PDA

View Full Version : Can a good coach make any combination of all-star players fit/buy in?



beasted86
04-02-2016, 01:52 PM
Recently people seem to claim certain stars just can't coexist when the team falls short.

We've heard it with OKC that Durant and Westbrook don't fit, and Jackson ran for the door. With the Rockets that Harden and Dwight don't know how to play off each other and Howard would welcome a trade, Parsons seemed to leave the Rockets high and dry. It's possibly Aldridge left Portland because of conflict with Lilliard which was speculated in the media.

Now 2 years into LeBron's return to Cleveland and there is very frequent discussion about the only solution to make things work is to trade one of Irving or Love or even both. That these guys just can't fit.

On the flip side, the Celtics big 3 went together like they were drafted together, and you only heard about Allen/Rondo tension after one was gone. In Miami they got off to a rough start, but eventually Spo/Riley got a system in place and guys bought in and they had success. Popovich seemed to have no problem relegating Aldridge to second option and West to a bench player.

So I guess the real question I'm asking is:
Will a good coach always be able to create a system that fits the star players so they will fit together?

warfelg
04-02-2016, 02:04 PM
I think it depends.

You got your "good coaches" like Jackson who can manage the personalities and keep guys happy by managing egos.

Then you got the "good coaches" like Spols and Kerr, who just see what players really excel at and work around putting those parts complement each other.

Lil Rhody
04-02-2016, 05:29 PM
I can't wait for Stevens to get a real star or two on. Working magic with bench guys and low tier starters.

beasted86
04-02-2016, 06:32 PM
I can't wait for Stevens to get a real star or two on. Working magic with bench guys and low tier starters.
I mean he's a good coach but it's just been 3 years.

D-Leethal
04-02-2016, 06:36 PM
If they get their zen on properly.

beasted86
04-02-2016, 06:42 PM
I think it depends.

You got your "good coaches" like Jackson who can manage the personalities and keep guys happy by managing egos.

Then you got the "good coaches" like Spols and Kerr, who just see what players really excel at and work around putting those parts complement each other.
So does that mean if I'm pretending to be the Kings general manager I can trade Gay plus picks for Carmelo and supposedly find a good coach to create a system for Rondo/Anthony/Cousins? Or are some players impossible to mesh?

warfelg
04-02-2016, 06:51 PM
So does that mean if I'm pretending to be the Kings general manager I can trade Gay plus picks for Carmelo and supposedly find a good coach to create a system for Rondo/Anthony/Cousins? Or are some players impossible to mesh?

I think that would take the type of coach that can manage egos. Not sure they end up winning it all, but he can get them competing.

Then again, that team might need to score 140 a night thanks to the lack of defense.

NYKalltheway
04-03-2016, 07:47 AM
The correct answer is yes.

McAllen Tx
04-03-2016, 08:04 AM
Any combination of players?

Not even the Zen Master could keep Kobe & Shaq together. Doubt he couldve kept AI & Stackhouse together or Mourning & Johnson.

Theres some combos that not even their mommas could make them play together.

Marbury & KG also come to mind.

JasonJohnHorn
04-03-2016, 08:45 AM
I think there will always be players who won't listen, but certain coaches are certainly better than most.

I think first and foremost, players respect coaches who have won. I think Riley, P-Jax, and Pop would have no issue getting 99% of players to listen to them (Dwight Howard is that 1 in a 100 player). And I think Chuck Daly was great at that as well.


Red was obviously a pimp. But he only every worked with one group of guys. Still, most players would listen to a coach with 9 rings.

So I guess the answer is no, because even though guys like Daly and P-Jax could get guys likes Rodman on board, and even though Riley has been notorious for getting guys to change their fitness regiment and buy into the team, and even though Pop and Red have seen long stretched of amazing success, I do think each of them would have trouble with a player like Dwight, just because some players have too much ego, and not enough foresight.

prodigy
04-06-2016, 04:27 AM
Recently people seem to claim certain stars just can't coexist when the team falls short.

We've heard it with OKC that Durant and Westbrook don't fit, and Jackson ran for the door. With the Rockets that Harden and Dwight don't know how to play off each other and Howard would welcome a trade, Parsons seemed to leave the Rockets high and dry. It's possibly Aldridge left Portland because of conflict with Lilliard which was speculated in the media.

Now 2 years into LeBron's return to Cleveland and there is very frequent discussion about the only solution to make things work is to trade one of Irving or Love or even both. That these guys just can't fit.

On the flip side, the Celtics big 3 went together like they were drafted together, and you only heard about Allen/Rondo tension after one was gone. In Miami they got off to a rough start, but eventually Spo/Riley got a system in place and guys bought in and they had success. Popovich seemed to have no problem relegating Aldridge to second option and West to a bench player.

So I guess the real question I'm asking is:
Will a good coach always be able to create a system that fits the star players so they will fit together?

I believe coaches are very overrated. The PLAYERS have to buy into each other. a coach, owner, GM etc... cannot make them.

Celtics players were all towards the back end of careers so they were very willing to do whatever it took to win. After they won a title you kinda seen them fade apart. mostly Ray Allen.

In Cleveland's case you have 1 legend and 2 great players. all want to get there's. Love came over in a trade and Irving was drafted. They did not all agree to come together. They didn't pick each other.

But Cleveland is still a great team and will most likely be back in the finals. So it has worked.

PhillyFaninLA
04-06-2016, 05:47 AM
No, you can only manage so much...if you have multiple me first guys than you won't ever have the presence on the floor you need. A good coach still needs the right mix at the NBA level, at the college level a good coach can manage the personalities because they are more controllable.

JasonJohnHorn
04-06-2016, 08:55 AM
The correct answer is yes.

We know that the correct answer is no, because any number of teams have kept a coach and traded an all-star player that wasn't working in the system, or fired a HOF coach that couldn't get guys to buy in.

JasonJohnHorn
04-06-2016, 09:01 AM
Any combination of players?

Not even the Zen Master could keep Kobe & Shaq together. Doubt he couldve kept AI & Stackhouse together or Mourning & Johnson.

Theres some combos that not even their mommas could make them play together.

Marbury & KG also come to mind.

The thing is, he did keep Kobe and Shaq together. And then won more games than they ought to have that last year. Shaq/Kobe didn't split up until PJax left. Though even he said Kobe was uncoachable (before going onto coach him again).


With LJ and Mourning, I think a good coach could have made that work, but with LJ's back issues, the point would have been moot. If you have a coach like PJax, Riley, or Daly, who were proven winner, come in, those guys would listen. It's like getting life lessons from a legend.

I think with Marbury, any good coach would be able to identify the fact that he is not a leader and not capable of pushing a team to a championship and would have traded him for a talent that better fit the system. Even a great coach knows there is no point in trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

But that said, I agree. No coach can make any combination of players work together. I mean, look at SVG. Even when he was taking a team (Orlando) with extremely limited potential to the finals, you STILL had Howard publicly complaining that he wasn't getting enough touches, even as his team was winning!

NYKalltheway
04-06-2016, 11:02 AM
We know that the correct answer is no, because any number of teams have kept a coach and traded an all-star player that wasn't working in the system, or fired a HOF coach that couldn't get guys to buy in.

We've also seen the Spurs have Robinson and Duncan coexist, both being centers. It's so odd to the US fanbase, that they've branded Duncan as a PF just because a coach managed to get players to coexist. Add Ginobili who came as an elite international superstar, or Scola who came as a superstar from overseas.

Then look back at Pat Riley and the Lakers in the 80s.
Red Auerbach in the 60s with the Celtics. Fitch and later on KC Jones with the same franchise.

The answer is obviously yes. The problem is that the NBA refuses to let the coach be the focal point of a team. They have to earn it and it's x500 as hard as a great player becoming a superstar. The HC positions are usually given to inept at coaching former players, or former players who know the game but can't really become great coaches (eg Jason Kidd and that kind of ex-players). Phil Jackson has shown that he is good at keeping a balance, but he's extremely overrated in general. You can give him credit for being the person who tamed Michael Jordan and made him buy into the whole team thing.

What we have is a conflict of opinion on what makes a good coach, well, good. They are extremely rare in today's game. They were more common in the 60s till the mid 80s. Since then, you just had to follow your team's superstar's mood. It's definitely harder for an NBA coach to get this out of his players, since the NBA has cultivated this mentality in its players that they're the only thing that matters in the game.

I'm not gonna start piling up the overseas examples of this sort of coaching. I'll just say that it's the norm, since most good teams have more than 4-5 star/superstar level players and this sort of thing is pretty much basic job description material.

KnicksorBust
04-06-2016, 11:52 AM
Pop is an incredible coach but I give Duncan almost as much credit as him when it comes to creating an environment where players can fit together. He's one of the best team players in NBA History. He's the anti-look at me. The anti-Arenas player. Similar to Red Auerbach with Bill Russell. Riley and Phil Jackson are the kings of ego management. MJ/Magic/KAJ/Shaq/Kobe. There is your list of headcase stars who still accomplished incredible things and they were only coached by 2 guys. You could even throw Rodman and Artest on there for kicks.

JasonJohnHorn
04-07-2016, 12:19 AM
Pop is an incredible coach but I give Duncan almost as much credit as him when it comes to creating an environment where players can fit together. He's one of the best team players in NBA History. He's the anti-look at me. The anti-Arenas player. Similar to Red Auerbach with Bill Russell. Riley and Phil Jackson are the kings of ego management. MJ/Magic/KAJ/Shaq/Kobe. There is your list of headcase stars who still accomplished incredible things and they were only coached by 2 guys. You could even throw Rodman and Artest on there for kicks.

I didn't find PJax did a great job with MWP: I felt like he did that on his own. Rodman, though... he was going off the rails in Detroit after Daly left. Showing up to the palace in the early hours of the morning with a gun in his truck. WTF?!?!?! PJax got him on track.

PJax also did a great job managing Shaq and Kobe, but he never had to do much with Jordan. I think it was clear Jordan was the ring leader there. PJax was a great development guy, and help boost the other players up, but Jordan didn't need management.

As for Riley.... I don't feel like he needed to do much management in LAL. That core had already proven they could win. They just needed a coach that would let the players do their thing and Riley got credit for it. If anything, judging from the Jerry West autobiography, Riley p!$$ed a lot of the players off because of HIS ego. They thought he was taking credit for the wins they were earning, and when they one that banned in 87, he couldn't let it go and went on about repeating, and then did the same in 88 promising a 3-pete. That put a lot of players off from what I heard. They wanted to celebrate and soak in their glory, and he was already boasting about building his resume.


He called down after he left and picked up a job in NY where he really proved himself. But in LA he was the ego that needed to be managed.