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valade16
05-31-2016, 05:56 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll

(4) Lucky

PG: Terry Porter - Danny Ainge
SG: John Havlicek - Steve Smith
SF: Julius Erving - Mark Aguirre
PF: Elvin Hayes - PJ Brown
C: Bill Walton - Brad Miller

vs.

(5) Team No Name

PG: Chris Paul - Gus Williams
SG: Michael Cooper - Raja Bell
SF: Kevin Durant - Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Kevin Love - Tom Chambers
C: Dikembe Mutombo - Andrew Bynum

Ebbs
05-31-2016, 06:00 PM
Oldies vs. Newbies.

I think honestly Lucky has the better team but it's convincing the masses that it's true.

Ebbs
05-31-2016, 06:01 PM
by masses I mean the 5-6 voters not from the game

Raidaz4Life
05-31-2016, 07:11 PM
I'm pretty sure this is like my 1 vs 11 seed in terms of how I voted for the rankings so needless to say its pretty easy for me. Chris Paul and Durant are immensely talented but putting two of the biggest chokers in the modern NBA on the same team wasn't a good move to me. Even if the criticism isn't necessarily fair, neither could win a title on a stacked team so selling me on them carrying a team in an all time re-draft more than likely won't happen.

Lucky.
05-31-2016, 09:42 PM
Congrats and best of luck, PSK/Jam.

I feel as though I have the more talented team and match-up well here.

Terry Porter will be guarding Michael Cooper while John Havlicek switches on to Chris Paul.

I don't believe PSK and Jamal have enough offensively here to win this series if either of Chris Paul or Kevin Durant has an off night. And as great as those two are, it'll be difficult to play at a high level beginning to end in this series having John Havlicek and Julius Erving draped all over them, especially Paul. I don't mean to discredit the likes of Michael Cooper, Kevin Love and Dikembe Mutombo, either. It's just that if someone like Julius Erving or Bill Walton has an off night, I feel like Terry Porter, John Havlicek and Elvin Hayes are capable of taking over (and really, Mark Aguirre off the bench). I don't feel the same when looking at the supporting cast surrounding Chris Paul and Kevin Durant. And I know, Cooper and Mutombo's values will be felt more on the defensive end. But it's not like I'm lacking on that side of the ball. Everyone in my starting lineup could be called two-way players. All of them are good to even elite (Havlicek, Walton) defenders.

Offensively I will be playing through my bigs for a large portion of this series. Elvin Hayes should have a field day, as neither Kevin Love or Tom Chambers are good defensively. His ability to post up, shoot and run in transition will be something that gives PSK and Jamal problems all series no matter who they decide to throw at him.

And Mutombo, their defensive anchor, will have his defensive presence limited when Bill Walton is on the floor. In Walton's short prime, there really wasn't anything he couldn't do. He had a very efficient mid-range jump shot that would force Mutombo to come out of the paint, limiting his ability to contest shots at the rim. What makes Walton's jump shot even more lethal is his ability to pass. Walton was an elite passer. Arguably the greatest passing center of all time. Once Mutombo is pulled out to the perimeter, there will be no one to protect the paint. This will give Walton the opportunity to find teammates such as Erving, Havlicek and Hayes cutting to the rim, which hopefully leads to drawn fouls.

Once they quickly realize that their big men are clearly a terrible match-up against my big men, they will inevitably switch to a small ball lineup consisting of Chris Paul, Michael Cooper, Raja Bell, Kevin Durant and Dikembe Mutombo (or a similar lineup variation where Durant plays the 4). At times I will counter with a small ball lineup of my own consisting of Terry Porter, Steve Smith/Mark Aguirre, John Havlicek, Julius Erving and Bill Walton.

Quinnsanity
05-31-2016, 10:38 PM
I liked Lucky's team more before the trading flurry. The matchup is pretty good for him but the talent and fit for PSK and Jam is just overwhelming. I have no earthly idea how they're the 5th seed, you could've talked me into them being 1st.

Sadds The Gr8
06-01-2016, 01:31 AM
best matchup of the 1st round. I like PSK/Jam slightly more...I think they win in 7

Chronz
06-01-2016, 01:56 AM
In order to reinvigorate my passion for these games I'm going to come up with a judging system i can use across teams equally.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 03:49 AM
I'll have a response to Lucky tomorrow as well as our own gameplan.

Or well, I'll do a simple run through now.

On defense, we'll have CP3 guarding Porter. Considering CP3 is one of the best defenders in the NBA (http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/), we really like that matchup. We also feel comfortable with CP3 switching onto Hondo as Hondo's not that big and CP3's proven he can defend bigger players. This is just one aspect of our versatility.

We'll have DPOY Cooper guarding Dr. J. We feel confident that Cooper can limit Dr. J's. Also, we have Raja Bell off the bench to guard Dr. J as well. And we'd even be willing to put KD on Dr. J for a few minutes just to give him a taste of KD's massive 7-5' wingspan (which is the largest on record for a guy who played SF in the NBA (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=3&sort=5)) that bothered a number of Warriors players in this past series.

But in general, KD will be guarding Hondo. Why? Because Hondo's the easier assignment that allows KD to concentrate on offense and also because there's no way Hondo would be able to see over KD, whose got like 6-7 inches on him + the biggest wingspan ever for a wing. We feel confident KD could limit, if not shut down Hondo, who was a pretty inefficient player. As he showed (http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/oklahoma-city-thunder-golden-state-warriors-kevin-durant-draymond-green-052616) in the Warriors series, KD can be dominating (http://www.si.com/nba/2016/05/23/kevin-durant-defense-warriors-thunder-nba-playoffs) on (https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/9069/kevin-durant-s-defense-has-helped-take-the-thunder-to-the-next-level#) defense (https://sports.yahoo.com/news/kevin-durants-defense-made-thunders-152521766.html) (you don't have to take my word for it, read the links which do a much better job breaking down KD's defense).

We'll have 4-time DPOY Dik guarding Bill Walton. Given Walton averaged only 19 ppg in his peak on slightly above average efficiency (55.4% TS% in his top scoring season), we feel confident Dik could shut down Walton. That may seem extreme but Walton was more of an all around player who was probably better on the defensive end. Again, in his top season, he only averaged 19 ppg. Dik, whose 4 DPOYs are tied for the most ever, has got the height advantage and the athleticism advantage over Walton.

So between Coop on Dr. J and Dik on Walton, we feel like we can severely limit the top scoring options on Lucky's team. And Hondo will have to try to figure out how to score on someone whose just as quick as he is but has 6-7 inches on him and the biggest wingspan ever recorded for a SF (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=3&sort=5). And of course Porter will have CP3 on him. That leaves their best source of offense up to Elvin Hayes, who was inefficient for his time.

And while Hayes seems to have a favorable matchup against Love, it's actually not as good as you would think. Why? Because while we won't argue Love is a good defender (he's not), he has been good defending in the post in his career. Where Love struggles is defending in space and we don't think Lucky has the PF or players to take advantage of that. Additionally, Love is still playing with 2 DPOYs, CP3 (who has like 8 all-defensive teams), KD who as we saw in the Warriors series is capable of dominating on defense at his best and is at the very least an above average defender (3-year defensive RAPM is on the + side).

Anyways, the proof on Love's D in the post (plenty large enough sample size):

PPP
2015-16 0.86
2014-15 0.754
2013-14 0.721
2012-13 1.03
2011-12 0.689
2010-11 0.861
2009-10 0.83
2008-09 0.876
Overall 0.795360398

4 years above average, 2 years at average and 1 year below average.
2012-13 was the year he was injured so that's why he looks bad that year, sample size was small that year too.


So we feel like Hayes won't be able to score very well on Love in the post. Love's allowed only 0.795 PPP in the post over his career and Hayes was inefficient.

So ultimately, that leaves Lucky with very little scoring with his starting lineup either getting locked up by DPOYs or freaks of nature (KD). And even our 1 weaker defender matches up well vs. his PF whose mainly a Post Up threat.

On offense, we'll run a lot of pick and roll which will allow us to get matchup advantages. Specifically, we'll run a lot of CP3-KD pick and roll. So either Lucky will have to trap CP3 (not a good idea leaving KD) or switch. That gives us the favorable matchup of Dr. J on CP3 and Hondo on KD. CP3 would be able to blow by Dr. J (who does not have any all-defensive teams in the NBA, only the ABA) and KD could just shoot over Hondo. Either way, Lucky's in trouble unless he helps, which leaves our shooters open.

The_Jamal
06-01-2016, 05:08 AM
In addition, we have questions as to how Lucky is going to get his offense to gel together without severely limiting why his players became so great. Hayes, Hondo and Erving and Walton did not play second fiddle to anybody in their primes and had the ball in their hands as unquestioned #1 options. Lucky has already mentioned that Hayes and Walton will see a majority of the possessions in this series. Is limiting opportunities for Erving and Hondo, by far his two best scorers, really the best course of action?

Here’s a chart of each of Lucky’s starting 5 best PPG season and their corresponding TS%, FGA and USG rate when applicable.

18.9 ppg » 55.4% TS% » 14.3 FGA >> 24.5% USG >> Walton
28.4 ppg » 48.3% TS% » 25.4 FGA >> Hayes
28.7 ppg » 46.8% TS% » 27 FGA >> Hayes
23.7 ppg » 54.4% TS% » 18.5 FGA >> Hayes
26.9 ppg » 56.8% TS% » 20.4 FGA >> 30.3% USG >> Dr. J
24.4 ppg » 59.3% TS% » 17.6 FGA >> 28.1% USG >> Dr. J
24.2 ppg » 53.3% TS% » 19.6 FGA >> Hondo
28.9 ppg » 51.3% TS% » 24.5 FGA >> Hondo
17 ppg » 63.2% TS% » 11.7 FGA >> 19.6% USG >> Porter
18.1 ppg » 57.5% TS% » 13.8 FGA >> 21.6% USG >> Porter
18.2 ppg » 57.7% TS% » 13.7 FGA >> 21.1% USG >> Porter

Lucky’s two main offensive weapons for this series, Hayes and Walton, were either wildly inefficient (especially for a big man) or simply didn’t score very much. As a comparison here’s Waltons peak scoring year compared to our 4th option (that can actually play like a 4th option):

Dikembe Mutombo peak year: 13.4 PPG >> 58.4% TS >> 14.3% USG
Bill Walton peak year: 18.9 PPG >> 55.4% TS >> 24.5% USG

And as PSK pointed out in his previous post, Love has done an good job throughout his career as a post defender. So if Lucky wants to run his offense through an inefficient scorer into a solid post-man defender and an elite help-side defender in Dik, then that’s a match-up we more than welcome.

We just don’t see a way Lucky keeps everyone involved and playing to their full potential. There isn’t enough ball to go around. Porter, a talented player, essentially becomes a spot-up shooter and has his playmaking ability severely neutered with 4 high usage guys around him. Erving, Hondo and Hayes all can’t be the extremely high usage guys that made them great. Walton has one of the worst possible match-ups for him defensively in a mobile/athletic center that is proven as one of the greatest defensive players ever.

Lucky has assembled a great collection of talent, but it’s exactly that; talent not a team.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 05:09 AM
I'd also like to hear how Lucky plans to guard KD. While KD's listed height is 6-9, he's admitted he lies about that. His actual height appears to be around 6-11 to 7 feet. So if Lucky puts Hondo on KD, he's giving up 6-7 inches where KD can just shoot over him. And if he puts Dr. J on KD, he's still giving up 4 inches to KD. Either way, KD should be able to shoot over whoever Lucky has who defends him. Also, while Hondo was an excellent defender, Dr. J had only 1 all-defensive team in the ABA, which doesn't really count. So while that doesn't say Dr. J is a bad or average defender per say, it also doesn't say he's a great one either. Certainly not compared to the other great defenders in this game. So we feel like he'd struggle to guard KD. And as we mentioned earlier, Hondo is just too small. KD would shoot over him every time.

Also, we feel our pick and roll attack will be devastating because CP3, Cooper, KD and Love are all good passers and all of them can shoot as well. So you can't trap and if you try switching, you let us dictate what matchups we want.

We'll explain a bit more of our offensive gameplan tomorrow.

Ebbs
06-01-2016, 11:54 AM
damn this one is so tough

KnicksorBust
06-01-2016, 12:02 PM
I don't time to read PSK/Jam's nerd report but will later. The interesting part would have been if the real life Thunder won a chip this year how would that have changed people's viewpoint of this team.

xnick5757
06-01-2016, 12:28 PM
Theres an argument to be made that PSK/Jam have the two best players in this series

Ebbs
06-01-2016, 12:45 PM
So disrespectful to Dr. J and Hondo... lol

roshan3ai
06-01-2016, 01:28 PM
In addition, we have questions as to how Lucky is going to get his offense to gel together without severely limiting why his players became so great. Hayes, Hondo and Erving and Walton did not play second fiddle to anybody in their primes and had the ball in their hands as unquestioned #1 options. Lucky has already mentioned that Hayes and Walton will see a majority of the possessions in this series. Is limiting opportunities for Erving and Hondo, by far his two best scorers, really the best course of action?

Here’s a chart of each of Lucky’s starting 5 best PPG season and their corresponding TS%, FGA and USG rate when applicable.

18.9 ppg » 55.4% TS% » 14.3 FGA >> 24.5% USG >> Walton
28.4 ppg » 48.3% TS% » 25.4 FGA >> Hayes
28.7 ppg » 46.8% TS% » 27 FGA >> Hayes
23.7 ppg » 54.4% TS% » 18.5 FGA >> Hayes
26.9 ppg » 56.8% TS% » 20.4 FGA >> 30.3% USG >> Dr. J
24.4 ppg » 59.3% TS% » 17.6 FGA >> 28.1% USG >> Dr. J
24.2 ppg » 53.3% TS% » 19.6 FGA >> Hondo
28.9 ppg » 51.3% TS% » 24.5 FGA >> Hondo
17 ppg » 63.2% TS% » 11.7 FGA >> 19.6% USG >> Porter
18.1 ppg » 57.5% TS% » 13.8 FGA >> 21.6% USG >> Porter
18.2 ppg » 57.7% TS% » 13.7 FGA >> 21.1% USG >> Porter

Lucky’s two main offensive weapons for this series, Hayes and Walton, were either wildly inefficient (especially for a big man) or simply didn’t score very much. As a comparison here’s Waltons peak scoring year compared to our 4th option (that can actually play like a 4th option):

Dikembe Mutombo peak year: 13.4 PPG >> 58.4% TS >> 14.3% USG
Bill Walton peak year: 18.9 PPG >> 55.4% TS >> 24.5% USG

And as PSK pointed out in his previous post, Love has done an good job throughout his career as a post defender. So if Lucky wants to run his offense through an inefficient scorer into a solid post-man defender and an elite help-side defender in Dik, then that’s a match-up we more than welcome.

We just don’t see a way Lucky keeps everyone involved and playing to their full potential. There isn’t enough ball to go around. Porter, a talented player, essentially becomes a spot-up shooter and has his playmaking ability severely neutered with 4 high usage guys around him. Erving, Hondo and Hayes all can’t be the extremely high usage guys that made them great. Walton has one of the worst possible match-ups for him defensively in a mobile/athletic center that is proven as one of the greatest defensive players ever.

Lucky has assembled a great collection of talent, but it’s exactly that; talent not a team.

Well which version of Kevin Love do you want to use? Because the Kevin Love who you probably wanna use that averaged 24-14 on good efficiency was a 29% USG player. Then he gets dealt, in his prime, to a team with perhaps the best playmaker on the game for what should be the best fits on paper you can think of for Love. You are asking him to basically be the same player he is now for Cleveland as a third option who is mostly a floor spacer, and he's been pretty underwhelming. His shooting efficiency dropped as did his rebounding.

Also, Elvin Hayes wasn't wildly inefficient during the time period he played. In his 3-year prime when they won the chip, his TS% was 52% which was above average for that time period and he was able to co-exist with Dandridge to win a chip while they each averaged 19 PPG in the playoffs. The season before they won the chip, his TS% was 54% which was better than guys like Moses, Parish and Rick Barry.

I'm not convinced at all that Kevin Love is stopping him especially because those post defense stats are during an era where the post game is almost a lost art. There are only a few 4's during Love's era who make their living down in the post. You're trying to sit here and tell me Kevin Love is going to win his matchup versus Hayes mostly based on his TS% and usage and I'm not buying it.

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 01:48 PM
Edit: Made me post when I wasn't done with my post haha

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 02:11 PM
Alright. I'm not going to use a quote because there's a lot here and you guys said certain things that are similar.


Let's start with all this height and defense talk. First off, because my players aren't current, their height that is listed isn't true. Someone like Havlicek was listed at 6-5 in socks, meaning he's probably around 6-7. You know who was measured at 6-7 at the combine? Kevin Love. I can go on all day about heights of NBA players that aren't true. Nearly every player, short or tall, has a deceiving measurement. So let's not get into that argument. It's pointless.

Also, this talk about height and length = a good defender that will shut down a small player is dumb. Saying Kevin Durant will shut down John Havlicek because of a height difference simply isn't true. And I can just as easily turn around and say Havlicek will shut down Chris Paul because of his height and length difference. The difference is Havlicek is one of greatest defenders of all time. Trust me, I will gladly take Havlicek being taken out of the game offensively if it means Chris Paul will be.


_______


You're discrediting my team because of the amount of talent on it. They could absolutely play well together and compliment each other. Erving averaged over 4 assists per game. Havlicek averaged 5-6 assists per game. Bill Walton averaged 5 assists per game, and is considered one of the greatest passing big men of all time. Terry Porter averaged 9 assists per game. The only player in my starting lineup who isn't a good passer is Hayes. Everyone else is considered a team player who shared the ball. It wouldn't be fair to discredit them just because they're all capable of taking over a game offensively too, which is what you're doing.

_______

And yes, I still absolutely want to play through my big men. You're simplifying Elvin Hayes' offensive game to just post ups, as if that's all he was capable of. As I already stated, Hayes had a variety of ways to score. He posted up, had a jump shot and was one of the best finishers in transition. His turnaround jump shot was one of the most unguardable shots in his era.

Here are his averages against some of the games all-time best defenders:

23 PPG and 14 RBG vs Kareem Abdul Jabbar (16 games)

31 PPG and 17 BPG vs Wilt Chamberlain (19 games)

28 PPG and 21 RBG vs Willis Reed (17 games)

24 PPG and 16 RBG vs Nate Thurmond (23 games)

27 PPG and 14 RPG vs Dave Cowens (10 games)

28 PPG and 19 RPG vs Wes Unseld (20 games)

24 PPG and 16 RPG vs Bill Russell (5 games in Russell's last season, although Russell got 1st team all defense that year).

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 02:18 PM
Also, Elvin Hayes wasn't wildly inefficient during the time period he played. In his 3-year prime when they won the chip, his TS% was 52% which was above average for that time period and he was able to co-exist with Dandridge to win a chip while they each averaged 19 PPG in the playoffs. The season before they won the chip, his TS% was 54% which was better than guys like Moses, Parish and Rick Barry.

I'm not convinced at all that Kevin Love is stopping him especially because those post defense stats are during an era where the post game is almost a lost art. There are only a few 4's during Love's era who make their living down in the post. You're trying to sit here and tell me Kevin Love is going to win his matchup versus Hayes mostly based on his TS% and usage and I'm not buying it.

We'll address your point in full but I just want to quickly point out the hypocrisy in this post. First, you say Elvin Hayes wasn't inefficient for his era which is fine on it's own. But then you go and say Love's Post stats wouldn't hold up because of the era he plays in. So basically, in the 1st paragraph, you want to be fair to Hayes by not holding his era against him and saying he's not inefficient. But in the 2nd paragraph, you completely hold Love's era against him. Be consistent. Either admit Hayes is inefficient and feel free to hold Love's era against him or compare them against their peers in their era. So if Hayes was efficient for his era, then Love's done well guarding the Post in his era.

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 02:20 PM
Continued* My computer keeps making me post halfway through.

So yes, I absolutely feel comfortable having Kevin Love guard Elvin Hayes. Please, I really hope you do. And as Rosh stated above, Elvin Hayes was actually efficient for the era he played in. His FG% was often times higher or around the same of Love's.

And as for Bill Walton, when I said I want to play the ball through him, I meant in the halfcourt he's going to touch the ball nearly every possession. As I stated, the ball being in his hands forces Mutombo to come out of the paint leaving no rim protector. If he doesn't come out to contest Walton, he will make him pay with his jumper. So no, Walton may not be taking majority of the shots, but when he has the ball at the start of possessions it completely ruins what PSK and Jamal want to do defensively.

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 02:37 PM
Theres an argument to be made that PSK/Jam have the two best players in this series

I don't see this at all. Julius Erving and Kevin Durant are the two best players in this series and it's very close between them. After those two I would have Bill Walton and John Havlicek over Chris Paul. Obviously you can turn around and say I'm biased. But I really don't see how you can have Chris Paul over all three of Julius Erving, John Havlicek and Bill Walton.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 02:42 PM
Well which version of Kevin Love do you want to use? Because the Kevin Love who you probably wanna use that averaged 24-14 on good efficiency was a 29% USG player. Then he gets dealt, in his prime, to a team with perhaps the best playmaker on the game for what should be the best fits on paper you can think of for Love. You are asking him to basically be the same player he is now for Cleveland as a third option who is mostly a floor spacer, and he's been pretty underwhelming. His shooting efficiency dropped as did his rebounding.


Not true at all unless you're only looking at box score stats. If you look at either his raw on-off #'s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/on-off/2016/) or the advanced (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM) on-off #'s (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit#gid=0), Love's been very impactful for the Cavs. Furthermore, the reason his efficiency has been down is because he's been playing with ball stopping Kyrie Irving, who dribbles away possessions while holding the ball for 10 seconds for no reason. Look at Love's splits, with (http://nbawowy.com/u11zxf3lq4pg72tmcubnsif6r) and without Kyrie (http://nbawowy.com/h29st05cld5amlqv2qehfr) (but with Lebron) and you can see he's very efficient. With Lebron and w/o Kyrie, he's actually shooting nearly 40% from 3. We won't have that problem of our PG dribbling away possessions while not moving the ball because CP3 is the ultimate pass first PG. And KD is also a ball mover. So Love's efficiency should actually increase from what it is in Cleveland because he won't have Kyrie's ball stopping weighing it down. It's a lot harder to shoot when your PG has dribbled the ball till 5 seconds in the shot clock and you finally receive a pass from him with 2 seconds left on the clock and you have to jack up a contested shot. CP3 and KD won't let that happen. And like playing with Lebron, Love should see an increase in his efficiency.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 03:04 PM
I don't see this at all. Julius Erving and Kevin Durant are the two best players in this series and it's very close between them. After those two I would have Bill Walton and John Havlicek over Chris Paul. Obviously you can turn around and say I'm biased. But I really don't see how you can have Chris Paul over all three of Julius Erving, John Havlicek and Bill Walton.

Unless you are falling into the trap of ringz (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/), there (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aMH3vQxB9YBAAHu9NLKsF1n5R8FNRGGi28_irbIF0eY/edit#gid=208722622) is a (http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/) very (https://thecauldron.si.com/a-case-for-chris-paul-second-best-point-guard-of-all-time-a64f168054a6#.kcgwq186h) good case (http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba) for (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chris-paul-is-a-point-god/) Chris (http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/09/13/is-chris-paul-the-best-point-guard-ever/) Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html) over Hondo and Walton (CP3's ahead of both in Pelton's championship added metric, as well as being ahead in career WS, career PER and career BPM). Also, Walton has no case for longevity on CP3 seeing as how he's played way way less minutes in his career because he got injured. I really don't see any case for Walton outside of just saying ringz.

Certainly legacy wise, Hondo's better. Although a primary reason for a lot of his rings is the defense of Bill Russell, who gets underrated.

The case for CP3 over Dr. J isn't that great. Although if you went peak #'s, you could make a case. But I won't go there. I definitely do think there's a great case for him over Hondo and over Walton, I don't see how you could say Walton's better unless you just say Walton has more rings and leave it at that. He does have an MVP which probably should've gone to Kareem. CP3 also should have an MVP that went to Kobe (who may have deserved it in 06 if he deserved any MVPs)

Edit: To be honest, I actually don't think there's that much of a difference between KD and CP3.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 03:14 PM
Theres an argument to be made that PSK/Jam have the two best players in this series

Looking just at peak stats, sure. But career wise, Dr. J is definitely ahead of both KD and CP3. Good article here (http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba) that covers that. Dr J at 14.

But I do think there's a good case for them as the 2nd and 3rd best if you look at basketball as a team sport and don't just count the number of rings. Hondo got to play with Russell, maybe the best teammate/leader ever and someone who probably gets underrated in these games. Even from a statistical standpoint, Russell shows up very well in that previously mentioned article checking in at 5th overall (http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba).

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 03:31 PM
Unless you are falling into the trap of ringz (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/), there (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aMH3vQxB9YBAAHu9NLKsF1n5R8FNRGGi28_irbIF0eY/edit#gid=208722622) is a (http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/) very (https://thecauldron.si.com/a-case-for-chris-paul-second-best-point-guard-of-all-time-a64f168054a6#.kcgwq186h) good case (http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba) for (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chris-paul-is-a-point-god/) Chris (http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/09/13/is-chris-paul-the-best-point-guard-ever/) Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html) over Hondo and Walton (CP3's ahead of both in Pelton's championship added metric, as well as being ahead in career WS, career PER and career BPM). Also, Walton has no case for longevity on CP3 seeing as how he's played way way less minutes in his career because he got injured. I really don't see any case for Walton outside of just saying ringz.

Certainly legacy wise, Hondo's better. Although a primary reason for a lot of his rings is the defense of Bill Russell.

The case for CP3 over Dr. J isn't that great. Although if you went peak #'s, you could make a case. But I won't go there. I definitely do think there's a great case for him over Hondo and over Walton, I don't see how you could say Walton's better unless you just say Walton has more rings and leave it at that. He does have an MVP which probably should've gone to Kareem. CP3 also should have an MVP that went to Kobe (who may have deserved it in 06 if he deserved any MVPs)

All I said was I see zero case to have Chris Paul over all three of Julius Erving, John Havlicek and Bill Walton.

We've had this conversation about rings in past match-ups. When I had players such as Tim Hardaway, Sidney Moncrief, Chris Mullin and Karl Malone, as well as Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber and Penny Hardaway. Perhaps my memory is incorrect, but I remember you insisting I should put more stock into championships and playoffs when evaluating players. Now you complain about "ringz."

If I cared about "ringz" I would have brought up how 8 of my 10 players have won a championship, two of which winning finals MVP. I would have brought up how your team consists of playoff failures who have choked when given the proper teams and chances to win. But I didn't, because I haven't in the past and I'd like to think I'm fairly consistent with my thinking. In the past I've thought that was weak argument, and I still do, regardless of whether or not it favors me.

roshan3ai
06-01-2016, 04:04 PM
We'll address your point in full but I just want to quickly point out the hypocrisy in this post. First, you say Elvin Hayes wasn't inefficient for his era which is fine on it's own. But then you go and say Love's Post stats wouldn't hold up because of the era he plays in. So basically, in the 1st paragraph, you want to be fair to Hayes by not holding his era against him and saying he's not inefficient. But in the 2nd paragraph, you completely hold Love's era against him. Be consistent. Either admit Hayes is inefficient and feel free to hold Love's era against him or compare them against their peers in their era. So if Hayes was efficient for his era, then Love's done well guarding the Post in his era.

Fair point, didn't think of it that way.

But Hayes played well against some great post defenders in his era, and Kevin Love's post stats in this era really won't convince me that he will shut down Elvin Hayes like you claimed.

That's the point of this game, to argue how players of different eras would match up with each other. If you wanna preach spacing and stuff from the modern era you gotta at least acknowledge that back then the post game was a lot more physical and prevalent than it is now. You're using Love's defensive PPP stats to convince us he can stop an Hall of famer with one of the best post games of his time. I just don'y buy it.

roshan3ai
06-01-2016, 04:14 PM
Not true at all unless you're only looking at box score stats. If you look at either his raw on-off #'s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/on-off/2016/) or the advanced (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM) on-off #'s (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit#gid=0), Love's been very impactful for the Cavs. Furthermore, the reason his efficiency has been down is because he's been playing with ball stopping Kyrie Irving, who dribbles away possessions while holding the ball for 10 seconds for no reason. Look at Love's splits, with (http://nbawowy.com/u11zxf3lq4pg72tmcubnsif6r) and without Kyrie (http://nbawowy.com/h29st05cld5amlqv2qehfr) (but with Lebron) and you can see he's very efficient. With Lebron and w/o Kyrie, he's actually shooting nearly 40% from 3. We won't have that problem of our PG dribbling away possessions while not moving the ball because CP3 is the ultimate pass first PG. And KD is also a ball mover. So Love's efficiency should actually increase from what it is in Cleveland because he won't have Kyrie's ball stopping weighing it down. It's a lot harder to shoot when your PG has dribbled the ball till 5 seconds in the shot clock and you finally receive a pass from him with 2 seconds left on the clock and you have to jack up a contested shot. CP3 and KD won't let that happen. And like playing with Lebron, Love should see an increase in his efficiency.

I agree fully on the Kyrie point. Those Kyrie off court stats weren't really surprising but definitely cool to see. But on your team, Love's still going to be the third option playing a ton off the ball and not being involved as much as when he is the 1st or 2nd option.

You said it yourself that one of the main ways your team plans to score is the CP-KD pick and roll, meaning Love is going to have to do a lot of what he does with the Cavs now with Kyrie and Love which is stick in the corner and space the floor. Sure he's been solid for the Cavs, but I really don't think he's been great. I know CP3 also is able to bring out the best in his teammates, but you'd be fooling yourself if you don't think him and KD aren't going to be handling the ball most of the time.

The_Jamal
06-01-2016, 04:23 PM
We aren't claiming that Love can stop Hayes. We already admitted that Love isn't a good defender. But we're pointing out that he has had success defending in the post and we have one of the best help-defenders ever in Dik to come over and make life difficult. Hayes wasn't just a post player, but that where he made his money. It's not a slam-dunk match-up that Lucky is trying to make it out to be, although still one in his favor.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 04:36 PM
Alright. I'm not going to use a quote because there's a lot here and you guys said certain things that are similar.


Let's start with all this height and defense talk. First off, because my players aren't current, their height that is listed isn't true. Someone like Havlicek was listed at 6-5 in socks, meaning he's probably around 6-7. You know who was measured at 6-7 at the combine? Kevin Love. I can go on all day about heights of NBA players that aren't true. Nearly every player, short or tall, has a deceiving measurement. So let's not get into that argument. It's pointless.

Also, this talk about height and length = a good defender that will shut down a small player is dumb. Saying Kevin Durant will shut down John Havlicek because of a height difference simply isn't true. And I can just as easily turn around and say Havlicek will shut down Chris Paul because of his height and length difference. The difference is Havlicek is one of greatest defenders of all time. Trust me, I will gladly take Havlicek being taken out of the game offensively if it means Chris Paul will be.


I do agree that NBA heights are all over the place. However, isn't someone like Havlicek/the Celts more likely to lie about his height being taller than he really is? KD lies about himself being shorter so he doesn't have to play PF all the time. I won't discount Love being shorter than he's listed but for us, that doesn't matter much since Hayes is around the same height. And as we showed, Love's done well in the post.

KD's a very good defender in his own right. And he showed how good he can be on defense in the Warriors/Spurs series when he's locked in. Will have to find the article but there were numerous times when he was switched onto Curry and his length deterred Curry from shooting. And then there's his play at the rim, where Draymond Green was 0-11 against him (https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/735346240628654080) until he finally got a basket in game 7 (?).

Regarding Hondo's length and athlecism being an advantage against CP3, we addressed this when we said we'd run a lot of pick and roll. Are you going to trap CP3? Leave KD open? Are you going to switch? If you switch our primary pick and roll (CP3-KD), we'd have an advantage with Hondo guarding KD and Dr. J guarding CP3. We like CP3's ability to blow by Dr. J and get to the basket and we think KD could just shoot over Hondo. Additionally, we can run pick and roll with CP3 and Cooper so that we get Porter switched back onto CP3.

The thing about our offense is that we aren't iso heavy or post heavy. We'll have movement in our offense and we'll play similar to the current Warriors with a lot of screens so we can dictate matchups. So you can't just say you'll stick Hondo on CP3 because we'll run pick and rolls to get Hondo off CP3. The great thing about our offense is that it utilizes the strengths of CP3 being one of the best pick and roll guards in the NBA.

In contrast, you said your offense is going to run a lot of Post Ups for your bigs, which is a more stagnant offense and will allow us to play more one on one defense, which is why we like our chances of our top defenders constantly sticking on your top offensive players.

Also, as we saw in CP3's series clinching shot over the Spurs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkpv8Qv_x_U), both Danny Green and Duncan guarded CP3 on that shot. So he clearly was able to deal with the taller/longer players.

As for Hondo being guarded by KD, we're not saying KD would block him all the time. We're just saying KD's length and athleticism would give Hondo problems. I mean it gave the 73 win Warriors problems (https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7) as they were often afraid to shoot over him and even the current league MVP wasn't that great when defended by KD (https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/735296214896414726). If KD can make the current MVP, whose a much better offensive player than Hondo, see ghosts (https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7), we like our chances with KD on Hondo.

Now obviously KD can't play defense like that for a full season nor has he ever tried to but for 1 series? Sure.

The_Jamal
06-01-2016, 05:30 PM
Well which version of Kevin Love do you want to use? Because the Kevin Love who you probably wanna use that averaged 24-14 on good efficiency was a 29% USG player. Then he gets dealt, in his prime, to a team with perhaps the best playmaker on the game for what should be the best fits on paper you can think of for Love. You are asking him to basically be the same player he is now for Cleveland as a third option who is mostly a floor spacer, and he's been pretty underwhelming. His shooting efficiency dropped as did his rebounding.



Here's the USG rate of our starting 5 peaks:

Kevin Durant: 31.4% USG
Kevin Love: 28.8% USG
Chris Paul: 26.6% USG
Dikembe Mutombo: 17.5% USG
Michael Cooper: 15.5% USG

Looks like a real team no?

Appreciate you bringing up a main selling point of our team that we're actually constructed like a real roster. There's a clear offensive hierachy and players who can fit perfectly together like a glove. Dik was Tyson Chandler offensively before Tyson Chandler existed, making his living off lobs, offensive rebounds, and PnR's. It should also be noted that Dikembe had an INSANE
Shaq/Harden level FT rate of 60%+ during his prime while being a 70% FT shooter. Cooper is there has a 38% 3pt shooter and occasional play maker when we need it.

Of course CP3, Love and Durant would all take a small hit in Usage, as does any teams top offensive weapons because it's an all-time game, but because all 3 are effective catch and shoot players, they can remain involved in the offense off the PnR game.

Lucky.
06-01-2016, 05:45 PM
I do agree that NBA heights are all over the place. However, isn't someone like Havlicek/the Celts more likely to lie about his height being taller than he really is?

What? What does this even mean? No, I don't think John Havlicek is more likely to lie about his height than your average NBA player.


KD's a very good defender in his own right. And he showed how good he can be on defense in the Warriors/Spurs series when he's locked in. Will have to find the article but there were numerous times when he was switched onto Curry and his length deterred Curry from shooting. And then there's his play at the rim, where Draymond Green was 0-11 at the rim against him (https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/735346240628654080) until he finally got a basket in game 7 (?).

Although I agree that he played very well, you're essentially pointing to one series as an example. Saying the player he was guarding shot a poor percentage on less than 10 shot attempts. Not to mention those tweets you provided were from May 24th (game 4?), making it an even smaller sample size. You also said Draymond Green (y'know, that guy that doesn't compare to a top 30 player of all time and had an extremely poor series no matter who guarded him) shot 0-11 at the rim, when the tweet clearly says that 8 of those 11 shot attempts were 3pt attempts. Certainly seems like a deceiving post.


Regarding Hondo's length and athlecism being an advantage against CP3, we addressed this when we said we'd run a lot of pick and roll. Are you going to trap CP3? Leave KD open? Are you going to switch? If you switch our primary pick and roll (CP3-KD), we'd have an advantage with Hondo guarding KD and Dr. J guarding CP3. We like CP3's ability to blow by Dr. J and get to the basket and we think KD could just shoot over Hondo. Additionally, we can run pick and roll with CP3 and Cooper so that we get Porter switched back onto CP3.

The thing about our offense is that we aren't iso heavy or post heavy. We'll have movement in our offense and we'll play similar to the current Warriors with a lot of screens so we can dictate matchups. So you can't just say you'll stick Hondo on CP3 because we'll run pick and rolls to get Hondo off CP3. The great thing about our offense is that it utilizes the strengths of CP3 being one of the best pick and roll guards in the NBA.

In contrast, you said your offense is going to run a lot of Post Ups for your bigs, which is a more stagnant offense and will allow us to play more one on one defense, which is why we like our chances of our top defenders constantly sticking on your top offensive players.

As I said, realistically Havlicek is about 6 foot 7. If he was to switch onto Kevin Durant late in the shot clock, I'll be okay with that. I'm sure one of the greatest defenders of all time won't fold under pressure just because he's giving up a few inches. No, I don't expect anyone to shut down Kevin Durant. But I certainly have the players that are capable of making him work for his points and force him to take tough shots. Going back to my very 1st post of this thread, I said if Chris Paul or Kevin Durant has an off night, I will win. Every time. You don't have anyone else that is capable of taking over a ball game when things get bad. I do. Erving can have an off night and I can still win. Havlicek can have an off night and I can win. Walton can have an off night and I can win. Why? Because I have 6 players total that can take over a game offensively if needed, 5 of which being good playmakers as well.

I also never said I'll be running a lot of posts. I'd love to know where I said that. I don't even think I mentioned the post when referring to Bill Walton. It's like you assume big men pre-1990 could only post up. Hopefully it's the last time I have to mention it, but both Hayes and Walton were capable of scoring in a variety of ways. Both have reliable jump shots that you have to respect. Yes, Hayes will also be posting up. No, just because Bill Walton will touch the ball a lot doesn't mean he'll be posting up against Dikembe Mutombo on a consistent bases. He, for the 3rd time, will force Mutombo to come out of the paint leaving you no rim protector.

It's also like you assume I can't also use the pick and roll/pop, especially with my bigs. As if the only way I can possibly get them involved is through post ups.


Also, as we saw in CP3's series clinching shot over the Spurs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkpv8Qv_x_U), both Danny Green and Duncan guarded CP3 on that shot. So he clearly was able to deal with the taller/longer players.

"As you can see by this one play, Paul was clearly able to deal with taller and longer defenders. Check, and mate."

Wait right here while I go get some Youtube clips of my players. Should be a fun learning experience for all of those involved.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 06:40 PM
We aren't claiming that Love can stop Hayes. We already admitted that Love isn't a good defender. But we're pointing out that he has had success defending in the post and we have one of the best help-defenders ever in Dik to come over and make life difficult. Hayes wasn't just a post player, but that where he made his money. It's not a slam-dunk match-up that Lucky is trying to make it out to be, although still one in his favor.

Exactly. I already admitted earlier that Love wasn't a good defender. But being a poor defender doesn't mean you suck at all aspects of defense. One of Love's few strengths on defense is his ability to guard in the post. We admitted he's not good defending in space. But we also don't know that you have anyone to really take advantage of that weak aspect of Love's defense. And as Jam said, Dik's one of the best help defenders ever.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 07:47 PM
What? What does this even mean? No, I don't think John Havlicek is more likely to lie about his height than your average NBA player.

Meaning that the players who typically lie about their height are guys who either don't want to play up a position (so in KD's case, he doesn't want to play PF) or guys who don't want to seem too small (so a PG like Barea listing himself as 6 feet to make himself sound taller). In Hondo's case, he was a wing. Is there any reason for him to lie the way KD does so he doesn't have to play up a position? So what I meant by that is Hondo's not likely lying about himself being shorter than he really is because no one would list him at PF based on his height (again, the reason KD lists himself as being smaller than he really is). Would there be reason for him to exaggerate his height? Possibly. Anyways, my point is that I think the 6-5 Havlicek is listed as is more likely to be accurate then some PG whose trying to make himself look bigger than he actually is or someone like KD whose trying to make himself smaller because he doesn't want to play PF full time.



Although I agree that he played very well, you're essentially pointing to one series as an example. Saying the player he was guarding shot a poor percentage on less than 10 shot attempts. Not to mention those tweets you provided were from May 24th (game 4?), making it an even smaller sample size. You also said Draymond Green (y'know, that guy that doesn't compare to a top 30 player of all time and had an extremely poor series no matter who guarded him) shot 0-11 at the rim, when the tweet clearly says that 8 of those 11 shot attempts were 3pt attempts. Certainly seems like a deceiving post.

Regarding the 0-11 stat, I screwed up there. Edited that. If I was actually trying to deceive, I wouldn't have linked the tweet lol.

Unfortunately, I don't have that data for the full series. Not my fault the NBA isn't more open about their stats. Believe me, would've rather quoted the full series stats as I don't think they're much different. Also, Green was mostly being covered by KD.

While I do understand the sample size criticism, my point was more about KD having the skills to be great defensively and the fact that he's shown it on the court. Also, given we are talking about a 7 game series between our two teams, I think showing KD can be that great over 7 games (which is the longest our series would be) is relevant.

However, I'm willing to provide other stats that show's KD's a very good defender. If you look at his multiyear RAPM for example (which measures your impact on your team on defense, adjusting for your teammates and the opponent), he's at +1.41 on defense. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit#gid=0) Then consider the fact that in the regular season, he puts less energy on the defensive end because he has to carry his team offensively. That was exactly my reason for mentioning his defense in the playoffs this year. Because he CAN ramp up his defense when he needs too. Also, he was very good on defense in the Spurs series as well. For example, in that Spurs series, Kawhi's TS% dropped nearly 10% when KD was on the court vs. when he was off (http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=201142&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=PerGame&PlusMinus=N&PaceAdjust=N&Rank=N&Outcome=&Location=&Month=0&SeasonSegment=&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&GameSegment=&Period=0&LastNGames=0). Here's the per game breakdown as well (http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=201142&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals&PlusMinus=N&PaceAdjust=N&Rank=N&Outcome=&Location=&Month=0&SeasonSegment=&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&GameSegment=&Period=0&LastNGames=0). So the point behind bringing up his defense in the playoffs is to show he has another level from his regular season defense which was all ready really good to begin with.

Here's more:

You can also look at the last 3 years of his shot defense, which indicate his opponents have shot 6.3% less when guarded by KD this year (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&CF=D_FGA*GE*100%7CGP*GE*50) (5th best in the league), 4.3% less last year when guarded by KD (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&CF=D_FGA*GE*100&TeamID=1610612760) (in his injury plagued year), and 6.5% worse than their normal % in 2013-14 (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&CF=D_FGA*GE*100%7CGP*GE*50) when guarded by KD (which ranked 3rd best in the league).

And on jump shots, opponents shot 29.1% this year when guarded by KD, 7.4% less than what they normally do. In 13-14, opponents shot 33.9% on jump shots when defended by KD, 3% less than they normally do.

So there's plenty of evidence for you on how KD's length bothers opponents and how for years, they've all shot consistently worse vs. KD than what they normally shoot. He's been one of the best defenders in the Diff% metric (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=D_FGA*GE*100%7CGP*GE*50&PerMode=Totals) in two separate years which measures how much worse opponents shoot when guarded by you vs what they normally shoot.



As I said, realistically Havlicek is about 6 foot 7. If he was to switch onto Kevin Durant late in the shot clock, I'll be okay with that. I'm sure one of the greatest defenders of all time won't fold under pressure just because he's giving up a few inches. No, I don't expect anyone to shut down Kevin Durant. But I certainly have the players that are capable of making him work for his points and force him to take tough shots. Going back to my very 1st post of this thread, I said if Chris Paul or Kevin Durant has an off night, I will win. Every time. You don't have anyone else that is capable of taking over a ball game when things get bad. I do. Erving can have an off night and I can still win. Havlicek can have an off night and I can win. Walton can have an off night and I can win. Why? Because I have 6 players total that can take over a game offensively if needed, 5 of which being good playmakers as well.
.

Fact: Kevin Love's best scoring season is better than Bill Walton's. If you are going to sit there and claim Walton's a great option, than you have to recognize Love.

Walton's top scoring season: 18.9 PPG, 55.4% TS%
Love's top scoring season: 26.1 ppg, 59.1% TS%

You're really short changing Love. I don't know how you can't recognize that he's really good on offense. Call him out on defense, fine but don't insult the guy's offense.

Also, I'd argue a lot of your options are all inefficient. Hayes TS% wasn't that great. For a lot of his career, it was under 50% and at it's best was 52%. Havlicek's TS% was also under 50% for a lot of his career and also at his best around 51% (53% in his best year). Walton's best TS% years came as a role player, otherwise he was around 55% at his best. So the only two guys you have who are really that efficient are Dr. J and Porter. That's a lot of pressure on those 2 guys.

Unlike you, our offense has our stars and is surrounded by high efficiency players.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-01-2016, 08:16 PM
I also never said I'll be running a lot of posts. I'd love to know where I said that. I don't even think I mentioned the post when referring to Bill Walton. It's like you assume big men pre-1990 could only post up. Hopefully it's the last time I have to mention it, but both Hayes and Walton were capable of scoring in a variety of ways. Both have reliable jump shots that you have to respect. Yes, Hayes will also be posting up. No, just because Bill Walton will touch the ball a lot doesn't mean he'll be posting up against Dikembe Mutombo on a consistent bases. He, for the 3rd time, will force Mutombo to come out of the paint leaving you no rim protector.

It's also like you assume I can't also use the pick and roll/pop, especially with my bigs. As if the only way I can possibly get them involved is through post ups.

I checked and you didn't. However, whether you did or not, your best option on offense is still the post up because of the way your team is built. Walton and Hayes were good post up options so it makes sense your offense would run through the post. Unless you don't want to utilize your teams' strengths.

Edit: I know you have Dr. J but my point is that that seems to be the identity of your team. Sure a Dr. J iso would also be a play I'd imagine you'd run a lot.

Our top options are perimeter players who run a lot of pick and roll, hence why our offense is based on the pick and roll.

As for drawing Dik away from the paint, we feel like our perimeter defenders are so great, you'll have limited driving opportunities to get in the paint. Between CP3 and Coop, we have 16 all-defensive teams. And as seen above, KD is very capable himself given his freakish body.

And even if they do, KD has done well as a rim protector in spot duty. I already pointed above how a number of the Warriors struggled to score on KD at the rim (and if I didn't, good article on that here (http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/oklahoma-city-thunder-golden-state-warriors-kevin-durant-draymond-green-052616) plus (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=-1&CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*25) this (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/lt6/?sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals&PlayerPosition=F&CF=FGA_LT_06*GE*10)).

Finally, over the last 3 years, KD's allowed a 48.3% FG% when guarding the rim, which wolud've been one of the better marks in the league this year (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=-1&CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*100&PlayerPosition=F). So he's capable of doing that when necessary.



"As you can see by this one play, Paul was clearly able to deal with taller and longer defenders. Check, and mate."

Wait right here while I go get some Youtube clips of my players. Should be a fun learning experience for all of those involved.

Yeah I didn't really finish my thought there. I know it looks bad ending with that youtube clip but I had more lol.

But my point was that bigger players guard CP3 a lot of times when switched on to him and he's done a good job against them. I'll get some hard stats later on but iirc, CP3's done well when guarded by taller players.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-02-2016, 02:52 PM
All I said was I see zero case to have Chris Paul over all three of Julius Erving, John Havlicek and Bill Walton.

That's fair. Again, I don't think CP3 really has a case over Dr. J. You could argue their peaks I suppose. Hondo's got a much better legacy for sure but looking at some of the all-in-one metric leaderboards (i.e. like WS), CP3's pulled ahead of him. Looking at this article (http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba), CP3 was slightly ahead. But of course stats for Hondo's era are incomplete and that's not even including the fact we have no way of judging impact. I think we can be 99% sure Russell would come out looking great if we had +/- stats for that era. But the Celts were more then just Russell, so I'm sure Hondo would come out looking great too. Anyways, all this being said, I think you can obviously make a case for Hondo over CP3.

Just don't see the case for Walton, who imo, tends to get overrated in these games because of his injury. Lots of guys in this game get penalized for not playing long enough (mostly current guys) but when an injury cuts short a career, we never really seem to care. I mean if we're gonna penalize someone like Kevin Love for being current, then we should at least realize that he's already played more minutes in his career than Bill Walton did (16889 minutes played for Love vs. 13250 minutes played for Walton). Anyways, as others in the game will tell you, I've been mentioning this all game in the chatzies (valade can definitely tell you).

I mean honestly, how much difference is there between someone like Bill Walton and Derrick Rose (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=1987&p1=waltobi01&y2=2016&p2=rosede01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=)? Yes Walton is much better at his best (obviously has a title that he led them too, tho I'd add it was in one of the weaker eras) but they both have MVPs and both had 4 good seasons before getting injured and finishing up a shell of themselves. So there's really a lot of similarities if you really think about it. Obviously Walton's a much better player but just from the stand point of how their careers went and the fact that they both got injured after having an MVP and you realize they aren't that different.

PS- Just to be clear, I am NOT debating their peaks. Obviously Walton's was MUCH MUCH better. More comparing the similarities in how their career was derailed by injuries.



We've had this conversation about rings in past match-ups. When I had players such as Tim Hardaway, Sidney Moncrief, Chris Mullin and Karl Malone, as well as Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber and Penny Hardaway. Perhaps my memory is incorrect, but I remember you insisting I should put more stock into championships and playoffs when evaluating players. Now you complain about "ringz."

Did I? I can certainly agree that I probably mentioned putting more stock into individual playoff performance which is different then just counting how far you advanced. And I probably mentioned something about comparing regular season performance vs. playoff performance- did your guys get a lot worse?

But if I did say that, then I was probably referring to the game itself where everyone seems to put stock in stuff like that. Maybe succumbed to group think.

But personally, I've never really bought into the ringz think except if you want to use it as a tiebreaker when two guys are so even but one guy might have more rings. Basketball's a team game and you really have to look at the supporting casts of a player. And even then, if they have a supporting cast, why didn't they advance? A lot of the time, the title winner is lucky (and good obviously, have to be both). Be it some lucky shot going in or a fortuitous bounce or maybe just health. Some teams just get hot at the right time. Especially in today's NBA- 3 point shooting is so variable that it leads to cold/hot shooting that can last over a full series.



If I cared about "ringz" I would have brought up how 8 of my 10 players have won a championship, two of which winning finals MVP. I would have brought up how your team consists of playoff failures who have choked when given the proper teams and chances to win. But I didn't, because I haven't in the past and I'd like to think I'm fairly consistent with my thinking. In the past I've thought that was weak argument, and I still do, regardless of whether or not it favors me.

I mean you just did :laugh2:



I would have brought up how your team consists of playoff failures who have choked when given the proper teams and chances to win.

I hope you don't actually believe that? I mean the whole term "choker" is part of the stupid "hot take" culture that sports fans have to explain the unexplainable. Does choking exist? Sure, a player can feel pressure but how would you know? I mean, are you in the player's head? Do you know what they're thinking and if they are feeling pressure? How do you know the are? It could just be a random bad play at the wrong time. You have no way of knowing. Unless they repeatedly do it over and over, you can't use 1 play or even 1 game or series to describe someone as a choker.

Specifically regarding CP3, read this article: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/death-to-ringz-chris-paul-and-the-nbas-broken-narrative-of-success/

It's written by the best NBA writer out there, who is widely respected within the league and probably knows more bball then everyone here put together.

Specifically regarding CP3, his teams have often either been injured (or himself) or they've just lost to the better team who had homecourt advantage. Looking at his New Orleans years, are we going to blame him for not winning/advancing when his 2nd best player was David West? Was he even drafted in this game? Most 2nd options get drafted.

So with the Clippers- he lost to the Spurs in his 1st year when they had HCA and were the better team (plus it was ya know his 1st year with the Clippers- still developing chemistry w/ your teammates). Plus DJ was a scrub back then. Oh and CP3 himself was injured in that postseason with a groin strain and a hip flexor injury (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7914423/nba-playoffs-blake-griffin-chris-paul-injuries-hurt-clippers-chances)

The following year, they lost to Memphis when Blake Griffin got injured. He had a severe ankle sprain and played a total of 32 minutes over the final 2 games of that series, which the Clippers lost both. DJ was also still a scrub at that point and certainly played like it (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-first-round-grizzlies-vs-clippers.html#LAC::none) in the 1st round. So hard to blame CP3 when his 2nd best player was injured and the 3rd best player wasn't even that good.

Then in 2014, CP3's team lost to the Thunder (with a guy named Kevin Durant on the team). The Thunder had HCA that year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-semifinals-clippers-vs-thunder.html) and were the better team. And if you do believe KD's better than CP3, then CP3 losing that series to a better player (who is on our team) isn't that big a deal. And again, KD is on our team so that shouldn't be looked at as a negative. Plus, KD kinda went insane (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-semifinals-clippers-vs-thunder.html) in that series.

Finally last year, they lost to the Rockets in a 7 game series without HCA. Did they blow it? Sure. However, people forget that CP3 also missed the first 2 games of that series. He had a strained left hamstring (http://www.nba.com/2015/news/05/08/chris-paul-los-angeles-clippers-to-start-game-3.ap/) (which doesn't always heal quickly) that caused him to miss the first 2 games. Reasonable to assume he might've been playing the entire series injured. And had Doc actually assembled a bench, they probably win that series. Also, let's not forget CP3 was sensational (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-western-conference-first-round-spurs-vs-clippers.html) in the series win over the defending champion Spurs just the round before. That included hitting the series winner that I linked too earlier. How is that not clutch? Game 7, with all the marbles on the line and he hits the shot to win not just that game but the entire series. How many times do you see that? A game 7 series winning shot? It's not often that happens, no matter what the round. If you are going to blame him for that Rockets series (which again, he missed 2 games and was playing injured), then you have to credit him for beating the defending champions on a series winning shot.

And then there's obviously this year, where he got injured and missed the rest of the series. A common them you'll notice with him is he's had really bad luck in terms of injuries. He himself isn't that durable, which you could definitely hold against him. That's a legit complaint. But this game is assuming 100% health so that's kind of irrelevant. Also, if you want to actually LOOK at how he's performed in the playoffs, he's 6th in career playoff PER (KD's 11th) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html), 5th in career playoff WS/48 (KD's 25th, 21st if you remove 50s guys) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html), 3rd in career playoff BPM (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career_p.html), 2nd in career playoff AST% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_pct_career_p.html), 28th in career playoff TS% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career_p.html) and 5th in career playoff Steal% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/stl_pct_career_p.html).
That seems like a playoff performer to me.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-02-2016, 04:03 PM
I would have brought up how your team consists of playoff failures who have choked when given the proper teams and chances to win.

Now to answer this for KD, when has he choked? Let's actually look at this instead of spewing nonsense. In KD's first playoffs, he lost to the eventual champion Lakers who had homecourt while OKC was an 8 seed. KD was also 21 at the time with a 21 year old Westy and a 20 year old Harden. Hard to blame him for losing to the eventual champion when he was 21 years old. However it is worth pointing out that as an 8 seed, the Thunder did win 2 games in that series. That's not really normal.

In 2011, they lost to the eventual champion Mavs in the conference Finals. That's a pretty big step after just losing in the 1st round the year before as an 8 seed. Again, 22 year old KD. And even so, he averaged 28-9-4 on 55.3% TS% with 1.2 steals and 1.4 blocks a game in that series loss. Westbrook was the one who was highly inefficient. So I don't know how you can blame KD for that series when he was really good and at the time, just 22 years old. They also didn't have homecourt and were the inferior team on the season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011.html).

In 2012, they made the Finals obviously and lost to Lebron's Heat who are one of the all-time great teams just as LBJ is one of the all-time great players. KD was still awesome that series, despite being guarded by Lebron. Averaged 31-6-2 on 65% TS% with 1.4 steals ad 1 block a game. I'm not sure how that'd be considered choking. Averaging 30+ ppg with a 65% TS% on Lebron? Are you kidding? No way that can be considered choking. Of course we all remember that series as the series that James Harden decided not to play. And Westbrook wasn't exactly that great either.

In 2013, Westbrook got injured and didn't play in the series they lost to the Grizz. KD still averaged 29-10-7 on 53.1% TS% with 1.2 steals and 1.2 blocks a game. All while playing 46 mins a game over the series. So he didn't have his full team, still tried to carry them but the rest of the supporting cast was pretty bad. 2nd best player on that team in the Grizz series was Reggie Jackson, who wouldn't even sniff an all-time redraft.

In 2014, they lost to the eventual champion Spurs in a series where they were missing Ibaka for 2 games. When they had him, they were 2-2 in the series. Even so, KD averaged 26-8-3 on a 56% TS% with 1.2 steals and 1.2 blocks a game. Pretty good numbers and hard to see how that's choking. The Spurs also had HCA and were a better team on the season. They obliterated the Lebron Heat to the point that they're probably the reason he's back in Cleveland. In fact, that Spurs team was one of the best champions of all-time, 22 (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2015/insider/story/_/id/13000418/nba-finals-where-golden-state-warriors-rank-50-greatest-nba-teams). That Spurs team had the seventh-best adjusted playoff differential on record. Hard to blame KD for losing that series when a) their 3rd best player missed 2 games and b) the Spurs were simply a better team who had HCA and were one of the greatest champions ever in terms of playoff scoring margin. Also, Danny Green hit like a billion% on his 3 pointers that year.

Then obviously in 2015, KD was out and didn't play.

Then this year, yes they blew a 3-1 lead. And yes, KD had a bad game 6 efficiency wise. And yes, his TS% was only 53.9%. He also averaged 30-8-3 with 1.7 steals and 1.7 blocks a game. He also played the most suffocating defense (https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7) of his career and basically erased Draymond Green from existence. His defense made Steph Curry see ghosts (https://amp.twimg.com/v/9d52f096-65f3-4825-bcff-a89e058929e7) for a large part of the series. Oh and despite his bad game 6, he still bounced back with a terrific game 7 where he scored 27 points on a 65% TS%. Is it his fault that Westbrook went 7-21 and had a 41.7% TS% in that last game? Oh and while we're at it, can you really choke when you don't have HCA and are playing what might go down as one of the 2-3 best teams of all time? A team that won 73 games and has the 2x reigning MVP. I mean before the series started, who actually thought the Thunder would win that series? Never mind taking it to 7 games. Let's not also forget that KD was excellent in the series before against the 67 win Spurs who were also heavily favored vs. the Thunder. KD averaged 29-7-4 on a 60.1% TS% while also playing really good defense on Kawhi (http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=201142). So on the whole, did KD and the Thunder really choke when they upset a 67 win team and came a few shots away from beating the record breaking 73 win team in a 7 game series? And even after having a bad game 6, he responded by having a great game 7. By Vegas standards, the Thunder were supposed to lose in the 2nd round and were supposed to lose much quicker to the Warriors. Finally, if the Thunder hadn't gone up 3-1 and instead just lost the series 4-1 like a lot of people thought they might, would anyone have said they choked? Would anyone have said they underperformed? No. So basically, the Thunder mistake was going up 3-1. Should've lost 4-1 and no one would've cared or called them chokers.

Anyways, there you have it. The worst loss in his career came to a 73 win team whose coming off a championship and has a chance to end up being this era's Bulls. So if that makes him a choker, then ya'll are just idiots and don't understand context or basketball.

Lucky.
06-02-2016, 05:52 PM
Essentially everything you just said was unnecessary because I agree with majority of it lol. I thought everyone that played these games knew I don't really care about the whole playoff choke and ring debate. I'm someone that thinks Peyton Manning "choking" is overrated to an extent. So yeah, you're probably not going to find someone that cares less about that sorta stuff :laugh2:

Although for your sake, you better hope others agree. I know that can be a touchy subject :)

roshan3ai
06-03-2016, 12:27 AM
PSK can you please elaborate, I think you were a bit too concise

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 02:19 AM
Essentially everything you just said was unnecessary because I agree with majority of it lol. I thought everyone that played these games knew I don't really care about the whole playoff choke and ring debate. I'm someone that thinks Peyton Manning "choking" is overrated to an extent. So yeah, you're probably not going to find someone that cares less about that sorta stuff :laugh2:

Although for your sake, you better hope others agree. I know that can be a touchy subject :)

Yeah you did say that earlier but once I got going, just had to finish. Also, a lot of that was a continuation of my twitter rants after game 6/7 lol. Also, someone else brought it up earlier in the thread but would prefer not to quote because I thought his post was just ignorance.

Yup, it is a touchy subject which is why I addressed it now rather than later. If someone brings it up, I'll probably just end up referring back to those posts. Much easier so that if we do advance, we can just focus on matchups instead of all that other stuff.

I will say that I liked the fact that we focused more on the matchups.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 02:20 AM
PSK can you please elaborate, I think you were a bit too concise

:laugh2: Yeah that post became way longer than I thought it would.

Lucky.
06-03-2016, 12:06 PM
Bump

Lucky.
06-03-2016, 04:55 PM
Bump for the last time :)

Lucky.
06-03-2016, 05:55 PM
Congrats PSK/Jamal.

valade16
06-03-2016, 06:07 PM
Team No Name (PSK/Jam) win.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-03-2016, 06:31 PM
Congrats PSK/Jamal.

Thanks. Close matchup. Look forward to the rematch next year since we always seem to play each other :laugh2: