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Mr. Baller
04-18-2016, 09:12 AM
Top 3

Kawhi
Draymond
Hassan

SteBO
04-18-2016, 09:18 AM
Unquestionably deserved.....

DboneG
04-18-2016, 10:14 AM
NBA hype machine at it's finest! This guy is very good, but, not like you think. I been watching the games all season! And I haven't seen him put his stamp on games like Draymond Green or Hassan Whiteside. Now they are comparing his defense to Dennis Rodman! lol We may as well put him in the HOF. Yes! Kawhi Leonard is a living legend.

ManningToTyree
04-18-2016, 10:20 AM
That's how I would have had the top 3.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 10:21 AM
NBA hype machine at it's finest! This guy is very good, but, not like you think. I been watching the games all season! And I haven't seen him put his stamp on games like Draymond Green or Hassan Whiteside. Now they are comparing his defense to Dennis Rodman! lol We may as well put him in the HOF. Yes! Kawhi Leonard is a living legend.

You didn't watch jack... he's an amazing defender who has consistently put opposing SF's in terrible shooting performances. Comparing his defense to Dennis Rodman is not farfetched at this point. He's going to win at least five of these awards.

JasonJohnHorn
04-18-2016, 10:22 AM
Leonard is certainly deserving, and Draymond is on par with him. Such a tough award to call. Of all the guys in line for the award, Leonard and Draymond are the two who impact their team the most on both sides of the ball, and though it shouldn't, that does factor into this award. Guys like TOny Allen, and Taynshuan Prince, or Luol Deng (and I'm talking more so in years past), don't get the recognition that better two-way players get, or that shot blockers get. I think that's a little frustrating, because for me the DPOY should be going to role players like Bruce Bowen who make a big impact defensively, but the league isn't going to generate headlines if somebody like Tony Allen wins the award.


That said... Leonard and Draymond are very deserving.


I've read some statistical analysis of Whiteside, and have seen him play some (though admittedly not a lot), and it seems like he is a bit overrated. People too often equate shot blocking with defense. That is not always the case. I remember Rodman complaining that DRob was a horrid defender and that he had to cover for DRob a lot, but DRob won a couple of DPOY awards himself. When you watch plays of DRob, you seen that he often lets guys by him, but that he is so athletic that he is able to recover and get a blocked shot. Is that bad defense? Maybe, maybe not. But there is also a huge difference between a Dwight Howard block into the stands, and a Bill Russell tap block that leads to a steal as well (which DRob and Hakeem were also great at).


Not sure Whiteside deserve to be that high; just because you get the most blocks doesn't mean you are the best shot blocker or defender. But I may be being harsh on him. He is a great talent.

DboneG
04-18-2016, 10:25 AM
"According to NBA.com/Stats, they(Spurs) had a defensive rating of 94.9 when the five-year veteran was on the court and 99.2 when he wasn't"........ Sure! The Spurs run this slow ***** offense! And they have four slow starters...so, when Kawhi leave the floor, SURE! Their defensive rating will change.

ManningToTyree
04-18-2016, 11:09 AM
A case could be made for Green but to say Leonard isn't deserving is just silly

sixer04fan
04-18-2016, 12:00 PM
Well earned. He's a monster on D

KobeOwnSU
04-18-2016, 12:12 PM
Couldn't really go wrong with either Draymond or Kawhi. I personally would choose Kawhi but I see both sides of the argument. One thing that sets him apart to me is his consistency. Every possession, every night.

Dade County
04-18-2016, 12:16 PM
Hopefully Whiteside can be top 2 next year in Miami.

Scoots
04-18-2016, 12:40 PM
Kawhi is deserving ... Green should have won it last year, they could have made it up to him this year when he was just as deserving.

ghettosean
04-18-2016, 01:03 PM
Well deserved for sure.... He's a beast on the defensive end and the best 2 way player in basketball right now.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2016, 01:06 PM
Congrats to KL, excellent defender

RCarlson85
04-18-2016, 01:12 PM
Leonard is certainly deserving, and Draymond is on par with him. Such a tough award to call. Of all the guys in line for the award, Leonard and Draymond are the two who impact their team the most on both sides of the ball, and though it shouldn't, that does factor into this award. Guys like TOny Allen, and Taynshuan Prince, or Luol Deng (and I'm talking more so in years past), don't get the recognition that better two-way players get, or that shot blockers get. I think that's a little frustrating, because for me the DPOY should be going to role players like Bruce Bowen who make a big impact defensively, but the league isn't going to generate headlines if somebody like Tony Allen wins the award.


That said... Leonard and Draymond are very deserving.


I've read some statistical analysis of Whiteside, and have seen him play some (though admittedly not a lot), and it seems like he is a bit overrated. People too often equate shot blocking with defense. That is not always the case. I remember Rodman complaining that DRob was a horrid defender and that he had to cover for DRob a lot, but DRob won a couple of DPOY awards himself. When you watch plays of DRob, you seen that he often lets guys by him, but that he is so athletic that he is able to recover and get a blocked shot. Is that bad defense? Maybe, maybe not. But there is also a huge difference between a Dwight Howard block into the stands, and a Bill Russell tap block that leads to a steal as well (which DRob and Hakeem were also great at).


Not sure Whiteside deserve to be that high; just because you get the most blocks doesn't mean you are the best shot blocker or defender. But I may be being harsh on him. He is a great talent.

Whiteside is currently the best shot blocker in the NBA (by far) and also the best at keeping the ball in play rather than sending it into the stands. A great majority of his blocks lead to fast break opportunities for the Heat.

valade16
04-18-2016, 01:36 PM
I feel Kawhi and Green are indistinguishably the top 2 defenders and given that Kawhi won it last year I would have liked to have seen Green win it this year.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 02:22 PM
Draymond says Leonard deserves it. That's that.

JasonJohnHorn
04-18-2016, 02:37 PM
Whiteside is currently the best shot blocker in the NBA (by far) and also the best at keeping the ball in play rather than sending it into the stands. A great majority of his blocks lead to fast break opportunities for the Heat.

That may be, but being the best shot blocker doesn't make you the best defender.

Check out this post:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/12/21/10633150/hassan-whiteside-defense-stats-highlights-miami-heat


Give that Spo, but mid December, had already say Whiteside for 6 4th quarters, it seems like even the Heat coach agrees that the team is better with him on ht bench. The Heat's defensive ranking improves when he's on the bench, or at least it was part way through the season (not sure where it is now, as Bosh was out the last part of the season, which would negatively impact the numbers).


Games I've seen, he seems over anxious to get a block and so commits to a block attempt for a wing player coming in when his man is already following him, which opens up the guy Whiteside is supposed to be guarding.


What's impressive to me about Whiteside is his blocks-per-foul ratio. When guys like Oden came in the league, they'd get blocks, but they'd also get as many or more fouls. Whiteside gets 2 blocks for every foul. That is extremely impressive. So I would agree that he is likely the best shot blocker, I was only suggesting that the highest average does not equate the best shot blocker (I don't think Howard was every the best shot blocker in the league, for example, and he led the league in that category several times).

I would say that Whiteside is a better shotblocker than Howard ever was; however, I would also argue that Howard was a better defender in his prime.

In the 80's and 90's, if you led the league in steals or blocks, you were in line for the DPOY award; I don't like that, because excelling in one raw statistical category does not make you a good defender. Iverson, for example, was a horrid defender and he got lots of steals.

I don't mean to knock Whiteside... I have a great deal of respect for his work ethic and his ability, but it seems like his basketball IQ on defense is nowhere near where his athleticism is, and as a result, he is simply not as strong a defender as his blocking average suggests.

Consider JaVale McGee and DeAndre Jordan. Both have great shot blocking numbers, but neither has ever been the defender that Duncan has been. That said, I don't mean to suggest that Whiteside isn't better than either of those two examples.

Respectfully.

Chronz
04-18-2016, 02:44 PM
Draymond deserved it last year. I would like to see him win 1 eventually, sucks this wasn't the year given what you said. Maybe the league is making up for never giving Duncan his due on that end, dude should have about 2-3 of them by my count.

kdspurman
04-18-2016, 02:50 PM
Draymond deserved it last year. I would like to see him win 1 eventually, sucks this wasn't the year given what you said. Maybe the league is making up for never giving Duncan his due on that end, dude should have about 2-3 of them by my count.

Still baffles my mind he never won it.

Chronz
04-18-2016, 02:59 PM
Still baffles my mind he never won it.

Had the statistical revolution taken place 5 years sooner, Duncan wins Camby's for sure.

KnicksorBust
04-18-2016, 03:03 PM
You didn't watch jack... he's an amazing defender who has consistently put opposing SF's in terrible shooting performances. Comparing his defense to Dennis Rodman is not farfetched at this point. He's going to win at least five of these awards.

:laugh: Let's take it easy there bud. Dwight Howard had won 3 DPOY awards when he was 25 years old and he tapped out after that. It's not as easy as you think.


That may be, but being the best shot blocker doesn't make you the best defender.

Check out this post:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/12/21/10633150/hassan-whiteside-defense-stats-highlights-miami-heat


Give that Spo, but mid December, had already say Whiteside for 6 4th quarters, it seems like even the Heat coach agrees that the team is better with him on ht bench. The Heat's defensive ranking improves when he's on the bench, or at least it was part way through the season (not sure where it is now, as Bosh was out the last part of the season, which would negatively impact the numbers).


Games I've seen, he seems over anxious to get a block and so commits to a block attempt for a wing player coming in when his man is already following him, which opens up the guy Whiteside is supposed to be guarding.


What's impressive to me about Whiteside is his blocks-per-foul ratio. When guys like Oden came in the league, they'd get blocks, but they'd also get as many or more fouls. Whiteside gets 2 blocks for every foul. That is extremely impressive. So I would agree that he is likely the best shot blocker, I was only suggesting that the highest average does not equate the best shot blocker (I don't think Howard was every the best shot blocker in the league, for example, and he led the league in that category several times).

I would say that Whiteside is a better shotblocker than Howard ever was; however, I would also argue that Howard was a better defender in his prime.

In the 80's and 90's, if you led the league in steals or blocks, you were in line for the DPOY award; I don't like that, because excelling in one raw statistical category does not make you a good defender. Iverson, for example, was a horrid defender and he got lots of steals.

I don't mean to knock Whiteside... I have a great deal of respect for his work ethic and his ability, but it seems like his basketball IQ on defense is nowhere near where his athleticism is, and as a result, he is simply not as strong a defender as his blocking average suggests.

Consider JaVale McGee and DeAndre Jordan. Both have great shot blocking numbers, but neither has ever been the defender that Duncan has been. That said, I don't mean to suggest that Whiteside isn't better than either of those two examples.

Respectfully.

That also has to do with blocks compared to personal fouls. One of my favorite underrated Duncan stats is that there are seasons where he actually had more blocks than fouls. Pretty rare for an elite shot blocker.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 03:06 PM
Draymond deserved it last year. I would like to see him win 1 eventually, sucks this wasn't the year given what you said. Maybe the league is making up for never giving Duncan his due on that end, dude should have about 2-3 of them by my count.

No doubt TD should have a few but tough to argue against Dwight/Ben Wallace those days. Could have inserted them here and there for a couple of seasons but it is what it is. No matter what happens, players will always be snubbed.

DboneG
04-18-2016, 03:09 PM
"a panel of 130 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada.".....Really!! What a joke.

The fact that Patrick Beverley got ZERO votes should tell you something.
The fact that Tony Allen, even though he's older got like 3 votes is a joke.
The fact that Kawhi got TWICE as many first place votes than Draymond tells us that the hype machine was in full effect. The voters were saying he was head and shoulders better than Draymond! Which is clearly not the case. The voting should have been a lot closer.

My guess is: San Antonio will be losing Duncan and Pops this summer.
The NBA is helping where they can to protect San Antonio brand as much as they can. Just like Kevin Durant said...Kawhi was a "system player" in 14', and didn't regret saying it. This is what system players get....run away awards! I called bs when Marc Gasol won it a few years back.
The NBA is closely controlled and something like the WWF.

BallDontLie
04-18-2016, 03:14 PM
damn someone is upset the best defensive player in the league won an award for it.

Chronz
04-18-2016, 03:26 PM
No doubt TD should have a few but tough to argue against Dwight/Ben Wallace those days. Could have inserted them here and there for a couple of seasons but it is what it is. No matter what happens, players will always be snubbed.

You didn't mention Marcus Camby, the most overrated defender in league history. Surely you could have given him one of Ben's, they just discounted Duncan because he was also a scorer. Artest won his off BS propaganda that the ignorant media couldn't refute due to the lack of statistical savvy. Thats at least 3 right there. I cant recall someone whos made more all-defensive 1st teams yet failed to win the award, its worse now that even in his old age hes still an elite rim protector. Thats why I respected the stat analysts more back then, they were the only ones to call people out for their fairy tales.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 04:04 PM
You didn't mention Marcus Camby, the most overrated defender in league history. Surely you could have given him one of Ben's, they just discounted Duncan because he was also a scorer. Artest won his off BS propaganda that the ignorant media couldn't refute due to the lack of statistical savvy. Thats at least 3 right there. I cant recall someone whos made more all-defensive 1st teams yet failed to win the award, its worse now that even in his old age hes still an elite rim protector. Thats why I respected the stat analysts more back then, they were the only ones to call people out for their fairy tales.

I did mention Camby via "could have won it here or there." Players get snubbed. That same year Camby won, Duncan's teammate Bowen was 2nd in voting.

CodeRed
04-18-2016, 04:11 PM
Kawhi and Draymond were the two obvious candidates. I think Draymond is a bit more versatile considering he guards bigs more often than Leonard.

kdspurman
04-18-2016, 04:16 PM
Kawhi and Draymond were the two obvious candidates. I think Draymond is a bit more versatile considering he guards bigs more often than Leonard.

He does, but Kawhi guards the teams best players, for the most part every night. Draymond has Iggy to do that on many occasions. How often is Draymond matched up with a Westbrook or Harden for the majority of a game, and not just off a switch? Kawhi has guarded those guys, and Lebron's and the Durant's of the world, for the entirety of games, and has played and defended 4's when Pop decides to play smaller.

Longhornfan1234
04-18-2016, 04:23 PM
Green was robbed again.... Sad day for the NBA.

ManningToTyree
04-18-2016, 04:30 PM
damn someone is upset the best defensive player in the league won an award for it. seriously. You would think they gave it to Jose Calderon the way he's talking haha. Clearly doesn't watch the Spurs much

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 05:01 PM
Green was robbed again.... Sad day for the NBA.

How was he robbed? Make some sense please.

Chronz
04-18-2016, 05:18 PM
I did mention Camby via "could have won it here or there." Players get snubbed. That same year Camby won, Duncan's teammate Bowen was 2nd in voting.
Yeah it's so weird they graded him higher, it's Almost as if they were punishing Duncan for having a better defensive team but they've contradicted themselves on that front before, I'm sure of it.

JasonJohnHorn
04-18-2016, 05:32 PM
My guess is: San Antonio will be losing Duncan and Pops this summer.
The NBA is helping where they can to protect San Antonio brand as much as they can. Just like Kevin Durant said...Kawhi was a "system player" in 14', and didn't regret saying it. This is what system players get....run away awards! I called bs when Marc Gasol won it a few years back.
The NBA is closely controlled and something like the WWF.


??????????????????????????????

Have you watched the Spurs over the last 20 years? They get hammered by the officials. Constantly.

And what makes you think Pop and Duncan are done this season? He's under contract for next season. You think he's going to walk away from 5 million? Especially after he got taken to the cleaners by his business manager?

DboneG
04-18-2016, 05:45 PM
How was he robbed? Make some sense please.




http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html

Defensive win shares
1. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 6.0
2. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 5.5
3. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 5.5
4. Andre Drummond ▪ DET 5.5
5. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 5.3
6. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.1




Defensive Box Plus/Minus
efensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 5.0
2. Rudy Gobert ▪ UTA 4.8
3. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.2
4. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 3.9
5. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.8
6. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
7. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 3.4
8. Nerlens Noel ▪ PHI 3.4
9. Ian Mahinmi ▪ IND 3.3
10. Amir Johnson ▪ BOS 3.2
11. Mason Plumlee ▪ POR 3.0
12. Danny Green ▪ SAS 3.0
13. Thabo Sefolosha ▪ ATL 2.8
14. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 2.8



Draymond Green played 81 games!
Kawhi Leonard played 70 games....he really missed too many games.



15 people did not even put Green in the top 3!! smh



The players don't get a say in the matter. The Associated Press gets to decide how they're awarded pretty much.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 05:50 PM
Defensive win shares
Draymond Green 2nd
Kawhi Leonard 6th



Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Draymond Green 5th
Kawhi Leonard 9th



Draymond Green played 81 games!
Kawhi Leonard played 70 games....he really missed too many games.



15 people did not even put Green in the top 3!! smh



The players don't get a say in the matter. The Associated Press gets to decide how they're awarded pretty much. NBA=WWF Hype
Kawhi is the one who is 2nd in DWS... and Draymond #6. you have your ranking confused.. don't get excited. Funny how you leave out their defensive rating.. good going. I'm going to go on the bat here and assume you've never watched Kawhi play. Using those two stats above, shouldn't Paul Milsap be the DPOY? Or is there a faulty misunderstanding here?

DboneG
04-18-2016, 05:53 PM
What planet you live on?! The Spurs get calls constantly! They are slow and the refs favor them all the time! BTW, the earth is flat. Maybe that's why you are lost. Thinking you are on a spinning ball moving 1,000mph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p72cOVaVoTA

DboneG
04-18-2016, 05:55 PM
[QUOTE=FlashBolt;30854148]Kawhi is the one who is 2nd in DWS... and Draymond #6. you have your ranking confused.. don't get excited. Funny how you leave out their defensive rating.. good going. I'm going to go on the bat here and assume you've never watched Kawhi play. Using those two stats above, shouldn't Paul Milsap be the DPOY? Or is there a faulty misunderstanding here?[/QUOTE





http://www.basketball-reference.com/...6_leaders.html

Defensive win shares
1. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 6.0
2. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 5.5
3. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 5.5
4. Andre Drummond ▪ DET 5.5
5. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 5.3
6. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.1




Defensive Box Plus/Minus
efensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 5.0
2. Rudy Gobert ▪ UTA 4.8
3. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.2
4. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 3.9
5. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.8
6. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
7. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 3.4
8. Nerlens Noel ▪ PHI 3.4
9. Ian Mahinmi ▪ IND 3.3
10. Amir Johnson ▪ BOS 3.2
11. Mason Plumlee ▪ POR 3.0
12. Danny Green ▪ SAS 3.0
13. Thabo Sefolosha ▪ ATL 2.8
14. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 2.8



Draymond Green played 81 games!
Kawhi Leonard played 70 games....he really missed too many games.


Fact of the matter. There is no way Kawhi should have gotten twice the number of first place votes over Draymond. It should have been a whole lot closer. Even with Draymond being the winner.

Milsap?! So, why did the writers not even consider Milsap seeing he was leading in defensive categories. I'm going to assume you don't know much about basketball.

ManningToTyree
04-18-2016, 06:02 PM
Kawhi is the one who is 2nd in DWS... and Draymond #6. you have your ranking confused.. don't get excited. Funny how you leave out their defensive rating.. good going. I'm going to go on the bat here and assume you've never watched Kawhi play. Using those two stats above, shouldn't Paul Milsap be the DPOY? Or is there a faulty misunderstanding here?



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html you are looking at last years stats.

kdspurman
04-18-2016, 06:08 PM
you are looking at last years stats.

That would explain it!

Vinylman
04-18-2016, 06:10 PM
He does, but Kawhi guards the teams best players, for the most part every night. Draymond has Iggy to do that on many occasions. How often is Draymond matched up with a Westbrook or Harden for the majority of a game, and not just off a switch? Kawhi has guarded those guys, and Lebron's and the Durant's of the world, for the entirety of games, and has played and defended 4's when Pop decides to play smaller.

and this is why it shouldn't even be close

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 06:14 PM
Very tough for a big man to win it against an exceptional wing in what is a guard driven league. That wing just creates more trouble since we are seeing a decline in big man scoring down in the paint. So, what you have is Kawhi playing a more important defensive role than Green is. Also, I'd like to believe that Kawhi offensively does more than Green and thus, the effort level he exerts on the defensive end is amazing. There's a lot of intangibles that go into this so let's just for the sake of God give it to the guy who is assigned the task of guarding the best player more often than not.

DboneG
04-18-2016, 06:15 PM
That's incorrect....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_leaders.html

Defensive win shares
1. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 6.0
2. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 5.5
3. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 5.5
4. Andre Drummond ▪ DET 5.5
5. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 5.3
6. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.1




Defensive Box Plus/Minus
efensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 5.0
2. Rudy Gobert ▪ UTA 4.8
3. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.2
4. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 3.9
5. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.8
6. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
7. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 3.4
8. Nerlens Noel ▪ PHI 3.4
9. Ian Mahinmi ▪ IND 3.3
10. Amir Johnson ▪ BOS 3.2
11. Mason Plumlee ▪ POR 3.0
12. Danny Green ▪ SAS 3.0
13. Thabo Sefolosha ▪ ATL 2.8
14. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 2.8



Draymond Green played 81 games!
Kawhi Leonard played 70 games....he really missed too many games.


Fact of the matter. There is no way Kawhi should have gotten twice the number of first place votes over Draymond. It should have been a whole lot closer. Even with Draymond being the winner.

kdspurman
04-18-2016, 06:19 PM
Kawhi played 72 games.. Missed 10 games. Not that big a deal. Last year there was a stronger argument for Draymond when Kawhi played 64.

Draymond probably should've played less if he was T'd up as often as he should be lol

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 06:24 PM
That's incorrect....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_leaders.html

Defensive win shares
1. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 6.0
2. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 5.5
3. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 5.5
4. Andre Drummond ▪ DET 5.5
5. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 5.3
6. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.1




Defensive Box Plus/Minus
efensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 5.0
2. Rudy Gobert ▪ UTA 4.8
3. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.2
4. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 3.9
5. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.8
6. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
7. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 3.4
8. Nerlens Noel ▪ PHI 3.4
9. Ian Mahinmi ▪ IND 3.3
10. Amir Johnson ▪ BOS 3.2
11. Mason Plumlee ▪ POR 3.0
12. Danny Green ▪ SAS 3.0
13. Thabo Sefolosha ▪ ATL 2.8
14. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 2.8



Draymond Green played 81 games!
Kawhi Leonard played 70 games....he really missed too many games.


Fact of the matter. There is no way Kawhi should have gotten twice the number of first place votes over Draymond. It should have been a whole lot closer. Even with Draymond being the winner.

Okay.. so you still won't admit you made a mistake in your false statement? Kawhi ranks above Draymond in defensive rating/DWS and Draymond ranks above Kawhi in DBP (which is a very terrible and probably the worst out of these three metrics). How much closer should it be? If people felt Kawhi was #1, it's only fitting that those same people vote Draymond #2 or below.

DboneG
04-18-2016, 06:43 PM
Fact: Kawhi plays 64 games last year and win DPOY. smh NBA HYPE

This year Kawhi plays 72 games and win DPOY. NBA HYPE...voting wasn't even close! smh

I can't take anything away from the guy. The voting should have been a whole lot closer.

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 06:48 PM
Fact: Kawhi plays 64 games last year and win DPOY. smh NBA HYPE

This year Kawhi plays 72 games and win DPOY. NBA HYPE...voting wasn't even close! smh

I can't take anything away from the guy. The voting should have been a whole lot closer.

Saying the voting should have been a whole lot closer is not the same as saying someone got robbed. You're basically discrediting what Kawhi did. I did expect it to be close but most of the votes going to Kawhi were #1 and thus, Green gets all the #2's. That's how it works. It was a close contest in reality.

DboneG
04-18-2016, 07:05 PM
Kawhi Leonard | San Antonio Spurs | 84 | 41 | 4 | 547
Draymond Green | Golden State Warriors | 44 | 62 | 15 | 421


84 1st place votes, to 44 1st place votes isn't close at all.

Vinylman
04-18-2016, 07:19 PM
Kawhi Leonard | San Antonio Spurs | 84 | 41 | 4 | 547
Draymond Green | Golden State Warriors | 44 | 62 | 15 | 421


84 1st place votes, to 44 1st place votes isn't close at all.

Don't worry dude... he will win the "players" DPOY award... the players know!!!!!

FlashBolt
04-18-2016, 07:53 PM
Kawhi Leonard | San Antonio Spurs | 84 | 41 | 4 | 547
Draymond Green | Golden State Warriors | 44 | 62 | 15 | 421


84 1st place votes, to 44 1st place votes isn't close at all.

Who's to say the 2nd place votes disparity (21) felt that Kawhi was a tad better (making it 65 for Green and 63 for Kawhi which could go either way)? It was close.. It's the law of averages, buddy.

Scoots
04-18-2016, 10:38 PM
Last year was a shame for Draymond because he got the most 1st place votes, but DJ got a bunch of votes he didn't deserve and Dray was also left off FAR more ballots than the other two finalists and thus finished 2nd.

But I don't question Kawhi being a deserving winner this year or last year.

basch152
04-18-2016, 10:51 PM
Im surprised drummond was top 10.

He's pretty average maybe above average defensively for a center.

Wade n Fade
04-19-2016, 11:41 AM
Whiteside got screwed. Anyone who can put up multiple triple double with blocks while being one of the best rebounders in the league certainly should get more 1st place votes. Leonard hasn't brought anything new to the table either that says he should win it over Whiteside or Draymond Green. But then again, Miami gets screwed in award or accolade voting:

No ASG for Whiteside this year and they put in Gasol who had multiple chances before. The league should've deferred to Whiteside since he can provide more excitement at the 5 in a pickup basketball game.

LeBron didn't get the MVP over D-Rose, who happens to be one of the most fraudulent MVP winners in NBA history.

Shaq lost the MVP to Steve Nash on one occasion.

Wade lost the MVP to LeBron despite leading the league in scoring and being more valuable than LeBron that season.

kdspurman
04-19-2016, 01:16 PM
Whiteside got screwed. Anyone who can put up multiple triple double with blocks while being one of the best rebounders in the league certainly should get more 1st place votes. Leonard hasn't brought anything new to the table either that says he should win it over Whiteside or Draymond Green. But then again, Miami gets screwed in award or accolade voting:

No ASG for Whiteside this year and they put in Gasol who had multiple chances before. The league should've deferred to Whiteside since he can provide more excitement at the 5 in a pickup basketball game.

LeBron didn't get the MVP over D-Rose, who happens to be one of the most fraudulent MVP winners in NBA history.

Shaq lost the MVP to Steve Nash on one occasion.

Wade lost the MVP to LeBron despite leading the league in scoring and being more valuable than LeBron that season.

Whiteside didn't get "screwed". The tasks Kawhi has against the leagues elite players is a very tall one. And even against non-elite players, his ability to take players out of their game and, play the passing lanes like he does, and rebound the ball, etc... he's extremely deserving of this award. Its an every night thing too, he doesn't take plays/nights off.

If he wasn't deserving, then maybe you could say Whiteside or Green were screwed. But that's just not true

RCarlson85
04-19-2016, 01:36 PM
That may be, but being the best shot blocker doesn't make you the best defender.

Check out this post:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/12/21/10633150/hassan-whiteside-defense-stats-highlights-miami-heat


Give that Spo, but mid December, had already say Whiteside for 6 4th quarters, it seems like even the Heat coach agrees that the team is better with him on ht bench. The Heat's defensive ranking improves when he's on the bench, or at least it was part way through the season (not sure where it is now, as Bosh was out the last part of the season, which would negatively impact the numbers).


Games I've seen, he seems over anxious to get a block and so commits to a block attempt for a wing player coming in when his man is already following him, which opens up the guy Whiteside is supposed to be guarding.


What's impressive to me about Whiteside is his blocks-per-foul ratio. When guys like Oden came in the league, they'd get blocks, but they'd also get as many or more fouls. Whiteside gets 2 blocks for every foul. That is extremely impressive. So I would agree that he is likely the best shot blocker, I was only suggesting that the highest average does not equate the best shot blocker (I don't think Howard was every the best shot blocker in the league, for example, and he led the league in that category several times).

I would say that Whiteside is a better shotblocker than Howard ever was; however, I would also argue that Howard was a better defender in his prime.

In the 80's and 90's, if you led the league in steals or blocks, you were in line for the DPOY award; I don't like that, because excelling in one raw statistical category does not make you a good defender. Iverson, for example, was a horrid defender and he got lots of steals.

I don't mean to knock Whiteside... I have a great deal of respect for his work ethic and his ability, but it seems like his basketball IQ on defense is nowhere near where his athleticism is, and as a result, he is simply not as strong a defender as his blocking average suggests.

Consider JaVale McGee and DeAndre Jordan. Both have great shot blocking numbers, but neither has ever been the defender that Duncan has been. That said, I don't mean to suggest that Whiteside isn't better than either of those two examples.

Respectfully.

I agree that the best shot blocker isn't necessarily the best defender. I'm clearly biased being a Heat fan but I wasn't commenting in an attempt to say that he should have been the DPOY. It was more to point out to people that don't watch Whiteside or the Heat as much that he does make an attempt whenever possible to keep the ball in play which is really valuable because it leads to a lot of fast breaks rather than giving the ball back. That was really the only point I was trying to make.

In regards to the Heat playing better with him off the floor, that seemed to be true in the first half of the season and there were times like you said where he was left off the floor at the end of a game. In the second half of the season that did improve though (for both him and the team overall) and he was regularly on the floor in the 4th when the game was on the line.

He still has room for improvement but he has shown that he's willing to work to improve. Even since this season started he's shown a vastly improved jump shot and a greatly improved free throw percentage. There are players who can't do that over the course of their whole career and he improved both mid-season. I did appreciate the thought/analysis you put into your last post rather than doing what a lot of people do and just write him off because he's been a knucklehead at times.

BKLYNpigeon
04-19-2016, 01:37 PM
Kawai Deserves it.

But 9 the Voters who left m Draymond Green off the ballot is disgraceful.

Scoots
04-19-2016, 02:13 PM
Kawai Deserves it.

But 9 the Voters who left m Draymond Green off the ballot is disgraceful.

He's making progress, IIRC he was left off more than twice that number last year. I'm pretty sure the voters just vote based on what their TV tells them.

valade16
04-19-2016, 02:27 PM
He's making progress, IIRC he was left off more than twice that number last year. I'm pretty sure the voters just vote based on what their TV tells them.

I don't see how that's possible. If people voted based off what their TV tells them Green would definitely be DPOY. The Warriors have dominated TV coverage (as they rightly should have) all season.

If anything the Warriors as an organization are getting shafted in terms of awards this season.

kdspurman
04-19-2016, 02:33 PM
I don't see how that's possible. If people voted based off what their TV tells them Green would definitely be DPOY. The Warriors have dominated TV coverage (as they rightly should have) all season.

If anything the Warriors as an organization are getting shafted in terms of awards this season.

Idk if they're getting shafted. Just cause they had a historic record doesn't mean they're entitled to most/all individual awards.

Last year Draymond had a stronger argument... But Kawhi was more than deserving this year, and lead the leagues best defense. They were the best defensive team all year. Not to mention they had a pretty decent season themselves.

Curry will be the MVP again, the COTY will be interesting since Kerr missed so much time, but maybe he'll get it anyway. Who knows at this point

Scoots
04-19-2016, 02:35 PM
I don't see how that's possible. If people voted based off what their TV tells them Green would definitely be DPOY. The Warriors have dominated TV coverage (as they rightly should have) all season.

If anything the Warriors as an organization are getting shafted in terms of awards this season.

But Warriors TV coverage is wins, 3pt shooting, Green's passing, etc. But the Spurs it's best Spurs team every, lead by Kawhi, and the best defense by a huge margin in the NBA, Kawhi carrying team and LMA's bad D and the Claw shuts down the biggest name players in the NBA etc.

When the Warriors play the best it's Steph Curry's offense vs the opponent. When the Spurs play the best it's Kawhi's D vs the opponent.

Wade n Fade
04-19-2016, 05:21 PM
Whiteside didn't get "screwed". The tasks Kawhi has against the leagues elite players is a very tall one. And even against non-elite players, his ability to take players out of their game and, play the passing lanes like he does, and rebound the ball, etc... he's extremely deserving of this award. Its an every night thing too, he doesn't take plays/nights off.

If he wasn't deserving, then maybe you could say Whiteside or Green were screwed. But that's just not true

Leonard doesn't deserve it this year because he simply just did his job. Does Tony Allen deserve DPOY during his prime? Not necessarily. Did Bruce Bowen either no? Whiteside had TRIPLE DOUBLES with BLOCKS. He anchored the Heat frontline at the basket. He literally changed the game when he came off the bench or started at the 5. Whiteside did get screwed.

kdspurman
04-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Leonard doesn't deserve it this year because he simply just did his job. Does Tony Allen deserve DPOY during his prime? Not necessarily. Did Bruce Bowen either no? Whiteside had TRIPLE DOUBLES with BLOCKS. He anchored the Heat frontline at the basket. He literally changed the game when he came off the bench or started at the 5. Whiteside did get screwed.

Bowen absolutely deserved one. There's more to defense than just blocked shots though. And how good was Whiteside the first half of the season?

Wade n Fade
04-19-2016, 08:01 PM
Bowen absolutely deserved one. There's more to defense than just blocked shots though. And how good was Whiteside the first half of the season?

Not as he is now, but he did have some great moments. Sure, Whiteside can defend the rim really well. His rebounding is fantastic. He had a triple double vs Minny the first half of the season as well.

BallDontLie
04-19-2016, 08:08 PM
Leonard doesn't deserve it this year because he simply just did his job. Does Tony Allen deserve DPOY during his prime? Not necessarily. Did Bruce Bowen either no? Whiteside had TRIPLE DOUBLES with BLOCKS. He anchored the Heat frontline at the basket. He literally changed the game when he came off the bench or started at the 5. Whiteside did get screwed.

what do triple doubles have to with playing defense? Leonard was the best at 'doing his job' plain and simple

Scoots
04-19-2016, 09:06 PM
what do triple doubles have to with playing defense? Leonard was the best at 'doing his job' plain and simple

I think there is plenty to debate ... but Kawhi did have a great year no doubt.

FlashBolt
04-19-2016, 11:30 PM
How did Whiteside get screwed...? Heat fans, stop!

BKLYNpigeon
04-19-2016, 11:51 PM
Drayman the only Elite Defender that can guard all 5 positions.

kdspurman
04-20-2016, 12:17 AM
Drayman the only Elite Defender that can guard all 5 positions.

I asked before but i'll ask again. How often is he matched up with PG's and SG's for the entirety of a game? Like the CP3's/Westbrooks. Or how often does he even match up with the Lebron's or Durant's? Seems like Iggy gets his share as does Thompson, no?

I just don't get that "he can guard all 5 positions" talk because in reality, it's something he does in spurts, cause honestly, that's a tough task for anyone. We aren't talking about him switching on to someone else on a P&R or something, but I mean like for the entirety of a game. He does it in spurts if they go small and other teams go small, but in that case, isn't it often times a 4 for the other team just playing the 5?

I know Draymond is a great defender, but the whole 1-5 talk should definitely be delivered with context

Lakers + Giants
04-20-2016, 12:21 AM
No, LMFAO, whitside wasn't snubbed at all....

He should be honored he got 3rd, there's a huge gap between 2nd and 3rd place tho imo...

BKLYNpigeon
04-20-2016, 12:37 AM
I asked before but i'll ask again. How often is he matched up with PG's and SG's for the entirety of a game? Like the CP3's/Westbrooks. Or how often does he even match up with the Lebron's or Durant's? Seems like Iggy gets his share as does Thompson, no?

I just don't get that "he can guard all 5 positions" talk because in reality, it's something he does in spurts, cause honestly, that's a tough task for anyone. We aren't talking about him switching on to someone else on a P&R or something, but I mean like for the entirety of a game. He does it in spurts if they go small and other teams go small, but in that case, isn't it often times a 4 for the other team just playing the 5?

I know Draymond is a great defender, but the whole 1-5 talk should definitely be delivered with context

Not much because we have Klay who's one of the best 2 guard Defenders. Draymond is much more valuable guarding 4s and 5s. Warriors switch on Defense all the time, so Draymond gets matched up with not of players.

Scoots
04-20-2016, 01:31 AM
I asked before but i'll ask again. How often is he matched up with PG's and SG's for the entirety of a game? Like the CP3's/Westbrooks. Or how often does he even match up with the Lebron's or Durant's? Seems like Iggy gets his share as does Thompson, no?

I just don't get that "he can guard all 5 positions" talk because in reality, it's something he does in spurts, cause honestly, that's a tough task for anyone. We aren't talking about him switching on to someone else on a P&R or something, but I mean like for the entirety of a game. He does it in spurts if they go small and other teams go small, but in that case, isn't it often times a 4 for the other team just playing the 5?

I know Draymond is a great defender, but the whole 1-5 talk should definitely be delivered with context

He never guards anybody for a whole game. The Warriors switch essentially all the time.

One of my favorite stats from last year was that Draymond got more steals on CP3 than any other player and got more blocks on Dirk than any other player. He really can effectively guard anybody ... but he's never really asked to lock down someone.

The Warriors defense works because of Green's flexibility, so the 1-5 thing is important.

valade16
04-20-2016, 10:49 AM
Drayman the only Elite Defender that can guard all 5 positions.

That is in part because there aren't really 5 positions currently. You could count the number of quality volume scoring Center's on one hand, perhaps on one finger currently.

ewing
04-20-2016, 11:45 AM
Leonard doesn't deserve it this year because he simply just did his job. Does Tony Allen deserve DPOY during his prime? Not necessarily. Did Bruce Bowen either no? Whiteside had TRIPLE DOUBLES with BLOCKS. He anchored the Heat frontline at the basket. He literally changed the game when he came off the bench or started at the 5. Whiteside did get screwed.


Yes, Allen and Bowen deserve it

KnicksorBust
04-20-2016, 11:59 AM
He never guards anybody for a whole game. The Warriors switch essentially all the time.

One of my favorite stats from last year was that Draymond got more steals on CP3 than any other player and got more blocks on Dirk than any other player. He really can effectively guard anybody ... but he's never really asked to lock down someone.

The Warriors defense works because of Green's flexibility, so the 1-5 thing is important.

My favorite post in the thread. The Warriors have been an elite defense because in a league that is so predicated on screens and pick and roll they have the versatility to switch in any situation and Green is the most critical player in that system.

That being said I have no problem with Kawhi winning it. He doesn't need to guard centers and power forwards to prove he was the best this year.

DR_1
04-20-2016, 03:19 PM
I would have gone with Green but Leonard is deserving

JJ_JKidd
04-22-2016, 06:40 AM
When you defend the Defensive Player of the Year award, you are truly deserving