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joedaheights
06-02-2016, 02:43 PM
Michael or wilt. You can argue whether he's as impactful as either...

In the case of the former, the 11 finals are almost an unscalable black eye.

The latter? Probably already yes, as his career was more Paul Bunyan legend than GOAT material.

But if Lebron loses, right or wrong, the name Wilt will be more attached to him, as he goes to 2-5 in the finals.

IMO because Love and kyrie were always overrated, it would take a jordanesque performance for Lebron to win.

This has to be considered his individual fork in the road though, doesn't it?

TheDish87
06-02-2016, 02:47 PM
what?

jerellh528
06-02-2016, 02:49 PM
2deep4me

beasted86
06-02-2016, 02:54 PM
Fork in the road? I'm not sure why someone would continue to doubt a 2x champ w/FMVP and 4x regular season MVP.

Are you really saying this one Finals will make or break the over/underrated scale on his career? Pretty foolish if you ask me.

CHANGO
06-02-2016, 03:12 PM
Yep, definitely, Lebron needs to win against one of the best teams NBA history and if he loses he is a choker. I got you bro!

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2016, 03:15 PM
Fork in the road? I'm not sure why someone would continue to doubt a 2x champ w/FMVP and 4x regular season MVP.

Are you really saying this one Finals will make or break the over/underrated scale on his career? Pretty foolish if you ask me.

Unfortunately it is what he is saying and kind of right about it. Perception is reality. Jordan is known as being the ultimate winner because he was so successful as an individual and in a team aspect. Wilt gets knocked as a stat stuffer who couldn't come through as far a team success goes in relation to how good of an individual player he was. Lebron going 3-4 in the finals is a lot different from being 2-5 and one shot away from being 1-6.

Russell is known as an ultimate team guy that only cared about team success. People say he could have put up Wilt numbers but didn't want to. Is that true? No idea, but his winning that many titles sways the way people perceive him. Lebron has a chance to change the narrative on his career this series. Either be a respectable 3-4 while beating the greatest regular season team in history. Or be 2-5 and people thinking he only made the finals that many times due to the conference he plays in.

beasted86
06-02-2016, 03:35 PM
Unfortunately it is what he is saying and kind of right about it. Perception is reality. Jordan is known as being the ultimate winner because he was so successful as an individual and in a team aspect. Wilt gets knocked as a stat stuffer who couldn't come through as far a team success goes in relation to how good of an individual player he was. Lebron going 3-4 in the finals is a lot different from being 2-5 and one shot away from being 1-6.

Russell is known as an ultimate team guy that only cared about team success. People say he could have put up Wilt numbers but didn't want to. Is that true? No idea, but his winning that many titles sways the way people perceive him. Lebron has a chance to change the narrative on his career this series. Either be a respectable 3-4 while beating the greatest regular season team in history. Or be 2-5 and people thinking he only made the finals that many times due to the conference he plays in.
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

LeBron is not going to be judged solely on the outcome of this Finals.

Also I'm tired of Lakers fans (because you guys are mostly the ones who keep bringing this up) talking about LeBron being "one shot from 1-6". None of you ever talk about Fisher or Horry or Pau or the number of times Kobe was bailed out while shooting way worse than LeBron did in the game 6. Fact is he is a 2 time champion, period. No asterisk or discredit necessary.

Bostonjorge
06-02-2016, 03:52 PM
If Cavs lose to GS then James being 2-5 in the finals will overshadow his whole career.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2016, 04:02 PM
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

LeBron is not going to be judged solely on the outcome of this Finals.

Also I'm tired of Lakers fans (because you guys are mostly the ones who keep bringing this up) talking about LeBron being "one shot from 1-6". None of you ever talk about Fisher or Horry or Pau or the number of times Kobe was bailed out while shooting way worse than LeBron did in the game 6. Fact is he is a 2 time champion, period. No asterisk or discredit necessary.
It's only flawed if you look at it between Wilt and Russell. Wilt was more dominant than say a player like Kareem statistically but Kareem is almost unanimously ranked second and Wilt falls behind him. Most of that is due to Kareems winning. If Wilt was 6 for 6 in the finals with his gawdy numbers, you better believe he would be ranked number one overall. Finals record and appearances do sway peoples opinions one way or another. There is no denying that so the logic is not flawed.

LA Laker fans are not the only ones that bring up LeBron's finals record or the fact that he was one shot away from being 1 and 6. There are just more of us on every board you will ever visit. So 3% of Laker fans bringing it up will seem like more than 20% of Bucks fans bringing it up. Just how it goes.

Leftcoast_yg
06-02-2016, 04:14 PM
I see what the op is saying he worded it a little confusing but i agree. There is another class of players that are above the elite, the legends. Those who carry the weight of their team when they most need it. When the opposing team makes one guy beat them.

Leftcoast_yg
06-02-2016, 04:20 PM
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

LeBron is not going to be judged solely on the outcome of this Finals.

Also I'm tired of Lakers fans (because you guys are mostly the ones who keep bringing this up) talking about LeBron being "one shot from 1-6". None of you ever talk about Fisher or Horry or Pau or the number of times Kobe was bailed out while shooting way worse than LeBron did in the game 6. Fact is he is a 2 time champion, period. No asterisk or discredit necessary.

You kids man. So infatuated with stats and forget about character.

Sly Guy
06-02-2016, 04:28 PM
he was the best player in the league playing in an eastern conference when the western conference was another league above them in terms of talent. I'm sorry, 2-5 won't have me write off lebron if he loses this year. He's a douche, and I don't like him. But this finals has no more importance to him and his lasting legacy than any other finals appearance so far.

RLundi
06-02-2016, 04:34 PM
If he goes 2-7 in the Finals, we need to reevaluate LeBron's position among the all-time greats. In my opinion, doesn't matter what he does here on out, he's earned a top 10 player of all time label. But if he loses 5 NBA Finals and becomes one of the most skilled losers in NBA lore, I don't think we can continue to ignore that, make excuses, and chalk that up to his inferior teams. Eventually, he's got to be held responsible and accountable for that. And I think it should affect his legacy and ranking to some degree.

bcc
06-02-2016, 04:36 PM
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

Most don't have Russell in the top 10 players of all-time?
11 NBA titles in 13 years as a pro? The greatest winner in professional sports history...by a mile?
Da hell lists are you reading?

Hawkeye15
06-02-2016, 04:56 PM
People tend to rank championships way too much for individuals. It matters more HOW they played in a win or loss if you are measuring just the individual.

Jordan lost a lot earlier than LeBron. But will never have that held against him. Instead, it took him getting his very stacked team as he was entering his prime, and he never looked back. I rank him the best player to ever play, but it's not because of his finals records.

I did find this interesting: Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

One of the reasons I just won't ever have LeBron on Jordan's level is his 2011 Finals play, individually, not because of the teams result. I can't possibly put it against him for losing his first finals as a kid with garbage on his team, and with his 2 best players knocked out last year. The 2011 series haunts him, but it's really the only one that makes me scratch my head.

Does he need this? For some, yes. But he is already cemented deep into the top 10 all time in my opinion.

Jamiecballer
06-02-2016, 05:19 PM
I always forget teammates are a choice

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numba1CHANGsta
06-02-2016, 05:33 PM
LeBron can never be on Mj's level, MJ went 6-0, LeBron can only go through the Wilt rout of 2-5

joedaheights
06-02-2016, 05:35 PM
Yep, definitely, Lebron needs to win against one of the best teams NBA history and if he loses he is a choker. I got you bro!

I wouldn't call wilt a choker. I would say it's hard to have a legacy that's top 4 all time when you're 2-5 in the finals.

You're a child, so you wouldn't get this, but we aren't arguing great v not great. We are arguing how great

Hawkeye15
06-02-2016, 05:39 PM
LeBron can never be on Mj's level, MJ went 6-0, LeBron can only go through the Wilt rout of 2-5

He won't be on MJ's level, but it's not because of his finals record.

joedaheights
06-02-2016, 05:41 PM
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

LeBron is not going to be judged solely on the outcome of this Finals.

Also I'm tired of Lakers fans (because you guys are mostly the ones who keep bringing this up) talking about LeBron being "one shot from 1-6". None of you ever talk about Fisher or Horry or Pau or the number of times Kobe was bailed out while shooting way worse than LeBron did in the game 6. Fact is he is a 2 time champion, period. No asterisk or discredit necessary.

Not solely but I never said solely. If he was solely judged as if he was 0 wins 1 loss he'd be Charles Barkley. I said wilt chamberlain. Why are you actin like I said mfin vin baker or mfin Kiki vamdeweghe

joedaheights
06-02-2016, 05:49 PM
I see what the op is saying he worded it a little confusing but i agree. There is another class of players that are above the elite, the legends. Those who carry the weight of their team when they most need it. When the opposing team makes one guy beat them.

Ding, ding, ding...

We have a bingo. To do that, Lebron is going to have to guard green, switch on everything and still be Lebron James offensively, but also the Lebron who knows when it's time to stop being unselfish and just dominate. He does that and to me it would be legendary

rocket
06-02-2016, 05:50 PM
not yet. if he loses his next one after this.

D-Leethal
06-02-2016, 05:53 PM
LeBron's handpicked allstar teammates aren't good enough, won't be his fault.

I wonder if MJ lost to Portland if the story would have been how could he possibly deal with that potent and balanced starting 5 when he only had Scottie and Horace? He needs more help.

joedaheights
06-02-2016, 05:59 PM
People tend to rank championships way too much for individuals. It matters more HOW they played in a win or loss if you are measuring just the individual.

Jordan lost a lot earlier than LeBron. But will never have that held against him. Instead, it took him getting his very stacked team as he was entering his prime, and he never looked back. I rank him the best player to ever play, but it's not because of his finals records.

I did find this interesting: Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

One of the reasons I just won't ever have LeBron on Jordan's level is his 2011 Finals play, individually, not because of the teams result. I can't possibly put it against him for losing his first finals as a kid with garbage on his team, and with his 2 best players knocked out last year. The 2011 series haunts him, but it's really the only one that makes me scratch my head.

Does he need this? For some, yes. But he is already cemented deep into the top 10 all time in my opinion.

How'd Lebron play in 11 in the finals?

Show me a series loss where Jordan played that bad.

Want to talk about the teams Jordan lost to and who was on his team? Cause I was there and saw him with Charles Oakley and a bunch of scrubs against probably the best team ever... The 86 celtics.

I knew how far pippen was from "Scottie Pippen" as we remember him... When they lost in 1990.

This is more of the same crap that was born when MJ came along and the magic and bird media just couldn't cope.

Remember, if you listened to them, MJ should have zero rings

ghettosean
06-02-2016, 06:01 PM
Oh I thought it was boxers or briefs?

Kush McDaniels
06-02-2016, 06:09 PM
lol because HOW HE PLAYS has no effect over his legacy if the CAVS get the L...

ghettosean
06-02-2016, 06:13 PM
Oh I thought it was boxers or briefs?

^^^ Wait now why can't he follow in both there footsteps by wearing whatever underwear he wants and just sport them like the legends!!!

He can do it like MJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfvEBqJpr1w

or like Wilt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzN5f-osUY


You have a choice Lebron choose well!!!

beasted86
06-02-2016, 06:24 PM
The base of your argument is flawed. I've listened to a lot of analysts, former players, and fans, and not many claim Russell was a better individual player than Wilt. I've seen a bunch of top 10 player lists and most have Wilt in the top 3-4, and most don't have Russell there.

Most don't have Russell in the top 10 players of all-time?
11 NBA titles in 13 years as a pro? The greatest winner in professional sports history...by a mile?
Da hell lists are you reading?

You've misinterpreted what I said. I meant most do not consider Russell top 3-4 and so many put Wilt there.

The belief that one finals is making or breaking anyone's career is quite absurd. I'll leave you guys to perpetuate nonsense by trying to rationalize your hate and jealousy (bred by comparisons to Jordan, Kobe, or insert your other favorite player's name).

Munkeysuit
06-02-2016, 06:42 PM
We have the privilege of sitting behind our desks and tapping away our thoughts on these forums shooting away in the dark, hoping for someone to agree with us...thats pretty much all we can do...do our thoughts an opinions matter? well maybe only to ourselves and those that take us seriously, but how serious are we taking ourselves when we blindly hack away at other people's lives?
Lebron James (no matter what anyone says) has achieved a lot more than most people can even dream of in his young lifetime. Even if I didn't like him, I would be ignorant not to acknowledge who he is and what he has done for the game of basketball and beyond.
When will we realize that the GOAT label isn't realistic?, time hasn't stopped!, it will go on after Lebron is done, it will go on after Steph is done and whoever we decide to exalt in our opinions will come and go! there will never be a GOAT until basketball itself comes to an end and we can reflect on who mattered most to the game.

Saddletramp
06-02-2016, 06:44 PM
People tend to rank championships way too much for individuals. It matters more HOW they played in a win or loss if you are measuring just the individual.

Jordan lost a lot earlier than LeBron. But will never have that held against him. Instead, it took him getting his very stacked team as he was entering his prime, and he never looked back. I rank him the best player to ever play, but it's not because of his finals records.

I did find this interesting: Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

One of the reasons I just won't ever have LeBron on Jordan's level is his 2011 Finals play, individually, not because of the teams result. I can't possibly put it against him for losing his first finals as a kid with garbage on his team, and with his 2 best players knocked out last year. The 2011 series haunts him, but it's really the only one that makes me scratch my head.

Does he need this? For some, yes. But he is already cemented deep into the top 10 all time in my opinion.

This.

Teeboy1487
06-02-2016, 07:21 PM
What the hell is wrong with being Wilt?

joedaheights
06-02-2016, 07:21 PM
You've misinterpreted what I said. I meant most do not consider Russell top 3-4 and so many put Wilt there.

The belief that one finals is making or breaking anyone's career is quite absurd. I'll leave you guys to perpetuate nonsense by trying to rationalize your hate and jealousy (bred by comparisons to Jordan, Kobe, or insert your other favorite player's name).

Wait what? What sane person:

A) doesn't have Russell top 4?
B) does have wilt there?

Remember two different ways of doing this..

1) analyze their talents as if you were drafting them on draft night

2) look at what actually happened

Wilt is a top top top talent.. In terms of what happened, Russell absolutely is top 4 and wilt is not

ghettosean
06-02-2016, 07:24 PM
What the hell is wrong with being Wilt?

He didn't get sponsored by Hanes.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2016, 09:06 PM
You've misinterpreted what I said. I meant most do not consider Russell top 3-4 and so many put Wilt there.

The belief that one finals is making or breaking anyone's career is quite absurd. I'll leave you guys to perpetuate nonsense by trying to rationalize your hate and jealousy (bred by comparisons to Jordan, Kobe, or insert your other favorite player's name).

You are being overdramatic. Nobody said that this finals would make or break his career. There is a discussion to be had how far he gets ranked in terms of greatness though. He could go anywhere between 2 and 6. Which is still great and something 99.99 percent of the population wish could say they were. When you are debating greatness at that level you have to start picking and choosing and delving deeper into all aspects of their careers. The OP questions whether he will be in Jordan's class or Wilts class. Is that an insult to you? If it is you guys are the ones with the problem

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2016, 09:13 PM
What the hell is wrong with being Wilt?

No $h1t! The guy asked if LeBrons more Jordan or Wilt and the LeStans come in here all offended. Bow down to the throne and praise the highest Almighty or get yelled at

bucketss
06-02-2016, 10:04 PM
lebron was never jordan

Chronz
06-02-2016, 10:33 PM
What the hell is wrong with being Wilt?

Only arguably top 2 through 4 instead of the goat cuz mj retired instead of accepting defeat

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2016, 11:54 PM
Only arguably top 2 through 4 instead of the goat cuz mj retired instead of accepting defeat

Hey dude, not to derail the thread questioning if LeBron is top one or top 4 ever, but what do you think about Kareems case for number one?

More-Than-Most
06-03-2016, 12:10 AM
People tend to rank championships way too much for individuals. It matters more HOW they played in a win or loss if you are measuring just the individual.

Jordan lost a lot earlier than LeBron. But will never have that held against him. Instead, it took him getting his very stacked team as he was entering his prime, and he never looked back. I rank him the best player to ever play, but it's not because of his finals records.

I did find this interesting: Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

One of the reasons I just won't ever have LeBron on Jordan's level is his 2011 Finals play, individually, not because of the teams result. I can't possibly put it against him for losing his first finals as a kid with garbage on his team, and with his 2 best players knocked out last year. The 2011 series haunts him, but it's really the only one that makes me scratch my head.

Does he need this? For some, yes. But he is already cemented deep into the top 10 all time in my opinion.

Probably the best post in this forum in a very long time.

Now lets look at what the forum thinks. So far after 1 game curry opened up all lanes and made everyone better tonight like an mvp should and lebron choked for turning the ball over 4 times total... Literally that is whats being said after this game 1.

Chronz
06-03-2016, 12:30 AM
Hey dude, not to derail the thread questioning if LeBron is top one or top 4 ever, but what do you think about Kareems case for number one?
I was referring to Wilt. Bron is behind a tier or 2

KAJ has the GOAT resume. Its the context that punishes him historically.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2016, 12:41 AM
People tend to rank championships way too much for individuals. It matters more HOW they played in a win or loss if you are measuring just the individual.

I don't think so. They only do it for certain players. The best of the best. When talking about who was the best you start to split hairs. Team success or how easy it was to build around a player matters in that context. If team success has no bearing, how far should we go in disregarding team success as far as individual players? What if a player puts up 30/10/10 on 60% true shooting with low turnovers for his career and his team goes 30-52 on average for his career and he never makes the playoffs. Is he an all time great? His stats say so but context would lead us to believe he was a stat stuffer who did not play winning basketball. Of course that is an extreme example but it applies none the less. This hypothetical player would get knocked down in rankings due to lack of team success. Real players also get knocked down in rankings due to lack of success.


Jordan lost a lot earlier than LeBron. But will never have that held against him. Instead, it took him getting his very stacked team as he was entering his prime, and he never looked back. I rank him the best player to ever play, but it's not because of his finals records.

Contrary to popular belief, a players athletic and statistical peak is at age 27 and slowly dropping off slightly every year after that. By the time a player is 29 or 30 they have lost a lot athletically and start to pace themselves.


I did find this interesting: Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

Not sure if I'm getting this right but I think you are trying to say James made it to the finals 7 times and only missed it 4? But hes been in the league 13 years so wouldn't it be 7-6?


One of the reasons I just won't ever have LeBron on Jordan's level is his 2011 Finals play, individually, not because of the teams result. I can't possibly put it against him for losing his first finals as a kid with garbage on his team, and with his 2 best players knocked out last year. The 2011 series haunts him, but it's really the only one that makes me scratch my head.

Yeah, his first finals he and his team had no business being there. Last year either. Which is why I have always been a proponent of scratching the conferences and just playing 1 v 16, 2-15 etc... Lebron would probably have a much better finals record at 2-0.


Does he need this? For some, yes. But he is already cemented deep into the top 10 all time in my opinion.

I don't think anyone has said otherwise. The question at hand is he arguably top 1-2 or 5-6? Either way still an all time great

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2016, 12:44 AM
I was referring to Wilt. Bron is behind a tier or 2

KAJ has the GOAT resume. Its the context that punishes him historically.

I don't know if this is the time or place, but I'm interested on the context you are referring to. I'm sure there will be another "Greatest of all time thread"

numba1CHANGsta
06-03-2016, 01:08 AM
Keys to LeBron's success: Ray Allen and a short season :)

LA_Raiders
06-03-2016, 01:33 AM
He is a choker already with a 2-4 record. Sorry but MJ and Kobe > LeFlop

lol, please
06-03-2016, 01:38 AM
He is a choker already with a 2-4 record. Sorry but MJ and Kobe > LeFlop

This.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2016, 01:44 AM
^ I stand corrected, I guess losing in this finals drops him to maybe top 30 all time. Smh. Come on guys, the feud is over. LeBron is in the upper half of top 10 all-time players. He should be 2-0 in the finals. His teams had no business being in the finals the other five times. They are just the sacrificial lamb from the Eastern Conference.

DoMeFavors
06-03-2016, 01:53 AM
People dismiss what last years players did for cavaliers, last season Warriors had zero champions on their team. Cavaliers had Lebron,Marion,Mike Miller,James Jones, Perkins, Haywood all champions. Experience helps and this cavaliers team is too young to me.

DoMeFavors
06-03-2016, 01:56 AM
^ I stand corrected, I guess losing in this finals drops him to maybe top 30 all time. Smh. Come on guys, the feud is over. LeBron is in the upper half of top 10 all-time players. He should be 2-0 in the finals. His teams had no business being in the finals the other five times. They are just the sacrificial lamb from the Eastern Conference.

2011,2014,2015,2016 they had by far the best eastern conference teams. So they deserve to be there just aren't getting the job done.

lol, please
06-03-2016, 01:59 AM
It's going to hurt his legacy if he can't get through a Curry led team, let's be honest.

DoMeFavors
06-03-2016, 02:03 AM
It's going to hurt his legacy if he can't get through a Curry led team, let's be honest.

Well if in Lebrons prime he is overtaken and a guy with 2 league mvps beats you twice in his career, that certainly will lower you on the chart.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2016, 02:29 AM
2011,2014,2015,2016 they had by far the best eastern conference teams. So they deserve to be there just aren't getting the job done.

If we got rid of conference playoffs he would not have made it to the finals is what I am saying. Allen Iverson shouldn't have a finals appearance, neither should Jason Kidd. A lot of times the Eastern Conference champ would not have beat the Western Conference second and sometimes third place teams. The cavs in 2007 that played the Spurs had no business ever appearing in the finals. We hold Lebron accountable for a bad finals record, but truthfully they shouldnt have been there at all. Maybe even this year depending how things go. I might take OKC and the Spurs over the Cavs.

Scoots
06-03-2016, 02:51 AM
These threads are so dumb.

ANYBODY who says LeBron is anything but an all time great is either an idiot or a troll.

GOAT he's never going to get, that shot is gone.

Jayb587
06-03-2016, 02:57 AM
These threads are so dumb.

ANYBODY who says LeBron is anything but an all time great is either an idiot or a troll.

GOAT he's never going to get, that shot is gone.

pretty much. its Jordan and then everyone else. rankings after Jordan come down to personal preference.

another finals lost to curry is going to do serious damage to lebrons ego. wonder how he overreacts this offseason if the cavs lose this series. im going to assume that either kyrie or love get traded.

ClassyAshyLarry
06-03-2016, 03:52 AM
Man, the Nba forum sucks. Ya'll are dumb as ****.

Sound like a giant skip vs Stephen A fight. Yuck.

joedaheights
06-03-2016, 06:39 PM
He is a choker already with a 2-4 record. Sorry but MJ and Kobe > LeFlop

Kobe Bryant is not greater than Lebron James. Lebron James never needed players on his team who dominated the paint offensively to win. Kobe always did.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2016, 07:51 PM
Kobe Bryant is not greater than Lebron James. Lebron James never needed players on his team who dominated the paint offensively to win. Kobe always did.

Lebron is better, but that's not a good reason to say why. First of all, Lebron doesn't want his big guys in the paint. They get in the way of his driving lanes. Bosh and Love were both very good in the post prior to playing with Lebron. Lebron made them three point shooters so they could spread the floor for his drive and dishes. Since he lacks the ability to shoot from the outside, a big man that plays in the post would lessen Lebrons role and we have seen he will not let that happen.

And I think you are the first person I have ever seen call Gasol a dominator.

42-15-7
06-03-2016, 08:10 PM
Watching the game last night it occurred to me that LeBron cares more about positioning himself to lose than he does about winning at all costs. I lost track of the number of boneheaded plays he made and stupid shots he took. He played an all-around game that looked good in the state sheet, but when he tried to impose his will he failed. And when Iggy d'ed him up he folded.

You can already see people talking about how the Cavs team is letting LeBron down again, and I think that's BS. LeBron is letting the Cavs and the fans down, and he ought to be called on it. If he doesn't come back with a dominating game on Sunday, I don't think they can win, and they're damn sure not beating GS 4 out of the next 5.

Sunday is the series for the Cavs. If they lose, I expect LeBron to play the rest of the series like the passive-aggressive dick that he is. He'll play heavy minutes, rack up great stats, then ask what else he could have done.

Jamiecballer
06-04-2016, 01:43 AM
2011,2014,2015,2016 they had by far the best eastern conference teams. So they deserve to be there just aren't getting the job done.
Right.... because of him. You aren't disproving his point like you think you are

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Jayb587
06-04-2016, 02:39 AM
Lebron is better, but that's not a good reason to say why. First of all, Lebron doesn't want his big guys in the paint. They get in the way of his driving lanes. Bosh and Love were both very good in the post prior to playing with Lebron. Lebron made them three point shooters so they could spread the floor for his drive and dishes. Since he lacks the ability to shoot from the outside, a big man that plays in the post would lessen Lebrons role and we have seen he will not let that happen.

And I think you are the first person I have ever seen call Gasol a dominator.

gotta revoke your laker card for saying LeBron is better.

europagnpilgrim
06-04-2016, 02:52 AM
Unfortunately it is what he is saying and kind of right about it. Perception is reality. Jordan is known as being the ultimate winner because he was so successful as an individual and in a team aspect. Wilt gets knocked as a stat stuffer who couldn't come through as far a team success goes in relation to how good of an individual player he was. Lebron going 3-4 in the finals is a lot different from being 2-5 and one shot away from being 1-6.

Russell is known as an ultimate team guy that only cared about team success. People say he could have put up Wilt numbers but didn't want to. Is that true? No idea, but his winning that many titles sways the way people perceive him. Lebron has a chance to change the narrative on his career this series. Either be a respectable 3-4 while beating the greatest regular season team in history. Or be 2-5 and people thinking he only made the finals that many times due to the conference he plays in.

Thing is Jordan was considered huge ball hog during the 80's and during his run through 6 titles, he just won all 6 times he went to finals in his 12 1/2 year Bulls tenure and as for Big Dipper he was drafted to a team that wasn't no where near built like what Russell came to, swap players and Big Dipper would have the rings and his stats would have been dominant but not like it is now because of better surrounding cast he would have had in Beantown, Big Dipper held the two best all time team win records until Jordan and Curry led teams to 72/73 wins and he still holds the longest winning streak in season as a old man with the Lakers, those 60's Boston teams would have won 70(or more) games a few times had Big Dipper played for that stacked team instead of Russell, easily

Russell was the ultimate champion because he also won back to back in ncaa prior to his 11 in 13 years in nba, nobody will ever match 13 titles in 15 years, he was also on par as a supreme athlete as Big Dipper but he wasn't a giant like his friendly rival was

Lebron is more Big Dipper, been said that years ago

Russell could have scored more had he wanted to but he was such a dominant rebounder/shot blocker/defender he knew he had the horses(scoring) where Big Dipper had to score(his owner told him to score big) not only for his team but to sell tickets to keep the league afloat , its a reason he was being paid like a franchise was worth back then for his contract, he owned the league($$/Ticket gate) but Beantown owned the rings

I respect players who get there no matter if they win or lose, Magic going 9x is just as impressive as Jordan 6x simply because he went 3 more times, same with West back in his day who went to like 9 or 10 finals and won just once, still that is very impressive to make it

Big Dipper dethroned Russell 8peat when he finally had a couple mates capable of putting in work, he was that dominant, most dominant solo act by a large margin regardless of rings or other weak accolades, West would have more rings had the Lakers drafted Big Dipper out of Kansas and Russell wouldn't have won 8 in a row for sure, but **** happens

Russell cared about rebounds and block shots since he grabbed/blocked so many per game, and he cared about lockdown defense, he dominated his personal duties which equated to ultimate team success

Big Dipper would take Boston to 6/7 games while Jordan was getting swept by Bird's version so I feel impact was way more in Big Dipper's favor, but I don't know much

D-Leethal
06-04-2016, 09:04 AM
When AI makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "it was the perfect mix of talent around him" "you must not value defensive talent"

When LeBron makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "It isn't his fault his team sucks" "he doesn't have any offensive support" "nobody could bring that sorry cast to the Finals"

ClassyAshyLarry
06-04-2016, 10:38 AM
^ lol so many dumb people in this thread talking to themselves like this guy or just creating arguments no one is making. Like I said you're all dumb. You've all been tricked.

The amount opinion in this thread pulled right out of skip bayless quotes is sad. Ya'll are pathetic.

D-Leethal
06-04-2016, 11:22 AM
^ lol so many dumb people in this thread talking to themselves like this guy or just creating arguments no one is making. Like I said you're all dumb. You've all been tricked.

The amount opinion in this thread pulled right out of skip bayless quotes is sad. Ya'll are pathetic.

I've been on this forum more than 2 weeks, I know the contradictory arguments that have been made by peeps on here for years now. That is a famous one.

Chronz
06-04-2016, 05:00 PM
^ lol so many dumb people in this thread talking to themselves like this guy or just creating arguments no one is making. Like I said you're all dumb. You've all been tricked.

The amount opinion in this thread pulled right out of skip bayless quotes is sad. Ya'll are pathetic.
That's just his style man. Always making up or outright misunderstanding arguments .

Chronz
06-04-2016, 05:09 PM
Cp3 getting traded for kyrie

Love for crowder + asset

Chronz
06-04-2016, 05:12 PM
When AI makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "it was the perfect mix of talent around him" "you must not value defensive talent"

When LeBron makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "It isn't his fault his team sucks" "he doesn't have any offensive support" "nobody could bring that sorry cast to the Finals"

Which bron are you talking about? The one that upset Detroit vs the Philly team that was pushed to7in Every series and needed ref help?

Jamiecballer
06-04-2016, 05:27 PM
When AI makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "it was the perfect mix of talent around him" "you must not value defensive talent"

When LeBron makes the Finals with a nobody cast of defenders - "It isn't his fault his team sucks" "he doesn't have any offensive support" "nobody could bring that sorry cast to the Finals"
I think there is a key piece you are missing. Iverson was surrounded by players of a very particular mould because he was incredibly selfish. In that sense it was a perfect compliment to his skills - get guys who did 90% of their best work without the ball.

Contrast that with lebron who is both incredibly unselfish and whose greatest accomplishments have been seasons where the talent level was both not great nor were his teammates perfect fits (not saying anyone should expect perfect fits in their teammates) and the result is very very different.

Iverson was selfish and found a perfect mix when his team realized it was the only way to have success with a player like Iverson.

Forgive us if we don't all stand up and cheer.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Bostonjorge
06-05-2016, 12:06 AM
I think there is a key piece you are missing. Iverson was surrounded by players of a very particular mould because he was incredibly selfish. In that sense it was a perfect compliment to his skills - get guys who did 90% of their best work without the ball.

Contrast that with lebron who is both incredibly unselfish and whose greatest accomplishments have been seasons where the talent level was both not great nor were his teammates perfect fits (not saying anyone should expect perfect fits in their teammates) and the result is very very different.

Iverson was selfish and found a perfect mix when his team realized it was the only way to have success with a player like Iverson.

Forgive us if we don't all stand up and cheer.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
What about Jason Kidd. He didn't have a special mold of players yet he carried that team 2 years in a row to the finals. Kids teams where way less then what James has this year. Kidd had no elite scores like love or Irving. No big time rebounds like Thomson. Kidd made something out of nothing. Kidd was a true elite passer and made his players around him better. What we pretend James is elite at.

Also what is a perfect fit for James? You plug him in any team out east and he loses to GS, Okc and SA. That's a entire conference that won't fit with James perfect enough to win a title. You plug in Westbook in Toronto and we have a championship team.

ClassyAshyLarry
06-05-2016, 04:28 AM
I've been on this forum more than 2 weeks, I know the contradictory arguments that have been made by peeps on here for years now. That is a famous one.

Then stare at a mirror and argue with yourself since you obviously don't need anyone to be there to make dumb arguments.

ClassyAshyLarry
06-05-2016, 04:29 AM
I think there is a key piece you are missing. Iverson was surrounded by players of a very particular mould because he was incredibly selfish. In that sense it was a perfect compliment to his skills - get guys who did 90% of their best work without the ball.

Contrast that with lebron who is both incredibly unselfish and whose greatest accomplishments have been seasons where the talent level was both not great nor were his teammates perfect fits (not saying anyone should expect perfect fits in their teammates) and the result is very very different.

Iverson was selfish and found a perfect mix when his team realized it was the only way to have success with a player like Iverson.

Forgive us if we don't all stand up and cheer.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Don't fall for that idiot's bait.

ClassyAshyLarry
06-05-2016, 05:06 AM
What about Jason Kidd. He didn't have a special mold of players yet he carried that team 2 years in a row to the finals. Kids teams where way less then what James has this year. Kidd had no elite scores like love or Irving. No big time rebounds like Thomson. Kidd made something out of nothing. Kidd was a true elite passer and made his players around him better. What we pretend James is elite at.

Also what is a perfect fit for James? You plug him in any team out east and he loses to GS, Okc and SA. That's a entire conference that won't fit with James perfect enough to win a title. You plug in Westbook in Toronto and we have a championship team.

Does the BS hyperbole you spew come out naturally or is part of a condition? Are people suppose to get anything out of these types of comments? Like honestly there isn't a fact in this comment. Like it's completely useless in any way toward any intelligent conversation.

And as far as the Nets go I suggest you watch those games and see hwo **** that team was. Even with Kidd. Honestly Lebron could take over the 76ers next year and that team would automatically be better than the 02-03 Nets.

lol, please
06-05-2016, 01:11 PM
Kobe Bryant is not greater than Lebron James. Lebron James never needed players on his team who dominated the paint offensively to win. Kobe always did.
Don't confuse having good teammates with needing good teammates.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

D-Leethal
06-05-2016, 03:07 PM
I think there is a key piece you are missing. Iverson was surrounded by players of a very particular mould because he was incredibly selfish. In that sense it was a perfect compliment to his skills - get guys who did 90% of their best work without the ball.

Contrast that with lebron who is both incredibly unselfish and whose greatest accomplishments have been seasons where the talent level was both not great nor were his teammates perfect fits (not saying anyone should expect perfect fits in their teammates) and the result is very very different.

Iverson was selfish and found a perfect mix when his team realized it was the only way to have success with a player like Iverson.

Forgive us if we don't all stand up and cheer.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

I'm not arguing selfishness or selflessness. I'm arguing the contradictory narrative about their supporting casts. And I don't buy the bold - Iverson's teammates were "perfect fits" and LeBron's were "not talented nor perfect fits". What made AI's cast "perfect fits" and LeBron's crappy support years "not perfect fits"?

Iverson was selfish, LeBron is timid. LeBron found his best success when he had guys bail him out of his choking-in-the-face-of-adversity tendencies. AI found his when "his team realized the only way to have success" was surrounding him with defensive guys who excel without the ball.

D-Leethal
06-05-2016, 03:17 PM
Which bron are you talking about? The one that upset Detroit vs the Philly team that was pushed to7in Every series and needed ref help?

Speak English please.

D-Leethal
06-05-2016, 03:17 PM
Then stare at a mirror and argue with yourself since you obviously don't need anyone to be there to make dumb arguments.

At that point I wasn't arguing or engaging anybody or any opinion. Just laughing.

Chronz
06-05-2016, 11:08 PM
Speak English please.specifics plz. Ai was obviously 01

joedaheights
06-05-2016, 11:51 PM
The whole "hey my guy doesn't have a cast" thing has to have this attached to it.. It took Kobe fans a long time to understand this and now lebrons fans are going through it.

Don't confuse arguing against the negative as for the positive.

"Lebron doesn't have this" "Lebron shouldn't be penalized for losing because look at his teammates."

Ok... You're giving reasons why he shouldn't be viewed as being worse than Karl Malone, a fringe top 25 player ever

Where Lebron's fans lose me is when they sound like having an excuse for losing should basically be treated as if he won.

Reasons why you didn't do something will never be as persuasive as doing that thing.

Jordan had a shot cast and lost to some of the better teams you'll see... But if he didn't validate himself by then winning 6... He wouldn't and shouldn't be viewed as he is.

Reasons why you failed is always worse than success

Bostonjorge
06-06-2016, 12:28 AM
The whole "hey my guy doesn't have a cast" thing has to have this attached to it.. It took Kobe fans a long time to understand this and now lebrons fans are going through it.

Don't confuse arguing against the negative as for the positive.

"Lebron doesn't have this" "Lebron shouldn't be penalized for losing because look at his teammates."

Ok... You're giving reasons why he shouldn't be viewed as being worse than Karl Malone, a fringe top 25 player ever

Where Lebron's fans lose me is when they sound like having an excuse for losing should basically be treated as if he won.

Reasons why you didn't do something will never be as persuasive as doing that thing.

Jordan had a shot cast and lost to some of the better teams you'll see... But if he didn't validate himself by then winning 6... He wouldn't and shouldn't be viewed as he is.

Reasons why you failed is always worse than success

Lebron losing in the finals in the worse possible ways you can think of is actually a reason he's a top 5 player ever. Losing finals recored, finals sweep and biggest point differential lose ever only help his case. How could it actually hurt it? Act right.

Tony_Starks
06-06-2016, 09:57 AM
So.....being Wilt is now a insulting thing?

Some of you fellows thinking is a bit warped, I must say.

RLundi
06-06-2016, 02:12 PM
Yeah I'm confused, since when is being Wilt Chamberlain an insult? Close to 3,065 of the roughly 3,070 players that have donned a jersey in NBA history would absolutely LOVE to be Wilt.

You don't need to denigrate one guy to lift another up.

joedaheights
06-07-2016, 01:50 AM
Yeah I'm confused, since when is being Wilt Chamberlain an insult? Close to 3,065 of the roughly 3,070 players that have donned a jersey in NBA history would absolutely LOVE to be Wilt.

You don't need to denigrate one guy to lift another up.

Something when you're James, who I've always thought had the talent to be whatever he wanted. Here's where I think you have to rank players based on what's actually happened

Jordan
Abdul-Jabbar
Magic
Russell
Bird
O'neal
Duncan
James
Bryant
Wilt

With his numbers... 4 rings and to me you can debate anyone except Jordan where the debate is still there, yet not very strong ..

But if this guy goes 2-8, 2-9 in the finals.. He becomes wilt, where someone rattles off the numbers in 40 years and it takes someone who was there to say "yeah but I watched the 2011 Finals."

Players with Tim Duncan's very very good, yet not top top top talent like James.. Should look around and say, "people, even some people.. Think I had a better career than Wilt?!? Yes!"

I always thought that James could aspire to much more than Choke Chamberlain. But then I thought that Durant could aspire to more than a different style, similar impact Dominique Wilkins with more longevity of prime.. But it turns out I could be the laughing stock there as well.