to see you thought hard on your response though. That may be the most work I've seen you put into a redraft so bravo.

Sadds The Gr8
06-05-2016, 11:29 AM
Thanks Bruno.

Cheers to those who actually note the bench is a clear disparity.

Disappointing 4/5ths the GMs haven't even voted...

Player thanks for yoir input, as an assistant of the other team I understand you believe your team is better. Glad to see you thought hard on your response though. That may be the most work I've seen you put into a redraft so bravo.
:laugh2:

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2016, 11:49 AM
:laugh2:

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2016, 12:15 PM
Thanks Bruno.

Cheers to those who actually note the bench is a clear disparity.

Disappointing 4/5ths the GMs haven't even voted...

Player thanks for yoir input, as an assistant of the other team I understand you believe your team is better. Glad to see you thought hard on your response though. That may be the most work I've seen you put into a redraft so bravo.


Lol. That's the reason I play the behind the scenes role. I let RR deal with the bs you guys bring into these games God forbid someone have an opinion that differs from you or some of those guys in there. That's cool call me an assistant that's fine if you think RR did this without any help that's cool. All I know is Melo Clyde meet Leonard and Pippen lock up. Good luck on the rest of the voting though.

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2016, 12:16 PM
Ebbs maybe if/when you lose this matchup you could go on Twitter and put it up, it'll make you feel better about yourself

Sadds The Gr8
06-05-2016, 01:00 PM
Ebbs maybe if/when you lose this matchup you could go on Twitter and put it up, it'll make you feel better about yourself

I think he was losing on twitter yesterday

Catfish1314
06-05-2016, 01:46 PM
So if Ewing, Chandler, and Wallace is a serviceable combination to keep Olajuwon in check, why can't Olajuwon and Oakley do the same with Ewing?

The match-up at four would be a circus. On the infrequent occasions Wallace goes to post up Anthony on the block, he has the size advantage. When Anthony isolates on the perimeter or the elbow, he has the mobility advantage. I'm not a Carmelo fan at all but Wallace is not equipped to be the power forward who takes full advantage of him in the playoffs. Let's not pretend Sheed was super efficient in the playoffs anyway. Come postseason, his shooting numbers became even more erratic and his rebounding was still average for a player of his size. And those were almost always in supporting roles. Would he be more productive with Ewing to play off as opposed to Ben Wallace? Probably, but what would Anthony be like without having to carry a team and instead play off Olajuwon, Drexler, and Price?

Manson is superior defensively but Ebbs has homecourt advantage and the best player. The benches are not close on paper. Ebbs has a far more versatile second unit led by Arenas and he has more flexibility with his lineups and pace of play.

Redrum187
06-05-2016, 02:06 PM
So if Ewing, Chandler, and Wallace is a serviceable combination to keep Olajuwon in check, why can't Olajuwon and Oakley do the same with Ewing?

The match-up at four would be a circus. On the infrequent occasions Wallace goes to post up Anthony on the block, he has the size advantage. When Anthony isolates on the perimeter or the elbow, he has the mobility advantage. I'm not a Carmelo fan at all but Wallace is not equipped to be the power forward who takes full advantage of him in the playoffs. Let's not pretend Sheed was super efficient in the playoffs anyway. Come postseason, his shooting numbers became even more erratic and his rebounding was still average for a player of his size. And those were almost always in supporting roles. Would he be more productive with Ewing to play off as opposed to Ben Wallace? Probably, but what would Anthony be like without having to carry a team and instead play off Olajuwon, Drexler, and Price?

Manson is superior defensively but Ebbs has homecourt advantage and the best player. The benches are not close on paper. Ebbs has a far more versatile second unit led by Arenas and he has more flexibility with his lineups and pace of play.

Hakeem would definitely make life difficult for Ewing. Clearly Hakeem has the edge in that matchup. It's just that the rest of his team gets shut down, in addition to Tyson/Sheed/Ewing giving Hakeem hell on defense is going to make this series excruciatingly difficult for vanity project.

You talk about Sheed's inefficiency yet conveniently leave out Carmelo Anthony's prime playoff numbers at PF... under .500 ts% at 38% usage. Furthermore, you didn't even read the matchup where we put Kawhi/Pippen on Melo most of the time. Kawhi also made Melo shoot 40% FG in their head-to-head... Deron will be guarding Price and Battier throughout the game which allows for Sheed to cover stationary perimeter Battier for stretches. An no... Battier won't be burning Sheed on offense, he was good for roughly 8 points a game.


what would Anthony be like without having to carry a team and instead play off Olajuwon, Drexler, and Price?

No one knows, he's NEVER been a player who was utilized in a supportive role. He has always had usage Russell Westbrook would blush at. The fact of the matter is, Carmelo is his highest usage guy and will be taking away shots from Hakeem... which is a good thing if your Manson Family. Carmelo isn't the type of player who thrives by playing off ball and in a supporting role... he neither defends or shoots well enough to be a legitimate supplementary role. He's a cancer to the Vanity Project for what they truly need... More defense and efficient offense.

Ebbs
06-05-2016, 02:36 PM
I think he was losing on twitter yesterday

I'm getting killed on Twitter lol.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 02:38 PM
The insane thing about this matchup is that Ebbs team is either my 2nd or 3rd favorite team in the redraft but I just hate how they match-up here. Ebbs should pound the Finals matchup here to try and knock Ewing down but the reality is the trio of Ewing/Sheed/Tyson would do an admirable job together on Hakeem. Then Kawhi/Pippen on Drexler/Melo is the perfect duo to slow down his wings. Plus Deron can hide on Battier and just worry about running the offense. By the slightest of margins I'm going Manson family here.
Yeah not a fan of RRs team but he does matchup really well

Lol. That's the reason I play the behind the scenes role. I let RR deal with the bs you guys bring into these games God forbid someone have an opinion that differs from you or some of those guys in there. That's cool call me an assistant that's fine if you think RR did this without any help that's cool. All I know is Melo Clyde meet Leonard and Pippen lock up. Good luck on the rest of the voting though.

I thought Kawhi was on Price, according to your CO at least.



Great matchup here, but for reasons posted in the thread and particularly Catfishs point above give me Ebbs in 7. Add my vote for Winterfell (can't vote bc on phone)


Although deep down it would be great to see Ebbs lose because I'm tired of seeing him go far in these lol

Catfish1314
06-05-2016, 03:46 PM
Hakeem would definitely make life difficult for Ewing. Clearly Hakeem has the edge in that matchup. It's just that the rest of his team gets shut down, in addition to Tyson/Sheed/Ewing giving Hakeem hell on defense is going to make this series excruciatingly difficult for vanity project.

You talk about Sheed's inefficiency yet conveniently leave out Carmelo Anthony's prime playoff numbers at PF... under .500 ts% at 38% usage. Furthermore, you didn't even read the matchup where we put Kawhi/Pippen on Melo most of the time. Kawhi also made Melo shoot 40% FG in their head-to-head... Deron will be guarding Price and Battier throughout the game which allows for Sheed to cover stationary perimeter Battier for stretches. An no... Battier won't be burning Sheed on offense, he was good for roughly 8 points a game.

I conveniently left out nothing. Inefficiency under duress while carrying an enormous scoring load is different from inefficiency in a supporting role. Sheed was largely in a supporting role during the bulk of his postseason career and his shooting numbers fluctuated quite a bit. He'll be in a supporting role on your team as well. No harm in that, but it was part of my point. I was careful not to straight up label him inefficient, but Melo's smaller role on Ebbs team translates into not forcibly attacking against superior competition. His role would still be significant offensively as next to Drexler, he is the most reliable shot creator from the outside. Not overwhelming but significant.


No one knows, he's NEVER been a player who was utilized in a supportive role. He has always had usage Russell Westbrook would blush at. The fact of the matter is, Carmelo is his highest usage guy and will be taking away shots from Hakeem... which is a good thing if your Manson Family. Carmelo isn't the type of player who thrives by playing off ball and in a supporting role... he neither defends or shoots well enough to be a legitimate supplementary role. He's a cancer to the Vanity Project for what they truly need... More defense and efficient offense.

As I said I can't envision a scenario in which Anthony plays exclusively or even primarily off the ball, even surrounded by this talent. Drexler, Anthony, Arenas are his primary creators off the dribble; guys who can break down defenses. Undoubtedly the team is built around Hakeem, but having primary, secondary, and tertiary creators is still important in a game so loaded with talented rosters.

You're right; no one knows for sure. But I've provided perfectly valid points as to why I suspect Anthony would function well on this team. And that's one of several reasons I picked them to win. I like your team fine and it looks like you'll advance, but I favored Ebbs in this matchup.

Ebbs
06-05-2016, 03:46 PM
Cheers Shammy, the knowledgeable posters supporting me woot.

:laugh: at not wanting me to go far.

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2016, 03:54 PM
Yeah not a fan of RRs team but he does matchup really well


I thought Kawhi was on Price, according to your CO at least.



Great matchup here, but for reasons posted in the thread and particularly Catfishs point above give me Ebbs in 7. Add my vote for Winterfell (can't vote bc on phone)


Although deep down it would be great to see Ebbs lose because I'm tired of seeing him go far in these lol


It don't matter ebbs just caught me with his side **** that he try's to do because he's down by 5 votes

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2016, 04:07 PM
Cheers Shammy, the knowledgeable posters supporting me woot.

:laugh: at not wanting me to go far.



Looking at our votes I'd say there's some pretty respected GMs :shrug:

Jets012
06-05-2016, 04:12 PM
Lol. That's the reason I play the behind the scenes role. I let RR deal with the bs you guys bring into these games God forbid someone have an opinion that differs from you or some of those guys in there. That's cool call me an assistant that's fine if you think RR did this without any help that's cool. All I know is Melo Clyde meet Leonard and Pippen lock up. Good luck on the rest of the voting though.

So cool he had to say it twice!

The_Jamal
06-05-2016, 04:22 PM
Going ebbs. Ebbs has the best player and the 2 best offensive players in this series. And while the wings of Manson are quality and would make life difficult, I trust the better team construction of Ebbs to pull through, especially with HCA. I also think Melo on Sheed is a big mismatch in Ebbs favor.

roshan3ai
06-05-2016, 05:08 PM
Going ebbs. Ebbs has the best player and the 2 best offensive players in this series. And while the wings of Manson are quality and would make life difficult, I trust the better team construction of Ebbs to pull through, especially with HCA. I also think Melo on Sheed is a big mismatch in Ebbs favor.

Yeah I think I gotta go with Ebbs team too. I also like Ebbs' late game options better than RR in a close series like this.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 10:27 PM
Yeah not a fan of RRs team but he does matchup really well


I thought Kawhi was on Price, according to your CO at least.



Great matchup here, but for reasons posted in the thread and particularly Catfishs point above give me Ebbs in 7. Add my vote for Winterfell (can't vote bc on phone)


Although deep down it would be great to see Ebbs lose because I'm tired of seeing him go far in these lol

just got home, added my vote for Winterfell.


I do want to say, i've given RR's team a lot of criticism but he matches up so well here. Wouldn't be surprised if he wins this series

Ebbs
06-05-2016, 11:00 PM
Sad to see me losing. . .


Best player - check.
Deeper team - check.
Best shooter - check.
More versatile team - check.

I concede they have better perimeter defense, but come one man.

Redrum187
06-05-2016, 11:43 PM
Sad to see me losing. . .


Best player - check.
Deeper team - check.
Best shooter - check.
More versatile team - check.

I concede they have better perimeter defense, but come one man.

Yes, your team has all the check marks indeed.

Best player defended by multiple quality defenders - check
Surround best player with 4 one-dimension players - check
Have too many chefs in the kitchen - check
Start chucking and inefficient SF who has the highest usage of all players at PF - check
Concede that Kawhi made Melo shoot 40% and Pippen made Clyde shoot 40% in the playoffs - check
Overstate the 5-10 minutes your bench will see the floor to make up for terrible match up - check
Best shooter who regresses tremendously in the playoffs (see 3 year prime playoff stats) - check
Actual best playoff shooter scores 8 points a game and is also the only wing defender - check

NYKalltheway
06-06-2016, 07:27 AM
This is a case study of underrated vs overrated and overrated vs underrated.

Mark Price, severely underrated.
Clyde Drexler, underrated to a large extent.
Shane Battier, overrated.
Carmelo Anthony, underrated and overrated at the same time (paradox player).
Hakeem, everyone loves Hakeem.

Same applies to the bench, but I'm not gonna talk about those guys as they don't exist in the eyes of the average voter.

Deron Williams, overrated.
Kawhi Leonard, severely overrated.
Scottie Pippen, slightly overrated.
Rasheed Wallace, underrated.
Patrick Ewing, underrated.

I think this shows why the votes are the way they are.
Other than Ewing, the Manson Family does not have a designtated scorer. And we all know Ewing will be restricted by Hakeem on both ends. And this comes from a guy with a custom made Ewing avatar for the last 6 years.
On the other hand, Melo, Hakeem and Drexler can all go 30+ if they have to. Ebbs' team's problem is the balance of the team but the quality is definitely there.

I can't see Manson's defense taking them over a 7 game series. It's too much to ask. If this was a one-off, you could probably argue Manson here if Drexler and Hakeem have an off day and Melo is shut down. But that's not gonna happen more than 4 times in 7.
The above statement comes from probably PSD's #1 defense fan (maybe Catfish competes for this but I'll take the crown :p )

Sadds The Gr8
06-06-2016, 11:36 AM
this is a pretty big comeback

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:40 AM
I'm thinking about changing my vote. Is it too late?

Ebbs
06-06-2016, 12:06 PM
I'm thinking about changing my vote. Is it too late?

It's never too late.


People!

KOB, Jam, Rosh, CF, Shammy have seen the light! Come on!

Catfish1314
06-06-2016, 01:38 PM
Comebacks used to be on 10-15 vote deficits. Voter population just gets smaller and smaller.

When I voted, it was 9-4 Manson. So Ebbs couldn't have been down by more than six unless Manson just got all the votes right out of the gate.

Ebbs
06-06-2016, 02:00 PM
Comebacks used to be on 10-15 vote deficits. Voter population just gets smaller and smaller.

When I voted, it was 9-4 Manson. So Ebbs couldn't have been down by more than six unless Manson just got all the votes right out of the gate.

I was down 6-1. But yea PSD is horrid lol.

These games were always a time waste but a 20 vote jury is garbage. Especially when the forum is so pre-conditioned to vote a certain way or for/against certain players.

Ebbs
06-06-2016, 06:34 PM
Well played RR, best of luck in the next round.

Redrum187
06-06-2016, 06:35 PM
Well played RR, best of luck in the next round.

Good game Ebbs. Thanks.

Bruno
06-06-2016, 07:42 PM
no shame in losing Ebbs. RedRum has incredible wings.

i usually vote within 5 seconds of seeing lineups. I had to think about this for at least 10 (edit: minutes), by far my hardest vote in redrafts. you guys built great teams.

mightybosstone
06-06-2016, 11:25 PM
Definitely would have voted for Ebbs' squad here, but it doesn't seem like it would have made a difference. Any team with Ewing as its No. 1 would have a ***** of a time justifying to me how they would beat a team with Hakeem. Hell, his roster had the two best players in the entire series in my eyes. From a talent level, it's just a superior basketball team. And for as much hate as Melo is getting at the 4, people REALLY underestimated his value as a stretch 4.

Sadds The Gr8
06-06-2016, 11:25 PM
I was down 6-1. But yea PSD is horrid lol.

These games were always a time waste but a 20 vote jury is garbage. Especially when the forum is so pre-conditioned to vote a certain way or for/against certain players.


Comebacks used to be on 10-15 vote deficits. Voter population just gets smaller and smaller.

When I voted, it was 9-4 Manson. So Ebbs couldn't have been down by more than six unless Manson just got all the votes right out of the gate.
I thought I saw 8-1

Ebbs
06-07-2016, 11:23 AM
Definitely would have voted for Ebbs' squad here, but it doesn't seem like it would have made a difference. Any team with Ewing as its No. 1 would have a ***** of a time justifying to me how they would beat a team with Hakeem. Hell, his roster had the two best players in the entire series in my eyes. From a talent level, it's just a superior basketball team. And for as much hate as Melo is getting at the 4, people REALLY underestimated his value as a stretch 4.

Cheers.

I feel like Melo didn't get the credit he warranted as a third option matchup nightmare.

We actually were talking about it in the chatzy one day, Drexler has a legit case over Pippen but it is what it is.

It euh, what it euuh

Redrum187
06-07-2016, 01:30 PM
Cheers.

I feel like Melo didn't get the credit he warranted as a third option matchup nightmare.

We actually were talking about it in the chatzy one day, Drexler has a legit case over Pippen but it is what it is.

It euh, what it euuh

Personally, I thought Melo was getting way too much credit. Remember in the first round people were saying Melo would kill KG at the 4... I nearly laughed my *** off. I didn't want to do the other GM's job and point out how KG actually use to play some SF... he was definitely quick enough to guard Melo and bend him over his knee on offense.

I legitimately said to myself... Why draft Barkley, Dirk, Malone, etc... just wait for the 4th round and draft Melo since he anal rapes traditional PF's according to some in the thread.

Ebbs
06-07-2016, 02:18 PM
Personally, I thought Melo was getting way too much credit. Remember in the first round people were saying Melo would kill KG at the 4... I nearly laughed my *** off. I didn't want to do the other GM's job and point out how KG actually use to play some SF... he was definitely quick enough to guard Melo and bend him over his knee on offense.

I legitimately said to myself... Why draft Barkley, Dirk, Malone, etc... just wait for the 4th round and draft Melo since he anal rapes traditional PF's according to some in the thread.

Well you didn't read very well. Garnett would do a great job on Melo... The whole ****ing point is KG would be running around outside and Hakeem would get Lanier one on one in the post.

That's what GM's were talking about, not that Melo was a mismatch.

roshan3ai
06-07-2016, 05:11 PM
Why draft Magic Johnson in the first when you can take Deron Williams in the sixth and get elite offense AND great defense?

Shammyguy3
06-07-2016, 06:08 PM
Well you didn't read very well. Garnett would do a great job on Melo... The whole ****ing point is KG would be running around outside and Hakeem would get Lanier one on one in the post.

That's what GM's were talking about, not that Melo was a mismatch.

yeah, the point was that KG would be on the perimeter more than you'd want and that leaves Lanier guarding the interior on his own against guys like Hakeem and Clyde driving the paint

Shammyguy3
06-07-2016, 06:08 PM
Why draft Magic Johnson in the first when you can take Deron Williams in the sixth and get elite offense AND great defense?

trade out of the first, draft Russell and trade up for Deron. BOOM!

Shammyguy3
06-07-2016, 06:17 PM
even though i said i could see RR's team winning this series, doesn't make it any less shocking that it happened. He matched up as well as you could but how did so many people NOT question his players? I agree that Hakeem/Drexler is far superior than Ewing/Pippen. Then it comes down to Price/Battier/Melo to Deron/Kawhi/Sheed. Is the talent level between those three-somes enough to overcome the huge disparity in each team's Batman/Robin? No way. Throw on top that Ebbs' bench can outplay those guys

Arenas/Greer/Jones/Oakley/Divac
vs
Deron/Richardson/Kawhi/Sheed/Tyson