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View Full Version : How long will a Lebron team rule the East?



Vampirate
05-26-2016, 01:53 PM
As great as Lebron is he's no spring chicken anymore.

When do you think the Lebron team starts to fade and what team in the East will be ruling it once that happens?

ewing
05-26-2016, 02:18 PM
has long as he is good enough to stack his team and win.

Cramerica
05-26-2016, 03:37 PM
has long as he is good enough to stack his team and win.

This, to a degree. Much like Jordan's Bulls, Duncan's Spurs, and Shaq & Kobe's Lakers, etc. you need a strong, deep team with plenty of supporting cast. No one wins titles alone.

Lebron has made some great playoffs while carrying a lot of the wins on his own back when his teammates weren't providing much support. That was evident in the Finals last year and pretty much every year in Cleveland (before he went back) up to when he would meet the Celtics.

Give him good support and his style of play, while physical, is also so extremely versatile, thus long-lasting, and he will be a force on the court for a long time.

Cramerica
05-26-2016, 04:14 PM
I seem to remember like a year or two ago they said that Lebron's played in so many post-season games already that they've totaled up to an extra regular season of play. That was a year or two ago - so he's adding up miles quick.

Iron24th
05-26-2016, 04:42 PM
No doubt he rules the east, and looking at easter teams he might still rule it for a while.

But he definitely not rules the Finals, and part of it is because of how weak is the east.

Supreme LA
05-26-2016, 04:43 PM
As long as all the actual competitive teams and players stay out West.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2016, 04:48 PM
He's playing on 1 year contracts to max his money ( smart dude).

One way or another he will continue to align himself with the most talented team on the east, either in Cleveland or bailing to another team if need be.

Cramerica
05-26-2016, 04:48 PM
No doubt he rules the east, and looking at easter teams he might still rule it for a while.

But he definitely not rules the Finals, and part of it is because of how weak is the east.

He's definitely not ruling the Finals, but aside from a few other players on the Miami Heat, I don't think there's too many active or relevant guys in the league with multiple Finals wins and are still visiting the Finals each year on a routine basis.

My point is, he's closer than anyone else at the moment at ruling the Finals because he's the only relevant player there every year, winning or not winning and there's no team from the West routinely beating him in the Finals.

5ass
05-26-2016, 06:59 PM
I bet they'll miss the finals at least once in the next 3 years.

5ass
05-26-2016, 07:00 PM
He's playing on 1 year contracts to max his money ( smart dude).

One way or another he will continue to align himself with the most talented team on the east, either in Cleveland or bailing to another team if need be.

No chance he leaves Cleveland.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 07:27 PM
Until there's another legitimately good eastern team. He may outlast that reality though, in the sense that Cleveland will be so far better and more stacked than east teams can keep up with until he naturally declines.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2016, 07:43 PM
Most Anti Lebron people will say forever because the East is weak but the East is becoming really really good.. Raptors/pacers/Wizards/Celtics/Heat/Hawks are all coming on extremely strong... These teams could be really dangerous next season... I still think a healthy heat team would have knocked the cavs out this year because they matchup so well with them. So maybe as soon as next year... Cavs need to get rid of love badly though.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2016, 07:45 PM
As long as all the actual competitive teams and players stay out West.

and it didnt take long... This just isnt factual anymore. The East was weak when lebron went to the heat but this year the east is back and early lebron years when he was still going to the finals the Eastern conference was good.

Again West is top heavy... Warriors/Thunder/Spurs are the 3 best teams in basketball but after that Id have the cavs/Raptors/Heat/Hawks over everybody out west including the clippers... Then its clippers/Celtic/Wizards and so on down the list.

Vinylman
05-26-2016, 07:56 PM
Most Anti Lebron people will say forever because the East is weak but the East is becoming really really good.. Raptors/pacers/Wizards/Celtics/Heat/Hawks are all coming on extremely strong... These teams could be really dangerous next season... I still think a healthy heat team would have knocked the cavs out this year because they matchup so well with them. So maybe as soon as next year... Cavs need to get rid of love badly though.

LMFAO... other than Boston none of those teams will be a threat in the next 4 years...

Toronto will lose DDR to my Lakers unfortunately
Hawks? Regular season team that will be revamped the next two summers
Celtics... best chance to compete but will have to hit a home run when they flip their assets
Heat?... old and getting older.... the young guys look good because they aren't having to carry the weight... great role players ... not starters
Pacers? Won't be able to attract the right FA's and will be stuck in the middle drafting just outside the lottery
Wizards? meh... didn't even make the playoffs this year...

If everyone is healthy the top 5 teams in the west are better than anyone in the east other than Cleveland

GSW
OKC
Sperms
Clippers
Memphis

More-Than-Most
05-26-2016, 08:01 PM
LMFAO... other than Boston none of those teams will be a threat in the next 4 years...

Toronto will lose DDR to my Lakers unfortunately
Hawks? Regular season team that will be revamped the next two summers
Celtics... best chance to compete but will have to hit a home run when they flip their assets
Heat?... old and getting older.... the young guys look good because they aren't having to carry the weight... great role players ... not starters
Pacers? Won't be able to attract the right FA's and will be stuck in the middle drafting just outside the lottery
Wizards? meh... didn't even make the playoffs this year...

If everyone is healthy the top 5 teams in the west are better than anyone in the east other than Cleveland

GSW
OKC
Sperms
Clippers
Memphis

Not even worth... Your post if full or assumptions and you clearly just hate on the East. The pacers have one of the best basketball players in the world and young talent where the celtics have a ton of picks/young talent and the heat have a good foundation and will spend and have an attractive location for free agents.. The wizards yet again have really nice young pieces that will get better... The pacers/Celtics will wipe the floor with the grizz/clipps next season with the heat being question marks.. The hawks are already better than the clippers/grizz but they have 1 really bad matchup in the cavs.

5ass
05-26-2016, 08:05 PM
Most Anti Lebron people will say forever because the East is weak but the East is becoming really really good.. Raptors/pacers/Wizards/Celtics/Heat/Hawks are all coming on extremely strong... These teams could be really dangerous next season... I still think a healthy heat team would have knocked the cavs out this year because they matchup so well with them. So maybe as soon as next year... Cavs need to get rid of love badly though.

Not to mention the top teams in the west are likely going to regress next year so the gap between conferences will be even smaller. IMO both the Spurs and Warriors are going to take a step back. warriors because they'll lose some of their depth in FA and spurs because they're aging.

Meanwhile in the east the only team I think will take a step back is the Hawks, but in general teams in the east have way more room for improvement than those in the west IMO.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2016, 08:08 PM
Not to mention the top teams in the west are likely going to regress next year so the gap between conferences will be even smaller. IMO both the Spurs and Warriors are going to take a step back. warriors because they'll lose some of their depth in FA and spurs because they're aging.

Meanwhile in the east the only team I think will take a step back is the Hawks, but in general teams in the east have way more room for improvement than those in the west IMO.

Somebody who gets it :clap:

jerellh528
05-26-2016, 08:11 PM
Eastern teams can be described as "scrappy". But they don't have the heavy hitters like the west does. I mean, just look at the all nba selections. Only 4 players between all 3 teams were from the east, and 3 of them were third teamers. And one of those spots prolly shoulda went to harden lol

Vinylman
05-26-2016, 08:12 PM
Not even worth... Your post if full or assumptions and you clearly just hate on the East. The pacers have one of the best basketball players in the world and young talent where the celtics have a ton of picks/young talent and the heat have a good foundation and will spend and have an attractive location for free agents.. The wizards yet again have really nice young pieces that will get better... The pacers/Celtics will wipe the floor with the grizz/clipps next season with the heat being question marks.. The hawks are already better than the clippers/grizz but they have 1 really bad matchup in the cavs.

Pacers/Celtics wipe the floor with full strength grizz/clippers.... you are delusional

there are just as many good young teams in the west that you are ignoring that will have higher upsides than most in the east ... Minny/Portland just to name 2

There isn't one assumption i listed that isn't right...

which one is wrong? You think DDR is staying in Toronto? I could only hope he will but there is zero doubt he is going to be a Laker

You think the Heat will get better in the next two years? Wade is going to fall off a cliff at some point and bosh is done.

Seriously which assumption?

Chronz
05-26-2016, 08:54 PM
Stars stay West for a reason, Melo went from contending out West to missing the playoffs in the East.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2016, 09:02 PM
No chance he leaves Cleveland.

If he gets them the ring he promised there's a huge chance he's out...

numba1CHANGsta
05-26-2016, 10:07 PM
The older LeBron gets, the more superstars he needs to win, so he'll probably add another superstar to his team since he's overrated and can't do it with just one other superstar.

5ass
05-26-2016, 10:16 PM
Eastern teams can be described as "scrappy". But they don't have the heavy hitters like the west does. I mean, just look at the all nba selections. Only 4 players between all 3 teams were from the east, and 3 of them were third teamers. And one of those spots prolly shoulda went to harden lol

I agree there's more star players in the west, but don't you think "scrappiness" has a lot to do with defensive talent? All NBA selections aren't a good indication where the talent is located btw. For one, you'd have to remove DJ, Cousins and Drummond from the list because they're not top 15 players. Maybe if you look at a top 20-25 list you could judge where more stars are located but good luck making a top 25 list everyone agrees with.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 10:18 PM
Eastern teams can be described as "scrappy". But they don't have the heavy hitters like the west does. I mean, just look at the all nba selections. Only 4 players between all 3 teams were from the east, and 3 of them were third teamers. And one of those spots prolly shoulda went to harden lol

Exactly.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 10:21 PM
Stars stay West for a reason, Melo went from contending out West to missing the playoffs in the East.

Ooh, you're more of a troll than I realized lol.

5ass
05-26-2016, 10:22 PM
He's playing on 1 year contracts to max his money ( smart dude).

One way or another he will continue to align himself with the most talented team on the east, either in Cleveland or bailing to another team if need be.


If he gets them the ring he promised there's a huge chance he's out...

So if he wins he's leaving and if he doesn't win he's leaving... sounds like you just want another reason to hate n the guy LOL

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 10:25 PM
I agree there's more star players in the west, but don't you think "scrappiness" has a lot to do with defensive talent? All NBA selections aren't a good indication where the talent is located btw. For one, you'd have to remove DJ, Cousins and Drummond from the list because they're not top 15 players. Maybe if you look at a top 20-25 list you could judge where more stars are located but good luck making a top 25 list everyone agrees with.

The problem there is that the first two names you would add are probably Anthony Davis and James Harden.

Chronz
05-26-2016, 10:31 PM
The older LeBron gets, the more superstars he needs to win, so he'll probably add another superstar to his team since he's overrated and can't do it with just one other superstar.

Unless you win with zero other superstars, they all overrated. Only Duncan, Hakeem and Dirk are the true goats. Cuz they won without superstar sidekicks.

Chronz
05-26-2016, 10:33 PM
Ooh, you're more of a troll than I realized lol.
How dare you

bklynny67
05-26-2016, 10:41 PM
Yep, as long as he continues to play with other top ranked players. Otherwise, he wouldn't make the finals anymore. He's already showing decline, even if only a little. He can't carry a team like he did his first time around in Cleveland with no other top players.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 10:47 PM
How dare you

:p

bklynny67
05-26-2016, 10:47 PM
Most Anti Lebron people will say forever because the East is weak but the East is becoming really really good.. Raptors/pacers/Wizards/Celtics/Heat/Hawks are all coming on extremely strong... These teams could be really dangerous next season... I still think a healthy heat team would have knocked the cavs out this year because they matchup so well with them. So maybe as soon as next year... Cavs need to get rid of love badly though.
And yet out of all those teams you mention, only 1 would have barely been a top 4 team in the West. LeBron will remain in the East cuz no one will beat his stacked team. There's no GS, SAS, and OKC to compete with. Really no one is close to their level in the East except Cleveland so he'll stay where it's easiest to win, a stacked team in a weak conference. He wouldn't have nearly as many finals appearances if his teams had to go through the West and it will remain that way.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2016, 11:01 PM
And yet out of all those teams you mention, only 1 would have barely been a top 4 team in the West. LeBron will remain in the East cuz no one will beat his stacked team. There's no GS, SAS, and OKC to compete with. Really no one is close to their level in the East except Cleveland so he'll stay where it's easiest to win, a stacked team in a weak conference. He wouldn't have nearly as many finals appearances if his teams had to go through the West and it will remain that way.

Again this logic is flawed... He might even have an easier time going to the finals if he was out west because of the fire power hed have around him... But see this doesnt fit the agenda right? Put him in place of any of the wests teams best players and they are far and away the best team in basketball.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-26-2016, 11:41 PM
I'd say 2-3 more years for certain he goes to finals or loses in a competitive ECF. At that point, I expect a shift in talent or he slows down.

5ass
05-26-2016, 11:45 PM
Stars stay West for a reason, Melo went from contending out West to missing the playoffs in the East.

So you're saying teams in the west have the better FOs? I would agree but a lot of team in the east fired their GMs in the past like 5 years. I'd guess more teams in the east had a GM change than teams in the west. Its not fair to judge them yet. The east is trending upward though, and honestly all it'll take is one superstar moving to the east (and to the right team) to balance things out IMO.

Jayb587
05-26-2016, 11:46 PM
He will rule for awhile because the east is trash. Can't believe some of u even argue against this. The Hawks? Celtics? Lmao. These teams have no chance against lebron.

Jayb587
05-26-2016, 11:50 PM
So you're saying teams in the west have the better FOs? I would agree but a lot of team in the east fired their GMs in the past like 5 years. I'd guess more teams in the east had a GM change than teams in the west. Its not fair to judge them yet. The east is trending upward though, and honestly all it'll take is one superstar moving to the east (and to the right team) to balance things out IMO.

There was a time when KD going to the wiz could have challenged lebron. But nope. No star power in the east to beat bron. Bunch of low level stars playing each other tough means nothing to me.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2016, 11:53 PM
So you're saying teams in the west have the better FOs? I would agree but a lot of team in the east fired their GMs in the past like 5 years. I'd guess more teams in the east had a GM change than teams in the west. Its not fair to judge them yet. The east is trending upward though, and honestly all it'll take is one superstar moving to the east (and to the right team) to balance things out IMO.

It would take one of the top 4 west teams moving to the east to help lol. Let's not forget the Clippers faced major injury issues this year. 3 All-NBA players, another good starter and the 6MoY in 2 of last 3 seasons and they haven't even made the WCF. That's life in the west.

Aust
05-27-2016, 12:06 AM
Magic and Bucks are the future. I want to believe.

numba1CHANGsta
05-27-2016, 12:11 AM
LeBron is lucky he plays in this generation of basketball, he doesn't have the balls to leave the East and play in the West where the big boys play.

lol, please
05-27-2016, 12:39 AM
As great as Lebron is he's no spring chicken anymore.

When do you think the Lebron team starts to fade and what team in the East will be ruling it once that happens?
That questions been answered already. The East is the Raptors conference now.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

nastynice
05-27-2016, 01:00 AM
Probably for a couple more years. East has progressed, but still when the playoffs started everyone had the cavs locked in. I'm sure most people are surprised that the raps even won two games.

East is coming up at least, FINALLY, but now those young squads need to add some playoff experience in order to try and become a legit contender. When the playoffs started there was only one legit contender in the east, will prob stay that way another two years.

Chrisclover
05-27-2016, 01:47 AM
This, to a degree. Much like Jordan's Bulls, Duncan's Spurs, and Shaq & Kobe's Lakers, etc. you need a strong, deep team with plenty of supporting cast. No one wins titles alone.

Lebron has made some great playoffs while carrying a lot of the wins on his own back when his teammates weren't providing much support. That was evident in the Finals last year and pretty much every year in Cleveland (before he went back) up to when he would meet the Celtics.

Give him good support and his style of play, while physical, is also so extremely versatile, thus long-lasting, and he will be a force on the court for a long time.
I would say 3-4 years. After that he would not be as dominant as he is right now.

Sent from my SM-N9100 using Tapatalk

Jayb587
05-27-2016, 06:33 AM
Again this logic is flawed... He might even have an easier time going to the finals if he was out west because of the fire power hed have around him... But see this doesnt fit the agenda right? Put him in place of any of the wests teams best players and they are far and away the best team in basketball.

Don't agree. Lebron replacing kawhi doesn't make me think spurs beat the thunder. You can't replace curry with Lebron. Put Miami lebron and company in the West and they are not going to 6 straight finals. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend . Competition is too stiff.

Bostonjorge
05-27-2016, 09:18 AM
Aslong as the east is the second tier conference with second rate teams then he has at least 3-4 more years.

MarkieMark48
05-27-2016, 12:24 PM
If Lebron went to a western conference team or just decided to retire I wonder if the east would still "suck" in the eyes of most or if it would turn into how competitive and evenly balanced all the teams are?

Cramerica
05-27-2016, 12:26 PM
LeBron is lucky he plays in this generation of basketball, he doesn't have the balls to leave the East and play in the West where the big boys play.

That just sounds smart. Remember, Manning partly picked where he would play after Indy based on what teams he would have to face to get to the conference championship.

Also, Lebron has won 2 of 5 Finals against the West. Not a winning record, but he's obviously shown he can win the Finals. It's not like the West is so good that he's gone 0-5 against them.

Vinylman
05-27-2016, 12:34 PM
That just sounds smart. Remember, Manning partly picked where he would play after Indy based on what teams he would have to face to get to the conference championship.

Also, Lebron has won 2 of 5 Finals against the West. Not a winning record, but he's obviously shown he can win the Finals. It's not like the West is so good that he's gone 0-5 against them.

wrong 2 of 6

Vinylman
05-27-2016, 12:37 PM
If Lebron went to a western conference team or just decided to retire I wonder if the east would still "suck" in the eyes of most or if it would turn into how competitive and evenly balanced all the teams are?

If Lebron retired and players didn't flock to the east it would be no different than the early 2000's when the WCF was basically the NBA finals

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 12:39 PM
If Lebron retired and players didn't flock to the east it would be no different than the early 2000's when the WCF was basically the NBA finals

Exaclty, when Jason Kidd led a 49-win Nets team to the Finals. :puke:

FlashBolt
05-27-2016, 12:41 PM
wrong 2 of 6

Has is past tense..

Vinylman
05-27-2016, 12:45 PM
Has is past tense..

huh?

he lost to

SA X2
Dallas
GSW

beat

OKC
SA

that's 2 out of 6 in my book

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 12:45 PM
Too many people get defensive over LeBron, the reality just is that the east has been ****** for a long time. LeBron has mostly faced sub-40 win teams in the first round. Two years ago, the 48-win Suns missed the playoffs. There have been multiple years in recent history where there was a 50-win team as the 8th seed in the west. The west has had the Lakers and Spurs, who have played 13 NBA Finals and won 10 of them.

If players like Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki were in the east instead of the west they would have racked up a ton of Finals appearances too. Nash went to 3 WCF's and lost to the Spurs, Lakers and Dirk's Mavs. When Pringles was there the Suns lost to the Spurs in 3 of 4 postseasons, including in the 1st round as a 55-win 6th seed. That was one of those years, Melo's Nuggets were a 50-win 8th seed lmao.

Just no contest, the Heat/Cavs have been a giant in a valley of midgets.

FlashBolt
05-27-2016, 12:48 PM
huh?

he lost to

SA X2
Dallas
GSW

beat

OKC
SA

that's 2 out of 6 in my book

Oh, I thought you meant he went to 8 NBA Finals. I think 2-4 is a more representative of what actually happened. Like Jordan is 6-0, not 6-6.

FlashBolt
05-27-2016, 12:51 PM
Too many people get defensive over LeBron, the reality just is that the east has been ****** for a long time. LeBron has mostly faced sub-40 win teams in the first round. Two years ago, the 48-win Suns missed the playoffs. There have been multiple years in recent history where there was a 50-win team as the 8th seed in the west. The west has had the Lakers and Spurs, who have played 13 NBA Finals and won 10 of them.

If players like Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki were in the east instead of the west they would have racked up a ton of Finals appearances too. Nash went to 3 WCF's and lost to the Spurs, Lakers and Dirk's Mavs. When Pringles was there the Suns lost to the Spurs in 3 of 4 postseasons, including in the 1st round as a 55-win 6th seed. That was one of those years, Melo's Nuggets were a 50-win 8th seed lmao.

Just no contest, the Heat/Cavs have been a giant in a valley of midgets.

You're using ifs.. If Dirk went to the East, he wouldn't have the rosters he has had during Dallas. If Nash went to the East, he wouldn't have Amare and would probably have gotten Brook Lopez. East has caught up fairly quick compared to last season. And if you want to complain about LeBron's 2-4 record, then it's only fair that you acknowledge he would have a higher Finals win rate playing on a WC roster. That's a simple fact. Just start switching players and you'll find that LeBron on most WC teams would be an elite team capable of winning it all.

Chronz
05-27-2016, 01:05 PM
Too many people get defensive over LeBron, the reality just is that the east has been ****** for a long time. LeBron has mostly faced sub-40 win teams in the first round. Two years ago, the 48-win Suns missed the playoffs. There have been multiple years in recent history where there was a 50-win team as the 8th seed in the west. The west has had the Lakers and Spurs, who have played 13 NBA Finals and won 10 of them.

If players like Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki were in the east instead of the west they would have racked up a ton of Finals appearances too. Nash went to 3 WCF's and lost to the Spurs, Lakers and Dirk's Mavs. When Pringles was there the Suns lost to the Spurs in 3 of 4 postseasons, including in the 1st round as a 55-win 6th seed. That was one of those years, Melo's Nuggets were a 50-win 8th seed lmao.

Just no contest, the Heat/Cavs have been a giant in a valley of midgets.
Do you mean players like Dirk and Nash or do you mean the teams they were on, just transported East? Melo went East and his career trajectory has spiraled out of relevance. Put Bron in the West and he could arguably have it easier with the better support out there. Like place him on the Spurs and dude probably never averages more than 38MPG at his peak and is preserved throughout his career. If it were so easy, why do the stars refuse to go out East?

Hawkeye15
05-27-2016, 01:17 PM
Do you mean players like Dirk and Nash or do you mean the teams they were on, just transported East? Melo went East and his career trajectory has spiraled out of relevance. Put Bron in the West and he could arguably have it easier with the better support out there. Like place him on the Spurs and dude probably never averages more than 38MPG at his peak and is preserved throughout his career. If it were so easy, why do the stars refuse to go out East?

exactly

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 01:22 PM
You're using ifs.. If Dirk went to the East, he wouldn't have the rosters he has had during Dallas. If Nash went to the East, he wouldn't have Amare and would probably have gotten Brook Lopez. East has caught up fairly quick compared to last season. And if you want to complain about LeBron's 2-4 record, then it's only fair that you acknowledge he would have a higher Finals win rate playing on a WC roster. That's a simple fact. Just start switching players and you'll find that LeBron on most WC teams would be an elite team capable of winning it all.

What rosters are that? When was Dirk ever on some super stacked team? Nash made the WCF the year Amare missed the entire season with Boris Diaw in his place, so once again nice try. What if Nash and Dirk were playing four years with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh? Think they'd have a problem? Lol, the LeBron help excuse is so pathetically old. He's been on one of the most stacked teams in the league, if not the most, in each of the past 6 seasons. Need new material to make excuses.

People are quick to say, oh you can't blame him for 2007 because that roster was weak. OK, but how do you ignore the simple fact that they played the 41-win Nets that year in the second round? Whether it's Iverson's 76ers, both of Kidd's back-to-back Nets teams or those 2007 Cavs, these are all teams that had no business being in the NBA Finals and only were due to a pathetically weak conference.

In 2008 the Cavs won 45 games and were the 4th seed. That year the Nuggets were the 8th seed with 50-wins and the Warriors were the 9th seed with 48-wins. There are years where LeBron's teams wouldn't have even been playoff teams in the west, let alone be good enough to make it to the Finals. LeBron also has a crappy playoff series record vs 50-win teams.

You can't sit there and praise him for beating all of these teams in the east and ignore the simple fact that most of them have been weak. It's the same for any of the few strong east teams over the past 17-years. It's something that predates LeBron.

Vinylman
05-27-2016, 01:29 PM
Oh, I thought you meant he went to 8 NBA Finals. I think 2-4 is a more representative of what actually happened. Like Jordan is 6-0, not 6-6.

yeah... I agree with how you have it above but that isn't how the guy I responded to had it...

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 01:30 PM
Do you mean players like Dirk and Nash or do you mean the teams they were on, just transported East? Melo went East and his career trajectory has spiraled out of relevance. Put Bron in the West and he could arguably have it easier with the better support out there. Like place him on the Spurs and dude probably never averages more than 38MPG at his peak and is preserved throughout his career. If it were so easy, why do the stars refuse to go out East?

Dirk was never on super stacked teams and in 2011 he brought a far inferior team to the Finals and beat LeBron's stacked Heat. Nash made the WCF without Amare when he missed the entire season and Boris Diaw was in his place. Funny to bring up teams and ignore that LeBron has been on stacked teams for the past 6 years. Dirk and Nash wouldn't have struggled to make the Finals with those Heat teams, right?

Melo went east and carried a blah team to 54-wins. He plays for the Knicks, one of the worst run organizations of the past 16-years (aka Dolan era). Stars stay west because they like playing for good organizations and with the best players, who are mostly in the west.

Vinylman
05-27-2016, 01:33 PM
Do you mean players like Dirk and Nash or do you mean the teams they were on, just transported East? Melo went East and his career trajectory has spiraled out of relevance. Put Bron in the West and he could arguably have it easier with the better support out there. Like place him on the Spurs and dude probably never averages more than 38MPG at his peak and is preserved throughout his career. If it were so easy, why do the stars refuse to go out East?


what is this a circle jerk? you act like putting him on that SA roster would have zero impact on who else would be on that team... lets just ignore the cap and play NBA2K what if's

the argument against Lebron isn't that he is in the east ... its that he doesn't face competition until the finals.... which makes his path to a championship MUCH easier.

If you move Cleveland to the West and lets say OKC to the east.... is it unreasonable to think that Lebron would have a much tougher time getting through the WC than the EC?

This isn't rocket science

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 01:38 PM
what is this a circle jerk? you act like putting him on that SA roster would have zero impact on who else would be on that team... lets just ignore the cap and play NBA2K what if's

the argument against Lebron isn't that he is in the east ... its that he doesn't face competition until the finals.... which makes his path to a championship MUCH easier.

If you move Cleveland to the West and lets say OKC to the east.... is it unreasonable to think that Lebron would have a much tougher time getting through the WC than the EC?

This isn't rocket science

Seriously, and I don't see him finding better help than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. That argument is archaic from 2009-10 and prior. He's played with two All-NBA/All-Star players and good role players every year since.

Chronz
05-27-2016, 02:16 PM
what is this a circle jerk? you act like putting him on that SA roster would have zero impact on who else would be on that team... lets just ignore the cap and play NBA2K what if's
You turn off the cap when you play 2K? You ****ing monster. Seriously tho, where did I "Act" that way. The logic is actually that since Bron has been the best player in the league for so long, no matter who slot him to replace on that roster, you have to do alot to convince me its not worth the payoff. My opinion still stands, just because it differs from yours doesn't make it any less relevant to the debate.


the argument against Lebron isn't that he is in the east ... its that he doesn't face competition until the finals.... which makes his path to a championship MUCH easier.

Well yeah, and if he were in the West he could actually have it even easier depending on the team/year/role you want to focus on. Really need more to go on than vague opinions.


If you move Cleveland to the West and lets say OKC to the east.... is it unreasonable to think that Lebron would have a much tougher time getting through the WC than the EC?

Which is why I asked if you were talking about individual or teams. I would agree with that opinion tho. I just dont see the point in blaming Bron when nobody else has the pull to do what he does. Bron could easily have joined the Spurs the first chance he got and been on the most successful franchise this decade, and easily replicated his success or had even more, really depends on what you define as success. Like maybe he has only 4 Finals births but wins all 4 of them, its what if either way. I just dont agree with your hypothetical.

Chronz
05-27-2016, 02:26 PM
Seriously, and I don't see him finding better help than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. That argument is archaic from 2009-10 and prior. He's played with two All-NBA/All-Star players and good role players every year since.

You named 2 players, 2 players who played at .500 level when Bron wasn't on the floor, on a team where (depending on the year) Bron didn't even know until game time whether Wade would suit up or not. He also had to battle through significant stretches with Bosh and/or Wade injured and debilitated.

Simply joining the Spurs would have afforded him more rest on a contender that could win with him preserved in bubble wrap. I will never understand why people think a teams talent base boils down to a select few players. I get that those are the brand names and of the utmost importance, but in a comparison vs teams like the Spurs, you would think you would go deeper. I mean, those 2 guys wet the bed against them in the rematch and havent exactly been lighting the world on fire since his departure, in fact, in the 2 years combined, their collective statistical worth has actually declined since then. At what point do the names Bosh+Wade lose some of that luster? According to Bird, it took a historical effort from Bron for them to win, comparitively speaking, I've seen Bird cruise to titles despite playing in the tougher conference.

Workloads matter more than names.

FlashBolt
05-27-2016, 02:37 PM
If you think LeBron on the SAS wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the OKC wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the Warriors wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the Mavs wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the Clippers wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the Grizzlies wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.
If you think LeBron on the Heat wouldn't be a lethal force that would be able to win the championship every season, you are an idiot.

The common denominator is LeBron. He on any team would give you the best opportunity of making the NBA Finals. That's always been true.

Chronz
05-27-2016, 02:52 PM
They want to know which player you would be taking out of the equation to make room for Bron. That would be interesting what if but nobody likes those

FlashBolt
05-27-2016, 02:57 PM
They want to know which player you would be taking out of the equation to make room for Bron. That would be interesting what if but nobody likes those

You can't use what-if's for the East and not the West, though. These guys are claiming that LeBron is on the stacked teams but it only gets stacked because he's on the team. If LeBron wasn't on the East, there would be no stacked team.. again, common denominator is LeBron. We'd probably see the Raptors in the Finals. Again, if LeBron makes the Finals, he would surely beat the Raptors -- improving his Finals record. LeBron is doing what he's supposed to do - make the Finals. But there's very few players throughout the past decade that would have been able to carry any team to the NBA Finals six straight times. That's difficult to do and IDC who it is.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2016, 03:07 PM
I wonder had the Super Friends not formed what happens once Boston stops dominating? Their window closed relatively fast after that last Finals loss to the Lakers.

Would've been interesting to see how far the Big 3 could've went facing off against each other for years with Boston out of the way.

I'm thinking Lebron gets a ring, Wade maybe one more Finals appearance ( no ring tho), and regular 2nd or 3rd round exits for Bosh but no Finals.

mngopher35
05-27-2016, 03:34 PM
I wonder had the Super Friends not formed what happens once Boston stops dominating? Their window closed relatively fast after that last Finals loss to the Lakers.

Would've been interesting to see how far the Big 3 could've went facing off against each other for years with Boston out of the way.

I'm thinking Lebron gets a ring, Wade maybe one more Finals appearance ( no ring tho), and regular 2nd or 3rd round exits for Bosh but no Finals.

Bosh was gonna go to Miami with Wade even if Lebron stayed I believe. So Miami still likely ends up as the team to beat, just not quite as good. The West likely becomes clear favorites each year for the title instead of it being more of a toss up. I think Lebron could have made the finals again but without serious upgrades there is no way Cle competes with Westy/Harden/Durant/Ibaka or the Spurs in 13/14.

FOXHOUND
05-27-2016, 04:36 PM
You named 2 players, 2 players who played at .500 level when Bron wasn't on the floor, on a team where (depending on the year) Bron didn't even know until game time whether Wade would suit up or not. He also had to battle through significant stretches with Bosh and/or Wade injured and debilitated.

Simply joining the Spurs would have afforded him more rest on a contender that could win with him preserved in bubble wrap. I will never understand why people think a teams talent base boils down to a select few players. I get that those are the brand names and of the utmost importance, but in a comparison vs teams like the Spurs, you would think you would go deeper. I mean, those 2 guys wet the bed against them in the rematch and havent exactly been lighting the world on fire since his departure, in fact, in the 2 years combined, their collective statistical worth has actually declined since then. At what point do the names Bosh+Wade lose some of that luster? According to Bird, it took a historical effort from Bron for them to win, comparitively speaking, I've seen Bird cruise to titles despite playing in the tougher conference.

Workloads matter more than names.

I'm not saying it was ever easy for them to win the NBA Finals, just that he's had multiple years where getting there was pathetically easy. Like I said, this isn't strictly about LeBron and something that predates him as the AI 76ers and Kidd's back-to-back Finals Nets are no different. However, he's been on stacked teams in a weak conference for 6 years now, which has inflated his Finals appearance number.

LeBron is an all time great and his two Finals winning runs were truly great. He played those years like I always expected of him, his D, shooting and post play were all at their best at those days. But there are other all time greats who haven't been as fortunate to play in such a weak conference or on a stacked team in it for this long either.

Dirk never played on a team nearly as stacked as those Heat and played in the brutal west yet he led his team to two Finals and won one. Could have won two, if not for Wade ref magic in 06, but you know. :D

All I'm saying is if Dirk played his entire career in the east then he also would have piled on a ton of Finals appearances. He made the Finals with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his best help in 2006 as the #4 seed. On the way they upset the Spurs in game 7 at their house and beat the stacked Suns and MVP Steve Nash in the WCF. We all remember the magic of the 2011 run and all the more talented teams they beat on the way. You don't think he could have handled most of these east teams? Come now, that's disrespectful to Dirk.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2016, 04:42 PM
Bosh was gonna go to Miami with Wade even if Lebron stayed I believe. So Miami still likely ends up as the team to beat, just not quite as good. The West likely becomes clear favorites each year for the title instead of it being more of a toss up. I think Lebron could have made the finals again but without serious upgrades there is no way Cle competes with Westy/Harden/Durant/Ibaka or the Spurs in 13/14.

I don't know, prime Wade and Bosh with a bigger role?

I think they get fresh fish OKC. If for no other reason because Russell was so careless and uncontrolled, D Wade would've been the perfect opposite.

Sportsguy9695
05-27-2016, 04:48 PM
If he gets them the ring he promised there's a huge chance he's out...

if he gets the ring this year. im sure there will be a much worse chance of him leaving. if he doesnt win a ring this year there will be a much better chance he leaves cleveland.

Chronz
05-27-2016, 04:51 PM
Bosh was gonna go to Miami with Wade even if Lebron stayed I believe. So Miami still likely ends up as the team to beat, just not quite as good. The West likely becomes clear favorites each year for the title instead of it being more of a toss up. I think Lebron could have made the finals again but without serious upgrades there is no way Cle competes with Westy/Harden/Durant/Ibaka or the Spurs in 13/14.

One of my favorite what ifs. That first year? Maybe but it depends on where Bron goes and how the team can build. Highly unlikely Bron returns to Cleveland so if he goes to Chicago, they CRUSH Miami. He chooses NY then its likely Chicago makes the Finals. And then the years thereafter, either Wade and Bosh get injured (unless you want to argue not having Bron lessens their workload) and I dont see where they make the Finals.


I don't know, prime Wade and Bosh with a bigger role?

I think they get fresh fish OKC. If for no other reason because Russell was so careless and uncontrolled, D Wade would've been the perfect opposite.
Do they stay 100% healthy, cuz they couldn't do that with Bron carrying them. They dont make the Finals without Bron. Curious tho, what do you make of them actually posting worse numbers in the 2 years without Bron than they did while winning chips. I mean, unless we ignore efficiency, Im not seeing the advantage of this bigger role when it sacrifices what actually won them chips.....

Chronz
05-27-2016, 05:07 PM
I'm not saying it was ever easy for them to win the NBA Finals, just that he's had multiple years where getting there was pathetically easy. Like I said, this isn't strictly about LeBron and something that predates him as the AI 76ers and Kidd's back-to-back Finals Nets are no different. However, he's been on stacked teams in a weak conference for 6 years now, which has inflated his Finals appearance number.
I dont like the word inflation, it implies some kind of objective approach to a barometer of some kind. Like when people say Wilt's rebounding numbers are inflated, what they actually mean is that his per game averages are inflated(via possessions). We can actually estimate his numbers in eras with less possessions and directly translate the impact those numbers have vs its respective era with percentages. Thats an actual barometer that begins with an objective approach you can then deviate from. What you're suggesting isn't inflation to me, you may wish to discredit it in some way, but him doing whats expected of him is actually a sign of his greatness. Like, this is a sport where Dirk, in an MVP season loses in the first round to a subpar team, so if its inflation, then you should have a translation. How many Finals do other players make in similar situations and why havent they produced as dominantly and consistently as Bron has?


LeBron is an all time great and his two Finals winning runs were truly great. He played those years like I always expected of him, his D, shooting and post play were all at their best at those days. But there are other all time greats who haven't been as fortunate to play in such a weak conference or on a stacked team in it for this long either.

Thats how it is for every great, nobody ever has the same road to greatness. Thats why its idiotic when people list rings as some sort of tier ranking system.


Dirk never played on a team nearly as stacked as those Heat and played in the brutal west yet he led his team to two Finals and won one. Could have won two, if not for Wade ref magic in 06, but you know. :D

Depends on how you look at it, I disagree completely. To me, Dirk had the best support in his conference and lost in R1. Woe is me doesn't really sway me in a comparison vs Bron.


All I'm saying is if Dirk played his entire career in the east then he also would have piled on a ton of Finals appearances. He made the Finals with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his best help in 2006 as the #4 seed. On the way they upset the Spurs in game 7 at their house and beat the stacked Suns and MVP Steve Nash in the WCF. We all remember the magic of the 2011 run and all the more talented teams they beat on the way. You don't think he could have handled most of these east teams? Come now, that's disrespectful to Dirk.

The Suns were weak that year, they had lost Amare and weren't nearly the power they were the year prior when they had beat Dirk, nor the power they would become the year after. Josh Howard was mini-Kawhi Leonard and he played alongside Nash for many years. I would agree they upset the Spurs but they had the talent to compete with them, Dirk had the talent, he just had some unfortunate injuries and horrendous coaching decisions.

I love what ifs tho, lets give Dirk the same team hes had his entire career, but we'll either swap Cleveland out West or we have him compete vs Bron those years in the East. How many Finals and chips we talking for Dirk?

mngopher35
05-27-2016, 05:07 PM
I don't know, prime Wade and Bosh with a bigger role?

I think they get fresh fish OKC. If for no other reason because Russell was so careless and uncontrolled, D Wade would've been the perfect opposite.

I doubt they even get there if Bosh still gets injured. Lebron had an insane game 6 followed by a triple double to close that series out for the Heat while Wade wasn't that great overall and Bosh was injured/coming back from injury. That isn't being repeated just by giving one of them the extra volume. Also in the finals without Lebron I think KD becomes the best player and most impactful performer (based off the #'s KD and Westy were next best behind Lebron in that series).

Wade was having some injury issues starting up that post season and draining his knee etc so while he could be elite in spurts I don't think an expanded role helps him in this case either. He was a fantastic 2nd option don't get me wrong, just wouldn't have been the right time for him to put it on his back.

mngopher35
05-27-2016, 05:17 PM
One of my favorite what ifs. That first year? Maybe but it depends on where Bron goes and how the team can build. Highly unlikely Bron returns to Cleveland so if he goes to Chicago, they CRUSH Miami. He chooses NY then its likely Chicago makes the Finals. And then the years thereafter, either Wade and Bosh get injured (unless you want to argue not having Bron lessens their workload) and I dont see where they make the Finals.


Do they stay 100% healthy, cuz they couldn't do that with Bron carrying them. They dont make the Finals without Bron. Curious tho, what do you make of them actually posting worse numbers in the 2 years without Bron than they did while winning chips. I mean, unless we ignore efficiency, Im not seeing the advantage of this bigger role when it sacrifices what actually won them chips.....

I guess in my response I was assuming he meant Lebron stays with Cleveland but I agree that was very unlikely considering the state of that team. I think Chicago would have been a good chance for him to win a title coming from the east outside of Miami. Not sure there were any others he would have won with though.

I don't remember many west teams in the running, I think Spurs were mentioned as an outside chance due to only having TD and Parker on the books I think.

Bostonjorge
05-27-2016, 08:14 PM
The east is where DeMare gets you 2 games away form the finals yet we don't see him as a top 15 player in the league and some don't see him as a max player. The main reason is because we don't take the east serious. If you take your team to the second round out west your a top 10 player and on one of the all NBA teams. That's fact.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2016, 08:44 PM
The east is where DeMare gets you 2 games away form the finals yet we don't see him as a top 15 player in the league and some don't see him as a max player. The main reason is because we don't take the east serious. If you take your team to the second round out west your a top 10 player and on one of the all NBA teams. That's fact.

Really so Portland has a top 10 player? O.o

If Deroz was all the raptors had id agree... The Raptors might not have a top 15 player but they have 2 top 30 players with top 10 potential and 2 other guys who are balling out.... BUT YO THEY AINT TOP 10 PLAYERS

Bostonjorge
05-27-2016, 08:54 PM
Really so Portland has a top 10 player? O.o

If Deroz was all the raptors had id agree... The Raptors might not have a top 15 player but they have 2 top 30 players with top 10 potential and 2 other guys who are balling out.... BUT YO THEY AINT TOP 10 PLAYERS
Lillard made one of the all NBA team and is better then both the C on the first and second team. Lillard also has top 5 and MVP potential. Second round out west gets you that.

Supreme LA
05-27-2016, 10:08 PM
There's only 1 idiot arguing that the East is more competitive than the West and that's More-than-Most. There's no point debating it with the guy because he'll develop any amount of flawed reasoning to try and argue with you.

Simply put, you can't argue with stupid. Just let him be.

numba1CHANGsta
05-27-2016, 10:19 PM
There's only 1 idiot arguing that the East is more competitive than the West and that's More-than-Most. There's no point debating it with the guy because he'll develop any amount of flawed reasoning to try and argue with you.

Simply put, you can't argue with stupid. Just let him be.

He's LeBron's #1 Fan so that says a lot about the guy

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2016, 09:04 AM
One of my favorite what ifs. That first year? Maybe but it depends on where Bron goes and how the team can build. Highly unlikely Bron returns to Cleveland so if he goes to Chicago, they CRUSH Miami. He chooses NY then its likely Chicago makes the Finals. And then the years thereafter, either Wade and Bosh get injured (unless you want to argue not having Bron lessens their workload) and I dont see where they make the Finals.


Do they stay 100% healthy, cuz they couldn't do that with Bron carrying them. They dont make the Finals without Bron. Curious tho, what do you make of them actually posting worse numbers in the 2 years without Bron than they did while winning chips. I mean, unless we ignore efficiency, Im not seeing the advantage of this bigger role when it sacrifices what actually won them chips.....

Its natural decline. Wade is 3 years older and Bosh is in his 30's. Of course they are going to be worse than three years ago. Same as Lebron who has also declined. Not to mention Bosh's health issues.

And regarding conference disparity. Do you think the Raptors are a better built team than your clippers? Do you think Lowry and DeRozan are better players than CP3, Blake, Deandre? Because they have gotten further then the Clippers ever have. Wouldnt you like to see what the Clips could do out east?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2016, 09:17 AM
Getting to 6 finals in a row is impressive no doubt. I just think when the media slobbers over it without context is what people dont like. We all know he doesnt get to 6 straight in the west. We know his record vs 50 win teams is not impressive and very limited. I think if he had a winning record in the finals, all the backlash would be subsided. That would at least show his team would have been the best in the west. Right now its seems hes really only made 2 finals in a lot of peoples eyes. I would love to see him leave Cleveland and sign out west with a team.

CKinKC
05-28-2016, 09:40 AM
The East has been terrible for 10+ years and isn't talked about enough! Lebron is no dummy, he will never go out West

Chronz
05-28-2016, 09:51 AM
The East has been terrible for 10+ years and isn't talked about enough! Lebron is no dummy, he will never go out West
Yeah cuz going out East really elevated Melo.

Dade County
05-28-2016, 09:56 AM
The East has been terrible for 10+ years and isn't talked about enough! Lebron is no dummy, he will never go out West


When i see post like this, I just don't understand the logic.


He was drafted in the East, spent 7yrs with Cav's (held his rights...etc). Then he signed with his friends and enjoyed South Beach. Then the league made away for him to go back home (lottery picks...etc).

When in that time period should he have signed with a team out West and why?


Also, do you really not think, if Lbj wanted to, he could inform OKC or whoever front office that he wants to sign their. You don't think that team can start shipping people off, and get james under that Cap. If Lbj signed with OKC, RING! If he signed with GS or Spurs, RING!

So whats the point of him going out West, he still would win RINGS!

CKinKC
05-28-2016, 11:51 AM
Yeah cuz going out East really elevated Melo.


Ummmm Melo is your argument?

CKinKC
05-28-2016, 11:52 AM
When i see post like this, I just don't understand the logic.


He was drafted in the East, spent 7yrs with Cav's (held his rights...etc). Then he signed with his friends and enjoyed South Beach. Then the league made away for him to go back home (lottery picks...etc).

When in that time period should he have signed with a team out West and why?


Also, do you really not think, if Lbj wanted to, he could inform OKC or whoever front office that he wants to sign their. You don't think that team can start shipping people off, and get james under that Cap. If Lbj signed with OKC, RING! If he signed with GS or Spurs, RING!

So whats the point of him going out West, he still would win RINGS!

Every playoff team in the West would be at worst the #2 seed in East...FACT

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 11:54 AM
Getting to 6 finals in a row is impressive no doubt. I just think when the media slobbers over it without context is what people dont like. We all know he doesnt get to 6 straight in the west. We know his record vs 50 win teams is not impressive and very limited. I think if he had a winning record in the finals, all the backlash would be subsided. That would at least show his team would have been the best in the west. Right now its seems hes really only made 2 finals in a lot of peoples eyes. I would love to see him leave Cleveland and sign out west with a team.

This is exactly it, for me.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 11:57 AM
Yeah cuz going out East really elevated Melo.

Extreme straw man is extreme. If Melo was playing on Miami with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh those years they would have still made 4 straight Finals.

Chronz
05-28-2016, 11:58 AM
This is exactly it, for me.

Swap out the conference finalists, which years does Bron not make the Finals in your opinion?

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 12:03 PM
I dont like the word inflation, it implies some kind of objective approach to a barometer of some kind. Like when people say Wilt's rebounding numbers are inflated, what they actually mean is that his per game averages are inflated(via possessions). We can actually estimate his numbers in eras with less possessions and directly translate the impact those numbers have vs its respective era with percentages. Thats an actual barometer that begins with an objective approach you can then deviate from. What you're suggesting isn't inflation to me, you may wish to discredit it in some way, but him doing whats expected of him is actually a sign of his greatness. Like, this is a sport where Dirk, in an MVP season loses in the first round to a subpar team, so if its inflation, then you should have a translation. How many Finals do other players make in similar situations and why havent they produced as dominantly and consistently as Bron has?


Thats how it is for every great, nobody ever has the same road to greatness. Thats why its idiotic when people list rings as some sort of tier ranking system.


Depends on how you look at it, I disagree completely. To me, Dirk had the best support in his conference and lost in R1. Woe is me doesn't really sway me in a comparison vs Bron.


The Suns were weak that year, they had lost Amare and weren't nearly the power they were the year prior when they had beat Dirk, nor the power they would become the year after. Josh Howard was mini-Kawhi Leonard and he played alongside Nash for many years. I would agree they upset the Spurs but they had the talent to compete with them, Dirk had the talent, he just had some unfortunate injuries and horrendous coaching decisions.

I love what ifs tho, lets give Dirk the same team hes had his entire career, but we'll either swap Cleveland out West or we have him compete vs Bron those years in the East. How many Finals and chips we talking for Dirk?

OK, if you think Dirk had the best support in the west just because they won 67-games then you have to say the same about the Cavs who had the best record in the NBA with 66 and 61 wins. Also the only back-to-back 60 win teams in NBA history not to make a Finals appearance in either.

The 67-win Mavs had MVP Dirk and one All-Star in Josh Howard. They didn't have a single All-NBA player or All-Defensive team player. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the west had 4 All-Star substitutes that year due to injury, which is how Josh Howard made the team as an alternate. Same as All-Star Mo Williams.

Dirk had Steve Nash for a few years, who did make an All-NBA 3rd team while in Dallas, but after that he never had anything remotely close to a stacked roster. Dirk with Wade and Bosh do more than just fine, that's easy enough to deduce since he beat them and LeBron without a single All-Star.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 12:06 PM
Swap out the conference finalists, which years does Bron not make the Finals in your opinion?

2007 and last year are the easy choices. 2007 because that roster wasn't good enough, last year due to injuries. Last year in Miami also applies being that they got the worst Finals beat down since 1972 and were less competitive than any of the 3 west teams that the Spurs played that year.

First year in Miami is interesting because he may have actually had a better chance of succeeding if he was in the west. This is purely because he choked hardcore in the Finals and that would have been easier to survive vs a lesser east opponent. However, being that Dallas beat them and other teams more talented than them, that isn't fair to Dallas.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 12:13 PM
The thing is you can say the same about any team that loses in the Finals. Obviously if they lost in the Finals then they would not have beat that team if they had to face them in the conference finals or earlier. The thing is LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals, which really just proves that they weren't worthy more often than not. Kobe is 5-2, Duncan is 5-1 and they've had to deal with each other on top of it.

That's less an indictment on LeBron than it is on the eastern conference. It's no different than Jason Kidd having 2 Finals appearances and Steve Nash having none or many other examples. There are people who say LeBron sucks because he has lost Finals and there are people who say he's great just getting to 6 Finals (now 7). I think both cases ignore the bigger picture.

CKinKC
05-28-2016, 12:42 PM
Nobody is saying Lebron sucks, just saying that he in a way is over ranked historically when he should have more than 2 rings if he's the second coming of Jordan, or top 5 in history. Let me ask you guys this....how many rings should he have at end of his career to get noted as one of the top 5 or even to 10 in history?? More than 3 IMO

CHANGO
05-28-2016, 12:47 PM
The thing is you can say the same about any team that loses in the Finals. Obviously if they lost in the Finals then they would not have beat that team if they had to face them in the conference finals or earlier. The thing is LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals, which really just proves that they weren't worthy more often than not. Kobe is 5-2, Duncan is 5-1 and they've had to deal with each other on top of it.

That's less an indictment on LeBron than it is on the eastern conference. It's no different than Jason Kidd having 2 Finals appearances and Steve Nash having none or many other examples. There are people who say LeBron sucks because he has lost Finals and there are people who say he's great just getting to 6 Finals (now 7). I think both cases ignore the bigger picture.

So we should give players a pass when they get eliminated before reaching the Finals but criticize the other for reaching the Finals and competing against the best of the best and not winning?

Duncan is 5-1 but how about the times he got eliminated before the Finals? Isn't that worst? Losing against the Clippers in the 1st round? OKC 2nd round? If this was Lebron, we would be talking about how he sucks because he can't even get to a Finals.

It's just stupid to criticize Finals record without context.

FlashBolt
05-28-2016, 01:07 PM
The thing is you can say the same about any team that loses in the Finals. Obviously if they lost in the Finals then they would not have beat that team if they had to face them in the conference finals or earlier. The thing is LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals, which really just proves that they weren't worthy more often than not. Kobe is 5-2, Duncan is 5-1 and they've had to deal with each other on top of it.

That's less an indictment on LeBron than it is on the eastern conference. It's no different than Jason Kidd having 2 Finals appearances and Steve Nash having none or many other examples. There are people who say LeBron sucks because he has lost Finals and there are people who say he's great just getting to 6 Finals (now 7). I think both cases ignore the bigger picture.

1) LeBron wouldn't be in as many Finals appearances and would probably still have two rings.. or more. He would probably be 3-4 in the Finals if you actually gave him a comparable team in the West. You can say he won't make as many NBA Finals in the WC but you can for sure say he will win most of the NBA Finals..
2) The bigger picture is that LeBron still gives any team the best chance to win in the NBA Finals. The best team wins the NBA Finals. That's all there is to it. If the Cavs don't win and LeBron does play well, then it is what it is. But I don't quite care about NBA Finals losses as long as the individual shows up to play. 2011 was a travesty. LeBron and Heat should have won that decisively. It was an embarrassment. The others? Sorry. I'm not going to fault a player for playing extremely well but just being beat by another team because they were better. It's the same for the Pistons, tbh. Yes, they lost to the Cavs but they put up a battle. I think that was a great experience for them.

Chronz
05-28-2016, 01:31 PM
The thing is you can say the same about any team that loses in the Finals. Obviously if they lost in the Finals then they would not have beat that team if they had to face them in the conference finals or earlier. The thing is LeBron is 2-4 in the Finals, which really just proves that they weren't worthy more often than not. Kobe is 5-2, Duncan is 5-1 and they've had to deal with each other on top of it.

That's less an indictment on LeBron than it is on the eastern conference. It's no different than Jason Kidd having 2 Finals appearances and Steve Nash having none or many other examples. There are people who say LeBron sucks because he has lost Finals and there are people who say he's great just getting to 6 Finals (now 7). I think both cases ignore the bigger picture.

Well said.

Chronz
05-28-2016, 02:04 PM
OK, if you think Dirk had the best support in the west just because they won 67-games then you have to say the same about the Cavs who had the best record in the NBA with 66 and 61 wins. Also the only back-to-back 60 win teams in NBA history not to make a Finals appearance in either.
You're right, but thats not what Im saying/thinking. I think Dirk had the best support because of the talent and production of his teammates and even if Im wrong and he only had the 3rd or 4th best supporting cast, it still doesn't completely exonerate the failure to advance beyond R.1

I know those Cavs teams like the back of my hand, they were a great team no doubt, a huge disappointment, but that doesn't reflect on Bron as much as you think. Like Dirk's R1 choke job becomes abit more understandable when you consider he was going up against his former coach and the rivalry between Avery and Nelson, the fact that Avery changed his lineup to matchup with an inferior team instead of imposing its will on it. Only the key differences are that Dirk lost in R.1, played beyond awful with all the attention on him and quite frankly, had more help besides him.

Brons Cavs teams were often injured in key sections and his 2nd best player was MO WILL!! A perennial playoff choker who is best served coming off the bench for a contender. Those Cavs teams overachieved to a degree I've never seen from any team that didn't win the title.



The 67-win Mavs had MVP Dirk and one All-Star in Josh Howard. They didn't have a single All-NBA player or All-Defensive team player. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the west had 4 All-Star substitutes that year due to injury, which is how Josh Howard made the team as an alternate. Same as All-Star Mo Williams.

I remember, lots of injuries that year but one of them (Yao) was out from the starting lineup and "replaced" by Melo IIRC. Josh Howard was basically the first or 2nd choice of the litter and in the West, thats a tough position to crack. Very similar to Mo, except that Mo couldn't cut it out East on the best team (BY A MILE). Dirk also had Jason Terry playing at a similar level to Brons "All-Star" as his 3rd best guy.


Dirk had Steve Nash for a few years, who did make an All-NBA 3rd team while in Dallas, but after that he never had anything remotely close to a stacked roster. Dirk with Wade and Bosh do more than just fine, that's easy enough to deduce since he beat them and LeBron without a single All-Star.

In year 1 of their existence when they were shallow outside their top-3 and were starting the corpses of Dampier and Bibby, they had no inkling of the pace and space offense to come and were running a you take your turn, ill take mine type of offense. Dirk didn't even outplay Wade in his Finals victory IMO so I dont agree that its as simple as you claim. Between Bron and Dirk, Dirk has the biggest bed stain in losing in R.1 his MVP season. Dirk had stacked rosters, he just underachieved with them to a much greater degree.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 02:05 PM
So we should give players a pass when they get eliminated before reaching the Finals but criticize the other for reaching the Finals and competing against the best of the best and not winning?

Duncan is 5-1 but how about the times he got eliminated before the Finals? Isn't that worst? Losing against the Clippers in the 1st round? OKC 2nd round? If this was Lebron, we would be talking about how he sucks because he can't even get to a Finals.

It's just stupid to criticize Finals record without context.

No, I believe that I practically said the opposite. Read the second paragraph again.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 02:11 PM
1) LeBron wouldn't be in as many Finals appearances and would probably still have two rings.. or more. He would probably be 3-4 in the Finals if you actually gave him a comparable team in the West. You can say he won't make as many NBA Finals in the WC but you can for sure say he will win most of the NBA Finals..
2) The bigger picture is that LeBron still gives any team the best chance to win in the NBA Finals. The best team wins the NBA Finals. That's all there is to it. If the Cavs don't win and LeBron does play well, then it is what it is. But I don't quite care about NBA Finals losses as long as the individual shows up to play. 2011 was a travesty. LeBron and Heat should have won that decisively. It was an embarrassment. The others? Sorry. I'm not going to fault a player for playing extremely well but just being beat by another team because they were better. It's the same for the Pistons, tbh. Yes, they lost to the Cavs but they put up a battle. I think that was a great experience for them.

1) Miami was plenty stacked enough and it was good for 2-2. There's no reason to even pretend that they would have been more successful in a much more difficult conference. Cleveland is also plenty stacked but they had injuries last year, which is life in sports.

2) Read my second paragraph again. LeBron is a unique case because he needed the failure of 2011 to wake his brain up to become the player he became the following two seasons. Before then everything in LeBron's life came too easy for him and it was easy for him to blame everything else for his failures. This is illuminated in how he chose to leave Cleveland and that pep rally. Not 1, not 2... you know the rest.

In LeBron's mind he was just great and the only reason he failed was because of his teammates or his coaches. He thought it was going to be easy once he ended up on a stacked team in Miami. It took him getting a giant humble pie in those 2011 for him to put forth the effort most of us wanted to see from him all along. He took his shooting, defense and post play to all new levels and trusted his teammates more than ever. He elevated himself to a truly all-time great level instead of just an all-time great talent. That is why he won those 2 rings. Every player has their own journey and has to experience different things.

Chronz
05-28-2016, 02:12 PM
2007 and last year are the easy choices. 2007 because that roster wasn't good enough, last year due to injuries. Last year in Miami also applies being that they got the worst Finals beat down since 1972 and were less competitive than any of the 3 west teams that the Spurs played that year.

First year in Miami is interesting because he may have actually had a better chance of succeeding if he was in the west. This is purely because he choked hardcore in the Finals and that would have been easier to survive vs a lesser east opponent. However, being that Dallas beat them and other teams more talented than them, that isn't fair to Dallas.

I was speaking more about his recent run of 6 in a row but 2007 would be a logical choice, except that we have to keep in mind that the Cavs defeated a team superior to their own on route to that Finals. If they can take down Detroit, who else aside from San Antonio would have beaten them that year? Im sure you can list at least 2 teams tho, so I will agree, just curious about the teams.

I would also agree with his last Miami team losing beforehand, prolly last year too but Bron destroying the 60 win Hawks without Love and an ailing Kyrie was pretty damn impressive. Im sure Bron could have mustered one of those performances between the 2 years hes been dethroned to at least make the Finals. Keep in mind, in 2011, Dallas is in the East for this comp because we are trying to determine the 2nd best team in the league. I remember saying Miami was like the 5th best team in the league in their final run to the Finals. So yeah, less Finals births but I doubt a guy like Dirk could have replicated this feat.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 03:03 PM
You're right, but thats not what Im saying/thinking. I think Dirk had the best support because of the talent and production of his teammates and even if Im wrong and he only had the 3rd or 4th best supporting cast, it still doesn't completely exonerate the failure to advance beyond R.1

I condensed this for the sake of thread traffic, not to ignore what you said. You definitely make good points and plenty I agree with. To me, the two teams are similar. They were both led by an all time great player and they were both very good teams. Both teams lacked true star talent in support and it's been proven throughout most of NBA history that you need that come playoff time.

The 67-win Mavs and 66-Cavs demises came from a similar result, great coaching. Dirk being a 7-footer and not the most mobile guy, and Golden State having a bunch of good athletes, it was easy for Nelson to send doubles and triples to force the ball out of his hands. He knew the supporting cast wasn't all that and put the ball and series in their hands. Nobody could step up enough to deal with the onslaught that BoomDizzle, Stephen Jackson and J-Rich brought upon them and they lost.

Orlando was the opposite. They did what I always thought teams should do and couldn't understand why they didn't. LeBron is too gifted an athlete and a passer and the Cavs PnR game was too strong to waste your time sending hard doubles at him. All you're going to do is end up short handed when he gets by or set him up for extremely easy wide open passes. Orlando did the smart thing, focus on the not so stellar offensive support around him. Easy enough to focus on them, even with their lack of strong defenders, and let LeBron do what he wants. He's going to run out of gas and no matter how good he is one player isn't going to beat you 4 times in 7 games. They knew they had that and the Dwight matchup on poor old Big Z. They did that and they won. GS did the same thing in last years Finals.

I don't think either are particularly guilty for those series losses. The playoffs are about matchups and those smart coaches knew how to exploit theirs in their favor. They were guilty of being so good to win that many games with those teams and create such high expectations lol.


In year 1 of their existence when they were shallow outside their top-3 and were starting the corpses of Dampier and Bibby, they had no inkling of the pace and space offense to come and were running a you take your turn, ill take mine type of offense. Dirk didn't even outplay Wade in his Finals victory IMO so I dont agree that its as simple as you claim. Between Bron and Dirk, Dirk has the biggest bed stain in losing in R.1 his MVP season. Dirk had stacked rosters, he just underachieved with them to a much greater degree.

I agree that Wade was even better than Dirk, and it's a shame that one of the best individual Finals series' ever was rewarded with a L. LeBron needed that L individually to wake up and realize that winning is never easy and quite frankly Miami needed that Bosh injury to stumble into the pace and space system that made them one of the best teams of all time.

Dirk's round 1 L may be worse than any of LeBron's but by the same token the way he elevated the 2006 and 2011 Mavs also easily trumps any of LeBron's team accomplishments. I do find LeBron better but I don't think the gap is as crazy as the numbers/general opinion suggests. Then again, I go against the strain in general in that I don't think a lot of the player gaps are nearly as large as they are made to appear.

FOXHOUND
05-28-2016, 03:07 PM
I was speaking more about his recent run of 6 in a row but 2007 would be a logical choice, except that we have to keep in mind that the Cavs defeated a team superior to their own on route to that Finals. If they can take down Detroit, who else aside from San Antonio would have beaten them that year? Im sure you can list at least 2 teams tho, so I will agree, just curious about the teams.

I would also agree with his last Miami team losing beforehand, prolly last year too but Bron destroying the 60 win Hawks without Love and an ailing Kyrie was pretty damn impressive. Im sure Bron could have mustered one of those performances between the 2 years hes been dethroned to at least make the Finals. Keep in mind, in 2011, Dallas is in the East for this comp because we are trying to determine the 2nd best team in the league. I remember saying Miami was like the 5th best team in the league in their final run to the Finals. So yeah, less Finals births but I doubt a guy like Dirk could have replicated this feat.

Yup, I don't disagree with any of this. :cheers:

CHANGO
05-28-2016, 04:49 PM
No, I believe that I practically said the opposite. Read the second paragraph again.

Yes man, I got you!

That's why I wrote my response. It wasn't directed at you it was at the people you mention "who say LeBron sucks because he has lost Finals" I think that's stupid without looking at the context especially when they are comparing Lebron with players like Kobe, Duncan, etc... with great records on Finals.

As you say, it is about the bigger picture.

WaDe03
05-28-2016, 08:20 PM
It depends, is he on th Heat next year? If not, this is his last year of ruling the East.

nastynice
05-29-2016, 05:15 AM
It depends, is he on th Heat next year? If not, this is his last year of ruling the East.

lol :cheers:

The whole bosh situation makes everything for the heat so wild card

WaDe03
05-29-2016, 01:03 PM
lol :cheers:

The whole bosh situation makes everything for the heat so wild card

Yea, probably same **** next year lol.

TDE
05-29-2016, 01:55 PM
There is no teams with three legitimate stars on the East aside from the Cavs. So Cavs are going to keep going to the Finals until that changes.

jason
05-29-2016, 02:19 PM
Till Durant and Westbrook go to different teams on the east...

Supreme LA
05-29-2016, 09:15 PM
It depends, is he on th Heat next year? If not, this is his last year of ruling the East.

If Bosh was healthy, I believe they would have beaten the Cavs in a series.

WaDe03
05-30-2016, 12:19 AM
If Bosh was healthy, I believe they would have beaten the Cavs in a series.

Same here, it's a shame.