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papipapsmanny
05-30-2016, 07:36 PM
Well, May is coming to an end and it is usually around this time when we start to see some rumors circulating that will last for the next two months.

I think most of us agree that if we are to make any moves it will be for a two type SP or perhaps a bullpen piece.... really not much else I can think of.

The SP market seems quite thin. Even with struggles and injury I hope DD is heavily inquiring about Sonny Gray.

One of Kelly/Buchholz, Devers, Owens, Johnson is a good starting point. Maybe throw in one of Chavis/Kopech.


That idea is not creative at all. If you got one discuss here, this should be an interesting year for trades.........

Bo Sox Fan
05-30-2016, 09:17 PM
Kimbrel is the only guarantee in next years bullpen with Koji & Taz hitting free agency and Carson Smith on the shelf rehabbing from TJ surgery.

I'd be looking hard at Oakland to land LRP Sean Doolittle as insurance for this season and a staple in the setup role through 2018. (His contract has team options for '19 & '20 as well)

Ontop of that, pluck Rich Hill away to come fill the 2013 John Lackey role that this team is missing. You might have to use Kelly and his years of control to start negotiations but do what you gotta do.

Those are my 2 trade targets that will likely save us from dealing any of Moncada, Benintendi or Espinoza.

Mamba42
05-30-2016, 09:39 PM
I imagine the Sox will be looking at Julio Teheran as well. The price would be really high though so I'm not sure the Sox would pay it.

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celticsman2009
05-31-2016, 09:35 AM
I'd look to move Clay, Kelly, Swihart, Devers, Chavis for a SP and BP pieces. Holt and Young can man LF until Benintendi is ready. After struggling heavily in AA, he's starting to hit again.

Green_Monster
05-31-2016, 10:38 AM
I'd like to see what we have in Rodriguez and Kelly before making any moves. If Rodriguez can be a solid #3 with #2 upside, and Kelly pitches like a #4, I think we'd be fine. Of course, if the right deal comes along, you go for it.

I think Wright has more than proven that he's not going to go back to being a depth starter. The movement on his knuckleball has been ridiculous and he's fooling hitters. His emergence has been huge for this team.

Soxfan85
05-31-2016, 03:28 PM
Relief pitcher that Boston CBS local posted be interested on the asking price

Fernando Salas 18K's through 19.2 innings. If the price isn't high I would go after him and put him where Smith would have been

win red sox
05-31-2016, 07:12 PM
Will Smith is should be joining the brewers pretty soon, if he appears healthy he should be a target(he had monster year last year).

Arodys Vizcaino would be ideal, don't know if he would available.

Not really interested in acquiring a sp, the one that seems talked about the most is rich hill and i don't see him pitching 200 innings.

My untouchables are Devers(best hit tool and power in the system, and defense is coming along faster than i thought), Moncada(Cano with speed), and Espinoza(special).

Bo Sox Fan
05-31-2016, 07:55 PM
I'd love to have our own 3 headed monster down in the pen.

Kimbrel RH
Doolittle LH
Smith RH

Around this time next year.

Soxfan85
05-31-2016, 08:06 PM
I'd love to have our own 3 headed monster down in the pen.

Kimbrel RH
Doolittle LH
Smith RH

Around this time next year.

I wouldn't mind that but with him signing at $10.5MM in '14 the asking price will be high on him. Would be a high end prospect. And will be most likely one of our untouchable ones.

Mamba42
06-01-2016, 09:12 AM
Will Smith is should be joining the brewers pretty soon, if he appears healthy he should be a target(he had monster year last year).

Arodys Vizcaino would be ideal, don't know if he would available.

Not really interested in acquiring a sp, the one that seems talked about the most is rich hill and i don't see him pitching 200 innings.

My untouchables are Devers(best hit tool and power in the system, and defense is coming along faster than i thought), Moncada(Cano with speed), and Espinoza(special).

Vizcaino seems to be attainable. From what I read, the Braves want MLB ready players now, though, so I'm unsure what kind of deal could be struck for him or Teheran or both. Some were floating the idea of Mookie Betts for Teheran but that is ridiculous. No way the Sox do that.

celticsman2009
06-01-2016, 04:15 PM
What's going on with Brian Matusz?

celticsman2009
06-01-2016, 04:29 PM
I'd say hold off on making trades for a starter this year, just because I don't want to blow prospects to try and compete this year. But all of the upcoming free agent pitchers suck. If I blow prospects, I'm trading for Jose Fernandez.

Swihart, Devers, Sam Travis, Clay, Kelly That still probably doesn't get it done.

MG956
06-01-2016, 06:05 PM
You guys are all focusing on what we can buy but we are doing fine and you should be looking at what we can sell.

Look at every team and see who is desperate for what. We are in a sellers market this year.

Bo Sox Fan
06-01-2016, 06:57 PM
Wait until the draft passes here in about 10 days, then you'll see Dombrowski's wheels turning with opportunity.

It's no secret this team needs another top end starter for when the offence eventually cools down, along with another reliever as insurance for Koji who seems ready to fall off a cliff at any moment but is grinding his way through and, oh, Carson Smith.

As for Fernandez, I'd go as far as to offering Moncada, Espinoza, Devers & a meh throw in who's Latino further down in the system. Moncada looks good in the minors but Cubans at the major league level seem to be busts just as equal to working out. Miami wouldn't take that deal anyways.

Soxfan85
06-01-2016, 08:18 PM
Moncada and Espinoza are are my untouchable with any pitcher.

j-bay
06-01-2016, 10:26 PM
At this point we need a decent starter and a good reliever.

Soxfan85
06-01-2016, 10:50 PM
At this point we need a decent starter and a good reliever.

+1. Most of these members want players that's going to cost us our top prospect. I think DD can get a decent starter and reliever without giving up a top prospects like Moncada and Espinoza

Oakmont_4
06-02-2016, 10:10 AM
We definitely need a true #2 SP. Buch and Kelly are awful. So inconsistent. I think Kelly should go to the BP after a short minor league stint.

Porcello-E-Rod-Wright is a solid end of rotation group. Price can hold down the #1. Really just need that #2 for when the playoffs role around, or we won't be going too far. I love the offense right now, but they won't be putting up 6 runs a game come playoff time.

Buch...He's useless to this team. Has been for a long time. He needs a fresh start, we don't need him.

BoSox47
06-02-2016, 02:26 PM
If you bring in a true number 2 starting pitcher, if we are lucky they will only ask for Swihart and Devers, but asking price could be Benintendi or Moncada.

I would go after Quintana if possible.

celticsman2009
06-02-2016, 06:11 PM
What is Cliff Lee doing these days, or did he have surgery on his shoulder?

papipapsmanny
06-02-2016, 06:17 PM
Only problem is right now most the teams with SP are all still in the their respective races. Oakland will be a seller but I would be very against making a move for Rich Hill. Really no track record of current success, 36 years old... not who you want to be trading a high end spec or two for.

Im still interested in Sonny Gray but Beane probably wants him to be having a good season before trading him.

I'd still be willing to trade Swihart, Devers, Owens and someone like Marrero for him.

byan04
06-02-2016, 07:40 PM
Only problem is right now most the teams with SP are all still in the their respective races. Oakland will be a seller but I would be very against making a move for Rich Hill. Really no track record of current success, 36 years old... not who you want to be trading a high end spec or two for.
Im still interested in Sonny Gray but Beane probably wants him to be having a good season before trading him.

I'd still be willing to trade Swihart, Devers, Owens and someone like Marrero for him.


i would love sonny gray im sure he wont demand much.. but he needs to be healthy ..in order to trade for him ..i was also looking at tyson ross. when he comes back,.. i think they were looking at him...Teheran young serviceable.. good pitcher on a bad team ..i wonder who else.. maybe someone like jeff locke..or something ..as of right now i dont really see much for starters.. let alone number 2 starters behind price/porcello/Wright

j-bay
06-02-2016, 09:35 PM
The pen needs some major help. If we want to go to the playoffs this year we need a decent starter, a setup guy, and another reliever. I would have to say 25 percent of our losses have been on Koji and Tazawa. Koji looks done and Tazawa looks spent. I feel bad for Kimbrel because some of his bad games have to do with having to save Koji's and Tazawa's ***

Soxfan85
06-02-2016, 10:09 PM
Just glanced at Pawtucket and doesn't seem any better for relief. Pat Light? But that's just 1 guy need more than that.

RedSoxtober
06-03-2016, 04:55 PM
I think that a legit 8th inning reliever changes the BP dramatically. Even while he had only 3 appearances, Smith had a pronounced impact on the BP by reshuffling the combinations that teams had to prepare for and relieving pressure on Koji/Taz. Hard to see someone in the system right now who could fill that role though... unless Workman comes back in his 2013 form.

j-bay
06-03-2016, 09:36 PM
Yep.. hurry up DD. Koji and Tazawa are allowing Bombs.

Station 13
06-03-2016, 11:48 PM
Yep.. hurry up DD. Koji and Tazawa are allowing Bombs.


Koji look cooked. I would demote him to the 7th. Keep Tazawa in the 8th, and stop warming him up so often. He said it last night it has negatively affected him being warm up so frequently.

papipapsmanny
06-04-2016, 01:31 PM
Honestly Koji's and Tazawa's peripherals still look very good. Only thing I see affecting each of them this year is their walk rates. In terms of stuff they haven't lost anything.

Losing Smith made a great bullpen merely good. Moving Kelly in there for one innings appearances is the most natural and logical solution but we refuse to do it.

Going after relievers in the trade market is almost always bad for the team getting the reliever.

We traded Miller for E-Rod.... you don't think the O's heavily regret that now?



Yeah but you cant predict the future. We don't why the O's did that. Panic? I dunno. But glad it worked in our favor

byan04
06-04-2016, 08:14 PM
Honestly Koji's and Tazawa's peripherals still look very good. Only thing I see affecting each of them this year is their walk rates. In terms of stuff they haven't lost anything.

Losing Smith made a great bullpen merely good. Moving Kelly in there for one innings appearances is the most natural and logical solution but we refuse to do it.

Going after relievers in the trade market is almost always bad for the team getting the reliever.

We traded Miller for E-Rod.... you don't think the O's heavily regret that now?



Yeah but you cant predict the future. We don't why the O's did that. Panic? I dunno. But glad it worked in our favor


leon and castillo were pulled from AAA Pawtucket lineup tonight .. i wonder if a trade is being made as we speak..?

j-bay
06-05-2016, 01:33 AM
leon and castillo were pulled from AAA Pawtucket lineup tonight .. i wonder if a trade is being made as we speak..?

Nope. For the Swihart and Hanigan injuries

Green_Monster
06-05-2016, 09:07 AM
Nope. For the Swihart and Hanigan injuries

This is almost certainly correct. Hopefully neither injury is serious, especially Swihart's. I was beginning to enjoy watching him play.

celticsman2009
06-06-2016, 09:48 AM
I was against this team trading prospects for pitching, but at this point, I'm on board.

Give me Jose Fernandez and AJ Ramos.

Swihart, Sam Travis, Devers, Kopech and Buchholz

RedSoxtober
06-06-2016, 10:23 AM
Over the offseason I suggested that the Mets would/should consider dealing from their pitching surplus in order to bolster the offense that sputtered most of 2015 before surging into the playoffs thanks to some late season trades and performance updates. I pointed out the cost of keeping the WS team together and the rising price tags of guys like Harvey. A Mets fan ripped me for the idea, countering that Cespedes in particular added just a little to a group that was already starting to click and the new ad/attendance revenue bound to drive spending. Well, their payroll rose (thanks in part to $27.5M to Cespedes) and they found a nice replacement for playoff cult hero Daniel Murpy... but their offense now ranks 3rd from the bottom in MLB and they've actually UNDER performed 2015 (http://nypost.com/2016/06/05/why-mets-are-in-danger-if-they-dont-already-have-offense-cures/).

With that in mind, I will repeat my offseason suggestion: the Sox should target one of the young Mets arms in exchange for short and long term offense. Sadly, Swihart is one of the pieces that I would have considered in that deal but he's likely off the boards now.

Green_Monster
06-06-2016, 12:55 PM
I was against this team trading prospects for pitching, but at this point, I'm on board.

Give me Jose Fernandez and AJ Ramos.

Swihart, Sam Travis, Devers, Kopech and Buchholz

Sadly, it will cost a good amount more than that. Say goodbye to at least one of Moncada, Espinoza, and Benintendi. Then those guys you mentioned would be secondary level pieces.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-07-2016, 07:58 AM
I imagine the Sox will be looking at Julio Teheran as well. The price would be really high though so I'm not sure the Sox would pay it.

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Completely bland and mediocre and from what Atlanta is telling people they're looking for a Miller comparable trade, good luck with that ********. His ceiling might be Estrada (if he can improve). I don't believe in him for one moment. We definitely need to improve our rotation. If we are to do any damage this post season (if we make it). Even Price hasn't clicked into gear yet. It's time to get rid of Clay, like I've been clamoring for for the past 3 seasons. Cautionary tale of holding onto an asset until it stagnates. Kelly is a reliever and needs to get his head out of his *** thinking he's anything more. While I'm reluctant to move one of the big 3 prospects, Devers would be the easiest to stomach. Trading him for something that can upgrade for the next 3 seasons and beyond is the key to moving him for me. We also need to figure out if Rusney can do anything ....literally anything or to improve that area. I am wondering if/when Holland is closer to being ready if he could be an answer to the pen.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-07-2016, 08:08 AM
At this point I'd be looking at Sonny Gray hard and heavy. I won't do Moncada, Benintendi or Espinoza, but anyone else is up for grabs potentially. Beane is all about lottery tickets, so Devers, Chris Acosta, Henry Owens, Sam Travis and Luis Alejandro Basabe....probably too light on the higher end talent, but Beane did basically take Barreto for Donaldson. (As Sean Nolin was already claimed on waivers by Milwaukee and subsequently is scheduled for TJ.)

Bo Sox Fan
06-07-2016, 09:00 AM
Even a change of depth in the 3-5 spots of the rotation would be nice. Like flipping a couple meh prospects to Philly for Helickson. Just something to shake it up a bit.

Grab a #2 at the deadline, Sonny Gray fits the need.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-07-2016, 09:33 AM
Even a change of depth in the 3-5 spots of the rotation would be nice. Like flipping a couple meh prospects to Philly for Helickson. Just something to shake it up a bit.

Grab a #2 at the deadline, Sonny Gray fits the need.

Hellickson would be a decent idea for the 4 spot. It can push E-Rod back to the minors to get himself into second half shape in AAA. He's still dealing with soreness in his knee and doesn't have the bite on his slider or velo back.

cocossox
06-07-2016, 05:18 PM
I like Hellickson, when he was with TB he went deep into the game a lot for them, that's what we need.

cocossox
06-07-2016, 05:25 PM
The pen needs some major help. If we want to go to the playoffs this year we need a decent starter, a setup guy, and another reliever. I would have to say 25 percent of our losses have been on Koji and Tazawa. Koji looks done and Tazawa looks spent. I feel bad for Kimbrel because some of his bad games have to do with having to save Koji's and Tazawa's *** Carson Smith being injured just killed us so far, don't know any names out there worth while that won't cost way too much tho.

RedSoxtober
06-09-2016, 03:46 PM
Rich Hill, the player most consider the top starting pitching trade target, has been sidelined once again thanks to an injured groin. Hill had been recuperating, but experienced discomfort on the 33rd of what was supposed to be a 35-pitch bullpen session.

Hill was scheduled to undergo an MRI, with the A’s announcing Thursday that he was placed on the disabled list.weei.com

BoSox47
06-12-2016, 01:00 AM
At this point I'd be looking at Sonny Gray hard and heavy. I won't do Moncada, Benintendi or Espinoza, but anyone else is up for grabs potentially. Beane is all about lottery tickets, so Devers, Chris Acosta, Henry Owens, Sam Travis and Luis Alejandro Basabe....probably too light on the higher end talent, but Beane did basically take Barreto for Donaldson. (As Sean Nolin was already claimed on waivers by Milwaukee and subsequently is scheduled for TJ.)

Sonny doesnt come here if one of those 3 players isnt involved.

MiamiBoy77
06-12-2016, 11:51 AM
I was against this team trading prospects for pitching, but at this point, I'm on board.

Give me Jose Fernandez and AJ Ramos.

Swihart, Sam Travis, Devers, Kopech and Buchholz

You don't want AJ Ramos

Bo Sox Fan
06-15-2016, 08:36 PM
The Boston Red Sox acquire:
SP Sonny Gray
RP Sean Doolittle

In exchange from Oakland for:
3B Rafael Devers
OF Andrew Benintendi
SP Anderson Espinoza
SP Joe Kelly

R Gray
L Price
R Wright
L Rodriguez
R Porcello

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Uehara...


The division is over. Just do it. (Nike)

papipapsmanny
06-15-2016, 09:25 PM
That is a terrible trade. Plus Beane rarely ever trades for the obvious guys, he likes quantity as well, what you did was give him quantity and quality. Yeah he would say yes to that trade and just laugh at us the rest of his life.

Devers, Swihart, Kopech, Chavis, and one of Owens/Johnson for Gray. I could see Beane going after that. We get Gray... and we give up a lot. Beane would probably ask for a guy like Dubon as well

Bo Sox Fan
06-15-2016, 09:45 PM
That is a terrible trade. Plus Beane rarely ever trades for the obvious guys, he likes quantity as well, what you did was give him quantity and quality. Yeah he would say yes to that trade and just laugh at us the rest of his life.

Devers, Swihart, Kopech, Chavis, and one of Owens/Johnson for Gray. I could see Beane going after that. We get Gray... and we give up a lot. Beane would probably ask for a guy like Dubon as well

I guess you would know more than me since you're in the A's office, lmao. Like you say, Beane would be all over Swihart (out for the season) Kopech (steroid/attitude issues) Johnson (depression/mental problems, not even pitching anymore) and Owens (overrated, expired prospect)

We'll just forget my proposal which is unrealistic and completely preposterous in your eyes. We'll go with yours, trading a bunch of used, rotten banana peels for a fresh ripe banana because that makes more sense for Beane and the A's.

j-bay
06-15-2016, 10:15 PM
I guess you would know more than me since you're in the A's office, lmao. Like you say, Beane would be all over Swihart (out for the season) Kopech (steroid/attitude issues) Johnson (depression/mental problems, not even pitching anymore) and Owens (overrated, expired prospect)

We'll just forget my proposal which is unrealistic and completely preposterous in your eyes. We'll go with yours, trading a bunch of used, rotten banana peels for a fresh ripe banana because that makes more sense for Beane and the A's.

I agree with papi's more. The Sox are likely to hold on tight to Moncada unless its a top of the line player. Sonny Gray right now does not fit that description. I'm sure his ears perk up with Devers. I dont think we need to add Espinoza.

Bo Sox Fan
06-15-2016, 10:34 PM
I agree with papi's more. The Sox are likely to hold on tight to Moncada unless its a top of the line player. Sonny Gray right now does not fit that description. I'm sure his ears perk up with Devers. I dont think we need to add Espinoza.

The difference between me and you two is that I don't live in a video game. If you really think Devers alone (along with a couple meh throw ins) will land you 3 controlled years of a bonafide young ace then you're eating way too many childrens Flinstone vitamins.

Look at both sides of the coin. Put Oakland in our shoes and vice versa, but let's say they needed a bat. Would you accept Oaklands top prospect (combined with a couple meh throw ins) in exchange for Mookie Betts? Absolutely ******* not, and the cost of bats are easier to come by these days than starting pitching. Class is dismissed kids.

RedSoxtober
06-15-2016, 10:40 PM
The Boston Red Sox acquire:
SP Sonny Gray
RP Sean Doolittle

In exchange from Oakland for:
3B Rafael Devers
OF Andrew Benintendi
SP Anderson Espinoza
SP Joe Kelly


Although it's a little tiresome (how many times have you proposed a trade for Gray/Doolittle?), I am more on board with the concept. The BP is going to lose Uehara and likely Tazawa after this year. Even beyond 2016, they also need something beyond Price, EdRo, and Porcello (I love what Wright is doing this year but knuckleballers don't typically repeat this kind of performance). Buchholz is gone, Owens can't keep his delivery together, Johnson is struggling with the hardest part of the game, ... There's long and short-term need so dealing some prospects makes sense.

Dealing Espinoza does not make sense though. It might be easier when/if Groome signs but it still doesn't make sense. I would search for alternatives (as mentioned earlier, Rionel Raudes would be a good start).

And you're dismissing Kopech much too quickly. He isn't the first HS draftee who had maturity issues (I actually believe his explanation of the PED issue). He, or a combination of him and Raudes, might be just the kind of thing that gets Beane going.

Personally I would rather deal Swihart than Benintendi as well. Beane won't make a deal like this because he cares about making the playoffs this year so Swihart's availability this season is unimportant. The only thing that really matters is control over Swihart and he will have at least 4 years of control and possibly five since Swihart has less than a season's accumulated service time.

Would you do Kopech, Raudes, Swihart, Devers, and Kelly? Maybe add Buch if he wants to take a flier on selling him next year a la Hill (it'll be an odd year after all)?

j-bay
06-15-2016, 10:58 PM
The difference between me and you two is that I don't live in a video game. If you really think Devers alone (along with a couple meh throw ins) will land you 3 controlled years of a bonafide young ace then you're eating way too many childrens Flinstone vitamins.

Look at both sides of the coin. Put Oakland in our shoes and vice versa, but let's say they needed a bat. Would you accept Oaklands top prospect (combined with a couple meh throw ins) in exchange for Mookie Betts? Absolutely ******* not, and the cost of bats are easier to come by these days than starting pitching. Class is dismissed kids.

Well i guess a trade for Sonny Gray ain't happening. If you read the reports, then you would know that Benintendi, along with Moncada, are highly valued by the Sox and will not be traded unless it is for a superstar.

Bo Sox Fan
06-15-2016, 11:19 PM
Would you do Kopech, Raudes, Swihart, Devers, and Kelly? Maybe add Buch if he wants to take a flier on selling him next year a la Hill (it'll be an odd year after all)?

Yes, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat with no denial. Moncada & Espinoza are the only two (higher end) prospects in our system that I see making a major impact at the big league level some day, thus in turn, leaving Benintendi and Devers as bait.

Use em' wisely now while they're fresh, popular and young, because eventually they run their course in the minors and we end up with nothing to show for it from either the players themselves, or the trade we never made when we had the chance to deal them.

win red sox
06-15-2016, 11:51 PM
from dave cameron's chat:

Thatguy: Who are your early favorites to land Lucroy at the deadline?

Dave Cameron: Boston and Texas make the most sense. I could see Houston getting involved if they start making a real run at division again.

win red sox
06-15-2016, 11:54 PM
Miami has some interesting pieces that would fit a need(Ichiro,Phelps,Prado) that shouldn't cost elite prospects.

Bo Sox Fan
06-16-2016, 07:37 AM
Danny Valencia would be a nice pick up from Oakland to platoon with Shaw at 3rd. Love the Martin Prado idea as well.

The Allen
06-16-2016, 11:27 AM
I know it wouldn't help us a whole ton, but I would love Ichiro in a Sox jersey.

celticsman2009
06-16-2016, 04:14 PM
I'll pass on Gray. He's having a terrible year and will still cost you a ton. No thanks. What might it take to get Archer? Probably unlikely because of the same division, but he'd be an interesting get.

cocossox
06-16-2016, 04:51 PM
Matt Latos released by CWS, I know his MPH has been down, He started the season 4-0 with a 0.74 ERA, Is he worth taking a flier on?

redsoxpride34
06-16-2016, 05:13 PM
If they feel like they know whats wrong with latos then maybe you take a chance on him. Ultimately I think they pass on him. In terms of sonny gray, I’m starting to think that unless the price is low, we should pass on him. I would say our #1 target should be jose fernandez. Go for the elite talent, dont settle for lesser players. Outside of him, chris archer would be my #2. Matt Harvey would be #3. And I guess 4 would be gray. I just think that in the end, it makes sense to pay a bit more and go for the best guy available. They guy you know will step in and dominate from day 1. Jose Fernandez is making a case for best right handed pitcher in the MLB. He’s young and under control for 2 more years. And the sox are in a position where they already have a good young team at the major league level and have an elite farm system. Even if it costs you say benintendi, swihart and espinoza/devers. They can afford to take that hit.

RedSoxtober
06-16-2016, 05:34 PM
^^ IMO suggesting that "they can afford to take that hit" is incredibly shortsighted. If all you want is to get a shot at the WS this year then sure. Personally, I'd rather have multiple chances over the next 5-7 years so I'm not ever going to see dealing two of your top 4 plus a potentially budding star as wise; you're mortgaging long range success.

Jose Fernandez isn't coming. Check Google to see what the asking price was for him at the Winter Meetings. You're not even close with what you've suggested above.

Archer is signed CHEAP through his age 32 season in 2020 (max is an $11M option for 2020). Please, please, please explain why the Rays would be interested in anything for him. Odorizzi? Maybe. Smyly? Probably. Archer? No way.

Harvey is an interesting case. He's having a pretty crappy season (because he's been very hittable and his k-rate is dropping for the third year in a row. He's also an egomaniacal whack job who was a big time headache for the Mets in the playoffs last year. If you could spin that into a reduced-rate acquisition then I'd be for it though I'd prefer to buy low on Wheeler who is probably making his first rehab soon.

papipapsmanny
06-16-2016, 06:27 PM
Going after Lucroy would be a waste as well. Honestly going after anyone for offensive upgrades is just unproductive at this point. Unless we feel we need a late inning defensive upgrade somewhere then I don't see the need to trade for a position player.

We need a good SP. A BP piece would be nice, but I feel that is more of a longer term need then for just this year so waiting until the offseason for that may be prudent.

You wonder if you could get real creative for a deal for Greinke

Sandoval, Buchholz, Castillo, Devers, Chavis and Owens for him..... I have no idea how bad they would want to get out of his contract since they are doing bad. They get some MLB pieces and a high end prospect. Again just a shot in the dark there

papipapsmanny
06-16-2016, 06:28 PM
The Wheeler idea is intriguing, but the Mets may be looking for MLB pieces only. Swihart would have been really nice here. Could have perhaps swindled Swihart one of Owens/Johnson and a lesser piece like Marco Hernandez for him

j-bay
06-16-2016, 06:30 PM
What the Sox need is a Lackey type guy. A work horse. Don't trade one of your top 4 unless you get a sure thing.

Green_Monster
06-16-2016, 06:49 PM
I read that Swihart is out of the cast and into a boot. I have no idea what the recovery time will be, but it seems like he could be back before the deadline?

Side note, how incredible was our 2011 draft? Betts, JBJ, Shaw, Swihart, Barnes, Owens, Ramirez.

redsoxpride34
06-16-2016, 07:04 PM
Interesting bit of info just popped up on twitter, apparently the padres gm said they are open to moving will myers. Myers is currently playing 1B but also can play LF. He’s in the midst of a really good year and is currently hitting .281 with 14 homers and 39 rbi along with 13 doubles, a .504 slugging % and an .825 ops. He won’t turn 26 until after this season is over. I think he could be a really good target given his age, production and positional flexibility. He plays 2 positions that we need going forward but could just play LF this year unless hanley gets injured. What do you guys think?

j-bay
06-16-2016, 07:52 PM
Interesting bit of info just popped up on twitter, apparently the padres gm said they are open to moving will myers. Myers is currently playing 1B but also can play LF. He’s in the midst of a really good year and is currently hitting .281 with 14 homers and 39 rbi along with 13 doubles, a .504 slugging % and an .825 ops. He won’t turn 26 until after this season is over. I think he could be a really good target given his age, production and positional flexibility. He plays 2 positions that we need going forward but could just play LF this year unless hanley gets injured. What do you guys think?

Maybe. Myers is not someone we need. He is someone who would be nice to have. And i'm sure they would ask for Devers.

Bo Sox Fan
06-16-2016, 08:24 PM
Edro looks nothing more than mediocre, and that's a stretch of the word.

Yah, no... This team desperately needs a TORP & an ace pen arm to replace what was supposed to be Carson Smith if there is gonna be any chance of competing for/in the playoffs.

Pitching, pitching & more pitching. The offence will be fine, even when it slows it will still be top 3 in the majors.

j-bay
06-16-2016, 09:09 PM
Edro looks nothing more than mediocre, and that's a stretch of the word.

Yah, no... This team desperately needs a TORP & an ace pen arm to replace what was supposed to be Carson Smith if there is gonna be any chance of competing for/in the playoffs.

Pitching, pitching & more pitching. The offence will be fine, even when it slows it will still be top 3 in the majors.

Yeah....no. What this team needs is a #3. A Doug Fister type move. Price looks like he is returning. He just needs more than 2 runs. Wright has become our #2. Agree with the good pen arm though.

Bo Sox Fan
06-16-2016, 09:30 PM
We can do a **** of a lot better than Doug Fister with the farm system we have and the goal of winning more World Series titles with this new core of youth.

Rick Porcello is our Douglas Fister. Aim for higher, younger talent than that muffin tosser.

j-bay
06-16-2016, 09:53 PM
We can do a **** of a lot better than Doug Fister with the farm system we have and the goal of winning more World Series titles with this new core of youth.

Rick Porcello is our Douglas Fister. Aim for higher, younger talent than that muffin tosser.

No i said Fister type move. Remember when DD acquired Fister from the M's and how well he did after. I'm talking about that type of guy.

We might want to look at Lucroy or an OFer. We need a hitter.

papipapsmanny
06-16-2016, 11:04 PM
I don't understand how anyone can remotely think that we need a hitter

j-bay
06-16-2016, 11:55 PM
Don't want to add another hitter. But as of late we either have really good games or really bad games.

redsoxpride34
06-17-2016, 02:36 AM
I honestly am not as sold on the offence as much as some of you guys are. We are getting next to nothing from 2 big offensive positions (1B and LF), our catcher couldn’t hit a beachball, shaw has seen his avg drop about .50 points, and our cleanup hitter is in his 40’s and has chronic health problems. Whose to say ortiz even makes it through this season? And keep in mind, if this team somehow manages to make the world series, they will have to go to NL parks. Does ortiz play 1B? Can he even play 1B at this point? I think DD needs to look for a bat in the form of a LF or catcher. Someone like Wil Myers would be ideal, lucroy could fit, who knows who else might be available. If the sox plan on being a legit ws contender, they need to add a starter, reliever and a bat. If I was DD, I would look to make a deal like he did years ago for miggy cabrera and dontrelle willis. Swing for the fences and go for the blockbuster. fill two needs with one trade. Don’t go for the doug fister type, thats what the sox have done in past years that lead to their continuous failure. Ben always tried to skimp on dealing prospects and settle for lesser lower impact players.

Bo Sox Fan
06-17-2016, 08:58 AM
Nolan Arenado would put a stamp on 3rd base and the offence as a whole if you just want to out score the opposition every night.

Devers
Benintendi
Kopech?

Lol

RedSoxtober
06-17-2016, 09:52 AM
I'm not really into the idea of getting a hitter, but the observation is not as bad as some are making it out to be. The Sox early success had a lot to do with a ridiculous BABIP. There was a lot of question as to whether or not that BABIP could be sustained (with the latest statgeek tool -- exit velocity -- being used to justify it). The doubters suggested that it would come back to earth and it has: .333 BABIP for the season has produced an overall .289/.354/.478 BUT the last two weeks have a more reasonable .290 BABIP with a corresponding .263/.326/.412 slash.

Bradley, Ortiz, and Shaw have notable home/road splits and the Sox' second half schedule features more road games, particularly for September. While Bradley and Ortiz still have respectable numbers for the road, the Sox clearly have a different offense away from home and are clearly susceptible to LHP.

I'm glad we don't have to fly across the country for another two game series with SFG (.197/.260/.296).

Bo Sox Fan
06-17-2016, 11:45 AM
I have a pretty strong feeling we will end up with Matt Harvey since he's pitching around fourth on their depth chart despite having ace stuff, and then there's the off field shenanigans.

A package built around one of Buchholz or Kelly to replace him today while they're competing, Devers, and one of Shaw or Chris Young to put a bat in their lineup as well.

We counter by swinging another deal to acquire a third baseman or left fielder to replace what we just lost if Brock Holt doesn't take the every day role at either position.

cocossox
06-17-2016, 06:41 PM
yeah I think we need a 3b platoon to take some pressure off Shaw or Shaw might be dealt in a trade if he was do u guys think Moncada will be called up to play 3rd?

papipapsmanny
06-17-2016, 07:33 PM
There is no reason to trade for a hitter... none. We lead the MLB in offense it is illogical, it would be a completely unproductive trade.

Its obvious that we need an SP, going after a hitter to join the number one offense does nothing for us.

Green_Monster
06-17-2016, 09:04 PM
yeah I think we need a 3b platoon to take some pressure off Shaw or Shaw might be dealt in a trade if he was do u guys think Moncada will be called up to play 3rd?

I don't believe Shaw needs to be platooned, and I highly doubt he gets dealt. He was struggling pretty bad recently, but these last couple games he's hitting everything hard. He fixed his hands which were too low in his stance.

If he did get traded, Moncada wouldn't get the call. It would probably be a platoon of Rutledge and Holt or they'd make a trade. Moncada is still only in high A-ball and needs some more time in the minors.

papipapsmanny
06-17-2016, 09:56 PM
Also in regards to position players... Holt is returning soon, Swihart looks like he will be back in August, and we have Rutledge (though he is out for 2-3 weeks) and Hernandez in AAA.

Unfortunately because how the standings are playing out our only match is Gray from the As

Again I think Swihart, Devers, Kelly, Chavis, and Kopech could get that done.

Price
Gray
Wright
Porcello
E-Rod/Wright (Honestly whichever one does better)

Gray has stuggled, but much of it seems to be more of a fluke. Velocity is the same, still has a high GB%. His HR/FB ratio is way out of whack and so are his walk rates.

I'm of the belief that are bullpen is quite alright for this year.

Soxfan85
06-17-2016, 10:15 PM
I agree we need a SP. We have 3 pitchers not doing well. I really think Kelly with that explosive arm belongs in the BP. Move Clay back to SP. E-Rod send him back to AAA. There were sports writers saying he was tipping his pitches. If he is JF and Willis spoke to him for 30 mins, I think he's aware of it or maybe not but still doing it. E-Rod saying his leg is fine. But the command is horrible. If we get a SP it would be a rental. I'm not giving up a farm for few months. It's sad that nobody in AAA is pitching great. I mean the SP today was doing great but have to realize is it's not ML ready IMO. We just cannot stand pat at the deadline because if we do we will probably make it to postseason but not make it to first round. We may even drop to WC. The hitting is fine. Leave it alone. It's the SP we need quality innings from these guys. So July deadline here is what I want to see

Looking at the MLB standings and seeing who might be sellers. IMO would be because how far back they are from 1st place.

1. Reds, 2. Philly, 3. Atlanta, 4. Padres. 5. Brewers, 6. Diamondbacks, 7. Oakland, 8, Angels, 9. Twins.

Bo Sox Fan
06-17-2016, 10:46 PM
I'm not giving up a farm for few months.

Here's where you're very wrong.

Why throw away this season when you have a cost controlled team on the position player side of things, literally 1 through 9 up and down your lineup not just now, but for the next 4-5 years?

Go get another TORP with years of control NOW because we only have "Price" is "Wright" to rely on, complemented by Porcello who's inconsistent at best, and then the 4 & 5 spots which have been a massive bust with endless names continuing to get recycled through and no one good enough to grab the ball and run with it.

There are 2 spots to be filled IMO because Buchholz, Kelly & Edro just can't get there **** together for one reason or another. Fire the pitching coach if you have to. Do something.

j-bay
06-17-2016, 10:54 PM
Here's where you're very wrong.

Why throw away this season when you have a cost controlled team on the position player side of things, literally 1 through 9 up and down your lineup not just now, but for the next 4-5 years?

Go get another TORP with years of control NOW because we only have "Price" is "Wright" to rely on, complemented by Porcello who's inconsistent at best, and then the 4 & 5 spots which have been a massive bust with endless names continuing to get recycled through and no one good enough to grab the ball and run with it.

There are 2 spots to be filled IMO because Buchholz, Kelly & Edro just can't get there **** together for one reason or another. Fire the pitching coach if you have to. Do something.

In this market i would only trade Devers. You would have to trade something special for me to give up one of the other 3.

byan04
06-18-2016, 10:35 AM
In this market i would only trade Devers. You would have to trade something special for me to give up one of the other 3.


i think devers would be the most logical trade bait ..
i saw that Oswaldo Arcia was designated for assignment the left handed LF'er we need to platoon with Chris Young and hes only 25 ..he has good power but struggled hitting left handed pitching so a perfect platoon partner imo ..being 25 he has some improvements to make and has some growth left ..plus the fact is that the Twins may regret doing so ..(Ortiz being released . ) Arcia might be second coming and the bat the Redsox need in their lineup

RedSoxtober
06-19-2016, 06:33 PM
There were sports writers saying he was tipping his pitches. If he is JF and Willis spoke to him for 30 mins, I think he's aware of it or maybe not but still doing it. E-Rod saying his leg is fine. But the command is horrible.
The Sox altered his delivery in order to relieve pressure on his knee -- a function of his lack of confidence in it. The prolonged meeting addressed him returning to his pre-2016 delivery. The differences may have quite a bit to do with his diminished finish and power.


Go get another TORP with years of control NOW because we only have "Price" is "Wright" to rely on, complemented by Porcello who's inconsistent at best, and then the 4 & 5 spots which have been a massive bust with endless names continuing to get recycled through and no one good enough to grab the ball and run with it.

There are 2 spots to be filled IMO because Buchholz, Kelly & Edro just can't get there **** together for one reason or another. Fire the pitching coach if you have to. Do something.

Two things I don't get here. First, how is Porcello inconsistent? He's gone at least 6 innings in all but two starts and given up 3ER or less in 11/14. Both of those numbers are better than Price (and no, I'm not suggesting he's better than Price) in 2016. (Go back to his return from the DL last year and it's 20/22 6+ IP and 17/22 3ER or less). He's remarkably consistent, but rarely dominant.

Second, "Fire the pitching coach if you have to. Do something." is just awful. Doing something just to do something? Ugh, to what end?

Soxfan85
06-19-2016, 08:49 PM
You can put this to bed

The Red Sox have inquired about high-end starting pitchers like the Marlins’ Jose Fernandez and the Pirates’ Gerrit Cole this season, but Boston has unsurprisingly balked at sending back shortstop Xander Bogaerts or right fielder Mookie Betts,

Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald

Soxtober040713
06-19-2016, 09:30 PM
I really hope this is just a negotiating tactic by Miami. That they start high hoping the Sox would include high end prospects in their counter offer. There is only 1 player I would empty the Farm for and that's Jose Fernandez with a new deal signed upon completion of the trade. Of 6 years with opt out after 4.

Miami Gets:

Eduardo Rodriguez
Blake Swihart
Yoan Moncada(1)
Rafael Devers(4)
Michael Kopech(6)
Roniel Raudes(23)

Boston Gets:

Jose Fernandez
Ichiro Suzuki
Martin Prado
Mike Dunn

It may seem like a lot to
Give up. But even with out the extension for Fernandez it gives us 2 yrs of Price-Fernandez 1-2. The other 3 guys are all FA at the end of this year and help the Sox with depth and platoons

C- Christian Vazquez
1B- Hanley Ramirez
2B- Dustin Pedroia
3B- Travis Shaw
SS- Xander Bogaerts
LF- Chris Young
CF- Jackie Bradley
RF- Mookie Betts
DH- David Ortiz

Bench:
C- Sandy Leon
OF- Ichiro Suzuki
INF- Martin Prado
UTL- Brock Holt

1. David Price
2. Jose Fernandez
3. Steven Wright
4. Rick Porcello
5. Clay Buchholz

RHP- Matt Barnes
LHP- Robbie Ross
RHP- Heath Hembree
LHP- Mike Dunn
RHP- Junichi Tazawa
SU- Koji Uehara
CL- Craig Kimbrel

Ichiro- can be 4th outfielder/ platoon with Young until Holt is ready

Prado- Platoon with Shaw at 3rd if his slump continues or just be a bat off the bench.

Holt- goes back to his best position which is super utility

Dunn- obviously an upgrade over Layne

Leon- I chose Leon over Hanigan strickly because of his relationship with Buchholz as long as that continues.

What do you guys think? Am
I living in a dream land? Do you think it's to much to give up? I would even think of including Trey Ball instead of Raudes to get it done. We need another staff like Pedro and Schilling if we want to be playing in late October. Who knows what prospects will be. Example- Swihart, Owens, Johnson, Castillo ect.

ruckus16969
06-19-2016, 10:02 PM
I really hope this is just a negotiating tactic by Miami. That they start high hoping the Sox would include high end prospects in their counter offer. There is only 1 player I would empty the Farm for and that's Jose Fernandez with a new deal signed upon completion of the trade. Of 6 years with opt out after 4.

Miami Gets:

Eduardo Rodriguez
Blake Swihart
Yoan Moncada(1)
Rafael Devers(4)
Michael Kopech(6)
Roniel Raudes(23)

Boston Gets:

Jose Fernandez
Ichiro Suzuki
Martin Prado
Mike Dunn

It may seem like a lot to
Give up. But even with out the extension for Fernandez it gives us 2 yrs of Price-Fernandez 1-2. The other 3 guys are all FA at the end of this year and help the Sox with depth and platoons

C- Christian Vazquez
1B- Hanley Ramirez
2B- Dustin Pedroia
3B- Travis Shaw
SS- Xander Bogaerts
LF- Chris Young
CF- Jackie Bradley
RF- Mookie Betts
DH- David Ortiz

Bench:
C- Sandy Leon
OF- Ichiro Suzuki
INF- Martin Prado
UTL- Brock Holt

1. David Price
2. Jose Fernandez
3. Steven Wright
4. Rick Porcello
5. Clay Buchholz

RHP- Matt Barnes
LHP- Robbie Ross
RHP- Heath Hembree
LHP- Mike Dunn
RHP- Junichi Tazawa
SU- Koji Uehara
CL- Craig Kimbrel

Ichiro- can be 4th outfielder/ platoon with Young until Holt is ready

Prado- Platoon with Shaw at 3rd if his slump continues or just be a bat off the bench.

Holt- goes back to his best position which is super utility

Dunn- obviously an upgrade over Layne

Leon- I chose Leon over Hanigan strickly because of his relationship with Buchholz as long as that continues.

What do you guys think? Am
I living in a dream land? Do you think it's to much to give up? I would even think of including Trey Ball instead of Raudes to get it done. We need another staff like Pedro and Schilling if we want to be playing in late October. Who knows what prospects will be. Example- Swihart, Owens, Johnson, Castillo ect.

Way to much to give up

Soxtober040713
06-19-2016, 10:32 PM
My only thought is you don't have to include Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley. I have a feeling they are gonna want 1 of those 3. If we don't dazzle them with prospects. Would you do:

Eduardo Rodriguez
Blake Swihart
Yoan Moncada
Rafael Devers

For

Jose Fernandez

ruckus16969
06-19-2016, 10:50 PM
I'd love to get Hernandez. But no way in he'll is worth Eroded Swihart Moncada Devers Kopech. I wouldn't send that package out for Harper. Trout maybe because he is locked up for a long time but God no for Hernandez.

We can probably get Harvey or Wheeler for allot less.

I'd get creative.

Send Hanley Swihart Owens and then a couple mid tier guys to the Mets for Harvey and a reliever see if they want Castillo and take a chance that he can hit better in the NL

Call Oakland and try to get Valencia he can play 1st 3b a and LF for Brentz and Marco Hernandez

Then I'd call San Diego and try to pry Rodney an if the Valencia thing didn't work out try for Myers.

But I'd be trying to ship Hanley out now while his stock is somewhat high. Or as high as it will probably get. And I'd try to replace with a guy that can play more then just 1b so that when Travis is ready he can go to another position.

I would also check in with Colorado and Milwaukee and see what kind of package the want for Braunfels and Cargo both are looking like there do selfsame but if they price wasn't ridiculous I'd pull the trigger cause either can help soften the blow of Ortiz retiring and just make that offense that much deeper for Pappis final World Series run

ciaban
06-20-2016, 07:40 AM
Why would Miami trade Fernandez now, they're leading the wild card, it seems a bit to early to just call it a year and go into a fire sale.

ciaban
06-20-2016, 07:46 AM
I'd love to get Hernandez. But no way in he'll is worth Eroded Swihart Moncada Devers Kopech. I wouldn't send that package out for Harper. Trout maybe because he is locked up for a long time but God no for Hernandez.

We can probably get Harvey or Wheeler for allot less.

I'd get creative.

Send Hanley Swihart Owens and then a couple mid tier guys to the Mets for Harvey and a reliever see if they want Castillo and take a chance that he can hit better in the NL

Call Oakland and try to get Valencia he can play 1st 3b a and LF for Brentz and Marco Hernandez

Then I'd call San Diego and try to pry Rodney an if the Valencia thing didn't work out try for Myers.

But I'd be trying to ship Hanley out now while his stock is somewhat high. Or as high as it will probably get. And I'd try to replace with a guy that can play more then just 1b so that when Travis is ready he can go to another position.

I would also check in with Colorado and Milwaukee and see what kind of package the want for Braunfels and Cargo both are looking like there do selfsame but if they price wasn't ridiculous I'd pull the trigger cause either can help soften the blow of Ortiz retiring and just make that offense that much deeper for Pappis final World Series run
Considering how much the Mets could get back for Harvey this off season if he bounces back, I don't see them taking Hanley's contract, a failed catching prospect and Owens, maybe a number 3 at the major league level eventually, they have that already.
I'm not sure a deal around Holmes and Verdugo + other stuff could get Harvey, let alone excess pieces the redsox just don't want anymore.

Green_Monster
06-20-2016, 09:32 AM
I really hope this is just a negotiating tactic by Miami. That they start high hoping the Sox would include high end prospects in their counter offer. There is only 1 player I would empty the Farm for and that's Jose Fernandez with a new deal signed upon completion of the trade. Of 6 years with opt out after 4.

Miami Gets:

Eduardo Rodriguez
Blake Swihart
Yoan Moncada(1)
Rafael Devers(4)
Michael Kopech(6)
Roniel Raudes(23)

Boston Gets:

Jose Fernandez
Ichiro Suzuki
Martin Prado
Mike Dunn

It may seem like a lot to
Give up. But even with out the extension for Fernandez it gives us 2 yrs of Price-Fernandez 1-2. The other 3 guys are all FA at the end of this year and help the Sox with depth and platoons

C- Christian Vazquez
1B- Hanley Ramirez
2B- Dustin Pedroia
3B- Travis Shaw
SS- Xander Bogaerts
LF- Chris Young
CF- Jackie Bradley
RF- Mookie Betts
DH- David Ortiz

Bench:
C- Sandy Leon
OF- Ichiro Suzuki
INF- Martin Prado
UTL- Brock Holt

1. David Price
2. Jose Fernandez
3. Steven Wright
4. Rick Porcello
5. Clay Buchholz

RHP- Matt Barnes
LHP- Robbie Ross
RHP- Heath Hembree
LHP- Mike Dunn
RHP- Junichi Tazawa
SU- Koji Uehara
CL- Craig Kimbrel

Ichiro- can be 4th outfielder/ platoon with Young until Holt is ready

Prado- Platoon with Shaw at 3rd if his slump continues or just be a bat off the bench.

Holt- goes back to his best position which is super utility

Dunn- obviously an upgrade over Layne

Leon- I chose Leon over Hanigan strickly because of his relationship with Buchholz as long as that continues.

What do you guys think? Am
I living in a dream land? Do you think it's to much to give up? I would even think of including Trey Ball instead of Raudes to get it done. We need another staff like Pedro and Schilling if we want to be playing in late October. Who knows what prospects will be. Example- Swihart, Owens, Johnson, Castillo ect.


Way to much to give up

It's a lot, but that's what it will take, minimum. Especially with those other three pieces coming back, even if they're just small pieces.

They wanted Betts, Rodriguez, Moncada, Vazquez, and another pitcher (probably Owens/Johnson) for Fernandez this offseason.

RedSoxtober
06-20-2016, 09:43 AM
Swihart's bat is above average, though certainly less special at a corner OF spot than behind the plate. I'm not completely certain that they've pulled the plug on him catching but he was behind the curve as compared to Hanigan and Vazquez and the Sox are definitely making a short-term play for Ortiz' final season.

The Mets need offense. They just got swept by the Braves (12% of the Braves wins for the season), scoring only 4 runs over the weekend. The lack of offense has been a theme all season. It's worse than last year's anemic offense that nearly derailed their incredible pitching from making a run in the playoffs. Bats for an arm makes a lot of sense.

ruckus16969
06-20-2016, 12:41 PM
Considering how much the Mets could get back for Harvey this off season if he bounces back, I don't see them taking Hanley's contract, a failed catching prospect and Owens, maybe a number 3 at the major league level eventually, they have that already.
I'm not sure a deal around Holmes and Verdugo + other stuff could get Harvey, let alone excess pieces the redsox just don't want anymore.

Hanley contract isn't as bad as it looked last year. If we ate day 5m a year then it wouldn't be bad at all.

I just really hope they don't send Devers Moncada or Benitinni

CeltBruinSoxFan
06-20-2016, 01:58 PM
I'd prefer to seek at trade for Steven Matz personally. I think he has longer staying power than Harvey.

I'd love to reach out to NYM and offer Swihart, Owens, Sam Travis or Devers and a A or AA prospect and see where the conversation goes. Like some have said, maybe eat $4-6M per year of Hanley's contract and offer him as well. I think Matz is a great pitcher . . . better than Harvey.

I'm not comfortable giving up Moncada just because we don't know how many more years Dustin has left playing at a high level. I'd be willing to give up Benintendi . . . but not for anything other than a sure fire ace.

Ewagner
06-20-2016, 04:17 PM
I wish the Sox could make a godfather offer to Oakland for Gray, Doolittle, Madsen, and Reddick. You could platoon Reddick with Young. I would be willing to give 4-5 prospects, Swihart, and even Travis Shaw if they would include Valencia

RedSoxtober
06-20-2016, 05:27 PM
Hanley contract isn't as bad as it looked last year. If we ate day 5m a year then it wouldn't be bad at all.

I just really hope they don't send Devers Moncada or Benitinni
Hanley's at -0.3WAR$ this year. That's not as bad as last year (-14.4M) but it's not remotely enticing. Who wants a "slugger" at an offensive position with a 93 wRC+? At $17M/yr (if you eat $5M/yr) it's still not interesting.


I'd prefer to seek at trade for Steven Matz personally. I think he has longer staying power than Harvey.

Everyone would prefer Matz... including the Mets. The reason that you would consider going after Harvey is not that he's better but rather that they'd be more likely to deal him given that they have less control (2.5yrs vs 4.5yrs) and he's less productive. The aim would be to get him bouncing back from a bad start with the potential to slide into a #2-3 type role for FAR less than the cost of Matz.

Bo Sox Fan
06-20-2016, 06:06 PM
Drew Pomeranz should be another arm to consider if the Padres have any motivation to move him.

papipapsmanny
06-20-2016, 06:18 PM
Harvey... I believe he is still a 4-5 WAR pitcher.

Cost.... Swihart/Holt/Kelly/Devers is probably what it takes. They will want MLB talent and a high end prospect. That may want another piece here in that deal.

Price
Harvey
Wright
Porcello
Erod/Clay

Soxtober040713
06-20-2016, 06:33 PM
I'd personally be willing to go

Swihart
Devers
Kelly
Brentz
AA/A player

For Harvey only with an extension tho.

cocossox
06-20-2016, 06:46 PM
Drew Pomeranz should be another arm to consider if the Padres have any motivation to move him.yeah that makes sense plus RS have been linked to Jon Jay too so maybe they can get both.

cocossox
06-20-2016, 06:50 PM
I could be wrong but I am not big on Matt Harvey, I'm more like Sale Or Fernandez, go big or go home I say JMO sorry.

BoSox47
06-20-2016, 07:27 PM
Harvey... I believe he is still a 4-5 WAR pitcher.

Cost.... Swihart/Holt/Kelly/Devers is probably what it takes. They will want MLB talent and a high end prospect. That may want another piece here in that deal.

Price
Harvey
Wright
Porcello
Erod/Clay

They arent dealing Harvey without Benintendi or Moncada coming back their way.

BoSox47
06-20-2016, 07:29 PM
I could be wrong but I am not big on Matt Harvey, I'm more like Sale Or Fernandez, go big or go home I say JMO sorry.

I think we should go after Quintana. He would come cheaper.

E-rod, Swihart, Devers would probably do it. I think we can get Quintana without giving up Moncada of Benintendi.

If we had to move Benintendi or Moncada I would move Benintendi but Fernendez better be coming back for one of those guys. Also will take more prospects.

ciaban
06-20-2016, 09:27 PM
Swihart's bat is above average, though certainly less special at a corner OF spot than behind the plate. I'm not completely certain that they've pulled the plug on him catching but he was behind the curve as compared to Hanigan and Vazquez and the Sox are definitely making a short-term play for Ortiz' final season.

The Mets need offense. They just got swept by the Braves (12% of the Braves wins for the season), scoring only 4 runs over the weekend. The lack of offense has been a theme all season. It's worse than last year's anemic offense that nearly derailed their incredible pitching from making a run in the playoffs. Bats for an arm makes a lot of sense.
But dose Hanley and Swihart fix their problems NOW. Including Swihart in a trade works for a team that's rebuilding, or can just afford to give him the AB he needs to develop, if the Mets are trying to win now, they'll need something more substantial back for Matt Harvey.

Hanley contract isn't as bad as it looked last year. If we ate day 5m a year then it wouldn't be bad at all.

I just really hope they don't send Devers Moncada or Benitinni
He's slugging .390
Considering how bad the pitching market is, even with a need for bats, they could likely do better than that for Harvey.

ciaban
06-20-2016, 09:32 PM
I'd personally be willing to go

Swihart
Devers
Kelly
Brentz
AA/A player

For Harvey only with an extension tho.
Devers is definitely and improvement, but this seems like it's still an offer of, "here are a bunch of guys that didn't really work out for us, you can have them.+Devers" Why take that when they can wait, it's not like that trade makes their major league team any better at scoring runs.

Then it really isn't happening. Why would Harvey and Boras take an extension in the middle of his worst season 2 years from free agency?

Green_Monster
06-20-2016, 09:41 PM
Devers is definitely and improvement, but this seems like it's still an offer of, "here are a bunch of guys that didn't really work out for us, you can have them.+Devers" Why take that when they can wait, it's not like that trade makes their major league team any better at scoring runs.

Then it really isn't happening. Why would Harvey and Boras take an extension in the middle of his worst season 2 years from free agency?

Blake Swihart does not fall under that category. A position switch for him had been discussed ever since he was drafted, it's not like he lost all of his value by moving from catcher. He still has a high potential bat and he's an athlete who looked good in LF. He was also looking better with the bat before getting injured.

He does not fall under the same category as Kelly and Brentz who, as you said, didn't really work out.

ciaban
06-20-2016, 10:14 PM
Blake Swihart does not fall under that category. A position switch for him had been discussed ever since he was drafted, it's not like he lost all of his value by moving from catcher. He still has a high potential bat and he's an athlete who looked good in LF. He was also looking better with the bat before getting injured.

He does not fall under the same category as Kelly and Brentz who, as you said, didn't really work out.
I meant it more as in he didn't really work out for the redsox, he doesn't have a clear spot on the ML roster, and I didn't say he wasn't without value either, just that he would likely be more valuable to a team rebuilding who can give him the AB's he needs, rather than a team like the Mets who would need him to come in and hit the ground running since their offense has been bad.

RedSoxtober
06-21-2016, 09:04 AM
But dose Hanley and Swihart fix their problems NOW. Including Swihart in a trade works for a team that's rebuilding, or can just afford to give him the AB he needs to develop, if the Mets are trying to win now, they'll need something more substantial back for Matt Harvey.

No, he does not help them (nor is the combination with Hanley at all enticing to the Mets). With his severe ankle sprain Swihart may be out until August and is no guarantee to be productive when he returns. I was not trying to suggest that the offer would get it done. Rather, I was objecting specifically to your comments on Swihart, like the one below, that I think are missing the mark.


I meant it more as in he didn't really work out for the redsox, he doesn't have a clear spot on the ML roster, and I didn't say he wasn't without value either, just that he would likely be more valuable to a team rebuilding who can give him the AB's he needs, rather than a team like the Mets who would need him to come in and hit the ground running since their offense has been bad.

As I just said, I think that you're mischaracterizing Swihart. If he doesn't have a clear spot on the ML roster, that may very well be only a short-term problem. He was ahead of Young when he came back in the OF and I honestly believe that was a short-term move targeting the Sox' need for a LH presence in the lineup. Clearly his work behind the plate has taken a hit but I'm not completely sure whether or not that's completely done (it may very well be).

That said, I also wonder if your thoughts on the Mets are too short-term focused. They've got Syndergaard, de Gom, Matz, and Wheeler under control through at least 2019. They could take a longer-term view with a deal that has a balance between "win now" and that 3-5 year horizon. Duda, Walker, and Granderson will need replacements relatively soon and Cespedes could walk after this year. That'd be a pretty heavy hit to a struggling offense.

Soxtober040713
06-21-2016, 10:09 PM
Okay. Here it is. It's the All Star break. The Marlins are still in the chase and Dave Dombrowski picks up the phone and calls Miami and pulls. Kevin Costner in Draft day and says I'll give you Espinoza, Devers, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens For Fernandez and I need an answer right now and this is the final offer. If your Miami do you take it?

I know all my fellow Sox fans might think it's a ridiculous offer way to many prospects but honestly that's what it is gonna take. We arnt gonna get him for Owens, Swihart, a case of skoal and a bucket of balls. Fernandez is 23 yrs old and
9-3 with 132K with a 2.36 ERA.

I say do it. Espinoza is 18 who knows what he will be. Devers same thing middlebrooks was suppose to be a stud. That worked out well.

Rodriguez replaces Fernandez this year. And Swihart can move back behind the plate in Miami

And we keep Moncada and Benintendi to play LF in 2017 and 3B in 2018. Which I believe is when we will see them. They will be in AAA by August with Benentindi getting the call in next year and Moncada switching to 3B and starting in AAA. My thoughts anyway. I could be foolish.

Bo Sox Fan
06-21-2016, 10:28 PM
- Give me 3B Nolan Arenado:
Shaw (1B/3B)
Devers (3B)
Benintendi (OF)
Kopech (SP)

- Give me RP Doolittle + SP Hill:
Chavis (3B)
Kelly (SP)
Layne (RP)
Basabe (OF)
(Eat entire contract of Doolittle)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. R Bogaerts SS
4. L Ortiz DH
5. R Arenado 3B
6. R Ramirez 1B
7. L Bradley CF
8. R Young LF
9. R Vazquez C

L Price
R Wright
L Hill
R Porcello
L Rodriguez

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Uehara
R Tazawa
L Ross Jr
R Barnes
R Buchholz

BGeer091
06-21-2016, 10:43 PM
A friend at work proposed this deal to me.

McGee and Gonzales for Swihart, ERod and 2 lower specs.

That seems fair but idk if I'd do it...

j-bay
06-21-2016, 10:54 PM
- Give me 3B Nolan Arenado:
Shaw (1B/3B)
Devers (3B)
Benintendi (OF)
Kopech (SP)

- Give me RP Doolittle + SP Hill:
Chavis (3B)
Kelly (SP)
Layne (RP)
Basabe (OF)
(Eat entire contract of Doolittle)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. R Bogaerts SS
4. L Ortiz DH
5. R Arenado 3B
6. R Ramirez 1B
7. L Bradley CF
8. R Young LF
9. R Vazquez C

L Price
R Wright
L Hill
R Porcello
L Rodriguez

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Uehara
R Tazawa
L Ross Jr
R Barnes
R Buchholz

No way the Rockies ars giving up Arenado.

The Sox do need a hitter though. They need a lot of things. We don't need an ace. We need

A hitter (LFer should probably be the position)
A #3 starter (Price and Wright got 1-2 covered)
Relief Pitcher(s)
And Good Bench Players (Enough with Hernandez, Rutledge and LaMarre please!)

RedSoxtober
06-22-2016, 10:07 AM
A week or so ago I that the Sox were something like 25-3 when they score 5+ runs and 1-12 less than 5. That might not seem like much of a concern when they're averaging 5.60 R/G but it looks a lot more like that average was padded by a very weak early scheduled (which some folks warned about at the time). The Sox have had 7 opponents who currently have .500 records and they've scored more than 5 R/G against only three of them.

One more related point: the Sox are clearly struggling in the toughest stretch of the season so far. Between the travel and the competition they're barely playing .500 ball themselves. They're "historic" offense has dropped off to 4.67 R/G in the month of June (5.25 in April, 7.80 in May).

Getting handcuffed by the White Sox emphasizes the same point: the Sox may feast on weak pitching but the offense doesn't do much with good pitching. IMO arguing against considering a bat, particularly a LHB, at the trade deadline is being overly influenced by the picnic we had early in the season.

j-bay
06-22-2016, 11:52 AM
A week or so ago I that the Sox were something like 25-3 when they score 5+ runs and 1-12 less than 5. That might not seem like much of a concern when they're averaging 5.60 R/G but it looks a lot more like that average was padded by a very weak early scheduled (which some folks warned about at the time). The Sox have had 7 opponents who currently have .500 records and they've scored more than 5 R/G against only three of them.

One more related point: the Sox are clearly struggling in the toughest stretch of the season so far. Between the travel and the competition they're barely playing .500 ball themselves. They're "historic" offense has dropped off to 4.67 R/G in the month of June (5.25 in April, 7.80 in May).

Getting handcuffed by the White Sox emphasizes the same point: the Sox may feast on weak pitching but the offense doesn't do much with good pitching. IMO arguing against considering a bat, particularly a LHB, at the trade deadline is being overly influenced by the picnic we had early in the season.

Hmm I think we need a OFer. You think we need a LHB. Sounds like this guy too me.

http://m.mlb.com/player/471865/carlos-gonzalez

Ewagner
06-22-2016, 01:32 PM
I would like to see them package Swihart, Basabe, Chavis, Espinoza, Kopech, and Brian Johnson and offer it to Oakland, Miami, and Atlanta for Gray, Fernandez, or Teheran.

The Allen
06-22-2016, 02:21 PM
I would like to see them package Swihart, Basabe, Chavis, Espinoza, Kopech, and Brian Johnson and offer it to Oakland, Miami, and Atlanta for Gray, Fernandez, or Teheran.
Way too much for Gray and Teheran. Gray doing ace things could command that, add in Doolittle and then I'm down.

Ewagner
06-22-2016, 02:33 PM
Way too much for Gray and Teheran. Gray doing ace things could command that, add in Doolittle and then I'm down.

Sonny Gray and Teheran are both under team control until 2020. Here's my theory on these packages. 1. You are not giving up your top hitting prospects in Travis, Moncada, Devers, or Benintendi. 2. If you are keeping those guys Basabe, Chavis, and Swihart are all blocked. 3. I'm always up for trading minor league pitchers because especially those that are as far away as Kopech and Espinoza. This will give you a starting five of Price, Gray or Teheran, Porcello, Rodriguez, and Wright for the next 4 years. You should be able to develop some other pitchers in the meantime.

The Allen
06-22-2016, 02:35 PM
You could honestly get Gray for Devers/Espinoza + Kopech + Swihart. You're adding in a ton of meh wild cards.

j-bay
06-22-2016, 02:41 PM
As far as i'm concerned we don't need an ace. Price is looking like his old self and Wright is a good #2. We need a #3

Price
Wright

Porcello
E-Rod

Ewagner
06-22-2016, 03:38 PM
You could honestly get Gray for Devers/Espinoza + Kopech + Swihart. You're adding in a ton of meh wild cards.

I don't think they are going to take 2 A players and a hurt major league player for an guy who has major league ace experience

byan04
06-22-2016, 05:21 PM
Okay. Here it is. It's the All Star break. The Marlins are still in the chase and Dave Dombrowski picks up the phone and calls Miami and pulls. Kevin Costner in Draft day and says I'll give you Espinoza, Devers, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens For Fernandez and I need an answer right now and this is the final offer. If your Miami do you take it?

I know all my fellow Sox fans might think it's a ridiculous offer way to many prospects but honestly that's what it is gonna take. We arnt gonna get him for Owens, Swihart, a case of skoal and a bucket of balls. Fernandez is 23 yrs old and
9-3 with 132K with a 2.36 ERA.

I say do it. Espinoza is 18 who knows what he will be. Devers same thing middlebrooks was suppose to be a stud. That worked out well.

Rodriguez replaces Fernandez this year. And Swihart can move back behind the plate in Miami

And we keep Moncada and Benintendi to play LF in 2017 and 3B in 2018. Which I believe is when we will see them. They will be in AAA by August with Benentindi getting the call in next year and Moncada switching to 3B and starting in AAA. My thoughts anyway. I could be foolish.



my problem with this swihart going to miami is they already have a young catcher in Realmuto ..other than that the deal seems pretty sound . with all that was there the players we have are blocked ..eduardo if he cant get fixed then deal him for someone that can be a decent and good number 3/4 guy . we need a left handed bat in the lineup..to many righties ..if u ask me ..we need someone to platoon or be a fulltime player in left.. We also need some bullpen pieces.. when Carson Smith got hurt that was a huge blow cus of how much tax.. it gave on the bullpen with Taz/Koji..ross...and barnes. and so on..Hanley is playing great at first but he needs to get back to his old hitting ways..im all for trading young pitching prospects because of the fact the guys we draft will be ready in a few years and the rotation will be set with young arms ..Teheran/Fernandez OR Gray ..id say Moncada and Benintendi are pretty close to untouchable but thats just my opinion ..they need to make something happen soon tho .. the pitching and now the hitting is going south ..something needs to be done to have this team get in the winning position again

Bo Sox Fan
06-22-2016, 05:34 PM
I'd use Edro as the main piece in a Gray swap if it meant saving our top 4 specs in the farm. (Would still part with Devers)

Let's be honest, Gray has proved "it" repeatedly while we're still banking on the word "potential" with Rodriguez. What are we waiting for, the teams built to win now.

papipapsmanny
06-22-2016, 06:22 PM
Trying to stay realistic here. Seems everyone is hell bent on getting a bat for the OF

Reddick and Gray for Devers, Swihart, Espinoza, Owens, Chavis, and Dubon.

I'd be alright with that. Problem is that it's anyone's guess what Beane would actually ask from us.

Soxtober040713
06-22-2016, 07:12 PM
Remove Espinoza add kopech/ball and Add Doolittle.

For some reason I feel like we are gonna trade for Jay Bruce. With a package like Owens Chavis Stankewiczs

papipapsmanny
06-22-2016, 09:39 PM
I actually am a bigger Kopech fan than espinoza. Just personal opinion.

I am not saying Espinoza isn't very good, but he is such an unknown I don't really put any value in what he did in GCL. People in here acting like he is a sure thing is really blowing my mind.

Moncada and Benintendi are way ahead of him in my eyes in terms of value

Soxtober040713
06-22-2016, 10:02 PM
I agree big part of why I would try to force Miamis hand with a godfather offer they couldn't refuse. I know they want bogey or betts for Fernandez but I think they would pull the trigger on getting Espinoza, Devers, Dubon,Swihart, Rodriguez.

I would blow up the farm if it meant getting Fernandez. He is exactly what Boston needs. Since its obvious he will be in NY, LA or Boston anyway in 2 yrs. I'd give him more $ than Price.

j-bay
06-22-2016, 10:43 PM
Yeah...At this point you guys need to give up the selling the farm for an ace idea and look at this a little more clear. If we aquire a pitcher it will a #3. Not an ace. We need a hitter, a bench player or 2, and a lot of relief pitching.

RedSoxtober
06-23-2016, 09:56 AM
I'd use Edro as the main piece in a Gray swap if it meant saving our top 4 specs in the farm. (Would still part with Devers)

Let's be honest, Gray has proved "it" repeatedly while we're still banking on the word "potential" with Rodriguez. What are we waiting for, the teams built to win now.

I'm a bit concerned that Gray's bad start is the continuation of a trend that has spiked exponentially. When he exploded onto the league in 2013 he struck out 25% of the batters he faced. It dropped to 20.4% and 20.3% the last couple of years before falling to 18.7% this year. At the same time, his LD% is climbing which helps explain why, despite being a big time GB pitcher, his XBH% has more than doubled this season. He has had much better results since skipping start at the end of May but the LD% has also jumped in that same period (up almost 30%).

I'd be a lot more comfortable giving up A prospects if I saw him level out to something approaching his previous seasons but I'm still going to be concerned about the trends.

Ewagner
06-23-2016, 11:01 AM
Is there anyway the Sox and A's don't make some sort of trade? They match up perfectly. It's just a matter of how many prospects the Red Sox send to Oakland for how many players. What I've heard of Dave Dom trade techniques is he calls the GM and says this is who I want and this is what I'm willing to give up and hangs up and waits for a call back. I'm guessing Dave calls and says I'm interested in these players.

Josh Reddick
Sonny Gray
Sean Doolittle
Ryan Madsen
Rich Hill
Danny Valencia

here are the guys I'm willing to move

Travis Shaw
Blake Swihart
Luis Basabe
Michael Chavis
Brian Johnson
Michael Kopech
Anderson Espinoza
Joe Kelly
Clay Buchholz

Let's make something work. click

byan04
06-23-2016, 11:42 AM
Is there anyway the Sox and A's don't make some sort of trade? They match up perfectly. It's just a matter of how many prospects the Red Sox send to Oakland for how many players. What I've heard of Dave Dom trade techniques is he calls the GM and says this is who I want and this is what I'm willing to give up and hangs up and waits for a call back. I'm guessing Dave calls and says I'm interested in these players.

Josh Reddick
Sonny Gray
Sean Doolittle
Ryan Madsen
Rich Hill
Danny Valencia

here are the guys I'm willing to move

Travis Shaw
Blake Swihart
Luis Basabe
Michael Chavis
Brian Johnson
Michael Kopech
Anderson Espinoza
Joe Kelly
Clay Buchholz

Let's make something work. click


why do i get the feeling that the Mets and Devers work out perfectly considering David Wright is having neck surgery now. the piece that they want at third is there for the taking they just have to pony up the player. ..Also id be okay with trading eduardo for sonny/teheran or Jose Fernandez especially ..

cocossox
06-23-2016, 11:47 AM
what would it take to get J.Terihan from the Braves.

The Allen
06-23-2016, 11:57 AM
what would it take to get J.Terihan from the Braves.
Swihart, Espinoza, [mid tier hitter, Chavis?] Would likely get it done.

cocossox
06-23-2016, 12:06 PM
Swihart, Espinoza, [mid tier hitter, Chavis?] Would likely get it done. I'd be ok with that. but that said it makes me cringe when NL pitchers come to the AL.

The Allen
06-23-2016, 12:11 PM
I'd be ok with that. but that said it makes me cringe when NL pitchers come to the AL.
With his control, and with how good he's been this season...yeah he'd **** the bed on arrival. Let's go get someone in the AL to be safe.

Ewagner
06-23-2016, 12:13 PM
why do i get the feeling that the Mets and Devers work out perfectly considering David Wright is having neck surgery now. the piece that they want at third is there for the taking they just have to pony up the player. ..Also id be okay with trading eduardo for sonny/teheran or Jose Fernandez especially ..

Devers is in A ball. I'm thinking they want someone a little higher than that. I think the Mets over pay for Valencia.

Ewagner
06-23-2016, 12:14 PM
For some reason I feel like we are gonna trade for Jay Bruce. With a package like Owens Chavis Stankewiczs

god I hope not. I would rather have Reddick

Ewagner
06-23-2016, 12:18 PM
Swihart, Espinoza, [mid tier hitter, Chavis?] Would likely get it done.

I think it is going to take more than that. He is controllable for 4 more years and he is young. I think that is going to be a good start but you will have to include Brian Johnson and another high ceiling guy lower level guy like Basabe

The Allen
06-23-2016, 12:21 PM
I think it is going to take more than that. He is controllable for 4 more years and he is young. I think that is going to be a good start but you will have to include Brian Johnson and another high ceiling guy lower level guy like Basabe
Add in Vizcaino and probably. No way we deal five players for Teheran alone. Especially with Espinoza and Swihart in the deal already.

RedSoxtober
06-23-2016, 12:28 PM
It is a testament to the strength of the Red Sox offense that the team has been held to four or fewer runs just 27 times this year, the fewest in the majors. In a way, however, the infrequency of such offensive outages has masked growing evidence of limitations and even deficiencies when they aren’t in slugfests.

On Tuesday night, White Sox lefthander and perennial Cy Young candidate Chris Sale dominated the Red Sox en route to Chicago’s 3-1 win over Boston. A loss to Sale is forgivable. Yet the manner in which the Sox lost has become part of a larger pattern.

The Red Sox are a paltry 5-22 when scoring four or fewer runs this year. Since the beginning of May, they are 1-16 when held to four runs of fewer – a development that augurs poorly for a team that is suddenly experiencing offensive outages with considerably more frequency. The Sox have managed four or fewer runs seven times in their last nine games; they are 1-6 in those contests.

Their inability to win low-scoring games is uncharacteristic of a team that is trying to assert itself as one of the best in the game. The Sox’ .185 winning percentage when being held to fewer than five runs is the third worst in the majors. The other three teams that have sub-.200 winning percentages when scoring four or fewer runs are the three worst teams in the majors: The Reds (.190 winning percentage when scoring four or fewer runs), the Braves (.163), and the Twins (.049).

To this point, the Red Sox have not been a team that has won low-scoring games. They have not been a team that has won close games (6-9 record in one-run contests, with a .400 winning percentage that is 21st in the majors).

They have held their own in impressive fashion against their better opponents, with a 22-21 record (.512 winning percentage) against teams that are .500 or better, a mark that is tied with the Orioles for the seventh-best in the majors. However, over the last three and a half weeks, they’re 8-11 against teams of that caliber, with their only series win coming against a Mariners team (36-35) that is in a downward spiral.Alex Speier

RedSoxtober
06-23-2016, 03:42 PM
Shields entered today's game with a 21.81 ERA. We'll be the first AL team against whom he's (a) lasted more than 5IP and (b) given up fewer than 7ER. Quite honestly, if the bats don't come around very soon it won't be worth making any deals.

j-bay
06-23-2016, 04:00 PM
Shields entered today's game with a 21.81 ERA. We'll be the first AL team against whom he's (a) lasted more than 5IP and (b) given up fewer than 7ER. Quite honestly, if the bats don't come around very soon it won't be worth making any deals.

We need offense. At this point the whole discussion about getting an ace needs to stop.

Ewagner
06-23-2016, 04:20 PM
http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/inside-baseball-with-jon-heyman/dream-trade-scenarios/

6. Sonny Gray to the Red Sox for Eduardo Rodriguez, Henry Owens, RHP Michael Kopech and 1B Sam Travis. Since it isn’t clear the A’s will even entertain trade offers for their ace Gray, this one is a major long shot. But it has to have a better chance than these two: Jose Fernandez and Gerrit Cole, two other pitchers the Red Sox called on (“pipe dreams” one rival GM calls those two inquiries). While there’s no evidence Gray is available yet, A’s GM Billy Beane has a history of being willing to try to do anything. The price for a front-line starter is way up, and though Gray is having an uncharacteristically poor season and Beane doesn’t like to sell low, the belief is that he could still get 75 cents on the dollar, or more, for such a beloved ace. Kopech is a talented guy with some questions and Travis is on the D.L. but had a huge spring (“the next Paul Goldschmidt,” one scout said).

Soxfan85
06-23-2016, 04:55 PM
Like there is some virus going through the team. 1st it was SP. Then went to hitting. Now it's the bullpen. We need help. Like J-Bay said we don't need an ace to gut the farm. Get someone who can pitch and give us innings. We need help on the PH these call ups have been ridiculous.

Issues that need addressing

1. A Starting pitcher that's not an ace because I don't want to gut the farm. If DD can get an ace without giving up top prospects go for it, But it won't happen. Someone to give us quality starts like Rich Hill see what they want in return it shouldn't be alot.

2. Need RP

3. Need another utility player.

Bo Sox Fan
06-23-2016, 05:02 PM
Like there is some virus going through the team. 1st it was SP. Then went to hitting. Now it's the bullpen. We need help. Like J-Bay said we don't need an ace to gut the farm. Get someone who can pitch and give us innings. We need help on the PH these call ups have been ridiculous.

Issues that need addressing

1. A Starting pitcher that's not an ace because I don't want to gut the farm. If DD can get an ace without giving up top prospects go for it, But it won't happen. Someone to give us quality starts like Rich Hill see what they want in return it shouldn't be alot.

2. Need RP

3. Need another utility player.

Everyone knows this. It gets mentioned repeatedly. The question is, when is Dombrowski gonna quit sitting on his hands with his finger up his Yahoo and do something about it.

Might as well wait until we're sitting comfortably in 4th place. FWIW, we do need a co ace, legitimate #2 type starter. Rich Hill fits that bill for 2016, and 2016 alone.

j-bay
06-23-2016, 05:10 PM
Everyone knows this. It gets mentioned repeatedly. The question is, when is Dombrowski gonna quit sitting on his hands with his finger up his Yahoo and do something about it.

Might as well wait until we're sitting comfortably in 4th place. FWIW, we do need a co ace, legitimate #2 type starter. Rich Hill fits that bill for 2016, and 2016 alone.
Meh disagree. Wright has done a good job being the #2 so far. Although Hill would be a good #3

papipapsmanny
06-23-2016, 10:41 PM
We need offense. At this point the whole discussion about getting an ace needs to stop.

What? Our offense is the only reason we are within 2 games of the AL east lead. Our pitching is why we are not in first.

Once again we are number 1 in all offensive categories.... yet the thought of not maintaining that number 1 position is leading people to believe that we need more offense? We scored 6 and 8 runs the last two games lost by 2 and won one by 1..... yet we need more offense.

We need pitching... we need a number 2 pitcher type. Porcello is what I believe he always has been a meh to decent 3 and a great 4 on a good team. He is a career 4.00+ FIP, 2-3 WAR pitcher... that is what he is. He gives very much the same production that Wade Miley has historically offered in his career. Porcello needs to be moved down to the 4th slot while bringing someone better in to the 3.

We need an SP its pretty damn obvious.

j-bay
06-24-2016, 02:59 AM
What? Our offense is the only reason we are within 2 games of the AL east lead. Our pitching is why we are not in first.

Once again we are number 1 in all offensive categories.... yet the thought of not maintaining that number 1 position is leading people to believe that we need more offense? We scored 6 and 8 runs the last two games lost by 2 and won one by 1..... yet we need more offense.

We need pitching... we need a number 2 pitcher type. Porcello is what I believe he always has been a meh to decent 3 and a great 4 on a good team. He is a career 4.00+ FIP, 2-3 WAR pitcher... that is what he is. He gives very much the same production that Wade Miley has historically offered in his career. Porcello needs to be moved down to the 4th slot while bringing someone better in to the 3.

We need an SP its pretty damn obvious.

Yeah you can point out the #1 offense all you want, but really when the offense is being carried by 5 guys. Plus Young is going to the DL and shouldn't have been an everyday option. For me it depends if Hanley and Shaw can't get it together. If they can, then we only need bench guys.

As for a #2 pitcher, that has been lowered down on list. Price-Wright are 1-2. Unless Wright falls we are set. We don't need to trade the whole farm for one guy when we can get a #3 cheap so we can fill needs like bullpen and bench.

RedSoxtober
06-24-2016, 10:57 AM
Once again we are number 1 in all offensive categories.... yet the thought of not maintaining that number 1 position is leading people to believe that we need more offense? We scored 6 and 8 runs the last two games lost by 2 and won one by 1..... yet we need more offense.
We scored as many runs in the last two games as we had in the PREVIOUS WEEK. As I've posted here several times recently, the number 1 positions that your droning on and on about are based primarily on feasting on weak opponents in late April and May. Now that we're facing stronger competition the offense looks much more common; it's slightly above league average in terms of run production. We've got one of the worst records in baseball when held to 4ER or less and that's happened in 10 of our last 20 games (2ER or less in 8 of those). Hanley's been so bad that he's dropped to 7th, Shaw can't hit LHP... or anywhere other than Fenway, the catching position is basically a blackhole offensively (spare me any Leon arguments), and we're about to feature a AAAA type in LF at best. Our bench has little to offer with the likes of Hernandez and Lemarre getting game-ending PAs.

Unfortunately, this offense is no longer what it was. While you're right that the offense is the reason that the Sox challenged for first place for the last month or so, the offensive drop (30%, down more than 2.5 R/G vs May) has had a lot to do with going 12-15 over the last month and dropping from 2 games up to 2 games back.


We need pitching... we need a number 2 pitcher type. Porcello is what I believe he always has been a meh to decent 3 and a great 4 on a good team. He is a career 4.00+ FIP, 2-3 WAR pitcher... that is what he is. He gives very much the same production that Wade Miley has historically offered in his career. Porcello needs to be moved down to the 4th slot while bringing someone better in to the 3.

We need an SP its pretty damn obvious.
The Sox came into the season needing SP and that's not going to change. The question is more about where in the rotation they'd fit than anything else. The FA contracts that you would normally consider picking up are either crap or question marks. For example, an injured Hill who has not had a SP workload in almost a decade is not guaranteed either to come back strong or to finish the season strong. As a result of the impending weak FA market, the cost of pitching assets is astronomical. Trades which would be painful in other seasons are going to be uncategorically raping the landscape this year. It's just not the time to target a big name.

So I'm kinda shocked to say that I basically agree with j-bay. Basically. I'd like a SP with a bit more upside that is under control through at least 2018 (this basically covers what we'd hope to get out or Owens/Johnson). Another RP is also obvious... but this is also a longer-term asset to help backfill what Koji/Taz have offered since they're both in contract years. Those two and a LHB, probably OF, would be my blueprint.

j-bay
06-24-2016, 12:08 PM
We scored as many runs in the last two games as we had in the PREVIOUS WEEK. As I've posted here several times recently, the number 1 positions that your droning on and on about are based primarily on feasting on weak opponents in late April and May. Now that we're facing stronger competition the offense looks much more common; it's slightly above league average in terms of run production. We've got one of the worst records in baseball when held to 4ER or less and that's happened in 10 of our last 20 games (2ER or less in 8 of those). Hanley's been so bad that he's dropped to 7th, Shaw can't hit LHP... or anywhere other than Fenway, the catching position is basically a blackhole offensively (spare me any Leon arguments), and we're about to feature a AAAA type in LF at best. Our bench has little to offer with the likes of Hernandez and Lemarre getting game-ending PAs.

Unfortunately, this offense is no longer what it was. While you're right that the offense is the reason that the Sox challenged for first place for the last month or so, the offensive drop (30%, down more than 2.5 R/G vs May) has had a lot to do with going 12-15 over the last month and dropping from 2 games up to 2 games back.


The Sox came into the season needing SP and that's not going to change. The question is more about where in the rotation they'd fit than anything else. The FA contracts that you would normally consider picking up are either crap or question marks. For example, an injured Hill who has not had a SP workload in almost a decade is not guaranteed either to come back strong or to finish the season strong. As a result of the impending weak FA market, the cost of pitching assets is astronomical. Trades which would be painful in other seasons are going to be uncategorically raping the landscape this year. It's just not the time to target a big name.

So I'm kinda shocked to say that I basically agree with j-bay. Basically. I'd like a SP with a bit more upside that is under control through at least 2018 (this basically covers what we'd hope to get out or Owens/Johnson). Another RP is also obvious... but this is also a longer-term asset to help backfill what Koji/Taz have offered since they're both in contract years. Those two and a LHB, probably OF, would be my blueprint.

This. Like i said i'm looking at Carlos Gonzalez for LF. The problem is with this starters trade market is the quality is so weak and the prices are so high. Sonny Gray despite having a bad year this, is still going to demand a good quality of players. Because the Market is so weak. Hill would be my guy. We don't need a #2. Wright is doing great. Try and get Hill in a package deal with Doolittle. After Doolittle though i still think they need to acquire another good RP. Because right now it doesn't seem Farrell trusts anyone but Kimbrel. Thats bad. And then depending on how Holt and Young do when they get back, i would add another bench player or 2.

j-bay
06-24-2016, 12:16 PM
The Red Sox have reached out to the Braves to inquire about ace Julio Teheran and closer Arodys Vizcaino, reports Jim Bowden of ESPN and MLB Network Radio on SiriusXM (Twitter link). However, it would appear that the talks are somewhat preliminary in nature, as he adds that there’s no traction between the two sides at this time. In an audio clip from MLB Network Radio, Bowden adds that the problem for the Sox is that Atlanta is interested in the likes of Yoan Moncada and Andrew Benintendi (understandably so — most clubs would ask for those names when potentially dealing their top players), and the Sox are loath to surrender either.

The two sides do, as Bowden points out, make a fairly logical match in terms of a trade. MLBTR’s Connor Byrne noted as much several weeks ago when examining Teheran’s market and trying to find the most reasonable trade partners. Boston has a high volume of top-tier prospects, many of whom are effectively blocked at the Major League level. That’s not the case for Benintendi (left field for the Sox has been a season-long problem), which one would imagine makes it even more difficult for the Red Sox to part with him. But, the Braves are said to want MLB-ready talent in any trade that would send Teheran away, and that’s presumably an even greater point of emphasis in a package that would see Atlanta part with both Teheran and Vizcaino. Benitendi has already spent five weeks at the Double-A level and has recently begun hitting quite well there after some early struggles. It’s not inconceivable that he could be ready to contribute in 2016, and 2017 certainly seems like a realistic expectation.

Both Teheran and Vizcaino make sense as long-term options for the Sox. Teheran is guaranteed about $28MM through the 2019 season, and his contract contains a $12MM club option for the 2020 campaign, at which point he’ll still be just 29 years of age. Vizcaino, meanwhile, is controllable through 2019 by way of arbitration. Both players solve not only 2016 needs for the Sox but represent long-term upgrades. With Koji Uehara and Junichi Tazawa both slated to depart after 2016, the long-term appeal of Vizcaino, in particular, is easy to see.

From a bigger-picture perspective, the Red Sox’ search for pitching likely won’t be limited to just Atlanta. Boston has received stunningly excellent results from knuckleballer Steven Wright this season, and David Price has improved after a slow start while Rick Porcello has been a solid mid-rotation piece. Beyond that trio, however, the likes of Eduardo Rodriguez, Joe Kelly, Clay Buchholz and Henry Owens have been decidedly ineffective, resulting in a team that ranks 18th in the Majors with a collective 4.53 ERA from its starting pitchers. The bullpen has been better, pitching to a combined 3.56 ERA, but Uehara has struggled this season and Matt Barnes is averaging nearly five walks per nine innings despite a solid 3.21 ERA. Additionally, the team lost one of its top projected bullpen arms when offseason acquisition Carson Smith underwent Tommy John surgery earlier this year. Given the lack of traction in talks referenced by the initial report, the Sox may ultimately deem Atlanta’s asking price too steep and venture elsewhere to address their pitching needs, but this figures to be the first of many times that the Sox are connected to this pair of arms as the Aug. 1 non-waiver deadline approaches.

Regarding the Braves, there’s a fairly split camp on whether Teheran should be shopped at all. The entire MLBTR staff recently weighed in on the matter, and no consensus was reached. Similarly, a poll of MLBTR readers within that same roundtable showed that about two thirds of our reader base felt it worthwhile to shop Teheran, whereas the other third felt him valuable of a building block to surrender.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/06/redsox-teheran-vizcaino-trade-rumor-braves.html

Hahahahaha...No! Don't do it DD. I would be also nervous to trade Espinoza in this situation. I like what i have seen from the kid.

The Allen
06-24-2016, 04:06 PM
I'd be totally cool dealing Espinoza in this deal, but the Braves will want one of our two top hitters as well unfortunately.

Bo Sox Fan
06-24-2016, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't mind Jay Bruce at all for the rest of this year and next. Only $13 mil owed in 2017, solid numbers this season too, left handed bat. Would like to see his spray chart to see if he'd abuse the monster.

Nice bridge to Benintendi if he's still around past the trade deadline / winter.

papipapsmanny
06-24-2016, 06:26 PM
We scored as many runs in the last two games as we had in the PREVIOUS WEEK. As I've posted here several times recently, the number 1 positions that your droning on and on about are based primarily on feasting on weak opponents in late April and May. Now that we're facing stronger competition the offense looks much more common; it's slightly above league average in terms of run production. We've got one of the worst records in baseball when held to 4ER or less and that's happened in 10 of our last 20 games (2ER or less in 8 of those). Hanley's been so bad that he's dropped to 7th, Shaw can't hit LHP... or anywhere other than Fenway, the catching position is basically a blackhole offensively (spare me any Leon arguments), and we're about to feature a AAAA type in LF at best. Our bench has little to offer with the likes of Hernandez and Lemarre getting game-ending PAs.

Unfortunately, this offense is no longer what it was. While you're right that the offense is the reason that the Sox challenged for first place for the last month or so, the offensive drop (30%, down more than 2.5 R/G vs May) has had a lot to do with going 12-15 over the last month and dropping from 2 games up to 2 games back.


The Sox came into the season needing SP and that's not going to change. The question is more about where in the rotation they'd fit than anything else. The FA contracts that you would normally consider picking up are either crap or question marks. For example, an injured Hill who has not had a SP workload in almost a decade is not guaranteed either to come back strong or to finish the season strong. As a result of the impending weak FA market, the cost of pitching assets is astronomical. Trades which would be painful in other seasons are going to be uncategorically raping the landscape this year. It's just not the time to target a big name.

So I'm kinda shocked to say that I basically agree with j-bay. Basically. I'd like a SP with a bit more upside that is under control through at least 2018 (this basically covers what we'd hope to get out or Owens/Johnson). Another RP is also obvious... but this is also a longer-term asset to help backfill what Koji/Taz have offered since they're both in contract years. Those two and a LHB, probably OF, would be my blueprint.

This is so backwards though. So because our offense is not hitting at historic levels anymore which has caused us to play around .500 ball the solution is more offense? Our bad record when we score 4 runs or less should scream at you because out pitchers can't hold the opponent under that amount.

A bench player sure, go after that. We need a number 2 SP or someone better than Porcello to put at the three. I don't want Hill.

If we want to trade for Valencia and Doolittle that would be great, but going after names like Lucroy and Cargo is backwards. Not everyone in the lineup is or needs to be hitting .300 plus.

Soxfan85
06-24-2016, 06:30 PM
I wouldn't mind Jay Bruce at all for the rest of this year and next. Only $13 mil owed in 2017, solid numbers this season too, left handed bat. Would like to see his spray chart to see if he'd abuse the monster.

Nice bridge to Benintendi if he's still around past the trade deadline / winter.


http://www.brooksbaseball.net/plot_hc_spray.php?player=457803&startDate=01%2F01%2F2007&endDate=06%2F12%2F2016&s_type=13&var=count&b_hand=-1

theGhost-isGone
06-24-2016, 10:39 PM
Hmm I think we need a OFer. You think we need a LHB. Sounds like this guy too me.

http://m.mlb.com/player/471865/carlos-gonzalez

Been hoping for a reasonable shot at this guy for a while, not sure what it would take to get him but I'd love to see it happen.

MagicBucsSox
06-25-2016, 09:02 AM
I'm astonished teams really think they can pull betts or Xb from us. That's our future

ciaban
06-25-2016, 10:10 AM
I'm a bit concerned that Gray's bad start is the continuation of a trend that has spiked exponentially. When he exploded onto the league in 2013 he struck out 25% of the batters he faced. It dropped to 20.4% and 20.3% the last couple of years before falling to 18.7% this year. At the same time, his LD% is climbing which helps explain why, despite being a big time GB pitcher, his XBH% has more than doubled this season. He has had much better results since skipping start at the end of May but the LD% has also jumped in that same period (up almost 30%).

I'd be a lot more comfortable giving up A prospects if I saw him level out to something approaching his previous seasons but I'm still going to be concerned about the trends.
There's still a months worth of starts between now and the deadline for him to "bounce back" I guess, it's not as though the Redsox are going to completely fall out of the playoff hunt between now and then. And if they do, it's unlikely Gray would have fixed anything.

papipapsmanny
06-25-2016, 01:00 PM
Last 3 games we have scored 22 runs and our run differential is even in those three games..... Yeah we need another good starter

j-bay
06-25-2016, 03:45 PM
Last 3 games we have scored 22 runs and are run differential is even in those three games..... Yeah we need another good starter

We need a good starter.... At the same time this is a weak market. At this point i can picture gms rubbing their hands together knowing they will ge some good prospects. We need to be careful. I am not trading Moncada and AB in this market. I'm also nervous about trading Espinoza. You guys are willing to give up 10 years for one year? Thats stupid. We need to be careful. This isn't the market.

papipapsmanny
06-25-2016, 04:24 PM
Good SPs are always a sellers market.

I want to keep Benintendi, Moncada, and one of Kopech/Espinoza

Offering Swihart/Devers/Espinoza in a package will make a lot of SPs become more available.

Swihart, Devers, Espinoza, Chavis, Owens, and Hernandez for Gray and Valencia.

That's a lot and you only do it if you think Gray will continue to pitch the way he has the last 3 years. Valencia is a quality piece as well to get back

RedSoxtober
06-25-2016, 06:22 PM
This is so backwards though. So because our offense is not hitting at historic levels anymore which has caused us to play around .500 ball the solution is more offense? Our bad record when we score 4 runs or less should scream at you because out pitchers can't hold the opponent under that amount.
Your argument has been based on the sense that "this historic offense does not need any help" and that's frankly not true. We need an arm, preferably a long term one with at least midrotation stuff now, an RP, and a solid LHB bat for the bench.


There's still a months worth of starts between now and the deadline for him to "bounce back" I guess, it's not as though the Redsox are going to completely fall out of the playoff hunt between now and then. And if they do, it's unlikely Gray would have fixed anything.

Yes, I completely agree. I want to know that he's back to making a difference particularly because some of his trends are troubling.

papipapsmanny
06-25-2016, 08:45 PM
Your argument has been based on the sense that "this historic offense does not need any help" and that's frankly not true. We need an arm, preferably a long term one with at least midrotation stuff now, an RP, and a solid LHB bat for the bench.



Yes, I completely agree. I want to know that he's back to making a difference particularly because some of his trends are troubling.

No my argument is that spending resources to "get help" for a team that doesn't need it other than some depth is counter-productive. It does nothing to address the root cause of what is holding this team back.

We can get trade for Cargo and/or Lucroy and we would be the in same boat. A team that scored a lot of runs and a very mediocre rotation, and we would would less assets to use the address the actual problem.

j-bay
06-25-2016, 09:07 PM
No my argument is that spending resources to "get help" for a team that doesn't need it other than some depth is counter-productive. It does nothing to address the root cause of what is holding this team back.

We can get trade for Cargo and/or Lucroy and we would be the in same boat. A team that scored a lot of runs and a very mediocre rotation, and we would would less assets to use the address the actual problem.

And one pitcher isn't going to solve anything. We need a little bit of everything. Congrats we have scored 22 runs in 3 games. Still need to see more from Hanley and Shaw before I commit. Also our bench still sucks, and besides Kimbrel so does our bullpen. We need a lot more than just one pitcher. 5 guys on offense aimnt taking this team to the playoffs

Bo Sox Fan
06-25-2016, 09:39 PM
We don't need to acquire any bench pieces. Swihart will be back in 6 weeks apparently, and Holt any day now.

It's a temporary weakness that's about to become a strength in house. Add Hanigan to the mix and you may have to consider sending Vazquez back to the minors so we don't lose Leon.

j-bay
06-25-2016, 09:41 PM
We don't need to acquire any bench pieces. Swihart will be back in 6 weeks apparently, and Holt any day now.

It's a temporary weakness that's about to become a strength in house. Add Hanigan to the mix and you may have to consider sending Vazquez back to the minors so we don't lose Leon.

Yeah Holt was struggling, while Swihart is a project. We need a good reliable bench piece

papipapsmanny
06-25-2016, 09:53 PM
And one pitcher isn't going to solve anything. We need a little bit of everything. Congrats we have scored 22 runs in 3 games. Still need to see more from Hanley and Shaw before I commit. Also our bench still sucks, and besides Kimbrel so does our bullpen. We need a lot more than just one pitcher. 5 guys on offense aimnt taking this team to the playoffs

So I am to discount the fact that we have the number 1 ranked offense, and the fact that it has scored 22 runs in 3 games. I am to solely focus on the 3 weeks as possible cause for concern for the offense?

One good SP solves a lot, he will be starting in 20% of our remaining games. Don't act like all positions are equal. Our bullpen is alright, if the team would get its head out of its *** and move Kelly there that could help too.

j-bay
06-25-2016, 09:59 PM
So I am to discount the fact that we have the number 1 ranked offense, and the fact that it has scored 22 runs in 3 games. I am to solely focus on the 3 weeks as possible cause for concern for the offense?

One good SP solves a lot, he will be starting in 20% of our remaining games. Don't act like all positions are equal. Our bullpen is alright, if the team would get its head out of its *** and move Kelly there that could help too.

If Hanley has fully come back then yeah we don't need another. Our bullpen is BAD. Kelly ain't going to fix that. Kelly ain't going to fix the pen. As far as i'm concerned we can't get one guy. We have to get creative.

Soxfan85
06-25-2016, 10:05 PM
If the opportunity arises, Red Sox president Dave Dombrowski would be willing to make a trade with the archenemy Yankees, he told Brian MacPherson of the Providence Journal. Specifically, the Red Sox would have interest in the Yankees’ top relievers, notes MacPherson. The only trade the AL East rivals have made since 1977 came when the Sox dealt shortstop Stephen Drew to the Yankees in 2014, but that lack of history wouldn’t stop Dombrowski from trying to swing a deal with Brian Cashman. “If they’re in it and we’re in it, probably the odds are longer,” Dombrowski said in regards to a potential move. Boston, which possesses the top Wild Card position in the AL, is currently four games ahead of New York.

MLB Trade Rumors

papipapsmanny
06-25-2016, 10:21 PM
If Hanley has fully come back then yeah we don't need another. Our bullpen is BAD. Kelly ain't going to fix that. Kelly ain't going to fix the pen. As far as i'm concerned we can't get one guy. We have to get creative.

False the bullpen currently ranks 7th in WAR and 6th in FIP.

The Rotation ranks 21st in WAR and FIP. Again all signs point to the rotation as the root cause of the team's weakness.

If we are patient Holt, Rutledge, and hopefully Young will be back in the next 1-4 weeks (Holt being that 1 or so range) Then Swihart hopefully by the end of July/Early August. That solves the bench problem fairly easily.

If Kelly moving to the pen should be an option. If you feel we need another BP piece trade Buchholz for a reliever (it will help if Buchholz can go on one of his streaks)

Bo Sox Fan
06-25-2016, 10:41 PM
Steven Wright, for whatever reason, is using his fastball (or lack there of) a heck of a lot more lately and hitters are starting to wait for it.

This to me is a severe red flag heading into the second half. Another TORP is necessary, not another #3 mid level starter to throw in the mix of mediocrity with the rest of em. We have enough of those.

j-bay
06-25-2016, 10:59 PM
False the bullpen currently ranks 7th in WAR and 6th in FIP.

The Rotation ranks 21st in WAR and FIP. Again all signs point to the rotation as the root cause of the team's weakness.

If we are patient Holt, Rutledge, and hopefully Young will be back in the next 1-4 weeks (Holt being that 1 or so range) Then Swihart hopefully by the end of July/Early August. That solves the bench problem fairly easily.

If Kelly moving to the pen should be an option. If you feel we need another BP piece trade Buchholz for a reliever (it will help if Buchholz can go on one of his streaks)

You know stats are good to use sometimes. But they don't tell the full story. I get it! You and Bo Sox Fan and everyone else here want a TORP and are desperate to get one. The fact is the situation is bad. And we got holes that we need to fill.

j-bay
06-25-2016, 11:15 PM
Steven Wright, for whatever reason, is using his fastball (or lack there of) a heck of a lot more lately and hitters are starting to wait for it.

This to me is a severe red flag heading into the second half. Another TORP is necessary, not another #3 mid level starter to throw in the mix of mediocrity with the rest of em. We have enough of those.

Meh first bad game in how many starts. I'll watch the next few games to see if this is really an issue.

Green_Monster
06-26-2016, 09:21 AM
Wright wasn't amazing or anything but he got absolutely screwed by the defense and passed balls. That's why only 3 of those runs were earned. If we don't make those errors, it's still a 3-2 Texas lead after 5 innings instead of it being 8-2. He is probably the last one that should be blamed.

Bo Sox Fan
06-26-2016, 11:18 AM
MLB Trade Rumors

Wow. I think the media and our management group are jumping the gun here. New York is only 3 games back of Boston.

No way in hell do they make a deal with us. If anything, our terrible pitching will and has allowed them back in the race. We could easily be sitting in 4th place in a weeks time.

j-bay
06-26-2016, 01:02 PM
@IanMBrowne

David Ortiz not in today's lineup for the @RedSox. Brentz at DH. LaMarre in LF

This right here is why we need a good bench hitter.

BoSox47
06-26-2016, 02:39 PM
I'm astonished teams really think they can pull betts or Xb from us. That's our future

Other teams say the same when we say we want their top of the rotation pitcher.

RedSoxtober
06-26-2016, 02:56 PM
False the bullpen currently ranks 7th in WAR and 6th in FIP.

The Rotation ranks 21st in WAR and FIP. Again all signs point to the rotation as the root cause of the team's weakness.


This is the same basic argument as the one against the observation about the offense. In short "cumulatively we look really good even though we're struggling currently." It'd be good if you would at least acknowledge this.

Early in the season there were a few observations in the midst of the great run production. Among them were the observation that the offense could take a nosedive if their BABIP dropped from previously unseen levels and concerns about HanRam's output (which would have been a story if the rest of the lineup hadn't been killing it). There were some who had concerns that Shaw could get exposed as an every day player and some uncertainty about whether JBJ was the .400+ guy or the .200ish guy. The last month of play has shown each of those concerns to be real.

There were also plenty of concerns over the rotation -- particularly its depth. Those have also proven to be true.

We've now scored 19 runs in our last three games. Does it feel different when we got our ***** kicked 10-3 in the last game as opposed to a wild 8-7 come back? It does to me. Not only the emotional side but because it fits into a run where we've scored 4 or fewer runs in 8/12 games. 4R/G makes your offense below average even if you want to discount the Sox horrible record in those games. It's also a concern because of the games with 5+ runs, 4/5 came at home and we finish with a road-heavy schedule.

If you're putting confidence in Holt (76OPS+ from a traditionally first-half performer) making an impact, or Young coming back quickly, or Swihart (93OPS+, 23% k rate) providing pop late in the season, well, good for you.

Green_Monster
06-26-2016, 03:05 PM
Other teams say the same when we say we want their top of the rotation pitcher.

Sure, but how many of those pitchers are more valuable than Bogaerts or Betts? Very, very few. Out of those few, how many are anywhere near available? None.

papipapsmanny
06-26-2016, 04:51 PM
This is the same basic argument as the one against the observation about the offense. In short "cumulatively we look really good even though we're struggling currently." It'd be good if you would at least acknowledge this.

Early in the season there were a few observations in the midst of the great run production. Among them were the observation that the offense could take a nosedive if their BABIP dropped from previously unseen levels and concerns about HanRam's output (which would have been a story if the rest of the lineup hadn't been killing it). There were some who had concerns that Shaw could get exposed as an every day player and some uncertainty about whether JBJ was the .400+ guy or the .200ish guy. The last month of play has shown each of those concerns to be real.

There were also plenty of concerns over the rotation -- particularly its depth. Those have also proven to be true.

We've now scored 19 runs in our last three games. Does it feel different when we got our ***** kicked 10-3 in the last game as opposed to a wild 8-7 come back? It does to me. Not only the emotional side but because it fits into a run where we've scored 4 or fewer runs in 8/12 games. 4R/G makes your offense below average even if you want to discount the Sox horrible record in those games. It's also a concern because of the games with 5+ runs, 4/5 came at home and we finish with a road-heavy schedule.

If you're putting confidence in Holt (76OPS+ from a traditionally first-half performer) making an impact, or Young coming back quickly, or Swihart (93OPS+, 23% k rate) providing pop late in the season, well, good for you.

I'm not discounting it, I am saying your logic is backwards. Our horrible record when we score 4 runs or less is because of pitching, because our pitching rarely allows that many runs or less.. The offense could be a concern sure if you want me to focus on about 3.5 weeks of the season and completly ignore then other 2 months.

j-bay
06-26-2016, 05:02 PM
I'm not discounting it, I am saying your logic is backwards. Our horrible record when we score 4 runs or less is because of pitching, because our pitching rarely allows that many runs or less.. The offense could be a concern sure if you want me to focus on about 3.5 weeks of the season and completly ignore then other 2 months.

I'm looking at the game right now (and i blame Clay for the 3 runs), but if the offense is as good as you say they are, and the Sox don't give up anymore runs, then getting 4 runs with 8 innings left shouldn't be hard. Right now i see an issue.

Bo Sox Fan
06-26-2016, 05:21 PM
I'm looking at the game right now (and i blame Clay for the 3 runs), but if the offense is as good as you say they are, and the Sox don't give up anymore runs, then getting 4 runs with 8 innings left shouldn't be hard. Right now i see an issue.

Huh?

So you're saying it's ok for the rotation to consistently put the offence in a hole at -3 runs before they even get there first crack at the opposing pitcher? But it's on the offence to bail out the pitching night in and night out or it's there fault?

Now I've heard it all. I'll give you this though, the team is flawed and it's obvious. But the majority of the flaws are in the pitching. They outright suck.

Oh would you look at that, a 2 run jack by Fielder off of Buchholz. We'll put this one on the offence though if they don't come back.

papipapsmanny
06-26-2016, 05:22 PM
I'm looking at the game right now (and i blame Clay for the 3 runs), but if the offense is as good as you say they are, and the Sox don't give up anymore runs, then getting 4 runs with 8 innings left shouldn't be hard. Right now i see an issue.

Yes we should base everything off of what happens today... with out best hitter out.

Plus you all keep ignoring what I am saying. I am saying going after names like Lucroy and Cargo are counter productive. Those guys will not be cheap at all, and at best they bring us back to what we were. Huge offense with pitching holding the team back, and with less assets to get a pitcher.

I do like Valencia though. Playing over his head obviously but he is still a quality guy.

I'd trade Shaw, Espinoza, Devers, Owens, and Buchholz.

For Valencia, and Gray. Just put Valencia at 3B, and when everyone is back let Young/Swihart go for LF and have Holt spell everyone. That fixes the bench.

Gray if he is back on track slide behind Price, Wright at the 3, Porcello at the 4, E-Rod 5, and Kelly goes to the Pen and is SP depth.

I think trade can get it done. We keep Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, and Travis, and we still have Swihart so if we really feel for a need for a dominant RP (that is under control for a while) he can probably get us it, or if we think its possible he can still catch there is that as well.

So again my point is we shouldn't be going after big name guys for the offense it doesn't make any sense at this point imo

j-bay
06-26-2016, 05:35 PM
Huh?

So you're saying it's ok for the rotation to consistently put the offence in a hole at -3 runs before they even get there first crack at the opposing pitcher? But it's on the offence to bail out the pitching night in and night out or it's there fault?

Now I've heard it all. I'll give you this though, the team is flawed and it's obvious. But the majority of the flaws are in the pitching. They outright suck.

Oh would you look at that, a 2 run jack by Fielder off of Buchholz. We'll put this one on the offence though if they don't come back.

Yeah ok then we won't for this game. But had it stayed those 3 runs if you and papi say our offense is that good, 4 runs in 8 innings shouldn't be an issue. I'm not saying pitching is not an issue it is. Here is what i see. I see 5 great hitters(Papi, Pedroia, Bogey, Betts, JBJ). They can hit, bring in runs, and get on base. But then there is the rest of the "hit crew". They have not done well at all. I understand what you guys are trying to do. You guys want to put in all our resources for a brand new shiny TORP. Problem is we got a hitting problem and a bullpen issue. If we want to be good we need to spread things out evenly. Maybe make a trade where we get a starter, a hitter, and a pen piece. If we trade for just a starter then the ship is still sinking.

j-bay
06-26-2016, 05:40 PM
Yes we should base everything off of what happens today... with out best hitter out.

Plus you all keep ignoring what I am saying. I am saying going after names like Lucroy and Cargo are counter productive. Those guys will not be cheap at all, and at best they bring us back to what we were. Huge offense with pitching holding the team back, and with less assets to get a pitcher.

I do like Valencia though. Playing over his head obviously but he is still a quality guy.

I'd trade Shaw, Espinoza, Devers, Owens, and Buchholz.

For Valencia, and Gray. Just put Valencia at 3B, and when everyone is back let Young/Swihart go for LF and have Holt spell everyone. That fixes the bench.

Gray if he is back on track slide behind Price, Wright at the 3, Porcello at the 4, E-Rod 5, and Kelly goes to the Pen and is SP depth.

I think trade can get it done. We keep Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, and Travis, and we still have Swihart so if we really feel for a need for a dominant RP (that is under control for a while) he can probably get us it, or if we think its possible he can still catch there is that as well.

So again my point is we shouldn't be going after big name guys for the offense it doesn't make any sense at this point imo

And guess what Teheran and Gray will be even more expensive. This is a weak and dangerous market. It would be a fools game to trade this kind of talent. Believe me i like what i have seen from Moncada, AB, and Espinoza. Those guys are going to be good.

Bo Sox Fan
06-26-2016, 05:58 PM
Yeah ok then we won't for this game. But had it stayed those 3 runs if you and papi say our offense is that good, 4 runs in 8 innings shouldn't be an issue. I'm not saying pitching is not an issue it is. Here is what i see. I see 5 great hitters(Papi, Pedroia, Bogey, Betts, JBJ). They can hit, bring in runs, and get on base. But then there is the rest of the "hit crew". They have not done well at all. I understand what you guys are trying to do. You guys want to put in all our resources for a brand new shiny TORP. Problem is we got a hitting problem and a bullpen issue. If we want to be good we need to spread things out evenly. Maybe make a trade where we get a starter, a hitter, and a pen piece. If we trade for just a starter then the ship is still sinking.

No, the problem is it never stays at "3" ... It snowballs.

FTW, since when has 5 hitters not been enough? Every team that has ever won the World Series has had 4-6 trusty hitters, but more importantly an outstanding pitching staff to support the offence. This team has the offence, but it's supported by a car wreck of a pitching staff from the top of the rotation down to the last guy in the bullpen.

Can't expect the offence to put up crooked numbers every single night, that's not humanly possible. But the pitching can sure the **** help out a lot more than it has been. The pitching overall has been nothing but inconsistent hot garbage, and Buchholz is the poster child for it. He better be done with the Boston Red Sox after tonight.

j-bay
06-26-2016, 06:27 PM
No, the problem is it never stays at "3" ... It snowballs.

FTW, since when has 5 hitters not been enough? Every team that has ever won the World Series has had 4-6 trusty hitters, but more importantly an outstanding pitching staff to support the offence. This team has the offence, but it's supported by a car wreck of a pitching staff from the top of the rotation down to the last guy in the bullpen.

Can't expect the offence to put up crooked numbers every single night, that's not humanly possible. But the pitching can sure the **** help out a lot more than it has been. The pitching overall has been nothing but inconsistent hot garbage, and Buchholz is the poster child for it. He better be done with the Boston Red Sox after tonight.

The problem is besides the 5, the offense has struggled. I'm not saying we don't need one but the face is the supporting cast has really struggled. Hanley has, Travis had, Young was beginning so show signs of slowing down, Vaz hasn't been getting the job done, Holt has struggled, Swihart is good, but the rest suck. And it doesn't help when Farrell keeps on sitting Ortiz and Pedy.

j-bay
06-26-2016, 06:30 PM
At this point the ship might have sunk already. Might be too many holes. I don't think just one thing is going to save this season.

Soxtober040713
06-26-2016, 09:23 PM
Chris Archer Evan Longoria Alex Colome opinions. I know Archer and Longo are signed long term and it's in the division but Tampa is decimated. Send them. Huge haul of mixed specs. Guys we have no use for and projected studs. Something like Espinoza-Owens. Travis-Swihart. Dubon-Brentz. Shaw- Light. They get quality and quantity. We get our second Ace. Longoria moves to 3rd. Lineup looks like.

1. Betts RF
2. Pedroia 2B
3. Bogaerts SS
4. Ortiz DH
5. Longoria 3B
6. Ramirez 1B
7. Bradley CF
8. Holt / Young LF
9. Vazquez/ Leon C

1. Price
2. Archer
3. Wright
4. Porcello
5. Rodriguez

Buccholz
Kelly
Ross
Barnes
Tazawa
Uehara
Colome
Kimbrel

Soxfan85
06-26-2016, 10:37 PM
We are playing TB next who has lost 11 straight. We have great matchup. I want to see how we do those 3 games. They rank #21 in SP. & #14 in ER

Green_Monster
06-26-2016, 11:35 PM
Offense is not the problem. Once we're healthy next month, the bench is fine. Swihart, Holt, Leon/Hanigan, and Hernandez/Rutledge. That's a good bench.

j-bay
06-27-2016, 01:30 AM
Offense is not the problem. Once we're healthy next month, the bench is fine. Swihart, Holt, Leon/Hanigan, and Hernandez/Rutledge. That's a good bench.

Swihart-Good
Holt-Struggled, hope he improves
Leon-Hope he stays hot
Hanigan-Meh
Hernandez and Rutledge
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

RedSoxtober
06-27-2016, 10:16 AM
I'm not discounting it, I am saying your logic is backwards. Our horrible record when we score 4 runs or less is because of pitching, because our pitching rarely allows that many runs or less.. The offense could be a concern sure if you want me to focus on about 3.5 weeks of the season and completly ignore then other 2 months.

4ER or less in a game is below MLB average. Only a handful of teams with elite pitching staffs could sustain that kind of production on a consistent basis and still win.

I honestly think that you've been blinded by the early production. I think that early production has hooked many into thinking that this team is "special" and that it's worth selling any piece necessary to get a SP that will put them over the top. We do not need to ignore that production (to answer your question), but we do need to see it in context: there was a concern that we could not keep up that production that was pretty closely tied to an unsustainable .340+ BABIP and now that it's dropped to .309 they've become a much more common offense. The issue is not historic vs great but rather historic vs above average.

It's also not 2 months vs 3.5 weeks as you've tried to suggest; the overall offensive decline goes as far back as their series with KCR (5/17). That's notable because the KCR series began a run against teams that were not either struggling or below .500. The context then is not just a great BABIP leading to elite production, but unsustainable BABIP against weak pitching leading to offensive output that could not be sustained against teams with even a decent track record. It's also HALF of their season to date (38 games through 5/17, 37 games since).

Getting a great #2 (or #1B) is not going to fix the team. The cost of getting that great SP is, however, going to prevent you from addressing other needs without crippling the long-term.

As for Cargo and Lucroy, I've never brought them up. Others have mentioned them when I supported the need for an offensive boost but I have not mentioned a particular hitter. It might surprise you that I have only mentioned specific pitching targets (not Hill, perhaps Harvey or Gray) who have long term value but might be discounted due to uneven starts. On Aug 2, I will be disappointed if we have not addressed all of the above.

RedSoxtober
06-27-2016, 01:29 PM
Daniels was asked to about DD's comments to the effect that there is very little on the market.

“In this market, there’s not a lot of pitching, in general,” said Rangers GM Jon Daniels. “That dove-tails with the free agent market being as weak as it’s going to be. There just aren’t a lot of top guys who are scheduled to have their contract expire this year. We’ll see who ultimately comes available, but from our standpoint we have to get our guys healthy. We’re not going to have anybody than our own guys who are coming back.”

Sound familiar?

The lesson to be learned is right now there aren’t a lot of teams who are ready to move on from 2016, and those who are don’t have a whole lot to offer.weei.com

MG956
06-27-2016, 05:05 PM
4ER or less in a game is below MLB average. Only a handful of teams with elite pitching staffs could sustain that kind of production on a consistent basis and still win.

I honestly think that you've been blinded by the early production. I think that early production has hooked many into thinking that this team is "special" and that it's worth selling any piece necessary to get a SP that will put them over the top. We do not need to ignore that production (to answer your question), but we do need to see it in context: there was a concern that we could not keep up that production that was pretty closely tied to an unsustainable .340+ BABIP and now that it's dropped to .309 they've become a much more common offense. The issue is not historic vs great but rather historic vs above average.

It's also not 2 months vs 3.5 weeks as you've tried to suggest; the overall offensive decline goes as far back as their series with KCR (5/17). That's notable because the KCR series began a run against teams that were not either struggling or below .500. The context then is not just a great BABIP leading to elite production, but unsustainable BABIP against weak pitching leading to offensive output that could not be sustained against teams with even a decent track record. It's also HALF of their season to date (38 games through 5/17, 37 games since).

Getting a great #2 (or #1B) is not going to fix the team. The cost of getting that great SP is, however, going to prevent you from addressing other needs without crippling the long-term.

As for Cargo and Lucroy, I've never brought them up. Others have mentioned them when I supported the need for an offensive boost but I have not mentioned a particular hitter. It might surprise you that I have only mentioned specific pitching targets (not Hill, perhaps Harvey or Gray) who have long term value but might be discounted due to uneven starts. On Aug 2, I will be disappointed if we have not addressed all of the above.

It is so nice to have you back posting. Everyone on this thread that wants to overpay & rape our farm needs to read the bolded part, a couple times.

I also think it is nice that you are prepared to be disappointed Aug 2nd, because I'm actually afraid of the cost we would pay to substantially improve our chances of winning by bringing in new talent.

We have all sorts of talent either underperforming or on the DL, and we have a couple guys past their sell by date. I'm not willing to spend my way out of that at the expense of our future.

Luckily the guys in suits call the shots and right now we are selling seats.

Ewagner
06-27-2016, 05:21 PM
I'm shocked people are so hung up on not trading Espinoza. I would trade any minor league pitcher for Gray or Teheran. I believe Lester was the last pitcher the Sox drafted and became an effective SP for the Sox. I would be fine trading Moncada or Benintendi for Jose Fernandez but anyone outside of that I would keep them and trading the pitchers

j-bay
06-27-2016, 05:41 PM
I'm shocked people are so hung up on not trading Espinoza. I would trade any minor league pitcher for Gray or Teheran. I believe Lester was the last pitcher the Sox drafted and became an effective SP for the Sox. I would be fine trading Moncada or Benintendi for Jose Fernandez but anyone outside of that I would keep them and trading the pitchers

Gray maybe. It would still be a gamble though. Teheran nope. Not only would be trading for Teheran would be a mistake, but i think Espinoza will be better.
1.The Braves want one of Moncada or AB. Sorry no deal
2.Teheran is a flyball pitcher. That spells for diaster at Fenway.

Green_Monster
06-27-2016, 05:52 PM
Swihart-Good
Holt-Struggled, hope he improves
Leon-Hope he stays hot
Hanigan-Meh
Hernandez and Rutledge
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

Holt struggling was a result of the concussion. We've seen what he can do, he's fine.

Rutledge/Hernandez would be the 13th best hitters on the team, the literal last roster spot player(s). They don't need to be all-stars.

If I have to keep reading about how we need a bat I might puke. Under a month of non historic hitting and the sky is falling.

j-bay
06-27-2016, 05:55 PM
Holt struggling was a result of the concussion. We've seen what he can do, he's fine.

Rutledge/Hernandez would be the 13th best hitters on the team, the literal last roster spot player(s). They don't need to be all-stars.

If I have to keep reading about how we need a bat I might puke. A couple weeks of non historic like hitting and the sky is falling.

I mean i don't mind us struggling. I want to see some other guys step up besides the 5.

Green_Monster
06-27-2016, 06:00 PM
I mean i don't mind us struggling. I want to see some other guys step up besides the 5.

As do I, but players will struggle throughout the season and then bounce back.

Is the upgrade (over our current players) that people want to trade for worth in it terms of what we'll have to give up? Not a chance.

I'm all for acquiring a pitcher, but a bat? No.

j-bay
06-27-2016, 06:04 PM
Let me add to that i see a lot of lower guys get like 1 big hit in the game which resolves to nothing. After that they pretty much go 1-4. In a lot of games what our lower guys have failed to do is bring in runs. Most of the time they choke and are unable to bring in the runs or advance the runners. If we are going to stick with these guys Rutledge and Hernandez, then they need to work on advancing the runners in scoring postion. We have seen a lot of runners left in scoring postion.

Bo Sox Fan
06-27-2016, 07:53 PM
It won't cost the farm to shake things up and salvage the season.

Bring in:
SP Rich Hill (Oak)
SP Jeremy Helickson (Phi)
RP Arodys Vizcaino (Atl)

Push out:
SP E-Rodriguez (AAA)
SP Buchholz (trade)
SP Kelly (bullpen/trade)

Like for Christ sakes, the atrocity of this pitching staff never ends. Fire the pitching coach is right.

papipapsmanny
06-27-2016, 09:06 PM
Rich Hill is a terrible option. I want Gray, he is young and under control and has a track record. We are going to have to trade for an SP one way or the other. Unless our plan is to sit here and wait 3 years for Espinoza and Kopech to come to the MLB, because there are no FA's to go after.

Once again I think Shaw, Devers, Espinoza, Owens, Chavis, and buchholz (with some money sent) can get us Gray and Valencia.

If Gray can pitch like the 3-4 WAR pitcher that he was that would have a huge impact on this team. He would be impacting 20% of the rest of our games. If he pitches like he has the last two years before now he gives us the luxury of leaving E-rod in the 5 whole to figure it.

Either way a trade for someone like Gray is a need now will be a need for the next 2 years at least, until we get one.

j-bay
06-27-2016, 09:09 PM
Rich Hill is a terrible option. I want Gray, he is young and under control and has a track record. We are going to have to trade for an SP one way or the other. Unless our plan is to sit here and wait 3 years for Espinoza and Kopech to come to the MLB, because there are no FA's to go after.

Once again I think Shaw, Devers, Espinoza, Owens, Chavis, and buchholz (with some money sent) can get us Gray and Valencia.

If Gray can pitch like the 3-4 WAR pitcher that he was that would have a huge impact on this team. He would be impacting 20% of the rest of our games. If he pitches like he has the last two years before now he gives us the luxury of leaving E-rod in the 5 whole to figure it.

Either way a trade for someone like Gray is a need now will be a need for the next 2 years at least, until we get one.

Problem with Gray is I think the A's are waiting for the TD. I think they want to get a bidding war going for there best player. And by then it might be too late.

Rivera
06-27-2016, 09:15 PM
At this point I don't care for who. We need arms. Bad! Trade for someone! We need our staff to feel re juvinated

RedSoxtober
06-28-2016, 10:27 AM
At this snapshot in time, the dam is cracking for the 2016 Red Sox, with new leaks coming into view seemingly each day in a 9-14 June that has seen the team go from three games up in the division to four down. It’s hard to argue with suggestions such as that from Nick Cafardo that the team needs starting pitching help , at a time when its rotation features a 4.67 ERA (19th in the majors, 9th in the AL).

But the view of the necessity for starting help doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The bullpen may be short an arm or two. Christian Vazquez has struggled as a hitter and made a less-than-expected impact behind the plate (he’s graded as having been worth two runs above average in his framing of pitches – above average, but not exceptional). There’s a chance that the team will need another power bat in the middle of the lineup given the revolving door in left field along with the growing questions about David Ortiz ’s workload as he manages pain in his feet.

The Sox will need to choose what they reinforce. Their chips are finite, unless they decide that they’re so committed to the 2016 season that they’re willing to plunder multiple players from the top of the system – with teams all but certain to ask for Yoan Moncada, Andrew Benintendi, Anderson Espinoza, and/or Rafael Devers. There’s a limited second tier of prospects whom the Sox could offer in an effort to preserve their top-shelf inventory.

This is the dilemma that the Red Sox face, one made more challenging by a choice the team made in the offseason. In November, the Sox decided that they’d move quickly in the relief market, landing the top available arm on the market in Craig Kimbrel.

The inconsistency of Koji Uehara has made that move seem prescient. Still, it’s debatable whether the team was best served to pay a steep prospect cost or if it might have been better served going the free-agent route with pitchers like Joakim Soria and/or Darren O’Day.

In dealing outfielder Manuel Margot, shortstop Javier Guerra, lefthander Logan Allen, and utility man Carlos Asuaje to San Diego, the Sox limited their in-season dealmaking flexibility. Guerra has struggled in San Diego’s system – his strikeout problems suggest that the Sox may have sold high on him – but Margot would represent a very attractive, close-to-the-majors chip right now. Asuaje has been even better in Triple A, and so his value has gone up since he joined the Padres organization. Allen is on the DL, but prior to that, he likewise seemed to validate the view of his potential as a future starter.Speier

BoSox47
06-28-2016, 10:49 AM
Right now I am not giving up the farm for Sonny Gray.

Last 30 starts for Sonny:

4.14 ERA 4.03 xFIP 1.31 WHIP 3.06 BB/9

Not giving away the farm for a guy who has been mediocre in his last 30 starts. Nevermind the fact he plays in Oakland and his stats would be worse in Fenway.

RedSoxtober
06-28-2016, 02:01 PM
Interesting find. While I'm also unsure of Gray, it sounds a little like slicing the data. It's worth being aware of since the rough SEP-15 (6.84ERA, 1.785WHIP) could be part of the trend that I mentioned being troubling. It's definitely worth noting that Aug/Sep his ERA has been 3.83 (2014) and 4.04 (2015). It goes without saying that a 4.00 ERA would be a Godsend in the current rotation but it's not the lockdown stuff that I believe most proponents think they're buying. As a mid-year acquisition, his impact on this year's race may not be what some assume that it would be.

cocossox
06-28-2016, 02:45 PM
Chris Archer Evan Longoria Alex Colome opinions. I know Archer and Longo are signed long term and it's in the division but Tampa is decimated. Send them. Huge haul of mixed specs. Guys we have no use for and projected studs. Something like Espinoza-Owens. Travis-Swihart. Dubon-Brentz. Shaw- Light. They get quality and quantity. We get our second Ace. Longoria moves to 3rd. Lineup looks like.

1. Betts RF
2. Pedroia 2B
3. Bogaerts SS
4. Ortiz DH
5. Longoria 3B
6. Ramirez 1B
7. Bradley CF
8. Holt / Young LF
9. Vazquez/ Leon C

1. Price
2. Archer
3. Wright
4. Porcello
5. Rodriguez

Buccholz
Kelly
Ross
Barnes
Tazawa
Uehara
Colome
KimbrelI would love that but TB wouldn't trade and if they did it would be too costly.

Ewagner
06-28-2016, 03:17 PM
Once again I think Shaw, Devers, Espinoza, Owens, Chavis, and buchholz (with some money sent) can get us Gray and Valencia.


I would love this trade if you could swap out Swihart and Devers. I think Owens ends up in Oakland some how. He seems like the type of guy Oakland could turn around. I sort of think the same thing with Buchholz. Clay needs a more relaxed environment. The reason I would want to keep Devers is you can keep Valencia for two years when Devers should be ready. Chavis is just blocked so better to trade him for something you need.

papipapsmanny
06-28-2016, 07:17 PM
I would love this trade if you could swap out Swihart and Devers. I think Owens ends up in Oakland some how. He seems like the type of guy Oakland could turn around. I sort of think the same thing with Buchholz. Clay needs a more relaxed environment. The reason I would want to keep Devers is you can keep Valencia for two years when Devers should be ready. Chavis is just blocked so better to trade him for something you need.

Trade doesn't happen without Devers. Devers is blocked too (and I have never been as high on him as a lot of other people). Moncada is going to be playing 3B soon.


As for Soxtober's article about trading for Kimbrel in the manner we did, I agree. We clearly overpaid for him DD was reckless. I know people illogically argued that we don't know how the prospects would turn out, which wasn't even the point. The point was we could have gotten the same for less. I am sure if you offered the same deal minus Margot and put Owens instead it would have gotten done (and that still would have bad value on our end at the time).

Bo Sox Fan
06-28-2016, 07:38 PM
I like the versatility of Moncada in not only playing 2B, but eventually 3B and/or LF.

If we plan to target a Josh Reddick this winter (asking for 4 years, $17 mil/per reports) which is actually fairly reasonable, then why not move Benintendi? Add Devers and there's absolutely no reason we can't bring in a cost controlled co-ace TORP to help save this season and join our young core offence moving forward for the next handful of years.

This is all of course, contingent on the plans of the upcoming offseason if we were to land Reddick at all costs to add another athletic, left handed bat to the lineup after Papi retires.

papipapsmanny
06-28-2016, 07:49 PM
No. We need to keep Benintendi, Moncada, and one of Kopech/Espinoza.

Bo Sox Fan
06-28-2016, 08:07 PM
No. We need to keep Benintendi, Moncada, and one of Kopech/Espinoza.

Must be a wizard.

j-bay
06-28-2016, 08:21 PM
I like the versatility of Moncada in not only playing 2B, but eventually 3B and/or LF.

If we plan to target a Josh Reddick this winter (asking for 4 years, $17 mil/per reports) which is actually fairly reasonable, then why not move Benintendi? Add Devers and there's absolutely no reason we can't bring in a cost controlled co-ace TORP to help save this season and join our young core offence moving forward for the next handful of years.

This is all of course, contingent on the plans of the upcoming offseason if we were to land Reddick at all costs to add another athletic, left handed bat to the lineup after Papi retires.

AB in my opinion will be better than Reddick. The 4 you keep are Moncada, Benintendi, Espinoza, and if he signs Groome. You trade any of those guys in a weak market just for a shot at the playoffs it would be a stupid move.

Bo Sox Fan
06-28-2016, 08:33 PM
AB in my opinion will be better than Reddick. The 4 you keep are Moncada, Benintendi, Espinoza, and if he signs Groome. You trade any of those guys in a weak market just for a shot at the playoffs it would be a stupid move.

This coming from the guy/girl who wants to acquire a bat when the offence continues to put up crooked numbers. That would be a stupid move, and a waste of assets.

j-bay
06-28-2016, 08:46 PM
This coming from the guy/girl who wants to acquire a bat when the offence continues to put up crooked numbers. That would be a stupid move, and a waste of assets.

Yeah and the last thing i want to hear around here is the *****ing when Benintendi becomes an all stars. If you read the reports you would know Benintendi is the hottest prospect in baseball, has been shooting up the rankings, and has performed great in every level he has played.

j-bay
06-28-2016, 09:06 PM
This coming from the guy/girl who wants to acquire a bat when the offence continues to put up crooked numbers. That would be a stupid move, and a waste of assets.
.

RedSoxtober
06-28-2016, 10:57 PM
This coming from the guy/girl who wants to acquire a bat when the offence continues to put up crooked numbers. That would be a stupid move, and a waste of assets.

This coming from the person who refuses to acknowledge that the "offence [sic] continues to put up cooked numbers" against bad teams and weak pitching.

Did you happen to notice that we have scored 3ER or less in 6 of the last 10 games? 2ER or less in 5 of 10? In the others we've "cooked" Blake Snell, Nick Martinez (5.54ERA), James Shield (ERA down from 21.81 to 9.59 in the AL thanks to the Sox), and Adrian Sampson (7.71ER). In case you didn't notice, we actually UNDERperformed against most of those horrible starters. But who cares? We put up crooked numbers in 4/10 games and that makes our offense appear great at the macro level.

At the end of the day it's clear that you have NEVER understood the argument. The offense is currently good but not great. There are weaknesses that need to be addressed... not to the exclusion of the pitching but in concert with it.

We need a 2/3 type SP, a 7th/8th inning guy, AND a LHB with power. What should be even more obvious if you're paying attention is that ALL of these are LONG TERM issues.

SP: No way Clay gets renewed. EdRo hasn't gotten back on track. Owens is trending in the wrong direction, Elias hasn't played outside the AL West, Johnson is still struggling, ... We will need a SP with mid-rotation stuff beyond the present.

RP: Koji and Taz won't be back next year. At least one high leverage MR or SU will be needed to compliment Smith. Maybe Workman comes back to help or Barnes/Hembree step forward. RPs are mercurial so having a proven arm would be nice.

LHB: Has anyone realized that Papi is retiring? I've heard a rumor or two. Maybe it'd be helpful to find another LHB to help put up "cooked" numbers after 2016 too. Nah, that's stupid. Win now. **** the future.

j-bay
06-28-2016, 11:22 PM
This coming from the person who refuses to acknowledge that the "offence [sic] continues to put up cooked numbers" against bad teams and weak pitching.

Did you happen to notice that we have scored 3ER or less in 6 of the last 10 games? 2ER or less in 5 of 10? In the others we've "cooked" Blake Snell, Nick Martinez (5.54ERA), James Shield (ERA down from 21.81 to 9.59 in the AL thanks to the Sox), and Adrian Sampson (7.71ER). In case you didn't notice, we actually UNDERperformed against most of those horrible starters. But who cares? We put up crooked numbers in 4/10 games and that makes our offense appear great at the macro level.

At the end of the day it's clear that you have NEVER understood the argument. The offense is currently good but not great. There are weaknesses that need to be addressed... not to the exclusion of the pitching but in concert with it.

We need a 2/3 type SP, a 7th/8th inning guy, AND a LHB with power. What should be even more obvious if you're paying attention is that ALL of these are LONG TERM issues.

SP: No way Clay gets renewed. EdRo hasn't gotten back on track. Owens is trending in the wrong direction, Elias hasn't played outside the AL West, Johnson is still struggling, ... We will need a SP with mid-rotation stuff beyond the present.

RP: Koji and Taz won't be back next year. At least one high leverage MR or SU will be needed to compliment Smith. Maybe Workman comes back to help or Barnes/Hembree step forward. RPs are mercurial so having a proven arm would be nice.

LHB: Has anyone realized that Papi is retiring? I've heard a rumor or two. Maybe it'd be helpful to find another LHB to help put up "cooked" numbers after 2016 too. Nah, that's stupid. Win now. **** the future.

This is the main point i'm trying to prove. No body wants our broken players. They want to raid our talent. And you guys want to to trade it all away for a SHOT, key word a SHOT at the playoffs. This is a really weak market. Its dangerous because when people arn't selling they got you in a trap.

Bo Sox Fan
06-28-2016, 11:59 PM
This coming from the person who refuses to acknowledge that the "offence [sic] continues to put up cooked numbers" against bad teams and weak pitching.

Did you happen to notice that we have scored 3ER or less in 6 of the last 10 games? 2ER or less in 5 of 10? In the others we've "cooked" Blake Snell, Nick Martinez (5.54ERA), James Shield (ERA down from 21.81 to 9.59 in the AL thanks to the Sox), and Adrian Sampson (7.71ER). In case you didn't notice, we actually UNDERperformed against most of those horrible starters. But who cares? We put up crooked numbers in 4/10 games and that makes our offense appear great at the macro level.

At the end of the day it's clear that you have NEVER understood the argument. The offense is currently good but not great. There are weaknesses that need to be addressed... not to the exclusion of the pitching but in concert with it.

We need a 2/3 type SP, a 7th/8th inning guy, AND a LHB with power. What should be even more obvious if you're paying attention is that ALL of these are LONG TERM issues.

SP: No way Clay gets renewed. EdRo hasn't gotten back on track. Owens is trending in the wrong direction, Elias hasn't played outside the AL West, Johnson is still struggling, ... We will need a SP with mid-rotation stuff beyond the present.

RP: Koji and Taz won't be back next year. At least one high leverage MR or SU will be needed to compliment Smith. Maybe Workman comes back to help or Barnes/Hembree step forward. RPs are mercurial so having a proven arm would be nice.

LHB: Has anyone realized that Papi is retiring? I've heard a rumor or two. Maybe it'd be helpful to find another LHB to help put up "cooked" numbers after 2016 too. Nah, that's stupid. Win now. **** the future.

Yah I know our weaknesses. I guess you don't read my posts thoroughly enough when I press for Gray and Doolittle every odd day, you know, 2 of the 3 needs you mention here that I've already addressed but you seemed to miss.

Why does the offence have to be great instead of good to win now? Since when has Brock Holt been incapable of platooning in left field? He's a left handed bat and he keeps the line rolling as good as anyone on the roster. But you apparently want an All-Star at every position.

Atleast Dombrowski, the guy that is actually in charge is on my side by publicly stating he's looking for rotation and pen help first and foremost, exactly what I've been preaching. I see your beef with the offence, but it's more of a luxury to add a bat (another log on the fire to a red hot offence) where pitching is the actual, absolute NEED.

Green_Monster
06-29-2016, 09:58 AM
The people who'd like to trade for a LHH with power, what position would you be targeting? I can't imagine it's an OF'er, because they'd receive no playing time with Betts, JBJ, Young, Swihart and Holt all in the mix.

We really have one open bench spot at most. The one held by Marco Hernandez currently. He's not a bad player, and I'm personally fine with sticking with him. I don't believe the upgrade we'd trade for would be worth it considering the value we'd have to give up. Hernandez barely plays, who's playing time would this bat take? Even when guys need a day off, Holt would almost certainly be the first one to replace them.

RedSoxtober
06-29-2016, 10:46 AM
Yah I know our weaknesses. I guess you don't read my posts thoroughly enough when I press for Gray and Doolittle every odd day, you know, 2 of the 3 needs you mention here that I've already addressed but you seemed to miss.
I have not missed that at all. That's why I regularly point out that I also see those as a need. There are points of agreement. What irks me is that while we ALL agree on the SP/RP needs, you continually mock the needs of the lineup as if those of us who advocate a balanced approach think that's the only thing that needs to be addressed.


Why does the offence have to be great instead of good to win now? Since when has Brock Holt been incapable of platooning in left field? He's a left handed bat and he keeps the line rolling as good as anyone on the roster. But you apparently want an All-Star at every position.
The offense does not need to be great. However, the sense that we should deal for a big time pitcher (1A/1B/2A => like your primary target Gray) has generally been predicated on the assumption that our offense IS great. It's only "great" against lousy teams and it's been average at best against good teams or decent teams with good pitching.

I have already answered for Holt but I'll try again. Simply put, he's been a first-half performer throughout his MLB career -- .297/.362/.417 vs .241/.294/.306. Even if his concussion was THE factor in dragging down his 2016 line to .239/.310/.354, his track record suggests that he may not improve his below-replacement level line much when he returns. We've also got to recognize that concussions are very tricky things and the impact could go on for a while (he's still suffering from some symptoms even while playing through them at PAW).

Swihart could/would be a bigger help but he will be out much longer. Last I heard he was hoping to begin some baseball activities soon but that could simply be throwing while in a boot. Missing 6-8 weeks essentially puts him back to ST form so I won't hang my hat on him making much impact until fairly late in the season (if then).


Atleast Dombrowski, the guy that is actually in charge is on my side by publicly stating he's looking for rotation and pen help first and foremost, exactly what I've been preaching. I see your beef with the offence, but it's more of a luxury to add a bat (another log on the fire to a red hot offence) where pitching is the actual, absolute NEED.
If DD answers the question "Are you looking for a starting pitcher" or "Is the rotation an area of concern" with a positive and explains why, does that mean that he's "on your side"? Or simply that he agrees that it's an area of concern? I mean I agree that SP is an area of concern but you certainly wouldn't characterize me that way.

Dismissing the position player deficiencies as "a luxury" fails to see the bigger picture. For 6 weeks we raked and during those six weeks we generally faced mediocre teams with so-so defense and poor pitching which played into unusually high BABIP which in turn played into tremendous offensive output. For the last 6 weeks we have faced teams with records of .500 or better with stronger pitching staffs, our BABIP has dropped by 10% to a more typical number (.309), and our offensive output has dropped by almost 30% to a similarly barely above average level.


Ortiz, easily our most important hitter, needs (more) regular maintenance days primarily because of his heels and his otherworldly stats are starting to take a hit because the lineup behind him has been weak enough that he can now be pitched around (7 of his league-leading IBB have come in the last 6 weeks).
Bogaerts is exhausted; the recent spate of errors in the field reflect it most obviously but it's starting to affect him at the plate as well (last 28 days: .333/.390/.458; last 14 days: .265/.333/.347; last 7 days: .227/.292/.227).
JBJ is proving to be as streaky as last year suggested (.381/.474/.701 in May but .226/.337/.488 in June).
Mookie has been very steady at the top of the order but he's surprisingly being owned by LHP (.200/.220/.382).
HanRam has had a great week to raise his June numbers to .237/.333/.409. His offense is crap for a 1B but he's at least one guy who's hitting better on the road.
Shaw, following HanRam's lead, had a good week starting two weeks ago that raised him to a lofty .225/.289/.325 for the month of June. He just hit his first HR in 100 PA. His numbers have declined steadily each month in MLB suggesting they've figured him out.


I don't personally view bolstering these deficiencies a "luxury" for a team trending towards league-average offensive output.

RedSoxtober
06-29-2016, 10:58 AM
here are five relievers the Red Sox could target.

Arodys Vizcaino, RHP, Braves

The 25-year-old right-hander is having a solid season with a 1-2 record and a 1.93 ERA to go along with 10 saves. He also has 45 strikeouts in 32 2/3 innings. Vizcaino may demand more than just a mid-level prospect with him being arbitration eligible after this season and not a free agent until 2020. With the Braves being sellers, they could make a big splash by combining both Vizcaino and starter Julio Teheran in the same deal, which likely would yield a big return and in the Red Sox’ case one of Yoan Moncada or Andrew Benintendi.

Sean Doolittle, LHP, Athletics

With Robbie Ross Jr. and Tommy Layne as the only lefties in the bullpen, the team could certainly look to improve that area of the bullpen and the A’s seem willing to deal Doolittle. In 35 games this season, he is 2-2 with a 2.93 ERA and has 35 strikeouts in 30 2/3 innings. He has been dominant against left-handers, holding them to a .152 batting average. He is signed through 2018 with team options for 2019 and 2020, so he may too take more than just a mid-level prospect to get.

Fernando Abad, LHP, Twins

Minnesota will certainly be sellers and Abad is the best reliever they have to offer. The left-hander is 1-1 with a 2.16 ERA in 30 games. He may just be a lefty specialist as they are batting just .143 with two extra-base hits against him this year, but right-handers are batting .269. The Red Sox could certainly use another lefty in their bullpen, but they would need to add more than just Abad.

Fernando Rodney, RHP, Padres

The 39-year-old has played for six teams in his 14-year career and a seventh team may come into play in a few weeks as the Padres will likely be looking to trade their closer. In 28 appearances he has 24 saves and a 0.31 ERA. If he gets dealt, he likely will slide into a setup role with his new team. He could be a great addition to the Red Sox’ bullpen, but only if the price is right because the team certainly wouldn’t want to overpay for a 39-year-old rental.

Daniel Hudson, RHP, Diamondbacks

Hudson isn’t the best reliever on the market, but he along with another pitcher could really help boost the bullpen. He’s 1-1 with a 3.38 ERA in 32 appearances this season. This is his seventh year in the league, so the right-hander has a great deal of experience. It certainly wouldn’t take much for the Sox to acquire him, especially with being a free agent after this year, so he may be worth a shot.weei.com

RedSoxtober
06-29-2016, 10:59 AM
here are five players the Red Sox could potentially trade for before the July 31 deadline.

Julio Teheran, RHP, Braves

The right-hander’s name has come up more than any other player of late. Despite a 3-7 record, he has a 2.46 ERA and in his last 11 starts has an ERA of just 1.71. He’s 25 years old and under team control until the end of the 2020 season. He’s arguably the best pitcher who will be made available across the league, which means the Braves will certainly get more than they should in return for him. For the Red Sox, it becomes a question of whether or not they would be willing to give up Moncada or Benintendi to get him.

Sonny Gray, RHP, Athletics

With the way the Athletics are playing, it’s likely they are now shifting their focus towards the future and if they really wanted to make a big impact on that, they would deal Gray as that would yield them the most in return. Gray did miss some time this year with a strained right trapezius, but has seemed to turn things around after a rough start as he has a 3.23 ERA in his last five starts. Overall, for the year the 26-year-old is 3-6 with a 5.03 ERA. He too is under contract until the end of the 2020 season.

Rich Hill, LHP, Athletics

The Red Sox are very familiar with Hill as the 36-year-old went 2-1 with a 1.55 ERA in four starts with the team at the end of last season, which ultimately earned him a one-year, $6 million deal from the Athletics for this season. With him being a free agent after this season and currently working his way back from a groin strain, he won’t get as close to a return as Gray would. For the Red Sox, if they were to get Hill, they would likely need to acquire another starter as well because Hill likely wouldn’t be a huge difference maker.

Jeremy Hellickson, RHP, Phillies

The Phillies are struggling of late and with their eyes set on the future, they would certainly be all ears for a trade involving prospects. Hellickson wouldn’t be a huge difference maker for the Red Sox — 5-6, 4.23 ERA this season — but he is an innings eater, which is something the team desperately needs right now. They would need to get someone else to go along with the righty to fully improve the rotation, but it wouldn’t take much to get him — perhaps a mid-level prospect or two. The 29-year-old has extensive experience pitching in the AL East as he spent his first five years in the majors with the Rays.

Chris Sale, LHP, White Sox

This one is a bit of a long-shot, especially with White Sox general manager Rick Hahn saying his ace would not be dealt, but if the White Sox continue to trend downwards like they have of late, maybe it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to dangle Sale. The Red Sox certainly have the prospects to get the White Sox’ attention as Benintendi or Moncada would have to be involved in the deal. Sale would be one of the few players many would be OK with dealing away one of those two players for because a proven ace who is 27 years old would be the return. It’s also worth noting Sale’s contract would make him under the Red Sox’ control until the end of the 2019 season, making him even more valuable.weei.com

Green_Monster
06-29-2016, 11:07 AM
Who do you guys think will get the call in place of Rodriguez? I'd like to see Wilkerson given a chance. He's not on the 40-man roster so we have to waive someone like Sean Coyle.

RedSoxtober
06-29-2016, 02:19 PM
I expect that the Sox will use tomorrow's off day to their advantage and delay the decision as long as they can reasonably delay it. As a result, the mystery starter will make only one start during the Rays series closing the first half. That in turn leaves two possibilities. One option is that EdRo gets his crap together in a couple of rehab starts and comes back to make that delayed start (with the ASG break they might be willing to take a short outing). This is unlikely but possible.

The second option is probably Wilkerson who is the only PAW SP currently pitching well enough to merit a look. If this happens, I expect they'll tell Wilkerson that he's going back to PAW after the game so he can go out and have fun. They'll hope that EdRo can come back shortly after the ASG (he could have as many as 4 starts at PAW if he's skipped). They'll also shoot for a SP via trade and could possibly have one in time for the start after the ASG.

MG956
06-29-2016, 04:29 PM
Instead of splitting the responses between what do we need more/most, I think we should split them between anything we can do at this point will or will not make a difference.

Green_Monster
06-29-2016, 04:37 PM
I expect that the Sox will use tomorrow's off day to their advantage and delay the decision as long as they can reasonably delay it. As a result, the mystery starter will make only one start during the Rays series closing the first half. That in turn leaves two possibilities. One option is that EdRo gets his crap together in a couple of rehab starts and comes back to make that delayed start (with the ASG break they might be willing to take a short outing). This is unlikely but possible.

The second option is probably Wilkerson who is the only PAW SP currently pitching well enough to merit a look. If this happens, I expect they'll tell Wilkerson that he's going back to PAW after the game so he can go out and have fun. They'll hope that EdRo can come back shortly after the ASG (he could have as many as 4 starts at PAW if he's skipped). They'll also shoot for a SP via trade and could possibly have one in time for the start after the ASG.

I thought they'd do that too but Farrell said the 5th starter will pitch Sunday to give the other starters an extra day of rest.

Soxtober040713
06-29-2016, 08:35 PM
I hate to say it. But this current team is done. Farrell needs to be gone and I'm a Ferrell fan. Willis gone. Hanley and a decent prospect. Maybe Owens. For what ever they can get. Package. Shaw Swihart Devers and another decent spec for a co ace. Because there is nothing available in FA this year. dont resign Koji or Taz next year. It's TIME to rebuild around Bogey Betts Bradley Price and Kimbrel. Let Lovello finish the year see what he does. Id absolutely love to see Pedro as the pitching coach and Varitek as manager. I repeat this team as is will be lucky to make the 1 game wild card playoff. I'm beyond disgusted with how this year has played out.

papipapsmanny
06-30-2016, 06:09 PM
Devers, Espinoza, Shaw, Chavis, Owens, and Buchholz For Gray and Valencia

Johnson, Dubon, and Light for Vizcaino? I don't know I hate trading big prospects for relievers, but don't mind trading multiple decent level specs for one.

Price
Gray
Wright
Porcello
E-Rod/Kelly

Betts
Pedroia
Bogaerts
Ortiz
Hanley
JBJ
Valencia
Swihart/Young/Holt (When we get them back
Vazquez/Hanigan

Tazawa
Koji
Vizcaino
Kimbrell


Moncada
Benintendi
Kopech
Travis

Remain here

j-bay
06-30-2016, 06:39 PM
Devers, Espinoza, Shaw, Chavis, Owens, and Buchholz For Gray and Valencia

Johnson, Dubon, and Light for Vizcaino? I don't know I hate trading big prospects for relievers, but don't mind trading multiple decent level specs for one.

Price
Gray
Wright
Porcello
E-Rod/Kelly

Betts
Pedroia
Bogaerts
Ortiz
Hanley
JBJ
Valencia
Swihart/Young/Holt (When we get them back
Vazquez/Hanigan

Tazawa
Koji
Vizcaino
Kimbrell


Moncada
Benintendi
Kopech
Travis

Remain here

Replace Kopech with Espinoza. I'm telling you Espinoza will be special.

RedSoxtober
07-01-2016, 09:55 AM
Johnson, Dubon, and Light for Vizcaino? I don't know I hate trading big prospects for relievers, but don't mind trading multiple decent level specs for one.
I'm not so hot on dealing Espinoza for Gray at this point because of my reservations on Sonny boy. Maybe that will change over the next four weeks. That said, I doubt that Johnson can headline anything until he's worked through his anxiety issues and gotten back on the field (with significantly better results than he had through mid-May).


Replace Kopech with Espinoza. I'm telling you Espinoza will be special.
While I tend to agree, it always strikes me as off base when someone who has never seen a prospect in person assures me of anything. Hedging your bets a little with "from all that I've read", "the scouting reports suggest", "all signs point toward" or something along those lines will help your writing as you move forward (assuming your goal still is what it was when you started posting). Even when you've seen the kid, softening the statement with something like "from what I have seen" gives you some lateral -- you could have seen great or poor performance(s).

I've been bitten by this. I wasn't overly impressed with Betts when he came through G'ville. He was above average at the plate but he was also **** in the field. Fortunately, he was poor at 2B late in the longest season of his life. It turned out that the majority of the times that I'd seen him he was fatigued and the team was playing pretty poorly (probably contributing to a lack of focus -- you couldn't be focused if a DP flip hits you in the chest and you fail to come up with it). On the flip side, I was way too high on Cecchini. I saw him make several plays ranging into foul territory at 3B and throwing the runner out. I was misled into thinking that he could field his position at least enough to get his bat to Fenway but neither his glove NOR his bat were MLB capable (yet).

RedSoxtober
07-01-2016, 10:06 AM
The Red Sox have gone 17 consecutive games without scoring in the first inning. They have not scored in the first inning since June 11 against the Twins at Target Field. The last time the Sox scored in the first inning at home was on June 3. Despite the drought, the Red Sox lead the American League with 60 runs in the first inning . . . Wednesday was the third time this season the Sox have been shut out, the first time since April 19 Boston Globe

Shared this primarily to highlight the macro vs micro argument that I've been making. On the macro side, it sounds awesome that we've scored the most runs in the first inning of any team in MLB. On the micro side, not scoring in the first inning for two weeks (or almost a month at home!) is alarming and indicates that something needs to be addressed. Not being shut out very often is a good thing, but an offense that is supposedly firing on all cylinders getting shut out while also putting up an unusual number of 1s and 2s in the past few weeks reinforces the idea that something needs to be fixed.

Maybe the fix is more regular rest for some guys. More individual time with Chili and Victor. Getting a stronger visionary/disciplinarian to lead the crew. Or, yes, even getting a bat to address the declining production from the end of the batting order. If you see the results only at the macro level you're prone to overlooking the trends until it's too late. For example, this is perhaps why Bill James is generally slow to identify decline in players and how we ended up in big money contracts with Sandoval and HanRam.

j-bay
07-01-2016, 10:54 AM
I'm not so hot on dealing Espinoza for Gray at this point because of my reservations on Sonny boy. Maybe that will change over the next four weeks. That said, I doubt that Johnson can headline anything until he's worked through his anxiety issues and gotten back on the field (with significantly better results than he had through mid-May).


While I tend to agree, it always strikes me as off base when someone who has never seen a prospect in person assures me of anything. Hedging your bets a little with "from all that I've read", "the scouting reports suggest", "all signs point toward" or something along those lines will help your writing as you move forward (assuming your goal still is what it was when you started posting). Even when you've seen the kid, softening the statement with something like "from what I have seen" gives you some lateral -- you could have seen great or poor performance(s).

I've been bitten by this. I wasn't overly impressed with Betts when he came through G'ville. He was above average at the plate but he was also **** in the field. Fortunately, he was poor at 2B late in the longest season of his life. It turned out that the majority of the times that I'd seen him he was fatigued and the team was playing pretty poorly (probably contributing to a lack of focus -- you couldn't be focused if a DP flip hits you in the chest and you fail to come up with it). On the flip side, I was way too high on Cecchini. I saw him make several plays ranging into foul territory at 3B and throwing the runner out. I was misled into thinking that he could field his position at least enough to get his bat to Fenway but neither his glove NOR his bat were MLB capable (yet).

Yeah i've only read. But i like what i'm hearing. The kid in a lot of people's eyes here don't see anything special with this kid yet. The guy is only 18. He is going to grow, get stronger, and get better.

RedSoxtober
07-01-2016, 03:34 PM
Do very good teams have very bad months?

That question hovers over a 2016 Red Sox team that concluded June with a woeful 10-16 mark that turned a three-game lead in the American League East into a whopping five-game deficit, thanks in no small part to Baltimore’s 19-9 rampage through the last turn of the calendar. A team that steamrolled opponents for two months got flattened like a pancake over the most recent one, raising questions, as Christopher Gasper writes, about who the identity of the “real” Red Sox.

A month, of course, represents a fraction of the season. Yet it’s also a long enough period that it can’t be dismissed as a brief struggle, raising the simple question: Do World Series winners go through stretches that are as poor as the one that the Red Sox just concluded?

A look at the last 16 World Series winners, from 2000-15, suggests that teams that win championships do indeed endure a down month. Of those last 16 champions, just three made it through the season without a single sub-.500 month.

The worst of the best
The worst month for World Series Winners since 2000
Year World Series winner Worst Month Record Multiple sub-.500 months?
2015 Royals September 11-17 (.393)
2014 Giants June 10-16 (.385) Y
2013 Red Sox May 15-15 (.500)
2012 Giants July 12-12 (.500)
2011 Cardinals June 11-15 (.423)
2010 Giants August 13-15 (.464)
2009 Yankees April 12-10 (.545)
2008 Phillies June 12-14 (.462)
2007 Red Sox June 13-14 (.481)
2006 Cardinals June 9-16 (.360) Y
2005 White Sox August 12-16 (.429)
2004 Red Sox June 11-14 (.440)
2003 Marlins May 12-16 (.429)
2002 Angels April 11-13 (.458)
2001 Diamondbacks July 11-15 (.423)
2000 Yankees June 10-15 (.400) YSpeier

RedSoxtober
07-01-2016, 03:37 PM
Yeah i've only read. But i like what i'm hearing. The kid in a lot of people's eyes here don't see anything special with this kid yet. The guy is only 18. He is going to grow, get stronger, and get better.

Please don't take what I said as a dig at you. I am honestly trying to give you a tip about your writing style.

I happen to agree with you about Espinoza though my chances to see him have been minimal. He has great stuff and it's hard to believe that he's only 18. One of the things that stands out the most is simply his presence on the mound. He commands a game in a way that I honestly do not believe that can be taught. I'd do everything that I could to keep him in the system -- dealing Kopech if pitching of that caliber were required without thinking twice.

soxer04
07-02-2016, 12:50 PM
I would have three minor league untouchables Moncada, Beni and Espi and I wouldn't go after Gray. The Oakland ballpark makes the pitchers look better than they are.

**What do you think of moving ERod for this year to the bullpen? Farrell doesn't use Ross much so Ross is sort of a waste and therefore we really don't use lefties.

*** I wouldn't go desperate this year trying to win.

****What is the projected luxury tax numbers for next season?

soxer04
07-02-2016, 01:08 PM
I like the versatility of Moncada in not only playing 2B, but eventually 3B and/or LF.

If we plan to target a Josh Reddick this winter (asking for 4 years, $17 mil/per reports) which is actually fairly reasonable, then why not move Benintendi? Add Devers and there's absolutely no reason we can't bring in a cost controlled co-ace TORP to help save this season and join our young core offence moving forward for the next handful of years.

This is all of course, contingent on the plans of the upcoming offseason if we were to land Reddick at all costs to add another athletic, left handed bat to the lineup after Papi retires.


Where did you hear Riddick would only take $4-5m per year for 4? He is making $6.5m right now and he's having a good year in a pitcher's ballpark. Unless he will make a lot in year 1 and 2 then drastically drop in year 3 and 4? Or no one will give him 3 or 4 year deal?

Why would you want to trade this "next-year-30-year-old" for Beni whom may very well be in the majors next year with good probabilities of being a multi-year all-star that will be cost controlled for many years?

The Allen
07-02-2016, 01:12 PM
Where did you hear Riddick would only take $4-5m per year for 4? He is making $6.5m right now and he's having a good year in a pitcher's ballpark. Unless he will make a lot in year 1 and 2 then drastically drop in year 3 and 4? Or no one will give him 3 or 4 year deal?

Why would you want to trade this "next-year-30-year-old" for Beni whom may very well be in the majors next year with good probabilities of being a multi-year all-star that will be cost controlled for many years?
Think that means 17 million per year.

soxer04
07-02-2016, 01:38 PM
Thank you Allen my mistake. I misread and thought he said 4 years for $17,m.

Bo Sox Fan
07-02-2016, 01:45 PM
Where did you hear Riddick would only take $4-5m per year for 4? He is making $6.5m right now and he's having a good year in a pitcher's ballpark. Unless he will make a lot in year 1 and 2 then drastically drop in year 3 and 4? Or no one will give him 3 or 4 year deal?

Why would you want to trade this "next-year-30-year-old" for Beni whom may very well be in the majors next year with good probabilities of being a multi-year all-star that will be cost controlled for many years?

Not sure how you get $4-5 million when I said 4 years - $17 mil/per.

I'm actually shying away from dealing Benintendi now, but we have to do something to improve our pitching otherwise what is this all for? We're just gonna keep spinning our wheels and pulling our hair out year after year throwing the same bodies to the mound that continue to fail this organization. Specifically Buchholz, Kelly & that once prized project, turned bust in Henry Owens who might as well start practicing to be a reliever since he'll never turn the corner as a starter at the major league level.

Eduardo Rodriguez? Looks good on paper but what have you done for me lately? Oh that's right, demoted to the minors.

Million dollar offence, 10 cent pitching staff.

soxer04
07-02-2016, 03:30 PM
Bo – sorry I made a mistake about Reddick. I misread- sorry.

I agree Sox need pitching. What do you think they need in terms of caliber of starter vs what do you think they have the capability of getting? I think with Devers, Swihart, Erod, Owens, Kopech, Sam Travis, along with several lower tier players – BUT one other player to throw in the mix is Jack Bradley Junior. SO with the collection of the aforementioned – what COMBINATION would it take to get an ace or a solid number 2 for more than 1 year (I don’t want a rented pitcher nor do I want a 1 year guy)? Can we get an ace ro top tier number 2 starter without giving up JBJ? If so- what combination rom above?

We can pick up a free agent number 5 starter in FA.

I know there is more but as for a top tier starter- based on the names – what would you say would land a top tier guy? I know most would say “no way” to JBJ but as well all know you have to give in order to get. And imo Beni is on track to making the ballclub as a starter next year. So the Outfield would be Betts, Beni and Young. There is a concern with Holt wearing down so you give him 400- 425 at bats instead of the 500 he has received. Then we just have to rely on other bench players. He should be excellent with approx 425 at bats spread over an entire season so we have the outfield covered.

OFC I need to know Beni will be a viable starter next year, He has been doing really really well in Portland lately. Benii doesn’t need to be a star “day one” or “day 100” etc if he were to play with Sox pro team next year.

Bo Sox Fan
07-02-2016, 08:21 PM
I'd blow the pitching staff up somewhat and add a heavy bat that RedSoxtober oh so desperately wants knowing that Holt is back, so here goes...

--------------------

(In house) first of all:
- E. Rodriguez to AAA (stays)
- Joe Kelly to the ML bullpen

To Oakland:
- Blake Swihart C/UTL
- Matt Barnes SP/RP
- Pat Light SP/RP
- Luis A. Basabe OF

To Boston:
- Rich Hill SP
- Sean Doolittle LHRP

--------------------

To Pittsburgh:
- Clay Buchholz
~ Struggling SP
$13 mil owed in 2017


To Boston:
- Francisco Liriano SP
~ Struggling SP
$13.5 mil owed in 2017

--------------------

To Colorado:
- Travis Shaw 1B
- Michael Kopech SP
- Mauricio Dubon INF

To Boston:
- Carlos Gonzalez LF

--------------------

L Price
R Wright
L Hill
R Porcello
L Liriano

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Kelly
(Fill out the rest)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. R Bogaerts SS
4. L Ortiz DH
5. L Gonzalez LF
6. R Ramirez 1B
7. L Bradley Jr. CF
8. R Vazquez C
9. L Holt 3B

- Hanigan C
- Marrero UTL
- Young OF (eventually)
- Hernandez UTL

byan04
07-02-2016, 11:31 PM
I'd blow the pitching staff up somewhat and add a heavy bat that RedSoxtober oh so desperately wants knowing that Holt is back, so here goes...

--------------------

(In house) first of all:
- E. Rodriguez to AAA (stays)
- Joe Kelly to the ML bullpen

To Oakland:
- Blake Swihart C/UTL
- Matt Barnes SP/RP
- Pat Light SP/RP
- Luis A. Basabe OF

To Boston:
- Rich Hill SP
- Sean Doolittle LHRP

--------------------

To Pittsburgh:
- Clay Buchholz
~ Struggling SP
$13 mil owed in 2017


To Boston:
- Francisco Liriano SP
~ Struggling SP
$13.5 mil owed in 2017

--------------------

To Colorado:
- Travis Shaw 1B
- Michael Kopech SP
- Mauricio Dubon INF

To Boston:
- Carlos Gonzalez LF

--------------------

L Price
R Wright
L Hill
R Porcello
L Liriano

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Kelly
(Fill out the rest)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. R Bogaerts SS
4. L Ortiz DH
5. L Gonzalez LF
6. R Ramirez 1B
7. L Bradley Jr. CF
8. R Vazquez C
9. L Holt 3B

- Hanigan C
- Marrero UTL
- Young OF (eventually)
- Hernandez UTL


i have to say i like all of your ideas up here. a few should have been done already ..struggling pitcher for struggling pitcher . Pitts. would take that .doolittle is hurt now . so thats null and void.. erod can stay in AAA .. we most deff need that LF left handed bat in the lineup besides holt ..he would solidify that OF...im hoping something is done.. soon . we cant keep pitching like this every other game ..

soxer04
07-03-2016, 02:36 AM
I'd blow the pitching staff up somewhat and add a heavy bat that RedSoxtober oh so desperately wants knowing that Holt is back, so here goes...

--------------------

(In house) first of all:
- E. Rodriguez to AAA (stays)
- Joe Kelly to the ML bullpen

To Oakland:
- Blake Swihart C/UTL
- Matt Barnes SP/RP
- Pat Light SP/RP
- Luis A. Basabe OF

To Boston:
- Rich Hill SP
- Sean Doolittle LHRP

--------------------

To Pittsburgh:
- Clay Buchholz
~ Struggling SP
$13 mil owed in 2017


To Boston:
- Francisco Liriano SP
~ Struggling SP
$13.5 mil owed in 2017

--------------------

To Colorado:
- Travis Shaw 1B
- Michael Kopech SP
- Mauricio Dubon INF

To Boston:
- Carlos Gonzalez LF

--------------------

L Price
R Wright
L Hill
R Porcello
L Liriano

R Kimbrel
L Doolittle
R Kelly
(Fill out the rest)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. R Bogaerts SS
4. L Ortiz DH
5. L Gonzalez LF
6. R Ramirez 1B
7. L Bradley Jr. CF
8. R Vazquez C
9. L Holt 3B

- Hanigan C
- Marrero UTL
- Young OF (eventually)
- Hernandez UTL


SO your trades the main players you would get are Hill, Liriano and Gonzalez. SO you want us to get older at all three positions? ANd what are you going to do about next year going after a young top-tier starter? And how confident are you that Gonzlaez who played in Colorado basically all his career is worth it? His splits at home vs away are enormous.

No thanks to Carlos imo. I'd prefer to save and go after a young top tier pitcher in the offseason.

Bo Sox Fan
07-03-2016, 08:15 AM
SO your trades the main players you would get are Hill, Liriano and Gonzalez. SO you want us to get older at all three positions? ANd what are you going to do about next year going after a young top-tier starter? And how confident are you that Gonzlaez who played in Colorado basically all his career is worth it? His splits at home vs away are enormous.

No thanks to Carlos imo. I'd prefer to save and go after a young top tier pitcher in the offseason.

SO, why do you ask for my opinion if you don't like it? We get OLDER but it's for 2 MONTHS while saving the top end of the FARM to go after a cost controlled ace in the OFFSEASON. There's TOO many holes on this roster to take a World Series run seriously but we can TRY with some tier 2 additions.

Do you realize how stupid you sound typing like THIS. Your like a 10 year old who has been given their first responsibility and you're acting like a BOSS, but it's CUTE to the adults.

Soxfan85
07-03-2016, 10:30 AM
Why would we trade for a struggling pitcher? That's like selling your junk car for another one. Liriano is just as bad if not worse than Clay.

Bo Sox Fan
07-03-2016, 11:31 AM
Why would we trade for a struggling pitcher? That's like selling your junk car for another one. Liriano is just as bad if not worse than Clay.

It's called a change of scenery. I thought that deal would be pretty simple to figure out, but then again there are a lot of simple people out there so I'll explain.

Clay is struggling bad in Boston but still has the stuff. Liriano is struggling in Pittsburgh but also has the stuff. Both players have identical contracts. Case in point, they make for a perfect swap to perhaps revive themselves.

Hopefully that helps you out.

soxer04
07-03-2016, 12:35 PM
SO, why do you ask for my opinion if you don't like it? We get OLDER but it's for 2 MONTHS while saving the top end of the FARM to go after a cost controlled ace in the OFFSEASON. There's TOO many holes on this roster to take a World Series run seriously but we can TRY with some tier 2 additions.

Do you realize how stupid you sound typing like THIS. Your like a 10 year old who has been given their first responsibility and you're acting like a BOSS, but it's CUTE to the adults.

Wow- I disagree with your point of view and this is what I get? I was interested in what you had to say and offered a counter opinion. SO is that what this site is about when we disagree with one another we insult each other?

So I disagreed with your points. Big deal.