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View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting 2nd Round - 1 v 5 (ABA)



valade16
06-03-2016, 06:34 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll. (NOTE: votes by accounts with less than 100 votes will not count)

(1) Seaside Seagulls

PG: Mookie Blaylock | Damian Lillard
SG: Jerry West | Kyle Korver
SF: Grant Hill | Cedric Maxwell
PF: Jack Sikma | Jerry Lucas
C: Moses Malone | Otis Thorpe

vs.

(5) Rosh

PG: Gary Payton (37) | Sidney Moncrief (11) | BJ Armstrong
SG: Sidney Moncrief (24) | John Starks (24)
SF: Detlef Shrempf (30) | Stephen Jackson (18)
PF: Tim Duncan (33) | AC Green (15)
C: Marcus Camby (24) | Mark Eaton (20) | Tim Duncan (4)

Lucky.
06-03-2016, 06:48 PM
My two favorite teams from the ABA conference here.

valade16
06-03-2016, 07:03 PM
Congratulations to Rosh for making it to the 2nd Round. He really improved his team via trades, however I still think I would prevail here.

My basic arguments are this:

1. While his team is very talented defensively, it simply doesn't have the offense to keep up with my team. Aside from the fact that my starting lineup has way more offensive firepower than his (while also being good on defense), his bench is nearly devoid of scorers. Stephen Jackson and John Starks are his best scorers off the bench, and neither is very good in an All-Time game. So he doesn't have any help for his starting offense, which also features a subpar scorer (Camby).

2. Both of our team features very C-styled big men. This allows me to have both Sikma and Moses take turns guarding Duncan (or doubling as necessary) while the other one takes somewhat of a break defensively on Camby/Eaton. Jack Sikma was a good defender who twice led the league in Defensive Win Shares and also made an All-NBA Defensive team. This is especially helpful for Moses, since he will be free to focus his energy on offense.

3. His team features two very good defenders, and I imagine he'll want them on West and Hill, the problem is his other starter is Detlef Schrempf, who was not good defensively, guarding Mookie Blaylock. Mookie is way too quick for Schrempf to guard, he would penetrate the defense at will. If he elects to have GP/Squid on Mookie/West then Grant Hill will have no problem getting around Schrempf and driving to the basket. Some might think this would be problematic for me however my next point is:

4. Duncan and Camby won't be able to crowd the paint against penetration because Jack Sikma was an excellent midrange shooter for a big man (he once led the league in FT% and when he started taking 3's he hit them at a 34% rate). So either Duncan or Camby is going to have to go out and guard him. If his other big decides to step up he'll be leaving Moses Malone, the greatest offensive rebounding big in NBA history, to grab the board and score.

5. Offensively my team features a big 3 that are all complimentary. Moses scores down low, West shoots from the outside and Grant Hill slashes to the basket. They are capable of playing half-court or getting out in transition with Hill, West and Mookie.

In conclusion, while his team is good defensively, my team is too versatile offensively, and is also good enough defensively, to keep his team from scoring enough points to beat mine.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2016, 08:19 PM
Rosh really matches up well here

Quinnsanity
06-03-2016, 09:56 PM
Valade's better, Rosh matches up very well. I'll let some debate happen before I vote.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2016, 09:58 PM
Rosh's team is probably one of my favourite this whole game and I wouldn't have ranked them 5th if I were to rank our confence. Valade's team is talented though. I'll wait for some debate though.

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 10:14 AM
It's amazing how these 2nd round matchups are mixing talents. Moncrief/Payton to slow down West? Duncan to outplay Moses? Tough matchup for Valade. I'm going with Rosh here. I just love his elite defense and Detlef was an elite sniper who has built in chemistry with Payton. 1-4 are all capable of going off and know how to pass and score.

valade16
06-04-2016, 10:20 AM
It's amazing how these 2nd round matchups are mixing talents. Moncrief/Payton to slow down West? Duncan to outplay Moses? Tough matchup for Valade. I'm going with Rosh here. I just love his elite defense and Detlef was an elite sniper who has built in chemistry with Payton. 1-4 are all capable of going off and know how to pass and score.

So are my 1-5. And my bench has way more scoring, he has near zero scoring off his bench. Not to mention I have defenders for all of his primary scorers and initiators (mookie/west for GP/Squid and Sikma/Moses for Duncan). He does not for mine.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 11:44 AM
First off, if Detlef was not a good defender then you can't really claim Hill or Moses to be anything above average. Schrempf is a very solid defender who was the 3 on those really good defensive teams in Seattle. He will definitely hold his own in this game and he's going to see some time on Grant Hill, along with some Squid. Hill in 95-97 (his first three years, but part of his prime given he was an all-star), had the following shooting nights versus Schrempf:

21 PTS | 6-15 | 3 TO
16 PTS | 5-15 | 4 TO
10 PTS | 3-14 | 3 TO
15 PTS | 4-12 | 5 TO
20 PTS | 6-17 | 8 TO
27 PTS | 10-23 | 1 TO

Grant Hill will have his hands full if he has to take the reigns of this offense considering we have four top defenders at their respective positions in the starting lineup. This is the best defensive team in the game and we are confident our guards and bigs can really limit Valade's.

Grant Hill was so valuable because of his all-around ability to pass, score, and rebound but if his teammates are being hounded in this game, he'll have to take a large scoring burden. I'm willing to let that happen considering Hill's TS% in his prime was only 54%.

Squid is the perfect hustle player to guard Jerry West out on the perimeter and chase him around screens. Michael Jordan had this to say about Moncrief: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it." With either Payton and Squid both can match up very well against West and they will both see alot of time versus him in this series, ensuring a rough series for West.

Payton would also be hell for Mookie considering Mookie had bad shot selection and was prone to shoot his team out of games. Mookie was an all-defensive player but it was largely due to the fact he had good anticipation and would get steals. When matched up man-to-man versus the 6-4 Payton, he's going to have his hands full. We should definitely be able to get into our offense much better than Valade can get into his, considering our backcourt defensively.


As for the big men, we have three elite big men to throw at Moses. DPOY Camby will start on Moses and we'll see Duncan on Moses for spurs as well as Eaton on Moses for parts of the game. This will also ensure a long series for Moses considering these defenders are all historically great defenders and considering they all have different frames and strengths defensively.


The biggest reason we win this matchup though, is Tim Duncan. Who is supposed to stop Timmy D? Jack Sickma was a solid defender but he's not a stopper. He's a one time all-defensive member in his 14 year career, that's pretty underwhelming for the guy who's supposed to limit the best PF of all-time. Moses Malone, the guy who had a positive DPM only TWICE in his 22 year career, sure as hell ain't stopping Timmy D.

The difference in this series is that we have answers for all of their top options, yet they have no answers for our best player. Doubling Duncan would be a disaster considering Schrempf is a great shooter and a very willing passer, Squid and GP are both very good scorers and passers, and Camby can atleast finish near the rim and dominate the boards if Moses goes to help on Duncan.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 11:53 AM
Also, offensively, we need to give this team more credit. Payton isn't just a great defender, he averaged 21 PPG and 7 APG and led the league in OBPM twice. Sidney Moncrief averaged 21 PPG and 4.5 assists on an absurd 60% TS% and led the league in OBPM once. These are two of the most complete guards to play the game.

Schempf is a great fourth option for this game considering he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective and is an efficient scorer (17.8 PPG on 61.4% TS%), great shooter (43% 3P%), and willing passer (4.3 APG).

And Tim Duncan was the first option of multiple finals teams that were also dominant defensively. This is his type of team, he can take the scoring burden and produce, especially in a matchup like this where the opposing team doesn't have a real answer to shut him down.

valade16
06-04-2016, 01:09 PM
First off, if Detlef was not a good defender then you can't really claim Hill or Moses to be anything above average. Schrempf is a very solid defender who was the 3 on those really good defensive teams in Seattle. He will definitely hold his own in this game and he's going to see some time on Grant Hill, along with some Squid. Hill in 95-97 (his first three years, but part of his prime given he was an all-star), had the following shooting nights versus Schrempf:

21 PTS | 6-15 | 3 TO
16 PTS | 5-15 | 4 TO
10 PTS | 3-14 | 3 TO
15 PTS | 4-12 | 5 TO
20 PTS | 6-17 | 8 TO
27 PTS | 10-23 | 1 TO

Grant Hill will have his hands full if he has to take the reigns of this offense considering we have four top defenders at their respective positions in the starting lineup. This is the best defensive team in the game and we are confident our guards and bigs can really limit Valade's.

Grant Hill was so valuable because of his all-around ability to pass, score, and rebound but if his teammates are being hounded in this game, he'll have to take a large scoring burden. I'm willing to let that happen considering Hill's TS% in his prime was only 54%.

Squid is the perfect hustle player to guard Jerry West out on the perimeter and chase him around screens. Michael Jordan had this to say about Moncrief: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it." With either Payton and Squid both can match up very well against West and they will both see alot of time versus him in this series, ensuring a rough series for West.

Payton would also be hell for Mookie considering Mookie had bad shot selection and was prone to shoot his team out of games. Mookie was an all-defensive player but it was largely due to the fact he had good anticipation and would get steals. When matched up man-to-man versus the 6-4 Payton, he's going to have his hands full. We should definitely be able to get into our offense much better than Valade can get into his, considering our backcourt defensively.

As for the big men, we have three elite big men to throw at Moses. DPOY Camby will start on Moses and we'll see Duncan on Moses for spurs as well as Eaton on Moses for parts of the game. This will also ensure a long series for Moses considering these defenders are all historically great defenders and considering they all have different frames and strengths defensively.

The biggest reason we win this matchup though, is Tim Duncan. Who is supposed to stop Timmy D? Jack Sickma was a solid defender but he's not a stopper. He's a one time all-defensive member in his 14 year career, that's pretty underwhelming for the guy who's supposed to limit the best PF of all-time. Moses Malone, the guy who had a positive DPM only TWICE in his 22 year career, sure as hell ain't stopping Timmy D.

The difference in this series is that we have answers for all of their top options, yet they have no answers for our best player. Doubling Duncan would be a disaster considering Schrempf is a great shooter and a very willing passer, Squid and GP are both very good scorers and passers, and Camby can atleast finish near the rim and dominate the boards if Moses goes to help on Duncan.

1st Bolded: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hillgr01&p2=schrede01

Grant Hill still scores more. Not only that but his points per shot are still 1.25, which is certainly not inefficient. Grant Hill would win that matchup and since his team is desperate for offense outside Duncan, he seems to really damper Schrempfs' ability to score offensively.

2nd Bolded: If you think Squid is going to out-hustle or out-hound West, you clearly don't know Jerry West.

http://www.nba.com/history/legends/jerry-west/index.html

Equally legendary was West's tolerance for pain. Not blessed with great size, strength, or dribbling ability, West made up for these deficiencies with pure hustle and an apparent lack of regard for his body. West would hound GP or Squid just as much as they him, whichever you want to put on him it's clear: Jerry West would win that matchup.

3rd Bolded: Here is their head to head:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=blaylmo01

Yes, GP outplayed Mookie, but that's your 2nd best player outplaying my 5th best. Not only that, Gary Payton only averaged 17.9 PPG against Mookie. In fact, his PPS against Mookie is worse than Hill's against Schrempf (1.16). Also, Mookie still managed 37.7% from deep against Payton, so it's not like he wouldn't still be able to do what I need him to do. Not to mention looking at Gary Payton's scoring games against Mookie, the top 4 were in late 99 or 2000. That was when Mookie was at the tail end of his career.

4th Bolded: Malone still scored over 20 PPG against Eaton even in the twilight of his career. And Camby's biggest weakness as a defender was against stronger C's that would take advantage of his thin frame and bully him down low. That is exactly what Moses does.

So you have Duncan "going off", ok but for how much? Duncan has never averaged 30+ PPG in a playoff series in his career. So the most he can go off for is 29 PPG (and that's only if you think Sikma/Moses would do badly against him, which they wouldn't). So while he's doing that, Squid is being guarded by West and Payton and Schrempf are both scoring well below their peak averages against my defenders, and we know Camby/Eaton is near non-existent offense. And you have nobody to come in off the bench and score for you.

The idea that Duncan would massively outplay Moses is also erroneous. Is he better? Yes. But he wouldn't destroy that matchup. You say that Moses isn't going to be able to defend Duncan? Moses Malone outscored Kareem in the 1983 Finals and outrebounded him a whopping 18 to 7. So if he did that to Kareem when it mattered most, I don't see how Duncan is going to massively outplay Moses.

So you have Duncan scoring and... nobody else. And you think Duncan can single handedly outscore a team with Moses/West/Hill and Jerry Lucas and Lillard off the bench? I just don't think so.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 02:05 PM
1st Bolded: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hillgr01&p2=schrede01

Grant Hill still scores more. Not only that but his points per shot are still 1.25, which is certainly not inefficient. Grant Hill would win that matchup and since his team is desperate for offense outside Duncan, he seems to really damper Schrempfs' ability to score offensively.

Points per shot is a stupid statistic, how can you just ignore FT attempts in a statistic like they're free field goal attempts? Hill's TS% in their matchups was 51%. That's not good.

Schrempf's TS%? 64%.


2nd Bolded: If you think Squid is going to out-hustle or out-hound West, you clearly don't know Jerry West.

http://www.nba.com/history/legends/jerry-west/index.html

Equally legendary was West's tolerance for pain. Not blessed with great size, strength, or dribbling ability, West made up for these deficiencies with pure hustle and an apparent lack of regard for his body. West would hound GP or Squid just as much as they him, whichever you want to put on him it's clear: Jerry West would win that matchup.

Sure, if this was a one to one matchup that would be true. But this is a team game, and your team has a lot of damn mouths to feed. Hill's usage in his prime was 29%. Moses? 28%. Both of those guys need the ball in their hands, if you keep the ball in Hill's hands then West is mostly an off-ball jump shooter and if it's in West's hands then you really aren't utilizing Hill too well because he's not a great floor spacer.



3rd Bolded: Here is their head to head:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=blaylmo01

Yes, GP outplayed Mookie, but that's your 2nd best player outplaying my 5th best. Not only that, Gary Payton only averaged 17.9 PPG against Mookie. In fact, his PPS against Mookie is worse than Hill's against Schrempf (1.16). Also, Mookie still managed 37.7% from deep against Payton, so it's not like he wouldn't still be able to do what I need him to do. Not to mention looking at Gary Payton's scoring games against Mookie, the top 4 were in late 99 or 2000. That was when Mookie was at the tail end of his career.

Seems like you're cherry picking some stats here. We both used 1994-1997 for our PG's primes. In those six matchups, Mookie averaged 13 PPG sporting a sexy 49.5% TS% and turning the ball over 3.67 times per game. He did shoot almost 36% from 3. But he had games where he went 1-6, 1-8, 1-5 and 2-6 from three and in those games he turned it over 5, 4, 5, and 6 times respectively. These are the types of games that Payton can force out of his opponents and really sway the matchup in a 7 game series.

Payton averaged 19 PPG, 7.7 APG with a 55% TS%. He shot 39% from deep and only turned it over 2.67 times per game. I think Payton handily won that matchup and by forcing Mookie into these horrible games, he'll really hurt your spacing and offensive rhythm.


4th Bolded: Malone still scored over 20 PPG against Eaton even in the twilight of his career. And Camby's biggest weakness as a defender was against stronger C's that would take advantage of his thin frame and bully him down low. That is exactly what Moses does.

Why bring up Malone's stats at the twilight of his career when this is a game of primes? Eaton and Malone's primes overlapped. In their matchups from 1982-1985, Eaton held Malone to under 50% shooting almost every game. Malone went 12-27, 3-11, 6-17, 5-13, 8-19, and 9-17. I think he faired pretty damn well against Malone.

Camby would have trouble with a guy like Wilt or Shaq, but Moses isn't a bulldozer. He weighs 215 pounds, Camby weighs 220. Eaton, Camby and Duncan will all be guarding Moses in spurts also, we have three amazing defenders to throw at him if someone doesn't fair too well or gets in foul trouble.


So you have Duncan "going off", ok but for how much? Duncan has never averaged 30+ PPG in a playoff series in his career. So the most he can go off for is 29 PPG (and that's only if you think Sikma/Moses would do badly against him, which they wouldn't). So while he's doing that, Squid is being guarded by West and Payton and Schrempf are both scoring well below their peak averages against my defenders, and we know Camby/Eaton is near non-existent offense. And you have nobody to come in off the bench and score for you.

The idea that Duncan would massively outplay Moses is also erroneous. Is he better? Yes. But he wouldn't destroy that matchup. You say that Moses isn't going to be able to defend Duncan? Moses Malone outscored Kareem in the 1983 Finals and outrebounded him a whopping 18 to 7. So if he did that to Kareem when it mattered most, I don't see how Duncan is going to massively outplay Moses.

So you have Duncan scoring and... nobody else. And you think Duncan can single handedly outscore a team with Moses/West/Hill and Jerry Lucas and Lillard off the bench? I just don't think so.

Well you're oversimplifying it by just pointing to points per game without considering pace of play from different eras. Duncan's Points per 100 possessions in his prime is 32.6 PPG in the regular season and 31.7 PPG in the postseason. Moses's regular season average per 100 possessions was 32.5 PPG and his postseason was 29.5 PPG. Now are you gonna try to tell me that Duncan can't take over a game offensively?

Starks is a shooter off the bench who won 6MOY and is extremely well suited for the role. Stephen Jackson averaged 20 PPG in his prime and brings some physicality off the bench as well as some shooting. AC Green plays extremely well in his role in limited minutes as well. These are role players who excel at their roles, not number one options who are put on the bench and expected to give you the same production in limited touches and limited minutes.

I proved to you that Schrempf faired well against Hill and would do so in this matchup. Blaylock isn't doing much to limit Payton but Payton is going to force Blaylock into some awful nights. And you have no answer for Tim Duncan with very below average defense for an all-time in the post. Tim Duncan doesn't have to score 40 PPG because he can pass out of a double team to a group who can shoot, slash, rebound and pass with the best of them. I've got an answer for your best but you don't for mine and that's why I win this matchup.

valade16
06-04-2016, 03:08 PM
Points per shot is a stupid statistic, how can you just ignore FT attempts in a statistic like they're free field goal attempts? Hill's TS% in their matchups was 51%. That's not good.

Schrempf's TS%? 64%.

Sure, if this was a one to one matchup that would be true. But this is a team game, and your team has a lot of damn mouths to feed. Hill's usage in his prime was 29%. Moses? 28%. Both of those guys need the ball in their hands, if you keep the ball in Hill's hands then West is mostly an off-ball jump shooter and if it's in West's hands then you really aren't utilizing Hill too well because he's not a great floor spacer.

Seems like you're cherry picking some stats here. We both used 1994-1997 for our PG's primes. In those six matchups, Mookie averaged 13 PPG sporting a sexy 49.5% TS% and turning the ball over 3.67 times per game. He did shoot almost 36% from 3. But he had games where he went 1-6, 1-8, 1-5 and 2-6 from three and in those games he turned it over 5, 4, 5, and 6 times respectively. These are the types of games that Payton can force out of his opponents and really sway the matchup in a 7 game series.

Payton averaged 19 PPG, 7.7 APG with a 55% TS%. He shot 39% from deep and only turned it over 2.67 times per game. I think Payton handily won that matchup and by forcing Mookie into these horrible games, he'll really hurt your spacing and offensive rhythm.

Why bring up Malone's stats at the twilight of his career when this is a game of primes? Eaton and Malone's primes overlapped. In their matchups from 1982-1985, Eaton held Malone to under 50% shooting almost every game. Malone went 12-27, 3-11, 6-17, 5-13, 8-19, and 9-17. I think he faired pretty damn well against Malone.

Camby would have trouble with a guy like Wilt or Shaq, but Moses isn't a bulldozer. He weighs 215 pounds, Camby weighs 220. Eaton, Camby and Duncan will all be guarding Moses in spurts also, we have three amazing defenders to throw at him if someone doesn't fair too well or gets in foul trouble.

Well you're oversimplifying it by just pointing to points per game without considering pace of play from different eras. Duncan's Points per 100 possessions in his prime is 32.6 PPG in the regular season and 31.7 PPG in the postseason. Moses's regular season average per 100 possessions was 32.5 PPG and his postseason was 29.5 PPG. Now are you gonna try to tell me that Duncan can't take over a game offensively?

Starks is a shooter off the bench who won 6MOY and is extremely well suited for the role. Stephen Jackson averaged 20 PPG in his prime and brings some physicality off the bench as well as some shooting. AC Green plays extremely well in his role in limited minutes as well. These are role players who excel at their roles, not number one options who are put on the bench and expected to give you the same production in limited touches and limited minutes.

I proved to you that Schrempf faired well against Hill and would do so in this matchup. Blaylock isn't doing much to limit Payton but Payton is going to force Blaylock into some awful nights. And you have no answer for Tim Duncan with very below average defense for an all-time in the post. Tim Duncan doesn't have to score 40 PPG because he can pass out of a double team to a group who can shoot, slash, rebound and pass with the best of them. I've got an answer for your best but you don't for mine and that's why I win this matchup.

First Bolded: I love this argument because you're essentially saying your team is so talented offensively as if that's a bad thing.

How will West or Moses every survive in an offense with other ball dominant players?! Oh wait, that's exactly what they did in their careers. Jerry West played with Elgin Baylor and his title winning season he played with Goodrich, Wilt, and Jim McMillian, who averaged 25.9 PPG, 18.8 PPG and 14.8 PPG. Moses Malone won his title by teaming up with Dr. J and Andrew Toney, who were both ball dominant and actually had high USG% that season to (27.3 for Toney, 25.5 for Dr. J and 26.0 for Moses).

Both of them were able to expertly play and integrate their games with multiple other ball dominant players in their careers. The only one of my 'Big 3' who didn't was Grant Hill, and given that he willingly accepted a lesser role after his injuries and the fact there is zero reason to believe he was selfish, I think he'd perfectly mesh with Moses and West, especially considering his excellence as a passer.

So your argument against me is in fact one for me: my team is simply more talented offensively than yours.

2nd Bolded: I'm not sure you're using 1994-1997 for GP, because he averaged:

18.4 PPG | 7.3 APG | 36% 3PT (that was from their head to head from all games 1994-1997)

Not as impressive as what you cited.

3rd Bolded: That was not Moses prime. Really only the tail end of that was his prime. But Moses did put up some phenomenal games against Eaton throughout the 80's. If you want to try to restrict to the smallest sample size to boost Eaton's efficiency against Moses, you can try but as we see more games head to head, we see Moses dominating.

He had the following games against Eaton:

38 Pts (15/28 FG, 8/9 FT), 21 Rebounds
37 Pts (9/17 FG, 19/22 FT), 16 Rebounds
35 Pts (14/24 FG, 7/9 FT), 15 Rebounds
32 Points (12/27 FG, 8/10 FT), 23 Rebounds

Those all happened from 85-87. If that's how good Moses did against Eaton there, I'll use that. The bottom line is clear, Moses would still get his against Eaton.

4th Bolded: Moses isn't a bulldozer? I'm not sure you know Moses' play style. He beat up Kareem through physicality and being a relentless bulldozer. That is what he was known for. The knock on Kareem is he has difficulty handling stronger more physical C's and that's in large part attributable to Moses...

5th Bolded: It says volumes that you point to Starks as your best bench scorer. He averaged over 15 PPG 3 times his entire career and his career TS% is 51%. Even his peak was only 54%. Not to mention he isn't really someone you should count on in the clutch considering his 2/18 game 7 against the Rockets. Stephen Jackson is not anymore efficient either.

So you have two inefficient not very good scorers as your best scoring options off the bench. You then say you grabbed a bunch of role players who know their role as opposed to star players as if my team doesn't also feature excellent role players and complimentary players. Korver is one of the best 3 point shooters of all-time off my bench. Cedric Maxwell was an excellent role player for Boston in the early 80's. Otis Thorpe was a good role player next to Hakeem, and even Jerry Lucas gladly went to the bench for the 70's Knicks and came up huge for them off the bench.

6th Bolded: You showed head to head and I was stupid enough to fall for the ruse. Schrempf didn't guard Hill in those matchups, Payton did. Unless you think Payton had trouble guarding Lindsey Hunter, Allan Houston and Joe Dumars, who regularly had great shooting nights against Seattle in their head to heads.

So all that did was show how Hill would fare against Payton, who you aren't putting on him, and that Schrempf wouldn't score very much against Hill.

So I'll reiterate, you're trying to argue Tim Duncan and Gary Payton can essentially by themselves outscore my team. It's not going to happen. I have defenders to limit your teams scoring, which you simply can't afford because your team has very little scoring overall.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 03:54 PM
I'm just gonna assume I won all the points you didn't bold because you didn't have a response to them. You can respond to certain lines but that's basically just cherrypicking without context instead of responding to a real argument or post.


First Bolded: I love this argument because you're essentially saying your team is so talented offensively as if that's a bad thing.

How will West or Moses every survive in an offense with other ball dominant players?! Oh wait, that's exactly what they did in their careers. Jerry West played with Elgin Baylor and his title winning season he played with Goodrich, Wilt, and Jim McMillian, who averaged 25.9 PPG, 18.8 PPG and 14.8 PPG. Moses Malone won his title by teaming up with Dr. J and Andrew Toney, who were both ball dominant and actually had high USG% that season to (27.3 for Toney, 25.5 for Dr. J and 26.0 for Moses).

Both of them were able to expertly play and integrate their games with multiple other ball dominant players in their careers. The only one of my 'Big 3' who didn't was Grant Hill, and given that he willingly accepted a lesser role after his injuries and the fact there is zero reason to believe he was selfish, I think he'd perfectly mesh with Moses and West, especially considering his excellence as a passer.

So your argument against me is in fact one for me: my team is simply more talented offensively than yours.

Sure you have a more talented team offensively. But it doesn't fit better than mine, I have a clear pecking order. Your offense isn't a team. It's a bunch of great players whose fit together is far from perfect. Jerry West coexisted with Elgin Baylor, sure but Baylor isn't Grant Hill who basically was a point forward who didn't really have an outside shot.

But sure, let's talk about Jerry West's great championship run. Where he averaged 23 PPG on 22 shots with a 44.5% TS%. He must have really thived with Goodrich, Wilt and McMillan.

I'll concede Moses was able to co-exist even though saying he teamed up with Dr. J is a bit misleading because it was a past his prime 32 year old Erving.


2nd Bolded: I'm not sure you're using 1994-1997 for GP, because he averaged:

18.4 PPG | 7.3 APG | 36% 3PT (that was from their head to head from all games 1994-1997)

Not as impressive as what you cited.

I used all the games from the 1994-1995 season to the 1996-1997 season, which corresponds to both Mookie's and Payton's primes. My numbers were correct.


3rd Bolded: That was not Moses prime. Really only the tail end of that was his prime. But Moses did put up some phenomenal games against Eaton throughout the 80's. If you want to try to restrict to the smallest sample size to boost Eaton's efficiency against Moses, you can try but as we see more games head to head, we see Moses dominating.

He had the following games against Eaton:

38 Pts (15/28 FG, 8/9 FT), 21 Rebounds
37 Pts (9/17 FG, 19/22 FT), 16 Rebounds
35 Pts (14/24 FG, 7/9 FT), 15 Rebounds
32 Points (12/27 FG, 8/10 FT), 23 Rebounds

Those all happened from 85-87. If that's how good Moses did against Eaton there, I'll use that. The bottom line is clear, Moses would still get his against Eaton.


Lol wait you're gonna use a 32 point game and 38 point game from 1985 and earlier and then ignore the ones I mentioned? From 1982-1987, Moses shot under 50% 6 times out of their 10 matchups. In a seven game matchup, I feel confident about putting Eaton on Moses for 15-20 minute periodds.


4th Bolded: Moses isn't a bulldozer? I'm not sure you know Moses' play style. He beat up Kareem through physicality and being a relentless bulldozer. That is what he was known for. The knock on Kareem is he has difficulty handling stronger more physical C's and that's in large part attributable to Moses...


Yeah I think Camby would have trouble with Moses if he had to guard him the whole game. He'd get worn out. But not with the three headed monster I can send his way throughout a seven game series.


5th Bolded: It says volumes that you point to Starks as your best bench scorer. He averaged over 15 PPG 3 times his entire career and his career TS% is 51%. Even his peak was only 54%. Not to mention he isn't really someone you should count on in the clutch considering his 2/18 game 7 against the Rockets. Stephen Jackson is not anymore efficient either.

So you have two inefficient not very good scorers as your best scoring options off the bench. You then say you grabbed a bunch of role players who know their role as opposed to star players as if my team doesn't also feature excellent role players and complimentary players. Korver is one of the best 3 point shooters of all-time off my bench. Cedric Maxwell was an excellent role player for Boston in the early 80's. Otis Thorpe was a good role player next to Hakeem, and even Jerry Lucas gladly went to the bench for the 70's Knicks and came up huge for them off the bench.

Damn must be a rough matchup for you if you gotta write two paragraphs about the benches in this series. Especially considering how you're bragging about guys like Damian Lillard and Kyle Korver who are terrible defenders in this game and couldn't stop a snail from scoring. I think my bench scoring will be fine going against Kyle Korver.


6th Bolded: You showed head to head and I was stupid enough to fall for the ruse. Schrempf didn't guard Hill in those matchups, Payton did. Unless you think Payton had trouble guarding Lindsey Hunter, Allan Houston and Joe Dumars, who regularly had great shooting nights against Seattle in their head to heads.

So all that did was show how Hill would fare against Payton, who you aren't putting on him, and that Schrempf wouldn't score very much against Hill.

Source? If that is true, I will back off that argument but I'm just not sure where you got that info.



So I'll reiterate, you're trying to argue Tim Duncan and Gary Payton can essentially by themselves outscore my team. It's not going to happen. I have defenders to limit your teams scoring, which you simply can't afford because your team has very little scoring overall.

:laugh2: What are you talking about? Where did I say anything remotely close to what you said? Squid, a guy who averaged 21 PPG in his prime on 60% shooting and is a good passer isn't gonna score? How about Schrempf? You just ignore a sniper from deep who is an ideal off ball 4th option in this game? I'm at least glad you realized how wrong you were about Duncan handling the scoring load due to pace and possessions per game, good idea to back off that point.

You have no post defense. You have too many cooks in your kitchen. I have better defenders for your stars than you do for mine. And in a physical battle like this one, I can't imagine picking against Duncan.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 03:55 PM
Jeez five votes? Responding is gonna become pointless if we get 5 votes a day.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 04:00 PM
PSD sucks ***. Valade has a better team. But Rosh has the type of grind out squad that could win any series any year. Like a much, much better version of the current Grizzlies.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 04:07 PM
PSD sucks ***. Valade has a better team. But Rosh has the type of grind out squad that could win any series any year. Like a much, much better version of the current Grizzlies.

With the best player in the series.

"9/10x the team with the best player wins in the playoff series."- Ebbs

valade16
06-04-2016, 04:15 PM
^ not at a computer so I'll have to respond without much editing.

First, my team is a bad fit? The only people who can say that are those ignorant of my players. The primary difference with Baylor and Hill is Hill was more versatile and scored less, if anything he'd be a better ft with West than Baylor.

And Dr. J was not past his prime in 83 lol, he won the league MVP as recently as 81 and in 82 he averaged 25 pts on 59% TS with a 26 PER. He was not past his prime, Moses co-existed with a still in prime Dr. J...

And yes West didn't shoot very well in the playoffs during that title run, but why not show the regular season #'s when West had excellent efficiency and the team started 39-3 enroute to the best regular season up to that point in NBA History? Yeah, he sure struggled with so many mouths to feed...

You say that Lillard and Korver couldn't guard a snail? Well my point is with your bench they don't have to. You easily have the worst offensive bench in this game. Heck your bench wouldn't even be a playoff team in the actual NBA :laugh2:

Going back to you being ignorant of my players, I think the ultimate proof is that you said I have no post defense. How laughably misguided is that? Sikma and Moses were both good post defenders. If we're going to throw out absurdiities that are blatantly false you have no post offense, both statements are equally ridiculous...

You can't both use the H2H of Schrempf and then say he'll help scoring. He averaged 13 PPG against Hill. So that plus the next to zero Camby/Eaton are going to get and the near 0 your bench gets and Duncan/Payton/Squid now have to average near 75 points a game for you to have a chance. It's just not going to happen.

You want to use TS% half the time but not for Moses against Eaton, what was Moses TS% against Eaton in those contests?

This is clearly a rough matchup for you if you're going to resort to empty falsehoods like my team has no post defense or it doesn't fit...

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 05:29 PM
^ not at a computer so I'll have to respond without much editing.

First, my team is a bad fit? The only people who can say that are those ignorant of my players. The primary difference with Baylor and Hill is Hill was more versatile and scored less, if anything he'd be a better ft with West than Baylor.

Hill was a 30% USG% player. He dominated the ball. Baylor wasn't a point forward. Hill was a point forward and his effectiveness came when he dominated the ball. I'd be glad to hear how lethal Hill would be off the ball?


And Dr. J was not past his prime in 83 lol, he won the league MVP as recently as 81 and in 82 he averaged 25 pts on 59% TS with a 26 PER. He was not past his prime, Moses co-existed with a still in prime Dr. J...

Are you just blatantly making up stats now? I'm just talking about his championship year. Dr. J averaged 21 in the regular season and 18 in the playoffs and Dr. J's TS% in the playoffs that year was 49.6%.


And yes West didn't shoot very well in the playoffs during that title run, but why not show the regular season #'s when West had excellent efficiency and the team started 39-3 enroute to the best regular season up to that point in NBA History? Yeah, he sure struggled with so many mouths to feed...

Because it's the playoffs and I couldn't care less about his regular season when he couldn't win a championship for 11 years when there were like 9 teams in the NBA.


You say that Lillard and Korver couldn't guard a snail? Well my point is with your bench they don't have to. You easily have the worst offensive bench in this game. Heck your bench wouldn't even be a playoff team in the actual NBA :laugh2:

Is the goal of the bench here to play their roles well or to be a starting five in the NBA? The scoring off the bench is fine considering the limited minutes the bench plays and considering Squid and Payton's minutes are staggered at the PG position.



Going back to you being ignorant of my players, I think the ultimate proof is that you said I have no post defense. How laughably misguided is that? Sikma and Moses were both good post defenders. If we're going to throw out absurdiities that are blatantly false you have no post offense, both statements are equally ridiculous...
This is an all-time re-draft. If your big men have as many all-defense selections as my bench bigs, then something's wrong. I have the biggest mismatch in this game by far with Duncan being guarded by Sikma or Moses. For this game they're both average post defenders and neither is going to limit Duncan.


You can't both use the H2H of Schrempf and then say he'll help scoring. He averaged 13 PPG against Hill. So that plus the next to zero Camby/Eaton are going to get and the near 0 your bench gets and Duncan/Payton/Squid now have to average near 75 points a game for you to have a chance. It's just not going to happen.

You want to use TS% half the time but not for Moses against Eaton, what was Moses TS% against Eaton in those contests?

This is clearly a rough matchup for you if you're going to resort to empty falsehoods like my team has no post defense or it doesn't fit...

What are you talking about? In those matchups, Schrempf averaged 16 PPG with a 60+% TS%. That's a pretty solid help if you ask me. You're including portland Schrempf who was past his prime.

Moses's TS% against Eaton cumulatively was 54% in those contests. That's fine, but it's not great. The whole point I'm trying to make is that Eaton in spurts of the game can be very effective defending Moses, as he's shown in the past. He's a 7'4 mammoth, I think he's a very good option for 15-20 minutes versus your bulldozer. It's shown in the past with him holding Moses to some rough shooting performances.

I also think my defense keeps these games pretty low scoring while limiting your possessions. It's not like you are gonna stop Payton, Duncan or Schrempf anyways. Don't really see how you came up with the 75 points number either, I can say stupid arbitrary things too. West has to score 100 points versus Squid for you to have a chance. It's just not going to happen!

Your team has average post defense cumulatively, but neither player will really limit a stud. Duncan isn't being limited by Smits or Moses, I just don't see it.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 05:30 PM
This has actually been pretty fun but probably can't continue til later tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully we get more votes though, this is a terrible voter turnout so far.

jon32
06-04-2016, 05:34 PM
Yah tough one but I gotta go Valade on this

Catfish1314
06-04-2016, 07:08 PM
PSD sucks ***. Valade has a better team. But Rosh has the type of grind out squad that could win any series any year. Like a much, much better version of the current Grizzlies.

Add 10-12 muches maybe.

But damn this is another hellacious match-up. Payton and Moncrief could really hound West but a healthy Hill in his prime is a nightmare for Rosh on paper. Moses vs. Duncan would be awesome though. Moses is probably as underrated as any all-time player on PSD.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 02:43 PM
Seaside is my vote. Can't vote on poll bc I'm on my phone but add it to the poll please

The_Jamal
06-05-2016, 04:31 PM
Voting Rosh. Still not sure how he turned his previously ****-storm team into this, but he matches up incredibly well here. Defense is suffocating and he has by far the best player in the series. Eaton-Camby-Duncan on Moses and Squid-GP on West is absolutely unfair.

The Rosh lacks scoring argument is just wrong too. Shrimp and Moncrief are perfectly acceptable 3 and 4 options.

valade16
06-05-2016, 04:45 PM
By far the best player in the series? I knew older guys get disrespected but damn, didn't think it was that bad. Tim Duncan is not by far better than Moses and Jerry West is better than GP by a greater margin than Duncan is over Moses (far greater actually), and prime Grant Hill was better than Squid.

Redrum187
06-05-2016, 09:12 PM
Valade sold me on Rosh not having enough offense. Jackson and Starks (2/18 in game 7 of 1994 Finals) are pretty underwhelming scoring punches on the bench.

I hate voting against Duncan though...

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 10:12 PM
Seaside is my vote. Can't vote on poll bc I'm on my phone but add it to the poll please

just got to my desktop and voted on the poll

valade16
06-06-2016, 09:45 AM
Hill was a 30% USG% player. He dominated the ball. Baylor wasn't a point forward. Hill was a point forward and his effectiveness came when he dominated the ball. I'd be glad to hear how lethal Hill would be off the ball?

Are you just blatantly making up stats now? I'm just talking about his championship year. Dr. J averaged 21 in the regular season and 18 in the playoffs and Dr. J's TS% in the playoffs that year was 49.6%.

Because it's the playoffs and I couldn't care less about his regular season when he couldn't win a championship for 11 years when there were like 9 teams in the NBA.

Is the goal of the bench here to play their roles well or to be a starting five in the NBA? The scoring off the bench is fine considering the limited minutes the bench plays and considering Squid and Payton's minutes are staggered at the PG position.

This is an all-time re-draft. If your big men have as many all-defense selections as my bench bigs, then something's wrong. I have the biggest mismatch in this game by far with Duncan being guarded by Sikma or Moses. For this game they're both average post defenders and neither is going to limit Duncan.

What are you talking about? In those matchups, Schrempf averaged 16 PPG with a 60+% TS%. That's a pretty solid help if you ask me. You're including portland Schrempf who was past his prime.

Moses's TS% against Eaton cumulatively was 54% in those contests. That's fine, but it's not great. The whole point I'm trying to make is that Eaton in spurts of the game can be very effective defending Moses, as he's shown in the past. He's a 7'4 mammoth, I think he's a very good option for 15-20 minutes versus your bulldozer. It's shown in the past with him holding Moses to some rough shooting performances.

I also think my defense keeps these games pretty low scoring while limiting your possessions. It's not like you are gonna stop Payton, Duncan or Schrempf anyways. Don't really see how you came up with the 75 points number either, I can say stupid arbitrary things too. West has to score 100 points versus Squid for you to have a chance. It's just not going to happen!

Your team has average post defense cumulatively, but neither player will really limit a stud. Duncan isn't being limited by Smits or Moses, I just don't see it.

I know you can say stupid arbitrary things because you've done it repeatedly here.

First, you're trying to criticize Jerry West's playoff performances? Can you please google Jerry West before you respond just so you know who he is? He's the only player to win Finals MVP on a losing team. Him and Jordan are the only players to average 40 PPG for an entire playoff run. And you're trying to criticize his playoff resume from one run?

Second, The #'s from Dr. J were from the previous season. You see his PPG go down the year Moses Malone goes to the 76ers and assume it's Dr. J declining? Dr. J's PPG went down because Moses Malone was there. Dr. J was still a premier player in the league at that point (finished 5th in MVP voting and 6th the following year).

Third, Saying my bigs are average defensively in the post just shows how little you know about them. They were both good post defenders. And the idea that Duncan has some sort of mismatch is just wrong considering both Moses and Sikma can double Duncan because you have zero big man offense outside of them. Your bigs at their peaks score a combined 31 PPG. That's with all their minutes. I took their Per36 peak scoring numbers and divided them by the # of minutes in your depth chart, here is how many points they had:

Camby: 9.0 PPG
Green: 5.7 PPG
Eaton: 5.3 PPG

This is an all-time, if all your bigs outside Duncan can't score as many points as one of the my bench bigs, something's wrong. Once you add up Moses, Sikma, Lucas and Thorpe off the bench, even against your defense, my bigs are outscoring yours this series. And my guards/wings are outscoring yours too.

You're trying to say 2 good defensive big men who are free to both guard Duncan because you have zero other big men who can score is a massive mismatch. Well, it's not. You then talk about how little your bench will be on the court anyway so it doesn't matter that they aren't good.

Well your depth chart has John Starks at 24 MPG. Stephen Jackson is at 18 MPG. So for at least half the game John Starks is on the court. That is not good.

This will be my last All-Time Redraft anyway. I felt that older guys were getting disrespected last game but this game it has gone to a completely differently level.

roshan3ai
06-06-2016, 10:39 AM
I know you can say stupid arbitrary things because you've done it repeatedly here.

First, you're trying to criticize Jerry West's playoff performances? Can you please google Jerry West before you respond just so you know who he is? He's the only player to win Finals MVP on a losing team. Him and Jordan are the only players to average 40 PPG for an entire playoff run. And you're trying to criticize his playoff resume from one run?

Jesus you keep putting words in my mouth. You brought up his championship season. I brought up the fact that he actually didn't have a great playoffs that year. Never said anything about his other playoff series, I know he's one of the greatest playoff performers of all time.


Second, The #'s from Dr. J were from the previous season. You see his PPG go down the year Moses Malone goes to the 76ers and assume it's Dr. J declining? Dr. J's PPG went down because Moses Malone was there. Dr. J was still a premier player in the league at that point (finished 5th in MVP voting and 6th the following year).

Concede this point, didn't know he was a top 10 MVP candidate both years, I was wrong there.


Third, Saying my bigs are average defensively in the post just shows how little you know about them. They were both good post defenders. And the idea that Duncan has some sort of mismatch is just wrong considering both Moses and Sikma can double Duncan because you have zero big man offense outside of them. Your bigs at their peaks score a combined 31 PPG. That's with all their minutes. I took their Per36 peak scoring numbers and divided them by the # of minutes in your depth chart, here is how many points they had:

Camby: 9.0 PPG
Green: 5.7 PPG
Eaton: 5.3 PPG

This is an all-time, if all your bigs outside Duncan can't score as many points as one of the my bench bigs, something's wrong. Once you add up Moses, Sikma, Lucas and Thorpe off the bench, even against your defense, my bigs are outscoring yours this series. And my guards/wings are outscoring yours too.

You're trying to say 2 good defensive big men who are free to both guard Duncan because you have zero other big men who can score is a massive mismatch. Well, it's not. You then talk about how little your bench will be on the court anyway so it doesn't matter that they aren't good.

Well your depth chart has John Starks at 24 MPG. Stephen Jackson is at 18 MPG. So for at least half the game John Starks is on the court. That is not good.

This will be my last All-Time Redraft anyway. I felt that older guys were getting disrespected last game but this game it has gone to a completely differently level.

You're arguing offense versus offense and defense versus defense. That's not how basketball is played. You don't match up well here. If you wanna double Duncan, I have three efficient scoring options and willing passers on the floor as well as strong offensive rebounding.

Harping on John Starks playing 24 minutes when he's still not going to be a primary scorer on the floor just doesn't make much sense. All my bench guys are strong physical defenders, they fit my style of play. Starks can shoot from the outside and hit fire, if he's off we can bench him and play BJ Armstrong alongside Payton or Squid.

I'm starting players from like 4 different eras, don't think you can complain about olders guys not getting respect in this matchup. I respond to every part of the post while you cherrypick sentences and bold them and then overreact.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:27 AM
.

valade16
06-06-2016, 11:35 AM
I'm starting players from like 4 different eras, don't think you can complain about olders guys not getting respect in this matchup. I respond to every part of the post while you cherrypick sentences and bold them and then overreact.

4 different eras? Those eras are current, recent and very recent lol. You have 1 starter who played in the 80's or earlier. 4/5 of your players played in the 00's. That's hardly older guys.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:43 AM
The tempo of this series would be critical. In a slow it down half-court game I would give the edge to Rosh. In an uptempo game I would give the edge to Valade. The question is can Valade's guards consistently push the team when guarded by Payton and Squid and with an athletic shotblocker like Camby sprinting back. I don't see how. Plus the more they push the tempo the less that means they will be using Moses and the more they will be relying on guys like Mookie and Hill. Seems like that team needs to play half-court team where Rosh's defense can slow the game down and win one possession at a time. The more I think about it the more I like Rosh's team here.

valade16
06-06-2016, 11:49 AM
The tempo of this series would be critical. In a slow it down half-court game I would give the edge to Rosh. In an uptempo game I would give the edge to Valade. The question is can Valade's guards consistently push the team when guarded by Payton and Squid and with an athletic shotblocker like Camby sprinting back. I don't see how. Plus the more they push the tempo the less that means they will be using Moses and the more they will be relying on guys like Mookie and Hill. Seems like that team needs to play half-court team where Rosh's defense can slow the game down and win one possession at a time. The more I think about it the more I like Rosh's team here.

Shocking.

Hadn't you already voted for them anyway?

roshan3ai
06-06-2016, 12:02 PM
4 different eras? Those eras are current, recent and very recent lol. You have 1 starter who played in the 80's or earlier. 4/5 of your players played in the 00's. That's hardly older guys.

Yeah you're right, it's three eras. Three nineties players, one 2000's and one 80's. Don't really see an issue with that, although I'd maybe want one older guy instead of 90's-2000's, but the fit worked.

valade16
06-06-2016, 12:05 PM
Yeah you're right, it's three eras. Three nineties players, one 2000's and one 80's. Don't really see an issue with that, although I'd maybe want one older guy instead of 90's-2000's, but the fit worked.

Oh, I actually thought it was 4 eras lol. I'm not saying you did it intentionally and I don't blame you since as you said, it was more about the fit as the trades were happening.

The comment wasn't directed entirely at you but at the game in general and overall. Older players are just getting constantly dismissed and disrespected. If I were next year I'd do 1980+ just so people won't be tricked into thinking older players are worth anything and taking them.

roshan3ai
06-06-2016, 12:12 PM
Oh, I actually thought it was 4 eras lol. I'm not saying you did it intentionally and I don't blame you since as you said, it was more about the fit as the trades were happening.

The comment wasn't directed entirely at you but at the game in general and overall. Older players are just getting constantly dismissed and disrespected. If I were next year I'd do 1980+ just so people won't be tricked into thinking older players are worth anything and taking them.

Dominant centers get their due, but alot of the guards and wings won't because they'll hurt spacing and lack of 3 ball stats. I think next time we should try to play the game in a different era instead of the current era, that would be fun. Like play the game in the 1980's or 1990's. I think teams would be viewed very differently with the different rules and styles of play.

valade16
06-06-2016, 12:15 PM
Dominant centers get their due, but alot of the guards and wings won't because they'll hurt spacing and lack of 3 ball stats. I think next time we should try to play the game in a different era instead of the current era, that would be fun. Like play the game in the 1980's or 1990's. I think teams would be viewed very differently with the different rules and styles of play.

While writing the previous post I quickly brainstormed doing 15 year eras instead:

Current
2014-2001
1999-1985
1984-1970
1969-1946

And you have to start 4/5 eras. That was just really quick, haven't looked to see if that solves this dilemma.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 01:30 PM
The tempo of this series would be critical. In a slow it down half-court game I would give the edge to Rosh. In an uptempo game I would give the edge to Valade. The question is can Valade's guards consistently push the team when guarded by Payton and Squid and with an athletic shotblocker like Camby sprinting back. I don't see how. Plus the more they push the tempo the less that means they will be using Moses and the more they will be relying on guys like Mookie and Hill. Seems like that team needs to play half-court team where Rosh's defense can slow the game down and win one possession at a time. The more I think about it the more I like Rosh's team here.

Shocking.

Hadn't you already voted for them anyway?

I was considering changing my mind. Shocking that instead of debating a point against your team you would dodge it with sarcasm. :)

valade16
06-06-2016, 01:46 PM
I was considering changing my mind. Shocking that instead of debating a point against your team you would dodge it with sarcasm. :)

I actually responded to your original post in this thread and you didn't respond, so I figured there'd really be no point in doing so again since your mind is made up.

This was what you said in your original post:

I'm going with Rosh here

And then your next post is again for Rosh. So excuse me if I'm dubious of your claim you were considering changing your mind here. I'd wonder what prompted you to think you were changing your mind or on the fence at all given your posts in the thread.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 02:33 PM
I actually responded to your original post in this thread and you didn't respond, so I figured there'd really be no point in doing so again since your mind is made up.

This was what you said in your original post:

I'm going with Rosh here

And then your next post is again for Rosh. So excuse me if I'm dubious of your claim you were considering changing your mind here. I'd wonder what prompted you to think you were changing your mind or on the fence at all given your posts in the thread.

You have a good team and it's been a couple of days so I was taking a fresh look at things. :)

Same thing with the Ebbs/RR matchup. I went with my gut in both cases and was entertaining myself on my lunch break by looking at the teams again. I tried to think of how the games would actually be played out by the style of each team and in Ebbs case that made me like his team more even though I voted for RR. In this case I realized that the style of play also favors Rosh so I'm going to keep my vote the same.

valade16
06-06-2016, 02:48 PM
You have a good team and it's been a couple of days so I was taking a fresh look at things. :)

Same thing with the Ebbs/RR matchup. I went with my gut in both cases and was entertaining myself on my lunch break by looking at the teams again. I tried to think of how the games would actually be played out by the style of each team and in Ebbs case that made me like his team more even though I voted for RR. In this case I realized that the style of play also favors Rosh so I'm going to keep my vote the same.

Fair enough. I still don't see how his team is going to score more points than mine (which in the end is who wins basketball games). He has next to no scoring from his bigs outside Duncan, who contrary to what he is saying is guarded by 2 good big men in Sikma and Moses. Duncan may outscore Moses in the series, but there's simply no way Duncan/Camby/Eaton/Green outscore Moses/Sikma/Lucas/Thorpe.

So now what is he left with? GP/Squid/Schrempf/Starks/Jackson/Armstrong outscoring West/Hill/Mookie/Lillard/Maxwell/Korver?

It's not like I don't have defenders, I have + defenders at 4 starting positions and the 5th is certainly not a - either. He has a - offensive player in his starting lineup and no + offensive players on his bench.

I'd also like to point out that what everyone said was my biggest weakness (3PT shooting) actually favors me here. He said he was going to use GP's 95-97 as his peak, well during that time he took 3.7 3PTA and made 31.5% of them. Schrempf's highest ever 3PTA for a season is 2.8 and his 3 year peak for 3PT shooting only is 2.6 Attempts.

That's 6.3 total attempts from his starting lineup for a combined 35.6% from deep (and that is with Schrempf's 3 years being when they shortened the 3PT line, he never took 2 or more attempts in any other season).

Mookie by himself took more attempts (7.5) and made them at a higher clip (36.5%) than his best 2 3pt shooting starters combined.

roshan3ai
06-06-2016, 03:19 PM
Fair enough. I still don't see how his team is going to score more points than mine (which in the end is who wins basketball games). He has next to no scoring from his bigs outside Duncan, who contrary to what he is saying is guarded by 2 good big men in Sikma and Moses. Duncan may outscore Moses in the series, but there's simply no way Duncan/Camby/Eaton/Green outscore Moses/Sikma/Lucas/Thorpe.

So now what is he left with? GP/Squid/Schrempf/Starks/Jackson/Armstrong outscoring West/Hill/Mookie/Lillard/Maxwell/Korver?

It's not like I don't have defenders, I have + defenders at 4 starting positions and the 5th is certainly not a - either. He has a - offensive player in his starting lineup and no + offensive players on his bench.

I'd also like to point out that what everyone said was my biggest weakness (3PT shooting) actually favors me here. He said he was going to use GP's 95-97 as his peak, well during that time he took 3.7 3PTA and made 31.5% of them. Schrempf's highest ever 3PTA for a season is 2.8 and his 3 year peak for 3PT shooting only is 2.6 Attempts.

That's 6.3 total attempts from his starting lineup for a combined 35.6% from deep (and that is with Schrempf's 3 years being when they shortened the 3PT line, he never took 2 or more attempts in any other season).

Mookie by himself took more attempts (7.5) and made them at a higher clip (36.5%) than his best 2 3pt shooting starters combined.

How can you use that as a basis for an argument after throwing a tantrum about West not being a 3 point shooter in the lounge? What kind of hypocrisy is that?

Also, during Payton's playoff peak which included a Finals appearance vs MJ, he took 5 threes per game and shot 37% and Schrempf took 3 threes per game and shot 45%. I'd rather have my guys putting up treys versus Mookie and Hill rather than have Mookie chuck versus Payton.

valade16
06-06-2016, 03:42 PM
How can you use that as a basis for an argument after throwing a tantrum about West not being a 3 point shooter in the lounge? What kind of hypocrisy is that?

Also, during Payton's playoff peak which included a Finals appearance vs MJ, he took 5 threes per game and shot 37% and Schrempf took 3 threes per game and shot 45%. I'd rather have my guys putting up treys versus Mookie and Hill rather than have Mookie chuck versus Payton.

How is that hypocrisy? Do you have any older player who was considered an excellent shooter that we don't have 3PT stats for? If anything, West would only add to my 3PT disparity. You have all players who played in the 3PT era and don't have a whole lot of 3PT shooting in your starting lineup.

Also, as PSK said, 3PT shooting normalizes after about 750 shots, one playoff run isn't indicative of a player's 3PT shooting aptitude.

valade16
06-06-2016, 05:32 PM
I need one more vote to tie C'Mon somebody lol

Redrum187
06-06-2016, 06:37 PM
Holy ****!!! Seaside with the clutch 3's at the buzzard!

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:38 PM
4 different eras? Those eras are current, recent and very recent lol. You have 1 starter who played in the 80's or earlier. 4/5 of your players played in the 00's. That's hardly older guys.

I've noticed the golden era for these games is 90s guys and early 00s guys. Its weird because those might be the most iso heavy eras of basketball history.

But I think Moses gets respect on here. Jerry West is a different story. You could argue he's better than Kobe. And yet no one seems to think that. I mean skill wise, what couldn't he do that Kobe does? Numbers wise, he's better. He def gets really underrated.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:46 PM
Dominant centers get their due, but alot of the guards and wings won't because they'll hurt spacing and lack of 3 ball stats. I think next time we should try to play the game in a different era instead of the current era, that would be fun. Like play the game in the 1980's or 1990's. I think teams would be viewed very differently with the different rules and styles of play.

I'd be game for playing with rules in the 80s or 90s era. We have to specify that for sure. I think the biggest issue with the current game is that most people assume w're playing with current era rules. Either way, it's almost a different sport with how different the game is played in a lot of these eras. I suspect if we play with 90s rules, nobody post 04 gets taken because the big question would be how do they handle hand checking.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:49 PM
While writing the previous post I quickly brainstormed doing 15 year eras instead:

Current
2014-2001
1999-1985
1984-1970
1969-1946

And you have to start 4/5 eras. That was just really quick, haven't looked to see if that solves this dilemma.

That doesn't solve the problem if we're still looking for guys who can shoot/space the floor. We'd need to play by different rules i.e. like rosh suggested.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:58 PM
I never know how to treat West in these games. While I agree with the whole discussion in the chatzy that we don't actually know whether West could shoot 3s, I've always been fine considering him as someone who would be able to because I suspect if he played in today's era, he'd be able to make 3s just by practice and repetition and his known ability to shoot. That's of course a guess though. We have no way of knowing. But in a way, that's better than someone who shot like 30% on 800 3s in the 90s. At least with West, there's this myth/guess of him being able to make 3s.

roshan3ai
06-07-2016, 10:32 AM
Congrats Valade, you built a nice roster. Debating was fun, hopefully next few matchups we can get more votes. Disappointed all the GM's aren't voting in every matchup though.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2016, 01:36 PM
I woulda voted for roshe but didnt want to since we in the same conference adn I couoda faced winner
But looks like it wouoldnt have made a difference

Lakers + Giants
06-07-2016, 10:51 PM
I woulda voted for roshe but didnt want to since we in the same conference adn I couoda faced winner
But looks like it wouoldnt have made a difference

Yea, i didnt want to vote much because I didnt want people to think I was voting against them for my own good. Also didn't want a grudge vote against me tbh.

Lucky.
06-08-2016, 09:06 AM
Yea, i didnt want to vote much because I didnt want people to think I was voting against them for my own good. Also didn't want a grudge vote against me tbh.

Can't afford to do that. We have too little votes as is. Every GM has to be voting when they can.