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View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting - 2 v 7 (ABA)



Ebbs
05-28-2016, 04:08 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll



Montreal
C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar (40), Pau Gasol (8), Mehmet Okur
PF - Pau Gasol (30), Dave Debusschere(18), George McGinnis
SF - Elgin Baylor (38), Dave Debusschere (10)
SG - Mitch Richmond (34), Jimmy Butler (14)
PG - Derrick Rose (24), Nate Archibald (24)

vs.

F-Town Gunners
PG: Oscar Robertson/Mike Bibby
SG: Doug Christie/Adrian Dantley
SF: George Gervin/Tayshaun Prince
PF: Chris Bosh/David West
C: Bill Laimbeer/Theo Ratliff

Quinnsanity
05-28-2016, 04:12 PM
I'm actually really tempted to go with F-Town. That ****** perimeter defense against Oscar and Gervin? That's a recipe for disaster. Bosh's slimmer build isn't as much of a problem against Pau as it would be against, say, Karl Malone, and Laimbeer is a fine matchup for Kareem. Those shooting bigs would really draw Kareem and Pau out of the paint... **** it... Montreal's better... but F-Town owns this matchup. I'm voting for them.

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 04:26 PM
Man, these are four really tough votes for matchups that should be pretty easy for the higher seeds. Montreal is kind of underwhelming as a No. 2 seed. Yeah, they've got a sexy front court, but that defense has got to be one of the most mediocre defenses I've seen in an all-time re-draft. You'd think that they would have gone out of their way to get better defensively for at least a couple of positions. I'd almost call the two forward positions draws, but I think Kareem and Oscar get a substantial edge, respectively, at C and PG. Montreal is better offensively and F-Town is better on the defensive end.

Another coin flip for me. I'll see how the conversation goes, but I think I'm leaning ever so slightly in Montreal's favor just sheerly from a talent perspective at this point.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 04:58 PM
Congrats to Saddler. Im on my phone but I think the big men matchup will be the biggest difference. Laimbeer was tough but Kareem is one of the best scorers all time for a reason. Pau is also great in the post and can play 10-15 feet when Kareem is in there.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 05:03 PM
I'm actually really tempted to go with F-Town. That ****** perimeter defense against Oscar and Gervin? That's a recipe for disaster. Bosh's slimmer build isn't as much of a problem against Pau as it would be against, say, Karl Malone, and Laimbeer is a fine matchup for Kareem. Those shooting bigs would really draw Kareem and Pau out of the paint... **** it... Montreal's better... but F-Town owns this matchup. I'm voting for them.

How would Laimbeer be a fine matchup for Kareem but Dave D and Butler cant handle or try amd help limit Gervin and Oscar?

Ebbs
05-28-2016, 05:33 PM
Butler vs. Gervin :laugh:

Raps post would feast, Sadds perimeter would feast I'm pretty torn. Sell me.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 06:40 PM
Butler vs. Gervin :laugh:

Raps post would feast, Sadds perimeter would feast I'm pretty torn. Sell me.

Not saying Butler shuts down Gervin but Butlers not exactly getting torched defending Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, Kobe, Westy, Harden, Klay the past few years as far as I know.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 06:47 PM
Ill try to think of a short writeup in a few hoirs though

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 06:52 PM
Looking over the rosters again, there's one thing that stands out to me that seems like kind of a big mistake from Montreal's standpoint. Why split the minutes evenly between Rose and Archibald? Tiny has never been considered to be a particularly strong defender, but at least Rose is long, athletic and was solid on that end at his peak before the injury. So instead of placing an athletic, larger PG on Oscar Robertson, they're going to be placing Tiny on him instead for half the game? That seems like a pretty big mistake as I think Tiny would just get absolutely torched by the 6-5 Robertson. Oscar's got more than 50 pounds on him!

Size is kind of an issue for that entire team, though. Their wings are both 6'5", their sixth man is a 150-pound point guard, their primary backup big is a 6'6" SF from the 60s and the backup C is Mehmet freakin' Okur. Now that I think about it, I think this is a much bigger issue than I initially thought. F-Town has a legitimate advantage from a size and athleticism standpoint in my book. The only position where Montreal's got the size edge is at C with Kareem.

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 06:57 PM
Reasons we win:

1. Oscar is one of the greatest PG's of all time, obviously, and we have 2 great pick n pop bigs to give him so much space (not to mention Gervin and Christie spacing as well). Can Gasol keep up with the Oscar/Bosh PnR combo? Gasol is known for lousy defense and he doesnt have the legs to contain Oscar or Bosh on pick n roll. Gasol is better at defending near them rim than he is in space. Bosh is also one of the better face-up bigs of his era. He can take advantage of Pau in the mid-range area.

2. Baylor guarding Gervin is a mismatch. Baylor wasn't known for his defense, and can be taken advantage of on that end. On the other end, we'll have Christie and Prince (2 all-defense players in their primes) guarding Baylor and Gervin guarding Richmond. Their team doesn't have the perimeter defenders to keep up with our explosive guards/wings. Baylor has absolutely no advantage guarding Gervin or Dantley (2 of the most efficient scorers of their generation).

3. Kareem is definitely a beast but we have respectable bodies to throw at him. Laimbeer is one of the most physical defenders of his era, and defended KAJ pretty well in their finals matchup (KAJ was admittedly old at this point). We also have Ratliff, who is one of the better defenders of his era, and even Bosh could get some possessions on him, since KAJ isn't the bruiser that most of the other elite Centers are.

4. Questionable offensive fit for Montreal? Their offense features bigs who prefer to post first, and aren't really good fits for Rose's slash and kick game. By posting KAJ and Pau, it really limits Rose since he's a terrible spot-up shooter. We can easily cheat off of Rose with Oscar to double alot of their post-ups. Even their bench has limited shooting. Butler is below average as a 3pt shooter, Archibald isn't known for range-shooting, and neither is Debuscherre. Rose really cramps their offense, which would force them to use Tiny, who Oscar can REALLY take advantage of.

Conclusion. Our backcourt is too explosive for them, and are a great fit together. We have defenders to stop their guards, and we have enough respectable bigs to give KAJ a fight. Their offensive fit is questionable without good shooters to space for their bigs, and Rose not having an elite pick n roll big to help his slash game. Rose doesn't have the playmaking ability to maximize this offense, and we have the defenders to clamp down on their wing scorers. Oscar/Bosh is too dangerous a pnr combo for Rose/Tiny/Gasol to contain. Our team is more balanced, and has better defenders to fight off their star power. On the other side, who contains Oscar? Who can slow down Gervin? Who stops Dantley? Butler can't guard everyone, and is only giving 15 mins...

Montreal only really has an advantage at 1 position, while we're deeper, and have more weapon to score with.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 07:07 PM
Looking over the rosters again, there's one thing that stands out to me that seems like kind of a big mistake from Montreal's standpoint. Why split the minutes evenly between Rose and Archibald? Tiny has never been considered to be a particularly strong defender, but at least Rose is long, athletic and was solid on that end at his peak before the injury. So instead of placing an athletic, larger PG on Oscar Robertson, they're going to be placing Tiny on him instead for half the game? That seems like a pretty big mistake as I think Tiny would just get absolutely torched by the 6-5 Robertson. Oscar's got more than 50 pounds on him!

Size is kind of an issue for that entire team, though. Their wings are both 6'5", their sixth man is a 150-pound point guard, their primary backup big is a 6'6" SF from the 60s and the backup C is Mehmet freakin' Okur. Now that I think about it, I think this is a much bigger issue than I initially thought. F-Town has a legitimate advantage from a size and athleticism standpoint in my book. The only position where Montreal's got the size edge is at C with Kareem.

Uh, no. Id change up the minutes distribution depending on the matchup.

That was a generic clubhoise depth chart.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 07:14 PM
Reasons we win:

1. Oscar is one of the greatest PG's of all time, obviously, and we have 2 great pick n pop bigs to give him so much space (not to mention Gervin and Christie spacing as well). Can Gasol keep up with the Oscar/Bosh PnR combo? Gasol is known for lousy defense and he doesnt have the legs to contain Oscar or Bosh on pick n roll. Gasol is better at defending near them rim than he is in space. Bosh is also one of the better face-up bigs of his era. He can take advantage of Pau in the mid-range area.

2. Baylor guarding Gervin is a mismatch. Baylor wasn't known for his defense, and can be taken advantage of on that end. On the other end, we'll have Christie and Prince (2 all-defense players in their primes) guarding Baylor and Gervin guarding Richmond. Their team doesn't have the perimeter defenders to keep up with our explosive guards/wings. Baylor has absolutely no advantage guarding Gervin or Dantley (2 of the most efficient scorers of their generation).

3. Kareem is definitely a beast but we have respectable bodies to throw at him. Laimbeer is one of the most physical defenders of his era, and defended KAJ pretty well in their finals matchup (KAJ was admittedly old at this point). We also have Ratliff, who is one of the better defenders of his era, and even Bosh could get some possessions on him, since KAJ isn't the bruiser that most of the other elite Centers are.

4. Questionable offensive fit for Montreal? Their offense features bigs who prefer to post first, and aren't really good fits for Rose's slash and kick game. By posting KAJ and Pau, it really limits Rose since he's a terrible spot-up shooter. We can easily cheat off of Rose with Oscar to double alot of their post-ups. Even their bench has limited shooting. Butler is below average as a 3pt shooter, Archibald isn't known for range-shooting, and neither is Debuscherre. Rose really cramps their offense, which would force them to use Tiny, who Oscar can REALLY take advantage of.

Conclusion. Our backcourt is too explosive for them, and are a great fit together. We have defenders to stop their guards, and we have enough respectable bigs to give KAJ a fight. Their offensive fit is questionable without good shooters to space for their bigs, and Rose not having an elite pick n roll big to help his slash game. Rose doesn't have the playmaking ability to maximize this offense, and we have the defenders to clamp down on their wing scorers. Oscar/Bosh is too dangerous a pnr combo for Rose/Tiny/Gasol to contain. Our team is more balanced, and has better defenders to fight off their star power. On the other side, who contains Oscar? Who can slow down Gervin? Who stops Dantley? Butler can't guard everyone, and is only giving 15 mins...

Montreal only really has an advantage at 1 position, while we're deeper, and have more weapon to score with.

I dont see how you can say Theo and laimbeer are good enough to give KAJ a fight but Butler and Dave D arent good enoigh for Oscar/Gervin. Especially since gervin and oscar would have to rely on mid range shots as neither are 3 point threats even beating dave d and vutler.. If you wanna trade gervin and oscars 15 footers to kaj and paus post shots, then okay. Ill get home in a few hours talk about butler, our identity, and the rest of this post .

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 07:28 PM
I dont see how you can say Theo and laimbeer are good enough to give KAJ a fight but Butler and Dave D arent good enoigh for Oscar/Gervin. Especially since gervin and oscar would have to rely on mid range shots as neither are 3 point threats even beating dave d and vutler.. If you wanna trade gervin and oscars 15 footers to kaj and paus post shots, then okay. Ill get home in a few hours talk about butler, our identity, and the rest of this post .
Debuscherre is a 4...how would he guard Oscar? The mid-range argument works for Oscar but Gervin definitely had 3pt range. Using debuscherre to guard my guards really helps west and dantley...who would guard them, Archibald?

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 07:38 PM
Debuscherre is a 4...how would he guard Oscar? The mid-range argument works for Oscar but Gervin definitely had 3pt range. Using debuscherre to guard my guards really helps west and dantley...who would guard them, Archibald?

Dave D defended wings as well...

If Gervin's 29% from 3 means that he has a 3 pointer, then Rose shouldhave one too. Not to mention you forgot Rose was at one point one of the stronger mid range shooters in the Nba in his prime.

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 07:53 PM
Dave D defended wings as well...

If Gervin's 29% from 3 means that he has a 3 pointer, then Rose shouldhave one too. Not to mention you forgot Rose was at one point one of the stronger mid range shooters in the Nba in his prime.
I stand corrected on the Gervin point, but it still doesnt deter my offense.


Rose spacing from mid-range doesnt support post-ups. Your team's offense is post-up based which doesn't help Rose's strength. My offense is PnR based which supports Oscar and both of my bigs.

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 07:55 PM
And Debuscherre/Butler guarding Gervin/Oscar helps Dantley and West who are also effective scorers. Tiny has to guard someone if you're rolling with that lineup. The player that Tiny guards will get abused

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 09:50 PM
Reasons we win:

1. Oscar is one of the greatest PG's of all time, obviously, and we have 2 great pick n pop bigs to give him so much space (not to mention Gervin and Christie spacing as well). Can Gasol keep up with the Oscar/Bosh PnR combo? Gasol is known for lousy defense and he doesnt have the legs to contain Oscar or Bosh on pick n roll. Gasol is better at defending near them rim than he is in space. Bosh is also one of the better face-up bigs of his era. He can take advantage of Pau in the mid-range area.

What we'd like to point out is your offense will have to rely on the mid range shot and at some point, the tradeoff between your mid range and my post post scoring will come into play. Neither Bosh or Laimbeer are strong scorers in the post. You've referred in other posts how they are going to stretch the floor but neither one were elite 3 point shooters in their prime years. By the time Bosh was a solid 3 point shooter, he was scoring 46% from the field and was averaging 7 rebounds a game (10 rebounds in his prime). Laimbeer's best 3 point shooting seasons came when he was scoring 48% from the field and was averaging 9 rebounds a game (14 rebounds in his prime).

If you want to use those versions of your big men and give up the sizable advantage on the boards, we'll take it, because your mid range isn't going to continuously hit and we're going to drastically limit your 2nd chance opportunities with Kareem, Baylor and Pau on the boards.

Chirstie provides your 3 pointers but his 3FG% fluctuated quite a bit in his career and wasn't making them at a high clip. In his best 3 year stretch (2000-2003), he was making ONE 3 pointer a game on 37% shooting. He's not a dynamic scorer who's going to destroy my team as well form 3 point range. Not to mention he was hot garbage in the playoffs from 3. Gervin shot under 30% from 3 as well in his career while Oscar didn't play in a 3 point line (but he wasn't know to stretch the floor anyway).


2. Baylor guarding Gervin is a mismatch. Baylor wasn't known for his defense, and can be taken advantage of on that end. On the other end, we'll have Christie and Prince (2 all-defense players in their primes) guarding Baylor and Gervin guarding Richmond. Their team doesn't have the perimeter defenders to keep up with our explosive guards/wings. Baylor has absolutely no advantage guarding Gervin or Dantley (2 of the most efficient scorers of their generation).

This isn't true at all. If we are giving credit to Prince/Christie, why don't we give credit to better defenders in Dave D and Butler (9x All-NBA Defense between them)?

Oscar was an elite and versatile player but Butler (3x All NBA Defense) has an excellent history in guarding players like Lebron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Harden, etc, all of whom are versatile and just as good,if not better, offensively. While we don't expect Butler to shut down Oscar, Oscar wouldn't be going off with Butler in the game.

Dave D was one of the best post/perimeter players in the 60/70's and was known to play elite 1 on 1 defense (practically chest to chest) against the players he was up against. Gervin is operating in the midrange area, giving him less space to beat Dave D off the dribble and find an open shot to the basket (since Kareem are going to contest shot behind him).

As for Dantley, I completely agree he was a good scorer. But he was a notorious black hole on offense. He was a 6'5" post player and the ball didn't move and the flow of the game dramatically changed when he had the ball on offense. He wasn't the best passer out of the post (if he wanted to pass it at all) at all. If you want to go to him and cut off the amount of time Oscar from having the ball (since Dantley wasn't the most efficient with the shot clock) then you're more than welcome to. Our wings would beat him in the perimeter when he's on defense and he doesn't have the size to guard Pau or Kareem in the post.


3. Kareem is definitely a beast but we have respectable bodies to throw at him. Laimbeer is one of the most physical defenders of his era, and defended KAJ pretty well in their finals matchup (KAJ was admittedly old at this point). We also have Ratliff, who is one of the better defenders of his era, and even Bosh could get some possessions on him, since KAJ isn't the bruiser that most of the other elite Centers are.

Better defenders have struggled against KAJ. Kareem's sky hook one of the best (if not the best) offensive move and the leading scorer in NBA history for a reason. There's no doubt Ratliff and Laimbeer are solid defenders, but if you're going to give these 2 credit against Kareem, there's no way you can't give Butler and Dave D credit against your wings (where the gap is smaller).


4. Questionable offensive fit for Montreal? Their offense features bigs who prefer to post first, and aren't really good fits for Rose's slash and kick game. By posting KAJ and Pau, it really limits Rose since he's a terrible spot-up shooter. We can easily cheat off of Rose with Oscar to double alot of their post-ups. Even their bench has limited shooting. Butler is below average as a 3pt shooter, Archibald isn't known for range-shooting, and neither is Debuscherre. Rose really cramps their offense, which would force them to use Tiny, who Oscar can REALLY take advantage of.

While it's true Rose's kick and drive game does not play to my post players, that doesn't mean he can't contribute. You're wrong by saying Rose is a terrible spot up shooter.

In Rose's 3 best years, he shot the following (FGM, FGA, FG%):

2009-2010 season (78 games)
10 to <16 ft: 104, 218, .477
16 ft to <3-pt: 234, 528. .443

2010-2011 season (81 games)
10 to <16 ft: 81, 191, .424
16 ft to <3-pt: 154, 384, .401

2011-2012 season (played 39 games but he was injured all season long 39)
10 to <16 ft: 21, 65, .323
16 ft to <3-pt: 42, 115, .365
3-pt: 57, 179, .318

So clearly when he was healthy (WHICH ACCORDING TO THE GAME, PLAYERS ARE 100% HEALTHY), he was an elite mid range scorer. As a comparison for fun, let's look at some elite shooters.



Steph Curry's 2 MVP seasons.

2015-2016
10 to <16 ft: 40, 88, .455
16 ft to <3-pt: 73, 159, .459

2014-2015
10 to <16 ft: 55, 123, .447
16 ft to <3-pt: 115, 279, .412

Kobe's MVP season

2007-2008
10 to <16 ft: 133, 294, .452
16 ft to <3-pt: 236, 615, .384

Dwyane Wade's best season

2008-2009
10 to <16 ft: 80, 182, .440
16 ft to <3-pt: 255, 609, .419

2014-2015
James Harden MVP runner-up season
10 to <16 ft: 62, 145, .428
16 ft to <3-pt: 83, 246, .337

Kevin Durant MVP season
10 to <16 ft: 178, 418, .426
16 ft to <3-pt: 140, 304, .461



That's 5 elite scorers in the past 10 years during their best seasons who are known for their ability to shoot the ball from mid range. Rose's numbers are comparable/better than some of these guys. So the idea that Rose can't help space the floor is completely wrong when he's an elite mid range shooter in his prime. If you still want to leave Rose open to double Kareem or Pau, then that's not a good idea since Pau and Kareem are elite passers out of the post and Rose can hit that mid range.

Butler in his prime was a 33% shooter from 3 in the regular season and shot 38% from 3 in the playoffs while averaging 1.7 3FGM per game in 49 playoff games. For comparison, Doug Christie was absolute garbage from 3 in the playoffs. From 200-2003 (his best years from 3 in the regular season at 37%), we as a terrible 27% from 3 in the playoffs, shooting 28 for 105 while playing 36 playoff games. He's a NON-FACTOR in the playoffs offensively. He had 1 year shooting well from 3 in the playoffs (2003-2004) when he shot 13 for 33, but even if you include those numbers instead of 2000-2001, he was still shooting 29% from 3 point land.

We haven't even talked about Mitch Richmond yet, who in his best years (1995-1998) was shooting 42% from 3 while averaging 2.4 3FGM per game (which is the same/more 3's made as Bosh and Christie made in their best years combined at lower 3FG%).

I want Gasol in the post vs Bosh (who wasn't particularly strong defensively in his Raptors years), but he can also made the mid range as well. In the Lakers' 2 championship seasons, this is how he shot from the field.

2009-2010 season
10 to <16 ft: 85, 194, .438
16 ft to <3-pt: 50, 102, .490

2008-2009 season
10 to <16 ft: 109, 224, .487
16 ft to <3-pt: 51, 134, .381

So the idea that I don't have spacers for my post players isn't true. In fact, you can argue my 3 point shooting is better than yours. In an 8 man rotation, I have an elite 3 point shooter in Mitch, a capable 3 point shooter in Butler, and an elite mid range shooter in Rose. Baylor, Pau and Kareem are elite passers at their position, so the ball movement between the post, mid range and 3 point shot isn't going to be a problem.

While Tiny isn't a great shooter, what he was throughout his career was an elite and quick scorer and strong passer and he displayed this in his Celtics years despite being out of his prime. In certain parts of the game when Pau or KAJ are on the bench and put in a lineup of Tiny-Mitch-Butler-Baylor-KAJ/Pau and try to simply outscore your players with strong ball movement and playing more uptempto. Tiny probably isn't playing as much minutes as I had allocated in the regular season (24 mins) due to Oscar but when he does come off the bench, his ability to score would make up for the lack of defensive skills he may have.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 09:59 PM
And Debuscherre/Butler guarding Gervin/Oscar helps Dantley and West who are also effective scorers. Tiny has to guard someone if you're rolling with that lineup. The player that Tiny guards will get abused

Tiny is playing less minutes than I had allocated for him in my clubhouse that Ebbs copied and pasted for this series due to the matchups. And even when he does play, the lineup with him would have the purpose to outscore your team in a fast paced offense. Tiny is more than capable of guarding Christie anyway if you're going to make him a spot up shooter.

If Dantley (a black hole) and David ****ing West are the ones to change this series because they are beating us in the post (which they wouldn't) over Kareem and Pau , then my team should never make the playoffs to begin with.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 10:12 PM
I stand corrected on the Gervin point, but it still doesnt deter my offense.


Rose spacing from mid-range doesnt support post-ups. Your team's offense is post-up based which doesn't help Rose's strength. My offense is PnR based which supports Oscar and both of my bigs.

Of course it does. 1 of Rose's strengths was to make the mid range shot (and he was FANTASTIC at it). You just said you were going to double Kareem or Pau in the post and leave Rose open. Well Pau and Kareem are 2 of the best passers of all time at their position. If they are posting up and you leave Rose open, then they'll pass to Rose at mid range (where he was elite in his prime) and he'll have a chance of shooting wide open from a distance he's good at.

So even if Rose isn't up to his regular slash and kick game, that doesn't make him ineffective.

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 10:22 PM
I'll respond after the OKC game but I definitely have counters for that rose argument. Its way easier to rotate from mid-range than it is from 3. All we have too is dig with Oscar or Gervin and recover...using rose to "spread the floor" from midrange helps us.

I'll go into more detail after

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2016, 10:28 PM
I'll respond after the OKC game but I definitely have counters for that rose argument. Its way easier to rotate from mid-range than it is from 3. All we have too is dig with Oscar or Gervin and recover...using rose to "spread the floor" from midrange helps us.

I'll go into more detail after

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Of course it's not the same as spacing from 3 but that doesn't neutralize it, especially if Kareem and Pau are passing to the other side and Gervin/Oscar are not elite defenders. Not to mention it doesn't have to stop at the mid range. Rose can attack the basket while receiving a pass from Kareem/Pau and get to the hoop or can pass it out to another player when they struggle to rotate.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 02:53 AM
What we'd like to point out is your offense will have to rely on the mid range shot and at some point, the tradeoff between your mid range and my post post scoring will come into play. Neither Bosh or Laimbeer are strong scorers in the post. You've referred in other posts how they are going to stretch the floor but neither one were elite 3 point shooters in their prime years. By the time Bosh was a solid 3 point shooter, he was scoring 46% from the field and was averaging 7 rebounds a game (10 rebounds in his prime). Laimbeer's best 3 point shooting seasons came when he was scoring 48% from the field and was averaging 9 rebounds a game (14 rebounds in his prime).
Bosh was an elite face-up big, and could easily take it to Gasol. Gasol only had success guarding post-up guys near the rim. Bosh is too quick for Gasol to handle, especially in pick n pop situations. Laimbeer isn't the offensive threat Bosh is but he's still a very good mid-range shooter. It's easier to hit wide-open mid-range shots than it is to hit contested post shots with the threat of double teams, in today's game. These guys won't be relying on isolation mid-rangers...it'll be Oscar slashing and drawing doubles to kick out for them (3 pointers for Bosh). We all know Bosh is one of the best mid-range shooters in the league, and has become a good 3pt threat of late.



Chirstie provides your 3 pointers but his 3FG% fluctuated quite a bit in his career and wasn't making them at a high clip. In his best 3 year stretch (2000-2003), he was making ONE 3 pointer a game on 37% shooting. He's not a dynamic scorer who's going to destroy my team as well form 3 point range. Not to mention he was hot garbage in the playoffs from 3. Gervin shot under 30% from 3 as well in his career while Oscar didn't play in a 3 point line (but he wasn't know to stretch the floor anyway).

Christie would definitely shoot more than 3 3pa per game. at 37% that's more than good enough to spread the floor.


This isn't true at all. If we are giving credit to Prince/Christie, why don't we give credit to better defenders in Dave D and Butler (9x All-NBA Defense between them)?

Oscar was an elite and versatile player but Butler (3x All NBA Defense) has an excellent history in guarding players like Lebron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Harden, etc, all of whom are versatile and just as good,if not better, offensively. While we don't expect Butler to shut down Oscar, Oscar wouldn't be going off with Butler in the game.

Dave D was one of the best post/perimeter players in the 60/70's and was known to play elite 1 on 1 defense (practically chest to chest) against the players he was up against. Gervin is operating in the midrange area, giving him less space to beat Dave D off the dribble and find an open shot to the basket (since Kareem are going to contest shot behind him).
Like I said, what lineup will those guys be playing with? It's easy to just throw it out there that Butler and Debuscherre will guard Gervin and Oscar, but who are they playing with? If it's with Gasol and KAJ, your offense would go to crap with limited spacing. If it's with your backups, then we could go to Dantley or West to take advantage of the other weak defenders (Okur/Tiny).


As for Dantley, I completely agree he was a good scorer. But he was a notorious black hole on offense. He was a 6'5" post player and the ball didn't move and the flow of the game dramatically changed when he had the ball on offense. He wasn't the best passer out of the post (if he wanted to pass it at all) at all. If you want to go to him and cut off the amount of time Oscar from having the ball (since Dantley wasn't the most efficient with the shot clock) then you're more than welcome to. Our wings would beat him in the perimeter when he's on defense and he doesn't have the size to guard Pau or Kareem in the post.

He's a classic 6th man. We could easily get buckets with him and survive with him on D. We have Christie and Prince to handle your best wing scorers. Dantley would just guard whichever wing is weakest. We could easily hide him on Debuscherre, or if u wanna isolate Richmond on him, be my guest.


Better defenders have struggled against KAJ. Kareem's sky hook one of the best (if not the best) offensive move and the leading scorer in NBA history for a reason. There's no doubt Ratliff and Laimbeer are solid defenders, but if you're going to give these 2 credit against Kareem, there's no way you can't give Butler and Dave D credit against your wings (where the gap is smaller).

Your guys are good defenders, but like I said, we can attack your weaknesses. If those guys are playing with Tiny in a hypothetical West/Dantley/Gervin/Oscar lineup, we could go to Dantley on Tiny.


While it's true Rose's kick and drive game does not play to my post players, that doesn't mean he can't contribute. You're wrong by saying Rose is a terrible spot up shooter.

In Rose's 3 best years, he shot the following (FGM, FGA, FG%):

2009-2010 season (78 games)
10 to <16 ft: 104, 218, .477
16 ft to <3-pt: 234, 528. .443

2010-2011 season (81 games)
10 to <16 ft: 81, 191, .424
16 ft to <3-pt: 154, 384, .401

2011-2012 season (played 39 games but he was injured all season long 39)
10 to <16 ft: 21, 65, .323
16 ft to <3-pt: 42, 115, .365
3-pt: 57, 179, .318

So clearly when he was healthy (WHICH ACCORDING TO THE GAME, PLAYERS ARE 100% HEALTHY), he was an elite mid range scorer. As a comparison for fun, let's look at some elite shooters.



Steph Curry's 2 MVP seasons.

2015-2016
10 to <16 ft: 40, 88, .455
16 ft to <3-pt: 73, 159, .459

2014-2015
10 to <16 ft: 55, 123, .447
16 ft to <3-pt: 115, 279, .412

Kobe's MVP season

2007-2008
10 to <16 ft: 133, 294, .452
16 ft to <3-pt: 236, 615, .384

Dwyane Wade's best season

2008-2009
10 to <16 ft: 80, 182, .440
16 ft to <3-pt: 255, 609, .419

2014-2015
James Harden MVP runner-up season
10 to <16 ft: 62, 145, .428
16 ft to <3-pt: 83, 246, .337

Kevin Durant MVP season
10 to <16 ft: 178, 418, .426
16 ft to <3-pt: 140, 304, .461



That's 5 elite scorers in the past 10 years during their best seasons who are known for their ability to shoot the ball from mid range. Rose's numbers are comparable/better than some of these guys. So the idea that Rose can't help space the floor is completely wrong when he's an elite mid range shooter in his prime. If you still want to leave Rose open to double Kareem or Pau, then that's not a good idea since Pau and Kareem are elite passers out of the post and Rose can hit that mid range.
I'm not saying Rose would be useless, but he certainly wouldn't be efficient. Rose isn't the scorer those guys you named are. His shooting significantly drops in the playoffs, and he just wouldn't mesh with the post-up guys. Like I mentioned before, it'll be easy to dig and recover if you wanna use Rose strictly as a mid-range threat. That works so much better for my defense. Also Rose would have limited space near the basket with Gasol and KAJ clogging the paint.


Butler in his prime was a 33% shooter from 3 in the regular season and shot 38% from 3 in the playoffs while averaging 1.7 3FGM per game in 49 playoff games. For comparison, Doug Christie was absolute garbage from 3 in the playoffs. From 200-2003 (his best years from 3 in the regular season at 37%), we as a terrible 27% from 3 in the playoffs, shooting 28 for 105 while playing 36 playoff games. He's a NON-FACTOR in the playoffs offensively. He had 1 year shooting well from 3 in the playoffs (2003-2004) when he shot 13 for 33, but even if you include those numbers instead of 2000-2001, he was still shooting 29% from 3 point land.
I'd argue that the better representation of Butler's shooting is in the regular season, since that's when he's played most of his games. The playoff shooting is obviously a mirage. he's been way below average his whole career other than 14/15. He's a great mid-range shooter, but again, it doesn't help your base offense, which is post-ups.


We haven't even talked about Mitch Richmond yet, who in his best years (1995-1998) was shooting 42% from 3 while averaging 2.4 3FGM per game (which is the same/more 3's made as Bosh and Christie made in their best years combined at lower 3FG%).
He's your only above average shooter. We could live with you only having 1 real 3pt shooting threat in your rotation.


I want Gasol in the post vs Bosh (who wasn't particularly strong defensively in his Raptors years), but he can also made the mid range as well. In the Lakers' 2 championship seasons, this is how he shot from the field.

2009-2010 season
10 to <16 ft: 85, 194, .438
16 ft to <3-pt: 50, 102, .490

2008-2009 season
10 to <16 ft: 109, 224, .487
16 ft to <3-pt: 51, 134, .381
I'll be using the Miami Bosh, who was much better on defense and shooting. Gasol is a solid mid-range shooter, but he isn't the pick n pop threat that Bosh is. I like our matchup here, with Gasol being the much weaker defender than Bosh.


So the idea that I don't have spacers for my post players isn't true. In fact, you can argue my 3 point shooting is better than yours. In an 8 man rotation, I have an elite 3 point shooter in Mitch, a capable 3 point shooter in Butler, and an elite mid range shooter in Rose. Baylor, Pau and Kareem are elite passers at their position, so the ball movement between the post, mid range and 3 point shot isn't going to be a problem.
how? Richmond is your only above average 3pt shooter. I have Bosh, Bibby, Christie who are all above average. Gervin is a legendary mid-range shooter, and Dantley one of the most efficient scorers of his era. My guys will be getting better shots with pick n roll movement. Your offense will be stagnant with post-ups. It'll be way harder to contain my offense with the constant pick n rolls, Gervin slashing and isolating, and 2 pick n pop big men. If you had a pure point like Billups who could run the offense and drain 3s, then I'd be in trouble. But a guy like Rose just doesn't fit your offense.

Your offense is more reliant on 3 pointers to space for post threats. My offense is drive n kick/pick n pop or roll based so we don't need as much gunners. We still have a good enough amount of shooters to keep defenses honest. Like I said, Bibby is a great shooter, Bosh is an elite mid-range shooter and has become an above average 3 point shooter, Laimbeer was dependant on the mid-range game, West also an elite mid-ranger in his prime, and Gervin was legendary in the 12-17 ft area.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 03:49 AM
Bosh was an elite face-up big, and could easily take it to Gasol. Gasol only had success guarding post-up guys near the rim. Bosh is too quick for Gasol to handle, especially in pick n pop situations. Laimbeer isn't the offensive threat Bosh is but he's still a very good mid-range shooter. It's easier to hit wide-open mid-range shots than it is to hit contested post shots with the threat of double teams, in today's game. These guys won't be relying on isolation mid-rangers...it'll be Oscar slashing and drawing doubles to kick out for them (3 pointers for Bosh). We all know Bosh is one of the best mid-range shooters in the league, and has become a good 3pt threat of late.

Well that's not very fair now is it. You can't exactly refer to Bosh and Laimbeer getting wide open froms midrange via kick outs but dismiss Rose and others making the mid range when you said you'd leave them wide open when you double my bigs.


Christie would definitely shoot more than 3 3pa per game. at 37% that's more than good enough to spread the floor.

The fact that he's been inconsistent in his career would question how much he'd actually clip if he attempted more shots. But if you want Christie taking more shots while only making 28% from 3 in the playoffs, be my guest.



Like I said, what lineup will those guys be playing with? It's easy to just throw it out there that Butler and Debuscherre will guard Gervin and Oscar, but who are they playing with? If it's with Gasol and KAJ, your offense would go to crap with limited spacing. If it's with your backups, then we could go to Dantley or West to take advantage of the other weak defenders (Okur/Tiny).

Well I wouldn't be playing my backup bigs anyway. KAJ, Pau, Dave D and Baylor will get the C/PF minutes. But basically if I played Butler and Dave D, my offense would be just as good as yours. I mean both Butler and Christie are making 1 3 point shot a game aren't they?


He's a classic 6th man. We could easily get buckets with him and survive with him on D. We have Christie and Prince to handle your best wing scorers. Dantley would just guard whichever wing is weakest. We could easily hide him on Debuscherre, or if u wanna isolate Richmond on him, be my guest.

I wouldn't consider him a classic 6th man. And all players I'm playing on the wings are strong scorers. I guess you can put him on Dave D, but your biggest worries should be how bad he would stop your offense.


Your guys are good defenders, but like I said, we can attack your weaknesses. If those guys are playing with Tiny in a hypothetical West/Dantley/Gervin/Oscar lineup, we could go to Dantley on Tiny.

You want your worst defender guarding my quickest player with West as your rim protector?


I'm not saying Rose would be useless, but he certainly wouldn't be efficient. Rose isn't the scorer those guys you named are. His shooting significantly drops in the playoffs, and he just wouldn't mesh with the post-up guys. Like I mentioned before, it'll be easy to dig and recover if you wanna use Rose strictly as a mid-range threat. That works so much better for my defense. Also Rose would have limited space near the basket with Gasol and KAJ clogging the paint.

1. Half your players wouldn't be as efficient in the system you are running.
2. I never said Rose was those scorers. I said that if those guys aren't ragged for their mid range, Rose shooting as good or better should get the same treatment.
3. In the playoffs, Rose in 2009 shot .412 from 10-16 and .450 from 16 out to inside 3. For 2010, it was .333 and .408. Playoff teams play better defense. A drop off is expected for all players(no to mention these aren't even big drop offs). Don't believe me? Check out the same players I mentioned.
4. Can't see how that "benefits" your defense. Rose shot those numbers over the course of a regular season (when he's open and being guarded). You're leaving him wide open half the time you double team my post players and I've never heard Oscar/Gervin as elite guys on rotations and closing out.
5. Rose has plenty of room to cut to the basket, especially if he is coming from the weak side. Not to mention all my players are strong passers and can rotate the ball well if needed.


I'd argue that the better representation of Butler's shooting is in the regular season, since that's when he's played most of his games. The playoff shooting is obviously a mirage. he's been way below average his whole career other than 14/15. He's a great mid-range shooter, but again, it doesn't help your base offense, which is post-ups.

I'm not going to praise Butler as a 38% 3FG player for his career but can't see how it's not a better representation or not a strong indicator. The playoffs and the regular season are different beasts in itself. There's a reason why certain players are criticized for their performances in the playoffs while some are praised. This matchup is the playoffs. We're judging them on how we think they'll perform in the playoffs.


He's your only above average shooter. We could live with you only having 1 real 3pt shooting threat in your rotation.

He's an elite shooter who makes more 3s than your 2 best 3 point shooters combined (one of whom just sucked in the playoffs FWIW).


I'll be using the Miami Bosh, who was much better on defense and shooting. Gasol is a solid mid-range shooter, but he isn't the pick n pop threat that Bosh is. I like our matchup here, with Gasol being the much weaker defender than Bosh.

Heat Bosh is a good player and while I don't think he's better than prime Gasol, you're giving up a lot on the boards.



how? Richmond is your only above average 3pt shooter. I have Bosh, Bibby, Christie who are all above average. Gervin is a legendary mid-range shooter, and Dantley one of the most efficient scorers of his era. My guys will be getting better shots with pick n roll movement. Your offense will be stagnant with post-ups. It'll be way harder to contain my offense with the constant pick n rolls, Gervin slashing and isolating, and 2 pick n pop big men. If you had a pure point like Billups who could run the offense and drain 3s, then I'd be in trouble. But a guy like Rose just doesn't fit your offense.

1. Bosh and Bibby are good. Mitch and Butler combined from 3 make about the same as those 2 though. Christie was garbage in the playoffs from 3 whether you like it or not. Even if my 3 point shooting isn't better, you certainly don't have the advantage you are making it out to be.

2. Gervin is a fine mid range shooter and not taking that away from him at all but kinda horsecrap you refer to that but dismiss my mid range shooters.

3. It still comes back to you taking mid range shots since your 3, whether you want to believe it or not, isn't a big advantage as you want to make it out to be. Your mid range shots aren't going to fall 48 minutes a game.

4. Dantley's an elite scorer no doubt, but I'm not worried because he's a blackhole on offense. So I doubt you would to him for long period of time. And if you did play him heavy minutes, I'm not worried because: #1, his teams have never gotten anywhere despite being an elite scorer and I don't expect that to change if you try and take advantage of his scoring abilities. And #2, well you are taking the ball out of Oscar's hands. You already said you'd put him on Tiny so Tiny would get plenty of looks at beating him off the dribble if we are playing both our benches. May as well be trading baskets at that point.


Your offense is more reliant on 3 pointers to space for post threats. My offense is drive n kick/pick n pop or roll based so we don't need as much gunners. We still have a good enough amount of shooters to keep defenses honest. Like I said, Bibby is a great shooter, Bosh is an elite mid-range shooter and has become an above average 3 point shooter, Laimbeer was dependant on the mid-range game, West also an elite mid-ranger in his prime, and Gervin was legendary in the 12-17 ft area.

While 3 point shooters is obviously more beneficial, why don't we just point out to the obvious that Kareem played in an era where 3 pointers didn't exist for half of his career...

From 1979 (when 3 point shooting was introduced in the NBA) until 1986 (last year KAJ was scoring 20 PPG in the post. He retired in 1989), the most amount of 3's made in 1 season was 92 . So clearly if they aren't taking and making so many 3s for all but 2 seasons in KAJ's entire career, mid range shooting was very prominent in helping him operate and gain space inside.

There's no way I'm actually going to believe that the mid range shooters I have would be ineffective when Kareem was playing with his PG/SG/SF taking mid range shots to space the floor for him for half his career since there was no 3 point line. And the 3 point line wasn't even heavily used for the first 5-10 years the 3 point line was in the league, which takes up the 2nd half of Kareem's career. I would bet my life that Kareem was probably getting doubled a lot in his prime and his PG/SG/SF were taking 10-24 foot shots when they played with Kareem for most of his career.

Ebbs
05-29-2016, 07:48 AM
Damn it's close.

Picked saddler by a hair.

Ultimately think his front court would bee too much physically. They'd be a huge + on the boards as well.

Shammyguy3
05-29-2016, 08:53 AM
I stand corrected on the Gervin point, but it still doesnt deter my offense.


Rose spacing from mid-range doesnt support post-ups. Your team's offense is post-up based which doesn't help Rose's strength. My offense is PnR based which supports Oscar and both of my bigs.

The three year prime for Rose he was a Very good mid range shooter one of the best in the league and perhaps his most reliable offense for tight games in the 4th

Mr. Baller
05-29-2016, 09:47 AM
The three year prime for Rose he was a Very good mid range shooter one of the best in the league and perhaps his most reliable offense for tight games in the 4th

Completely missed his point

KnicksorBust
05-29-2016, 10:22 AM
I hate to go back to the stone age with this one but this matchup begs for it:

KAJ > Laimbeer
Gasol > Bosh
Baylor > Gervin
Richmond > Christie
Rose < Oscar

Montreal is more talented everywhere but PG and Rose/Richmond are both respectable defenders to throw at Oscar. To me the talent level decides this one. Plus let's stop acting like Laimbeer would slow down KAJ. Laimbeer's defense has gotten a little overrated at this point as he was on an elite defensive team. Never an all-nba defender himself. KAJ would be doubling him in points every game.

Shammyguy3
05-29-2016, 11:05 AM
Sadds team matches up really well but I agree that Montreal wins this series. Can't vote on poll though as I'm on my phone

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 11:32 AM
I hate to go back to the stone age with this one but this matchup begs for it:

KAJ > Laimbeer
Gasol > Bosh
Baylor > Gervin
Richmond > Christie
Rose < Oscar

Montreal is more talented everywhere but PG and Rose/Richmond are both respectable defenders to throw at Oscar. To me the talent level decides this one. Plus let's stop acting like Laimbeer would slow down KAJ. Laimbeer's defense has gotten a little overrated at this point as he was on an elite defensive team. Never an all-nba defender himself. KAJ would be doubling him in points every game.
I never said we'd lock KAJ down. I just said we have respectable bodies to throw. I basically conceded that matchup but I like what we have everywhere else.

The three year prime for Rose he was a Very good mid range shooter one of the best in the league and perhaps his most reliable offense for tight games in the 4th
I never said he wasn't. My point is that u can't use that to claim u have better spacing when your offense is post based.

Completely missed his point
Yup

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 11:59 AM
Well that's not very fair now is it. You can't exactly refer to Bosh and Laimbeer getting wide open froms midrange via kick outs but dismiss Rose and others making the mid range when you said you'd leave them wide open when you double my bigs.
I never said we'd leave them open. You and Shammy are missing the point like Baller said. My point is that it's easier to find open looks on PnR than it is on postups. The ball is not moving and the offense is stagnated more often. It's easier for a guard to dig down on a post-up and recover than it is to help on weak side PnR to leave a shooter open. Post players require more spacing in today's NBA with the zones and stuff. If you had 3 point shooters, I'd have no argument to make on this, but you don't.




Well I wouldn't be playing my backup bigs anyway. KAJ, Pau, Dave D and Baylor will get the C/PF minutes. But basically if I played Butler and Dave D, my offense would be just as good as yours. I mean both Butler and Christie are making 1 3 point shot a game aren't they?
If Debuscherre and Baylor are playing big minutes, then guarding Gervin, that leaves a PG on Dantley...that's just a complete mismatch for an elite scorer, and helps his post game.



I wouldn't consider him a classic 6th man. And all players I'm playing on the wings are strong scorers. I guess you can put him on Dave D, but your biggest worries should be how bad he would stop your offense.

Why isn't he a classic 6th man? How would he stop the offense? He's not completely incapable of passing a basketball lol. Couldn't I argue the same for Baylor then?



1. Half your players wouldn't be as efficient in the system you are running.
2. I never said Rose was those scorers. I said that if those guys aren't ragged for their mid range, Rose shooting as good or better should get the same treatment.
3. In the playoffs, Rose in 2009 shot .412 from 10-16 and .450 from 16 out to inside 3. For 2010, it was .333 and .408. Playoff teams play better defense. A drop off is expected for all players(no to mention these aren't even big drop offs). Don't believe me? Check out the same players I mentioned.
4. Can't see how that "benefits" your defense. Rose shot those numbers over the course of a regular season (when he's open and being guarded). You're leaving him wide open half the time you double team my post players and I've never heard Oscar/Gervin as elite guys on rotations and closing out.
5. Rose has plenty of room to cut to the basket, especially if he is coming from the weak side. Not to mention all my players are strong passers and can rotate the ball well if needed.

already pretty much addressed this. Rose's shooting drops off significantly in the playoffs, and since you said you won't have him shooting 3s, I can just dig down and recover. It's way easier on my defense since I don't have to double. We wouldnt do this on every post-up obviously because that isnt realistic, but we'd do it enough to be effective.




Heat Bosh is a good player and while I don't think he's better than prime Gasol, you're giving up a lot on the boards.
Prime Gasol wasn't "all that" on the boards either...he only got high rebound totals when he went to Chicago. You have an advantage on the boards, but it isn't all that significant with us have Laimbeer.



1. Bosh and Bibby are good. Mitch and Butler combined from 3 make about the same as those 2 though. Christie was garbage in the playoffs from 3 whether you like it or not. Even if my 3 point shooting isn't better, you certainly don't have the advantage you are making it out to be.
I said that 3 pt shooting is more crucial to your offense than mine. your wings/guards (other than Mitch) dont mesh well with your bigs.


2. Gervin is a fine mid range shooter and not taking that away from him at all but kinda horsecrap you refer to that but dismiss my mid range shooters.
already addressed this 800 times on why my mid-range shots will be more effective.



4. Dantley's an elite scorer no doubt, but I'm not worried because he's a blackhole on offense. So I doubt you would to him for long period of time. And if you did play him heavy minutes, I'm not worried because: #1, his teams have never gotten anywhere despite being an elite scorer and I don't expect that to change if you try and take advantage of his scoring abilities. And #2, well you are taking the ball out of Oscar's hands. You already said you'd put him on Tiny so Tiny would get plenty of looks at beating him off the dribble if we are playing both our benches. May as well be trading baskets at that point.

who cares if his teams have done nothing? The point of this game is to have all of these guys on elite teams lol. He's clearly not my best player so that point is irrelevant. Can he be effective during 25 mpg? definitely...


From 1979 (when 3 point shooting was introduced in the NBA) until 1986 (last year KAJ was scoring 20 PPG in the post. He retired in 1989), the most amount of 3's made in 1 season was 92 . So clearly if they aren't taking and making so many 3s for all but 2 seasons in KAJ's entire career, mid range shooting was very prominent in helping him operate and gain space inside

There's no way I'm actually going to believe that the mid range shooters I have would be ineffective when Kareem was playing with his PG/SG/SF taking mid range shots to space the floor for him for half his career since there was no 3 point line. And the 3 point line wasn't even heavily used for the first 5-10 years the 3 point line was in the league, which takes up the 2nd half of Kareem's career. I would bet my life that Kareem was probably getting doubled a lot in his prime and his PG/SG/SF were taking 10-24 foot shots when they played with Kareem for most of his career.

I've basically conceded the KAJ matchup. he will obviously get his. That's why I'm attacking the other areas of your team.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 12:59 PM
I never said we'd leave them open. You and Shammy are missing the point like Baller said.

You said in the 1st page you'd double up in the post a lot, leaving a player wide open.

We can easily cheat off of Rose with Oscar to double alot of their post-ups.



My point is that it's easier to find open looks on PnR than it is on postups. The ball is not moving and the offense is stagnated more often. It's easier for a guard to dig down on a post-up and recover than it is to help on weak side PnR to leave a shooter open. Post players require more spacing in today's NBA with the zones and stuff. If you had 3 point shooters, I'd have no argument to make on this, but you don't.

Sure but when you are giving me open looks, of couse it's easy for me too. You said yourself you'd leave Rose open. An Elite mid range shooter, an explosive slasher, and capable of passing the ball. This isn't magic where Oscar can double 5 feet inside then he will always recover to 15-18 feet out and close out, especially with elite passing big men inside. Rose can shoot the mid range and can beat your man to the inside off the dribble if they are closing out late. Or what if it's not Oscar recovering to close out? What if Mitch Richmond's man is the one closes to Rose? Rose is a good enough passer able to pass the ball. You're going to leave your team wide open for defensive miscues when it comes to rotating because all my players can score with the slightest window.

And really, teams have run the ball from the post all the time. My other players aren't moving around just because KAJ is positing up and the ball isn't moving... You'll have Gasol setting screens to free Mitch/Rose, Rose/Baylor cutting to the basket, Gasol/Rose/Baylor taking the mid range, etc. All of those are big problems if you want to "double alot".

If you say you're going to do that ALOT, then Rose and my other perimeter players are going to get plenty of looks.

Not to mention it's not like post-ups is the only way to get buckets inside. We want to run it because it utilizes Pau and KAJ's passing ability but we can have big men cut to the basket or go through pick and role if needed.The point is we have an advantage inside as your 2 players are lacking, especially on the boards.



If Debuscherre and Baylor are playing big minutes, then guarding Gervin, that leaves a PG on Dantley...that's just a complete mismatch for an elite scorer, and helps his post game.

Can have Baylor on him at times. Baylor played PF in parts of his career in the 60's so he has some experience guarding post players. Dantley would have an advantage but if the ball is out of Oscar's hands, then we'll probably just trade shots in the post at that point.


Why isn't he a classic 6th man? How would he stop the offense? He's not completely incapable of passing a basketball lol. Couldn't I argue the same for Baylor then?

Dantley has always been a black hole... He's known to stop the offense by taking plenty of seconds off the clock and not be very willing to pass the ball. I guess he could be your 6th man but wouldn't you want your 6th man to feed off your schemes? Dantley doesn't do that.

I don't recall Baylor being regarded as a black hole so I don't know about that. He also did play with West and Wilt throughout his career at some point and both got theirs so can't see how he would stop the offense.



already pretty much addressed this. Rose's shooting drops off significantly in the playoffs, and since you said you won't have him shooting 3s, I can just dig down and recover. It's way easier on my defense since I don't have to double. We wouldnt do this on every post-up obviously because that isnt realistic, but we'd do it enough to be effective.

I don't think I said I wouldn't have him shooting 3s. In fact Rose shot 32% from 3 while making 1 3 point shot a game in his best years (part of which he was injured). I just said that he was an elite mid-range player, limiting your opportunities to help in the post.

Rose and Baylor would beat Gervin or Oscar off the dribble if they were distracted enough to help ever so slightly. Neither were good defenders and Rose/Baylor were explosive for their era.


Prime Gasol wasn't "all that" on the boards either...he only got high rebound totals when he went to Chicago. You have an advantage on the boards, but it isn't all that significant with us have Laimbeer.

I was referring to overall boards, not just Bosh vs Pau. Didn't realize you were using the good rebounding Laimbeer, since you tried to refer to him as a 3 point shooter earlier and he never shot the 3 when he was good at the boards. Though yes, you are right with the boards, especially if you want to campaign the bigs at 8-15 feet out.


I said that 3 pt shooting is more crucial to your offense than mine. your wings/guards (other than Mitch) dont mesh well with your bigs.

And I don't buy it. KAJ has spent 18 years of his career with the 3 point shot not existing or mostly irrelevant. Spacing has never been an issue for KAJ in his career.


already addressed this 800 times on why my mid-range shots will be more effective.

I also don't buy it. My mid range players aren't sticks on the ground and won't move when the ball is in the post. Just like how I expect Gervin to be moving when Oscar/Laimber-Bosh are setting P&Rs, my players will no doubt be moving to get open when KAJ and Pau are deep in the post, whether it's screens, cutting to the basket, etc.


who cares if his teams have done nothing? The point of this game is to have all of these guys on elite teams lol. He's clearly not my best player so that point is irrelevant. Can he be effective during 25 mpg? definitely...

I think it's somewhat relevant. Dantley, if he was on the floor, would be the defacto 1st option given his style of play on your team. And in all the years he's played that style, it's led to more losses than wins. He doesn't fit the style you want to play and the style he wants to play has never led him to success.


I've basically conceded the KAJ matchup. he will obviously get his. That's why I'm attacking the other areas of your team.

I didn't bring that up to talk about the KAJ matchup. I brought it up to support that what you are saying about mid-range or post ups isn't true. A player can't go 18 years of his career relying on mid range to give him spacing but then suddenly need 3 point shooters to give him space and operate. Nor do I believe that those wing players didn't capitalize on the slightest space they were given on offense when they tried to help on Kareem.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 01:01 PM
Damn it's close.

Picked saddler by a hair.

Ultimately think his front court would bee too much physically. They'd be a huge + on the boards as well.

Saddler or me? You voted for me in the matchup.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 01:03 PM
I never said he wasn't. My point is that u can't use that to claim u have better spacing when your offense is post based.


Even if I didn't have better spacing than you, it sure as hell shouldn't be a problem. I mean, KAJ did just fine with 18 years of his career without the 3 point shot being relevant/

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 01:48 PM
You said in the 1st page you'd double up in the post a lot, leaving a player wide open.

We can easily cheat off of Rose with Oscar to double alot of their post-ups..
that was before you said you will space Rose with mid-rangers, which isn't a good strategy IMO. Since you're doing that, I can dig and recover, instead of straight doubling.





Sure but when you are giving me open looks, of couse it's easy for me too. You said yourself you'd leave Rose open. An Elite mid range shooter, an explosive slasher, and capable of passing the ball. This isn't magic where Oscar can double 5 feet inside then he will always recover to 15-18 feet out and close out, especially with elite passing big men inside. Rose can shoot the mid range and can beat your man to the inside off the dribble if they are closing out late. Or what if it's not Oscar recovering to close out? What if Mitch Richmond's man is the one closes to Rose? Rose is a good enough passer able to pass the ball. You're going to leave your team wide open for defensive miscues when it comes to rotating because all my players can score with the slightest window.
Obviously you won't be straight posting up every possession so I won't need guards to dig every play. We can do it enough to be effective though. If you wanna post KAJ or Pau, then have Rose in the mid-range, it still makes it tough for Rose to cut inside because there's essentially 4-5 big men clogging inside...


And really, teams have run the ball from the post all the time. My other players aren't moving around just because KAJ is positing up and the ball isn't moving... You'll have Gasol setting screens to free Mitch/Rose, Rose/Baylor cutting to the basket, Gasol/Rose/Baylor taking the mid range, etc. All of those are big problems if you want to "double alot".
I won't double since you said you aren't spacing to the 3 point line with Rose or Baylor. The guys guarding them don't need to double team then. The dig and recover would work way easier since you don't have space stretchers.


Not to mention it's not like post-ups is the only way to get buckets inside. We want to run it because it utilizes Pau and KAJ's passing ability but we can have big men cut to the basket or go through pick and role if needed.The point is we have an advantage inside as your 2 players are lacking, especially on the boards.
How does Laimbeer lack on boards? Like I said, prime Pau was never an elite rebounder. His totals have only gone up recently since he's a Center now. His teams get out-rebounded when he's on the court. Last year he was one of the worst in the league at giving up offensive rebounds.

http://public.tableau.com/views/RebsAndContests/Dashboard2?:embed=y&:loadOrderID=1&:display_count=yes&:showTabs=y




Dantley has always been a black hole... He's known to stop the offense by taking plenty of seconds off the clock and not be very willing to pass the ball. I guess he could be your 6th man but wouldn't you want your 6th man to feed off your schemes? Dantley doesn't do that.
Why couldn't he? We have good shooters in our rotation to space for him. Not EVERY bucket he scored was a post-up...


On the court, the athletic Dantley was as smooth an outside shooter as could be, a force on the inside with an explosive first step, and a master of psychology. Sometimes he intentionally allowed his first shot of the game to be blocked, and then, for the rest of the night, he used his patented head fake to burn his defender. Dantley also lured opponents into unsuccessful steal attempts by dribbling the ball very high. Off the court, Dantley chose his words carefully. He spoke with conviction and honesty, sometimes at the expense of diplomacy.
I don't recall Baylor being regarded as a black hole so I don't know about that. He also did play with West and Wilt throughout his career at some point and both got theirs so can't see how he would stop the offense.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/dantley_bio.html

he wasn't a 1-dimensional offensive player. impossible to be with that efficiency.




Rose and Baylor would beat Gervin or Oscar off the dribble if they were distracted enough to help ever so slightly. Neither were good defenders and Rose/Baylor were explosive for their era.

and it'd be easy to collapse the paint with the lack of other shooters...


I was referring to overall boards, not just Bosh vs Pau. Didn't realize you were using the good rebounding Laimbeer, since you tried to refer to him as a 3 point shooter earlier and he never shot the 3 when he was good at the boards. Though yes, you are right with the boards, especially if you want to campaign the bigs at 8-15 feet out.
I never said I was using old Laimbeer. But his great mid-range game would still help Oscar on pick n pop.



I think it's somewhat relevant. Dantley, if he was on the floor, would be the defacto 1st option given his style of play on your team. And in all the years he's played that style, it's led to more losses than wins. He doesn't fit the style you want to play and the style he wants to play has never led him to success.
It's irrelevant because he never had close to this amount of talent on one of his teams.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 01:50 PM
I think the score is 5-4 you, with Shammy's vote, and assuming Ebbs made a typo and meant to say he voted for you. Could possibly be that he voted for the wrong person on accident, but he can clear that up.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 02:48 PM
that was before you said you will space Rose with mid-rangers, which isn't a good strategy IMO. Since you're doing that, I can dig and recover, instead of straight doubling..

That still leaves plenty of opportunities for my team to score. You're not going to recover 100% of the time, especially when the guys recovering aren't elite defenders.



Obviously you won't be straight posting up every possession so I won't need guards to dig every play. We can do it enough to be effective though. If you wanna post KAJ or Pau, then have Rose in the mid-range, it still makes it tough for Rose to cut inside because there's essentially 4-5 big men clogging inside... .

The court isn't as small as you are making it out to be. Players can cut to the basket if for example, KAJ is on the low post left side and Pau is say on the high post right side.

.

I won't double since you said you aren't spacing to the 3 point line with Rose or Baylor. The guys guarding them don't need to double team then. The dig and recover would work way easier since you don't have space stretchers..

Well Rose makes 1 3 on 32% shooting, which isn't the best but would provide 3 point threat. Rose isn't camping out at 15 range either all the time. He can be at the 3 point line then step in for the mid range if needed.



How does Laimbeer lack on boards? Like I said, prime Pau was never an elite rebounder. His totals have only gone up recently since he's a Center now. His teams get out-rebounded when he's on the court. Last year he was one of the worst in the league at giving up offensive rebounds..

Laimbeer isn't lacking on the boards by himself but he's going to have to make up for Bosh's lack of rebounding (around 7 per game with the Heat). And the lack of 2nd opportunities will come into play since you just said you'll use them in pick and pop and mid range on offense. Good thing I'm not usnig 2015 Gasol either and Kareem ate rebounds.



Why couldn't he? We have good shooters in our rotation to space for him. Not EVERY bucket he scored was a post-up...

Even if it's not a post up, he's still trapped in his ISO based world.



http://www.nba.com/history/players/dantley_bio.html

he wasn't a 1-dimensional offensive player. impossible to be with that efficiency.


I don't think I said he was 1 dimensional. I said that he's a black hole who stops the ball movement you want to promote.





and it'd be easy to collapse the paint with the lack of other shooters...

Worked fine from 1980s and earlier. Like actually more than fine. How do you think Oscar and Kareem played when they teamed up in the early 70s? You think Oscar was passing to 3 point shooters when he was trying to drive when he had an opportunity because they focused on Kareem in the post? You're also dismissing the spacing on my team. They aren't playing on a elementary school basketball court and I have good passers at all positions to rotate the ball.



I never said I was using old Laimbeer. But his great mid-range game would still help Oscar on pick n pop.

I know I realized that but you referred to his 3 point shooting earlier when it was non-existent when he was in his prime.



It's irrelevant because he never had close to this amount of talent on one of his teams.

I don't think that's an indicator that he would change his style and play a role to benefit the team. And his style of play probably wouldn't translate to success anyway.


I think you're placing too much emphasis on lack of 3 point shooting on my team. Your team doesn't have strong 3 point threats either. They certainly aren't making them at a high clip and Bosh/Christie are doing it at around 35-37% clip in the regular season wtih about 2.5 3FGM a game. So I'm not trading post up shots for 3's here. Im I was going after post shots and Curry was making 10 3 pointers a game, then yes there's concern. But we're trading post shots for mid range shots. Both baskets end up with 2 points and I'm going to make them are a higher rate than you will if it all balances out.

KAJ has been effective with mid range shooters most of his career and I'll bet that his mid range shooters weren't struggling either so that isn't a problem.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 03:53 PM
That still leaves plenty of opportunities for my team to score. You're not going to recover 100% of the time, especially when the guys recovering aren't elite defenders.
of course it won't work 100% of the time...that's not realistic. If it works 65-70% of the time that we do it, I'd say that's a win for me.




The court isn't as small as you are making it out to be. Players can cut to the basket if for example, KAJ is on the low post left side and Pau is say on the high post right side.

It's easier to help and squeeze the paint tho when u have only 1 3pt shooter in your lineup.



Laimbeer isn't lacking on the boards by himself but he's going to have to make up for Bosh's lack of rebounding (around 7 per game with the Heat). And the lack of 2nd opportunities will come into play since you just said you'll use them in pick and pop and mid range on offense. Good thing I'm not usnig 2015 Gasol either and Kareem ate rebounds.

We also have Oscar, probably the best rebounding guard ever. It won't just be Laimbeer and Bosh battling for boards.



I don't think I said he was 1 dimensional. I said that he's a black hole who stops the ball movement you want to promote.

u kept implying that the only we he can score is on postups and slogging the offense. He can easily attack closeouts, isolate/score in several different ways.



Worked fine from 1980s and earlier. Like actually more than fine. How do you think Oscar and Kareem played when they teamed up in the early 70s? You think Oscar was passing to 3 point shooters when he was trying to drive when he had an opportunity because they focused on Kareem in the post? You're also dismissing the spacing on my team. They aren't playing on a elementary school basketball court and I have good passers at all positions to rotate the ball.
the game and strategies were so different back then. The game is smarter now than it was back then.



I know I realized that but you referred to his 3 point shooting earlier when it was non-existent when he was in his prime.

I don't think I mentioned Laimbeer once as a 3 point shooter. Just as a pick n pop player and taking solid shots.



I think you're placing too much emphasis on lack of 3 point shooting on my team. Your team doesn't have strong 3 point threats either. They certainly aren't making them at a high clip and Bosh/Christie are doing it at around 35-37% clip in the regular season wtih about 2.5 3FGM a game. So I'm not trading post up shots for 3's here. Im I was going after post shots and Curry was making 10 3 pointers a game, then yes there's concern. But we're trading post shots for mid range shots. Both baskets end up with 2 points and I'm going to make them are a higher rate than you will if it all balances out.

KAJ has been effective with mid range shooters most of his career and I'll bet that his mid range shooters weren't struggling either so that isn't a problem.

you're missing the point. this is the last time i'm gonna explain. comparing 3pt shooters has nothing to do with my argument. Your offense is more dependant on 3s because you have post players and they need space, where as for me, I have a PnR based offense, which has more movement and requires more help rotations than post-ups do. On a post up, the ball is pretty much stationary and all u need is 1 help rotation that is really easy to recover on. For PnR, it requires at least 3 defenders (the guy getting screened, the big, and the strong side defender bumping the roller. My lineup has 5 good shooters to help my PnR based offense get going.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 04:34 PM
Actually, no Im not missing the point. You keep referring to my offense needing to rely on 3 point shooting for spacing when thats not true. No doubt its better to have 3 point shooting but mid range shooters around post players been effective for 40 years in the NBA. KAJ hasNEVER had a problem with mid range shooters in his career. Its even less of a problem given the fact that despite me not having 3 point shooters all around, neither do you. Im not trying to dispute that your team doesnt benefit from mid range shooters in a PNR offense. Im saying that because yoir offense is so heavily based on mid range shots, Im not giving up an extra point that I would otherwose be giving up from a 3 point shooter. So we are trading mid range shots for post shots. Even with yoir strong shooters, thats not going to cancel out higher % shots inside.

Exactly how high of a % do you expect to shoot from mid ramge and how low do you expect me to shoot from inside the post%?

Ill address everything else when I get home.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 04:50 PM
theres no issue with KAJ amd mid range shooters. Hes never had issues with mid ramge shooters inside the post. So his ability to operate isnt a problem. And any advantage I am giving up from my "lack of 3 point shooters" isnt going to be capitalized on since you're not making much more 3s than me anyway. So whatever baskets we trade are all 2 points.

What exactly are you capitalzing on here then? Pick and pop/ mid range isnt going to result in higher fg% than post shots and consiering KAJ has dominated with less space than Im giving him, hes probably not going to be limited enough inside the post.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 05:47 PM
Also help me understand when you mean the game being different then and now is going to help your team?

Teams in the 80s and earlier ran with less spacing and have done well. What type of advances defensively since them are you thinking about that changes the way youre going to play defense than they did 30/40 years ago? What you bring up (digging and doubling) is probably no different tham what they did in the 70/80s anyways.

Theres been bigger change on offense by far, especially woth incorporating 3 point shots but not like you'll be able to taje advantage of it since your offense isnt built for it anyways.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 07:06 PM
Also help me understand when you mean the game being different then and now is going to help your team?

Teams in the 80s and earlier ran with less spacing and have done well. What type of advances defensively since them are you thinking about that changes the way youre going to play defense than they did 30/40 years ago? What you bring up (digging and doubling) is probably no different tham what they did in the 70/80s anyways.

Theres been bigger change on offense by far, especially woth incorporating 3 point shots but not like you'll be able to taje advantage of it since your offense isnt built for it anyways.

Back then there wasn't as much doubling and zoning off of bad shooters to swarm post players like today's game. That's why people complain about Bigs having it hard now and guards having it easier without handcheck. In the 90s it was simpler with the illegal defense rules. You couldnt zone off of terrible shooters. You always had to be guarding someone. Plus the 70's was like the weakest era of basketball, so of course Oscar (old) and KAJ would dominate

I don't know why you keep bringing up KAJ. I conceded the matchup lol. It's obvious he'll get his, just like it's obvious Oscar would get his. I just think my role players around my stars fit better than yours do. Rose isn't really a great general to setup your bigs, and Baylor is a pretty inefficient, high volume scorer that will surely take away KAJ and Pau's touches (like you're claiming Dantley would do to me, although Baylor is playing WAY more minutes)

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 07:20 PM
of course it won't work 100% of the time...that's not realistic. If it works 65-70% of the time that we do it, I'd say that's a win for me.

Based on what? And that's the issue I'm having a hard time understanding. I don't ever recall KAJ having any issues operating inside the post despite lacking 3 point shooters. He's had plenty of spacing to operate despite mid range shooters. I also don't ever his mid range shooters having trouble shooting the mid range, let alone giving them enough space for 35% of the time.



It's easier to help and squeeze the paint tho when u have only 1 3pt shooter in your lineup.

It's easier to squeeze the paint, sure. But I have 4 strong mid range shooters (1 of which can shoot a 3) in Rose/Pau/Baylor/Mitch. That's enough space to operate inside.


We also have Oscar, probably the best rebounding guard ever. It won't just be Laimbeer and Bosh battling for boards.

I'd include Baylor then if you include Oscar, who was a better rebounder than Oscar during their era. I think we both know I'll get more rebounds but I'm more concerned about pointing out your 2nd chance opportunities. Bosh/Laimbeer would probably lose the battle on the boards as it is, but moving them to mid range drastically limits their offensive rebounding, which would be very important in a mid range offense.



u kept implying that the only we he can score is on postups and slogging the offense. He can easily attack closeouts, isolate/score in several different ways.

But that's the basis of his game... Obviously he can do different things but unless we are changing his role on your team, that's how he's going to generally play for the 25 MPG you allocated for him. He doesn't suddenly play better in the flow of the game just because you want him to (which was already discussed in the lounge with other players).



the game and strategies were so different back then. The game is smarter now than it was back then.


How much has digging and doubling really changed the past 30-40 years? Are you referring to say when to double KAJ, etc? Because it that's the case, whatever advances there are in how to defend the post, there's going to be advances for me in how to mitigate that. It all cancels out.

What we do know is KAJ never had a problem with the space he had before. So I can't see how the spacing on my team drastically affect how my players play in the post.


I don't think I mentioned Laimbeer once as a 3 point shooter. Just as a pick n pop player and taking solid shots.

Maybe I may have misunderstood or confused with someone else. But if you are using him in the mid range, despite his ability to shoot, the effectiveness of the midrange is not as rewarding as a post shot or a 3 point shot unless he is hitting it at a really high clip.


You're missing the point. this is the last time i'm gonna explain. comparing 3pt shooters has nothing to do with my argument. Your offense is more dependant on 3s because you have post players and they need space,where as for me, I have a PnR based offense, which has more movement and requires more help rotations than post-ups do. On a post up, the ball is pretty much stationary and all u need is 1 help rotation that is really easy to recover on. For PnR, it requires at least 3 defenders (the guy getting screened, the big, and the strong side defender bumping the roller. My lineup has 5 good shooters to help my PnR based offense get going.

While it benefits my post players from having 3 point shooters as it gives them space, not having them doesn't hinder their ability to play inside.

I'm not denying your team's offense doesn't benefit from your mid range shooters. What I'm arguing is despite that, the risk/reward with a mid range shot compared to a 3 point shot and the post shot isn't all that appealing.

You're not going to be hitting your mid range at a clip to that of a post opportunity. And while you may shoot better %s from mid range compared to your average 3 point shot, the expected points would still favour the 3 point shooting. So you can have the best shooting mid range team all you want but unless they are hitting mid range shots at a very high clip, the expected result shouldn't overcome that of post opportunities.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 07:38 PM
Back then there wasn't as much doubling and zoning off of bad shooters to swarm post players like today's game. That's why people complain about Bigs having it hard now and guards having it easier without handcheck. In the 90s it was simpler with the illegal defense rules. You couldnt zone off of terrible shooters. You always had to be guarding someone. Plus the 70's was like the weakest era of basketball, so of course Oscar (old) and KAJ would dominate

Then any adjustments defensively you can try to argue would help you would just be countered by the advances on offense. It's all a wash. All I've heard you refer to was double and dig down. There surely can't be that much advances that would make it a game changer. And the benefits we both get from restricted area and zone rules probably washes out anyway.


I don't know why you keep bringing up KAJ. I conceded the matchup lol. It's obvious he'll get his, just like it's obvious Oscar would get his. I just think my role players around my stars fit better than yours do. Rose isn't really a great general to setup your bigs, and Baylor is a pretty inefficient, high volume scorer that will surely take away KAJ and Pau's touches (like you're claiming Dantley would do to me, although Baylor is playing WAY more minutes)

Then who exactly does the issue of spacing affect so much that it changes up this series? KAJ is going to get his like you said (he was a 6 time MVP without 3 point shooting then and he'd be the same player now). And all the guys I got have skillsets that can play off KAJ, even if it doesn't maximize their abilities. Sure Rose is great with slashing and probably won't utilize that as much but he was also an elite mid range shooter (and as Shammy said, it was his most reliable offensive skillset close games). Mitch plays off KAJ well. Gasol can hit the mid range and play in the high post if needed. Baylor was a good mid range shooter.

The 2 main concerns with lacking 3 point shooters should be that it clogs the paint for inside scoring and that I am susceptible to trading 2 point shots with 3 point shots. Well it's already been proven that my post players shouldn't have the hardest time getting inside and scoring. And I don't have to worry about trading my 2 point shots with my opponent's 3 point shots (and me giving up that 1 extra point) since you have no 3 point shooting anyway.

Baylor played with West and Wilt so I am not too concerned about that. Because the difference between Dantley and Baylor is that Dantley's offense won't benefit the schemes you want to run. I wasn't arguing about the touches. Just that the touches he gets don't benefit what he generally likes to do.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 07:47 PM
Then any adjustments defensively you can try to argue would help you would just be countered by the advances on offense. It's all a wash. All I've heard you refer to was double and dig down. There surely can't be that much advances that would make it a game changer. And the benefits we both get from restricted area and zone rules probably washes out anyway.
you haven't named any counters...all you've said is space Rose with mid-range shots.



Then who exactly does the issue of spacing affect so much that it changes up this series? KAJ is going to get his like you said (he was a 6 time MVP without 3 point shooting then and he'd be the same player now). And all the guys I got have skillsets that can play off KAJ, even if it doesn't maximize their abilities. Sure Rose is great with slashing and probably won't utilize that as much but he was also an elite mid range shooter (and as Shammy said, it was his most reliable offensive skillset close games). Mitch plays off KAJ well. Gasol can hit the mid range and play in the high post if needed. Baylor was a good mid range shooter.
The guys around him? Pau not as effective, Rose not as effective, Baylor not as effective.


The 2 main concerns with lacking 3 point shooters should be that it clogs the paint for inside scoring and that I am susceptible to trading 2 point shots with 3 point shots. Well it's already been proven that my post players shouldn't have the hardest time getting inside and scoring. And I don't have to worry about trading my 2 point shots with my opponent's 3 point shots (and me giving up that 1 extra point) since you have no 3 point shooting anyway.

How don't I have 3 point shooters? Bosh, Bibby, Christie??? Even prince was above average in his prime, although it was low volume.


Baylor played with West and Wilt so I am not too concerned about that. Because the difference between Dantley and Baylor is that Dantley's offense won't benefit the schemes you want to run. I wasn't arguing about the touches. Just that the touches he gets don't benefit what he generally likes to do.

How doesn't it benefit my scheme? When he comes off the bench he has more than enough space with Bibby, Prince, and West around him. Baylor doesn't have the best efficiency and has much higher volume than even Dantley. You should be concerned with it.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 08:12 PM
you haven't named any counters...all you've said is space Rose with mid-range shots.

I've mentioned plenty of ways to use Rose. You said you wanted to sag off Rose to help down low. I'm telling you that Rose is an elite shooter and can hit the mid range if Oscar doesn't recover. Rose has the option to beat him off the dribble if they don't close out fast enough and get to the basket. If you close out on him on his way to the basket, then he'll drive and kick to Pau or Baylor or Mitch for the open mid range/3 point shot. I have strong passers at all 5 positions. They'll all be moving around when my players are in the post. So I have utilize strong ball movement if needed


The guys around him? Pau not as effective, Rose not as effective, Baylor not as effective.

Not maximizing their abilities doesn't mean they can't be effective. It doesn't play to their strengths but that doesn't mean they can't execute. It doesn't matter to me if Rose is only half the player he is because he's not slashing the ball as much. Because he still offers what I need in some capacity as an elite mid range shooter and feeds off what I need from KAJ.


How don't I have 3 point shooters? Bosh, Bibby, Christie??? Even prince was above average in his prime, although it was low volume.

Bosh is fun and while he didn't play in the playoffs the past few years when he was a better 3 point shooter, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Christie couldn't hack it in the playoffs. Bibby is fun but I don't know how much you plan to play him and how many minutes will be taken off Oscar. The volume of those 3 point shooters isn't going change the series. You'll be making like what, four to five 3 pointers a game? Mitch makes 2 to 3 in a game on his own and Rose/Butler can contribute 1 each.



How doesn't it benefit my scheme? When he comes off the bench he has more than enough space with Bibby, Prince, and West around him. Baylor doesn't have the best efficiency and has much higher volume than even Dantley. You should be concerned with it.

I assumed you'd play him a lot with your starters, where you emphasized P&P. But if he's playing mostly with the bench, then my team would probably feast on Bibby, Prince, Dantley, West, Ratliff anyway as I'm playing a tighter rotation so my starters would have a good amount of minutes against your bench. Baylor has played with guys like West and Wilt before. While he's taking going to be my 2nd option, I don't see it as a bigger problem especially when he wasn't known to stop the floor of the offense as far as I have heard.

KnicksorBust
05-29-2016, 08:14 PM
I love reading these nerd bball battles as much as anyone but at some point you have to just admit Raps team is far more talented and Sadds has no answer for KAJ.

The_Jamal
05-29-2016, 08:17 PM
Good fight boys, love seeing the 2 GMs go at it.

-Can't claim Prince and Christie would slow Baylor and that Gervin would just have free reign. I could see Baylor having a big series on the boards with Sadds putting smaller bodies on him, other than Prince, who gets limited run probably.

- That said, I don't see a reasonable answer for Oscar or Gervin either. We knew Raps would struggle vs perimeter heavy teams, and he ran into a bad matchup in the first round. Dave D is a good defender, but I he's not someone who can handle an athlete like Gervin

-I love the High-low possibilities from KAJ and Pau. Some seriously great passing and both bigs had a good jumper.

This was a lot closer than I'd thought it be, but for me, it comes down to KAJ being far and away the best player in this series and he's the guy I'd trust in game 7 with HCA in the 4th. Bill/Theo/Bosh defensive paint just isn't enough defensive acumen for me to believe they would slow KAJ enough to force him into a bad series. And while Oscar and Gervin are big mismatches, they still have to do a majority of their damage in the paint, where KAJ is waiting. That and Raps overall talent level lets him move on to round 2.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 08:19 PM
I've mentioned plenty of ways to use Rose. You said you wanted to sag off Rose to help down low. I'm telling you that Rose is an elite shooter and can hit the mid range if Oscar doesn't recover. Rose has the option to beat him off the dribble if they don't close out fast enough and get to the basket. If you close out on him on his way to the basket, then he'll drive and kick to Pau or Baylor or Mitch for the open mid range/3 point shot. I have strong passers at all 5 positions. They'll all be moving around when my players are in the post. So I have utilize strong ball movement if needed



Not maximizing their abilities doesn't mean they can't be effective. It doesn't play to their strengths but that doesn't mean they can't execute. It doesn't matter to me if Rose is only half the player he is because he's not slashing the ball as much. Because he still offers what I need in some capacity as an elite mid range shooter and feeds off what I need from KAJ.



Bosh is fun and while he didn't play in the playoffs the past few years when he was a better 3 point shooter, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Christie couldn't hack it in the playoffs. Bibby is fun but I don't know how much you plan to play him and how many minutes will be taken off Oscar. The volume of those 3 point shooters isn't going change the series. You'll be making like what, four to five 3 pointers a game? Mitch makes 2 to 3 in a game on his own and Rose/Butler can contribute 1 each.




I assumed you'd play him a lot with your starters, where you emphasized P&P. But if he's playing mostly with the bench, then my team would probably feast on Bibby, Prince, Dantley, West, Ratliff anyway as I'm playing a tighter rotation so my starters would have a good amount of minutes against your bench.
The point about Christie's shooting could also be said about Rose's in the playoffs. His shooting falls off a cliff and dips below 40% in his prime. I've also explained why Rose wouldnt be as effective slashing, as your lineup is easy to collapse against.

Dantley will play with both starters and bench obviously.

The debate is going in circles now. We're like 2 old men yelling at clouds. I'll just wait for more votes. The lack of votes is a joke these days.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-29-2016, 08:20 PM
The point about Christie's shooting could also be said about Rose's in the playoffs. His shooting falls off a cliff and dips below 40% in his prime

Dantley will play with both starters and bench obviously.

The debate is going in circles now. We're like 2 old men yelling at clouds. I'll just wait for more votes. The lack of votes is a joke these days.

Ok yea we're not going to convince voters any more than what we've already said.

Sadds The Gr8
05-29-2016, 08:23 PM
I love reading these nerd bball battles as much as anyone but at some point you have to just admit Raps team is far more talented and Sadds has no answer for KAJ.

I think the debate was worth it with the score so close. If it was a blowout like the other 3 matchups, I woulda shut up along time ago lol

Ebbs
05-30-2016, 12:10 AM
9 votes and Valade thinks PSD voting means more than Twitter...

PatsSoxKnicks
05-30-2016, 03:04 AM
how? Richmond is your only above average 3pt shooter. I have Bosh, Bibby, Christie who are all above average. Gervin is a legendary mid-range shooter, and Dantley one of the most efficient scorers of his era. My guys will be getting better shots with pick n roll movement. Your offense will be stagnant with post-ups. It'll be way harder to contain my offense with the constant pick n rolls, Gervin slashing and isolating, and 2 pick n pop big men. If you had a pure point like Billups who could run the offense and drain 3s, then I'd be in trouble. But a guy like Rose just doesn't fit your offense.

Your offense is more reliant on 3 pointers to space for post threats. My offense is drive n kick/pick n pop or roll based so we don't need as much gunners. We still have a good enough amount of shooters to keep defenses honest. Like I said, Bibby is a great shooter, Bosh is an elite mid-range shooter and has become an above average 3 point shooter, Laimbeer was dependant on the mid-range game, West also an elite mid-ranger in his prime, and Gervin was legendary in the 12-17 ft area.


Bosh was an elite face-up big, and could easily take it to Gasol. Gasol only had success guarding post-up guys near the rim. Bosh is too quick for Gasol to handle, especially in pick n pop situations. Laimbeer isn't the offensive threat Bosh is but he's still a very good mid-range shooter. It's easier to hit wide-open mid-range shots than it is to hit contested post shots with the threat of double teams, in today's game. These guys won't be relying on isolation mid-rangers...it'll be Oscar slashing and drawing doubles to kick out for them (3 pointers for Bosh). We all know Bosh is one of the best mid-range shooters in the league, and has become a good 3pt threat of late.


I never said we'd leave them open. You and Shammy are missing the point like Baller said. My point is that it's easier to find open looks on PnR than it is on postups. The ball is not moving and the offense is stagnated more often. It's easier for a guard to dig down on a post-up and recover than it is to help on weak side PnR to leave a shooter open. Post players require more spacing in today's NBA with the zones and stuff. If you had 3 point shooters, I'd have no argument to make on this, but you don't.


Liked these points by Sadds. Ended up voting for him because while I voted Raps as the higher seed, I like the matchups and Sadds offense a bit better. I know Kareem is the best player in this series but just not a fan of the fit around him. Also, post-ups are generally more stagnant and I'm not convinced on Raps spacing to make the post ups work. Prefer the pick and roll based offense from Sadds and I really like the matchup Oscar has. I do think it's possible Oscar could dominate his matchup moreso than Kareem does.

Also, is Pau really better than Bosh? Offensively maybe but I feel like defensively, Bosh makes it up. I feel like looking at their impact stats may be more important given their roles in this series than their pure box score stats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-R9RXLp6eYuRcptQIQVTBIkLrxvrTCfLh_WB2P-DBwE/edit#gid=0

Even if Pau is better, I feel like Bosh would do more for Sadds offense/defense than Pau would for Raps team. Pau's not that great on defense and on offense, Raps is running his offense through Kareem.

Anyways, this one was tough, could go back and forth over and over and maybe if I hadn't decided to vote on this at 3 am, I may have voted for Raps :laugh2:

valade16
05-30-2016, 08:00 AM
9 votes and Valade thinks PSD voting means more than Twitter...

:laugh2:

It seems you were right on that one. Perhaps we should do it on Twitter next time.

KnicksorBust
05-30-2016, 09:47 AM
9 votes and Valade thinks PSD voting means more than Twitter...

Might be the wave of the future for these games but voter quality would drop significantly. A twitter voter who instantly clicks and moves on in 3 seconds isn't going to care about benches / chemistry / older players. It'd be like "hmm who has the 2 best players?" #starzzz Plus no thread debate which is one of the best parts of these games imo.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2016, 07:08 PM
I wasn't going to cast my vote because I honestly couldn't make up my mind. Tough 7 game series for sure. Ultimately, I made my decision. I was debating who would dominate more, Oscar or Kareem. Seeing as how I believe both would absolutely destroy their match-up.

In the end I just felt like Kareem would be the deciding factor. Hell of matchup. Loved both teams.

In 7 games, Montreal wins.