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STRIKERC
04-06-2016, 08:16 PM
According to reports
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/4/6/11381682/sam-hinkie-resigns-philadelphia-76ers-gm-president-jerry-colangelo-nba

STRIKERC
04-06-2016, 08:20 PM
F Jerry Colangelo.
I loved the process.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 08:24 PM
What the actual ****? He deserved this offseason to get through and see what happened.

More-Than-Most
04-06-2016, 08:27 PM
Yup way to **** things up really... This off season was key and he deserved the chance to do things... Stupid ****ing move man.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 08:31 PM
On a serious note:

I don't think this is a sign that the process and the tanking failed. This isn't a sign that ownership got impatient.

I think this is a sign that there was a difference of opinions behind the scenes in terms of what comes next. There was conflict about signing vs developing. I now fear that we will trade guys we shouldn't trade, overpay guys we shouldn't overpay, and put faith in a non-star to do star things and end up back on the 9-8-7 treadmill again.

IndyRealist
04-06-2016, 08:31 PM
This is Adam Silver at work.

PurpleJesus
04-06-2016, 08:31 PM
theyve tanked for so long, and all they have is a solid player in Noel to show for it...why did he deserve more time?

MMC1710
04-06-2016, 08:37 PM
And now Bryan Coangelo is being looked at as GM. Nepotism is the backbone of American business

warfelg
04-06-2016, 08:39 PM
theyve tanked for so long, and all they have is a solid player in Noel to show for it...why did he deserve more time?

This is ignorance at it's best. Because Okafor, Embiid, Saric, Covington, Grant are worth nothing? Having a top 4 pick, LAL pick, Sac swap, OKC pick, Miami pick, 2018/19 Sac pick is nothing?

PurpleJesus
04-06-2016, 08:42 PM
This is ignorance at it's best. Because Okafor, Embiid, Saric, Covington, Grant are worth nothing? Having a top 4 pick, LAL pick, Sac swap, OKC pick, Miami pick, 2018/19 Sac pick is nothing?

Embiid ever going to play?

You think Hincke had them on the right track? that would be ignorance.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 09:04 PM
Embiid ever going to play?

You think Hincke had them on the right track? that would be ignorance.

Actually yes. We had no long term assets when he got here, no developing players, not 2nds for a while, 2 of our next 3 1sts were gone and we were running the NBA purgatory treadmill.

Hinkie's tenure might be remembered for failures, but we're set up with assets and the ability to create a long term contender.

McAllen Tx
04-06-2016, 09:08 PM
Saw this coming once they hired Colangelo.

League got fed up with their process. Other owners losing $ cause of them. Not losing $ but rather not making as much $ they can possibly make cause of Philly.

With revenue sharing Philly is like the guy at a party where everyone brings expensive drugs and he only brings a half pack of cigarettes. He can only do it for so long before they tell him to GTFO.

ewing
04-06-2016, 09:15 PM
i'm sure his phone is ringing off the hook with offers.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 09:16 PM
Hinkie did a very Hinkie thing writing a 13 page letter, in which he wrote:

"There has been much criticism of our approach. There will be more. A competitive league like the NBA necessitates a zig while our competitors comfortably zag. We often chose not to defend ourselves against much of the criticism, largely in an effort to stay true to the ideal of having the longest view in the room.
"... Given all the changes to our organization, I no longer have the confidence that I can make good decisions on behalf of investors in the Sixers -- you. So I should step down. And I have."

naps
04-06-2016, 09:24 PM
Good riddance. I cant believe some fans are defending him. I guess they love being the worst team in league history only to draft a center every year that can't step on the floor. That franchise has become a laughing stock which shouldn't be the case at all because Philly is a big sports town.

mngopher35
04-06-2016, 09:24 PM
Could you (or someone who's read it all) give us some of they key points or things he said?

It'll be interesting to see how things play out this summer, it seems like since he has been clear in his plan he kinda got screwed outta the opportunity to finish it off. I know ppl will say "but they've sucked for 3 years" or whatever but when that is what he preaches from the start seems odd to be disappointed in it. Was he just used a scapegoat to tank and be the face so getting rid of him seems like a fresh start?

Alayla
04-06-2016, 09:26 PM
This is awful news on every level i hope Hinkie gets another offer somewhere he can make waves.

McAllen Tx
04-06-2016, 09:31 PM
Actually yes. We had no long term assets when he got here, no developing players, not 2nds for a while, 2 of our next 3 1sts were gone and we were running the NBA purgatory treadmill.

Hinkie's tenure might be remembered for failures, but we're set up with assets and the ability to create a long term contender.

True he did a great job at acquiring picks but he's done terrible with the picks. You guys can defend his picks all you want but he drafted 2 Cs 2 years in a row while they were injured.

I would trust Colangelo 100x more to know what to do with the assets that Hinkie acquired then Hinkie himself.

Me personally think he stepped down cause him and Colangelo have different plans for Phillys assets. And Colangelo is gonna have the final say.

5ass
04-06-2016, 09:31 PM
Called it the season he got hired. I said he's fit for collecting assets but not build a team. Just want to say I was the first to criticize "the process". All this time sixers fans thinking "he's just a hater". Good luck to Hinkie, I think he'll be better off away from basketball.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 09:35 PM
True he did a great job at acquiring picks but he's done terrible with the picks. You guys can defend his picks all you want but he drafted 2 Cs 2 years in a row while they were injured.

I would trust Colangelo 100x more to know what to do with the assets that Hinkie acquired then Hinkie himself.

Me personally think he stepped down cause him and Colangelo have different plans for Phillys assets. And Colangelo is gonna have the final say.

There had to be a rift there that couldn't be bridged.

Hinkie is going to do to some team interested in the analytics part and assist a team in finding gems of players to fill out a roster. Thinking like assisting in OKC to help build more around Westbrook and Durant, or Dallas.

Kush McDaniels
04-06-2016, 09:44 PM
hey, look at me! I lose games intentionally, I'm so smart!

I'll take the Celtics rebuild over wtf the Sixers have done. I'll take the Raptors being a high-win, lose early in the playoffs team over wtf Philly has been doing the last few years. It's pathetic.

If I remember anything about Colangelo in Toronto is he'll go for some big swings, but he'll make some **** moves/ones that wont work out. Decent GM.

Alayla
04-06-2016, 09:47 PM
Called it the season he got hired. I said he's fit for collecting assets but not build a team. Just want to say I was the first to criticize "the process". All this time sixers fans thinking "he's just a hater". Good luck to Hinkie, I think he'll be better off away from basketball.

It's not remotely fair to say that when he was never given time to even attempt to build a team.

McAllen Tx
04-06-2016, 09:48 PM
There had to be a rift there that couldn't be bridged.

Hinkie is going to do to some team interested in the analytics part and assist a team in finding gems of players to fill out a roster. Thinking like assisting in OKC to help build more around Westbrook and Durant, or Dallas.
I dont see OKC at all, at least not a Presti hire. If either KD or Westbrook leave w/o OKC getting anything Presti is out if there. Especially if they have Hinkie at the scorers table ready to check in.

5ass
04-06-2016, 09:53 PM
It's not remotely fair to say that when he was never given time to even attempt to build a team.

True, at that time it was premature to say that, but I had a feeling from the get go. I just felt this severe tanking (which I knew would carry on for years) would cost him his job. As the years went on, I felt that he was only proving me right.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 09:54 PM
It's not remotely fair to say that when he was never given time to even attempt to build a team.

Exactly. This is incomplete business for Hinkie.

Alayla
04-06-2016, 09:58 PM
True, at that time it was premature to say that, but I had a feeling from the get go. I just felt this severe tanking (which I knew would carry on for years) would cost him his job. As the years went on, I felt that he was only proving me right.


Not exactly a leap in judgement considering that's exactly what he said would do and that it would be hard for awhile until he was in a position to get a star this off-season was going to be pivotal with or without Hinkie.
Its just a shame the rug got pulled just as it was time to start phase 2

5ass
04-06-2016, 10:01 PM
Exactly. This is incomplete business for Hinkie.

What? you mean its not fair to say that today? I thought that was clear to sixers fans the moment they hired Colengelo, but I guess you spend so many years defending the guy...

Pretty sure three years is enough to at least add a few wins to your record. Instead of regressing every year.

5ass
04-06-2016, 10:03 PM
Not exactly a leap in judgement considering that's exactly what he said would do and that it would be hard for awhile until he was in a position to get a star this off-season was going to be pivotal with or without Hinkie.
Its just a shame the rug got pulled just as it was time to start phase 2


You mean to tell me you also thought he'd eventually lose his job?

What makes you think he's onboard or qualified to run "phase 2"?

Alayla
04-06-2016, 10:11 PM
What? you mean its not fair to say that today? I thought that was clear to sixers fans the moment they hired Colengelo, but I guess you spend so many years defending the guy...

Pretty sure three years is enough to at least add a few wins to your record. Instead of regressing every year.

As we told you many times over the expectation was not that we would turn it around quickly it was going to be this way from the beginning I would argee with you if from the word go a 7 year timetable before we would start to contend was not on the table.
This timing of this offseason "although admittedly a bit behind schedule because of Embiid's issue healing" Was going to be a huge part of where the team ends up long term from the moment we drafted Saric.

Regardless what's in the past is in the past all we can do at this point is pray Bryan Colangelo doesn't do something stupid to compromise all these assets
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25544979/report-jerry-colangelo-to-hire-son-bryan-colangelo-as-76ers-general-manager

JasonJohnHorn
04-06-2016, 10:13 PM
I got an excerpt from his resignation letter:

My apologies to Sixers fans.

I though that if I tanked for five straight seasons, I could just draft the next Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka, or the next Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green (even though none of them were top 3 picks), and instead, I just drafted the next Greg Oden three years in a row.

My bad.

Here's to hoping somebody else can fix this mess.

Alayla
04-06-2016, 10:16 PM
You mean to tell me you also thought he'd eventually lose his job?

What makes you think he's onboard or qualified to run "phase 2"?

What makes you think hes not? That's such a weighted and meaningless question in what world would someone that good at collecting assets not be any good at building a team?
Nothing has shown that whatsoever and it's sad your letting a "gut feeling" act as a factual statement against Hinkie.

Now if he was given time to build and screwed it up then i would argee with you and my outlook would change but he never got that chance so its unfair for any comments about his team building skill to be set in stone.

5ass
04-06-2016, 10:18 PM
As we told you many times over the expectation was not that we would turn it around quickly it was going to be this way from the beginning I would argee with you if from the word go a 7 year timetable before we would start to contend was not on the table.
This timing of this offseason "although admittedly a bit behind schedule because of Embiid's issue healing" Was going to be a huge part of where the team ends up long term from the moment we drafted Saric.

Regardless what's in the past is in the past all we can do at this point is pray Bryan Colangelo doesn't do something stupid to compromise all these assets
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25544979/report-jerry-colangelo-to-hire-son-bryan-colangelo-as-76ers-general-manager

Whatever... I'm not going to sit here all night and go back to what I said and what was said by sixers fans at the time just so I could say "I told you so". I feel the sixers fans who have read and remember my posts from the beginning (and I know some do, because they still bring it up from time to time) will recognize how right I was.

Alayla
04-06-2016, 10:18 PM
I got an excerpt from his resignation letter:

My apologies to Sixers fans.

I though that if I tanked for five straight seasons, I could just draft the next Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka, or the next Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green (even though none of them were top 3 picks), and instead, I just drafted the next Greg Oden three years in a row.

My bad.

Here's to hoping somebody else can fix this mess.

LOL! Please tell me your trying to be funny because that might be the most silly thing i've heard yet on this subject.

Also Durant was a top 3 pick.
Most people felt that Curry SHOULD have been and was underdrafted.
Lets also ignore that those are exceptions and outliers and most stars are drafted as such.

5ass
04-06-2016, 10:19 PM
What makes you think hes not? That's such a weighted and meaningless question in what world would someone that good at collecting assets not be any good at building a team?
Nothing has shown that whatsoever and it's sad your letting a "gut feeling" act as a factual statement against Hinkie.

Now if he was given time to build and screwed it up then i would argee with you and my outlook would change but he never got that chance so its unfair for any comments about his team building skill to be set in stone.

Because he had ruined his image among GMs and agents, and its not exactly just a gut feeling. It's that type of foresight that I think Hinkie lakcked. How are you expecting to deal with them to get FAs and make trades? FFS why do you think they hired Colangelo?

Alayla
04-06-2016, 10:23 PM
Because he had ruined his image among GMs and agents. How are you expecting to deal with them to get FAs and make trades? FFS why do you think they hired Colangelo?

I was uncomfortable the moment Colangelo was hired honestly i knew he in particular would never become the GM per say but it always made me uncomfortable about the future.
That being said had he just done what he was brought in to do and help Hinkie grease the rails a bit and stay mostly hands off.
Hinkie would have been able to prove people wrong in my honest opinion but that's something we will never get to see one way or another so for now lets argee to disargee and move on.

McAllen Tx
04-06-2016, 10:36 PM
What makes you think hes not? That's such a weighted and meaningless question in what world would someone that good at collecting assets not be any good at building a team?
Nothing has shown that whatsoever and it's sad your letting a "gut feeling" act as a factual statement against Hinkie.

Now if he was given time to build and screwed it up then i would argee with you and my outlook would change but he never got that chance so its unfair for any comments about his team building skill to be set in stone.
Are you serious? Nothing has shown?

You dont see anything wrong with drafting Cs 3 years in a row with top 7 picks, two of them injured at the time of the draft?

CityofTreez
04-06-2016, 10:37 PM
A great Tank hero down!
Him stepping down makes the tank job even more legendary.

Alayla
04-06-2016, 10:41 PM
Are you serious? Nothing has shown?

You dont see anything wrong with drafting Cs 3 years in a row with top 7 picks, two of them injured at the time of the draft?

He was collecting assets at that stage not building. See my posts from last page.

Kush McDaniels
04-06-2016, 10:47 PM
lol this guy is gonna defend Hinkie to the death.

All he did was tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, draft ****** player after ****** player. He has a lot of unrealized assets that amount to nothing. All you have is a lot of alienated fans. If Hinkie had any more time, it would equate to more losses. Players would rather sign with Toronto at this point.

D-Leethal
04-06-2016, 10:55 PM
I'm happy to see the old Phoenix Suns gang back together. Now fire Brett Brown and let JC, BC and Mike D get after it and take the league by storm. Dead ***.

D-Leethal
04-06-2016, 10:56 PM
Cheers to trying to get better every day, every year, that's how all organizations should be managed.

D-Leethal
04-06-2016, 10:58 PM
Losing as bad as possible so you can enter a lottery, close your eyes and pray is not a strategy. It's hoping for a miracle. You are only going to get so many chances to do that and they whiffed and kept pressing the reset button.

europagnpilgrim
04-06-2016, 11:02 PM
Actually yes. We had no long term assets when he got here, no developing players, not 2nds for a while, 2 of our next 3 1sts were gone and we were running the NBA purgatory treadmill.

Hinkie's tenure might be remembered for failures, but we're set up with assets and the ability to create a long term contender.

You don't develop a contender by drafting the same style big men who don't compliment each other, had he done this in 97 and 98 when they had The Answer then those athletic bigs make complete sense, but you build a contender in the draft by drafting the best frontcourt big then complimenting that with a best backcourt player the following draft and then build around those but he kept doing the same draft over and over it seems, its like when Orlando had Shaq and drafted Webber but flipped him for Penny, that's how you build a team into a contender from scratch

then having all those assets mean jack if you cant pull a Ainge/Morey and flip a KG/Allen/Harden for those assets, and based on him not being able to land that backup guard from ATL for those assets at the trade deadline pretty much sank his ship, especially with a proven Colangelo waiting in the wings when they decided to bring him into the fold

Sixers should never be this awful for this long of a stretch especially with the history of legendary players that have been on this roster, but it is what it be

McAllen Tx
04-06-2016, 11:04 PM
He was collecting assets at that stage not building. See my posts from last page.
One hasnt played a game in 2 seasons, another can barely play 10 games in a row before having to sit out 2 games, and the other is out for the season due to injury. Will end up missing 25 games. And I dont think any are over 22 years old and already having foot and knee problems.

You talking about them assets?

Dade County
04-06-2016, 11:09 PM
On a serious note:

I don't think this is a sign that the process and the tanking failed. This isn't a sign that ownership got impatient.

I think this is a sign that there was a difference of opinions behind the scenes in terms of what comes next. There was conflict about signing vs developing. I now fear that we will trade guys we shouldn't trade, overpay guys we shouldn't overpay, and put faith in a non-star to do star things and end up back on the 9-8-7 treadmill again.


Damn, I hope not...

Sam hand his plan in motion, I wanted to see what would happen over the next 2 seasons. But I am sure they will over pay some players to try to get them to maybe 35wins next season.

6ers can have 3 picks in the 10, this upcoming draft and could of maybe package of a deal for a sub star player like Jimmy Butler (if they wanted to go that way).

I am sure the 6ers will be better next year, but that doesn't mean they couldn't of been much better if they stay the course.

Scoots
04-06-2016, 11:11 PM
I think the Sixers fans who were so adamant that the Colangelo hiring meant nothing should step up and say they were wrong.

I don't know that this is bad for the process either ... Colangelo is a good talent evaluator and a good negotiator. The Sixers fans were thinking the tanking was going to end this season anyway so just think of it as moving to the next phase of the process.

beasted86
04-06-2016, 11:21 PM
On a serious note:

I don't think this is a sign that the process and the tanking failed. This isn't a sign that ownership got impatient.

I think this is a sign that there was a difference of opinions behind the scenes in terms of what comes next. There was conflict about signing vs developing. I now fear that we will trade guys we shouldn't trade, overpay guys we shouldn't overpay, and put faith in a non-star to do star things and end up back on the 9-8-7 treadmill again.

My whole issue with this "plan" of Hinkie has always been the notion that what you say couldn't happen anyway.

For example, the Wizards cleared house, tanked, ended up with a first overall pick, drafted a can't miss perennial all-star top 4 PG and followed it up with a stud SG. Flipped expiring contracts and assets for a very solid Center. Filled the rest of the roster with decent vets.

Where are they after this "tank and build" effort? 10th seed. Where was their peak over the last 3 years post rebuild? 5th seed.

You see, the problem is there are too many people who buy into the idea that it's just that simple. Draft a couple top talents and you'll be contending for years. It's better than being a mediocre team with aging vets, right? Except I'm sure that David Kahn was thinking the same thing every June how the team had a chance to build something great. Like its a given the lottery will work in your favor or that you won't get bad luck with draft busts or injuries.

If you put all your eggs in the basket of the draft that's not being a real GM to me, that's just being your average gambler.

Back on discussion of Hinkie, outside of the 1st round of the draft, the Sixers haven't really picked up too many solid players. Covington and that's about it. Hollis Thompson maybe. But I don't think either of those guys are long term glue guys anyway. Sorry to gloat about my HEAT but they got Whiteside for nothing, Tyler Johnson as a walk on and Josh Richardson in the mid 2nd round who looks like a prototypical 3/D player every team wants for their rotation.

I feel like Hinkie was given a fair shot and then when management showed signs of bringing in more minds to progress this rebuild faster he got power hungry and felt he needed all the credit for correcting the ship. He wanted to be that guy to pound his chest like "you all were laughing when we were winning 10 games every season! Laugh now, losers!" So he's like I'd rather just walk if I can't have all the say and get all the credit.

beasted86
04-06-2016, 11:32 PM
One hasnt played a game in 2 seasons, another can barely play 10 games in a row before having to sit out 2 games, and the other is out for the season due to injury. Will end up missing 25 games. And I dont think any are over 22 years old and already having foot and knee problems.

You talking about them assets?

Damn, when you spell it out this bluntly it seems a lot worse than it actually is.

They also have a Euro player who may or may not come over soon.

warfelg
04-06-2016, 11:34 PM
Back on discussion of Hinkie, outside of the 1st round of the draft, the Sixers haven't really picked up too many solid players. Covington and that's about it. Hollis Thompson maybe. But I don't think either of those guys are long term glue guys anyway. Sorry to gloat about my HEAT but they got Whiteside for nothing, Tyler Johnson as a walk on and Josh Richardson in the mid 2nd round who looks like a prototypical 3/D player every team wants for their rotation.


We also got Holmes, Grant, and KJ McDaniels (yes I know he's been traded) in the second. We got Staus, Landry, 2 pick swaps and 2018 top 10/2019 unprotected from the kinds for nothing. Grant is growing into a very good to elite weak side blocker and second unit 4 man. We turned the flaming pile of doo doo that is MCW (yes I was high on him at once) into a potential lotto pick. We turned a top 55 protected pick into the OKC first. Similar for the Miami 1st. We got plenty of 2nd round deals and something from nothing trades.

Dade County
04-06-2016, 11:40 PM
A great Tank hero down!
Him stepping down makes the tank job even more legendary.

:laugh2:
Awesome post

Dade County
04-06-2016, 11:45 PM
I feel like Hinkie was given a fair shot and then when management showed signs of bringing in more minds to progress this rebuild faster he got power hungry and felt he needed all the credit for correcting the ship. He wanted to be that guy to pound his chest like "you all were laughing when we were winning 10 games every season! Laugh now, losers!" So he's like I'd rather just walk if I can't have all the say and get all the credit.

So you are saying that you believe Hinkie plan was going to work?

beasted86
04-06-2016, 11:49 PM
We also got Holmes, Grant, and KJ McDaniels (yes I know he's been traded) in the second. We got Staus, Landry, 2 pick swaps and 2018 top 10/2019 unprotected from the kinds for nothing. Grant is growing into a very good to elite weak side blocker and second unit 4 man. We turned the flaming pile of doo doo that is MCW (yes I was high on him at once) into a potential lotto pick. We turned a top 55 protected pick into the OKC first. Similar for the Miami 1st. We got plenty of 2nd round deals and something from nothing trades.
I'm not talking about "assets" I'm talking about players. Covington, Thompson and maybe Grant are decent players, but are you really ready to extend these guys? None off them are free agents right now, but if these guys would cost you $5M+ to keep this summer would you really keep them?

Because that's the difference I feel with Johnson and the HEAT. They feel this guys getting better and a long term piece even after just a year and a half. I'm not sure the Sixers are as high on those guys despite having them longer. They seem somewhat replaceable guys that you don't need to spend that much on. You'd rather just get a cheaper guy and spend money elsewhere. At least that's how I'd look at them if I were GM

beasted86
04-06-2016, 11:53 PM
So you are saying that you believe Hinkie plan was going to work?
No, I'm saying that's what Hinkie was thinking.

I'm sure he has ultimate confidence in his own tank plan as a can't-lose strategy. He thinks eventually it will turn around. Maybe not today, maybe not 2020, but eventually it will turn around.

JasonJohnHorn
04-06-2016, 11:58 PM
LOL! Please tell me your trying to be funny because that might be the most silly thing i've heard yet on this subject.

Also Durant was a top 3 pick.
Most people felt that Curry SHOULD have been and was underdrafted.
Lets also ignore that those are exceptions and outliers and most stars are drafted as such.

Yes. I am indeed joking. I mean the comment on the top-3 picks to apply to GSW's players, but I see how my syntax made that unclear. My apologies.


And though many people now say Curry was underdrafted.... obviously, not a lot of people were saying it at the time. Though I do remember people scratching their heads at Johnny Flynn. Keep in mind, NY thought they had a shot at drafting Curry at their spot (though I believe they did try to move up to pick him). So....


That said... with the injuries his three big-man picks have had... the 'next Greg Oden' tag may be tragically applicable to all three.

Wade n Fade
04-07-2016, 12:29 AM
Darryl Morrey could be out of a job too. They are possibly the most mainstream analytical "GMs" in the league, right?

Scoots
04-07-2016, 12:40 AM
Darryl Morrey could be out of a job too. They are possibly the most mainstream analytical "GMs" in the league, right?

Myers in Oakland too ... but he's quieter about it.

ManningToTyree
04-07-2016, 12:48 AM
Long live the tank

xnick5757
04-07-2016, 02:08 AM
Weird move.

I'm not sure that tanking is the best strategy to win (draft randomness being a major factor), but 97% of the league fails to win a championship every year.

On the bright side, less competition for Ainge in the trade market!

rhino17
04-07-2016, 02:47 AM
Darryl Morrey could be out of a job too. They are possibly the most mainstream analytical "GMs" in the league, right?

there is a 0% chance of that happening, as big of a disaster as the rockets have been, the rockets have never had a losing record under Morey (they have had exactly ONE losing record since 2001-02).

I honestly expect Hinkie to be back with the Rockets next season

I don't know wtf Philly was thinking. They knew the plan when they hired the guy and then got impatient and hired a rehash mediocre guy to replace him.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 02:59 AM
I think the Sixers fans who were so adamant that the Colangelo hiring meant nothing should step up and say they were wrong.

I don't know that this is bad for the process either ... Colangelo is a good talent evaluator and a good negotiator. The Sixers fans were thinking the tanking was going to end this season anyway so just think of it as moving to the next phase of the process.

I was definitely one of those people but only because I was hopeful that was the case. Jerry will never be hands on with this team and I don't trust his son. Really upset about this.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:01 AM
there is a 0% chance of that happening, as big of a disaster as the rockets have been, the rockets have never had a losing record under Morey (they have had exactly ONE losing record since 2001-02).

I honestly expect Hinkie to be back with the Rockets next season

I don't know wtf Philly was thinking. They knew the plan when they hired the guy and then got impatient and hired a rehash mediocre guy to replace him.

All of this I'm truthfully depressed about this news.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:07 AM
Yes. I am indeed joking. I mean the comment on the top-3 picks to apply to GSW's players, but I see how my syntax made that unclear. My apologies.


And though many people now say Curry was underdrafted.... obviously, not a lot of people were saying it at the time. Though I do remember people scratching their heads at Johnny Flynn. Keep in mind, NY thought they had a shot at drafting Curry at their spot (though I believe they did try to move up to pick him). So....


That said... with the injuries his three big-man picks have had... the 'next Greg Oden' tag may be tragically applicable to all three.

I certainly was I was floored how far he fell because personally I would have taken him no worse than 4 even at the time I was saying he had all the tools to become the best shooter of all time and was the player I expected to become the best in the draft.
Most of the people I know where saying the same thing but maybe not people on this board idk. I really didn't hang around here that far back.
I will at least admit I never forsaw him playing PG I feel SG would have been a more natural place for him but far be it from me to comment when its working.

As for this second bit
Okafor had one minor injury to end the season hes no Greg Oden.
Noel was hurt when drafted for the first year and certainly misses some games here and there but hes playing about as much as you would expect the average player to play in terms of health since the big injury healed.
Embiid may legitimately end up headed in the direction in fact its more likely than not so I will concede that one.

IKnowHoops
04-07-2016, 03:18 AM
What? you mean its not fair to say that today? I thought that was clear to sixers fans the moment they hired Colengelo, but I guess you spend so many years defending the guy...

Pretty sure three years is enough to at least add a few wins to your record. Instead of regressing every year.

Realistically, teams like the 76ers, Thunder, Wolves, Bucks...teams that have to build a team and can't attract free agents...those teams need a 6-7 year window of drafting to field a competitive team. 3 years isn't even enough time for the first guy you drafted to reach near his full potential. He should at least get to see his first draft pick reach his prime year.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:19 AM
Whatever... I'm not going to sit here all night and go back to what I said and what was said by sixers fans at the time just so I could say "I told you so". I feel the sixers fans who have read and remember my posts from the beginning (and I know some do, because they still bring it up from time to time) will recognize how right I was.

By no means where you proven right just stop.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:21 AM
Realistically, teams like the 76ers, Thunder, Wolves, Bucks...teams that have to build a team and can't attract free agents...those teams need a 6-7 year window of drafting to field a competitive team. 3 years isn't even enough time for the first guy you drafted to reach near his full potential. He should at least get to see his first draft pick reach his prime year.

Right or at the very least give him enough time to see the year 2 of his biggest assets "Embiid and Saric" Step foot on the court.
Its shame how this played out because even if this team becomes a contender and players Hinkie brought in are a part of it or part of a trade aquireing a star people will always remember him poorly.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:25 AM
One hasnt played a game in 2 seasons, another can barely play 10 games in a row before having to sit out 2 games, and the other is out for the season due to injury. Will end up missing 25 games. And I dont think any are over 22 years old and already having foot and knee problems.

You talking about them assets?

Them Saric LA Pick Own back from a magic trade Kings pick OKC MIA Kings swaps a slew of 2nds Covington Grant are people honestly going to sit here and deny that hes done a great job collecting major assets?

Alayla
04-07-2016, 03:28 AM
You don't develop a contender by drafting the same style big men who don't compliment each other, had he done this in 97 and 98 when they had The Answer then those athletic bigs make complete sense, but you build a contender in the draft by drafting the best frontcourt big then complimenting that with a best backcourt player the following draft and then build around those but he kept doing the same draft over and over it seems, its like when Orlando had Shaq and drafted Webber but flipped him for Penny, that's how you build a team into a contender from scratch

then having all those assets mean jack if you cant pull a Ainge/Morey and flip a KG/Allen/Harden for those assets, and based on him not being able to land that backup guard from ATL for those assets at the trade deadline pretty much sank his ship, especially with a proven Colangelo waiting in the wings when they decided to bring him into the fold

Sixers should never be this awful for this long of a stretch especially with the history of legendary players that have been on this roster, but it is what it be

That is EXACTLY what he had in mind.
As for the Dennis situation he trying to get him but he sure as hell was not going to overpay.

Quinnsanity
04-07-2016, 04:12 AM
I have a million problems with this whole situation. I was a believer in the process, I agreed with pretty much all of Hinkie's moves, but one thing bothers me more than anything else here.

Bryan Colangelo getting the GM job in Philly is such blatant ****ing nepotism. It's sickening. Here's a guy who has had one NBA job without his daddy holding his hand, the Toronto gig, and screwed it up royally. No one believed this guy deserved another GM job, and if they did he would've gotten it by now. There are so many qualified GM candidates out there, but the NBA forced Philly to hire Jerry (another guy who desperately wanted back in the league but no other team would touch) and forced them to listen to him, so of course they get stuck with his ne'er do well son. It's goddamn ridiculous. But hey, the league likes the Colangelo family. They play nice. So they get to step in and take all of the credit when all of Hinkie's draft picks come home to roost, and if they **** those picks up? It was all Hinkie's fault for ruining the organizational culture. ****ing ridiculous.

If you had to fire Hinkie, fine, I disagree with it but I at least understand the logic. What I can't ****ing stand is the NBA turning control of this team over to one of its cronies and pretending like this was an organizational change of heart for Philly. ********. Ownership knew what they were getting into with Hinkie. I fail to see why allowing such blatant nepotism is any better for the league than tanking. I'd argue it's much worse.

Aust
04-07-2016, 04:42 AM
So with Hinkie gone does "the process" leave with him?

PhillyFaninLA
04-07-2016, 06:03 AM
WTF was he thinking writing that letter. When I first heard this I assumed it was a you can resign or be fired situation but isn't he pretty much completely unhirable even at a lower level job in the NBA now.

Its a win for the Sixers, we get a former NBA executive of the year and guy helped build 2 teams, one got worse after he left and one is sustaining themselves.

Bryan Colengelo is proven.

PhillyFaninLA
04-07-2016, 06:06 AM
Good riddance. I cant believe some fans are defending him. I guess they love being the worst team in league history only to draft a center every year that can't step on the floor. That franchise has become a laughing stock which shouldn't be the case at all because Philly is a big sports town.

What Hinkie did do well for us needed to be done, we needed to get rid our contracts and start over...we needed that and he put us in a position to do it, he just didn't know what to do after he tore everything down. That is why he got defended, its why I did it. Truth is, this was the last year (I said this on this site) that I was giving him to show me that he can start to build a team. Bryan Colengelo did some real good things for Phoenix and Toronto, and he walks into a situation that Hinkie created, not the losing, but the possible 4 first round picks (3 likely), a ton of cap space, some nice pieces (the bigs and Saric), and some nice bench players that had to play as starters.

We need a tare down like Hinkie gave us, we just needed the rebuild as well and Hinkie did give us the tools to turn over to someone that knows how to build.

PhillyFaninLA
04-07-2016, 06:09 AM
delete

PhillyFaninLA
04-07-2016, 06:17 AM
So with Hinkie gone does "the process" leave with him?

No, it just takes the next step. The team needed to be torn down and rebuilt, Hinkie tore it down but didn't know what to do next. For what we needed he did a great job, he just can't do what is next.

McAllen Tx
04-07-2016, 06:57 AM
Them Saric LA Pick Own back from a magic trade Kings pick OKC MIA Kings swaps a slew of 2nds Covington Grant are people honestly going to sit here and deny that hes done a great job collecting major assets?

Did you not read my prior posts? I said he did a great job acquiring assets. Im not gonna take that from him but I also said to date he has done a ****** job with them assets.

Ive never been one who has complained about Hinkies process. I know when you're stuck in the middle you have to do go to the extreme and get out of the middle. He did a great job.

What I have said in the past is that you only get a 2-3 year period to tank and then play with what you got. Phillys time us up and next year they have to use what they got to try and put a winning team on the court. Its other teams turn to tank.

I dont think Hinkie has a good plan to turn things around this summer w/o being stuck in the middle again. Its obvious he needs more time but it isnt fare to other teams who also need to tear the whole thing down and start from scratch if Philly is still gonna be getting high draft picks cause dont attempt to put a winning team on the court. He hasnt proven he can make a trade to make that makes Philly better on the court. He just acquires assets. And its his own fault by continuing to draft injured players that also play the same position.

And with this new $ kicking in and revenue sharing other owners dont want to be sharing with a team that isnt bringing in what they're taking out.

McAllen Tx
04-07-2016, 06:58 AM
.

McAllen Tx
04-07-2016, 07:01 AM
No, it just takes the next step. The team needed to be torn down and rebuilt, Hinkie tore it down but didn't know what to do next. For what we needed he did a great job, he just can't do what is next.
This is how I see it

beasted86
04-07-2016, 07:08 AM
Right or at the very least give him enough time to see the year 2 of his biggest assets "Embiid and Saric" Step foot on the court.
Its shame how this played out because even if this team becomes a contender and players Hinkie brought in are a part of it or part of a trade aquireing a star people will always remember him poorly.

He didn't get fired. He quit because he wanted all the say so and credit (if the team eventually had success).

warfelg
04-07-2016, 07:31 AM
I feel like I've never read a more truer tweet:

B. Miller ‏@BlaiseInKC 8m8 minutes ago
The Sixers will probably be mediocre next season & people will act like the ship has been righted. Then they'll stay mediocre for 10 years.

McAllen Tx
04-07-2016, 07:49 AM
I feel like I've never read a more truer tweet:

And whos fault will it be?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 07:51 AM
And whos fault will it be?

Jerry/Bryan Colangelo.

With all this stuff in place to succeed, if we end up mediocre it's squarely on the guy that failed to get the most out of everything you were given.

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 07:54 AM
It's like Hinkie brainwashed Philly fans into believing his tank-and-pray-til'-the-next-LeBron strategy is the only way they could ever contend.

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 07:56 AM
The Colangelo's built a freakin' powerhouse in PHX without tanking. Philly tanked and sold the farm for enough assets, time to use those assets, use that cap space and start making moves to build a winner. What a thought?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 08:02 AM
The Colangelo's built a freakin' powerhouse in PHX without tanking. Philly tanked and sold the farm for enough assets, time to use those assets, use that cap space and start making moves to build a winner. What a thought?

A power house? How many championship trophies are in PHX from the Colangelo era?

Time to use everything? No it wasn't.

beasted86
04-07-2016, 08:04 AM
I mean, have people read how obnoxious he sounds in excerpts from his letter to the team?

And they still believed that kook knew what he was doing?

Hinkie was destined to be another David Kahn or drag this thing out 10 years before it amounted to any sustainable success. He's surely not getting another GM position anytime soon with that stupid letter.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 08:22 AM
Far too long to copy and paste but here is Hinkies 13 page letter to the owners:
http://espn.go.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf

Some highlights NOT printed in other articles:

To do this requires you to divorce process from outcome. You can be right for the wrong reasons. In
our business, you’re often lionized for it. You can be wrong for the right reasons. This may well prove to be
Joel Embiid. There is signal everywhere that Joel is unique, from the practice gyms in Lawrence, Kansas to
Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania to Doha, Qatar where he does something awe inspiring far too regularly. We
remain hopeful (and optimistic) about his long-term playing career, but we don’t yet know exactly how it
will turn out. The decision to draft Joel third, though, still looks to me to be the correct one in hindsight
given the underlying reasoning. But to call something that could be wrong (“failed draft pick”) right (“good
decision”) makes all of our heads hurt, mine included.


For the Sixers, this has meant efforts like tracking every shot in every gym where we shoot, making
predictions in writing about what we think will happen with a player or a team, and generally asking more
questions about the game than some are comfortable to have said aloud.


So often a new management regime looks at an organization and decides that the primary goal is to
professionalize the operation. For you, I hope that doesn’t happen next. As I described to you in our first
ever board meeting, we were fundamentally aiming for something different—disruption. We should
concentrate our efforts in a few key areas in ways others had proven unwilling. We should attempt to gain a
competitive advantage that had a chance to be lasting, hopefully one unforeseen enough by our competition
to leapfrog them from a seemingly disadvantaged position. A goal that lofty is anything but certain. And it
sure doesn’t come from those that are content to color within the lines


In May of 2013 when I spoke with several of you—and even when we first met in the summer of
2012—the situation was clear. Your crops had been eaten. A team that clawed its way to a disappointing 34
wins in 2012-13 had a few handfuls of those wins walking out the door (Dorell Wright, Nick Young,
Damien Wilkins, Royal Ivey) and a player that drove a bit more who had just undergone a surgery and was
expected to be out for the season (Jason Richardson). That left the club with expected wins in the low 20s
before replacing anyone. The young players on rookie-scale deals numbered two: Evan Turner & Arnett
Moultrie. Two future first round picks were gone as was the recent youth pipeline of Nik Vučević & Moe
Harkless. Gulp.
8
Outsiders agreed. ESPN regularly ranks the forward-looking three years for each team in their
Future Power Rankings. They take into account the team’s current roster and future potential of those
players as about half the rating, then include future draft picks, cap position, coaching, management, etc.
The Sixers near-term future ranked 24th in a 30-team league.
In the press conference announcing my arrival at the Sixers, I said:
• Our challenge was not for the faint of heart. It wasn’t.
• Our challenge was big enough to humble me to think about the enormity of it. It did.
We would have to get so very much right.

^^^ This point, I want to take a moment and point out that myself and other Sixers fans have said without Hinkie ever saying this, but many posters here kept on trying to tell us that we were wrong.


Specifically, we set out to maximize the odds of acquiring star players using all three available
methods of acquiring players (draft, free agency, and trade).
1. Draft: invest in the deepest pool of star players—young players via the NBA Draft.
2. Free Agency: maintain financial flexibility to assume contract liabilities of other teams to acquire
picks and prospects and move quickly toward special opportunities in signings/trade.
3. Trade: gather attractive, improving players to (best case) develop to win games for the Sixers, or
(worst case) trade for better players or players likely to improve at a faster rate.
We determined to play a faster style that recognizes the importance of speed in tomorrow’s NBA
and one that quickly integrates young players. We set out to improve our shot selection toward high
efficiency basketball. We also wanted to build a defensive identity that—in time—could thwart tomorrow’s
high-efficiency offenses. Lastly, we needed to build a world-class training center, develop an ever-evolving
player development program, and change the organization’s culture to one of innovation and a constant
search for competitive edge.
These goals were not to fit some preferred style of play, but instead were aiming for where future
champions would be crowned.


This approach, like many that create value, isn’t popular, particularly locally. But it’s also nothing
new, just the same typeface bolded. It requires deep player evaluations around the globe, is helped by a
network of international relationships, and most of all, patience. The venerable San Antonio Spurs don’t
have three rights-held players playing internationally like we now do, they have thirteen. Most of their
names are hard for many fans to pronounce. Ginobili used to be, too.
The NBA began this season with 100 international players from 37 countries on opening night
rosters, comprising over 20% of the league. This is no set of wallflowers either, with four of the last thirteen
Finals MVPs in this group. I pine for the days of the Long Beach Summer League at the Pyramid—I now
spend as much time in China as Los Angeles.


In the upcoming May draft lottery, we have what will likely be the best ever odds to get the #1
overall pick (nearly 30%), a roughly 50/50 chance at a top-2 pick (the highest ever), and a roughly 50/50
chance at two top-5 picks, which would be the best lottery night haul ever. That same bounce of a ping pong
ball (almost a flip of a coin) will determine if we have three first round picks this year (unusual) or four
(unprecedented). That's this year. Or this quarter, if you will.


It’s clear now that I won’t see the harvest of the seeds we planted. That’s OK. Life’s like that. Many
of my NBA friends cautioned me against the kind of seed sowing that felt appropriate given the
circumstances for exactly this reason. But this particular situation made it all the more necessary, though.
Part of the reason to reject fear and plow on was exactly because fear had been the dominant motivator of
the actions of too many for too long.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 08:24 AM
I mean, have people read how obnoxious he sounds in excerpts from his letter to the team?

And they still believed that kook knew what he was doing?

Hinkie was destined to be another David Kahn or drag this thing out 10 years before it amounted to any sustainable success. He's surely not getting another GM position anytime soon with that stupid letter.

Read the full letter. Because it backs everything us fans have been saying without us ever hearing this stuff said in the media by Hinkie.

McAllen Tx
04-07-2016, 09:40 AM
It's like Hinkie brainwashed Philly fans into believing his tank-and-pray-til'-the-next-LeBron strategy is the only way they could ever contend.

Ive said this before (partly kidding and partly serious) that Hinkies plan was to tank till LBJs 9 year old son enters the draft.

ewing
04-07-2016, 09:40 AM
what an insufferable prick

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 09:46 AM
I've maintained for the longest that Hinkie would be fired before this monstrosity of a plan ever reached its grand climax. Guess I was wrong, he quit.

He leaves quite a legacy. Hopefully they can reach 70 losses for him to show their appreciation for one of the greatest displays of intentional losing ever.

BKLYNpigeon
04-07-2016, 09:49 AM
I didn't think Hinkie did that bad of a Job. Sixers was just more obvious with the tanking then other teams. Sixers win totals were about the same as many other teams.

I don't think he lost any trade he made in tenure.

if Embed or Saric become an allstar, i think we would at Hinkie all different.

valade16
04-07-2016, 09:49 AM
Far too long to copy and paste but here is Hinkies 13 page letter to the owners:
http://espn.go.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf

Some highlights NOT printed in other articles:

^^^ This point, I want to take a moment and point out that myself and other Sixers fans have said without Hinkie ever saying this, but many posters here kept on trying to tell us that we were wrong.

I get everything he's saying, but he seems really pretentious. Trying to make everyone believe he was some visionary because he thought of the idea "let's suck really bad for a long time".

He's not a visionary so much as the guy who finds all the cheats in a video game and tries to exploit them in multi-player mode.

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 10:00 AM
...and to think Hinkie and Darryl Morey, the tanker and the analytic genius, have been so vigorously defended. They were supposed to represent the new modern business way that teams should be run. They were the guys that were suppose to prove you don't need basketball experience to run a team.

The result? One unceremoniously exits and the other on the verge of having a team that went to the conference final miss the playoffs entirely. With the same roster, no less.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 10:02 AM
I didn't think Hinkie did that bad of a Job. Sixers was just more obvious with the tanking then other teams. Sixers win totals were about the same as many other teams.

I don't think he lost any trade he made in tenure.

if Embed or Saric become an allstar, i think we would at Hinkie all different.

I think the Colangelo's will end up with all the credit no matter what. It won't be "Hinkie put the Sixers in position to have 4 picks in 2016" it will be "LOOK WHO COLANGELO PICKED!!! I BET HINKIE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THIS BUST!!"

ewing
04-07-2016, 10:06 AM
pretentious? come on who writes a resignation under 3,000 words

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 10:13 AM
Actually yes. We had no long term assets when he got here, no developing players, not 2nds for a while, 2 of our next 3 1sts were gone and we were running the NBA purgatory treadmill.

Hinkie's tenure might be remembered for failures, but we're set up with assets and the ability to create a long term contender.

Unfortunately, minus the ignorance, Hinkie reminds me a bit of what Kahn did. Not to say he is nearly as bad as Kahn, but I remember being excited that Kahn cut all the dead weight on the roster, infused it with youth, picks, and young talent. Problem is, none of it developed, because he was inept at hiring the right people or making the right decisions, something Hinkie showed as well.

I know Philly fans think they were in a good position going forward, but are you really? Having youth, picks, and assets only matters if you capitalize on it. How long should Philly fans/owner wait?

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 10:14 AM
Philly fans, you have been defending Hinkie for 3 years. Do you really feel you need to anymore? He is out of the process....gone....

Time to move on, and see what happens next.

valade16
04-07-2016, 10:15 AM
I think the Colangelo's will end up with all the credit no matter what. It won't be "Hinkie put the Sixers in position to have 4 picks in 2016" it will be "LOOK WHO COLANGELO PICKED!!! I BET HINKIE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THIS BUST!!"

I actually think it will be the other way around. No matter how good Colangelo or the 76ers do everyone will say "it's because Hinkie got them all the assets" and if they do bad people will say they are doing bad because Colangelo came in and messed up Hinkie's plan.

xnick5757
04-07-2016, 10:20 AM
this seems relevant to me


Bill Oram ✔ ‎@billoram
Kobe on leaving Lakers at this all-time low point: "There aren’t different degrees losing. You either win a championship or you're ****."

the goal is to win a championship (obviously). competing for an 8 seed doesn't get you there (but again, who knows if tanking will).

Philly was in a bad spot after that Bynum trade... Hinkie certainly gained many assets over the years.


And @ the people talking about all the centers, who else were they supposed to draft?

2015 they had the 3rd pick and wanted Russell (#2)
2014 Embiid clearly had the highest upside out of any of the rest after wiggins/parker
2013 They got Noel and a 1st for Jrue

the ping pong balls didn't fall the right way but there's really no way you can say Noel/Embiid/Okafor weren't BP A at the time

ewing
04-07-2016, 10:20 AM
he did get them to a spot with a ton of picks and financial flexibility still I hope Colangelo gets all the credit b/c Hinkie tried to use a cheat code and is a prick.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 10:23 AM
Unfortunately, minus the ignorance, Hinkie reminds me a bit of what Kahn did. Not to say he is nearly as bad as Kahn, but I remember being excited that Kahn cut all the dead weight on the roster, infused it with youth, picks, and young talent. Problem is, none of it developed, because he was inept at hiring the right people or making the right decisions, something Hinkie showed as well.

I know Philly fans think they were in a good position going forward, but are you really? Having youth, picks, and assets only matters if you capitalize on it. How long should Philly fans/owner wait?

Well here's the issue:
Hinkie never got the chance to capitalize on what he did. Literally everyone pointed the last two years to the summer of 2016 being the "make or break" year for him.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 10:25 AM
its horrible that our owners tried to **** Hinkie. You can all ***** and moan about the losing but hinkie was specifically hired to blow this team up and rebuild it from the ground. Go look at the piece of **** roster he inherited and where all of those players are now. Go look at what assets he inherited and tell me what he collected in 3 years. I dont blame him for refusing to work with baby Colangelo either, he hasnt proven anything to walk in here any and take over what was already started after being out of the league the last 3 years. Its kind of hard to mess up what hinkie put in place but I still have little confidence in the Colangelos. Cant wait to be back to 6-8 seeds and first round exits! But hey at least we won some more games, right?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 10:26 AM
I actually think it will be the other way around. No matter how good Colangelo or the 76ers do everyone will say "it's because Hinkie got them all the assets" and if they do bad people will say they are doing bad because Colangelo came in and messed up Hinkie's plan.

Lowry, DeRozen, Val, Ross were all Colangelo moves in Toronto but Ujiri is getting all the credit right now.

If we're winning in 5 years, the story won't be "Hinkie got them all the assets", it will be "Colangelo drafted (Simmons/Ingram), signed so-and-so, and traded all this dumb roster guys for player X".

It happens all the time. The guy who set the table is forgotten, the guy who makes the meal is remembered.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 10:30 AM
The Colangelo's built a freakin' powerhouse in PHX without tanking. Philly tanked and sold the farm for enough assets, time to use those assets, use that cap space and start making moves to build a winner. What a thought?

how many finals appearances?

mike_noodles
04-07-2016, 10:33 AM
I don't know whether to be happy for the 6ers or scared for them. Colangelo could go any with it. He has alot of assets and alot of money and a penchant for swinging for the fences.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 10:35 AM
...and to think Hinkie and Darryl Morey, the tanker and the analytic genius, have been so vigorously defended. They were supposed to represent the new modern business way that teams should be run. They were the guys that were suppose to prove you don't need basketball experience to run a team.

The result? One unceremoniously exits and the other on the verge of having a team that went to the conference final miss the playoffs entirely. With the same roster, no less.

he was at first, reeling from the Morey school of worshippers. But has he been over the last 1-1.5 years? Meh

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 10:36 AM
Well here's the issue:
Hinkie never got the chance to capitalize on what he did. Literally everyone pointed the last two years to the summer of 2016 being the "make or break" year for him.

But we heard this year was his make or break prior.

My point is, when is enough? At some point, something good needs to show up. That hasn't happened. At all.

xnick5757
04-07-2016, 10:40 AM
But we heard this year was his make or break prior.

My point is, when is enough? At some point, something good needs to show up. That hasn't happened. At all.

what about the other 28 teams that don't win every year?

Heediot
04-07-2016, 10:40 AM
Dario Saric might be a good player. He likes to put it on the floor, which is a lot easier in the nba vs. fiba rules. I've seen the guy in the euroleague and I think offensively he'll have a place in the league. He is a tweener so defensively he might have problems here with the more quick/athletic and stronger forwards.

I would of gave Hinkle one last year. His biggest gamble was Embiid, and he lost that gamble since he didn't buy enough time to see the fruits of the pick.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 10:41 AM
what about the other 28 teams that don't win every year?

The Sixers haven't even competed for 3 years now. What do they have to show for it? Nothing on their current roster looks to be a future cornerstone, and their picks are just that....picks.

Like I said earlier, Kahn gave my Wolves a TON of picks, got rid of the bloated contracts, brought in a ton of young players, and what did we have to show for it when he was done? Nothing, but a completely jacked up roster in need of a total rebuild yet again.

Some guys know how to create opportunities, but have no clue how to capitalize on them.

valade16
04-07-2016, 10:49 AM
what about the other 28 teams that don't win every year?

A very absolutist view. Do you believe this season was as satisfying for you as the 01 season when AI led the 76ers to the Finals?

If not winning a title is all the same, you should have felt the exact same about both seasons correct?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 10:56 AM
The Sixers haven't even competed for 3 years now. What do they have to show for it? Nothing on their current roster looks to be a future cornerstone, and their picks are just that....picks.

Like I said earlier, Kahn gave my Wolves a TON of picks, got rid of the bloated contracts, brought in a ton of young players, and what did we have to show for it when he was done? Nothing, but a completely jacked up roster in need of a total rebuild yet again.

Some guys know how to create opportunities, but have no clue how to capitalize on them.

I said it before and I'll say it again:
Kahn got a chance to capitalize and didn't do a good job.

Hinkie didn't. Most the things he gained in trades that he could capitalize on haven't had a chance to prove him good/bad. Saric, LAL pick, OKC pick, Miami pick, Sac Swaps (16/17), Sac Pick (18 top 10 protected, 19 unprotected). One of his picks has yet to see the court. Two of them have less than two years of playing. I think second round picks having success and UDFAs having success like Covington, Grant, McDaniels, Holmes, McConnell prove that Hinkie does have some eye for talent.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 11:06 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Kahn got a chance to capitalize and didn't do a good job.

Hinkie didn't. Most the things he gained in trades that he could capitalize on haven't had a chance to prove him good/bad. Saric, LAL pick, OKC pick, Miami pick, Sac Swaps (16/17), Sac Pick (18 top 10 protected, 19 unprotected). One of his picks has yet to see the court. Two of them have less than two years of playing. I think second round picks having success and UDFAs having success like Covington, Grant, McDaniels, Holmes, McConnell prove that Hinkie does have some eye for talent.

I am aware of his movies, I tended to follow the Sixers moves to see how it ended up.

I didn't mean to compare him straight up to Kahn, sorry. What I meant was, how long do you give the guy? He has had his team in the gutter for years now. What is the realistic win total for next year? 20 at best, assuming everything goes great?

All those picks don't mean a ton. You have been at the top of the lottery for a while, and are still terrible. We never know what will come of Embiid, or Saric, or any of the picks you haven't even made yet. Hell, is Noel even in the long term plan?

I would have kept him around one more year just to see what you had after next year. But you may very well be better off with him gone as well, and a fresh perspective with no bias coming in and examining what this roster has.

ewing
04-07-2016, 11:09 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Kahn got a chance to capitalize and didn't do a good job.

Hinkie didn't. Most the things he gained in trades that he could capitalize on haven't had a chance to prove him good/bad. Saric, LAL pick, OKC pick, Miami pick, Sac Swaps (16/17), Sac Pick (18 top 10 protected, 19 unprotected). One of his picks has yet to see the court. Two of them have less than two years of playing. I think second round picks having success and UDFAs having success like Covington, Grant, McDaniels, Holmes, McConnell prove that Hinkie does have some eye for talent.



I think you have a one sided POV. Hinkie did get the sixers picks and financial flexibility. He also made no attempt to field a competitive roster in the mean time. Even while flooring a bad team a GM should have some care with regard to roster construction. The sixers had no vets to teach guys, no real pros to gauge guys against in practice, they were paying guys not in uniform to reach the salary floor, they were reportedly burning bridges with agents and developing a bad rep with players, etc. I'd be happy b/c with him gone guys like ingram and simmons are going to be willing to work out for you, give interviews, not be disgruntled from the jump, ect.

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 11:10 AM
what about the other 28 teams that don't win every year?

So it's basically all or nothing?

By your logic Philly and Torronto are the same since neither will be winning a chip.

Actually by this extreme bass ackwards logic Philly is in a better place than Torronto since it's better to be as horrible as possible instead of mediocre-good.

xnick5757
04-07-2016, 11:11 AM
I'm a Boston fan ;)

Red Sox winning it all in 2013 was worth the suck before and after though.

And the point of "the process" was to get a player like AI.

MagicBucsSox
04-07-2016, 11:11 AM
Im a magic fan but i love in cherry hill nj (15mins away),happy about this move. A real gm to repair a team i see more than my own .

xnick5757
04-07-2016, 11:16 AM
Also it's worth remembering that outside of this year, the 76ers have never been the worst team in the league under Hinkie

warfelg
04-07-2016, 11:16 AM
I am aware of his movies, I tended to follow the Sixers moves to see how it ended up.

I didn't mean to compare him straight up to Kahn, sorry. What I meant was, how long do you give the guy? He has had his team in the gutter for years now. What is the realistic win total for next year? 20 at best, assuming everything goes great?

All those picks don't mean a ton. You have been at the top of the lottery for a while, and are still terrible. We never know what will come of Embiid, or Saric, or any of the picks you haven't even made yet. Hell, is Noel even in the long term plan?

I would have kept him around one more year just to see what you had after next year. But you may very well be better off with him gone as well, and a fresh perspective with no bias coming in and examining what this roster has.

And I said: This summer was important. It would have been the completion of his third season as GM, his 4th draft.

That 13/14 season should be "tossed out" in terms of evaluating Hinkie as a GM because one rookie was out and he was still shedding the mistakes of Collins/Dileo/Stafinski.

The summer of 15 looked important because of the 1/6/11 possibility. But we ended up with one pick, and the attitude was you can put the success or failure of this until we hit the "big offseason" where multiple picks conveyed, guys came over/got healthy, and we had $60+ mil in cap space.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 11:19 AM
I think you have a one sided POV. Hinkie did get the sixers picks and financial flexibility. He also made no attempt to field a competitive roster in the mean time. Even while flooring a bad team a GM should have some care with regard to roster construction. [B]The sixers had no vets to teach guys, no real pros to gauge guys against in practice, [B/B]they were paying guys not in uniform to reach the salary floor, they were reportedly burning bridges with agents and developing a bad rep with players, etc. I'd be happy b/c with him gone guys like ingram and simmons are going to be willing to work out for you, give interviews, not be disgruntled from the jump, ect.

You mean other than Ish Smith, Kendal Marshall, Luc Richard, Elton Brand, Carl Landry, Jason Richardson right? All guys outside their rookie contract with 4+ years that have been on the Soxers the last two years.

Your Troll/Bait charade has gotten old dude.

Stinkyoutsider
04-07-2016, 11:21 AM
Well, at least the 6ers are left with some picks for the future? Someone else can step in and make some draft choices to see if they pan out.

I'm not sure what was going on behind the scenes for these few years but I think that either the 6ers were snakebit (injuries to top draft picks) or they couldn't make the tough decision to trade down/trade out to draft differently? I'm not sure whether to blame the management for drafting players who were possibly injury prone (Embiid, Noel) or the medical staffs for how they handled them?

The 6ers front office should be happy this isn't soccer because Philly would have been relegated to a lower league long ago and tanking to get better wouldn't have been an option.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 11:21 AM
Also it's worth remembering that outside of this year, the 76ers have never been the worst team in the league under Hinkie

I mean I rather be us (Sixers) than the Nets. The nets are terrible, cap maxed, 1 foot young player (Larkin), 2 ok tradable (not for much) assets (Lopez, Young), and someone holds their draft nuts (Celtics) for the next 4 years.

It's amazing me how much of a pass the Nets are getting for their complete ineptitude.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 11:22 AM
And I said: This summer was important. It would have been the completion of his third season as GM, his 4th draft.

That 13/14 season should be "tossed out" in terms of evaluating Hinkie as a GM because one rookie was out and he was still shedding the mistakes of Collins/Dileo/Stafinski.

The summer of 15 looked important because of the 1/6/11 possibility. But we ended up with one pick, and the attitude was you can put the success or failure of this until we hit the "big offseason" where multiple picks conveyed, guys came over/got healthy, and we had $60+ mil in cap space.

maybe it's time to trust someone else to capitalize on what he created is all.

I don't care either way. I was looking forward to the finished product (whether it was a success or a disaster), now we never get to see it.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 11:28 AM
maybe it's time to trust someone else to capitalize on what he created is all.

I don't care either way. I was looking forward to the finished product (whether it was a success or a disaster), now we never get to see it.

Disagree on it was time to trust someone else. Other than NFL, GMs/HCs (for NCAA) need 4/5 years to build their programs, develop guys in house, and make some signings. It always cracks me up when a guy is fired after 1/2 years and a handful of moves because one of them didn't pan out in the first 5 games of them being there.

ewing
04-07-2016, 11:33 AM
You mean other than Ish Smith, Kendal Marshall, Luc Richard, Elton Brand, Carl Landry, Jason Richardson right? All guys outside their rookie contract with 4+ years that have been on the Soxers the last two years.

Your Troll/Bait charade has gotten old dude.



you are right he cared about roster construction, made young guys feel like they were in the plans, gave them everything they needed to develop, reportedly was respected by agents around the league, and helped make Philly be seen as a place prospects wanted to get drafted into.

ewing
04-07-2016, 11:35 AM
I mean I rather be us (Sixers) than the Nets. The nets are terrible, cap maxed, 1 foot young player (Larkin), 2 ok tradable (not for much) assets (Lopez, Young), and someone holds their draft nuts (Celtics) for the next 4 years.

It's amazing me how much of a pass the Nets are getting for their complete ineptitude.


I don't think they get a pass. Everyone knows they ****ed themselves. Its the Sixers looking for a pass that gets a reaction

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 11:46 AM
Boston has a team full of young up and coming players, future draft pick "assets," cap space, and is going to the playoffs. They also have created a environment that attracts potential Free agents, as opposed to being a laughing stock that players can't wait to flee.

In short they have everything the Philly "process" is supposed to accomplish while remaining competitive and gaining valuable playoff experience.

The tank your way to contender theory is total hogwash.

KnicksorBust
04-07-2016, 11:57 AM
And I said: This summer was important. It would have been the completion of his third season as GM, his 4th draft.

That 13/14 season should be "tossed out" in terms of evaluating Hinkie as a GM because one rookie was out and he was still shedding the mistakes of Collins/Dileo/Stafinski.

The summer of 15 looked important because of the 1/6/11 possibility. But we ended up with one pick, and the attitude was you can put the success or failure of this until we hit the "big offseason" where multiple picks conveyed, guys came over/got healthy, and we had $60+ mil in cap space.

I agree with this guy. You don't adopt the mantra "The Process" for your plans if you expect to be contending in 3 years. The funny part is now the Sixers have all these picks, cap space, and young players and if they turn into a good team who gets the credit?

MagicBucsSox
04-07-2016, 11:59 AM
I mean I rather be us (Sixers) than the Nets. The nets are terrible, cap maxed, 1 foot young player (Larkin), 2 ok tradable (not for much) assets (Lopez, Young), and someone holds their draft nuts (Celtics) for the next 4 years.

It's amazing me how much of a pass the Nets are getting for their complete ineptitude.

Pass? No, no one cares bc they hired Billy King to be GM, fired him but hes still employed by them. It was expected. SAM hinkie was suppose to be a analytic genius. Instead he was just Billy king

warfelg
04-07-2016, 12:00 PM
I agree with this guy. You don't adopt the mantra "The Process" for your plans if you expect to be contending in 3 years. The funny part is now the Sixers have all these picks, cap space, and young players and if they turn into a good team who gets the credit?

Sixer fans+those who pay attention will credit Hinkie.

Outsiders who mocked the whole thing will credit Colangelo no matter what.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 12:08 PM
Pass? No, no one cares bc they hired Billy King to be GM, fired him but hes still employed by them. It was expected. SAM hinkie was suppose to be a analytic genius. Instead he was just Billy king

Far from it. But keep telling yourself that.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 12:09 PM
fwiw, I do think Hinkie left the team in a much better position than when he took it over. Unfortunately, in pro sports, you are given only so much time, and if there aren't actual improvements, you are gone.

IndyRealist
04-07-2016, 12:12 PM
Part of the issue is that analytics is good at finding diamond-in-the-rough players, not boom or bust high picks. It's good for saying "Jae Crowder and Will Barton are underrated players", it really doesn't tell you much different about Embiid or MCW that scouts couldn't tell you already.

PhillyFaninLA
04-07-2016, 12:28 PM
fwiw, I do think Hinkie left the team in a much better position than when he took it over. Unfortunately, in pro sports, you are given only so much time, and if there aren't actual improvements, you are gone.

Had Hinkie not written that letter, he would have been able to get a job as an assistant GM or some other position possibly...maybe a cap and numbers guy that supports the GM, but that letter makes him a bit toxic right now.

I stand by what I said a few pages ago and its somewhat similiar to part of what you are saying....This team needed a complete tear down and rebuild....Hinkie did a masterful job at tearing it down. He just didn't know what to do when it was torn down...now 2 guys that have won executive of the year and built teams that where competitive are now running the show....we'll see what they do, if we end up with 4 first round picks (that would mean we have 4 and 5 or somewhere in the top 3 and 4), if Saric comes offer (its all but official at this point), if Embiid can be healthy, but I think we are a year away from being an attractive free agent destination.

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 12:30 PM
The Colangelo's built a freakin' powerhouse in PHX without tanking. Philly tanked and sold the farm for enough assets, time to use those assets, use that cap space and start making moves to build a winner. What a thought?

A power house? How many championship trophies are in PHX from the Colangelo era?

Time to use everything? No it wasn't.

They had as good a chance as any to win it for half a decade. Every year there is 3 or 4 teams with a legit shot - they were one of them every year during that span. That's all you can ask for. They came closer than any multi year tankahon I can think of.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 12:31 PM
Pass? No, no one cares bc they hired Billy King to be GM, fired him but hes still employed by them. It was expected. SAM hinkie was suppose to be a analytic genius. Instead he was just Billy king

this is laughable.

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 12:38 PM
Philly fans are basically saying there is no point at all in trying to use cap, use assets and build a team until a LeBron James level pick lands on the roster. Hinkie was relying on a game of Roulette to build your contender. Colangelo's will use astute management instead. Hinkie wanted to rely on variables well outside of his control to win. That's not a way executives should run any business.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 12:51 PM
Philly fans are basically saying there is no point at all in trying to use cap, use assets and build a team until a LeBron James level pick lands on the roster. Hinkie was relying on a game of Roulette to build your contender. Colangelo's will use astute management instead. Hinkie wanted to rely on variables well outside of his control to win. That's not a way executives should run any business.

literally not one person said anything close to do that, ever.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 12:53 PM
They had as good a chance as any to win it for half a decade. Every year there is 3 or 4 teams with a legit shot - they were one of them every year during that span. That's all you can ask for. They came closer than any multi year tankahon I can think of.

lol. Hinkie was hired in 2013. But sure 3=5.

Chronz
04-07-2016, 12:56 PM
Boston has a team full of young up and coming players, future draft pick "assets," cap space, and is going to the playoffs. They also have created a environment that attracts potential Free agents, as opposed to being a laughing stock that players can't wait to flee.

In short they have everything the Philly "process" is supposed to accomplish while remaining competitive and gaining valuable playoff experience.

The tank your way to contender theory is total hogwash.
But that's exactly what Boston did....

ewing
04-07-2016, 01:01 PM
Part of the issue is that analytics is good at finding diamond-in-the-rough players, not boom or bust high picks. It's good for saying "Jae Crowder and Will Barton are underrated players", it really doesn't tell you much different about Embiid or MCW that scouts couldn't tell you already.

I was very high on Jae Crowder on the Mavs. The stats crowd on PSD told me he was inefficient and couldn't be a legit rotation guy b/c he couldn't shoot the 3. I also thought Corey Alexander was a superstar. Stats help but they aren't a cheat code.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 01:03 PM
But that's exactly what Boston did....

I feel like both Boston and Phoenix tried to start tanking the same year as us, but accidentally put together teams that worked and had great chemistry to win games.

We obviously sucked.
Phoenix tried to tweak the starting lineup and ruined what they had.
Boston decided to complement what they had and it worked.

One thing Hinkie wrote in his letter is there are many ways to build your team. There is no right and no wrong way. No one way is a proven way. But being different in how he did it brought criticism that no one deserved to hear.

Sportsguy9695
04-07-2016, 01:04 PM
Wow they didn't even wait till the end of the year. It will be intrest ing to see how it plays out in the summer

ewing
04-07-2016, 01:11 PM
]Had Hinkie not written that letter, he would have been able to get a job as an assistant GM or some other position possibly...maybe a cap and numbers guy that supports the GM, but that letter makes him a bit toxic right now.[/B]

I stand by what I said a few pages ago and its somewhat similiar to part of what you are saying....This team needed a complete tear down and rebuild....Hinkie did a masterful job at tearing it down. He just didn't know what to do when it was torn down...now 2 guys that have won executive of the year and built teams that where competitive are now running the show....we'll see what they do, if we end up with 4 first round picks (that would mean we have 4 and 5 or somewhere in the top 3 and 4), if Saric comes offer (its all but official at this point), if Embiid can be healthy, but I think we are a year away from being an attractive free agent destination.



I agree with this and think "his look at me, I'm the smartest guy in the room" attitude got him more heat for this tank in Philly as well.

IBleedPurple
04-07-2016, 01:14 PM
While I really dislike what Philly has done, I understood why. However, I do not understand why this happened now. Thought the difference in opinions would've shown earlier than this, but it's the only logical reason for Hinkie leaving.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 01:16 PM
LOL this tweet from Michael Levin is right on:

if you look at the team Hinkie inherited and can't see how much he's done in under 3 years, you should be fired from whatever job you have.

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 01:24 PM
But that's exactly what Boston did....


Boston did a total rebuild but continued to improve year by year.

There's a lot of differences between what they and Philly did but some of them are:

-drafted well, drafted players that could actually impact the team.

-Made smart trades for players that could improve the team

-hired a coach that was actually about making his teams fight and developing a winning culture, as opposed to just observing talent with a season long scrimmage

-continued to fight for the playoffs for years when they were in the 9-12 range, instead of shutting it down and tanking after allstar break and shooting for dead last in the conference

Chronz
04-07-2016, 01:47 PM
Boston did a total rebuild but continued to improve year by year.

There's a lot of differences between what they and Philly did but some of them are:

-drafted well, drafted players that could actually impact the team.

-Made smart trades for players that could improve the team

-hired a coach that was actually about making his teams fight and developing a winning culture, as opposed to just observing talent with a season long scrimmage

-continued to fight for the playoffs for years when they were in the 9-12 range, instead of shutting it down and tanking after allstar break and shooting for dead last in the conference
Youre looking at the wrong years. You gotta go way back to when they were a treadmill team then decided to blow the team up and tank. They then netted assets that got them into contention (which you claimed doesn't work). Once those pieces aged they sold them off while they still had name value.

Surely you can see why a team inheriting a big3 would have an easier rebuild than a team that was jettisoning the likes of evan Turner, especially given how thirsty Brooklyn was.

You're essentially giving Boston like a 5 year headstart in their rebuild by focusing solely ok what they've done the last few years. One team was rebuilding from a place of former contention the other was fielding a loser before tearing it down. A considerably harder job, best to try an apples to apples comparison or at least acknowledge context

warfelg
04-07-2016, 01:55 PM
Youre looking at the wrong years. You gotta go way back to when they were a treadmill team then decided to blow the team up and tank. They then netted assets that got them into contention (which you claimed doesn't work). Once those pieces aged they sold them off while they still had name value.

Surely you can see why a team inheriting a big3 would have an easier rebuild than a team that was jettisoning the likes of evan Turner, especially given how thirsty Brooklyn was.

You're essentially giving Boston like a 5 year headstart in their rebuild by focusing solely ok what they've done the last few years. One team was rebuilding from a place of former contention the other was fielding a loser before tearing it down. A considerably harder job, best to try an apples to apples comparison or at least acknowledge context

I know it's a bit late to mention this, but you are spot on with what Lowe and Hinkie said in the Lowe Post on Tuesday.

Rebuilding from the point of a contender is always easier than a middling team to move either way and both guys said it. And both admitted you either go from bad to good. Good to ok. The teams stuck in the middle rarely make headway either way.

valade16
04-07-2016, 02:07 PM
The top 3 players on the best team in the league are:

Steph Curry - 7th overall pick
Draymond Green - 2nd rd 35th overall pick
Klay Thompson - 11th overall pick

The top 2 players on the 2nd best team are:

Kawhi Leonard - 15th overall pick
LaMarcus Aldridge - Free Agent Signing


So already the premise of his strategy is flawed. You don't need a top pick to draft then next superstar player.

beasted86
04-07-2016, 02:12 PM
I didn't think Hinkie did that bad of a Job. Sixers was just more obvious with the tanking then other teams. Sixers win totals were about the same as many other teams.

I don't think he lost any trade he made in tenure.

if Embed or Saric become an allstar, i think we would at Hinkie all different.
He wasn't terrible, but he wasn't really good either. He's simply stuck to the direction they decided on. Nonetheless, like I pointed out already in this thread, he hasn't been able to find diamonds in the rough outside the 1st round in the draft by way of walk on players, bought late 2nd rounders or trades for actual players they want to keep.

Sure they might have a bunch of draft picks but they don't have any "sure set" long term players that they envision to be there and aren't willing to give up. Everyone on the roster is totally tradeable outside Embiid right now. I dare a Philly fan to disagree. That's a pretty bad place to be in 3 years into this. For a team like the Knicks Pozingis is almost untouchable, Towns, Wiggins, maybe LaVine for the Wolves, Parker for the Bucks, Hood for the Jazz, Jokic for the Nuggets.

That's how you want to rebuild or retool. Draft guys that you are at least sold on after a year that your organization has almost no thoughts of trading them unless its an unbelievable lopsided offer. The fact that the Sixers have none of those guys says that maybe Hinkie should have been open to more input.

Instead he quit on them.


Read the full letter. Because it backs everything us fans have been saying without us ever hearing this stuff said in the media by Hinkie.
Yeah, I'm not reading all that from this guy. From your add on excerpts he still sounds insufferable with delusions of grandeur.

KnicksorBust
04-07-2016, 02:22 PM
The top 3 players on the best team in the league are:

Steph Curry - 7th overall pick
Draymond Green - 2nd rd 35th overall pick
Klay Thompson - 11th overall pick

The top 2 players on the 2nd best team are:

Kawhi Leonard - 15th overall pick
LaMarcus Aldridge - Free Agent Signing


So already the premise of his strategy is flawed. You don't need a top pick to draft then next superstar player.

What percent of the 50 greatest players in NBA History were drafted in the top 10 of the draft?

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 02:23 PM
Philly fans are basically saying there is no point at all in trying to use cap, use assets and build a team until a LeBron James level pick lands on the roster. Hinkie was relying on a game of Roulette to build your contender. Colangelo's will use astute management instead. Hinkie wanted to rely on variables well outside of his control to win. That's not a way executives should run any business.

literally not one person said anything close to do that, ever.

I said "basically". It's being implied through statements like "right now (year 3) is not the time to start using cap and assets yet".

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 02:26 PM
They had as good a chance as any to win it for half a decade. Every year there is 3 or 4 teams with a legit shot - they were one of them every year during that span. That's all you can ask for. They came closer than any multi year tankahon I can think of.

lol. Hinkie was hired in 2013. But sure 3=5.

I didn't say anything about 5 years with regards to Philly. I said multi year tankathon. Follow the quotes brah.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 02:26 PM
What percent of the 50 greatest players in NBA History were drafted in the top 10 of the draft?

I feel like the recent success of Curry, Klay, Khawi, Lillard has made people forget that being in the top 5 is most likely place to find a (potential) superstar. That list is much longer: Duncan, Melo, LeBron, Love, Griffin, CP3, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Wade, Bosh, Wall were all top 5 picks.

Yes every now and then a mid lotto guy surprises everyone. But for the most part that's the exception not the rule.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 02:29 PM
I said "basically". It's being implied through statements like "right now (year 3) is not the time to start using cap and assets yet".

so we should go pay vet slobs like Channing Frye who wont help?

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 02:36 PM
I feel like the recent success of Curry, Klay, Khawi, Lillard has made people forget that being in the top 5 is most likely place to find a (potential) superstar. That list is much longer: Duncan, Melo, LeBron, Love, Griffin, CP3, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Wade, Bosh, Wall were all top 5 picks.

Yes every now and then a mid lotto guy surprises everyone. But for the most part that's the exception not the rule.

http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

beasted86
04-07-2016, 02:37 PM
I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that Hinkie quit, and was not fired or forced to resign.

The letter screams of a power trip ego that he wasn't willing to accept any input or criticism.

IndyRealist
04-07-2016, 02:41 PM
I was very high on Jae Crowder on the Mavs. The stats crowd on PSD told me he was inefficient and couldn't be a legit rotation guy b/c he couldn't shoot the 3. I also thought Corey Alexander was a superstar. Stats help but they aren't a cheat code.

I'm in the stats crowd, and Crowder ranked very highly statistically, because he was a superb rebounder for his position and extemely efficient at the rim. Dallas cited statistical websites when they picked him. I can find the quotes if you really want it.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 02:42 PM
http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

So it backs almost exactly what I said: best chances at a star is a top 5 pick.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 02:45 PM
So it backs almost exactly what I said: best chances at a star is a top 5 pick.

absolutely

Now, do most of the great teams in history also have a diamond in the rough player or 2? Sure. But statistically, you have to find your franchise player in the draft inside the top 5 usually.

ewing
04-07-2016, 02:47 PM
I'm in the stats crowd, and Crowder ranked very highly statistically, because he was a superb rebounder for his position and extemely efficient at the rim. Dallas cited statistical websites when they picked him. I can find the quotes if you really want it.

not necessary, i believe you. I was also talking about before Boston signed him. I didn't know Crowder before the Mavs. I was very high on him before Boston signed him though

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 02:48 PM
I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that Hinkie quit, and was not fired or forced to resign.

The letter screams of a power trip ego that he wasn't willing to accept any input or criticism.

he was asked to take a lesser role so JC's kid could come take over everything he had started. Hinkie had every right to quit.

Alayla
04-07-2016, 02:49 PM
I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that Hinkie quit, and was not fired or forced to resign.

The letter screams of a power trip ego that he wasn't willing to accept any input or criticism.

They planned to hire byran no matter what wanted hinkie to just do analytics to pick targets and byran to do trade negotiations he was basically quietly fired.

R. Johnson#3
04-07-2016, 02:50 PM
With Bryan Colangelo at the helm you can guarantee at least one of Okafor, Noel or Embiid will be traded.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 02:53 PM
absolutely

Now, do most of the great teams in history also have a diamond in the rough player or 2? Sure. But statistically, you have to find your franchise player in the draft inside the top 5 usually.

Yup. It's why I hate when I hear people say that SAS/GSW didn't tank for Curry/Khawai. They don't realize: 1) how rare Curry is and 2) Khawai landed in the perfect situation to develop.

ewing
04-07-2016, 02:53 PM
So it backs almost exactly what I said: best chances at a star is a top 5 pick.

i thought it was about winning titles. In the past 10 years, Bron, Wade, and TD in 04/05 are the only top 5 picks to win finals MVP.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 02:58 PM
Yup. It's why I hate when I hear people say that SAS/GSW didn't tank for Curry/Khawai. They don't realize: 1) how rare Curry is and 2) Khawai landed in the perfect situation to develop.

well, what about:

Jordan
Hakeem
Magic
Shaq
LeBron
Wade
Davis
Griffin
Paul
Duncan
Robinson
Dwight
Harden
Westbrook
Durant

blah blah blah

Cherry picking the 10-15 all timers who were not top 5 picks doesn't negate that the majority of all timers were.

ewing
04-07-2016, 02:58 PM
With Bryan Colangelo at the helm you can guarantee at least one of Okafor, Noel or Embiid will be traded.

why do you think that?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 02:58 PM
i thought it was about winning titles. In the past 10 years, Bron, Wade, and TD in 04/05 are the only top 5 picks to win finals MVP.

Whoop de doo on finals MVP? Pretty sure all of the last 10 champions featured a player picked in the top 5 anyways.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 02:59 PM
i thought it was about winning titles. In the past 10 years, Bron, Wade, and TD in 04/05 are the only top 5 picks to win finals MVP.

It doesn't negate the fact that statistically you are going to find a superstar in the top 5 picks more often than outside of it, by like a lot.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 03:01 PM
well, what about:

Jordan
Hakeem
Magic
Shaq
LeBron
Wade
Davis
Griffin
Paul
Duncan
Robinson
Dwight
Harden
Westbrook
Durant

blah blah blah

Cherry picking the 10-15 all timers who were not top 5 picks doesn't negate that the majority of all timers were.

What? I don't get what you are saying. I'm in agreement that most of your great players are a top 5 pick.

I was pointing out that Curry was a rarity with what he's done and Khawai landed in a perfect development situation. That those are rare cases and can't be pointed to as "the way to do it".

Hawkeye15
04-07-2016, 03:02 PM
What? I don't get what you are saying. I'm in agreement that most of your great players are a top 5 pick.

I was pointing out that Curry was a rarity with what he's done and Khawai landed in a perfect development situation. That those are rare cases and can't be pointed to as "the way to do it".

nah, we are in agreement.

Vee-Rex
04-07-2016, 03:04 PM
I mean I rather be us (Sixers) than the Nets. The nets are terrible, cap maxed, 1 foot young player (Larkin), 2 ok tradable (not for much) assets (Lopez, Young), and someone holds their draft nuts (Celtics) for the next 4 years.

It's amazing me how much of a pass the Nets are getting for their complete ineptitude.

Probably because, you know, they actually tried to put a winning product on the court. They've made the playoffs multiple times as well as gotten past the 1st round.

Their organization screwed up by sacrificing the entire future for a 1-2 year "window" while depending entirely on the backs of older vets. So yes, while they're in a much worst situation than any team in the league IMO, they're still not viewed 'somekindaway' just because they attempted to win, rather than tank.

ewing
04-07-2016, 03:04 PM
Whoop de doo on finals MVP? Pretty sure all of the last 10 champions featured a player picked in the top 5 anyways.


i thought you were looking for a guy that could be the most important player on an NBA champion, my bad

warfelg
04-07-2016, 03:10 PM
Probably because, you know, they actually tried to put a winning product on the court. They've made the playoffs multiple times as well as gotten past the 1st round.

Their organization screwed up by sacrificing the entire future for a 1-2 year "window" while depending entirely on the backs of older vets. So yes, while they're in a much worst situation than any team in the league IMO, they're still not viewed 'somekindaway' just because they attempted to win, rather than tank.

Ok...we tried by doing the same thing shipping out a first, Moultrie, Iggy, Vucavic, and something else (can't remember) for Bynum and it failed.

Difference is we didn't go out and sign a couple meh guys to big contracts and managed to trade back for a future.

The Nets aren't attempting to win right now. They are a bad team with no cap and no future.

Tony_Starks
04-07-2016, 03:13 PM
Youre looking at the wrong years. You gotta go way back to when they were a treadmill team then decided to blow the team up and tank. They then netted assets that got them into contention (which you claimed doesn't work). Once those pieces aged they sold them off while they still had name value.

Surely you can see why a team inheriting a big3 would have an easier rebuild than a team that was jettisoning the likes of evan Turner, especially given how thirsty Brooklyn was.

You're essentially giving Boston like a 5 year headstart in their rebuild by focusing solely ok what they've done the last few years. One team was rebuilding from a place of former contention the other was fielding a loser before tearing it down. A considerably harder job, best to try an apples to apples comparison or at least acknowledge context


The part about it being easier to rebuild from a contender is actually true.

The part about Boston drafting well you conveniently skipped.

If Boston drafted the way Philly has over the years we are having a entirely different conversation

If Boston hires a different coach we also would be having a different conversation, their guy is COY material

R. Johnson#3
04-07-2016, 03:14 PM
why do you think that?

He's not a big fan of waiting around. Trust me.

Chronz
04-07-2016, 03:17 PM
I know it's a bit late to mention this, but you are spot on with what Lowe and Hinkie said in the Lowe Post on Tuesday.

Rebuilding from the point of a contender is always easier than a middling team to move either way and both guys said it. And both admitted you either go from bad to good. Good to ok. The teams stuck in the middle rarely make headway either way.

Awesome. I love Lowe, checking it out as we speak

warfelg
04-07-2016, 03:19 PM
The part about it being easier to rebuild from a contender is actually true.

The part about Boston drafting well you conveniently skipped.

If Boston drafted the way Philly has over the years we are having a entirely different conversation

If Boston hires a different coach we also would be having a different conversation, their guy is COY material

How exactly didn't we draft well? Even though I'm not in love with who we ended up with, all three guys were at one point or for most their seasons of CBB considered the #1 or #2 pick. It's not like we reached for some guy that had no business being picked at that spot.

valade16
04-07-2016, 03:21 PM
What percent of the 50 greatest players in NBA History were drafted in the top 10 of the draft?

It's a flawed question already because the 76ers weren't trying to be top 10 bad, they were striving to be top 1-3 bad, so if you want to narrow it down to how many of the top 50 greatest players were top 1-3 picks it'd be more accurate. But it wouldn't even be totally accurate because it's possibly to acquire those players without drafting them via trades or FA.

So the accurate question would actually be:

How many top 50 players were drafted 1-3 and won a championship with the initial team that drafted them?

That list is probably a lot shorter...

warfelg
04-07-2016, 03:21 PM
i thought you were looking for a guy that could be the most important player on an NBA champion, my bad

Iggy just won Finals MVP over Curry, the MVP and Warriors best player. But it's absurd to think that Iggy is their most important player.

ewing
04-07-2016, 03:25 PM
Iggy just won Finals MVP over Curry, the MVP and Warriors best player. But it's absurd to think that Iggy is their most important player.

neither were a top 5 pick. Bogut was. If you find Bogut irreplaceable you have a case

beasted86
04-07-2016, 03:29 PM
Ok...we tried by doing the same thing shipping out a first, Moultrie, Iggy, Vucavic, and something else (can't remember) for Bynum and it failed.

Difference is we didn't go out and sign a couple meh guys to big contracts and managed to trade back for a future.

The Nets aren't attempting to win right now. They are a bad team with no cap and no future.

The Nets future is the same future as the Sixers. Losing epically and building through the draft.

Get off your high horse supporting a perennial tank job thinking the Sixers are making good decisions when they have given you nothing but a loser for the last 4 years.

How can you get mad at fans for criticizing your team trying something different when you're doing the same thing with the Nets attempt to build a contender?

warfelg
04-07-2016, 03:35 PM
The Nets future is the same future as the Sixers. Losing epically and building through the draft.

Get off your high horse supporting a perennial tank job thinking the Sixers are making good decisions when they have given you nothing but a loser for the last 4 years.

How can you get mad at fans for criticizing your team trying something different when you're doing the same thing with the Nets attempt to build a contender?

The Nets either don't have their pick or have the lower of theirs/Boston pick for the next 3/4 years.

On the flip we have out own pick+LAL+OKC+Miami+ 2 swaps with SAC+ 2018/19 Sac pick.

Also the first year, I will defend trading for Bynum, because if it works we sit in the east with a top 2 C in Bynum, Jrue off a AS season, Thad Young as a 3rd option and ET on the wing. If it worked we would be a good team.

But it backfired. That's what happened with us taking a shot. We were left with not many young players, not too many picks, and little cap space.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 03:37 PM
The Nets future is the same future as the Sixers. Losing epically and building through the draft.

Get off your high horse supporting a perennial tank job thinking the Sixers are making good decisions when they have given you nothing but a loser for the last 4 years.

How can you get mad at fans for criticizing your team trying something different when you're doing the same thing with the Nets attempt to build a contender?

lol what draft picks or cap space or assets do the Nets have? The Nets lost millions even advancing past the first round.

D-Leethal
04-07-2016, 03:39 PM
I said "basically". It's being implied through statements like "right now (year 3) is not the time to start using cap and assets yet".

so we should go pay vet slobs like Channing Frye who wont help?

You should sign NBA players, maintain flexibility, and try to get better. You know, what every team in the history of the league has done during a rebuilding process. Add guys who compliment the top picks you tanked for 3 years to grab.

IndyRealist
04-07-2016, 03:49 PM
not necessary, i believe you. I was also talking about before Boston signed him. I didn't know Crowder before the Mavs. I was very high on him before Boston signed him though

They really shouldn't have assumed he was a finished product after only 2 years in the league, especially considering how hard of a worker he is. That ignores ages curves which are essential to any statistical evaluation.

beasted86
04-07-2016, 03:56 PM
The Nets either don't have their pick or have the lower of theirs/Boston pick for the next 3/4 years.

On the flip we have out own pick+LAL+OKC+Miami+ 2 swaps with SAC+ 2018/19 Sac pick.

Also the first year, I will defend trading for Bynum, because if it works we sit in the east with a top 2 C in Bynum, Jrue off a AS season, Thad Young as a 3rd option and ET on the wing. If it worked we would be a good team.

But it backfired. That's what happened with us taking a shot. We were left with not many young players, not too many picks, and little cap space.
Okay, so it didn't backfire that the old guys didn't have enough to get past Miami, the Wiz and whoever else they faced? It's two shaky decisions by two different teams, same result: they failed. Nets failed and Sixers failed.

You don't get to sit on a high horse when in actuality the end result is the same: Over the past 10 years neither team was able to make it past the 2nd round, only made the playoffs half the time, made big gambles on trades and as a result are both now rebuilding. To take it even further, neither team will be winning the championship in at least the next 4 years. The teams are in the same state of losing with winning in no near future.

And does it matter where each team is picking or not? The result is the same. Both the Sixers and Nets will be losing epically and building through the draft. Whether the later part is choosing with a top 5 pick or a non lottery pick, the result is the same. You both will certainly be losing a lot. Losing and hoping rookies and walk on players turn it around for both of you.

valade16
04-07-2016, 03:58 PM
As a fun exercise I looked at the past 10 drafts (except 2015), specifically the top 10 picks. I was looking for transcendent superstars, because that was the whole point of the 76ers strategy, not to get good or even very good players (although they wanted to get those too) but the idea was to get better odds to draft the next transcendent superstar.

But I realized all of our calculations were flawed in that we were basing the % of superstars drafted at the top of the draft without determining how likely that was. Showing that X number of top 50 players were drafted top 10 only shows us the most common way to get a top 50 player, but it doesn't show us the % of top 10 drafted players that end up being top 50 level players. So I did that for the last 10 years to see what the 76ers chances of getting a transcendent superstar are.

Here were the guys who are clearly or were clearly at the top of the league and considered guys who are superstars:

Anthony Davis
Blake Griffin
James Harden
Steph Curry
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul

Here are the next level guys who are not quite that transcendent superstar but still would be very good consolation prizes:

Andrew Wiggins
Damian Lillard
Andre Drummond
Kyrie Irving
John Wall
DeMarcus Cousins
Paul George
Gordon Hayward
Kevin Love
Al Horford
Mike Conley
LaMarcus Aldridge

If you feel strongly that one or a few of them should be moved up to the top tier go ahead, it won't drastically change the odds.


So that is 7 players who would probably be considered among the top 10 players in the league currently. Those are the type of players the 76ers were looking for and hoping to draft. But that is 7 players... in 100 draft picks during that time. So the 76ers were banking on a strategy that would yield them the superstar they were looking for 7% of the time within the first 10 picks. In fact, for the first 3 picks, it goes up to 13% (4/30).

No matter how you view it, those are still not strong odds. Are they more likely to draft that transcendent superstar with a higher pick? Yes they are, but in the same way you are more likely to win the lottery if you buy 100 tickets. You have increased your odds, but it's still a long shot (obviously not nearly to the degree the lottery is but the point is the same).

So the fact the 76ers as of yet haven't drafted a transcendent superstar isn't abnormal, it's statistically what was likely to happen with this strategy all along.

beasted86
04-07-2016, 04:01 PM
lol what draft picks or cap space or assets do the Nets have? The Nets lost millions even advancing past the first round.
Nets have the same abundance of cap space and have picks coming every other year.

Both teams are losers who are situated in huge markets but are losing the fans. I don't know why you see these teams as that much different. Neither is winning a title anytime soon.

RLundi
04-07-2016, 04:15 PM
Well I get what he was trying to do, as a GM, his job is to get results. He didn't do that. So I agree with the firing but I think he should've been given more time to see if his plan worked. That's what he was hired for. So I get to see both sides of the coin flip, but I do think it was time for him to go.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 04:19 PM
Well I get what he was trying to do, as a GM, his job is to get results. He didn't do that. So I agree with the firing but I think he should've been given more time to see if his plan worked. That's what he was hired for. So I get to see both sides of the coin flip, but I do think it was time for him to go.

He wasn't fired. He was told Bryan Colangelo was going to be brought in to work in tandem with him, and Hinkie wasn't too keen on that so he stepped down.

valade16
04-07-2016, 04:21 PM
He wasn't fired. He was told Bryan Colangelo was going to be brought in to work in tandem with him, and Hinkie wasn't too keen on that so he stepped down.

I will say that I agree with one thing you said earlier and that was he wasn't given a chance to fulfill the vision he pitched to the 76ers. They knew what he was trying to do and they let him go before he could finish his process. If you didn't want to wait as long as Hinkie was proposing with his vision you should have never hired him in the first place.

Either don't hire him or hire him and give him the time he needs to do what he told you he was going to do.

RLundi
04-07-2016, 04:32 PM
He wasn't fired. He was told Bryan Colangelo was going to be brought in to work in tandem with him, and Hinkie wasn't too keen on that so he stepped down.

Yup you're right, brain fart, he very clearly resigned in a 13 page letter. Not sure how that slipped my mind.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 04:34 PM
I will say that I agree with one thing you said earlier and that was he wasn't given a chance to fulfill the vision he pitched to the 76ers. They knew what he was trying to do and they let him go before he could finish his process. If you didn't want to wait as long as Hinkie was proposing with his vision you should have never hired him in the first place.

Either don't hire him or hire him and give him the time he needs to do what he told you he was going to do.

I think that's what most of us are frustrated over. If you want to name BC a "special adviser" and give Hinkie the controls for those one last offseason and see what happens, then fine. But they basically wanted to supplant him and have him be a figurehead.

Hinkie deserves this "perfect storm" offseason where he has assets teams have called about, tons of picks, tons of cap, and guys available via trade. See what happens. If he punts again, yea there's the door. But he never got the chance to see out what he acquired in the previous years.

mngopher35
04-07-2016, 04:38 PM
I feel like many people look too closely at one aspect of "the process" as the only way it could possibly work. We have seen a team acquire KG, Allen in one off season via trade. We have seen a team draft KD, Westbrook, Harden in consecutive years. We have seen Miami sign three stars to play together. All of these situations are different but the 76ers were attempting to build a team where they had the flexibility when an opportunity presents itself to do any of them. If they win the lottery last year for Towns it would have been perfect. Since they didn't now they have Okafor who they can try and trade (with other assets) for someone like Butler. If they could trade for Butler they still have plenty of cap space, possibly the first pick for Ingram, and some of the other talent still around like Noel/Saric/Covington maybe Embiid to help round out the team.

This is just one scenario but the point is they have assets, cap space, and draft picks to put the right team together however possible (compared to when this started its quite clearly better, worth it or not is questionable though). I think many expected them to use this off season to do that anyways but now it almost seems certain. Before we say this plan failed we need to see how the pieces they got are used moving forward. Conley(or maybe somehow schroeder/teague trade)/Butler/Ingram/Saric/Noel seems like a competitive young team to me and not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe it ends up perfectly (outside of already missing lottery luck) or maybe it all ends up failing but that will depend on what they do with the assets they have obtained which is now in the hands of the Colangelos.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 04:40 PM
Nets have the same abundance of cap space and have picks coming every other year.

Both teams are losers who are situated in huge markets but are losing the fans. I don't know why you see these teams as that much different. Neither is winning a title anytime soon.

lol we are polar opposites. Nets have no future to be excited for, literally they have nothing. Sixers are set up to succeed and maintain flexibility, Nets have no flexibility. Assets are important for bad teams i order to get better and the Sixers have most in the league while the Nets might have the least.

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 04:45 PM
I feel like many people look too closely at one aspect of "the process" as the only way it could possibly work. We have seen a team acquire KG, Allen in one off season via trade. We have seen a team draft KD, Westbrook, Harden in consecutive years. We have seen Miami sign three stars to play together. All of these situations are different but the 76ers were attempting to build a team where they had the flexibility when an opportunity presents itself to do any of them. If they win the lottery last year for Towns it would have been perfect. Since they didn't now they have Okafor who they can try and trade (with other assets) for someone like Butler. If they could trade for Butler they still have plenty of cap space, possibly the first pick for Ingram, and some of the other talent still around like Noel/Saric/Covington maybe Embiid to help round out the team.

This is just one scenario but the point is they have assets, cap space, and draft picks to put the right team together however possible (compared to when this started its quite clearly better, worth it or not is questionable though). I think many expected them to use this off season to do that anyways but now it almost seems certain. Before we say this plan failed we need to see how the pieces they got are used moving forward. Conley(or maybe somehow schroeder/teague trade)/Butler/Ingram/Saric/Noel seems like a competitive young team to me and not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe it ends up perfectly (outside of already missing lottery luck) or maybe it all ends up failing but that will depend on what they do with the assets they have obtained which is now in the hands of the Colangelos.

logic. nice.

warfelg
04-07-2016, 04:51 PM
I feel like many people look too closely at one aspect of "the process" as the only way it could possibly work. We have seen a team acquire KG, Allen in one off season via trade. We have seen a team draft KD, Westbrook, Harden in consecutive years. We have seen Miami sign three stars to play together. All of these situations are different but the 76ers were attempting to build a team where they had the flexibility when an opportunity presents itself to do any of them. If they win the lottery last year for Towns it would have been perfect. Since they didn't now they have Okafor who they can try and trade (with other assets) for someone like Butler. If they could trade for Butler they still have plenty of cap space, possibly the first pick for Ingram, and some of the other talent still around like Noel/Saric/Covington maybe Embiid to help round out the team.

This is just one scenario but the point is they have assets, cap space, and draft picks to put the right team together however possible (compared to when this started its quite clearly better, worth it or not is questionable though). I think many expected them to use this off season to do that anyways but now it almost seems certain. Before we say this plan failed we need to see how the pieces they got are used moving forward. Conley(or maybe somehow schroeder/teague trade)/Butler/Ingram/Saric/Noel seems like a competitive young team to me and not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe it ends up perfectly (outside of already missing lottery luck) or maybe it all ends up failing but that will depend on what they do with the assets they have obtained which is now in the hands of the Colangelos.

Amazing that you used logic and there's nothing to debate.

beasted86
04-07-2016, 04:56 PM
lol we are polar opposites. Nets have no future to be excited for, literally they have nothing. Sixers are set up to succeed and maintain flexibility, Nets have no flexibility. Assets are important for bad teams i order to get better and the Sixers have most in the league while the Nets might have the least.

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I don't get excited going on a interview. I get excited when I start working and realize I really like the job or at least get my first big check.

For me when my team is losing I'm miserable and the only excitement is the two weeks or so before draft night. Losing is not fun no matter how many draft picks they get. The Sixers aren't in some good situation evidenced by their horrible attendance and constant internal conflict about direction both among fans and now, clearly their front office also.

Like I said, both are just plain stinking losers in huge markets who are losing the fans because there is no turn around in sight. At least that's how I see it.

So you say the Sixers are a much better franchise to follow because they got a jump start on their losing and drafting? **slow clap**

BallDontLie
04-07-2016, 05:14 PM
being bounced in the first round as a 7-8 seed for a decade isnt fun either. sorry we dont have Lebrons best friend on the team for him to come run to and help speed this along. One team is building toward something rther you like or agree with it and the other doesnt know what the **** their doing and their hands are tied when it comes to making it better.

Vee-Rex
04-07-2016, 05:16 PM
I feel like many people look too closely at one aspect of "the process" as the only way it could possibly work. We have seen a team acquire KG, Allen in one off season via trade. We have seen a team draft KD, Westbrook, Harden in consecutive years. We have seen Miami sign three stars to play together. All of these situations are different but the 76ers were attempting to build a team where they had the flexibility when an opportunity presents itself to do any of them. If they win the lottery last year for Towns it would have been perfect. Since they didn't now they have Okafor who they can try and trade (with other assets) for someone like Butler. If they could trade for Butler they still have plenty of cap space, possibly the first pick for Ingram, and some of the other talent still around like Noel/Saric/Covington maybe Embiid to help round out the team.

This is just one scenario but the point is they have assets, cap space, and draft picks to put the right team together however possible (compared to when this started its quite clearly better, worth it or not is questionable though). I think many expected them to use this off season to do that anyways but now it almost seems certain. Before we say this plan failed we need to see how the pieces they got are used moving forward. Conley(or maybe somehow schroeder/teague trade)/Butler/Ingram/Saric/Noel seems like a competitive young team to me and not out of the realm of possibility. Maybe it ends up perfectly (outside of already missing lottery luck) or maybe it all ends up failing but that will depend on what they do with the assets they have obtained which is now in the hands of the Colangelos.

No one (at least I don't think so) is saying that Hinkie's strategy was illogical. It makes sense, and it's POSSIBLE Philly may be able to use all those assets to put together a good team.

The process is just uglier than the others. Hinkie didn't put together an ordinary rebuilding process... he actually traded young talent to stockpile draft picks with the hope of acquiring a Kevin Durant-type player in the draft.

It's like if I go to a casino and win money, and instead of walking away and coming back later to build up on it, I decide that no winning is good until I hit a big jackpot. The problem with this approach is that it can take 5, 10, even 15 years and watching a franchise deliberately give away decent assets to stockpile more and lose for that long is gonna draw criticism. That's just the way it is.

You make a good point, but it doesn't mean people are going to like the process (because of that one aspect). Can you really blame them?

5ass
04-07-2016, 05:20 PM
so we should go pay vet slobs like Channing Frye who wont help?

How was Frye a bad signing? He came in and provided an excellent veteran presence, and gave them the shooting they wanted at the 4 spot. With slashers like Oladipo and Payton developing their shots a guy like Frye made sense. He opened up the floor for them. He also provided competition at the 4 spot so the young guys don't feel entitled to getting minutes. Made them have to earn their playing time. Hennigan also got a 2nd round pick out of the trade that sent him to Cleveland. He was never a bad signing. His contract was given while taking into consideration the rise in cap. Hennigan had the foresight to see he was not likely to be a burden. The signing was nothing but a positive.

mngopher35
04-07-2016, 05:42 PM
No one (at least I don't think so) is saying that Hinkie's strategy was illogical. It makes sense, and it's POSSIBLE Philly may be able to use all those assets to put together a good team.

The process is just uglier than the others. Hinkie didn't put together an ordinary rebuilding process... he actually traded young talent to stockpile draft picks with the hope of acquiring a Kevin Durant-type player in the draft.

It's like if I go to a casino and win money, and instead of walking away and coming back later to build up on it, I decide that no winning is good until I hit a big jackpot. The problem with this approach is that it can take 5, 10, even 15 years and watching a franchise deliberately give away decent assets to stockpile more and lose for that long is gonna draw criticism. That's just the way it is.

You make a good point, but it doesn't mean people are going to like the process (because of that one aspect). Can you really blame them?

I think it made sense for them to do it but feel a little uneasy about this mindset of attempting to be bad (or just not attempting to be good) so that part I get. Not sure if you have read through this thread or not but there are multiple posts where people question the current situation, say Philly was solely waiting to draft an elite level player etc etc. You can point out him trading young talent away but for the most part he won those trades IMO so it helped the asset collection stage without losing too much (whether used as a chance at a star or in trade is yet to be seen at least with the laker pick). I agree they were going to get criticism either way but some people in this thread have made it seem like they simply NEEDED to wait for an elite talent via the draft.

I was just pointing out that their goal from the start was to acquire top level talent through whichever way presented itself and the best way to do it is picks/cap/assets for trade not necessarily just sit around waiting for 7 plus years if they don't land that elite prospect via draft. The first few years the draft was the most likely and it didn't work but now they have assets to possibly complete a trade for one instead (while still having the picks/cap to go after more). The process isn't dependent on hitting the once in a lifetime player in the draft, it just gives a better chance to do so. It is dependent on having the correct collection of assets together before moving forward though so you don't get stuck in mediocrity like they were before this.

I don't blame anyone for not liking the process as I myself have mixed feelings (the mix being that I see the logic/value). I also have issues with the situation because Philly signed off on this plan knowing the expectations and then basically forced Hinkie out of the opportunity to see it through once the time was close to cash in.

RLundi
04-07-2016, 08:38 PM
How was Frye a bad signing? He came in and provided an excellent veteran presence, and gave them the shooting they wanted at the 4 spot. With slashers like Oladipo and Payton developing their shots a guy like Frye made sense. He opened up the floor for them. He also provided competition at the 4 spot so the young guys don't feel entitled to getting minutes. Made them have to earn their playing time. Hennigan also got a 2nd round pick out of the trade that sent him to Cleveland. He was never a bad signing. His contract was given while taking into consideration the rise in cap. Hennigan had the foresight to see he was not likely to be a burden. The signing was nothing but a positive.

See what I mean about trying to defend every single move the Magic make, even ones that are clearly bad? If that isn't homerism, what is?

Frye was a bad signing. No one else offered 4 years, no other team came close to $32M, and this came on the heels of Hennigan deciding to let a younger and far better Ryan Anderson go only to turn around and sign Frye a few seasons later. And how do you figure Henny had this foresight to consider the jump in cap space? Are you saying all GMs doled out deals that LOOKED bad at the time but would seem reasonable years later? Or did Henny only do that? It sounds like you're making excuses yet again.

5ass
04-07-2016, 08:54 PM
See what I mean about trying to defend every single move the Magic make, even ones that are clearly bad? If that isn't homerism, what is?

Frye was a bad signing. No one else offered 4 years, no other team came close to $32M, and this came on the heels of Hennigan deciding to let a younger and far better Ryan Anderson go only to turn around and sign Frye a few seasons later. And how do you figure Henny had this foresight to consider the jump in cap space? Are you saying all GMs doled out deals that LOOKED bad at the time but would seem reasonable years later? Or did Henny only do that? It sounds like you're making excuses yet again.
I'm sorry are you Frye's agent to know what he was offered?
We let Ryan Anderson go when we didn't have a core in place, therefore we didn't know what we needed. Ryan Anderson went to NO and wasn't able to live up to his contract until his final year anyway.
Frye's contract not only helped us get to the salary floor. He also provided salary in case we wanted to make a trade for a star.
There was talk of the cap rising before we signed Frye. Was Hennigan the only GM that made a signing with the rise in cap in mind? No, and I never said he was the only one, but he was one of them who did.
I'm really not seeing how the signing hurts us. Explain it to my homer mind. If you're strictly talking about the money we paid him, I really dont care about that. its not my money. So please tell me how it negatively affected the franchise, and do they outweigh the positives he brought (the ones I mentioned above)?

I'm definitely not making excuses, it seems you're being too critical again. I never said it was a great signing, but it wasn't bad. I just dont see how the trade hurt us in any way, but maybe you can explain.

PhillyFaninLA
04-08-2016, 04:38 AM
With a bit of luck the deals Hinkie made could land us this draft (if we are lucky and the Lakers end up with the 4th pick and we end up top three, worst case scenario if the Lakers don't end up top 3 we end up with picks 4 and 5, but with luck we end with a pick 1 - 3 and 4), we can leave this draft with.... (I think we could trade Okafer and land another top 10 pick)

possible:
From our pick either Simmons, Ingram, or Dunn
with luck Heidl from the Lakers pick
we end up with someone like Prince, Valentine, Barber, Richardson, Jackson, Ulis, Gbinijie, or even Beasley or Labissiere if they fall with the Heat and Thunders picks.

Lets say we end up with picks 3 (ours), pick 4 (Lakers) and miss out on Simmons and Ingram (personally I'm not excited about either guy but am most likely wrong), without a free agent signing this year (I think we are a year away from being able to be a real player in free agency, and Saric comes over our starting five would be

PG - Dunn
SG - Hield
SF - Saric
PF - Nole (or player acquired in a Okafer deal, maybe Sabonis, Bender, or Rabb)
C - Okafer (Nole, if an Okafer trade occurs, which I think is highly likely)


On the bench we have, Embiid (Brown said even if healthy he won't play big minutes next year), Grant, Convington, McConnell, Thompson, maybe Christian Wood turns into an offensive force off the bench

That is much more than a foundation.

If we don't get lucky we probably still end up with Dunn or Hiedl and don't have the Lakers pick this year, and use Okafer to try and land Jamal Murry (or Dejaunte if they fail that), meaning if we don't end up with picks 1 or 2, we can still end up with our PG and SG of the future and fill out a nice looking, potential filled legitimate NBA starting 5.

PhillyFaninLA
04-08-2016, 04:39 AM
Everything I posted in post 207 is a result of Hinkie....I don't think I trust Hinkie to build a team, and respect the view that he should have been given the chance this offseason, but what he did was necessary and important for us.

Aust
04-08-2016, 05:05 AM
Newly former Philadelphia 76ers general manager Sam Hinkie’s “Process” encompassed a number of tenets, but its basic philosophical underpinning was that the NBA draft is the best and cheapest way to build a contender, and that the NBA draft is a crapshoot. A roll of the dice.

Much of the MBA-speak gobbledygook in his instantly infamous 13-page letter of resignation is a defense of the strategy of sacrificing nearly everything—entire seasons, fan goodwill, league relationships—to acquire draft picks. The sheer quantity of upcoming picks the team has is what he points to in his letter as evidence that his plan has been working. Note that his analysis of the picks is limited to their relative value as assets, and not the players the 76ers will be able to select with them (emphasis his):


In the upcoming May draft lottery, we have what will likely be the best ever odds to get the #1 overall pick (nearly 30%), a roughly 50/50 chance at a top-2 pick (the highest ever), and a roughly 50/50 chance at two top-5 picks, which would be the best lottery night haul ever. That same bounce of a ping pong ball (almost a flip of a coin) will determine if we have three first round picks this year (unusual) or four (unprecedented). That’s this year. Or this quarter, if you will.

If you were to estimate the value of those firsts and the ones to follow, from this point forward we have essentially two NBA teams’ worth of first round pick value plus the third most second round picks in the league.

The most telling insight into how Hinkie thinks about picks isn’t to be found in this letter, though, but in something he said at a press conference last season:


We will not bat a thousand on every single draft pick. We also have them by the bushelful, in part, because of that. We don’t have any hubris that we will get them all right. We’re not certain that we have an enormous edge over anybody else. In some cases, we might not have an edge at all.

What at first blush looks like something insightful is actually a wonderful bit of sleight-of-hand. Hinkie admits that—at best—he’s only a slightly better than average drafter, yet uses this as an argument for The Process and his continued employment. Since the 76ers aren’t good at drafting, the logic goes, they need to lose a lot and trade away everything that isn’t bolted down in order to amass enough picks to ensure a few of them succeed. It’s pretty brazen: The Process hinges upon drafting future stars, yet Hinkie admits he can’t tell who these players are.

If the NBA draft were indeed a crapshoot, Hinkie’s strategy would make sense, and he wouldn’t be widely derided. But the NBA draft isn’t a crapshoot! We know this because, over time, some executives have clearly shown they’re better than others at drafting.

In San Antonio, RC Buford and Gregg Popovich have drafted Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Beno Udrih, Tiago Splitter, George Hill, DeJuan Blair, and traded for Kawhi Leonard on draft night. In Golden State, Larry Riley and Bob Myers and Jerry West have drafted Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes, Festus Ezeli, and Draymond Green. In Oklahoma City, Sam Presti drafted Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka, James Harden, Reggie Jackson, Steven Adams, and Cameron Payne.

This isn’t to say there’s no luck in the draft (there’s a lot), or that the above executives haven’t made poor draft picks (they have). But drafting—which relies heavily upon player evaluation, maybe the single most important skill for a general manager to have—is very clearly a skill. RC Buford and Sam Presti definitely have it, and David Kahn definitely doesn’t. Sam Hinkie admits that he doesn’t either.

Placing outsized importance on the draft as a vehicle to improve a team is a perfectly reasonable strategy. But Hinkie essentially attempted to game the draft while dismissing the most proven and best way of doing so—actually being better at spotting talent than rival executives.

The simple fact of the matter is that in three years Sam Hinkie showed that he was a poor talent evaluator. Nerlens Noel isn’t Steven Adams or Rudy Gobert, Michael Carter-Williams isn’t Giannis Antetokounmpo, Joel Embiid isn’t Aaron Gordon, Jahlil Okafor isn’t Kristaps Porzingis. Hinkie drafted over 10 players in the second round and tore through D-Leaguers and end-of-the-benchers via trade and ended up with just one (or maybe two) back-of-the-rotation players. One of the few times he did find something resembling real talent in the second round—K.J. McDaniels—Hinkie offered the player an insulting contract and soon traded him.

If poor talent evaluation were Hinkie’s only sin, he’d probably still have a job. But he was a poor talent evaluator whose master plan required one of the worst three-year stretches in NBA history, the alienation of 76ers fans, the destruction of working relationships with agents and other executives, and a dramatic drop-off in profits for the 76ers owners before it could start being carried out.

Hinkie amassed a ton of draft picks and constantly used the 76ers’ cap room to force his way into trades and acquire small assets. There’s an irony in the fact that, with the full quiver of picks that he’s rightfully proud of coming due in the 2016 draft, the smartest move for the 76ers is having anybody but Hinkie decide what to do with them.

http://deadspin.com/the-idea-behind-the-process-is-wrong-and-always-has-be-1769688492

Thought this was a pretty interesting deadspin article.

PhillyFaninLA
04-08-2016, 05:59 AM
bryan colengelo's roster moves

http://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/colanbr99x.html

This is what they new guy in charge has done

valade16
04-08-2016, 06:37 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-the-76ers-unraveled-sam-hinkie-193118470.html

Based on this article Colangelo sounds like a douche.

warfelg
04-08-2016, 08:14 AM
About the first 10-15 minutes of the Lowe Post Podcast is a very relevant. It's worth the listen:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=15156273

ewing
04-08-2016, 08:44 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-the-76ers-unraveled-sam-hinkie-193118470.html

Based on this article Colangelo sounds like a douche.


Why? B/c he thought Hinkie was a incompetent blowhard? he is

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 08:49 AM
No one (at least I don't think so) is saying that Hinkie's strategy was illogical. It makes sense, and it's POSSIBLE Philly may be able to use all those assets to put together a good team.

The process is just uglier than the others. Hinkie didn't put together an ordinary rebuilding process... he actually traded young talent to stockpile draft picks with the hope of acquiring a Kevin Durant-type player in the draft.

It's like if I go to a casino and win money, and instead of walking away and coming back later to build up on it, I decide that no winning is good until I hit a big jackpot. The problem with this approach is that it can take 5, 10, even 15 years and watching a franchise deliberately give away decent assets to stockpile more and lose for that long is gonna draw criticism. That's just the way it is.

You make a good point, but it doesn't mean people are going to like the process (because of that one aspect). Can you really blame them?

i mean what good young talent did he really trade? Do you think the Bucks could get the same deal we got for MCW right now? That answer is no. Holiday was flipped for Noel and believe it or not despite missing an entire season Noel has played more games between the two. So when you say Hinkie deliberately gave away good young assets you couldnt be more wrong.

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 09:27 AM
How exactly didn't we draft well? Even though I'm not in love with who we ended up with, all three guys were at one point or for most their seasons of CBB considered the #1 or #2 pick. It's not like we reached for some guy that had no business being picked at that spot.


You guys drafted 3 guys that would never see the floor their first year. 2 of those three have yet to play. Drafting a guy that won't play is a calculated risk, doing it multiple times borders on incompetence.

Noel has proven to be solid but I think it's reasonably debatable that he went too high for his limited skill set.

Now Embiid and Saric may very well turn out to be studs but when you look at the sum of the draft choices on Hinkies watch it is totally fair to say his drafting was questionable...at best.

warfelg
04-08-2016, 09:30 AM
You guys drafted 3 guys that would never see the floor their first year. 2 of those three have yet to play. Drafting a guy that won't play is a calculated risk, doing it multiple times borders on incompetence.

Noel has proven to be solid but I think it's reasonably debatable that he went too high.

Now Embiid and Saric may very turn out to be studs but when you look at the sum of the draft choices on Hinkies watch it is totally fair to say his drafting was questionable...at best.

This is just flat out laughable.

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 09:32 AM
wait Noel was the consensus #1 pick before he got hurt and now going at 6 was too high? lol wow. Please enlighten me on who went in the top 5 that year....

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 09:44 AM
wait Noel was the consensus #1 pick before he got hurt and now going at 6 was too high? lol wow. Please enlighten me on who went in the top 5 that year....


AND? Consensus top pick does not = the right pick. Darko was consensus top 3 pick for Detroit.

Although that draft class was pretty horrible had they done their homework they could've taken someone like Yannis who had a much higher upside and was ready to play day 1.

CJ McCollum, Schroder, Gobert....all available.

Hindsight is 20/20 but when your entire strategy is throwing games for picks isn't it kindof essential that you draft extraordinarily well?

ewing
04-08-2016, 09:49 AM
the thing with Hinkie is he is a con artist. he pretends portions of his job don't exist. He doesn't lie about it, he just pretends they don't exist. then if he makes a mistake doing the things he actually does he excuses himself b/c it was theoretically the right move in his opinion.

ewing
04-08-2016, 09:51 AM
AND? Consensus top pick does not = the right pick. Darko was consensus top 3 pick for Detroit.

Although that draft class was pretty horrible had they done their homework they could've taken someone like Yannis who had a much higher upside and was ready to play day 1.

CJ McCollum, Schroder, Gobert....all available.

Hindsight is 20/20 but when your entire strategy is throwing games for picks isn't it kindof essential that you draft extraordinarily well?


Next your going to tell me Kwame Brown was the wrong pick :facepalm:

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 09:55 AM
Next your going to tell me Kwame Brown was the wrong pick :facepalm:

Lol.

You feel me

warfelg
04-08-2016, 10:17 AM
AND? Consensus top pick does not = the right pick. Darko was consensus top 3 pick for Detroit.

Although that draft class was pretty horrible had they done their homework they could've taken someone like Yannis who had a much higher upside and was ready to play day 1.

CJ McCollum, Schroder, Gobert....all available.

Hindsight is 20/20 but when your entire strategy is throwing games for picks isn't it kindof essential that you draft extraordinarily well?

lol Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, Cody Zeller were all picked ahead of Noel that year. KCP, Burke, MCW, Adams, Olynyk were all behind him that year. I bet if you redrafted, Noel would still be at 6, with McCollum, Giannis, maybe Schorder passing him, Oladipo staying in the top 5.

But then again you and ewing have been trolling the sixers for a long time now so I expect nothing different.

beasted86
04-08-2016, 10:30 AM
I think at the end of the day Sixers fans just want to believe the guy they've been putting their faith in hasn't been conning them this entire time and spent the past 3 years earning a worse record as time goes by.

I mean I look at a team like the Sixers just maybe, maybe if they play the next couple drafts right 3 years from now they could put together a group of solid young players like the Timberwolves.

The truly sad part is we are talking about them MAYBE becoming a 27 win team 6-7 years from their last playoff appearance. This is actually what these Philly fans aspire to be and will be happy to be.

Damn I'm royally spoiled by the Miami HEAT.

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 10:33 AM
lol Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, Cody Zeller were all picked ahead of Noel that year. KCP, Burke, MCW, Adams, Olynyk were all behind him that year. I bet if you redrafted, Noel would still be at 6, with McCollum, Giannis, maybe Schorder passing him, Oladipo staying in the top 5.

But then again you and ewing have been trolling the sixers for a long time now so I expect nothing different.


You still want to defend him and his "strategy." That's cool, I get it. Hope it works out for you guys.

What can't be debated is he made the team a laughingstock, almost singlehandedly made the NBA have to reform the draft because of his blatant tanking shenanigans, and more than likely will never be entrusted to run a NBA franchise again.

ewing
04-08-2016, 10:40 AM
lol Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, Cody Zeller were all picked ahead of Noel that year. KCP, Burke, MCW, Adams, Olynyk were all behind him that year. I bet if you redrafted, Noel would still be at 6, with McCollum, Giannis, maybe Schorder passing him, Oladipo staying in the top 5.

But then again you and ewing have been trolling the sixers for a long time now so I expect nothing different.


i am not trolling you. I honestly think if RC Buford spent the last 3 years trying to lose games, acquire picks, search the D league for hidden talent he'd have found a lot more. I also think Hinkie has a giant ego and is unlikable. That makes him fun to make fun of. Tony does have a point though. You can defend any pick by saying while there was a rational behind it (no team picks names out of a hat). some teams are still better at picking then others.

beasted86
04-08-2016, 10:42 AM
i am not trolling you. I honestly think if RC Buford spent the last 3 years trying to lose games, acquire picks, search the D league for hidden talent he'd have found a lot more. I also think Hinkie has a giant ego and is unlikable. That makes him fun to make fun of.

Nailed it

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 10:48 AM
lol Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, Cody Zeller were all picked ahead of Noel that year. KCP, Burke, MCW, Adams, Olynyk were all behind him that year. I bet if you redrafted, Noel would still be at 6, with McCollum, Giannis, maybe Schorder passing him, Oladipo staying in the top 5.

But then again you and ewing have been trolling the sixers for a long time now so I expect nothing different.


Zach Lowe, ESPN.com: Hinkie drafted three players he knew would not contribute for at least one season; one of those, Joel Embiid, lost a second season; four of his lottery picks play either power forward or center; and there is no evidence yet that he drafted anyone who wildly outperformed expectations for their draft slot, unless you include Michael-Carter Williams in his rookie season.

The Sixers also could have sprinkled in a couple of veteran free agents to raise the cultural bar -- and the quality of play -- without inflating the win total too much.

---------------------------------------------

Basically the same thing I was saying, unless this guy is trolling too...

warfelg
04-08-2016, 10:52 AM
Zach Lowe, ESPN.com: Hinkie drafted three players he knew would not contribute for at least one season; one of those, Joel Embiid, lost a second season; four of his lottery picks play either power forward or center; and there is no evidence yet that he drafted anyone who wildly outperformed expectations for their draft slot, unless you include Michael-Carter Williams in his rookie season.

The Sixers also could have sprinkled in a couple of veteran free agents to raise the cultural bar -- and the quality of play -- without inflating the win total too much.

---------------------------------------------

Basically the same thing I was saying, unless this guy is trolling too...

LOL no it's not. You said 6 might have been too high for Noel. GTFO.

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 10:55 AM
AND? Consensus top pick does not = the right pick. Darko was consensus top 3 pick for Detroit.

Although that draft class was pretty horrible had they done their homework they could've taken someone like Yannis who had a much higher upside and was ready to play day 1.

CJ McCollum, Schroder, Gobert....all available.

Hindsight is 20/20 but when your entire strategy is throwing games for picks isn't it kindof essential that you draft extraordinarily well?

you do realize that our own pick was #11 right? We had NO pick Noel knowing we could draft MCW. you are way off base as usual.

warfelg
04-08-2016, 11:00 AM
i am not trolling you. I honestly think if RC Buford spent the last 3 years trying to lose games, acquire picks, search the D league for hidden talent he'd have found a lot more. I also think Hinkie has a giant ego and is unlikable. That makes him fun to make fun of. Tony does have a point though. You can defend any pick by saying while there was a rational behind it (no team picks names out of a hat). some teams are still better at picking then others.

How do you know Hinkie didn't find talent?

Noel's DBPM is on par with other DPOY winners for his first two years.
Okafor is a beast in the paint and can score when he wants.
Saric was a guy a lot of scouts liked but fell because of staying in Europe.
Embiid was going to be the first pick in the draft until the bone issue came up, and plenty of people have defended it as the right pick.
Grant's a player and found him in the 2nd.
He saw something in MCW, and unloaded him for the LAL pick before **** hit the fan, and no way Mil could get a first for MCW right now.
Covington was a DL find.
KJ was a good pick, and because of a weird contract (and an obnoxious mother) was traded, but we found a rotational big with the pick we got back.

Hinkie did nothing but take the consensus BPA early on in the drafts. Do I wish things fell differently? Sure. I kinda wished that LAL took Okafor so we ended up with Russell instead, or that we took a chance on the ceiling of KP rather than the floor of Okafor. Doesn't mean that Okafor is terrible. It's still a great pick because he has a talent for playing in the post that few NBA C's have anymore.

And I know the funny thing about all of this is:
If we trade any of these guys and they become decent, the narrative will be how we gave up on a good talent rather than giving Hinkie the credit for making a good pick at the time.

ewing
04-08-2016, 11:12 AM
How do you know Hinkie didn't find talent?

Noel's DBPM is on par with other DPOY winners for his first two years.
Okafor is a beast in the paint and can score when he wants.
Saric was a guy a lot of scouts liked but fell because of staying in Europe.
Embiid was going to be the first pick in the draft until the bone issue came up, and plenty of people have defended it as the right pick.
Grant's a player and found him in the 2nd.
He saw something in MCW, and unloaded him for the LAL pick before **** hit the fan, and no way Mil could get a first for MCW right now.
Covington was a DL find.
KJ was a good pick, and because of a weird contract (and an obnoxious mother) was traded, but we found a rotational big with the pick we got back.

Hinkie did nothing but take the consensus BPA early on in the drafts. Do I wish things fell differently? Sure. I kinda wished that LAL took Okafor so we ended up with Russell instead, or that we took a chance on the ceiling of KP rather than the floor of Okafor. Doesn't mean that Okafor is terrible. It's still a great pick because he has a talent for playing in the post that few NBA C's have anymore.

And I know the funny thing about all of this is:
If we trade any of these guys and they become decent, the narrative will be how we gave up on a good talent rather than giving Hinkie the credit for making a good pick at the time.


I never said he didn't find any talent. I like Oka. the problem is you seem worship this guy. Its the same as a couple years ago where some posters did not think you could root against LeBron James. You were not only required to see him as a great player, he was above criticism, and you had to be a fan. Also, if you do trade one of those guys early and he pans out IMO hinkie deserve some blame for glutting the roster with centers. Hinkie acquired picks and provided financial flexibility. Both important jobs, he failed in other areas.

warfelg
04-08-2016, 11:18 AM
I never said he didn't find any talent. I like Oka. the problem is you seem worship this guy. Its the same as a couple years ago where some posters did not think you could root against LeBron James. You were not only required to see him as a great player, he was above criticism, and you had to be a fan.

I don't worship they guy. But he's a good GM who made a lot of good moves who didn't get to see the end of it. He's no where near as bad as you are making him out to be.

I mean how many other teams have the ability to trade a very good rookie like Okafor and not be overly hurt by it? How many teams have 3, possibly 4 picks in this draft? How many have possibly 2 in the following year? How many GMs are able to get 2 pick swaps and a potential unprotected 1st along with a 2nd year developing player for basically nothing? How many GMs can pick a guy they don't want, then flip him for a guy two picks later plus the first that team originally traded away?

I mean if you want to talk about the contracts thing, I'm fine with that. I'm not a fan of they way he played FA like that.

But to say things like "he's a prick" and "scam artist" are way out of line if you ask me.

ewing
04-08-2016, 11:39 AM
I don't worship they guy. But he's a good GM who made a lot of good moves who didn't get to see the end of it. He's no where near as bad as you are making him out to be.

I mean how many other teams have the ability to trade a very good rookie like Okafor and not be overly hurt by it? How many teams have 3, possibly 4 picks in this draft? How many have possibly 2 in the following year? How many GMs are able to get 2 pick swaps and a potential unprotected 1st along with a 2nd year developing player for basically nothing? How many GMs can pick a guy they don't want, then flip him for a guy two picks later plus the first that team originally traded away?

I mean if you want to talk about the contracts thing, I'm fine with that. I'm not a fan of they way he played FA like that.

But to say things like "he's a prick" and "scam artist" are way out of line if you ask me.



You read his letter, right? He is clearly a prick. Also, I think while he did do the things you mentioned he also completely ignored other areas of his job and then justified it by saying things like "i'm an unconventional thinker" and casting himself as a visionary. No you aren't. You just decided to eliminate one the harder parts of your job (juggling the need for both a long and short term vision for your team). If i didn't do 50% of my work and kicked *** at the other 50% i'd get fired too.

warfelg
04-08-2016, 11:49 AM
Thing is, what Hinkie wrote in that letter isn't anything different than what Sixers fans said, without us knowing what he was thinking.

ewing
04-08-2016, 11:52 AM
Thing is, what Hinkie wrote in that letter isn't anything different than what Sixers fans said, without us knowing what he was thinking.

you going around comparing yourself to Warren Buffet and write 13 page resignation letters?

warfelg
04-08-2016, 11:55 AM
Also what did he ignore with his job? Just because he had cap space doesn't mean he has to go our and blow all of by signing average players to max contracts.

He's done all parts of his job. He signed Covington as a FA. He signed Marshall as a FA. He traded for ways to improve this team by getting picks, Stauskis, Saric.

Just because it didn't all pay off in the first year doesn't mean he did 50% of his job and is a prick.

ewing
04-08-2016, 11:58 AM
Also what did he ignore with his job? Just because he had cap space doesn't mean he has to go our and blow all of by signing average players to max contracts.

He's done all parts of his job. He signed Covington as a FA. He signed Marshall as a FA. He traded for ways to improve this team by getting picks, Stauskis, Saric.

Just because it didn't all pay off in the first year doesn't mean he did 50% of his job and is a prick.

you're warped

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 12:08 PM
I don't see how anyone that read that letter can defend this man.

He comes across as grandiose and borderline delusional.

It's also on record that he had very bad relations with players, agents, and fellow gm's becuase of his pompous attitude.

At best he committed to a bold strategy that may or may not pan out eventually.

At worst he's a total a__h ole that carried himself like the smartest guy in the room and gave the league a black eye.

Either way a lot of people, outside of a select brainwashed faithful, are breathing a sigh of relief that he is gone.

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 12:16 PM
what players did he have a bad relationship with? thats news to me. Fellow GM's hated him bcuz he raped them in deals, im sure Vlade's *** is still sore right now from our trade.

you do realize that season ticket holders revolted against this move and started cancelling next years order and the team had to start reaching out to save it. but yea only a select few who were brainwashed cared. the brainwashed ones are the fans who believe in anything Phil has done in NY

beasted86
04-08-2016, 12:18 PM
The letter is cringe-worthy.

Epic way to commit career suicide.

Read on those who have an hour to waste:
http://www.crossingbroad.com/2016/04/here-is-the-entire-sam-hinkie-manifesto.html

Tony_Starks
04-08-2016, 12:21 PM
what players did he have a bad relationship with? thats news to me. Fellow GM's hated him bcuz he raped them in deals, im sure Vlade's *** is still sore right now from our trade.

you do realize that season ticket holders revolted against this move and started cancelling next years order and the team had to start reaching out to save it. but yea only a select few who were brainwashed cared. the brainwashed ones are the fans who believe in anything Phil has done in NY


elburne, ESPN.com: Communication, at every level. With the players on his team, the rest of the league, the fans and the media. He's incredible intellectually, with bold ideas, but you have to translate those ideas to the people affected by them.

Marc Stein, ESPN.com: Hinkie hurt himself immeasurably through his reluctance to communicate, not only with the outside world but also players/coaches/executives within the Sixers' own walls. This is a league of humans. People and relationships are huge.

I'm saying this not as a haughty media member demanding access; you've got to speak to your fan base when you're running a team and at least try to make them feel like they can understand the plan or The Process or whatever you want to call it.

We're obviously talking about a smart guy with a bold strategy who might end up looking a lot smarter if some of these picks and recent draftees develop. But you can't shut the world out and, more importantly, you most certainly can't build a successful organizational culture that way.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15154652/went-wrong-lies-ahead-sam-hinkie-philadelphia-76ers

beasted86
04-08-2016, 12:27 PM
what players did he have a bad relationship with? thats news to me. Fellow GM's hated him bcuz he raped them in deals, im sure Vlade's *** is still sore right now from our trade.

you do realize that season ticket holders revolted against this move and started cancelling next years order and the team had to start reaching out to save it. but yea only a select few who were brainwashed cared. the brainwashed ones are the fans who believe in anything Phil has done in NY

Hahahahahaha. Sorry for the troll laugh, but you literally made me LOL.

It's hilarious you talk about season ticket holders of a team with the worst attendance in the NBA.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2015/04/16/nba-sets-all-time-attendance-record-bulls-and-cavaliers-lead-the-way/#521e2f6c3e7f

And it dates back to last season also
http://hoopshabit.com/2015/07/24/tree-falls-philadelphia-76ers-game-make-sound/

The Sixers have no fans in attendance until they stop tanking and put a respectable product on the floor. Started canceling? They've BEEN canceling them.

Furthermore, Hinkie quit.

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 12:44 PM
they actually saw one of the biggest season tix increases in the league for this season....

notice whenever the Sixers come up its the same few people spewing the same noise every single time.

ewing
04-08-2016, 01:30 PM
they actually saw one of the biggest season tix increases in the league for this season....

notice whenever the Sixers come up its the same few people spewing the same noise every single time.

yeah, you guys really are annoying

Vinylman
04-08-2016, 01:46 PM
I have more respect than ever for Hinkie after reading that letter...

best of luck to him in the future...

warfelg
04-08-2016, 02:00 PM
I have more respect than ever for Hinkie after reading that letter...

best of luck to him in the future...

Nah man, he's just a prick scam artist whole a pretentious know it all, didn't you know?

BallDontLie
04-08-2016, 02:12 PM
Hinkie ruined the NBA by coming in last place one time in 3 years.

RLundi
04-08-2016, 02:43 PM
I'm sorry are you Frye's agent to know what he was offered?
We let Ryan Anderson go when we didn't have a core in place, therefore we didn't know what we needed. Ryan Anderson went to NO and wasn't able to live up to his contract until his final year anyway.
Frye's contract not only helped us get to the salary floor. He also provided salary in case we wanted to make a trade for a star.
There was talk of the cap rising before we signed Frye. Was Hennigan the only GM that made a signing with the rise in cap in mind? No, and I never said he was the only one, but he was one of them who did.
I'm really not seeing how the signing hurts us. Explain it to my homer mind. If you're strictly talking about the money we paid him, I really dont care about that. its not my money. So please tell me how it negatively affected the franchise, and do they outweigh the positives he brought (the ones I mentioned above)?

I'm definitely not making excuses, it seems you're being too critical again. I never said it was a great signing, but it wasn't bad. I just dont see how the trade hurt us in any way, but maybe you can explain.

Are you serious? That's your argument, that you're not paying it? So what makes a contract bad then if it isn't the amount of money paid in exchange for lack of production??? You asked how was the contract bad? BECAUSE OF THE DOLLAR AMOUNT, simple as that. Who cares who's paying it?? It doesn't make it better. Does it matter that some of the worst contracts in sports weren't paid by the fans? What a terrible and irrelevant point to make.

Your positives were complete bull****. You talk about a veteran presence that did NOTHING for the franchise. You mention a worthless second-round pick. Then you bring up competition for a PF that never was. Literally complete and utter and clear bull**** and homerism at its finest.

aman_13
04-08-2016, 03:28 PM
lol this guy is gonna defend Hinkie to the death.

All he did was tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, draft ****** player after ****** player. He has a lot of unrealized assets that amount to nothing. All you have is a lot of alienated fans. If Hinkie had any more time, it would equate to more losses. Players would rather sign with Toronto at this point.

You acting like Toronto is not an attractive destination. Toronto has the fourth largest market in the NBA and is a world class city. I'm sure most players rather play in Toronto than Philly even if they were good.

aman_13
04-08-2016, 03:41 PM
I can see the Sixers winning 20 games next yr. I see lots of potential.