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View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting 2nd Round - 1 v 5 (NBA)



valade16
06-03-2016, 06:29 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll. (NOTE: votes by accounts with less than 100 votes will not count)

(1) La Habra Showtime

PG: Chauncey Billups - Kyrie Irving
SG: Kobe Bryant - Gail Goodrich
SF: Peja Stojakovic - Gerald Wallace
PF: Elton Brand - Paul Millsap
C: Shaquille O'Neal - Bill Cartwright

vs.

(5) Team No Name

PG: Chris Paul - Gus Williams
SG: Michael Cooper - Raja Bell
SF: Kevin Durant - Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Kevin Love - Tom Chambers
C: Dikembe Mutombo - Andrew Bynum

valade16
06-03-2016, 07:09 PM
I'm interested to hear the arguments on this one.

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 07:32 PM
Paul Millsap will not be playing as much in this matchup. Gerald Wallace will see 12 Minutes at the SF spot and 18 Minutes at the PF spot.

Peja will play his usual 36
Brand will play 30.

Obviously this will be done to try to limit KD as much as possible.

Quinnsanity
06-03-2016, 10:07 PM
PSK and Jam take this. I have no earthly idea how La Habra defends Durant. Kobe couldn't do it, not even at his peak. He's not long enough, and he doesn't make up for it with excessive physicality and brute strength like Tony Allen does. Meanwhile Coop/Dikembe are about as deadly matchups for Kobe and Shaq as there is, and I just like the overall construction of that team better. How on earth is that slow *** team defending CP3/Durant PnR's?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2016, 10:13 PM
PSK and Jam take this. I have no earthly idea how La Habra defends Durant. Kobe couldn't do it, not even at his peak. He's not long enough, and he doesn't make up for it with excessive physicality and brute strength like Tony Allen does. Meanwhile Coop/Dikembe are about as deadly matchups for Kobe and Shaq as there is, and I just like the overall construction of that team better. How on earth is that slow *** team defending CP3/Durant PnR's?

Gerald Wallace is playing 30 minutes per game they said to guard Durant. But yea, Shaq/Kobe has though defenders on them. I think Shaq has good numbers against Dikembe though.

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 10:23 PM
PSK and Jam take this. I have no earthly idea how La Habra defends Durant. Kobe couldn't do it, not even at his peak. He's not long enough, and he doesn't make up for it with excessive physicality and brute strength like Tony Allen does. Meanwhile Coop/Dikembe are about as deadly matchups for Kobe and Shaq as there is, and I just like the overall construction of that team better. How on earth is that slow *** team defending CP3/Durant PnR's?

So shaq and kobe will be shut down but KD can't even be slowed down by Gerald Wallace? lmao. What's the point in trying to make my case if you already made up your mind? haha

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 10:28 PM
Honestly no player is going to be able to completely shut down another HOFer consistently, he'll be able to limit them, but not completely shut them down.

Gerald Wallace did an admirable job on KD actually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duranke01&p2=wallage01

If youre gonna say Shaq or Kobe will be shut down then I should be able to say the same about KD here.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 11:00 PM
Gerald Wallace is playing 30 minutes per game they said to guard Durant. But yea, Shaq/Kobe has though defenders on them. I think Shaq has good numbers against Dikembe though.

He actually doesn't: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mutomdi01

Over the 29 games they've played against each other, Shaq's averaging roughly 23.5 ppg on a 54.4% TS%. That won't be enough to beat us especially since as Quinn pointed out, they have no one to really defend KD.

Also whose guarding KD the rest of the time? He'll still go off.

LivinLakers
06-03-2016, 11:07 PM
Gerald Wallace could guard KD. But I think TNN takes this one. Chris Paul and Bynum on the P&R with KD and cooper on the wing would be too much. Plus Shaq was never a good P&R defender.

eDush
06-03-2016, 11:12 PM
PSK and Jam take this. I have no earthly idea how La Habra defends Durant. Kobe couldn't do it, not even at his peak. He's not long enough, and he doesn't make up for it with excessive physicality and brute strength like Tony Allen does. Meanwhile Coop/Dikembe are about as deadly matchups for Kobe and Shaq as there is, and I just like the overall construction of that team better. How on earth is that slow *** team defending CP3/Durant PnR's?
It doesn't matter who guards Durant, we have seen that he will choke in the big games when winning is on the line. Google Durant and Choke will generate tons of links that span back to 2010. That meltdown against the Clippers this season and losing against the Warriors is how his legacy will be remembered...as a choker. While Peja comes up clutch in big games that even Kobe in his prime couldn't stop his sharp shooting. That position along is enough for La Habra spread the floor while Kobe/Shaq won multiple rings together and they have better teammates now. Cp3 won't even give the ball to Durant if he value winning. Finger wag is a ultimate blocker but not against Shaq power dunks! La Habra takes it in 5 :clap:

:dance:

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 11:30 PM
He actually doesn't: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mutomdi01

Over the 29 games they've played against each other, Shaq's averaging roughly 23.5 ppg on a 54.4% TS%. That won't be enough to beat us especially since as Quinn pointed out, they have no one to really defend KD.

Also whose guarding KD the rest of the time? He'll still go off.

True, in the regular season Shaq was "limited" to 21.5 pts when he faced Dikembe. Although Dikembe himself was limited to 7.5 pts. That's still a 14 point difference in the end though.

Meanwhile, Gerald Wallace was able to limit KD the same way Dikembe was able to limit Shaq while Gerald Wallace was still able to get his.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 11:33 PM
Honestly no player is going to be able to completely shut down another HOFer consistently, he'll be able to limit them, but not completely shut them down.

Gerald Wallace did an admirable job on KD actually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duranke01&p2=wallage01

If youre gonna say Shaq or Kobe will be shut down then I should be able to say the same about KD here.

We're not going to claim we can shut down Shaq or Kobe. But we can definitely severely limit both of them.

Also, there's a big difference between Dik, who won 4 DPOYs and Cooper who also won a DPOY (one of the few wings to do so) and Gerald Wallace, whose made a total of 1 all-defensive team. Now I realize all-defensive teams can be really inaccurate at times (like Kobe's) and I'm sure Wallace should've made more but he's still not in the same class of defenders as Cooper or Dik.

Also, Wallace compiled a lot of those numbers vs. young KD. Considering we're using KD's 3-year peak of 12-13 to now (when he's been a much better player), I'm not sure how appropriate those numbers are.

Also, by playing Wallace, you remove a lot of your spacing. If he's playing instead of Peja, you then only have 1 real 3 point shooting threat in Billups. We can then pack the paint and double Shaq. And if you play Wallace instead of Brand, you still lose spacing because Brand can at least hit the mid range shot. Wallace can't. Over his career, he shot 33% from 3-10 feet, 30.7% from 10-16 feet, 35.1% from 10-16 feet and 31.2% from 3. Those splits basically indicate he's a nothing outside of near the basket. So when Wallace is in, we'll just use his defender (which will be mostly KD) to double Shaq and/or Kobe, making life tougher for both of them. And we'll just not guard Wallace, who can't hit anything outside of 3 feet.

Meanwhile, our biggest weakness on defense, Kevin Love has the easiest matchup with Brand. Considering Brand's strength was posting up, which is literally the only thing Love can do positively on defense, we match up well there.

For us on defense, we'll just have our guys matchup with the exact same position. No cross matching is necessary- we have CP3 on Billups, Cooper on Kobe, KD on Peja, Love on Brand and Dik on Shaq. This is a nice advantage for us that we don't have to do any cross matching, unlike LG who does (unless he wants to leave Peja on KD, which would be a disaster).

Also, Shaq's not good in the pick and roll so we'll take advantage of that. He'll be forced to cover in space. Plus, La Habra is a slow team. We'll take advantage of that by getting out and running in transition. Kevin Love outlet passes plus CP3, Coop, KD and Dik in transition. Finally, we'll do some Hack-a-Shaq, which should slow down the La Habra offense while they have no way of slowing down our offense.

Also, while the CP3-KD pick and roll is our primary play, we're happy to run CP3-Dik or KD-Dik pick and rolls to take advantage of Shaq's poor pick and roll defense. We'll also attack Peja by running pick and roll with Cooper who was a good shooter and good passer (averaged 5+ apg a few different years).

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 11:34 PM
Dikembe will be playing the Deandre Jordan role, how is TNN going to score when KD is limited while having nobody that can score in the post? Dikembe won't be scoring, he took 5 shots a game when guarded by Shaq. Then we have Love, who struggles to score as a 3rd option. https://www.yahoo.com/news/tweaked-knee-kevin-love-became-151237367.html

Unless TNN plans to win by shooting lights out from behind the arc or from mid-range, IDK how they plan on beating us.

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 11:52 PM
Also when it comes down to it Shaq and Billups were able to take advantage of their respective match-ups in the playoffs, when it really counted.

PLAYOFFS H2H

Shaq vs Mutombo:

Shaq ( 4 Wins , 1 Loss, 57.3 FG% , 15.2 FTA, .513 FT%, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.4 BPG, 4 TOV, 33 PPG)

Mutombo ( 1 Wins, 4 Loss, 60 FG %, 5.2 FTA, .692 FT%, 12.2 RPG, 0.4 APG, 2.2 BPG, 1 TOV, 16.8 PPG)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mutomdi01#stats_playoffs::none


Billups vs CP3:

Billups (4 Wins 1 Loss, 48.3 FG%, 65.5 3P%, 94.7 FT%, 7.4 APG, 1.2 TOV, 22.6 PPG)

CP3 (1 Wins, 4 Loss, 41.1 FG%, 31.3 3P%, 85.7 FT%, 10.4 APG, 4.8 TOV, 16.6 PPG)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=billuch01&p2=paulch01#stats_playoffs::none

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 11:52 PM
Dikembe will be playing the Deandre Jordan role, how is TNN going to score when KD is limited while having nobody that can score in the post? Dikembe won't be scoring, he took 5 shots a game when guarded by Shaq. Then we have Love, who struggles to score as a 3rd option. https://www.yahoo.com/news/tweaked-knee-kevin-love-became-151237367.html

Unless TNN plans to win by shooting lights out from behind the arc or from mid-range, IDK how they plan on beating us.

Considering Shaq's a bad pick and roll defender, we're happy to run CP3-Dik pick and rolls. Also, in those games, Dik didn't have a point guard like CP3 who could feed him the ball off pick and rolls with excellent lob passes. Part of the reason DJ is so good is basically entirely because of CP3. Now Dik gets to play with CP3. (And KD, whose not a bad passer himself)

Why would KD be limited by Wallace? He's only playing 30 mins a game plus all of those numbers you posted above were from like rookie KD. Peak KD is from 13-16, where Wallace has played him like twice and wasn't that great.

And as we mentioned Wallace is bad on offense outside of 3 feet so we literally don't have to guard him. Can give him the Tony Allen treatment and just double Shaq every time. So now in addition to having to score against Dik, he now has to score against a double team coming from KD. The same applies to Kobe.

Love's been fine as a 3rd option. He's averaging like 18 a game in the playoffs. Also, while he's been bad from 2 this playoffs, he's shooting like 44% from 3 which is amazing. The Cavs have also been like 18 points per 100 possessions worse offensively without Love in the playoffs.

Oh also, we don't have ball-stopping Kyrie killing Love's offense. Love's been great on O when playing with Lebron and no Kyrie (who dribbles the ball for 20 seconds before doing anything). CP3 and KD will both move the ball to him so his efficiency should be able to be even better. And he'll be getting passes from CP3 to set him up.



Unless TNN plans to win by shooting lights out from behind the arc or from mid-range, IDK how they plan on beating us.

Considering we have awesome shooting, we absolutely could do this.

Lakers + Giants
06-03-2016, 11:58 PM
Also, the hack a Shaq would fail miserably considering shaq was still able to make above 50% of his FTs. I would still be getting nearly 1.1 point per possession, which is equivalent to the highest scoring teams in the NBA...

And would you really want to be in foul trouble? Not that you have on option, since Shaq will draw fouls consistently.

Peja and Billups are both 90% FT shooters for their careers, being in foul trouble would be a huge problem...You'd literally be giving us free points.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 12:08 AM
Also when it comes down to it Shaq and Billups were able to take advantage of their respective match-ups in the playoffs, when it really counted.

PLAYOFFS H2H

Shaq vs Mutombo:

Shaq ( 4 Wins , 1 Loss, 57.3 FG% , 15.2 FTA, .513 FT%, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.4 BPG, 4 TOV, 33 PPG)

Mutombo ( 1 Wins, 4 Loss, 60 FG %, 5.2 FTA, .692 FT%, 12.2 RPG, 0.4 APG, 2.2 BPG, 1 TOV, 16.8 PPG)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mutomdi01#stats_playoffs::none

Dik was 34 then. Certainly not in his prime anymore. He also still managed to average 17 ppg in that series at age 34. So what does that say about Shaq's defense?



Billups vs CP3:

Billups (4 Wins 1 Loss, 48.3 FG%, 65.5 3P%, 94.7 FT%, 7.4 APG, 1.2 TOV, 22.6 PPG)

CP3 (1 Wins, 4 Loss, 41.1 FG%, 31.3 3P%, 85.7 FT%, 10.4 APG, 4.8 TOV, 16.6 PPG)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=billuch01&p2=paulch01#stats_playoffs::none

Pretty much the entire Hornets starting 5 was injured in that series (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=Hornets-090430), including CP3 who had a bad knee. Considering that I believe he had knee surgery the following year (which sapped him from some of his explosiveness), don't really see how this is relevant. All players are assumed to be 100% healthy. And basically CP3 and his entire team were injured that year.

The_Jamal
06-04-2016, 01:13 AM
LG doesn't really have a game plan other than posting worthless head to head matchups. And even if he does want to use them, dik controlled shaq pretty damn well. He has yet to explain how he's going to stop the cp3 and kd pnr (because he cant)or how he's going to defend the cp3 dik pnr with shaq having to defend in space. Basically, there isn't a pnr combo that we can use that LG would be able to stop.

Fact is, we have by far the best matchup in the series with kd being defended by Peja and Wallace, who is pretty weak on an all time scale. And even if he is playing Wallace more, he had virtually 0 spacing to where we can pack the paint and make kobe and gerald have to beat us from the perimeter. Chauncey certainly isn't getting space with cp3 on him.

Shaq and kobe is a duo that can't be shut down, but we have 2 of the very few players in nba history that could make their life extremely difficult and force them to work for every play. LG had a talented team, but by taking one of his only consistent floor spacers and scorers outside of kobe and shaq off the floor, he's making it much easier to defend his duo with our 2 dpoys.

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 10:24 AM
hardest matchup. going to keep reading the debate for now.

eDush
06-04-2016, 11:11 AM
allfortennessee.com/2016/05/31/chris-lofton-and-tennessee-basketball-exposed-kevin-durants-choking-tendencies-in-2006/
These are considered big games. One needs to look at clutch vs choke, not just player match ups on best 3 year overall stats. Raising their game to another level on both ends of the court is the key to winning in the all time redraft :clap:

Sadds The Gr8
06-04-2016, 11:59 AM
Havent read the debate but at first glance LG can easily put Peja at the 4 imo. He's big enough to handle Love

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 12:04 PM
What a matchup, I think this is gonna be close. I thought LG had the far-and-away best team in this game but KD is gonna be a matchup nightmare for them. Not really convinced Gerald Wallace is gonna limit him and if Peja has to see time on him, good luck.

PSK and Jam have three amazing defenders at the right spots for this matchup. I'll wait a little bit before deciding on this, definitely a tough matchup.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 12:06 PM
He actually doesn't: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=mutomdi01

Over the 29 games they've played against each other, Shaq's averaging roughly 23.5 ppg on a 54.4% TS%. That won't be enough to beat us especially since as Quinn pointed out, they have no one to really defend KD.

Also whose guarding KD the rest of the time? He'll still go off.

Gotta factor in those playoff stats though. Shaq annihilated him in the playoffs.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:08 PM
Gotta factor in those playoff stats though. Shaq annihilated him in the playoffs.

I actually did factor that in to the 29 games. Also, Dik was 34 by then, isn't that a little unfair? Prime Shaq vs. old *** Dik?

Also, did he really annihilate him when Dik himself scored 17 ppg? And that's with Allen Iverson as his PG. Now you give him a pass first PG in CP3 who can run pick and roll to take advantage of Shaq's bad pick and roll defense and it's reasonable to expect Dik to score even more. If it's say a 10 point gap, we'll take that because KD can more than make that up with everyone La Habra is throwing on him.

Oh plus I think it's fair to assume Shaq would get into foul trouble defending the CP3-Dik pick and roll. Dik had a great free throw rate in his peak (which that series wasn't) and considering Shaq can't defend in space, Dik should draw plenty of fouls himself. And while maybe Dik would also get in foul trouble, if both those guys are exiting the court due to foul trouble, we'll take that as a win for us.

PLUS, as we mentioned, since La Habra is playing Gerald Wallace more, we'll give him the Tony Allen treatment and not guard him outside of 3 feet. He's a really bad jump shooter (posted his splits earlier). So that basically means we can double Shaq. What does La Habra do then? Kick it out to Gerald Wallace jump shots? We'll take the 0.6-0.9 PPP jump shots that Wallace would be taking. And if Shaq does try to draw a foul, he's now facing a double team which means Dik's not always getting the foul.

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 01:29 PM
Cant right now, but I'll respond once I'm on my computer. (In a few hours).

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:33 PM
allfortennessee.com/2016/05/31/chris-lofton-and-tennessee-basketball-exposed-kevin-durants-choking-tendencies-in-2006/
These are considered big games. One needs to look at clutch vs choke, not just player match ups on best 3 year overall stats. Raising their game to another level on both ends of the court is the key to winning in the all time redraft :clap:

Screw it, I'm responding to one of the dumbest posts I've seen on PSD, which is saying a lot. Basically what you are saying is KD not making a shot/playing defense 10 years ago when in college is an example of him not being clutch in the NBA? Wtf? That is very dumb logic reasoning. Your horrible redraft team is making a lot more sense now...

Also, that writer? Dude's a nobody. 560 twitter followers with not one national writer following him. No blue check mark followers either. So he's basically some hack and you're posting his article as if it means something?

Also, while we're talking about playing both ends, how about you factor in the fact that KD basically erased Draymond that entire series and generally spooked the entire GS team from shooting for a lot of that series: https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7

Oh also addressed the KD choking thing here, in much more detail: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:41 PM
Havent read the debate but at first glance LG can easily put Peja at the 4 imo. He's big enough to handle Love

In this scenario, we'll probably move KD over to the 4 (LG now has to cross match while we'd put KD on Peja). As for who we'd put in, we'd have either Bell in or Hedo depending on if we want offense or defense. The great thing about having Wallace in is that it'd allow us to put Hedo in and not worry about his defense. He could hide on Wallace. And now you'd have Peja guarding Hedo, which is also not good.

OR the other alternative is we'd just leave Love in the game, put KD on Peja and have Love "guard" Wallace and by that I mean Love gets to wander around doing whatever he wants since Wallace can't shoot. We'd probably have Love in the paint ready to double Shaq. That removes him from having to guard in space.

roshan3ai
06-04-2016, 02:12 PM
I actually did factor that in to the 29 games. Also, Dik was 34 by then, isn't that a little unfair? Prime Shaq vs. old *** Dik?

Also, did he really annihilate him when Dik himself scored 17 ppg? And that's with Allen Iverson as his PG. Now you give him a pass first PG in CP3 who can run pick and roll to take advantage of Shaq's bad pick and roll defense and it's reasonable to expect Dik to score even more. If it's say a 10 point gap, we'll take that because KD can more than make that up with everyone La Habra is throwing on him.

Oh plus I think it's fair to assume Shaq would get into foul trouble defending the CP3-Dik pick and roll. Dik had a great free throw rate in his peak (which that series wasn't) and considering Shaq can't defend in space, Dik should draw plenty of fouls himself. And while maybe Dik would also get in foul trouble, if both those guys are exiting the court due to foul trouble, we'll take that as a win for us.

PLUS, as we mentioned, since La Habra is playing Gerald Wallace more, we'll give him the Tony Allen treatment and not guard him outside of 3 feet. He's a really bad jump shooter (posted his splits earlier). So that basically means we can double Shaq. What does La Habra do then? Kick it out to Gerald Wallace jump shots? We'll take the 0.6-0.9 PPP jump shots that Wallace would be taking. And if Shaq does try to draw a foul, he's now facing a double team which means Dik's not always getting the foul.
The Gerald Wallace argument I definitely buy. That floor spacing is terrible with him on the floor and it would definitely clog up the paint for them. But I don't really know if it's old *** Dikembe when he won DPOY in 2000-2001 lol.

The one thing I don't know if I can get over in this matchup is the answer for KD though. Like Sadds said, they could put Peja at the 4 and Wallace at the 3. I think that might even win them the matchup. But if LG plays Wallace-Brand with Shaq, it might be a struggle.

Still undecided here

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 02:53 PM
The Gerald Wallace argument I definitely buy. That floor spacing is terrible with him on the floor and it would definitely clog up the paint for them. But I don't really know if it's old *** Dikembe when he won DPOY in 2000-2001 lol.

Fair point I guess. But he did win it back to back in 97 and 98 and I would assume that he was better then just cause he wasn't as old. Plus as we mentioned, Dik got his on offense in that matchup and he'll have a better PG setting up for him (AI was score first whereas CP3 is pass first). And Shaq's going to have to defend the pick and roll which he's not good at. And because Wallace can't space the floor and basically sucks outside of 3 feet, we don't really have to guard him which allows us to send doubles at Shaq.



The one thing I don't know if I can get over in this matchup is the answer for KD though. Like Sadds said, they could put Peja at the 4 and Wallace at the 3. I think that might even win them the matchup. But if LG plays Wallace-Brand with Shaq, it might be a struggle.

Still undecided here

Peja at the 4 presents it's own problems though. I do think because Wallace is so crappy on offense, we can basically leave Love in the game and have him guard Wallace, who requires next to no attention. Then we have KD guard Peja, who probably would struggle with KD's length on closeouts (a lot of people do).

And of course that whole thing hinges on Wallace actually guarding KD well which I would be very very dubious of. Who knows if he can- those matchups LG posted earlier were mostly against rookie KD/young KD. He has to basically hold KD down enough that it's actually worth it for him to be on the court considering how bad he is off ball and the fact that he kills the spacing. He can't even make a midrange shot. He's just crap outside of 3 feet. That works fine if he's not playing off the ball but La Habra is asking him to play off ball.

Also, think about who LG is relying to be his KD stopper vs who we're relying on to be our Shaq/Kobe stoppers. We have TWO DPOYs guarding his best players. Wallace, in his entire career has made one all-defensive team. Now I think he was underrated on that end (he probably should've made more) but even so, you're talking about your run of the mill really good defender vs two guys who were the best defensive players in the league at one point. That's VERY different.

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 03:26 PM
I actually did factor that in to the 29 games. Also, Dik was 34 by then, isn't that a little unfair? Prime Shaq vs. old *** Dik?

Also, did he really annihilate him when Dik himself scored 17 ppg? And that's with Allen Iverson as his PG. Now you give him a pass first PG in CP3 who can run pick and roll to take advantage of Shaq's bad pick and roll defense and it's reasonable to expect Dik to score even more. If it's say a 10 point gap, we'll take that because KD can more than make that up with everyone La Habra is throwing on him.

Oh plus I think it's fair to assume Shaq would get into foul trouble defending the CP3-Dik pick and roll. Dik had a great free throw rate in his peak (which that series wasn't) and considering Shaq can't defend in space, Dik should draw plenty of fouls himself. And while maybe Dik would also get in foul trouble, if both those guys are exiting the court due to foul trouble, we'll take that as a win for us.

PLUS, as we mentioned, since La Habra is playing Gerald Wallace more, we'll give him the Tony Allen treatment and not guard him outside of 3 feet. He's a really bad jump shooter (posted his splits earlier). So that basically means we can double Shaq. What does La Habra do then? Kick it out to Gerald Wallace jump shots? We'll take the 0.6-0.9 PPP jump shots that Wallace would be taking. And if Shaq does try to draw a foul, he's now facing a double team which means Dik's not always getting the foul.

I mean yes, he completely annihilate him when shaq literally doubled dikembe's pts. Sure dikembe got his 17 but shaq got 33... lmao. It worked to perfection for the Lakers, let Mutombo get his at the expense of Iverson. Same will be done here, if Mutombo is getting his at the expense of KD we'll gladly take it. And yes, like Rosh said, he was still a DPOY and Shaq still dominated him. He was able to adjust since it was a series and not just a regular season matchup. If he did that to a DPOY imagine what he would do to an average defender? That's just how dominant Shaq was. Like I said, it's not a "10 point gap" It's 16..

You can say KD would do to Peja but then youre basically making this a Shaq vs KD game. I'll definitely take my chances with that.

I mean, I know it's not completely fair but when it comes down to it, my team was able to get it done when it mattered most. Shaq, Kobe, Billups, and Peja have all been champions. Meanwhile, KD and CP3 always get deep in the playoffs but can never get over the hump. . This is where championship experience is vital and just completely takes over. Especially in a series where I have home-court advantage.

Like I said before, if we want to talk about foul trouble, shaq was able to get 15 FTA per game vs Mutombo in the finals. We're talking about a DPOY here struggling to contain a prime Shaq, youre team will definitely be in foul trouble. And as good as Coop was, Kobe would definitely be able to draw fouls as well and benefit from your team being over the foul limit. I would still also have Billups and Peja, both 90% career FT shooters... Any time your team is over the limit, I would be the beneficiary of many free points.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 03:31 PM
Also, how much defense did Shaq have to play that series? That 76ers team was really defense oriented. So much so that Dikembe was the 2nd leading scorer in that series. Think about that. In this series, he's our 4th or 5th option. Shaq's going to be forced to play way more defense which means his offense will suffer because he'll actually have to try on defense. Likewise, Dikembe is not going to be relied upon for nearly as much offense which means he can focus more on the defensive end.

A better comp for similarity may in fact be Wallace in 2004. Obviously Dik's better on offense but Wallace had 4 other guys who could bring the offense in that series so he could just focus on his defense. The same is kind of true for Dik here. And while we said we'd run some CP3-Dik pick and roll to take advantage of Shaq's poor pick and roll defense, our primary play is still going to be the CP3-KD pick and roll. La Habra has no great way to really defend that. And we have plenty of other pick and roll combos that we could run (such as the CP3-Love pick and roll or KD-Love pick and roll).

Oh finally, Shaq's going to have to run the floor in this series to keep up with us in transition. Isn't that also going to take it's toll on him?

So to recap- Shaq's going to have to defend the pick and roll, which he's not good at, constantly go up against 4 time DPOY AND a 2nd defender because Wallace can't shoot, run up and down in transition to keep up with our guys who can get out and run and be a rim protector against CP3/KD drives (if Brand is no longer playing, that means Shaq has to play more defense. And with Peja at the 4, he basically has to cover for Peja). Sounds like a lot for a guy who admits he was never that well conditioned.

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 03:32 PM
The Gerald Wallace argument I definitely buy. That floor spacing is terrible with him on the floor and it would definitely clog up the paint for them. But I don't really know if it's old *** Dikembe when he won DPOY in 2000-2001 lol.

The one thing I don't know if I can get over in this matchup is the answer for KD though. Like Sadds said, they could put Peja at the 4 and Wallace at the 3. I think that might even win them the matchup. But if LG plays Wallace-Brand with Shaq, it might be a struggle.

Still undecided here

I could easily pull of a lineup of Billups, Kobe, Peja, Wallace and Shaq.

I'd still have spacing and Wallace would still be on KD. Peja would be able to defend KLove, I'll take my chances here, Peja guarding arguably the worst 2 point shooter in NBA playoff history wouldn't be so bad :laugh:, and Peja does what PSK/Jam need Love to do even better. Love will be there to spread the floor, but you can't tell me with a straight face that he would do that better than Peja?

Peja was still hitting 3s at 43% in H2H matchups with KD. He was still making 3.2 Three's a game. KD can hide on Peja, I'll take those 3 Three's a game at that percentage.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 03:37 PM
I really wanted to vote for PSK/Jam's team. But honestly an improved Kobe/Shaq Lakers squad vs. CP3/Durant is just no contest in terms of past success.

There's such a proven track record with L+G's team.

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 03:44 PM
Overall my team is at least able to score in the paint, I can't say the same about TNN. Who's going to score for them in the post? If u want to take Mutombo's 17 ppg, then you have to give Shaq his 33 ppg. Otherwise like I said previously, Mutombo will be playing the Deandre Jordan role, with his 5 FGA per game. Love can't score 2 pointers :laugh2: ( https://www.yahoo.com/news/tweaked-knee-kevin-love-became-151237367.html ). If TNN is content with taking jumpers all game I am too. I trust Kobe and Billups' to defend on the perimeter. And if you move KD to the 4 then even better, won't have a post threat at all. My "slow" team will gladly take that.

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 03:47 PM
I really wanted to vote for PSK/Jam's team. But honestly an improved Kobe/Shaq Lakers squad vs. CP3/Durant is just no contest in terms of past success.

There's such a proven track record with L+G's team.

:nod: Exactly, I got 3 Finals MVPs, As great as TNN is, the cold truth is that they weren't able to win when the lights were at their brightest. Championship pedigree takes over in this series.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 03:59 PM
Who cares how much we score in the post? It's not like we don't have people who can't drive. Both KD and CP3 are good drivers and can get to the FT line. Even Dik was really good at getting to the FT line in his peak (his FT rate was pretty crazy). Also, Kevin Love does have a good post game so I'm not even sure where that's coming from. And if we're going by Kevin Love's 2pt% in the playoffs, how about we look at the fact that he's tied for 9th all-time in career playoff 3pt% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career_p.html), ahead of even Steph Curry and Peja whose only 37.6% from 3 in the playoffs, crappy compared to KLove :laugh2:

Also have you not noticed GS (and Cleveland for that matter) is basically beating everyone by making 3s? Why can't we? I mean 3 > 2 right? And we have way more shooters. So you can take your 2s from Shaq post ups being guarded by 4 time DPOY AND being doubled at the same time while we just bomb away from 3. Oh and we'll get our 2s in transition because your team is too slow.

The_Jamal
06-04-2016, 04:13 PM
Why the hell is Gerald Wallace being given credit for stopping one of the greatest scorers in NBA history? It's beyond frustrating. Meanwhile, we have 2 of the best defensive players ever for Shaq and Kobe (Fair to say both in the top 20) being treated like absolutely nothing.

LG is getting away without having an actual gameplan to stop our team and is just living off posting H-H match-ups (weak ones at that), and the name value of Shaq and Kobe. There's no way Peja could handle Love anywhere on the floor, especially in the post and on the both the offensive and defensive glass. And once again, LG trys to counteract that horrible match-up by posting a limited sample of playoff games (not in his prime) rather than Kevin Love's career of being an incredibly explosive offensive PF.

With Peja at the 4, we'd attack him with post-ups and Cp3-Love PnR's. Peja wouldn't have a prayer at dealing with the strength advantage of Love

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 04:15 PM
Who cares how much we score in the post? It's not like we don't have people who can't drive. Both KD and CP3 are good drivers and can get to the FT line. Even Dik was really good at getting to the FT line in his peak (his FT rate was pretty crazy). Also, Kevin Love does have a good post game so I'm not even sure where that's coming from. And if we're going by Kevin Love's 2pt% in the playoffs, how about we look at the fact that he's tied for 9th all-time in career playoff 3pt% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career_p.html), ahead of even Steph Curry and Peja whose only 37.6% from 3 in the playoffs, crappy compared to KLove :laugh2:

Also have you not noticed GS (and Cleveland for that matter) is basically beating everyone by making 3s? Why can't we? I mean 3 > 2 right? And we have way more shooters. So you can take your 2s from Shaq post ups being guarded by 4 time DPOY AND being doubled at the same time while we just bomb away from 3. Oh and we'll get our 2s in transition because your team is too slow.

I mean, my team was able to get to the line as well. Shaq and Kobe each were able to get 10 FTA per game. While Billups and Peja were able to get 6 FTA per game. I really do think it's fair to say your team would be in foul trouble, and like I've mentioned several times before, my team is the last team you want at the line.

Sure, 3>2, but I'll take my free points at the charity stripe as well. My team will be hitting FTs at a godlike %. That will surely result in an unheard PPP, too much for even a good 3 point shooting team.

Btw, that link you provided also has Kyrie Irving ahead of love. He's on my team as well, so even my bench would benefit from his 3 point shooting :)

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 04:24 PM
Why the hell is Gerald Wallace being given credit for stopping one of the greatest scorers in NBA history? It's beyond frustrating. Meanwhile, we have 2 of the best defensive players ever for Shaq and Kobe (Fair to say both in the top 20) being treated like absolutely nothing.

LG is getting away without having an actual gameplan to stop our team and is just living off posting H-H match-ups (weak ones at that), and the name value of Shaq and Kobe. There's no way Peja could handle Love anywhere on the floor, especially in the post and on the both the offensive and defensive glass. And once again, LG trys to counteract that horrible match-up by posting a limited sample of playoff games (not in his prime) rather than Kevin Love's career of being an incredibly explosive offensive PF.

With Peja at the 4, we'd attack him with post-ups and Cp3-Love PnR's. Peja wouldn't have a prayer at dealing with the strength advantage of Love

Actually, despite doing an admirable job on KD nobody has actually agreed with me tbh.

Yes, you might have 2 of the top 20 greatest defenders ever, but they're also going up against 2 of the top 15 players ever... You can't tell me they'd just completely render shaq/kobe useless? Theirs a reason they were able to win 3x in a row when they were together. They complemented each other well , and were able to take over when the other struggled.

Without each-other they were great but weren't able to get it done. Together though? You're talking about one of the greatest duo's ever assembled, maybe even the greatest.

Kobe was a great playmaker during his Kobe/Shaq days, you can try to limit kobe with cooper all you want, but Kobe wasn't one dimensional, when he had Shaq he was able to dominate a game in more ways than just one. Just because he couldn't score didn't mean he couldn't take over somewhere else.

Ebbs
06-04-2016, 04:32 PM
PSK/Jam put a great team together, especially with a late pick. And like I said but I have L+G but Durant would bend Gerald Wallace over his knee and spank his ***.

Catfish1314
06-04-2016, 06:47 PM
Haven't voted yet, but a couple of things I noticed: No Name would want to turn this into an up and down game as La Habra is really built for a slower paced style. Kobe, Shaq, Billups, Brand these are all guys who excel in a half court system. No Name can play at any pace with the personnel they have; the same does not apply to La Habra.

To get up and down at a high rate, No Name needs to pound the defensive glass, force difficult shots/get stops, and force turnovers in the half court. Winning the defensive rebounding battle with Love and Mutumbo is not impossible against a Shaq-Brand frontcourt, but I'd put more money on the latter especially if Gerald Wallace is logging heavy minutes in place of Brand and/or especially Peja. Hell of a rebounder for his size and position. Getting stops and forcing turnovers from Mutumbo, Paul, and Cooper sounds doable even if it against a juggernaut of an offensive team.

Would I trust Wallace to slow down Durant? Not really, but I'd trust him more than Peja who wasn't known for bringing his best in the postseason anyway. But speaking of bringing his best in the postseason, Chris Paul has been frighteningly good in most of his playoffs runs; they've just been too short. Surround him with the offensive firepower No Name has, and I'd enjoy watching what he could do.

As far as applying the transitive property to what appears to be the legendary Kobe-Shaq duo on steroids, I'm not sure how well that works here. On paper, the team No Name has assembled is far superior to any team those Lakers squads ever saw. This one's a tough call at any rate.

EDIT: Maybe I imagined this (I hope I did) but I thought I saw someone compare Mutumbo to DeAndre Jordan somewhere in this thread. Mutumbo built a career on being one of the best interior defenders ever while defending some of the best scoring big men ever. How many truly gifted, offensively proficient centers has Jordan defended in his career?

Lakers + Giants
06-04-2016, 06:53 PM
Haven't voted yet, but a couple of things I noticed: No Name would want to turn this into an up and down game as La Habra is really built for a slower paced style. Kobe, Shaq, Billups, Brand these are all guys who excel in a half court system. No Name can play at any pace with the personnel they have; the same does not apply to La Habra.

To get up and down at a high rate, No Name needs to pound the defensive glass, force difficult shots/get stops, and force turnovers in the half court. Winning the defensive rebounding battle with Love and Mutumbo is not impossible against a Shaq-Brand frontcourt, but I'd put more money on the latter especially if Gerald Wallace is logging heavy minutes in place of Brand and/or especially Peja. Hell of a rebounder for his size and position. Getting stops and forcing turnovers from Mutumbo, Paul, and Cooper sounds doable even if it against a juggernaut of an offensive team.

Would I trust Wallace to slow down Durant? Not really, but I'd trust him more than Peja who wasn't known for bringing his best in the postseason anyway. But speaking of bringing his best in the postseason, Chris Paul has been frighteningly good in most of his playoffs runs; they've just been too short. Surround him with the offensive firepower No Name has, and I'd enjoy watching what he could do.

As far as applying the transitive property to what appears to be the legendary Kobe-Shaq duo on steroids, I'm not sure how well that works here. On paper, the team No Name has assembled is far superior to any team those Lakers squads ever saw. This one's a tough call at any rate.

I completely agree with this. I'll be honest and admit that I did not want to face PSK/Jam because this is too close a match-up.

Ultimately, I think proven success (Finals MVPs & Championships) plays a role in this too doesn't it? If he can sell DPOYs limiting Kobe/Shaq can't I sell my teams playoff success and home-court advantage as well? Surely it has to mean something.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 01:50 PM
I can't vote on the poll bc I'm on my phone. After reading everything, i really want to vote for La Habra because i like LG but I have to vote for PSK and Jams team

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2016, 08:52 PM
Not that it matters but I like the matchup for psk and jam. I got them winning a close series but it looks like a run away win for LG which is kinda surprising

Shammyguy3
06-05-2016, 10:17 PM
I can't vote on the poll bc I'm on my phone. After reading everything, i really want to vote for La Habra because i like LG but I have to vote for PSK and Jams team

just got home and added my vote to the poll

Sadds The Gr8
06-05-2016, 11:18 PM
La Habra gonna run through this conference like i expected

KnicksorBust
06-06-2016, 11:47 AM
With Gerald Wallace shutting down Durant I don't see where No Name will get their offense from... it's a joke, relax. I went La Habra but I'm annoyed doing it. Sadly I couldn't talk myself into a Love/Mutombo frontcourt holding up in a 7 game series. Plus when it comes to winning titles I need to see it to believe it with CP3 and Durant. I think both are career underachievers.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 05:43 PM
I completely agree with this. I'll be honest and admit that I did not want to face PSK/Jam because this is too close a match-up.


I'll be honest and admit you guys probably had the more talented team but I was hoping people would look at how the teams matched up and voted based on that. I thought we matched up extremely well versus you.

And I think that while your team probably would've been the better team over the course of a regular season, I think in a real life matchup, we might've been able to upset you because of the matchups. The more talented team doesn't always win. Mostly it does but get certain matchups and they can lose.

But I do really love your team. As many people probably already know, I'm not the biggest Kobe fan but I love the rest of your team. Really like Brand/Billups- they get massively underrated. And Peja was a great scorer and very skilled player. Add that with Shaq and Kobe and it's easy to see why you'll likely win this whole thing. Don't think anyone else is beating you. Kobe/Shaq name value is probably the primary reason but I honesty love the guys around those guys more.

Anyways, congrats.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 05:45 PM
La Habra gonna run through this conference like i expected

Looks like it. Hopefully we're the closest :laugh2:

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 05:46 PM
I can't vote on the poll bc I'm on my phone. After reading everything, i really want to vote for La Habra because i like LG but I have to vote for PSK and Jams team


Not that it matters but I like the matchup for psk and jam. I got them winning a close series but it looks like a run away win for LG which is kinda surprising

:)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 06:11 PM
Plus when it comes to winning titles I need to see it to believe it with CP3 and Durant. I think both are career underachievers.

Why? I've never really understood this line of thinking. And that basically means you can't ever pick anyone who hasn't already won. I realize there are a lot of repeat champions but those teams start somewhere.

Perhaps the best example imo is Dirk. Was he a different player pre 2011? Did winning the championship suddenly make him a different player? I mean his teams' haven't won a 1st round series since then. And do you think he was better in 2011 then he was in previous playoff runs? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html#playoffs_advanced::none

To me, doesn't really look like it. So what made him different pre 2011 and when he actually won it? Guy played the exact same basically.

Also, what makes CP3 and KD career underachievers? Just because they didn't win a ring yet? Does that make Charles Barkley a career underachiever? Most of the time, those guys have lost to simply better teams. Did they really play any worse in the playoffs than they normally do?

Zach Lowe actually had a great article on CP3 awhile back and on the whole "narratives"/"hot take" culture that often doesn't allow us to appreciate great players: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

And his podcast recently with JVG was great too. They discussed that a bit more.

In fact, I would say both CP3 and KD have been very unlucky. Both have had injuries derail potential title winning teams. And if they weren't, they generally lost to the team with HCA. I basically broke down their entire careers in the playoffs here:
CP3: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30959882#post30959882

KD: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

Redrum187
06-06-2016, 06:20 PM
Why? I've never really understood this line of thinking. And that basically means you can't ever pick anyone who hasn't already won. I realize there are a lot of repeat champions but those teams start somewhere.

Perhaps the best example imo is Dirk. Was he a different player pre 2011? Did winning the championship suddenly make him a different player? I mean his teams' haven't won a 1st round series since then. And do you think he was better in 2011 then he was in previous playoff runs? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html#playoffs_advanced::none

To me, doesn't really look like it. So what made him different pre 2011 and when he actually won it? Guy played the exact same basically.

Also, what makes CP3 and KD career underachievers? Just because they didn't win a ring yet? Does that make Charles Barkley a career underachiever? Most of the time, those guys have lost to simply better teams. Did they really play any worse in the playoffs than they normally do?

Zach Lowe actually had a great article on CP3 awhile back and on the whole "narratives"/"hot take" culture that often doesn't allow us to appreciate great players: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

And his podcast recently with JVG was great too. They discussed that a bit more.

In fact, I would say both CP3 and KD have been very unlucky. Both have had injuries derail potential title winning teams. And if they weren't, they generally lost to the team with HCA. I basically broke down their entire careers in the playoffs here:
CP3: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30959882#post30959882

KD: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

You make a good point about Dirk honestly. He was always elite and carried the Mavericks to the Finals two times, while having 10 or so consecutive 50+ win seasons.

However, Dirk only had Jason Terry as his best teammate both in 2006 and 2011. Durant has had a plethora of talent surrounding him. The criticism with Durant and Paul is fair, but it wasn't fair for Dirk. He didn't have any perennial all star talent on his teams.

rhino17
06-06-2016, 06:23 PM
One team has by far the 2 best player in the series, easy win

unleashthebeast
06-06-2016, 06:31 PM
One team has by far the 2 best player in the series, easy win

How much better is Kobe than Durant realistically though? I don't buy into La Habra having "by far" the two best players in the series at all

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 07:09 PM
However, Dirk only had Jason Terry as his best teammate both in 2006 and 2011. Durant has had a plethora of talent surrounding him. The criticism with Durant and Paul is fair, but it wasn't fair for Dirk. He didn't have any perennial all star talent on his teams.

Is it really? Before repeating myself, again I'm just going to refer you to that Lowe article: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

And my posts on CP3 and KD: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30959882#post30959882

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

Read those first. Then respond. Basically the central theme of both guys was that their teams were injured a lot.

Also, let's not pretend Dirk wasn't incredibly fortunate to have faced the Heat in their 1st year. I mean he's admitted that himself and said if they got them the following year, they probably lose. That's just dumb luck timing. And do you think if the Mavs had run into this Warriors team, Dirk would've won? Even if he had Westbrook on his team? Or Blake Griffin on his team? I doubt it.

And to say CP3 and KD haven't performed in the playoffs is factually inaccurate.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-06-2016, 07:20 PM
How much better is Kobe than Durant realistically though? I don't buy into La Habra having "by far" the two best players in the series at all

Realistically, he's not. Compare their peaks. Compare their skills. What can Kobe do that KD can't? Now turn it around and ask what can KD do that Kobe can't? Well he can shoot better. He can play defense at the rim better. He's got a higher end capability on the defensive end because of his length (can Kobe ever do any of this on defense? https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7). And again, he's a much better shooter. Then compare their peaks statistically:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2006-2008-sum:advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html#2013-2016-sum:advanced

That's kinda not that close. KD's frighteningly better at almost everything. And if he's not better, he's about the same. So the only thing left is their defense. But whose actually better if you ignore awards? Check out their overall PPP allowed: https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/738880923924635651/738880923953942528/1Rk7x0aV.jpg

KD's routinely better with the exception of his rookie year and 3rd year. This includes Kobe's prime too. So honestly, he's not even a better defender than KD. He can't do some of the things KD does on defense (again, watch that link from earlier)

The main difference between the two is Kobe has a much longer career. That's a clear advantage and the main reason why on an all-time perspective, he's better. And he's got rings (tho lets not act like he wasn't incredibly fortunate to play with Prime Shaq and then play in a weak era in the 08-10 range. Those Laker teams lose to the Heat, Spurs and Warriors.) Looking at it from a skill and stats perspective, KD has had the better peak. Hands down.

Edit: You could argue Kobe's a better passer I guess. But I think it's inarguable KD's a more willing passer, which kinda negates Kobe being the better passer.

KnicksorBust
06-07-2016, 07:57 AM
Why? I've never really understood this line of thinking. And that basically means you can't ever pick anyone who hasn't already won. I realize there are a lot of repeat champions but those teams start somewhere.

Perhaps the best example imo is Dirk. Was he a different player pre 2011? Did winning the championship suddenly make him a different player? I mean his teams' haven't won a 1st round series since then. And do you think he was better in 2011 then he was in previous playoff runs? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html#playoffs_advanced::none

To me, doesn't really look like it. So what made him different pre 2011 and when he actually won it? Guy played the exact same basically.

Also, what makes CP3 and KD career underachievers? Just because they didn't win a ring yet? Does that make Charles Barkley a career underachiever? Most of the time, those guys have lost to simply better teams. Did they really play any worse in the playoffs than they normally do?

Zach Lowe actually had a great article on CP3 awhile back and on the whole "narratives"/"hot take" culture that often doesn't allow us to appreciate great players: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

And his podcast recently with JVG was great too. They discussed that a bit more.

In fact, I would say both CP3 and KD have been very unlucky. Both have had injuries derail potential title winning teams. And if they weren't, they generally lost to the team with HCA. I basically broke down their entire careers in the playoffs here:
CP3: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30959882#post30959882

KD: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

Arguing this as part of your matchup or do you actually want to continue this debate?

Redrum187
06-07-2016, 01:23 PM
Is it really? Before repeating myself, again I'm just going to refer you to that Lowe article: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

And my posts on CP3 and KD: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30959882#post30959882

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?909983-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Voting-4-v-5-(NBA)&p=30960026#post30960026

Read those first. Then respond. Basically the central theme of both guys was that their teams were injured a lot.

Also, let's not pretend Dirk wasn't incredibly fortunate to have faced the Heat in their 1st year. I mean he's admitted that himself and said if they got them the following year, they probably lose. That's just dumb luck timing. And do you think if the Mavs had run into this Warriors team, Dirk would've won? Even if he had Westbrook on his team? Or Blake Griffin on his team? I doubt it.

And to say CP3 and KD haven't performed in the playoffs is factually inaccurate.

I fully agree with the bold actually. That's another good point.

However, everything else I don't agree with. It's all speculative of course, but what is factual is that they CP3 and Durant have had better teams.