PDA

View Full Version : Harden in the record books: most turnovers in a season!



JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2016, 08:40 PM
Fond this on Reddit today:
https://gfycat.com/HotBadGordonsetter

How big a deal is this? Obviously raw stats don't tell the entire story, but this is certainly an issue. Guys like T-Mac and Kobe have played similar roles (play maker and primary scorer creating their own shots) and none have had turnovers like this, despite averaging more shots and/or assists.


Is Houston putting too much responsibility on one guy? Or is Harden simply not taking care of the ball?

More-Than-Most
04-10-2016, 08:50 PM
When it comes to this guy its never a big deal esp around here... Horrid defense :shrug: but he scores.... Most turnovers :shrug: but he can score... Massive head case :shrug: he can score.

warfelg
04-10-2016, 08:52 PM
All of the above? He's always been loose with the ball and there's no other option of offense.

naps
04-10-2016, 09:13 PM
Always felt he is overrated. And no he is not as good a scorer as advertised. He is inefficient and largely depends on his way of buying his trips to the strip.

KnicksorBust
04-10-2016, 09:27 PM
He is inefficient .

:laugh:

You have plenty of ammo if you want to attack his game and you fire off inefficient? Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda...

naps
04-10-2016, 09:46 PM
I know you are gonna bring up ts% now. That accounts for his free throws as far as I know. My point is he just doesnt make enough shots for him to be counted as an efficient scorer. Takes a lot of bad shots and doesnt just make enough of them. And no I have no agenda against Harden. I am actually rooting for them to make the playoffs.

numba1CHANGsta
04-10-2016, 10:29 PM
He just likes to shoot and do nothing else, no defense, no ball handling, no shavers, he's def not someone you build around cuz he's a failure

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 10:43 AM
I know you are gonna bring up ts% now. That accounts for his free throws as far as I know. My point is he just doesnt make enough shots for him to be counted as an efficient scorer. Takes a lot of bad shots and doesnt just make enough of them. And no I have no agenda against Harden. I am actually rooting for them to make the playoffs.

I despise Harden with every bone in my body.

But you are insane if you don't think he is an efficient scorer. The whole point of the game is to score as many points on as few shot attempts as possible. Harden is absolutely elite for a perimeter player in that regard.

ewing
04-11-2016, 11:36 AM
I despise Harden with every bone in my body.

But you are insane if you don't think he is an efficient scorer. The whole point of the game is to score as many points on as few shot attempts as possible. Harden is absolutely elite for a perimeter player in that regard.

Is this some new analytical thing cause i was pretty sure it was to score more then the team you are playing.

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 12:02 PM
I know you are gonna bring up ts% now. That accounts for his free throws as far as I know. My point is he just doesnt make enough shots for him to be counted as an efficient scorer. Takes a lot of bad shots and doesnt just make enough of them. And no I have no agenda against Harden. I am actually rooting for them to make the playoffs.
Even if you ignore free throws, for his career he has an eFG% of 51.7 vs. a position average of 49.5.

A quick back-of-the-napkin calculation has him at 1.03ppp overall for his career, which includes his ridiculous turnover numbers, and like a 115 off rating.

There is no way to look at it to call him inefficient.

ghettosean
04-11-2016, 12:07 PM
I despise Harden with every bone in my body.

But you are insane if you don't think he is an efficient scorer. The whole point of the game is to score as many points on as few shot attempts as possible. Harden is absolutely elite for a perimeter player in that regard.

Is this some new analytical thing cause i was pretty sure it was to score more then the team you are playing.

Man I love your posts... Lol

smith&wesson
04-11-2016, 12:36 PM
Harden is not a winner.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 12:36 PM
Is this some new analytical thing cause i was pretty sure it was to score more then the team you are playing.
Afraid not, it's been true since day1 of the nba. You score more by being more efficient, don't need much intelligence to know that, the league just needed the quant guys to learn exactly where those efficient looks come from the most league wide. Before that, guys like poor ol Hubie Brown were tracking possessions on whatever limited footage they had.

phantasyyy
04-11-2016, 01:02 PM
He is the offense though - with everything starting and pretty much ending with him. If you take a look at their roster everyone else is completely inept at creating their own opportunities. He has to play both PG/SG for them otherwise they'd struggle to score. Other than possbily give Howard more opportunities down low there really isnt any other way for them to generate points. D-mo being injured/out of the line-up for most of the year really robbed them of a true second option.

Other than Harden, Beasely is probably they only one who can score on a consistent basis when given possessions(I know people rag on him but he is actually scoring quite efficiently 13.4pts on 52% since his return from China)

Dee_Edge
04-11-2016, 01:05 PM
Harden is not a winner.
...cause he's not a leader, and is not a two way player.

Hey Beard, quit drinkin' and focus on defense!

ewing
04-11-2016, 01:08 PM
Afraid not, it's been true since day1 of the nba. You score more by being more efficient, don't need much intelligence to know that, the league just needed the quant guys to learn exactly where those efficient looks come from the most league wide. Before that, guys like poor ol Hubie Brown were tracking possessions on whatever limited footage they had.


I still think the point of the game is to score more then the team you are playing against. Scoring efficiently is a key to playing well however, are times where you substitute something like IDK defense for efficiency and increase your chances of winning.

Tony_Starks
04-11-2016, 01:09 PM
Is this some new analytical thing cause i was pretty sure it was to score more then the team you are playing.


Nah man. The goal is score efficiently, score 3's instead of 2s, and build teams based upon analytics and advanced statistics.

That's the blueprint Daryl Morrey provided, and you can't argue with the success Houston has had with it.

Htownballa1622
04-11-2016, 01:10 PM
I'm convinced there's more ppl that think they know basketball than actually know what's going on.

Dee_Edge
04-11-2016, 01:11 PM
Sometimes it's pretty funny watching him dribble off his foot and pass to ghosts.
But fans see the turnovers, we are just as frustrated as his teammates but he is not even serious about being serious. Like Dwight everything is a joke to him....I bet even the turnovers

Htownballa1622
04-11-2016, 01:13 PM
Nah man. The goal is score efficiently, score 3's instead of 2s, and build teams based upon analytics and advanced statistics.

That's the blueprint Daryl Morrey provided, and you can't argue with the success Houston has had with it.

Just because the Rockets haven't executed his ideology the way it's intended doesn't mean it's wrong. Granted it's not so cut and dry like you're implying. Mid range shots are important but not a long 2 with your foot on the line.

Ask the warriors.

ewing
04-11-2016, 01:16 PM
Nah man. The goal is score efficiently, score 3's instead of 2s, and build teams based upon analytics and advanced statistics.

That's the blueprint Daryl Morrey provided, and you can't argue with the success Houston has had with it.


It funny how the 2 figure heads for the "i'm smarter then everyone else movement" have created such unbalanced teams. Houston has no one the can play offense other then Harden to the point where they need to go fishing for a Josh Smith or Micheal Beasley all the time and the Sixers are have 3 potential franchise centers. Last year at the end of the season the Rockets had like 4 guys in the rotation shooting sub 55% from the line.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 01:22 PM
Is this some new analytical thing cause i was pretty sure it was to score more then the team you are playing.

haha, well duh.

However, the more efficient teams win. I was speaking more to an individual level as a scorer

****ing smart ***

Scoots
04-11-2016, 01:22 PM
Harden is not inefficient as a scorer. To say so is to deny reality. Harden's chosen offensive game of creating contact to get to the line where making a basket is secondary has some sure downsides ... low FG% and lots of turnovers are principal among them, but make no mistake he is absolutely elite at playing that game, probably the best ever for a wing player.

The problem is that Harden, like some other MVP candidate players over the years, tends to stagnate the offense which results in some emotional issues for his teammates. That added to his amazing defensive apathy and the team's next biggest star's own issues makes for what looks like a toxic team.

You can't blame Harden for everything that's wrong with the Rockets, but since he's by far the biggest star he gets the biggest chunk of the credit and the blame.

ewing
04-11-2016, 01:24 PM
haha, well duh.

However, the more efficient teams win. I was speaking more to an individual level as a scorer

****ing smart ***


Just saying. The Orlando Magic would have been a more efficient scoring scoring team with JJ Redick on the floor but they were a better team with Keith Bogans cause JJ couldn't defend anyone at that point. Scoring efficiency is important but it isn't a be all and end all

Tony_Starks
04-11-2016, 01:28 PM
It funny how the 2 figure heads for the "i'm smarter then everyone else movement" have created such unbalanced teams. Houston has no one the can play offense other then Harden to the point where they need to go fishing for a Josh Smith or Micheal Beasley all the time and the Sixers are have 3 potential franchise centers. Last year at the end of the season the Rockets had like 4 guys in the rotation shooting sub 55% from the line.

Just shows at the end of the day all the numbers in the world can't account for common sense.

Common sense should've told Hinkey Man that while perpetually tanking may benefit them long term, it could also backfire and create a toxic losing environment nobody wants to be apart of.

Common sense should've also told Morey that although Howard and Harden were the best Center and SG(arguable) on paper, that neither of them were leadership material that you want as the face of your franchise.

Now both of them are learning the hard way, although both are so pompous I doubt they'll ever admit it.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 01:30 PM
Just saying. The Orlando Magic would have been a more efficient scoring scoring team with JJ Redick on the floor but they were a better team with Keith Bogans cause JJ couldn't defend anyone at that point. Scoring efficiency is important but it isn't a be all and end all

well basketball is all about balance, so obviously you don't contend with the #1 offense and a #30 defense.

But, go look back at the top 1-2 offenses in efficiency yearly, and those teams win a ton of games and contend, so yes, it is all about efficiency (on both ends).

Defensively, you want to hold them to the least amount of points per shot attempt. Same idea

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 02:01 PM
Just saying. The Orlando Magic would have been a more efficient scoring scoring team with JJ Redick on the floor but they were a better team with Keith Bogans cause JJ couldn't defend anyone at that point. Scoring efficiency is important but it isn't a be all and end all

It's the 4 factors: shooting, rebounding, turnovers and free throws. Just that applying them to the opponent is as important: fg defense, rebounding, forcing turnovers, and not sending them to the line.

ewing
04-11-2016, 02:14 PM
It's the 4 factors: shooting, rebounding, turnovers and free throws. Just that applying them to the opponent is as important: fg defense, rebounding, forcing turnovers, and not sending them to the line.


you really know how to simplify things

Scoots
04-11-2016, 02:18 PM
It's the 4 factors: shooting, rebounding, turnovers and free throws. Just that applying them to the opponent is as important: fg defense, rebounding, forcing turnovers, and not sending them to the line.

Defensive rebounds and turnovers as individual stats don't really mean much without the context of the team. This thread seems to be waffling back and forth between Harden's numbers and effect as an individual, and the efficiency or ability about his team as a whole.

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 02:19 PM
you really know how to simplify things

That's not me, that's Dean Oliver. I'm just paraphrasing.

nycericanguy
04-11-2016, 02:37 PM
Harden is shooting 43% and 35% from 3... both of those are at or below league average, so in that sense he's not very efficient, but obviously his FT rate and % give him a very high TS%.

Didn't realize he was averaging almost 5 To's per game though, that's crazy high.

naps
04-11-2016, 03:32 PM
Yeah that's my point. An efficient scorer doesnt shoot 43% from the floor. He misses 57%. No matter what advanced formula you use, you cant deny that he misses 57% and that's just not being efficient as scorer, specially when you are the best player on your team.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 03:35 PM
Yeah that's my point. An efficient scorer doesnt shoot 43% from the floor. He misses 57%. No matter what advanced formula you use, you cant deny that he misses 57% and that's just not being efficient as scorer, specially when you are the best player on your team.

and you can't deny that he scores at an elite efficiency clip, despite his FG%. That is how it works. If you score a lot more points than shot attempts, you are doing it right...

he scores 28.8 points per 19.6 shot attempts. That is 1.47 points per shot. That is awesome.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 03:37 PM
Yeah that's my point. An efficient scorer doesnt shoot 43% from the floor. He misses 57%. No matter what advanced formula you use, you cant deny that he misses 57% and that's just not being efficient as scorer, specially when you are the best player on your team.

I hate Harden's game, but if you leave out the free throws you really are missing the point. His FG% is lower because he's trying to get FTs and thus taking worse shots when he doesn't get the call. PPP is a much better measure of efficiency in this case, certainly than TS%.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 03:39 PM
and you can't deny that he scores at an elite efficiency clip, despite his FG%. That is how it works. If you score a lot more points than shot attempts, you are doing it right...

he scores 28.8 points per 19.6 shot attempts. That is 1.47 points per shot. That is awesome.

Points per shot attempts? That's just another way of saying TS%. It's a bad stat.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 03:45 PM
Didn't realize he was averaging almost 5 To's per game though, that's crazy high.

5 TOs per game is high, but it's not crazy based on the amount of time he has the ball and the lack of other ball handlers on the team. That added to the above average pace they play at and the turnover in the roster all make the TO numbers for Harden a little better. I consider that the result of a broken system ... a system that Harden appears to love.

nycericanguy
04-11-2016, 03:45 PM
and you can't deny that he scores at an elite efficiency clip, despite his FG%. That is how it works. If you score a lot more points than shot attempts, you are doing it right...

he scores 28.8 points per 19.6 shot attempts. That is 1.47 points per shot. That is awesome.

never really liked that stat too much, because he also takes 10+ free throws which is 4-5 more possessions. Just because it's not an official FGA doesn't mean he didn't use a possession to score the points.

Harden can shoot 40% and 33% from 3 but he will still be considered "efficient" because of his FT rate & %.

mngopher35
04-11-2016, 03:51 PM
Yeah that's my point. An efficient scorer doesnt shoot 43% from the floor. He misses 57%. No matter what advanced formula you use, you cant deny that he misses 57% and that's just not being efficient as scorer, specially when you are the best player on your team.

I am not sure how advanced you think it is to point out the difficulty/value of 3 pointers but it is not something that should be ignored. His EFG% (not free throws, simply adjusting for the extra value of the 3 pointer and not ignoring it completely) is higher than Westbrook, Anthony Davis, Dirk, Batum, Klove, Lilliard, Kyrie etc. etc. and is above league average.

When you are tied for the 2nd highest amount of 3's taken in the league you will have a lower fg%, it is a bad way to judge efficiency. Add in free throws, like you would when evaluating any other scorer, and he becomes even better. Harden has his flaws but being an inefficient offensive player/scorer is definitely not one of them, especially considering his volume/offensive load.

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 04:00 PM
Edit: nvmd. Gopher said it better.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 04:01 PM
I still think the point of the game is to score more then the team you are playing against. Scoring efficiently is a key to playing well however, are times where you substitute something like IDK defense for efficiency and increase your chances of winning.
Kinda sorta sounds like you don't understand the terminology more than anything. Efficiency is about your play on both ends. Ever hear the term net neutral as it relates to certain players?

Saddletramp
04-11-2016, 04:03 PM
Nah man. The goal is score efficiently, score 3's instead of 2s, and build teams based upon analytics and advanced statistics.

That's the blueprint Daryl Morrey provided, and you can't argue with the success Houston has had with it.

Or with Golden State's.

Man, I know trolls are gonna troll in a thread like this but at least be competent enough not to look you're completely clueless. Sometimes these things work out, sometimes they don't. But laying it on Morey is pretty clueless.

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 04:04 PM
Points per shot attempts? That's just another way of saying TS%. It's a bad stat.

PPS is functionally different than TS%. PPS doesn't count possessions used on free throws, TS does.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 04:05 PM
Nah man. The goal is score efficiently, score 3's instead of 2s, and build teams based upon analytics and advanced statistics.

That's the blueprint Daryl Morrey provided, and you can't argue with the success Houston has had with it.
The goal IS to score efficiently. Would you gladly trade 2 for 3? You really shouldn't speak on things you know nothing of, doubt you know the slightest bit about the rockets fo

ewing
04-11-2016, 04:05 PM
Kinda sorta sounds like you don't understand the terminology more than anything. Efficiency is about your play on both ends. Ever hear the term net neutral as it relates to certain players?.


Sorry, i should have know that from the current conversation

Chronz
04-11-2016, 04:10 PM
PPS is functionally different than TS%. PPS doesn't count possessions used on free throws, TS does.
I think that's what he was getting at

Chronz
04-11-2016, 04:17 PM
Or with Golden State's.

Man, I know trolls are gonna troll in a thread like this but at least be competent enough not to look you're completely clueless. Sometimes these things work out, sometimes they don't. But laying it on Morey is pretty clueless.

It's worse in real life. Was talking hoops at the park the other day and the subject of the Rox came up. People in LA LOATH Harden and Dwight so try to understand Tonys hate right now. The Lakers have been among the most incompetent of late, almost as bad as the Clips so they **** on other franchises whenever they can. Anyways, one of them brought up how Houston missed the boat on the stretch4 era and that they should've concentrated on new world aspects of the game and im like are you kidding me. He's been ahead of the game, No **** Daryl would love that player, doesn't mean he can force teams into giving him those guys.

Tony_Starks
04-11-2016, 04:21 PM
The goal IS to score efficiently. Would you gladly trade 2 for 3? You really shouldn't speak on things you know nothing of, doubt you know the slightest bit about the rockets fo


I know their philosophy. I know Morey was lauded as the new analytic identity of what "smart" basketball management is supposed to look like. I know he's failing miserably. I know your tone is patronizing, yet oddly amusing.

The end.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 04:26 PM
never really liked that stat too much, because he also takes 10+ free throws which is 4-5 more possessions. Just because it's not an official FGA doesn't mean he didn't use a possession to score the points.

Harden can shoot 40% and 33% from 3 but he will still be considered "efficient" because of his FT rate & %.

so? They are FREE throws, why wouldn't you want to take as many as possible, that is smart basketball.

Yes, Harden can shoot poor archaic pure FG and 3 percentage, and still be very efficient.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 04:27 PM
Points per shot attempts? That's just another way of saying TS%. It's a bad stat.

huh?

No, it's not a bad stat. It's literally saying for every shot attempt, he is scoring at a great clip for his position/usage.

ewing
04-11-2016, 04:27 PM
It's worse in real life. Was talking hoops at the park the other day and the subject of the Rox came up. People in LA LOATH Harden and Dwight so try to understand Tonys hate right now. The Lakers have been among the most incompetent of late, almost as bad as the Clips so they **** on other franchises whenever they can. Anyways, one of them brought up how Houston missed the boat on the stretch4 era and that they should've concentrated on new world aspects of the game and im like are you kidding me. He's been ahead of the game, No **** Daryl would love that player, doesn't mean he can force teams into giving him those guys.


I think overall Morley has a done a decent job in Houston. He's taken the team from ahem to slightly above ahem. he's certainly not above reproach and for a guy that is cited with the genius insight that 3 is worth more then 2 he certainly doesn't many guys that can consistently hit a 3.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 04:30 PM
I know their philosophy. I know Morey was lauded as the new analytic identity of what "smart" basketball management is supposed to look like. I know he's failing miserably. I know your tone is patronizing, yet oddly amusing.

The end.

why do you always throw Morey into this? It's a concept both SA and GS employ heavily. Get to the line, 3's are the premium if you are going to shoot outside the paint. Hell even Mr Midrange himself, LMA, has seen a drop in long 2's.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 04:30 PM
Kinda sorta sounds like you don't understand the terminology more than anything. Efficiency is about your play on both ends. Ever hear the term net neutral as it relates to certain players?

You are missing the part where he used the terminology "offensive efficiency" ... or do you use selective words only?

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 04:30 PM
I think overall Morley has a done a decent job in Houston. He taken the team from ahem to slightly above ahem. certainly not above reproach and for a guy that is sighted with the genius insight that 3 is worth more then 2 he certainly doesn't many guys that can consistently hit a 3.

He did a great job early on, when asked to build a contender while employing a fringe playoff team, and not being allowed to just blow it up and rebuild. That is really hard to do..

Tony_Starks
04-11-2016, 04:39 PM
why do you always throw Morey into this? It's a concept both SA and GS employ heavily. Get to the line, 3's are the premium if you are going to shoot outside the paint. Hell even Mr Midrange himself, LMA, has seen a drop in long 2's.

You don't remember all the "is Morey a genius" threads when all this started? Stat guys were constantly using him as the example.

Even now him and Hinkie have hardcore defenders.

Plus they're both fun too make fun of, being that they're pretty Kanye-ish.

ewing
04-11-2016, 04:41 PM
He did a great job early on, when asked to build a contender while employing a fringe playoff team, and not being allowed to just blow it up and rebuild. That is really hard to do..


he been there for 10 years. He has a superstar (which he did go out and get- huge plus for him) but they have never gotten that much better then the fringe playoff team he took over. He's done a decent job, that's about it and for a guy that gets so much credit for emphasizing the 3 and getting to the line he can't seem to find any 3 point shooters or guys capable of getting a rebound and shooting above 60% from the line. Jesus they were playing D12, Clint, Dorsey, and J Smooth last year. anyone that employs 4 guys that can't shoot 50% from the line isn't a genius

Scoots
04-11-2016, 04:43 PM
huh?

No, it's not a bad stat. It's literally saying for every shot attempt, he is scoring at a great clip for his position/usage.

But you are including made FTs but not the possessions he used to get them. Therefore a bad stat.

And now you are adding in usage which is a totally different stat.

Also, it seems you can't tell who is saying he is efficient (me and nycericanguy) and those who are saying he isn't.

ewing
04-11-2016, 04:43 PM
It's worse in real life. Was talking hoops at the park the other day and the subject of the Rox came up. People in LA LOATH Harden and Dwight so try to understand Tonys hate right now. The Lakers have been among the most incompetent of late, almost as bad as the Clips so they **** on other franchises whenever they can. Anyways, one of them brought up how Houston missed the boat on the stretch4 era and that they should've concentrated on new world aspects of the game and im like are you kidding me. He's been ahead of the game, No **** Daryl would love that player, doesn't mean he can force teams into giving him those guys.

that dude was Chandler Parsons- he was a prefect fit on that team

Sly Guy
04-11-2016, 04:47 PM
Always felt he is overrated. And no he is not as good a scorer as advertised. He is inefficient and largely depends on his way of buying his trips to the strip.

I agree. He's been handed the star treatment without earning it. I liked him in OKC, but in Houston, he's looked like an ineffective chucker to me. Add that to the fact he doesn't play any defense at all, and now you add turnovers.....Not a good look for any 'winning' organization. Overrated in every way except for that epic beard.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 05:07 PM
I know their philosophy. I know Morey was lauded as the new analytic identity of what "smart" basketball management is supposed to look like. I know he's failing miserably. I know your tone is patronizing, yet oddly amusing.

The end.

Lol, was? So who exactly replaced him.... Sounds to me like you don't know jack but feel free to pretend and attempt to make this emotional.

the true end.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 05:10 PM
I agree. He's been handed the star treatment without earning it. I liked him in OKC, but in Houston, he's looked like an ineffective chucker to me. Add that to the fact he doesn't play any defense at all, and now you add turnovers.....Not a good look for any 'winning' organization. Overrated in every way except for that epic beard.

Pretty sure he was drawing fouls at the same or superior rate he was in okc. If you liked him then but not now, it's either because you incorrectly gauged his potential or you don't feel his offensive burden outweighs his decline in efficiency on both ends. I would agree with the latter but he's earned his stripes, hes elite for sure but he's unlikable and that beard is awful to me

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 05:17 PM
You don't remember all the "is Morey a genius" threads when all this started? Stat guys were constantly using him as the example.

Even now him and Hinkie have hardcore defenders.

Plus they're both fun too make fun of, being that they're pretty Kanye-ish.

I think Morey was good collecting talent, and maximizing his assets, but he doesn't run an offense.

The Spurs are very advanced stat heavy, they seem to have gotten it right. Toronto as well.

Yes, your last sentence works for me haha

Chronz
04-11-2016, 05:17 PM
You are missing the part where he used the terminology "offensive efficiency" ... or do you use selective words only?
Sorry scoots but you're missing the part where he quoted Hawkeye. I was actually going to mention offense but realized even with playing semantics, hawks didn't go there.
Simply put, if he's focusing solely on offense then he shouldnt cite defense as an enforcing factor, if he's talking about2 way play then he simply misunderstood the terminology as efficiency isn't relegated to one side of the court

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 05:20 PM
But you are including made FTs but not the possessions he used to get them. Therefore a bad stat.

And now you are adding in usage which is a totally different stat.

Also, it seems you can't tell who is saying he is efficient (me and nycericanguy) and those who are saying he isn't.

ah, I didn't know you were going after a specific stat, my b

TS%, and Offensive rating, are much more valuable stats. The more usage a player sees, typically the more his efficiency gets hit in the negative. Which is why Harden's metrics are very good.

Chronz
04-11-2016, 05:21 PM
he been there for 10 years. He has a superstar (which he did go out and get- huge plus for him) but they have never gotten that much better then the fringe playoff team he took over. He's done a decent job, that's about it and for a guy that gets so much credit for emphasizing the 3 and getting to the line he can't seem to find any 3 point shooters or guys capable of getting a rebound and shooting above 60% from the line. Jesus they were playing D12, Clint, Dorsey, and J Smooth last year. anyone that employs 4 guys that can't shoot 50% from the line isn't a genius
10 years[+1 internship season] bro. You really have to understand the depth of his career context to see why he's been an elite gm. I'll explain I detail when i have a key board but it sounds like you're focusing on this past year while ignoring the other 95% of his career. They've gotten tremendously better and the only way you wouldn't know that is if you ignore injuries and front office demands. Very few gm could have done what he did, dude basically rapes every trade

Chronz
04-11-2016, 05:32 PM
that dude was Chandler Parsons- he was a prefect fit on that team
Meh, not as a full time 4, the same struggles the team has when Ariza plays the 4 would still hold true for him.
He did sorta fail in not retaining him but he was doing his guy/agent a solid in releasing him early.
So if that's one of his mistakes it really shows his flexibility.
Even ignoring that Parsons hasn't done **** since he left, Morey geniously drafted him late AND signed him for 4 years on the cheap. When he lost him he replaced him with a superior short time fit and made the WCF. One bad .500 season(as opposed to a good .500 season, here's hoping you're with me on this concept) shouldn't offset that.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 05:46 PM
Sorry scoots but you're missing the part where he quoted Hawkeye. I was actually going to mention offense but realized even with playing semantics, hawks didn't go there.
Simply put, if he's focusing solely on offense then he shouldnt cite defense as an enforcing factor, if he's talking about2 way play then he simply misunderstood the terminology as efficiency isn't relegated to one side of the court

"efficiency" doesn't really mean anything without something to attach it to. There is offensive efficiency independent of the efficiency implied by a net rating.

But I get what you are saying.

Saddletramp
04-11-2016, 05:49 PM
10 years[+1 internship season] bro. You really have to understand the depth of his career context to see why he's been an elite gm. I'll explain I detail when i have a key board but it sounds like you're focusing on this past year while ignoring the other 95% of his career. They've gotten tremendously better and the only way you wouldn't know that is if you ignore injuries and front office demands. Very few gm could have done what he did, dude basically rapes every trade

Yeah, they got nothing for Yao and they shouldn't have gotten anything for TMac but got multiple assets. And of course the Harden deal. And they let Parsons walk when he demanded too much where it would hogtie them for years (and the Mavs are playing better without him). Traded guys that were all going to be cut for a top assist playmaker in Lawson (too bad it was a year too late). Drafted a lot of guys late or acquired guys that weren't even in the NBA that have helped a lot (Parsons, Aaron Brooks, Beverley, Capella, Carl Landry, Scola......).

Injuries aren't his fault. He's made some mistakes, sure, but some of these posters are making it sound like what he's done is a failure because they haven't won a title. That's not (all) on him.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 05:52 PM
ah, I didn't know you were going after a specific stat, my b

TS%, and Offensive rating, are much more valuable stats. The more usage a player sees, typically the more his efficiency gets hit in the negative. Which is why Harden's metrics are very good.

Even Morey (who invented TS%) admits it's a bad stat. Well, maybe "bad" isn't a word he'd use, but he has admitted that it is a limited stat because it doesn't take into account the possessions used to get FT points while it does take into account the possessions used to get other points. I seem to recall it also makes an assumption that the player is a good FT shooter too. It's just a quick and dirty stat that makes it easy for the layman to understand the value of 3s and FTs.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2016, 05:54 PM
Even Morey (who invented TS%) admits it's a bad stat. Well, maybe "bad" isn't a word he'd use, but he has admitted that it is a limited stat because it doesn't take into account the possessions used to get FT points while it does take into account the possessions used to get other points. I seem to recall it also makes an assumption that the player is a good FT shooter too. It's just a quick and dirty stat that makes it easy for the layman to understand the value of 3s and FTs.

I think PPS is the step up from FG%, but obviously that is about as much credit as it deserves...

Saddletramp
04-11-2016, 05:56 PM
Meh, not as a full time 4, the same struggles the team has when Ariza plays the 4 would still hold true for him.
He did sorta fail in not retaining him but he was doing his guy/agent a solid in releasing him early.
So if that's one of his mistakes it really shows his flexibility.
Even ignoring that Parsons hasn't done **** since he left, Morey geniously drafted him late AND signed him for 4 years on the cheap. When he lost him he replaced him with a superior short time fit and made the WCF. One bad .500 season(as opposed to a good .500 season, here's hoping you're with me on this concept) shouldn't offset that.

Just saw this, and yeah, totally spot on. In certain situations, Parsons could be a great stretch four (if healthy). But he wouldn't be a full timer there. There was talk after Bosh said no and Ariza was signed that Morey would keep Parsons and have him be the PF starter. Was kind of laughed at as half the leagues team's starting PFs would abuse him consistently. But there weren't many options right there. And yeah, Morey did Parsons (and his agent) a solid only to have Parsons pressure him quick as soon as he could.


Oh, and Morey turned Asik into a mid-teen first rounder. Time will tell if Dekker pans out but again- injuries.

Scoots
04-11-2016, 06:01 PM
I think PPS is the step up from FG%, but obviously that is about as much credit as it deserves...

I didn't mention PPS, and you are correct.

IndyRealist
04-11-2016, 06:02 PM
Even Morey (who invented TS%) admits it's a bad stat. Well, maybe "bad" isn't a word he'd use, but he has admitted that it is a limited stat because it doesn't take into account the possessions used to get FT points while it does take into account the possessions used to get other points. I seem to recall it also makes an assumption that the player is a good FT shooter too. It's just a quick and dirty stat that makes it easy for the layman to understand the value of 3s and FTs.

Now I'm really confused. TS includes possessions used to obtain free throws.

It's: PTS / (2 x (FGA+(0.44 x FTA)))

counting 2 free throws as 0.88 of a possession, to compensate for 6% of free throws that do not end a possession (I think).

Scoots
04-11-2016, 06:04 PM
Just saw this, and yeah, totally spot on. In certain situations, Parsons could be a great stretch four (if healthy). But he wouldn't be a full timer there. There was talk after Bosh said no and Ariza was signed that Morey would keep Parsons and have him be the PF starter. Was kind of laughed at as half the leagues team's starting PFs would abuse him consistently. But there weren't many options right there. And yeah, Morey did Parsons (and his agent) a solid only to have Parsons pressure him quick as soon as he could.


Oh, and Morey turned Asik into a mid-teen first rounder. Time will tell if Dekker pans out but again- injuries.

Stretch 4s who can contribute on both ends are REALLY hard to find. The Warriors don't really play Draymond as a fulltime big on D, they switch up with the other bigs on the team and occasionally Barnes will play the 4 too.

I like Parsons and Morey probably regrets letting him go, but he can't stay healthy playing the 3, no way he's ready to be playing inside night after night.

Tony_Starks
04-11-2016, 08:31 PM
I think Morey was good collecting talent, and maximizing his assets, but he doesn't run an offense.

The Spurs are very advanced stat heavy, they seem to have gotten it right. Toronto as well.

Yes, your last sentence works for me haha


Lol when you carry yourself as the smartest guy in the room you make yourself an easy target. Morey with all his trolling over the years?

Then Hinkie with his 13 page letter on the way out just comfirms what everyone had said which is that he's a certified __hole.

But I will agree advanced stats have been around for decades.

One of Pat Riley's former players was just saying the other day that Riley was using all that kind of info in preparation for opponents back in the day. Like 90s back in the day. But he had the basketball knowledge to use along with it.

Same with Jerry West in GS.

I think the argument changed when people started debating that moneyball was the way to run franchises, with no experience needed.

Morey seems to be the first name that was mentioned during that debate.

ewing
04-11-2016, 09:37 PM
Meh, not as a full time 4, the same struggles the team has when Ariza plays the 4 would still hold true for him.
He did sorta fail in not retaining him but he was doing his guy/agent a solid in releasing him early.
So if that's one of his mistakes it really shows his flexibility.
Even ignoring that Parsons hasn't done **** since he left, Morey geniously drafted him late AND signed him for 4 years on the cheap. When he lost him he replaced him with a superior short time fit and made the WCF. One bad .500 season(as opposed to a good .500 season, here's hoping you're with me on this concept) shouldn't offset that.

that's why you have a bench. Parsons was an excellent fit next to d12. look i think Morley is a good GM. he has done well in Houston. i don't think he has shown himself to be a total genius and you probably shouldn't ride his dick this hard. That said he is on a short list of guys i think you can trust to run your team. He is still a notch below RC, Donnie Walsh, and Jerry West but 10 years of solid stuartship is impressive. it hasn't been prefect or genius but he's done a good job.

ewing
04-11-2016, 09:57 PM
Lol when you carry yourself as the smartest guy in the room you make yourself an easy target. Morey with all his trolling over the years?

Then Hinkie with his 13 page letter on the way out just comfirms what everyone had said which is that he's a certified __hole.

But I will agree advanced stats have been around for decades.

One of Pat Riley's former players was just saying the other day that Riley was using all that kind of info in preparation for opponents back in the day. Like 90s back in the day. But he had the basketball knowledge to use along with it.

Same with Jerry West in GS.

I think the argument changed when people started debating that moneyball was the way to run franchises, with no experience needed.

Morey seems to be the first name that was mentioned during that debate.



If you spend 5 pages and every SAT word you know explaining something Hubie Brown could sum up in one sentence you are a genius.

IndyRealist
04-12-2016, 08:27 AM
The amount of hatred toward education on this site is astounding.

ewing
04-12-2016, 08:36 AM
The amount of hatred toward education on this site is astounding.


if you can't explain something simply it's b/c you don't know it very well. Morely has shown to be a good GM. hinkie has not. They both think they are smarter then they are and get tangled in there own BS trying to prove it.

IndyRealist
04-12-2016, 09:07 AM
if you can't explain something simply it's b/c you don't know it very well. Morely has shown to be a good GM. hinkie has not. They both think they are smarter then they are and get tangled in there own BS trying to prove it.

No NBA team in this day and age is going to succeed with either a wholely analytical or wholely pre-analytic approach. The successful teams are integrating both. You take every advantage you can get, millions of dollars are on the line.

Where PSD fails is that it's polarized into either/or. You have to be "all stats, all the time" or "stats are stoopid, go watch a game". The reality is that all teams use analytics, and all teams employ coaches. And the level of analytics some teams are using are so far beyond what's available publicly it's crazy. They're building rocket ships and we're still debating whether fire is useful.

And no, some things can't be explained simply. That's the benefit of education, to have a commons base of knowledge to discuss complex ideas without having to go back and explain the basics. I can get about 4 sentences into what I do before hard science starts coming out, then people's eyes glaze over. I can give someone an idea, but without a background understanding they're going to have a hard time debating the merits of it.

ewing
04-12-2016, 09:09 AM
No NBA team in this day and age is going to succeed with either a wholely analytical or wholely pre-analytic approach. The successful teams are integrating both. You take every advantage you can get, millions of dollars are on the line.

Where PSD fails is that it's polarized into either/or. You have to be "all stats, all the time" or "stats are stoopid, go watch a game". The reality is that all teams use analytics, and all teams employ coaches. And the level of analytics some teams are using are so far beyond what's available publicly it's crazy. They're building rocket ships and we're still debating whether fire is useful.

And no, some things can't be explained simply. That's the benefit of education, to have a commons base of knowledge to discuss complex ideas without having to go back and explain the basics. I can get about 4 sentences into what I do before hard science starts coming out, then people's eyes glaze over. I can give someone an idea, but without a background understanding they're going to have a hard time debating the merits of it.


you're probably boring but keep blaming that on other peoples lack of education :)

valade16
04-12-2016, 09:16 AM
It is interesting that the analytics crowd has defended Hinkie's "process" because it avoids being a perennial first round playoff team stuck in limbo, which they claim is the worst position to be in in the NBA since you aren't good enough to win the championship but don't get high enough picks to get players that can increase your standing.

That sounds like Morey's tenure to me. He has been there 10 years, advanced past the 1st round twice and this season is the worst season the Rockets have had under his watch. Now I think Morey has been a good GM, though not the great one many here claim. But it is interesting that people don't use the same logic when discussing Morey that they use when discussing Hinkie.

IndyRealist
04-12-2016, 09:26 AM
you're probably boring but keep blaming that on other peoples lack of education :)

:P

I'm delightful.

ewing
04-12-2016, 09:26 AM
It is interesting that the analytics crowd has defended Hinkie's "process" because it avoids being a perennial first round playoff team stuck in limbo, which they claim is the worst position to be in in the NBA since you aren't good enough to win the championship but don't get high enough picks to get players that can increase your standing.

That sounds like Morey's tenure to me. He has been there 10 years, advanced past the 1st round twice and this season is the worst season the Rockets have had under his watch. Now I think Morey has been a good GM, though not the great one many here claim. But it is interesting that people don't use the same logic when discussing Morey that they use when discussing Hinkie.


In peoples defense Morely did land his superstar. Part of the theory seems to be you will never get the elite player you need if you are in that spot. Morely has that guy he's just still stuck

ewing
04-12-2016, 09:27 AM
:P

I'm delightful.

glad you can take a joke. Boring morning here :)

IndyRealist
04-12-2016, 09:41 AM
It is interesting that the analytics crowd has defended Hinkie's "process" because it avoids being a perennial first round playoff team stuck in limbo, which they claim is the worst position to be in in the NBA since you aren't good enough to win the championship but don't get high enough picks to get players that can increase your standing.

That sounds like Morey's tenure to me. He has been there 10 years, advanced past the 1st round twice and this season is the worst season the Rockets have had under his watch. Now I think Morey has been a good GM, though not the great one many here claim. But it is interesting that people don't use the same logic when discussing Morey that they use when discussing Hinkie.

I, for one, don't. The "treadmill of mediocrity" is simply not true. Teams at the bottom tend to stay at the bottom, by all accounts. What people defend with Morey and Hinkie is accumulating tradeable assets and not tying up salary to maintain flexibility. Hinkie is able to absorb a contract almost every year and get paid in picks for it. With the minimum salary cap, those are basically free picks because other GMs made bad decisions.

Hinkie just never had a base team put together like the Rockets did, who were able to stay in that dreaded treadmill area while still acquiring assets. Carried to fruition, it's possible the Sixers could have cashed in assets for a Chris Paul or Marc Gasol, post a roughly .500 season while still having more picks to come, and look awfully enticing to a free agent.

I think the looming cap increase did Hinkie in. Teams aren't trading stars because everyone is going to have money to add contracts this summer, so they're holding on to what they have and looking for the piece that can get them over the top instead of tearing down and rebuilding, which is whay Hinkie's strategy was relying on.

ewing
04-12-2016, 09:58 AM
I, for one, don't. The "treadmill of mediocrity" is simply not true. Teams at the bottom tend to stay at the bottom, by all accounts. What people defend with Morey and Hinkie is accumulating tradeable assets and not tying up salary to maintain flexibility. Hinkie is able to absorb a contract almost every year and get paid in picks for it. With the minimum salary cap, those are basically free picks because other GMs made bad decisions.

Hinkie just never had a base team put together like the Rockets did, who were able to stay in that dreaded treadmill area while still acquiring assets. Carried to fruition, it's possible the Sixers could have cashed in assets for a Chris Paul or Marc Gasol, post a roughly .500 season while still having more picks to come, and look awfully enticing to a free agent.

I think the looming cap increase did Hinkie in. Teams aren't trading stars because everyone is going to have money to add contracts this summer, so they're holding on to what they have and looking for the piece that can get them over the top instead of tearing down and rebuilding, which is whay Hinkie's strategy was relying on.


eventually you have swing at something that isn't a meatball. You don't have to swing for the fences but you can't just keep the bat on your shoulder even if investing nothing in the present brings more potnetial future assets. Maybe you're right and if its wasn't for the cap increase Hinkie would have had a better chance of getting his meatball. I'm not sure but i still feel think he would have had his best chance if he showed a little concern for the present. IMO Hinkie approach was unbalanced and thats what lead to his downfall. He is right in thinking that many GM's have burned themselves by not taking the long view but that doesn't mean you need to be 180 degrees of that

latinofire21
04-12-2016, 10:02 AM
I find it funny how bad he takes care of the ball. Many regard him as the top SG in the league but I just don't see it. No defense, turnover machine, and if it wasn't for the refs giving him all those foul calls he wouldn't be a huge scorer. I don't see how many people think building around a guy like him can help you win a championship. I am still waiting for mightybossone to break out his calculator and give us some formula as to why Harden is so bad this season.

If you divide his turnovers by the average temperature in the arena vs the temperature outside the arena you will see the climate change messed with his ability to stay on balance therefore I believe the arena officials should have a better climate acclimation process for their stars. Simply stated he isn't being supported!
#Advanced Stats Weather Guru!

Vinylman
04-12-2016, 11:18 AM
I, for one, don't. The "treadmill of mediocrity" is simply not true. Teams at the bottom tend to stay at the bottom, by all accounts. What people defend with Morey and Hinkie is accumulating tradeable assets and not tying up salary to maintain flexibility. Hinkie is able to absorb a contract almost every year and get paid in picks for it. With the minimum salary cap, those are basically free picks because other GMs made bad decisions.

Hinkie just never had a base team put together like the Rockets did, who were able to stay in that dreaded treadmill area while still acquiring assets. Carried to fruition, it's possible the Sixers could have cashed in assets for a Chris Paul or Marc Gasol, post a roughly .500 season while still having more picks to come, and look awfully enticing to a free agent.

I think the looming cap increase did Hinkie in. Teams aren't trading stars because everyone is going to have money to add contracts this summer, so they're holding on to what they have and looking for the piece that can get them over the top instead of tearing down and rebuilding, which is whay Hinkie's strategy was relying on.


BINGO!!!! We have a winner... I have been saying this since the tv deal was signed.... go look at the money teams are spending this year... no way that happens unless the cap is going up massively the next two years...

It will all be back to normal in about 4 years when all the truly ****** contracts become apparent. The amnesty provision that will inevitably come with the next CBA will help some but not fix the problem that has happened since the beginning of time: GM's overpaying marginal players

yibnuhi
04-12-2016, 11:32 AM
All of the above? He's always been loose with the ball and there's no other option of offense.http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/17.gif http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/7.gif
http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/8.gif

Scoots
04-12-2016, 12:33 PM
BINGO!!!! We have a winner... I have been saying this since the tv deal was signed.... go look at the money teams are spending this year... no way that happens unless the cap is going up massively the next two years...

It will all be back to normal in about 4 years when all the truly ****** contracts become apparent. The amnesty provision that will inevitably come with the next CBA will help some but not fix the problem that has happened since the beginning of time: GM's overpaying marginal players

I think the cap going up took away some of Hinkie's leverage, but his biggest failings were managing the public perception better and actually getting the best player out of the drafts. Hinkie could have drafted Giannis, CJ McCollum, Gordon or LaVine, and the one that may have sealed his fate is not taking Porzingas. I'm not saying his drafts were bad at the time or that anyone would have necessarily done better, but time has passed and those names are being talked about every night on sports center for good things while Embiid, Noel, and Oak are in the news for maybe someday playing, MCW was traded away, and the team was accused of covering up Jrue's injuries.

I understood the process and found it truly interesting, but Hinkie did himself no favors with some of the moves he made in the pursuit of leverage and assets. The cap going up lost him some leverage, but he already had enough assets ... what he needed was progress and a better public image.

Vinylman
04-12-2016, 01:11 PM
I think the cap going up took away some of Hinkie's leverage, but his biggest failings were managing the public perception better and actually getting the best player out of the drafts. Hinkie could have drafted Giannis, CJ McCollum, Gordon or LaVine, and the one that may have sealed his fate is not taking Porzingas. I'm not saying his drafts were bad at the time or that anyone would have necessarily done better, but time has passed and those names are being talked about every night on sports center for good things while Embiid, Noel, and Oak are in the news for maybe someday playing, MCW was traded away, and the team was accused of covering up Jrue's injuries.

I understood the process and found it truly interesting, but Hinkie did himself no favors with some of the moves he made in the pursuit of leverage and assets. The cap going up lost him some leverage, but he already had enough assets ... what he needed was progress and a better public image.

it is easy to play Monday morning QB on those picks... especially when you look at that ****** 2013 class...

the other two are meh... Gordon is nothing special and I would much rather draft embiid ... Lavine could end up ok but is he really that much better than Payton or Saric at this point?

Again, Hinkie got unlucky because of the cap going up and continually getting ****ed by draft position. Most of his moves have been solid

ewing
04-12-2016, 01:26 PM
I think the cap going up took away some of Hinkie's leverage, but his biggest failings were managing the public perception better and actually getting the best player out of the drafts. Hinkie could have drafted Giannis, CJ McCollum, Gordon or LaVine, and the one that may have sealed his fate is not taking Porzingas. I'm not saying his drafts were bad at the time or that anyone would have necessarily done better, but time has passed and those names are being talked about every night on sports center for good things while Embiid, Noel, and Oak are in the news for maybe someday playing, MCW was traded away, and the team was accused of covering up Jrue's injuries.

I understood the process and found it truly interesting, but Hinkie did himself no favors with some of the moves he made in the pursuit of leverage and assets. The cap going up lost him some leverage, but he already had enough assets ... what he needed was progress and a better public image.



I don't if it would have made a difference but KP never worked out or meet with the Sixers. He wanted nothing to do with them. I think Hinkie's rep with agents/players and shamelessness about tanking is a big reason why.

valade16
04-12-2016, 01:45 PM
I don't if it would have made a difference but KP never worked out or meet with the Sixers. He wanted nothing to do with them. I think Hinkie's rep with agents/players and shamelessness about tanking is a big reason why.

Exactly. You can't exonerate Hinkie for not drafting KP because he wanted nothing to do with the 76ers when Hinkie and his strategy was exactly why he wanted nothing to do with the 76ers.

BallDontLie
04-12-2016, 01:52 PM
Okafor didnt workout for the sixers either, that doesnt mean anything. lets not pretend Porz is in some golden situation in NY either lol

ewing
04-12-2016, 01:58 PM
Okafor didnt workout for the sixers either, that doesnt mean anything. lets not pretend Porz is in some golden situation in NY either lol


they got to see him for a full year at Duke

Jeffy25
04-12-2016, 02:03 PM
Third season out of four that he will lead the league in turnovers.

Dude has 4.6 Turnovers per game, 4.3 per 36 minutes (he plays a lot of minutes), 5.9 turnovers per 100 possessions.

32.4% usage

Westbrook has 342 turnovers this year, which is tied for 13th most in a season all time

I mean, the guy had 10 in this game alone
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602060HOU.html

BallDontLie
04-12-2016, 02:29 PM
they got to see him for a full year at Duke

if i remember correctly Hinkie was the only GM who went to scout Porz personally

ewing
04-12-2016, 02:33 PM
if i remember correctly Hinkie was the only GM who went to scout Porz personally

and KP still wouldn't give him a meeting. anyway, the point was that everyone got to see a lot of Oka.

Scoots
04-12-2016, 02:48 PM
it is easy to play Monday morning QB on those picks... especially when you look at that ****** 2013 class...

the other two are meh... Gordon is nothing special and I would much rather draft embiid ... Lavine could end up ok but is he really that much better than Payton or Saric at this point?

Again, Hinkie got unlucky because of the cap going up and continually getting ****ed by draft position. Most of his moves have been solid

I thought I already answered this but I'll try again.

The point is that we are talking about perception changing over time and most of the public are not smart or engaged enough to realize that the picks were all easily defensible at the time ... the public sees highlights every night and think "why not my team? It's Hinkie's fault!" and I think that got to Harris.

Scoots
04-12-2016, 02:50 PM
I don't if it would have made a difference but KP never worked out or meet with the Sixers. He wanted nothing to do with them. I think Hinkie's rep with agents/players and shamelessness about tanking is a big reason why.

The point isn't taking KP or not it's that New York is a bad team but KP (who Hinkie could have taken) has transformed the public's view of the Knicks team. Harris can see that and think "why not me".

Scoots
04-12-2016, 02:52 PM
Third season out of four that he will lead the league in turnovers.

Dude has 4.6 Turnovers per game, 4.3 per 36 minutes (he plays a lot of minutes), 5.9 turnovers per 100 possessions.

32.4% usage

Westbrook has 342 turnovers this year, which is tied for 13th most in a season all time

I mean, the guy had 10 in this game alone
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602060HOU.html

Had 12 in this game http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505270GSW.html

Scoots
04-12-2016, 02:56 PM
So ... 7 pages in:

Hinkie was ...

Bad at PR
Unlucky with the lottery
Unlucky with the cap climbing
Unlucky with the draft
Unlucky with player behavior off the court
Unlucky with injuries
Unlucky with public perception and acceptance of the Process
Unlucky with the deception with Jrue being discovered
Unlucky with Colangelo being brought in to "help" him
Unlucky with his resignation letter getting out

Maybe all he needed was a 4 leaf clover?

BallDontLie
04-12-2016, 03:14 PM
and KP still wouldn't give him a meeting. anyway, the point was that everyone got to see a lot of Oka.

but our GM still saw Porz in person, its not like he was complete unknown. KP giving a meeting or not means absolutely nothing, if Hinkie wanted him he would have took em.

ewing
04-12-2016, 03:23 PM
but our GM still saw Porz in person, its not like he was complete unknown. KP giving a meeting or not means absolutely nothing, if Hinkie wanted him he would have took em.


How many game do you think Hinkie was KP play? How much do you think he knows about the comp he was playing against? How many people does he know and trust that got to see a lot of KP that he could discuss it with? How would he know KP would come if he drafted him? Sorry but its not anywhere near a stretch to think that KP not giving a workout or interview to Philly might keep philly from drafting KP. Maybe they wouldn't have taken him anyway but i don't think he takes him without a workout or meeting

IndyRealist
04-12-2016, 03:41 PM
Gotta agree, it's not like KP was at Duke, you could just pull up tape and know he was going against top tier players.

Still, Hinkie wasn't ruthless enough. If he wanted KP, he should have drafted him and pulled a Rubio.

BallDontLie
04-12-2016, 04:21 PM
How many game do you think Hinkie was KP play? How much do you think he knows about the comp he was playing against? How many people does he know and trust that got to see a lot of KP that he could discuss it with? How would he know KP would come if he drafted him? Sorry but its not anywhere near a stretch to think that KP not giving a workout or interview to Philly might keep philly from drafting KP. Maybe they wouldn't have taken him anyway but i don't think he takes him without a workout or meeting

do you not understand how scouting and watching game tape works? Its not like teams were at every Duke game or KY game lol.

ewing
04-12-2016, 04:22 PM
do you not understand how scouting and watching game tape works? Its not like teams were at every Duke game or KY game lol.


explain to me

BallDontLie
04-13-2016, 09:04 AM
nah

dfdyin
04-13-2016, 11:32 AM
All of the above? He's always been loose with the ball and there's no other option of offense.http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/19.gif http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/7.gif
http://financeseeyou.com/red/images/8.gif