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View Full Version : Where would LeBron or Curry rank if they win?



FlashBolt
05-31-2016, 05:27 PM
Right now, LeBron is a top ten player for me. I have him at #7.

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

With a win, he still stays at the same spot. He'll eventually get to top five when his career ends for me.

Curry is a tough one because he lacks longevity thus far but I'd say he would be just outside top 30. Any thoughts?

Chronz
05-31-2016, 07:57 PM
Curry is going to have a long prime, late starts can help players age, like Nash.

Bron needs this win so bad to truly make up for dallas but it's unlikely

mngopher35
05-31-2016, 08:44 PM
I would probably have Curry in the 40 range I wanna say but not sure that could be off. I find it difficult to rank players who still have a lot of years to go. I think he has a good chance to move way up from that number over time though, championships or not. He could "need" to win another probably to get into the teens/top ten range eventually but he should have a lot of time with a very good roster to win. Right now its more about playing at an elite level for a longer amount of time, his peak is crazy good even if he doesn't improve (which we can't rule out).

Lebron is around top 5 for a lot of people I think and if he were to win this with Cleveland plus play a few more good years he likely cements himself there to most. I don't think the Cavs win the series but it might mean a little more to Lebron right now than Curry if it happened just because of how much time Curry has left (and the roster around him). If you take Kobe off your list that is basically what I have too (Magic/Hakeem right there with Lebron though, same tier). For me he would possibly move up to my Duncan/Shaq tier (assuming whoever won also played the best, many variables if not).

CHANGO
05-31-2016, 08:44 PM
Lebron winning would definitely put him on the Top 5 list in many eyes. Beating an historic team would mean a lot for his legacy.

Problem is, that if he loses then they are going to use his Finals record as a knock, without looking at the context.

Curry still have way to go.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2016, 09:03 PM
Lebron is already a top 5 player to most including myself.... Him winning would put him top 3 to me and maybe even top 2 of all time esp considering he would be beating one of the best teams ever in the process.

It all depends on how both play.

FlashBolt
05-31-2016, 09:10 PM
Lebron is already a top 5 player to most including myself.... Him winning would put him top 3 to me and maybe even top 2 of all time esp considering he would be beating one of the best teams ever in the process.

It all depends on how both play.

I've always steered towards this but down his career when he's almost retiring. I think for him to break some more records would be a huge cementer in that regard. Too early for me to put him above the others.. I always hate using rings because I feel outside the Mavs one, they just lost to better teams. The game 6 one for his second ring, Spurs were a better team but Miami just caught a break. It happens. I'm not sure how others rank it but the narrative is that LeBron is 2-4 because of LeBron. That's truer than ever... because no player would be capable of leading those teams to the NBA Finals in many of those seasons.

Anyhow, he is easily going to be a top five if he plays down to at least age 37 in a consistent form and not a huge dropoff in production. IDC if he wins anymore rings but it will surely skyrocket him further. Just a few years ago, him being in the top ten would be scoffed at. He's entered the 6-10 discussion thus far so in about five years, a 3-5 spot wouldn't be ludicrous. I don't think he'll pass Jordan in terms of accolades but IMO, he's a better basketball player than Jordan. Achievements do matter so Jordan is still the top of the top. As for KAJ and Wilt, their longevity and peak dominance were just too much to ignore despite their level of difficulty in the respective league.

Scoots
05-31-2016, 09:23 PM
More mental masturbation. LeBron winning or losing has little effect. Curry winning gets him more likely to be in the discussion, if he loses he's less likely in the discussion.

FlashBolt
05-31-2016, 09:30 PM
More mental masturbation. LeBron winning or losing has little effect. Curry winning gets him more likely to be in the discussion, if he loses he's less likely in the discussion.

ESPN cares more about LeBron losing than Curry winning. If LeBron loses, it will be 2-5. If Curry wins, it comes secondary to LeBron's 2-5.

jerellh528
05-31-2016, 09:34 PM
Lebron winning will put him at 7 on my list, currently he's at 9

Curry winning will put him at about 25, currently unrankable. *needs the fmvp*

Scoots
05-31-2016, 11:23 PM
ESPN cares more about LeBron losing than Curry winning. If LeBron loses, it will be 2-5. If Curry wins, it comes secondary to LeBron's 2-5.

Win or lose LeBron will be top 10. Win or lose Curry wont.

Monta is beast
05-31-2016, 11:35 PM
Curry isnt top 30 yet, LeBron is top 10. Leabron can't/wont fall no matter what. If he wins Curry will rise allot because of this season in its entirety.

naps
05-31-2016, 11:37 PM
LeBron is already top 5 and will go down as the second greatest ever when it's all said and done, as long as he stays healthy rest of his career. He will never eclipse Jordan but then again no one will, ever.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2016, 11:40 PM
I've always steered towards this but down his career when he's almost retiring. I think for him to break some more records would be a huge cementer in that regard. Too early for me to put him above the others.. I always hate using rings because I feel outside the Mavs one, they just lost to better teams. The game 6 one for his second ring, Spurs were a better team but Miami just caught a break. It happens. I'm not sure how others rank it but the narrative is that LeBron is 2-4 because of LeBron. That's truer than ever... because no player would be capable of leading those teams to the NBA Finals in many of those seasons.

Anyhow, he is easily going to be a top five if he plays down to at least age 37 in a consistent form and not a huge dropoff in production. IDC if he wins anymore rings but it will surely skyrocket him further. Just a few years ago, him being in the top ten would be scoffed at. He's entered the 6-10 discussion thus far so in about five years, a 3-5 spot wouldn't be ludicrous. I don't think he'll pass Jordan in terms of accolades but IMO, he's a better basketball player than Jordan. Achievements do matter so Jordan is still the top of the top. As for KAJ and Wilt, their longevity and peak dominance were just too much to ignore despite their level of difficulty in the respective league.

Oh no I agree.... I am assuming he will be lebron for the next 3 plus years and thus think he ends up top 5 nomatter what and top 2 if he does win a ring but its more so beating this warriors team that to me is one of the best teams ever.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2016, 11:41 PM
More mental masturbation. LeBron winning or losing has little effect. Curry winning gets him more likely to be in the discussion, if he loses he's less likely in the discussion.

So Lebron beating one of the best teams ever and winning another ring has little impact of his career? Man do you guys ever get tired of being lebron haters?

bucketss
05-31-2016, 11:42 PM
lebron would get a pretty nice boost if he beats a 73 win team.

nastynice
05-31-2016, 11:55 PM
Curry is way too young to have any business on all time lists yet. Except for shooting.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2016, 11:57 PM
Curry is way too young to have any business on all time lists yet. Except for shooting.

I pretty much think he is the best shooter ever.... the question is where is clay on that list because honestly he might be damn near as good.

nastynice
06-01-2016, 12:47 AM
I pretty much think he is the best shooter ever.... the question is where is clay on that list because honestly he might be damn near as good.

When all said and done, I fully expect him to be the 2nd best shooter of all time. He's really amazing himself, just not the same level as curry who could retire tomorrow and for the time being be the best shooter ever, he needs to put a lil more time in.

ewing
06-01-2016, 05:44 AM
whoever wins this series is clearly the GOAT

KnicksorBust
06-01-2016, 11:25 AM
Right now, LeBron is a top ten player for me. I have him at #7.

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

With a win, he still stays at the same spot. He'll eventually get to top five when his career ends for me.

Curry is a tough one because he lacks longevity thus far but I'd say he would be just outside top 30. Any thoughts?

No Magic? :confused:

My current list:
#1.) MJ
#2.) KAJ
#3.) Magic
#4.) Duncan
#5.) Kobe
#6.) Russell
#7.) LeBron

With a championship I would say enters the top 5.

With a championship for Curry I would feel confident saying he's top 30 of all-time and need to double check my list that deep and do some HW before declaring him top 20/25.

KnicksorBust
06-01-2016, 11:26 AM
I pretty much think he is the best shooter ever.... the question is where is clay on that list because honestly he might be damn near as good.

spelling mistakes almost never annoy me... this did.

KnicksorBust
06-01-2016, 11:27 AM
Curry is way too young to have any business on all time lists yet. Except for shooting.

He's accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History. Of course he has business being put on all-time lists.

FlashBolt
06-01-2016, 11:53 AM
No Magic? :confused:

My current list:
#1.) MJ
#2.) KAJ
#3.) Magic
#4.) Duncan
#5.) Kobe
#6.) Russell
#7.) LeBron

With a championship I would say enters the top 5.

With a championship for Curry I would feel confident saying he's top 30 of all-time and need to double check my list that deep and do some HW before declaring him top 20/25.

Realistically, I can't put Magic ahead of those guys.

1) He never carried the load that those players did or had to do.
2) I'll go as far and say KAJ was probably their best player in some of those Showtime seasons.
3) He had a rather short career.
4) His teams were always stacked. Scott+Worthy+Magic running the offense with KAJ at your center easily outmatched every team.

He's great for what he's done in terms of being the passer but I've never seen him have to do more than that.

Tony_Starks
06-01-2016, 12:19 PM
Currently have him at 9.

He wins and continues to taper off at a allstar level, breaking records along the way, Lebron gets to top 5.

He loses, he never gets higher than 7.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 12:53 PM
LeBron is already top 5 and will go down as the second greatest ever when it's all said and done, as long as he stays healthy rest of his career. He will never eclipse Jordan but then again no one will, ever.

I think Lebron can pass Jordan as #1 when his career is over.

Think about this. Bron is currently #1 all time in Playoff Win Shares. Here are the top 5.
1.Bron 40.07
2.Jordan 39.76
3.Duncan 37.84
4.Kareem 35.56
5.Magic 32.63

Considering he played less than both Kareem and Duncan and has done more already in this category and then add in that he's not close to done. I estimate that he will probably finish around 58-60 Win Shares in the playoffs. That destroys everyone so badly that it will beg the question of how special was this guy to be able to separate himself so far from these other amazing players.


Think about this. Bron is currently 4th in points scored in the playoffs. Here are the top 5.
1.Jordan 5987
2.Kareem 5762
3.Kobe 5640
4.Lebron 5364
5.Shaq 5250

Lebron is not close to done again. I think that he finishes somewhere between 7500-8100 pts for his career in the playoffs. Again he will be on such another level than everyone else it will be hard to ignore that he was just so much more dominant in this aspect.

There are many measures of statistics that Lebron can put away in Wayne Gretzky like fashion and when you dominate statistics in the way that he will, its going to be hard to deny his overall impact. The guy is a machine and with the type of domination he is on course for, I think he has a great chance to be the G.O.A.T

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 01:04 PM
Curry is way too young to have any business on all time lists yet. Except for shooting.

I just don't agree with this line of thinking. The moment you have the best season ever, in my eyes you are among the best players ever. There is a reason nobody has had a season like his, because he is better than they are.

alkalinesolo
06-01-2016, 01:05 PM
I think Lebron can pass Jordan as #1 when his career is over.

Think about this. Bron is currently #1 all time in Win Shares. Here are the top 5.
1.Bron 40.07
2.Jordan 39.76
3.Duncan 37.84
4.Kareem 35.56
5.Magic 32.63

Considering he played less than both Kareem and Duncan and has done more already in this category and then add in that he's not close to done. I estimate that he will probably finish around 58-60 Win Shares in the playoffs. That destroys everyone so badly that it will beg the question of how special was this guy to be able to separate himself so far from these other amazing players.


Think about this. Bron is currently 4th in points scored in the playoffs. Here are the top 5.
1.Jordan 5987
2.Kareem 5762
3.Kobe 5640
4.Lebron 5364
5.Shaq 5250

Lebron is not close to done again. I think that he finishes somewhere between 7500-8100 pts for his career in the playoffs. Again he will be on such another level than everyone else it will be hard to ignore that he was just so much more dominant in this aspect.

There are many measures of statistics that Lebron can put away in Wayne Gretzky like fashion and when you dominate statistics in the way that he will, its going to be hard to deny his overall impact. The guy is a machine and with the type of domination he is on course for, I think he has a great chance to be the G.O.A.T



Lebron is a very special player and has a shot to be the best of all time, but to get there he's going to need to get to 7 championships.

His regular season accomplishments mean nothing when you put him side by side with Jordan's spectacular playoff runs culminating with championships.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 01:10 PM
He's accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History. Of course he has business being put on all-time lists.

10000000% agree. Lebron is first in playoff win shares, 4 in points all time in the playoffs, how could he not be in the top 5 rather easily. All the guys that are below him are!?!? I don't care about your age, I care about your accomplishments.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 01:15 PM
Lebron is a very special player and has a shot to be the best of all time, but to get there he's going to need to get to 7 championships.

His regular season accomplishments mean nothing when you put him side by side with Jordan's spectacular playoff runs culminating with championships.

The numbers I laid out are playoff numbers. If he doesn't win 7 rings but out produces MJ in the playoffs by such a ridiculous margin, then Jordan will have one side of the GOAT argument, and Lebron with have the other side of it. Right now Bill Russell is the GOAT if we are going strictly off rings.

FlashBolt
06-01-2016, 02:01 PM
LeBron isn't getting 7 championships. There's no room to even debate that. What is can get is the 2nd best player of all time. Taking out accolades, I'd say he's the most well-rounded basketball player we've ever seen and probably the first pick to start a team. IDK if he can surpass Jordan because that iconic mythical creature presence is instilled into all of us but you also can't deny that Jordan has won way too much to be discounted for. LeBron needs to win more than just upgrade his stats. Karl Malone has amazing stats but he's barely top 20 for me.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 02:31 PM
LeBron isn't getting 7 championships. There's no room to even debate that. What is can get is the 2nd best player of all time. Taking out accolades, I'd say he's the most well-rounded basketball player we've ever seen and probably the first pick to start a team. IDK if he can surpass Jordan because that iconic mythical creature presence is instilled into all of us but you also can't deny that Jordan has won way too much to be discounted for. LeBron needs to win more than just upgrade his stats. Karl Malone has amazing stats but he's barely top 20 for me.

Having great stats (Karl Malone) and having the best stats (Kareem) puts them in two diff categories. Now think about what having the best stats by far Wayne Gretzky style (future Lebron) will do for someone. He will easily surpass Kareem.

FlashBolt
06-01-2016, 02:52 PM
Having great stats (Karl Malone) and having the best stats (Kareem) puts them in two diff categories. Now think about what having the best stats by far Wayne Gretzky style (future Lebron) will do for someone. He will easily surpass Kareem.

Still, stats are stats and at some point, you do have to win. Padding regular season stats is fun but it's not really going to make anyone excited at the end of the day. Like I said, stats are stats and Karl was great at it. But no one is going to remember about his stats moreso than him having zero rings. That's just a fact. At some point, you gotta say well, stats are only stats and you gotta win more. That's just the life of being an athlete. I also don't think Kareem has the best stats. He just had incredibly longevity. Best stats clearly go to Wilt by default.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 03:36 PM
Still, stats are stats and at some point, you do have to win. Padding regular season stats is fun but it's not really going to make anyone excited at the end of the day. Like I said, stats are stats and Karl was great at it. But no one is going to remember about his stats moreso than him having zero rings. That's just a fact. At some point, you gotta say well, stats are only stats and you gotta win more. That's just the life of being an athlete. I also don't think Kareem has the best stats. He just had incredibly longevity. Best stats clearly go to Wilt by default.

But I'm talkin about playoff stats, not regular stats. Playoff Win Shares Bron is #1. Playoff points Bron is #4. By the time he retires both stats will be impossibly out of reach and he will be on his own statistical island super lonely at the top

FlashBolt
06-01-2016, 04:00 PM
But I'm talkin about playoff stats, not regular stats. Playoff Win Shares Bron is #1. Playoff points Bron is #4. By the time he retires both stats will be impossibly out of reach and he will be on his own statistical island super lonely at the top

Well, LeBron has more playoff wins than Jordan so naturally, his WS would be higher. He's also done more than the rest of those players in terms of ability to play basketball so it's awesome. I just don't see how he surpasses MJ like you said he can. By stats? Realistically, he can be #1 in points, top five in rebounds, #1 in steals, and top 2 in assists for the playoffs. That's amazing... Jesus, holy hell. Which is why I said stats alone can get him to the top five but he needs rings to get above the rest.

IKnowHoops
06-01-2016, 09:01 PM
Well, LeBron has more playoff wins than Jordan so naturally, his WS would be higher. He's also done more than the rest of those players in terms of ability to play basketball so it's awesome. I just don't see how he surpasses MJ like you said he can. By stats? Realistically, he can be #1 in points, top five in rebounds, #1 in steals, and top 2 in assists for the playoffs. That's amazing... Jesus, holy hell. Which is why I said stats alone can get him to the top five but he needs rings to get above the rest.

But if your stats are so outrageously superior, wouldn't that mean you were the better player, just on worse teams?

FlashBolt
06-01-2016, 09:47 PM
But if your stats are so outrageously superior, wouldn't that mean you were the better player, just on worse teams?

At some point, though, to get above other players with great stats, you need to win. Sorry, that's just how it is. If LeBron wins, he should be applauded. If he doesn't win, he shouldn't be as applauded.

Meth
06-01-2016, 11:57 PM
Does Lebron get a pass if he loses this time?

If he won last year, given the context of the series, I would have put him as the GOAT imo. I do think his legacy gets a great boost if he wins this time though.

More-Than-Most
06-02-2016, 12:15 AM
Does Lebron get a pass if he loses this time?

If he won last year, given the context of the series, I would have put him as the GOAT imo. I do think his legacy gets a great boost if he wins this time though.

The warriors are better.... When the warriors win it will just be because they are the better team... to the haters it will be a choke job as usual... There is only 1 year where Lebron actually choked and that was against Dallas and that is the only reason he wont surpass Jordan... He will end up top 3 when all is said and done and probably the 2nd best player of all time but that choke job against the mavs where the heat were far and away the better team will always and should always be held against him

nastynice
06-02-2016, 12:23 AM
He's accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History. Of course he has business being put on all-time lists.

I guess, u got a point, but I just feel like there's so much that can still happen or not happen. I think a finished career can be looked at more accurately and objectively vs comparing current players vs players with full careers. I get what ur saying tho

jerellh528
06-02-2016, 01:14 AM
The warriors are better.... When the warriors win it will just be because they are the better team... to the haters it will be a choke job as usual... There is only 1 year where Lebron actually choked and that was against Dallas and that is the only reason he wont surpass Jordan... He will end up top 3 when all is said and done and probably the 2nd best player of all time but that choke job against the mavs where the heat were far and away the better team will always and should always be held against him

Just wondering, but he's almost 32, what more do you expect him to accomplish in his career that'll put him at number 2? More rings, mvps? I'm not the biggest Lebron fan, but I just don't see him doin any legacy altering things in the next 3 years or so, at least not enough to put him 2 all time. Have to believe his stats and impact will only continue to decline in the next few years. I always see people write stuff like, "when it's all said and done Lebron will be X position all time". But like, he's no spring chicken anymore, what realistically can he do aside from just continuing to play injury free ball?

More-Than-Most
06-02-2016, 01:23 AM
Just wondering, but he's almost 32, what more do you expect him to accomplish in his career that'll put him at number 2? More rings, mvps? I'm not the biggest Lebron fan, but I just don't see him doin any legacy altering things in the next 3 years or so, at least not enough to put him 2 all time. Have to believe his stats and impact will only continue to decline in the next few years. I always see people write stuff like, "when it's all said and done Lebron will be X position all time". But like, he's no spring chicken anymore, what realistically can he do aside from just continuing to play injury free ball?

Maybe one more ring at best and just knocking down a ton of individual records by continuing the pace he is currently on... Of course injury/sharp decline could prevent this but right now I have him around 5-7... If he can sustain this type of play for another 3 seasons and he starts breaking all the records plus another ring that would be enough for me... My top 2 all time is MJ/Magic... After these 2 its very debatable where he is from the 3-8 range in my opinion.

More-Than-Most
06-02-2016, 01:29 AM
He's accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History. Of course he has business being put on all-time lists.

What lol... Because he has 2 mvps and a ring? He has had an amazing 4 years but its just been 4 years with the 3 before that not being anything even very good. If he gets injured tomorrow he never touches anyones top 50 List and would be forgotten in a few years because longevity matters.... ITS BEEN 4 YEARS and 2 of those 4 years have been top 3 player in the league worthy.... Saying he has accomplished more than 99 percent is just flat out wrong and ignorant.

People really take for granted how insanely tough and lucky guys like Lebron/Kobe and so on down the list were for years being able to dodger or work through Injuries/breakdowns.... Curry will end up a top 20 player easily AS LONG AS HE CONTINUES TO DO THIS FOR 4 PLUS MORE SEASONS.... He doesnt need to be at the level he was this year but you need to be great for more than 2-4 seasons in this league.... Hell some people hold it against Magic because of him only having what 13 years?

Kevin Durant has been a god for 8 of his 9 seasons... Like literally one of the best players in the game in 8 of his 9 seasons and he never has once been considering a top 30 player or even a top 50 player right now....


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Look at what this guy has done.... yet all we talk about is curry because of 2 great seasons... Its so disrespectful

FlashBolt
06-02-2016, 01:35 AM
Just wondering, but he's almost 32, what more do you expect him to accomplish in his career that'll put him at number 2? More rings, mvps? I'm not the biggest Lebron fan, but I just don't see him doin any legacy altering things in the next 3 years or so, at least not enough to put him 2 all time. Have to believe his stats and impact will only continue to decline in the next few years. I always see people write stuff like, "when it's all said and done Lebron will be X position all time". But like, he's no spring chicken anymore, what realistically can he do aside from just continuing to play injury free ball?

Well, let's see.. He's still the best player IMO, and if not, the very least he is the second best.

I think it's safe to say he can still be in the top five for the next 2-3 years and maybe top ten for the next five years after that. Yes, I realistically think he can be that good still. The thing with LeBron is he can play power forward and still create problems at the age of 36. He's an amazing passer and that's one thing you never lose. IDC what Nash can't do but I know right now, he'd still be one of the best passers. So I can see him still being a 20/8/8 player in the PF position if it came down to it. Of course, like any player, it has to be under the right circumstance. Realistically, as I mentioned before, LeBron can be:

#1 in playoff points AND steals.
#2 in playoff assists
#5 in playoff rebounds.

That's simply amazing.

He can also break the all-time record in points for a regular season.

That's even more amazing. How many players will ever have that opportunity? KD is probably the only guy capable of doing it other than LeBron and who knows how he will be in ten years? We know he has injury concerns while LeBron has been Iron Man his entire career.

Regular season MVP's I think are out of the question.
DPOY is gone even though I think he got snubbed by Marc Gasol.
I can see him winning one or two more rings. Any more than that and I'd be shocked.

Even if he ends his career now, he's top 7. If he ends it in five years and breaks all those records I mentioned, it's hard to deny him a top five spot. With or without rings, he's already cemented himself as a top ten and I don't think anyone can deny that at this point.

jerellh528
06-02-2016, 02:15 AM
Well, let's see.. He's still the best player IMO, and if not, the very least he is the second best.

I think it's safe to say he can still be in the top five for the next 2-3 years and maybe top ten for the next five years after that. Yes, I realistically think he can be that good still. The thing with LeBron is he can play power forward and still create problems at the age of 36. He's an amazing passer and that's one thing you never lose. IDC what Nash can't do but I know right now, he'd still be one of the best passers. So I can see him still being a 20/8/8 player in the PF position if it came down to it. Of course, like any player, it has to be under the right circumstance. Realistically, as I mentioned before, LeBron can be:

#1 in playoff points AND steals.
#2 in playoff assists
#5 in playoff rebounds.

That's simply amazing.

He can also break the all-time record in points for a regular season.

That's even more amazing. How many players will ever have that opportunity? KD is probably the only guy capable of doing it other than LeBron and who knows how he will be in ten years? We know he has injury concerns while LeBron has been Iron Man his entire career.

Regular season MVP's I think are out of the question.
DPOY is gone even though I think he got snubbed by Marc Gasol.
I can see him winning one or two more rings. Any more than that and I'd be shocked.

Even if he ends his career now, he's top 7. If he ends it in five years and breaks all those records I mentioned, it's hard to deny him a top five spot. With or without rings, he's already cemented himself as a top ten and I don't think anyone can deny that at this point.

One thing is for sure, he's definately an iron man. He's avoided injury 100%. A testament to his physical preparation and training. He takes excellent care of his body and its in top shape even after all the mins he's played. Crazy how durable he's been, not even a sprain iirc.

KnicksorBust
06-02-2016, 07:44 AM
Realistically, I can't put Magic ahead of those guys.

1) He never carried the load that those players did or had to do.
2) I'll go as far and say KAJ was probably their best player in some of those Showtime seasons.
3) He had a rather short career.
4) His teams were always stacked. Scott+Worthy+Magic running the offense with KAJ at your center easily outmatched every team.

He's great for what he's done in terms of being the passer but I've never seen him have to do more than that.

Scott was good but never even made an all-star team... and Worthy is a great player no doubt but do you honestly believe for a second he would have been as good without Magic? There is no way a swingman with a shaky jumper could shoot 56% from the field unless he was getting transition baskets/layups being fed by the greatest PG in NBA History. Magic made that team what it was... You say Kareem was the best player but he only won 1 Finals MVP during their 5 championships while Magic won 3 FMVPs and 3 League MVPs. If the league was consistently recognizing Magic as the leader of the team and Kareem was in his mid/late 30s during those runs it's fair to say he was the best player.

There will always be people that have this bias against players that had help but the reality is that making 9 NBA Finals is proof enough that you maximized the talent around you. There has to be a level of success where people just shut up and admit the guy was a stud. Phil Jackson's coaching is the best example. Phil had MJ... Phil had Shaq/Kobe... Any coach would win championships with them. That's probably true. But Phil won ELEVEN rings. The spelling of eleven was necessary hear for emphasis. I honestly don't think there is a coach in NBA History that would have won all 11 of those titles even with MJ/Shaq/Kobe. That's why he's great.

Which takes us back to Magic... Yes he had Kareem/Worthy/Scott. But he also took those teams to 9 NBA Finals. He won 5 rings. He won 3 league MVPs. He won 3 FMVPs. How much more successful would he need to be for you to admit he's a top 5 player of all-time?


What lol... Because he has 2 mvps and a ring? He has had an amazing 4 years but its just been 4 years with the 3 before that not being anything even very good. If he gets injured tomorrow he never touches anyones top 50 List and would be forgotten in a few years because longevity matters.... ITS BEEN 4 YEARS and 2 of those 4 years have been top 3 player in the league worthy.... Saying he has accomplished more than 99 percent is just flat out wrong and ignorant.

Well let's see. There have been 3,071 NBA Players over the last 50 years. Only 13 have won 2 or more MVPs. So that's 3058/3071 = 99.6% Throw out all the players that never won championships, made all-star teams, made all-nba teams, never set nba records, never won 73 games, etc. I feel pretty good sticking at my Curry has accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History.


People really take for granted how insanely tough and lucky guys like Lebron/Kobe and so on down the list were for years being able to dodger or work through Injuries/breakdowns.... Curry will end up a top 20 player easily AS LONG AS HE CONTINUES TO DO THIS FOR 4 PLUS MORE SEASONS.... He doesnt need to be at the level he was this year but you need to be great for more than 2-4 seasons in this league.... Hell some people hold it against Magic because of him only having what 13 years?

I have LeBron and Kobe both as top 7 players in NBA History. How am I taking it for granted? I'm probably the highest on Kobe all-time on the whole PSD forum outside of Lakers fans. :laugh:


Kevin Durant has been a god for 8 of his 9 seasons... Like literally one of the best players in the game in 8 of his 9 seasons and he never has once been considering a top 30 player or even a top 50 player right now....


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Look at what this guy has done.... yet all we talk about is curry because of 2 great seasons... Its so disrespectful

I'm fine putting Durant top 50. He's probably top 35-40 but that would require a deeper look. Would you take Chris Paul's career over Steph Curry's?

IKnowHoops
06-02-2016, 03:52 PM
What lol... Because he has 2 mvps and a ring? He has had an amazing 4 years but its just been 4 years with the 3 before that not being anything even very good. If he gets injured tomorrow he never touches anyones top 50 List and would be forgotten in a few years because longevity matters.... ITS BEEN 4 YEARS and 2 of those 4 years have been top 3 player in the league worthy.... Saying he has accomplished more than 99 percent is just flat out wrong and ignorant.

People really take for granted how insanely tough and lucky guys like Lebron/Kobe and so on down the list were for years being able to dodger or work through Injuries/breakdowns.... Curry will end up a top 20 player easily AS LONG AS HE CONTINUES TO DO THIS FOR 4 PLUS MORE SEASONS.... He doesnt need to be at the level he was this year but you need to be great for more than 2-4 seasons in this league.... Hell some people hold it against Magic because of him only having what 13 years?

Kevin Durant has been a god for 8 of his 9 seasons... Like literally one of the best players in the game in 8 of his 9 seasons and he never has once been considering a top 30 player or even a top 50 player right now....


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Look at what this guy has done.... yet all we talk about is curry because of 2 great seasons... Its so disrespectful

Durant is in my top 30 easily!

As a matter of fact, my All time starting 5 is....

PG Lebron
SG Mike
SF Durant
PF Admiral
C Shaq

Jamiecballer
06-02-2016, 05:23 PM
Unless one plays incredibly great or incredibly poor what difference does it make

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 07:58 AM
Unless one plays incredibly great or incredibly poor what difference does it make

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

The interesting thing is I might have mocked this post if I read it yesterday but after Game 1 it's possible. LeBron played better but neither played incredibly great.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 07:58 AM
I still think 1 of them cements their status in this series. The stage is set for a grand performance.

valade16
06-03-2016, 09:25 AM
Scott was good but never even made an all-star team... and Worthy is a great player no doubt but do you honestly believe for a second he would have been as good without Magic? There is no way a swingman with a shaky jumper could shoot 56% from the field unless he was getting transition baskets/layups being fed by the greatest PG in NBA History. Magic made that team what it was... You say Kareem was the best player but he only won 1 Finals MVP during their 5 championships while Magic won 3 FMVPs and 3 League MVPs. If the league was consistently recognizing Magic as the leader of the team and Kareem was in his mid/late 30s during those runs it's fair to say he was the best player.

There will always be people that have this bias against players that had help but the reality is that making 9 NBA Finals is proof enough that you maximized the talent around you. There has to be a level of success where people just shut up and admit the guy was a stud. Phil Jackson's coaching is the best example. Phil had MJ... Phil had Shaq/Kobe... Any coach would win championships with them. That's probably true. But Phil won ELEVEN rings. The spelling of eleven was necessary hear for emphasis. I honestly don't think there is a coach in NBA History that would have won all 11 of those titles even with MJ/Shaq/Kobe. That's why he's great.

Which takes us back to Magic... Yes he had Kareem/Worthy/Scott. But he also took those teams to 9 NBA Finals. He won 5 rings. He won 3 league MVPs. He won 3 FMVPs. How much more successful would he need to be for you to admit he's a top 5 player of all-time?

Just curious but do you have Bill Russell as a Top 5 player of all-time? Because the arguments about why Magic belongs are the same arguments for why Bill Russell belongs.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 10:28 AM
Scott was good but never even made an all-star team... and Worthy is a great player no doubt but do you honestly believe for a second he would have been as good without Magic? There is no way a swingman with a shaky jumper could shoot 56% from the field unless he was getting transition baskets/layups being fed by the greatest PG in NBA History. Magic made that team what it was... You say Kareem was the best player but he only won 1 Finals MVP during their 5 championships while Magic won 3 FMVPs and 3 League MVPs. If the league was consistently recognizing Magic as the leader of the team and Kareem was in his mid/late 30s during those runs it's fair to say he was the best player.

There will always be people that have this bias against players that had help but the reality is that making 9 NBA Finals is proof enough that you maximized the talent around you. There has to be a level of success where people just shut up and admit the guy was a stud. Phil Jackson's coaching is the best example. Phil had MJ... Phil had Shaq/Kobe... Any coach would win championships with them. That's probably true. But Phil won ELEVEN rings. The spelling of eleven was necessary hear for emphasis. I honestly don't think there is a coach in NBA History that would have won all 11 of those titles even with MJ/Shaq/Kobe. That's why he's great.

Which takes us back to Magic... Yes he had Kareem/Worthy/Scott. But he also took those teams to 9 NBA Finals. He won 5 rings. He won 3 league MVPs. He won 3 FMVPs. How much more successful would he need to be for you to admit he's a top 5 player of all-time?

Just curious but do you have Bill Russell as a Top 5 player of all-time? Because the arguments about why Magic belongs are the same arguments for why Bill Russell belongs.

Probably the hardest player to rank all-time. I have him 6th. I want to give credit to him for all the championships but if you add some context...such as how he played in a league about 1/3 the size of the current nba and it is a tough balancing act.

valade16
06-03-2016, 10:48 AM
Probably the hardest player to rank all-time. I have him 6th. I want to give credit to him for all the championships but if you add some context...such as how he played in a league about 1/3 the size of the current nba and it is a tough balancing act.

I wasn't trying to criticize your methodology or catch you in a contradiction, Bill Russell is genuinely the toughest player to rank in an all-time list.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 11:59 AM
I wasn't trying to criticize your methodology or catch you in a contradiction, Bill Russell is genuinely the toughest player to rank in an all-time list.

Where do you rank LeBron / Curry / Russell on your all-time lists?

valade16
06-03-2016, 12:07 PM
Where do you rank LeBron / Curry / Russell on your all-time lists?

I honestly haven't thought about Curry on an all-time list, his ascension happened so fast I haven't been able to keep up lol.

I have LeBron top 5 (I value peak over longevity personally). I have Russell in my top 10 but I rank him differently virtually any time I do the list.

My brother swears up and down by Russell though.

I think if Curry wins the title and possibly Finals MVP his case for Top 25 is pretty good honestly. The only thing lacking would be longevity so he might be below that, but in terms of peak play he is way up there. And how many PGs have won an MVP and a title? The only ones I can think of are Magic, Big O and Cousy. That's pretty rare company.

Jamiecballer
06-03-2016, 12:23 PM
He's accomplished more in 7 years than 99.9% of players in NBA History. Of course he has business being put on all-time lists.

i imagine what he meant was that it would be stupid to try and guess where he belongs with so much of his career left to be played.

Scoots
06-03-2016, 02:19 PM
Durant is in my top 30 easily!

As a matter of fact, my All time starting 5 is....

PG Lebron
SG Mike
SF Durant
PF Admiral
C Shaq

PG Glove
SG Mike
SF Larry
PF Duncan
C Hakeem

Chronz
06-03-2016, 02:29 PM
Probably the hardest player to rank all-time. I have him 6th. I want to give credit to him for all the championships but if you add some context...such as how he played in a league about 1/3 the size of the current nba and it is a tough balancing act.
Do you seriously count his rookie finals mvp as his? Kareem led that team all the way except for that final game and gutted through the win that set them up. The voters wanted him to win it but this was the beginning of the cable era so they were pressured into giving it to someone who was actually in the arena.

Monta is beast
06-03-2016, 02:29 PM
PG: IT
SG: MJ
SF: LeBron
PF: KG
C: SHAQ

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 02:31 PM
I honestly haven't thought about Curry on an all-time list, his ascension happened so fast I haven't been able to keep up lol.

I have LeBron top 5 (I value peak over longevity personally). I have Russell in my top 10 but I rank him differently virtually any time I do the list.

My brother swears up and down by Russell though.

I think if Curry wins the title and possibly Finals MVP his case for Top 25 is pretty good honestly. The only thing lacking would be longevity so he might be below that, but in terms of peak play he is way up there. And how many PGs have won an MVP and a title? The only ones I can think of are Magic, Big O and Cousy. That's pretty rare company.

So where would LeBron be with another title? If he's already top 5 then it's really going to push the limits of your GOAT list. MJ/KAJ/Bron for you???

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 02:35 PM
i imagine what he meant was that it would be stupid to try and guess where he belongs with so much of his career left to be played.

I have no problem with that but the reality is that if his career did end after this finals and we had to compare him to historic players, I wouldn't be swayed by Robert Parish's longevity but instead by Curry's peak. When the peak is so strong it can overcome a significant disadvantage in longevity. He wouldn't touch the top 10 or 15 because those players have both but his last 3 year stretch would give him a debate for top 15 all-time so to leave him out of the top 25 because he didn't have the prerequisite decade of being an all-star seems petty to me.

zn23
06-03-2016, 02:41 PM
It's not just about winning, you have to win the Finals MVP in the process.

If LeBron were to win with Cleveland and win another Finals MVP that would place him comfortably in the top 5 all time.

Curry will definitely need a Finals MVP this time around. He can't have another bench player winning the award and bailing him out night in and night out.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 02:42 PM
Do you seriously count his rookie finals mvp as his? Kareem led that team all the way except for that final game and gutted through the win that set them up. The voters wanted him to win it but this was the beginning of the cable era so they were pressured into giving it to someone who was actually in the arena.

My post was about Russell? What is your point exactly? I'm not really interested in debating the merits of a 1980 Finals MVP where one guy only played in 3 wins but even if I just concede that KAJ's performance in the other games made him the FMVP, do you believe that taints Magic's career and should have him out of the top 5? If not, I don't see the relevance of starting the debate. If so, I'd be curious to see how you rank the top 5.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 02:45 PM
It's not just about winning, you have to win the Finals MVP in the process.

If LeBron were to win with Cleveland and win another Finals MVP that would place him comfortably in the top 5 all time.

Curry will definitely need a Finals MVP this time around. He can't have another bench player winning the award and bailing him out night in and night out.

The problem with Curry's game and the Warriors depth is that Curry plays such an unselfish game that elevates his teammates so well. His secondary assists, constant motion, and attention he commands from the defense repeatedly produce great looks for his teammates and the Warriors have more players capable of capitalizing on those looks than the rest of the league. It's going to produce games like this where Steph's shot is off but he still impacts the game in such a hard to quantify way just be freeing up his teammates and forcing the opponent to game plan for defending him 25-30 feet from the basket with double teams and contests.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2016, 02:46 PM
I'll play:

PG - Magic
SG - MJ
SF - LeBron
PF - Duncan
C - KAJ

Chronz
06-03-2016, 03:19 PM
My post was about Russell? What is your point exactly? I'm not really interested in debating the merits of a 1980 Finals MVP where one guy only played in 3 wins but even if I just concede that KAJ's performance in the other games made him the FMVP, do you believe that taints Magic's career and should have him out of the top 5? If not, I don't see the relevance of starting the debate. If so, I'd be curious to see how you rank the top 5.
I didn't want to quote the long post, i figured you could deduce the topic. When you said the league was identifying Magic when the voters have already admitted they felt kaj was the mvp they just couldn't do it because of the tv pressure. Does that matter at all to your debate with dude?

joedaheights
06-03-2016, 05:07 PM
Right now, LeBron is a top ten player for me. I have him at #7.

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

With a win, he still stays at the same spot. He'll eventually get to top five when his career ends for me.

Curry is a tough one because he lacks longevity thus far but I'd say he would be just outside top 30. Any thoughts?

A few things…

a) Magic? Hello? Really?

b) Wilt is not a top 4 player and not better than Russell on any planet any of us will ever live on.

Here's the correct list, where you might be able to move a guy a couple spots, but not 5 spots…

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. O'neal
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Bryant
10. Chamberlain
11. Olajuwon
12. Thomas
12. Curry?

On that list, if you wanted to move say.. Magic and Russell into opposite spots, fine.. but if you want to tell me, "well, Magic is actually not in the top 7" not fine and not reasonable.

Now remember, there are two comparisons…

1) Talent.. who would you pick if you had a chance to draft these players without actually knowing what happened in their NBA career

BUT, since players don't always play to their talents, and because some players (Bird) play way above their physical talents, we should go by:

2) What actually HAPPENED

You can't look at what happened in the careers of Magic Johnson, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, have Wilt in your top 7 and not have Magic and Russell, while also maintaining the idea that you're reasonable.

Now, on to Curry and James:

Curry - The best player, but ask yourself, are they really winning because it's Curry+a star+1 super role player + 9 guys? The Warriors are not as closely tied to the individual efforts of Curry as the Bulls were to Jordan, Lakers were to O'neal, Heat were to Wade (06)… what you're seeing is a team with probably 3 future hall of famers (Thompson and Green), one of whom may go down as the second best player of this era (if you count James in the previous era with the Duncans and Bryants [Thompson]) in a league where other teams are lucky to have two hall of famers… ALL WHILE having a better bottom 9 than anyone in the league. This isn't "okay, take Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry and Kenny Smith and go win a ring."

So, after two championships, I'm not sure you rank Curry amongst the best with two rings (James, Bryant [two as unquestioned leader], Olajuwon, Wilt), but maybe better than Isiah Thomas. The players who legitimately have led a team to two rings is a small group. So to me, if you have the numbers, you're already better than Nowitzki, Malone, Ewing, Garnett, Barkley, Miller, Robertson.

The real questionable players you'd argue with Curry would be Walt Frazier, Dwyane Wade, John Havlicek.

Lebron James?

The magnitude of this win, because of how much Irving blows dog and how much Kevin Love fooled the league by playing the second coming of Elton Brand when Brand was on the Bulls.. in Minnesota, and correspondingly, how much Love is a huge fraud and buster (by the way, no fan of John Paxson the GM has ever thought Love was anything other than a living legend when he was in Minnesota)… would be huge.

This win would have to rank up there with Bird beating the Lakers in 84… Mostly because, do this…

Sub James with any player ever, including Jordan on the current Cavs

Sub Curry out with about 40 different players…

Tell me the Cavs don't still lose.

To me, if James was able to pull off the monumental upset, the list would read:

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. James
5a. Bird

joedaheights
06-03-2016, 06:33 PM
Lebron is already a top 5 player to most including myself.... Him winning would put him top 3 to me and maybe even top 2 of all time esp considering he would be beating one of the best teams ever in the process.

It all depends on how both play.

Are you talking talent or what they did? Because as a talent, you don't need longevity, it's just talent.

In terms of what he's done, you think it's better than enough of these guys to be top 5?

Jordan
Abdul-Jabbar
Magic
Russell
Lebron?

Nope.. try..

Bird
O'neal
Duncan

Lebron has not surpassed these three.. he just hasn't. I'm not sure that even this ring would put him PAST O'neal and Bird.

Is Lebron top 5 to you because you're just not that old? Because that's the only reason..

Monta is beast
06-03-2016, 08:09 PM
LeBron passed Bird a while ago..passed Duncan a while ago

joedaheights
06-03-2016, 10:24 PM
LeBron passed Bird a while ago..passed Duncan a while ago

Larry Bird has three rings in the toughest era in NBA history. Larry Bird does not have a black eye on his resume like the 2011 Finals.

I knew people who thought Dominique was a top 25 player ever in 1988... You're being that guy

kdspurman
06-03-2016, 10:33 PM
LeBron passed Bird a while ago..passed Duncan a while ago

Matter of opinion. I've seen many lists with Tim ahead of him, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Bird, I've seen a lot of people put LeBron ahead of, but not everyone. Most top 10s have the same players, with like 5-10 varying in order

joedaheights
06-03-2016, 11:05 PM
Matter of opinion. I've seen many lists with Tim ahead of him, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Bird, I've seen a lot of people put LeBron ahead of, but not everyone. Most top 10s have the same players, with like 5-10 varying in order

Nothing objective puts lebron ahead of bird. That's another way ... For anyone who puts him ahead of bird.. Of saying "I'm 15, I watch commercials"

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:01 AM
No Magic? :confused:

My current list:
#1.) MJ
#2.) KAJ
#3.) Magic
#4.) Duncan
#5.) Kobe
#6.) Russell
#7.) LeBron

With a championship I would say enters the top 5.

With a championship for Curry I would feel confident saying he's top 30 of all-time and need to double check my list that deep and do some HW before declaring him top 20/25.

I'd lower Kobe by quite a few spots- out of the top 10 altogether honestly, raise Russell and raise Lebron. I know Russell gets dinged for his offense but I've heard some people do some basic on-off analysis for Russell that was very favorable to him. Don't remember where I saw it. But that makes sense- I think he was probably a plus-minus star more than one of those box score stars. Doing all the little things that led to winning.

I'd move Lebron up, he's played on some really terrible Finals teams: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Likewise, Kobe has been on some underratedly good teams over his career. Even the 09-10 Lakers teams were strong supporting casts relative to a lot of other Finals teams. (from article above). Plus, his defense was really overrated for his career. Never made any of his teams better on defense (in the literal sense). Teams basically performed the same with and without him on the court defensively. Great offensive player though and has excellent longevity. But I tend to put a bit more stock into peak than longevity and Kobe's peak isn't as good as many of the top 10 guys. Kobe's brand of basketball was also painful to watch- hold the ball, iso and ball stop. Yuck. Thankfully, we're moving away from that.

I'm not entirely sure what to think of Wilt. Statistically he was amazing. But you certainly wonder if he was more a box score guy whose plus-minus metrics would've been bleh. But given what we have plus the fact that he did win a few rings and played much better D late in his career, I'd be comfortable putting him in the top 5-6.

Bird's gotta be up there too. Sub him in for Kobe. Much better team player and I'm going to guess a better defender too. Or at the very least, they're about the same.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:07 AM
At some point, though, to get above other players with great stats, you need to win. Sorry, that's just how it is. If LeBron wins, he should be applauded. If he doesn't win, he shouldn't be as applauded.

There's this thing called teammates that kinda matter. Lebron's played on some really bad Finals teams with some of the worst supporting casts that were only in the Finals because of Lebron: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Give that a read and hopefully take into account teammates when measuring a star player.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:23 AM
What lol... Because he has 2 mvps and a ring? He has had an amazing 4 years but its just been 4 years with the 3 before that not being anything even very good. If he gets injured tomorrow he never touches anyones top 50 List and would be forgotten in a few years because longevity matters.... ITS BEEN 4 YEARS and 2 of those 4 years have been top 3 player in the league worthy.... Saying he has accomplished more than 99 percent is just flat out wrong and ignorant.

People really take for granted how insanely tough and lucky guys like Lebron/Kobe and so on down the list were for years being able to dodger or work through Injuries/breakdowns.... Curry will end up a top 20 player easily AS LONG AS HE CONTINUES TO DO THIS FOR 4 PLUS MORE SEASONS.... He doesnt need to be at the level he was this year but you need to be great for more than 2-4 seasons in this league.... Hell some people hold it against Magic because of him only having what 13 years?

Kevin Durant has been a god for 8 of his 9 seasons... Like literally one of the best players in the game in 8 of his 9 seasons and he never has once been considering a top 30 player or even a top 50 player right now....


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Look at what this guy has done.... yet all we talk about is curry because of 2 great seasons... Its so disrespectful

To say he's not top 50 is ridiculous because you're completely devaluing his peak, which is better than a majority of players. Look at 3-year peak, how many guys actually have better 3-year peaks? It's way less than you think.

Also do you actually realize how many people even have 2 MVPs? Compile Curry's accomplishments and I challenge you to name 50 guys who've accomplished more in the league. Yes longevity matters but so does peak. You can't just ignore the peak.

He'd be forgotten if he retired tomorrow? Now THAT is ignorance. The dude's the leading jersey seller, leading sneaker seller, has won 2 MVPs in a row, led a team to 73 wins (a record and records usually aren't forgotten), changed the way people view the game and what's possible and what's not (before Curry came along, no one was thinking of taking 30 foot shots and making them). To say all of that would be forgotten if he retired tomorrow is actual ignorance.

I bet if you actually looked at some stats, compared accomplishments, etc. and actually tried ranking 50 players better than Curry, you'd have a much harder time than you think (unless you totally devalued his peak). As it is, there's very few players who actually reach "best player in the league status" which Curry has accomplished over the last 2 years. Over history, there's maybe 20-25 guys who reach that level. And you're telling me 50 guys are better than Curry?

As for KD, I 100% agree. He's criminally underrated in rankings. He should easily be top 50 and honestly much higher than that. His peak is awesome, way better than most. There's probably only 10-15 guys with better peaks if you're going by stats.

BTW, I'd suggest reading this: http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14667140/ranking-michael-jordan-lebron-james-40-greatest-players-all-nba

It's a statistical view of ranking players. LBJ's actually #3 in it, KD's in the 20s. Curry not in it yet but the writer mentioned after the season he's probably check in around 30ish iirc.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:31 AM
Just curious but do you have Bill Russell as a Top 5 player of all-time? Because the arguments about why Magic belongs are the same arguments for why Bill Russell belongs.

Russell and Magic both made guys better. Unfortunately, we don't have any plus-minus stats for these guys but I feel very confident these guys would be like your top leaders in all the advanced plus-minus metrics that rule the stats community these days. In fact, I think I showed you that one (90s RAPM) that had Magic very high for the 90s players. There's nothing for Russell but someone put together something about how his teams got much better with him vs. without him. Don't remember where I saw it but it was basically a plus-minus analysis of Russell.

Anyways, I do tend to agree with your premise. Magic was much better statistically tho- especially on offense.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:53 AM
It's not just about winning, you have to win the Finals MVP in the process.

If LeBron were to win with Cleveland and win another Finals MVP that would place him comfortably in the top 5 all time.

Curry will definitely need a Finals MVP this time around. He can't have another bench player winning the award and bailing him out night in and night out.


The problem with Curry's game and the Warriors depth is that Curry plays such an unselfish game that elevates his teammates so well. His secondary assists, constant motion, and attention he commands from the defense repeatedly produce great looks for his teammates and the Warriors have more players capable of capitalizing on those looks than the rest of the league. It's going to produce games like this where Steph's shot is off but he still impacts the game in such a hard to quantify way just be freeing up his teammates and forcing the opponent to game plan for defending him 25-30 feet from the basket with double teams and contests.

KoB's exactly right. There's plays where Curry doesn't touch the ball where the Warriors get wide open looks entirely because of Curry.

Here's a great example: https://twitter.com/RobMahoney/status/738771130748522497

Now this play is actually Klay doing it but Steph draws the defense the same way too. The entire Cleveland team is so worried about Klay shooting a 3 that there's 4 guys following him while that opens up an easy shot for GS.

Now obviously that play is bad defense. BUT that play is also an example of the threat of both Steph and Klay. Defenses are so scared to let either of them get off a 3 that they follow them around and lose track of GS's other players which can lead to easy dunks. Klay gets nothing in the box score on that play. But he created that opportunity for GS by simply being on the court.

Here's a great article on how the Warriors use teams fear of Steph shooting 3s to get easy open looks: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14110312/how-golden-state-warriors-use-fear-stephen-curry-weapon

I'm not sure if there's any single player whose bent the defense to the degree Steph does. Obviously great players draw double teams but Steph does it when he's off the ball, which is very different. And because a 3 can be a back breaking play for the defense (3 is greater than 2 after all), it induces even more panic because Steph's 3s can literally turn around a game in 2-3 minutes. It's a different type of domination where he sometimes doesn't even need to touch the ball to make his impact felt. Most other greats need to have the ball in their hands.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-04-2016, 01:58 AM
. double post

HandsOnTheWheel
06-04-2016, 04:12 AM
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Lebron/Bird
5. Shaq

Russell is not top 5. His 11 championships are worthless and he was mediocre at best.

KnicksorBust
06-04-2016, 09:14 AM
It's not just about winning, you have to win the Finals MVP in the process.

If LeBron were to win with Cleveland and win another Finals MVP that would place him comfortably in the top 5 all time.

Curry will definitely need a Finals MVP this time around. He can't have another bench player winning the award and bailing him out night in and night out.


The problem with Curry's game and the Warriors depth is that Curry plays such an unselfish game that elevates his teammates so well. His secondary assists, constant motion, and attention he commands from the defense repeatedly produce great looks for his teammates and the Warriors have more players capable of capitalizing on those looks than the rest of the league. It's going to produce games like this where Steph's shot is off but he still impacts the game in such a hard to quantify way just be freeing up his teammates and forcing the opponent to game plan for defending him 25-30 feet from the basket with double teams and contests.

KoB's exactly right. There's plays where Curry doesn't touch the ball where the Warriors get wide open looks entirely because of Curry.

Here's a great example: https://twitter.com/RobMahoney/status/738771130748522497

Now this play is actually Klay doing it but Steph draws the defense the same way too. The entire Cleveland team is so worried about Klay shooting a 3 that there's 4 guys following him while that opens up an easy shot for GS.

Now obviously that play is bad defense. BUT that play is also an example of the threat of both Steph and Klay. Defenses are so scared to let either of them get off a 3 that they follow them around and lose track of GS's other players which can lead to easy dunks. Klay gets nothing in the box score on that play. But he created that opportunity for GS by simply being on the court.

Here's a great article on how the Warriors use teams fear of Steph shooting 3s to get easy open looks: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14110312/how-golden-state-warriors-use-fear-stephen-curry-weapon

I'm not sure if there's any single player whose bent the defense to the degree Steph does. Obviously great players draw double teams but Steph does it when he's off the ball, which is very different. And because a 3 can be a back breaking play for the defense (3 is greater than 2 after all), it induces even more panic because Steph's 3s can literally turn around a game in 2-3 minutes. It's a different type of domination where he sometimes doesn't even need to touch the ball to make his impact felt. Most other greats need to have the ball in their hands.

I actually have a play saved on my phone from last year's finals where Iguodala has the ball on a fast break and Lebron is guarding him. Curry sprints to the ballside corner for a potential 3 and even though Curry has a defender with him LeBron leaves Iggy, who... keep in mind ... still has the ball, to go double Curry in the corner. Iguodala sees Lebron leave him and just drives right in for the layup. Amazing.

D-Leethal
06-04-2016, 10:11 AM
KoB's exactly right. There's plays where Curry doesn't touch the ball where the Warriors get wide open looks entirely because of Curry.

Here's a great example: https://twitter.com/RobMahoney/status/738771130748522497

Now this play is actually Klay doing it but Steph draws the defense the same way too. The entire Cleveland team is so worried about Klay shooting a 3 that there's 4 guys following him while that opens up an easy shot for GS.

Now obviously that play is bad defense. BUT that play is also an example of the threat of both Steph and Klay. Defenses are so scared to let either of them get off a 3 that they follow them around and lose track of GS's other players which can lead to easy dunks. Klay gets nothing in the box score on that play. But he created that opportunity for GS by simply being on the court.

Here's a great article on how the Warriors use teams fear of Steph shooting 3s to get easy open looks: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14110312/how-golden-state-warriors-use-fear-stephen-curry-weapon

I'm not sure if there's any single player whose bent the defense to the degree Steph does. Obviously great players draw double teams but Steph does it when he's off the ball, which is very different. And because a 3 can be a back breaking play for the defense (3 is greater than 2 after all), it induces even more panic because Steph's 3s can literally turn around a game in 2-3 minutes. It's a different type of domination where he sometimes doesn't even need to touch the ball to make his impact felt. Most other greats need to have the ball in their hands.

Even in that play, Kyrie would normally help guide Ezeli to the next defender rotating down low (that didn't rotate in this particular play) but felt he needed to glue to Curry 25 feet from the hoop without the ball so Ezeli had nobody anywhere near him as a result.