PDA

View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting - 1 v 8 (ABA)



Ebbs
05-28-2016, 03:51 PM
Once again this year users on the forum partook in an all time snake redraft with players over the history of the sport we all love. GMs drafted players based on their 3 season peaks and assumed 100% health. Via the draft and trades they tried to compile the best team they could. Please look at the teams posted below and decide which one would win in a 7 game series. The higher seed has home court advantage. After you've carefully thought about which team would win, please vote on the poll. If you can't please post in the thread stating which team you think wins and I can add it to the poll



1. La Habra
PG: Chauncey Billups (X)/ Kyrie Irving (X)
SG: Kobe Bryant (X)/ Gail Goodrich (X)
SF: Peja Stojakovic (X)/ Gerald Wallace (X)
PF: Elton Brand (X)/ Paul Millsap (X)
C: Shaquille O'Neal(X) / Bill Cartwright (X)


8. Worcester
PG: Alvin Robertson | Sam Cassell
SG: James Harden | Sam Jones
SF: Ron Artest | Bob Dandridge
PF: Blake Griffin | Anthony Mason
C: Wilt Chamberlain | Zydrunas Ilgauskas

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 03:58 PM
Wow.... This is actually a really, really good 1 vs. 8 matchup. I'm actually surprised that Worcester team is an 8 seed. How does a team with Wilt, Harden, Blake and two all-time great defenders at their respective positions end up as an 8 seed? Hell, that team is so good that Sam freakin' Jones is on the bench! That being said, obviously La Habra is beastly, but this is no cake walk. I'll need to see some debate before making a decision.

Quinnsanity
05-28-2016, 04:08 PM
With MBT on the quality of Worcester, I had them a bit higher, but La Habra wins this.

Ebbs
05-28-2016, 04:12 PM
Harden > Kobe on offense?

Wilt > Shaq?

Artest is a DPOY, Alvin is a DPOY.

Blake and Brand is fun for the Clippers and all eight of their fans.

Lakers + Giants
05-28-2016, 05:58 PM
I'll post more later. I'll start it off with this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=artesro01

Kobe has actually always done well vs Artest. 48%FG 41%3P vs Artest/MWP in 20 regular season meetings. Kobe also has the edge in wins, 15-5.

Meanwhile, Artest has exerted all his energy on defense and been unsuccessful at that. While being completely useless on offense as well.. 38% FG shooting 26%3P.

I think it's fair to say Worcester has no answer for Kobe.

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 06:09 PM
I'll post more later. I'll start it off with this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=artesro01

Kobe has actually always done well vs Artest. 48%FG 41%3P vs Artest/MWP in 20 regular season meetings. Kobe also has the edge in wins, 15-5.

Meanwhile, Artest has exerted all his energy on defense and been unsuccessful at that. While being completely useless on offense as well.. 38% FG shooting 26%3P.

I think it's fair to say Worcester has no answer for Kobe.

Not really an apples to apples comparison, though, is it? You're assuming they always defended each other, but considering Kobe is 2 and Artest has always historically been a 3, I think we can assume that's not the case. Did Artest probably defend Kobe the majority of the time they were on the floor together? I think we can all safely assume that to be the case, but I don't think the reverse is true at all. So I'd be less inclined to want to trust that data.

Edit: Looking at the data, I see three of those matchups were when Artest was in Houston. As someone who remembers those matchups all too well, I can tell you that Battier was generally used as the primary defender against Kobe when he and Artest were on the floor together.

Lakers + Giants
05-28-2016, 06:30 PM
Not really an apples to apples comparison, though, is it? You're assuming they always defended each other, but considering Kobe is 2 and Artest has always historically been a 3, I think we can assume that's not the case. Did Artest probably defend Kobe the majority of the time they were on the floor together? I think we can all safely assume that to be the case, but I don't think the reverse is true at all. So I'd be less inclined to want to trust that data.

Edit: Looking at the data, I see three of those matchups were when Artest was in Houston. As someone who remembers those matchups all too well, I can tell you that Battier was generally used as the primary defender against Kobe when he and Artest were on the floor together.

Oh, I do know battier was the primary defender when Artest was in Houston, but I mean I think Its safe to say that on those Chicago/Indiana/Sacramento teams Artest was one of if not the primary defender on Kobe.

Also, Im not saying Kobe guarded Artest, Im saying that when Artest guarded Kobe he exerted all his energy to the point where his offense suffered because of it. As evident by those numbers, Artest was even more inefficient than usual his usual self.

xnick5757
05-28-2016, 06:47 PM
I think that this is a great matchup for my team (worcester).

We have the best player on the floor, in Wilt. On defense, there are some great matchups for us. Kobe can be guarded by a duo of Artest/Robertson, two DPOYs (with whoever is not on Kobe guarding whoever their 2nd best 1-4 on the floor is).

Overall, our strategy is going to make them run. Wilt, Blake, and Harden are 3 of the greatest athletes that the NBA has ever seen and would wreck havoc on fastbreaks.

My biggest question for La Habra is who guards Harden? Kobe can absolutely not cover him for an entire game. Harden's ability to draw fouls when he goes to the basket will also likely lead to Shaq being in foul trouble often.

Also, our bench is much better than theirs. The two Sams provide clutch shooting, Dandridge is an excellent 6th man, and Mason provides great toughness off the bench.

xnick5757
05-28-2016, 06:57 PM
Harden > Kobe on offense?



There's also this ^

for reference, Kobe's best offensive season vs Harden's (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2006&p1=bryanko01&y2=2015&p2=hardeja01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=)


Kobe scored more points, but Harden was much more efficient (.559 TS% vs .605). Kobe's USG% that season was also 7% higher than Harden's.

With Harden and Wilt, I have two of the most efficient volume scorers of all time. Given the fact that La Habra has no true shutdown defenders, that's going to be tough to stop.

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2016, 07:01 PM
Wow.... This is actually a really, really good 1 vs. 8 matchup. I'm actually surprised that Worcester team is an 8 seed. How does a team with Wilt, Harden, Blake and two all-time great defenders at their respective positions end up as an 8 seed? Hell, that team is so good that Sam freakin' Jones is on the bench! That being said, obviously La Habra is beastly, but this is no cake walk. I'll need to see some debate before making a decision.

yea Worcester was underrated IMO. I had them 4th. Too bad...matched up with the best team in the game.

Lakers + Giants
05-28-2016, 08:11 PM
I think that this is a great matchup for my team (worcester).

We have the best player on the floor, in Wilt. On defense, there are some great matchups for us. Kobe can be guarded by a duo of Artest/Robertson, two DPOYs (with whoever is not on Kobe guarding whoever their 2nd best 1-4 on the floor is).

Overall, our strategy is going to make them run. Wilt, Blake, and Harden are 3 of the greatest athletes that the NBA has ever seen and would wreck havoc on fastbreaks.

My biggest question for La Habra is who guards Harden? Kobe can absolutely not cover him for an entire game. Harden's ability to draw fouls when he goes to the basket will also likely lead to Shaq being in foul trouble often.

Also, our bench is much better than theirs. The two Sams provide clutch shooting, Dandridge is an excellent 6th man, and Mason provides great toughness off the bench.

1st point. Best player on the floor is Wilt? Honestly, Im not sure Wilt would do so well vs Shaq, sure Wilt dominated in his era, and would still do well in the modern era, but he never faced a behemoth with the sheer strength and physical presence that Shaq had. Don't let Shaq's frame fool you, he could get down the floor too, and on the other end Wilt would struggle with his frame to hold down Shaq. No way Wilt is the best player on the floor, that's Shaq.

2. Ron Artest actually didn't do so well as a "kobe stopper", he actually struggled to defend kobe and it made him waste so much energy defensively that he ended up hurting his team on offense...

Say you switch Robertson on Kobe after realizing Artest can't slow kobe down? Kobe's post game is 2nd to only MJ in terms of SGs. He'd easily take Robertson down low and abuse the height advantage. Kobe's patented post up fadeaway or faceup Jumper will be there all game long if Robertson is guarding him. He'd just abuse Robertson rather easily.

3. Billups and Gerald Wallace (12 minutes off the bench) will be guarding Harden. Theyre both great defenders and would at least make life difficult for Harden. They've both been named on All defensive teams so I trust their ability to limit Harden offensively without getting in foul trouble.

4. Who will Harden be hiding on? Billups? Peja? Talk about field day for those guys... They're both already elite in terms of offensive efficiency. Harden might end up giving up more points than he scores this series tbh.

LivinLakers
05-28-2016, 08:32 PM
This is a tough one. I like Billups in the playoffs, but Cassell could bring it too. I give Kobe the slight edge. Peja would space the floor well for Shaq. Especially over artest. Blame and Mason wins the battle of the PF easily and I think Shaq and Wilt is probably a tie. I think I give the slight edge to the

LivinLakers
05-28-2016, 08:33 PM
La Hanbra team tho because they are the better balanced team. I think Peja and Chauncey is the perfect pairing with Shaq.

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 09:07 PM
1st point. Best player on the floor is Wilt? Honestly, Im not sure Wilt would do so well vs Shaq, sure Wilt dominated in his era, and would still do well in the modern era, but he never faced a behemoth with the sheer strength and physical presence that Shaq had. Don't let Shaq's frame fool you, he could get down the floor too, and on the other end Wilt would struggle with his frame to hold down Shaq. No way Wilt is the best player on the floor, that's Shaq.
This is a fair point. While I might list Wilt ahead of Shaq in an all-time list, I do think Shaq would get the better of Wilt in an actual game with them at their primes.


2. Ron Artest actually didn't do so well as a "kobe stopper", he actually struggled to defend kobe and it made him waste so much energy defensively that he ended up hurting his team on offense...
This is another fair point. I don't think there was such a thing as a "Kobe stopper" in Kobe's career. Great offensive players don't really have "stoppers," just guys who did a better job defending them than others. Same can be said for MJ, Lebron, etc. I think Artest can do an admirable job of muscling Kobe in certain circumstances, and Kobe certainly wouldn't be able to post him up, but Kobe would still find a way to get his.


3. Billups and Gerald Wallace (12 minutes off the bench) will be guarding Harden. Theyre both great defenders and would at least make life difficult for Harden. They've both been named on All defensive teams so I trust their ability to limit Harden offensively without getting in foul trouble.
I don't think Billups on Harden is a great idea. He tends to abuse smaller defenders and outmuscle them. Billups would put up an admirable fight, but I don't think he's a great matchup on that end of the floor against Harden. Wallace could legitimately bother him with his length, though. That's probably your best bet. But if Peja ever has to defend him, Harden will have a field day. So Billups will probably have to do the majority of the work on Harden as far as your starters go.


4. Who will Harden be hiding on? Billups? Peja? Talk about field day for those guys... They're both already elite in terms of offensive efficiency. Harden might end up giving up more points than he scores this series tbh.
Both matchups have their drawbacks, but I'd probably go with Peja. Billups is fast enough and craft enough to drive right by Harden, whereas Harden could keep Peja in front of him with the ball in his hands. The tricky part with Peja will be not letting Peja move without the ball and get open looks and fighting through screens to prevent open perimeter shots, both things that Harden does not do especially well on that end of the floor. But I certainly don't buy that Harden would give up more points than he would score against Peja or Billups in a series. Those guys just are nowhere near as productive offensively, and that's a pretty bogus assumption.

mightybosstone
05-28-2016, 09:13 PM
For the record, I'm definitely leaning toward La Habra. That is one of the single best rosters I've seen built in an all-time re-draft, and it's perfectly balanced on both ends of the floor with the exception of some so-so defense at the forward spots. I just think Worcester matches up extremely well and would give them a much tougher time than the seeding suggests. But I'd probably ultimately take La Habra in six games. I do want to see a little more debate before voting, though.

Ebbs
05-29-2016, 07:45 AM
I went with La Habra, but this closer than I thought heading in. I think it could go seven.

KnicksorBust
05-29-2016, 10:16 AM
La Habra in a massacre. There are only a few teams that could handle Wilt and this is one of them. Then they have no place to hide Harden on defense. He would get abused so badly by either Billups or Peja it's silly. Maybe 5 games?

Shammyguy3
05-29-2016, 11:16 AM
La Habra wins for the reasoning above with Shaq being the biggest difference maker and the perfect surrounding cast

valade16
05-29-2016, 07:57 PM
La Habra in a massacre. There are only a few teams that could handle Wilt and this is one of them. Then they have no place to hide Harden on defense. He would get abused so badly by either Billups or Peja it's silly. Maybe 5 games?

Doesn't the opposite hold true as well? This is also one of the few teams that can handle Shaq. I don't think anyone can sell me on one of them winning that matchup so it comes down to the rest of the team.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-30-2016, 03:44 AM
Harden > Kobe on offense?

Wilt > Shaq?

Artest is a DPOY, Alvin is a DPOY.

Blake and Brand is fun for the Clippers and all eight of their fans.

Agreed on Harden. Unfortunately, Harden's defense is complete ****. Meanwhile, you have Kobe, the most overrated defender in NBA history. Still, for as overrated as Kobe's defense is, he's still miles better than Harden, which says almost nothing lol.

Definitely a case for Wilt > Shaq.

Brand is one of the most underrated defenders. Was looking at wingspan data earlier today, Brand's was massive. Blake would have a really tough time on him. Hell, he could give Wilt a run for his money.

Also I think Billups is one of the most underrated players too. Kinda funny LG has two underrated guys in Billups and Brand but maybe the most overrated guy in Kobe.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-30-2016, 03:49 AM
3. Billups and Gerald Wallace (12 minutes off the bench) will be guarding Harden. Theyre both great defenders and would at least make life difficult for Harden. They've both been named on All defensive teams so I trust their ability to limit Harden offensively without getting in foul trouble.

I like this. Although I'm not sure how well Crash would do on Harden.



4. Who will Harden be hiding on? Billups? Peja? Talk about field day for those guys... They're both already elite in terms of offensive efficiency. Harden might end up giving up more points than he scores this series tbh.

This is the big issue for Worcester. There's no one to hide Harden on.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-30-2016, 03:56 AM
I went with La Habra, but this closer than I thought heading in. I think it could go seven.

Agreed. I do like the fact La Habra has Crash on the bench to make up for it's so-so defense on the wings. And I really love the Brand/Billups defense.

Question is, do I go on my Kobe's overrated defensively rant in this matchup or the next? If we win, we'd face LG, so maybe worth waiting. And I'll have plenty, so it'll be fun.

eDush
05-30-2016, 07:32 AM
Harden > Kobe on offense?

Wilt > Shaq?

Artest is a DPOY, Alvin is a DPOY.

Blake and Brand is fun for the Clippers and all eight of their fans.
Good match up but there is no way Harden is better than Kobe on offense using the 3 year rule and if were to guard each other, Kobe might shut Harden down on D...can Harden do the same to Kobe? I know Wilt was unstoppable but he never faced anyone like Shaq in his era who could keep him from making dunks at will. I love Alvin over Billups, Elton and Peja has a slight edge over Artest and flop boy given their era as Peja would force Artest out of the paint to cover him in the perimeter as he spread the floor.

I actually rank both of these teams very high on my list but the La Habra Showtimes takes this one 4-2 in a seven game series with a prime Shaq daddy winning the MVP with keeping Wilt at bay which will not be easy.

Good job Ebbs on running the match up phase and if I wasn't so invested in my Dubs playoffs push, I would spend more time to help determine who is better with more research on the match up which is no small task. Onward...

KnicksorBust
05-30-2016, 09:40 AM
Doesn't the opposite hold true as well? This is also one of the few teams that can handle Shaq. I don't think anyone can sell me on one of them winning that matchup so it comes down to the rest of the team.

The other team is built around needing Wilt to dominate and being able to hide Harden defensively. This match-up provides them 0 opportunity to do either.

xnick5757
05-30-2016, 03:36 PM
The other team is built around needing Wilt to dominate and being able to hide Harden defensively. This match-up provides them 0 opportunity to do either.

Harden: 27+ PPG
Blake: 21+ PPG
Artest: 18+ PPG
Robertson: 17+ PPG


i think you're selling the rest of my offense short saying that "wilt needs to dominate" (not that it matters at this point)

Also if this team (Blake/Wilt combo) can't handle Shaq I don't want to hear anyone else say that their team could, lol


Props are due to L+G for building the best team in the game :clap:
turns out the secret to winning an all-time is only having 2000s players

KnicksorBust
05-30-2016, 04:40 PM
The other team is built around needing Wilt to dominate and being able to hide Harden defensively. This match-up provides them 0 opportunity to do either.

Harden: 27+ PPG
Blake: 21+ PPG
Artest: 18+ PPG
Robertson: 17+ PPG


i think you're selling the rest of my offense short saying that "wilt needs to dominate" (not that it matters at this point)

Also if this team (Blake/Wilt combo) can't handle Shaq I don't want to hear anyone else say that their team could, lol


Props are due to L+G for building the best team in the game :clap:
turns out the secret to winning an all-time is only having 2000s players

Offensively artest and robertson are below average starters. Blake is average. That means for you to be able to compete in an all-time redraft you need Harden and Wilt to do the heavy lifting and dominate offensively. What do you disagree with there?

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2016, 07:04 PM
Harden: 27+ PPG
Blake: 21+ PPG
Artest: 18+ PPG
Robertson: 17+ PPG


i think you're selling the rest of my offense short saying that "wilt needs to dominate" (not that it matters at this point)

Also if this team (Blake/Wilt combo) can't handle Shaq I don't want to hear anyone else say that their team could, lol


Props are due to L+G for building the best team in the game :clap:
turns out the secret to winning an all-time is only having 2000s players

Appreciate it man :cheers:

I was pretty scared of facing Wilt to be quite honest...phew.