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View Full Version : Is Bender anywhere near Simmons or Ingram?



mrblisterdundee
05-24-2016, 09:23 PM
Most of the talk I've heard has been about whether Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram will go first in the draft. Either sounds like a big win. But are teams sleeping on Dragan Bender? I keep reading about his shooting touch, ability to alter shots at the rim and great passing skills. The dude's rail thin at 7'1" and 225 pounds, but he's only 18 years old.
New York surprised a lot of people by taking rail-thin, 19-year-old Kristaps Porzingis fourth last year, but they ended up with the second-best rookie season from a draft deep with big men.

5ass
05-24-2016, 09:41 PM
How's his defense and is he physical at all?

slaker619
05-24-2016, 09:57 PM
Could go wrong or great like it did for the Knicks drafting a player of his caliber

STRIKERC
05-24-2016, 10:03 PM
People keep ignoring the experience factor.
Porzingis played 3 years pro basketball in the second best league in the world. I don't think anybody should expect Bender to come over and have the same initial impact.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2016, 10:08 PM
I think this guy is a disaster waiting to happen. He's the anti-Porzingis as far as I know. I admit that isn't much, in terms of his personality mainly. Here's the big difference: this guy Bender is pure P-word. Potential, that is. He played 7 games in the Euroleague last year for 10.4 MPG shooting .333/.250/.500. He played 3 games in the Eurocup for a total of 12 minutes and hit zero shots.

Porzingis was signed by a pro club when he was 15-years old. By his last season there he was shooting .556/.459/.707 and playing 20+ MPG. He never shot below 47% from the field a single year of his career over there.

This guy Bender is coming over when he's clearly way too raw to even be thinking about it. He and his agent are trying to take advantage of a weak draft class to go high and I don't blame them for that. He clearly shouldn't be in this draft though.

Teeboy1487
05-24-2016, 10:14 PM
I think this guy is a disaster waiting to happen. He's the anti-Porzingis as far as I know. I admit that isn't much, in terms of his personality mainly. Here's the big difference: this guy Bender is pure P-word. Potential, that is. He played 7 games in the Euroleague last year for 10.4 MPG shooting .333/.250/.500. He played 3 games in the Eurocup for a total of 12 minutes and hit zero shots.

Porzingis was signed by a pro club when he was 15-years old. By his last season there he was shooting .556/.459/.707 and playing 20+ MPG. He never shot below 47% from the field a single year of his career over there.

This guy Bender is coming over when he's clearly way too raw to even think about coming over here. He and his agent are trying to take advantage of weak draft class to go high and I don't blame them for that. He clearly shouldn't be in this draft though.
Agreed. Lets be real, only an idiot would include Bender in the conversation with Simmons and Ingram. Not you OP. I'm just a littled POed about a certain little article I read earlier today.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2016, 10:21 PM
Agreed. Lets be real, only an idiot would include Bender in the conversation with Simmons and Ingram. Not you OP. I'm just a littled POed about a certain little article I read earlier today.

Yeah, this guy is more like a mid-round stash project pick rather than a top 3 selection. If the Lakers take him over one of those two then they have lost their minds.

numba1CHANGsta
05-24-2016, 10:37 PM
I'll never understand why FO's have so much love for International players. Most of them are one dimensional, weak, play no defense, and have the biggest bust rate in the NBA. So many get drafted in the middle 1st round and then you never hear from them again LOL

IndyRealist
05-25-2016, 12:33 AM
I'll never understand why FO's have so much love for International players. Most of them are one dimensional, weak, play no defense, and have the biggest bust rate in the NBA. So many get drafted in the middle 1st round and then you never hear from them again LOL

They're usually late first round, not middle, and they are draft and stash players. Teams like the Spurs don't need those guys to come and help out right away, so they draft guys they know will keep playing in Europe and develop there without impacting the Spurs payroll. If those guys become good, the Spurs bring them over. If they don't, you didn't pay them any salary anyway.

And without looking it up, I suspect college players have a far greater "bust rate".

Wade n Fade
05-25-2016, 12:37 AM
Does Bender get the same talk if Porzingas gets drafted later in the 2015 draft while having a closer to pedestrian rookie year?

jphysics
05-25-2016, 01:37 AM
Chad Ford of ESPN is quite high on Bender. https://lakeshowlife.com/2016/05/23/nba-draft-2016-lakers-dragan-bender-kristaps-porzingis-chad-ford/

From articles I have ready and a few videos, compared to Porzingis, Bender is:

Less athletic.
A worse shot blocker.
Less experienced.
A better passer.
A more versatile defensive player.
It is not obvious who the better shooter is, though Ford claims Bender is superior.

Ford argues that Andrei Kirilenko is more similar to Bender than Porzingis is.

In my opinion, the success of Porzingis is a bad reason to draft Bender. Superficial similarities between Bender and Porzingis are inflating Bender's value.

As a Laker fan, I am hoping for Ingram or Simmons.

More-Than-Most
05-25-2016, 01:39 AM
No... Its simmons/Ingram------------------------->Everyone else... Hell id rather have Murr/Hield over bendy.

shep33
05-25-2016, 01:56 AM
bust

ISIAH_THOMAS
05-25-2016, 02:15 AM
I could see Bender being better than Ingram. Simmons is the best player in this draft from a talent standpoint to me. Such a dynamic skill set.

Aust
05-25-2016, 02:39 AM
Youngest player in the draft. He'll take a few years unlike Porz.

He's a tier below the other two. If we got the 3rd pick, he would be my guy.

If whoever ends up picking at 3 doesn't choose Bender, they will regret it. I think he has a chance to be the best player in this draft.

Aust
05-25-2016, 02:44 AM
Agreed. Lets be real, only an idiot would include Bender in the conversation with Simmons and Ingram. Not you OP. I'm just a littled POed about a certain little article I read earlier today.

I think I know the article you are talking about. Pure speculative garbage, a "rumor" without sources.

numba1CHANGsta
05-25-2016, 02:46 AM
They're usually late first round, not middle, and they are draft and stash players. Teams like the Spurs don't need those guys to come and help out right away, so they draft guys they know will keep playing in Europe and develop there without impacting the Spurs payroll. If those guys become good, the Spurs bring them over. If they don't, you didn't pay them any salary anyway.

And without looking it up, I suspect college players have a far greater "bust rate".

I wasn't saying number of busts, I was saying the rate of busts as in percentage of players. For example lets say 20 players get drafted in the first round from college and 10 from international. If 10 of the 20 college players meet or exceed expectations thats a 50% bust rate, but lets say only 3 of the 10 international players who get drafted meet or exceed expectations then thats a 70% bust rate. AND idc if they're playing oversees, bottom-line is they got drafted and if they never play in the NBA then they were a bust.

More-Than-Most
05-25-2016, 03:26 AM
If the lakers or sixers do anything else except take Simmons/Ingram both front officers should be shown the door.... Even if both players are cut 4 years from now and never become anything but mediocre... There is no excuse at all and I have a really bad feelings one of them will do just that and Boston will be gifted one of these 2 players.

Jeffy25
05-25-2016, 04:18 AM
KP raised his stock more than anything probably.

Teams can't help but compare, and if he can't compare in the NBA, then it's a huge waste.


Guy is def a project, but with good skills.


But I wouldn't take him over Simmons or Ingram most likely.

IndyRealist
05-25-2016, 08:22 AM
I wasn't saying number of busts, I was saying the rate of busts as in percentage of players. For example lets say 20 players get drafted in the first round from college and 10 from international. If 10 of the 20 college players meet or exceed expectations thats a 50% bust rate, but lets say only 3 of the 10 international players who get drafted meet or exceed expectations then thats a 70% bust rate. AND idc if they're playing oversees, bottom-line is they got drafted and if they never play in the NBA then they were a bust.

Yes I know you were saying percentage. How many college players get drafted and never make it to their second contract? A lot of 2nd rounders get cut in training camp. I count 4 1st round international players last year, 8 2nd round. 12 out of 60. In 10 years a greater percentage of those 12 will probably be in the league than the college players.

Kyben36
05-25-2016, 09:25 AM
being a euro guy its hard to say, much like with previous guys like porzingis, i think he is surely a top 10 tallent, maybe even top 5, but its hard to know if he is as good as the two your are comparing him too. seeing as we have yet to see enough of him to say that for sure.

Hawkeye15
05-25-2016, 10:41 AM
Tall Euros scare me. For every Dirk/Porz, there are a bunch of guys who stick around a few years than go crawling back to Europe with their tail between their legs. I would personally avoid them early in the draft. If they turn out great, so be it, they beat the statistical odds...

Add to it, Bender barely plays, so how the hell do you even evaluate him? Darko looked good running around chairs, how did that turn out?

LA4life24/8
05-25-2016, 10:52 AM
I don't think you can take him over ingram/simmons. And the more I watch of dunn I'm not sure you can take him over dunn either. He's too young and doesn't have much to prove that he is the real deal. Porzingis did and teams still passed on him. But he will still go top 6 for sure.

BoSox47
05-25-2016, 11:01 AM
No... Its simmons/Ingram------------------------->Everyone else... Hell id rather have Murr/Hield over bendy.

No way would I take Hield over Bender. Hield is a future 6th/7th man in the league, especially considering his poor defense against smaller, younger and less experienced college players. Hield will be drafted 3-4 spots later than Bender.

Hield will be somewhere in the middle between a Jamal crawford and a marcus thornton.

I dont think Bender will be better than Ingram/Simmons but he will be a solid well rounded player who has a much higher ceiling than Hield.

warfelg
05-25-2016, 11:02 AM
Tall Euros scare me. For every Dirk/Porz, there are a bunch of guys who stick around a few years than go crawling back to Europe with their tail between their legs. I would personally avoid them early in the draft. If they turn out great, so be it, they beat the statistical odds...

Add to it, Bender barely plays, so how the hell do you even evaluate him? Darko looked good running around chairs, how did that turn out?

Pretty much this. Especially that last part. He's got like 10 minutes per game to go off. Most his "eye popping numbers" are per48 or per100poss numbers. Which don't always translate for low usage players.

IndyRealist
05-25-2016, 01:01 PM
Pretty much this. Especially that last part. He's got like 10 minutes per game to go off. Most his "eye popping numbers" are per48 or per100poss numbers. Which don't always translate for low usage players.

There is no correlation between usage and efficiency. Just because someone is low usage doesn't mean they get worse or better at high usage. And high usage players don't suddenly become better with less usage. It just depends on the player.

tp13baby
05-25-2016, 07:15 PM
Depends. Boston who seems to be on the rise quickly probably shouldn't take him. He is a project, much more raw the Kristnaps was. But to say your an idiot to put him in the conversation of Ingram and Simmons is pretty funny. You hear it every year.

Bender shouldn't and won't drop below 5. His potential alone is worth the pick.

Aust
05-26-2016, 12:20 AM
Exactly. I love how people bring up the busts when making their anti-European arguments, but in reality, these are all the recent first round picks who played their pre-draft season in Europe:

2015

4th pick: Porzingis - looking like a good pick

5th pick: Hezonja - too soon to tell

26th pick: Nikola Milutinov - way too soon to tell

2014

12th pick: Saric - too soon to tell

16th pick: Nurkic - looking good

25th pick: Capela - looking like a really good pick

27th pick: Bogan Bogdanovich (not Bojan) - too soon to tell

2013

15th pick: Giannis - great pick

16th pick: Bebe Nogueria - too soon to tell but I don't like he'll be that good

17th pick: Schroder - another great pick

19th pick: Karasev - bad pick

27th pick: Gobert - great pick

28th pick: Livio Jean-Charles - too soon to tell

2012

20th pick: Evan Fournier - definitely a good pick, although they traded him too soon

2011

5th pick: Valanciunas - good pick

6th pick: Vesely - bust

7th pick: Biyombo - not a good pick because he didn't do much under his rookie contract, but he has now turned into a good center

20th pick: DMo - pretty good pick

23rd pick: Mirotic - pretty good pick

2010

17th pick: Kevin Seraphin - not a good pick

2009

5th pick: Ricky Rubio - good pick if you ignore who went 2 later

10th pick: Brandon Jennings - different circumstances, but fine pick

22nd pick: Victor Claver - not good

23rd pick: Omri Casspi - pretty good

25th pick: Rodrigue Beaubois - not good

30th pick: Christian Eyenga - not good

2008

6th pick: Gallo - good pick

20th pick: Ajinca - ok

24th pick: Ibaka - really good pick

25th pick: Batum - another really good pick

So why again do European picks have the reputation of having high bust potential?


Saw this comment on reddit.

warfelg
05-26-2016, 07:58 AM
Saw this comment on reddit.

Not a bad list but don't agree 100%. Giving lots of guys with 1-1.5 years of decent play the "good pick" label. If you consider things like Fourniers year, ignore the beginning of Boyiamo (I can't spell his name) career and signing a cheap deal just to be on a team, and the way a few others have guys one good year so far, then yea you can make the list sound better than it is.

IndyRealist
05-26-2016, 08:29 AM
Not a bad list but don't agree 100%. Giving lots of guys with 1-1.5 years of decent play the "good pick" label. If you consider things like Fourniers year, ignore the beginning of Boyiamo (I can't spell his name) career and signing a cheap deal just to be on a team, and the way a few others have guys one good year so far, then yea you can make the list sound better than it is.

So really if you just ignore the last two draft because it's "too soon", what you're really saying is that Euro picks are even better than this list indicates.

IndyRealist
05-26-2016, 08:38 AM
The days of Darko Milicic and Andrea Bargnani are over. The NBA sends scouts out to watch international players regularly instead of a game or two a year, and the proprietary analytics have gotten pretty good.

NBA scouting in Europe is almost as good as it is here, with the added benefit of players that have been playing professionally since they were 16. Part of the problem scouting college is that the competition is generally immature physically and it's hard to tell how a guy will go against bigger, stronger, faster NBA players. Euros play against grown men.

warfelg
05-26-2016, 09:28 AM
So really if you just ignore the last two draft because it's "too soon", what you're really saying is that Euro picks are even better than this list indicates.

No. Not at all what I'm saying. You've put words in my mouth twice in this thread.

I'm saying he's giving a few players with one good year credit as to being a "good pick" when he should be giving them an "ok" or "indifferent" grade.

IndyRealist
05-26-2016, 10:06 AM
No. Not at all what I'm saying. You've put words in my mouth twice in this thread.

I'm saying he's giving a few players with one good year credit as to being a "good pick" when he should be giving them an "ok" or "indifferent" grade.
Just realized i misread what you said. My bad.

Sssmush
05-26-2016, 04:05 PM
Dargon Benderitich