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Lionel20
05-02-2016, 12:57 PM
*There are some players that may have a high enough win score to be included but failed to meet the MP cutoff
*All players are listed by my own version of Player Value converted into Wins
* Player Value is based on "Alternative Wins Shares" and "Value Over Replacement Player" formulas, however significantly changed to include more defensive metrics (Primarily SportsVU defensive tracking). ETC.
*PV Shares assess league quality - which theoretically takes into consideration, the actual talent pool, and the affects NBA rule changes may have on the quality of competition.

*Most importantly ALL players' Value stats are on an ALL-TIME scale, for instance enabling cross-era comparisons: How does Draymond Green's play so far compare with 1971 Elvin Hayes. In order to accomplish this, I needed a balanced era to serve as a level field of comparison - the 90s was selected. It may have been a bit favorable to Centers, but compared to other era's I believe their was more of a competitive balance from all positions. Today's game, for a variety of reasons, has neutralized the Center position, and the rules are more favorable for parameters players, making it almost impossible to reasonably compare these players to players from other era's without league average and league quality adjustments.

Well, I've made those reasonable adjustments. I thought I'd mentioned this so that viewers can read my work better. All of my player evals are from an all-time reference and perspective. I can break down all my formulas if requested, from my Usage Rate on down. Just think of it as reverse inflation, this is how Kevin Durant eg 2016 numbers look from within balanced context.




Name Score
1 LeBron James 15.96
2 Stephen Curry 15.08
3 Kevin Durant 14.74
4 Russell Westbrook 14.30
5 James Harden 13.67
6 Karl-Anthony Towns 13.19
7 DeAndre Jordan 12.83
8 Draymond Green 12.79
9 Kawhi Leonard 12.76
10 Andre Drummond 12.19
11 Chris Paul 12.09
12 Paul Millsap 12.08
13 John Wall 11.98
14 Paul George 11.91
15 Kyle Lowry 11.90
16 Kemba Walker 11.88
17 Al Horford 11.75
18 Brook Lopez 11.75
19 DeMarcus Cousins 11.73
20 Pau Gasol 11.44
21 Anthony Davis 11.44
22 Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.21
23 LaMarcus Aldridge 10.80
24 Greg Monroe 10.77
25 Hassan Whiteside 10.76
26 Damian Lillard 10.61
27 Marcin Gortat 10.22
28 Jimmy Butler 9.86
29 Nikola Vucevic 9.74
30 Isaiah Thomas 9.72
31 Dwight Howard 9.70
32 Carmelo Anthony 9.63
33 Andrew Wiggins 9.63
34 DeMar DeRozan 9.46
35 Rajon Rondo 9.15
36 Klay Thompson 8.90
37 Enes Kanter 8.77
38 Khris Middleton 8.76
39 Thaddeus Young 8.74
40 Dwyane Wade 8.54
41 Kevin Love 8.52
42 Jeff Teague 8.47
43 Robin Lopez 8.34
44 Gordon Hayward 8.29
45 Derrick Favors 8.28
46 Goran Dragic 8.25
47 Nikola Jokic 8.24
48 C.J. McCollum 8.05
49 Victor Oladipo 8.01
50 Nicolas Batum 7.88
51 Dirk Nowitzki 7.87
52 Ricky Rubio 7.81
53 Gorgui Dieng 7.74
54 Tobias Harris 7.74
55 Monta Ellis 7.53
56 Tristan Thompson 7.41
57 Steven Adams 7.37
58 Marvin Williams 7.29
59 Mason Plumlee 7.23
60 Jae Crowder 7.19
61 Rudy Gobert 7.17
62 Reggie Jackson 7.03
63 Nerlens Noel 7.00
64 Trevor Ariza 6.98
65 Zaza Pachulia 6.95
66 Zach Randolph 6.92
67 Ed Davis 6.91
68 Kenneth Faried 6.87
69 Kristaps Porzingis 6.80
70 Aaron Gordon 6.79
71 Serge Ibaka 6.73
72 Jared Sullinger 6.71
73 Jrue Holiday 6.69
74 Rudy Gay 6.68
75 George Hill 6.64
76 Marcus Morris 6.64
77 Darren Collison 6.63
78 Avery Bradley 6.60
79 Evan Turner 6.60
80 Will Barton 6.54
81 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope 6.51
82 Marc Gasol 6.39
83 Taj Gibson 6.39
84 Jonas Valanciunas 6.38
85 Kyrie Irving 6.33
86 Chris Bosh 6.33
87 Mike Conley 6.29
88 Ian Mahinmi 6.29
89 Luol Deng 6.25
90 Amir Johnson 6.25
91 Ryan Anderson 6.20
92 Cody Zeller 6.18
93 J.J. Redick 6.15
94 Jabari Parker 6.14
95 Tony Parker 6.11
96 Otto Porter 6.00
97 Clint Capela 5.98
98 P.J. Tucker 5.90
99 Danilo Gallinari 5.89
100 Ish Smith 5.88
101 Deron Williams 5.69
102 Evan Fournier 5.66
103 Jahlil Okafor 5.65
104 Lou Williams 5.64
105 Tim Duncan 5.61
106 Jordan Clarkson 5.61
107 Bismack Biyombo 5.52
108 Kent Bazemore 5.49
109 Wesley Matthews 5.46
110 Elfrid Payton 5.38
111 Rodney Hood 5.36
112 Al-Farouq Aminu 5.33
113 Julius Randle 5.32
114 Joe Johnson 5.30
115 Raymond Felton 5.30
116 Andrew Bogut 5.29
117 Derrick Rose 5.22
118 Tyson Chandler 5.17
119 Chandler Parsons 5.15
120 Jerami Grant 5.13
121 Jordan Hill 5.11
122 Patrick Beverley 5.07
123 Gary Harris 5.07
124 Courtney Lee 5.00
125 Thabo Sefolosha 4.94
126 Blake Griffin 4.94
127 Jamal Crawford 4.92
128 Shabazz Muhammad 4.91
129 Dennis Schroder 4.88
130 Ramon Sessions 4.86
131 Kosta Koufos 4.85
132 Jeff Green 4.85
133 Derrick Williams 4.81
134 D'Angelo Russell 4.78
135 Willie Cauley-Stein 4.77
136 David West 4.75
137 Trevor Booker 4.72
138 Andre Iguodala 4.69
139 Harrison Barnes 4.68
140 J.J. Barea 4.64
141 T.J. McConnell 4.63
142 Zach LaVine 4.62
143 Langston Galloway 4.52
144 Brandon Knight 4.47
145 Shane Larkin 4.44
146 Jeremy Lin 4.42
147 Omri Casspi 4.42
148 Kelly Olynyk 4.40
149 Jose Calderon 4.39
150 Jared Dudley 4.37
151 Bradley Beal 4.37
152 Shaun Livingston 4.36
153 Michael Carter-Williams 4.35
154 Patrick Mills 4.31
155 Brandon Bass 4.28
156 Cory Joseph 4.28
157 Alex Len 4.24
158 Allen Crabbe 4.22
159 Mario Chalmers 4.20
160 J.R. Smith 4.19
161 Aron Baynes 4.19
162 Myles Turner 4.18
163 Ersan Ilyasova 4.09
164 Nikola Mirotic 4.08
165 Eric Bledsoe 4.06
166 Robert Covington 4.06
167 Kobe Bryant 4.02
168 Lavoy Allen 4.01
169 Al Jefferson 3.98
170 Patrick Patterson 3.98
171 Kyle Korver 3.98
172 Marcus Smart 3.87
173 Frank Kaminsky 3.84
174 Timofey Mozgov 3.84
175 Mirza Teletovic 3.83
176 Arron Afflalo 3.81
177 Danny Green 3.80
178 Maurice Harkless 3.76
179 JaMychal Green 3.75
180 Tony Allen 3.72
181 Matt Barnes 3.70
182 Jon Leuer 3.66
183 Terrence Ross 3.65
184 Justise Winslow 3.60
185 Jeremy Lamb 3.58
186 Boris Diaw 3.54
187 Manu Ginobili 3.54
188 Matthew Dellavedova 3.53
189 Darrell Arthur 3.45
190 Nene Hilario 3.41
191 Markieff Morris 3.41
192 Roy Hibbert 3.39
193 Larry Nance Jr. 3.38
194 Joffrey Lauvergne 3.37
195 Luis Scola 3.30
196 Andre Roberson 3.23
197 Dion Waiters 3.19
198 Donald Sloan 3.15
199 Austin Rivers 3.13
200 Toney Douglas 3.08
201 Wesley Johnson 3.08
202 Emmanuel Mudiay 3.05
203 Kyle Anderson 3.04
204 Jason Smith 3.03
205 Lance Stephenson 3.03
206 Bobby Portis 3.00
207 Trey Burke 2.97
208 T.J. Warren 2.96
209 Mike Scott 2.90
210 Gerald Henderson 2.88
211 Garrett Temple 2.87
212 Devin Harris 2.85
213 Devin Booker 2.84
214 Eric Gordon 2.83
215 Gerald Green 2.80
216 Rodney Stuckey 2.79
217 Isaiah Canaan 2.77
218 Dante Cunningham 2.77
219 Corey Brewer 2.72
220 Jerryd Bayless 2.72
221 Doug McDermott 2.67
222 Omer Asik 2.64
223 Alonzo Gee 2.61
224 Hollis Thompson 2.60
225 Bojan Bogdanovic 2.59
226 D.J. Augustin 2.59
227 Marcus Thornton 2.57
228 C.J. Miles 2.56
229 Jarrett Jack 2.52
230 Nik Stauskas 2.50
231 Ty Lawson 2.50
232 Shelvin Mack 2.46
233 Trey Lyles 2.42
234 Jerian Grant 2.37
235 Channing Frye 2.35
236 Anthony Tolliver 2.31
237 Terrence Jones 2.28
238 Wayne Ellington 2.27
239 Marco Belinelli 2.25
240 E'Twaun Moore 2.23
241 Raul Neto 2.16
242 Meyers Leonard 2.14
243 Leandro Barbosa 2.13
244 Aaron Brooks 2.10
245 Luc Mbah a Moute 2.06
246 Jonas Jerebko 2.06
247 Archie Goodwin 2.05
248 Spencer Hawes 2.03
249 Lance Thomas 1.99
250 Ronnie Price 1.99
251 Stanley Johnson 1.91
252 Norris Cole 1.90
253 Richard Jefferson 1.88
254 Joe Ingles 1.87
255 Randy Foye 1.87
256 Tayshaun Prince 1.85
257 Mario Hezonja 1.82
258 Iman Shumpert 1.81
259 Nemanja Bjelica 1.79
260 Noah Vonleh 1.76
261 Vince Carter 1.73
262 Jameer Nelson 1.72
263 Ben McLemore 1.68
264 Jason Terry 1.67
265 Brandon Rush 1.65
266 Josh Richardson 1.64
267 JaKarr Sampson 1.41
268 Paul Pierce 1.36
269 Kevin Martin 1.31
270 Tony Snell 1.20
271 O.J. Mayo 1.09
272 Nick Young 1.00
273 P.J. Hairston 0.97

valade16
05-02-2016, 01:18 PM
Have to wonder how much this metric incorporates defense to claim Harden was better than Kawhi this season. Sure Harden scored 8 more PPG, but Kawhi was more efficient and elite on defense whereas Harden was so bad he has become a cliché for lack of defensive effort.

How can you reconcile that?

Hawkeye15
05-02-2016, 01:30 PM
how on earth do you have Stanley Johnson ahead of Norris Cole? I can't take this list seriously

DboneG
05-02-2016, 01:39 PM
I like! I think LeBron is about the only guy that can carry any team to the playoffs. And certain other teams to compete for a championship. No other guy can do this, other than maybe Kevin Durant.

I see a few things that people could question...John Wall over Paul George. NO SIR! I'm taking George all day.

Why are Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan so high. Both are great players. But, they kill you at the free throw line. So, much that they become a liability.

James Harden over Kawhi Leonard... Harden is horrible on the defensive end. Someone ask me to pick one out of the two, it's Kawhi!

Greg Monroe over Hassan Whitside?! No sir.

DboneG
05-02-2016, 01:41 PM
how on earth do you have Stanley Johnson ahead of Norris Cole? I can't take this list seriously

Because Norris Cole suck. I'd take Stanley Johnson over Norris Cole.

ewing
05-02-2016, 01:42 PM
where the hell is moochie norris?

S & B Bleeder
05-02-2016, 02:13 PM
No surprise that most of Dwayne overWaded's teammates (Lebron, Dragic, Deng, Whiteside) are topping this list while he resides at #40.

Dude is the ultimate coattail rider whose team wouldn't even make the playoffs in the weak east if he wasn't surrounded by All-stars and Hall of Famers.

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 02:19 PM
Have to wonder how much this metric incorporates defense to claim Harden was better than Kawhi this season. Sure Harden scored 8 more PPG, but Kawhi was more efficient and elite on defense whereas Harden was so bad he has become a cliché for lack of defensive effort.

How can you reconcile that?

"better" is a relative term...

My value shares is a counting stat, Harden played almost 800 more minutes than Kawhi this season.

Here's a breakdown of Value Share/MP


1 LeBron James 0.57%
2 Kevin Durant 0.55%
3 Stephen Curry 0.54%
4 Kawhi Leonard 0.52%
5 Russell Westbrook 0.50%
6 Karl-Anthony Towns 0.48%
7 DeAndre Jordan 0.48%
8 Andre Drummond 0.44%
9 Draymond Green 0.44%
10 James Harden 0.42%


When Kawhi's been on the floor, on the all-time scale, his production level is higher than Harden's.

I calculate my own variation of Usage Rate (2016 RS):

Harden USG% = 29.44
Leonard USG% = 22.27

Although Leonard's much more efficient, Harden's overall production is higher.


As far as measuring defense, in addition to box stat linear weighs, I included Sports VU defense tracking - Opponent FG Differential to be particular. It's one reason why I think that LeBron's 2016 RS is slightly more impressive than Curry's all things considered.

Opponents shot 37% this year when LeBron guarded them, over 7 pts below their average according to NBA.com's player tracking. I hope I don't need to elaborate on just how phenomenal that number is.

Scoots
05-02-2016, 02:21 PM
where the hell is moochie norris?

Unlike your namesake you are outside just raining straight daggers!

Scoots
05-02-2016, 02:25 PM
on the all-time scale

I think this is where you get in trouble. I understand why you normalized to the 90s, but there is no need to normalize to the 90s when all of the players are playing today. What happens to your list if you leave that out? (I'm not saying do it, just a thought exercise)

HandsOnTheWheel
05-02-2016, 02:28 PM
Bimbo Coles

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 02:29 PM
I like! I think LeBron is about the only guy that can carry any team to the playoffs. And certain other teams to compete for a championship. No other guy can do this, other than maybe Kevin Durant.

I see a few things that people could question...John Wall over Paul George. NO SIR! I'm taking George all day.

Why are Andre Drummond and DeAndre Jordan so high. Both are great players. But, they kill you at the free throw line. So, much that they become a liability.

James Harden over Kawhi Leonard... Harden is horrible on the defensive end. Someone ask me to pick one out of the two, it's Kawhi!

Greg Monroe over Hassan Whitside?! No sir.

Wall v George in my opinion at the conclusion of the 2016 RS is about as close as I have it. However, I add in postseason performance as bonus at the end of the playoffs, George will end up with the most 2016 Value Shares (playoffs included). Do you find it odd that Wall has twice as many blocks as George? It's not that that stat has a heavy influence on the outcomes, I just thought it was a typo at first.

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 02:35 PM
No surprise that most of Dwayne overWaded's teammates (Lebron, Dragic, Deng, Whiteside) are topping this list while he resides at #40.

Dude is the ultimate coattail rider whose team wouldn't even make the playoffs in the weak east if he wasn't surrounded by All-stars and Hall of Famers.

I don't think you read the list right, yes Wade is 40th, he played 2300 minutes this season, but Dragic & Deng, who both played more minutes than Wade are not ranked above Wade. And LeBron is no longer Wade's teammate in 2016.

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 02:47 PM
I think this is where you get in trouble. I understand why you normalized to the 90s, but there is no need to normalize to the 90s when all of the players are playing today. What happens to your list if you leave that out? (I'm not saying do it, just a thought exercise)

Well, Curry's the clear MVP again this year, but I'm giving the full historic perspective. Curry's 2016 season was a great season, but it's more equivalent to John Stockton '91 than an all-time NBA season in my opinion. Much like NFL QB's tossing 5,000 yards each season benefiting from hyper-offensive rules in the mid-to-late 90s, many of today's parameters players owe a great deal of their success to NBA rules changes, specifically, the 2004-05 set of rules proceeding Kobe's 35+ PPG season.

I'm only interested in how each individual players' season ranks within the history of NBA/ABA to be fair.

ewing
05-02-2016, 02:58 PM
Unlike your namesake you are outside just raining straight daggers!

I don't remember what game it was but during the tournament someone hit a 3 about 5 mins into the game and bill rafferty yells "early dagger". I was like when did this guy become a comedian?

Scoots
05-02-2016, 03:09 PM
Well, Curry's the clear MVP again this year, but I'm giving the full historic perspective. Curry's 2016 season was a great season, but it's more equivalent to John Stockton '91 than an all-time NBA season in my opinion. Much like NFL QB's tossing 5,000 yards each season benefiting from hyper-offensive rules in the mid-to-late 90s, many of today's parameters players owe a great deal of their success to NBA rules changes, specifically, the 2004-05 set of rules proceeding Kobe's 35+ PPG season.

I'm only interested in how each individual players' season ranks within the history of NBA/ABA to be fair.

I did say I understand why ... but people are confused when you are posting a listing of rankings of only 2016 seasons and are adjusting to 3 decades ago. They are used to watching today's game and what appears to be an artificial filter is being applied.

IndyRealist
05-02-2016, 03:10 PM
Wall v George in my opinion at the conclusion of the 2016 RS is about as close as I have it. However, I add in postseason performance as bonus at the end of the playoffs, George will end up with the most 2016 Value Shares (playoffs included). Do you find it odd that Wall has twice as many blocks as George? It's not that that stat has a heavy influence on the outcomes, I just thought it was a typo at first.

It's not odd. Paul George guards perimeter ballhandlers and backpedals a lot. On traps and switches he is far more likely to try for a steal than a block. The Pacers preimeter D in general focuses on staying in front of your man and forcing turnovers. Leaving your man for a weakside block or jumping after pump fakes is a big no-no.

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 03:52 PM
I did say I understand why ... but people are confused when you are posting a listing of rankings of only 2016 seasons and are adjusting to 3 decades ago. They are used to watching today's game and what appears to be an artificial filter is being applied.

I hear ya,

I tried to explain qualify the nature of my work in the OP. I guess what your saying is that people won't read my explanation and just scroll down the ranking list... oh well,

Lionel20
05-02-2016, 04:12 PM
It's not odd. Paul George guards perimeter ballhandlers and backpedals a lot. On traps and switches he is far more likely to try for a steal than a block. The Pacers preimeter D in general focuses on staying in front of your man and forcing turnovers. Leaving your man for a weakside block or jumping after pump fakes is a big no-no.

^
Makes sense,

But for a backpedaler, his 18.7 Dreb% is top 5 among high minute SF's, it's right there with LeBron. He seems to find himself in the paint a good bit, and with his athleticism I'd expect about 10-15 chase down blocks defending after turnovers.

Scoots
05-02-2016, 04:49 PM
I hear ya,

I tried to explain qualify the nature of my work in the OP. I guess what your saying is that people won't read my explanation and just scroll down the ranking list... oh well,

hehe, a bit more blunt that I intended, but yes. I find myself trying to explain to people whenever you post your list because people don't ever seem to read your explanation. I didn't read it this time myself, but just because I figured it hadn't substantially changed since last time :)

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2016, 09:28 AM
how on earth do you have Stanley Johnson ahead of Norris Cole? I can't take this list seriously

Right? And Archie Goodwin above of them. I mean... he's a great player, but top 250?

MonroeFAN
05-05-2016, 09:34 AM
how on earth do you have Stanley Johnson ahead of Norris Cole? I can't take this list seriously

What? Curious to hear the logic behind this statement.

Is it a coincidence that two members here who both appear to be stuck in 1980 have trouble understanding advanced metrics and the difference between being a rotational player on a playoff team and being a scrub scoring 10 points on 10 FGA on one of the worst teams in the league?

*shrug*

Stanley had a comparable TS% in his rookie season to Cole in his 5th season.
a higher VORP total.
Stanley had a higher B-P/M
Stanley had a higher D-B-P/M
Stanley had better WS totals
Stanley had a better STL % and BLK%
Stanley was the better rebounder
Stanley did all of this with a USG rate of 19.6 to Coles 21.7

Cole shot slightly better
Cole had better raw numbers that don't mean anything.

Stanley is a rookie.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2016, 11:02 AM
What? Curious to hear the logic behind this statement.

Is it a coincidence that two members here who both appear to be stuck in 1980 have trouble understanding advanced metrics and the difference between being a rotational player on a playoff team and being a scrub scoring 10 points on 10 FGA on one of the worst teams in the league?

*shrug*

Stanley had a comparable TS% in his rookie season to Cole in his 5th season.
a higher VORP total.
Stanley had a higher B-P/M
Stanley had a higher D-B-P/M
Stanley had better WS totals
Stanley had a better STL % and BLK%
Stanley was the better rebounder
Stanley did all of this with a USG rate of 19.6 to Coles 21.7

Cole shot slightly better
Cole had better raw numbers that don't mean anything.

Stanley is a rookie.

I think he was joking. When you are ranking players and you get all the way to 270....there is really no point in ranking them at that point. That level of talent is minimally different and it becomes more about what a team needs, and not whose WS is higher.