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View Full Version : Does Kyrie make the Cavs better?



JasonJohnHorn
03-30-2016, 10:21 AM
Some have pointed to the Cavs coaching staff, but I think there is a legit question as to whether Kyrie is ideal for this team.


The Cav's winning percentage is only slightly higher with Kyrie than without (70% to 71%), but one would assume that when running a team with a back-up point guard, and then replacing that back-up with an All-Star point guard, that the team should improve considerably, no?


The Cavs were on pace for 60 win at the time of Blatt's firing, but now will likely be unable to secure that number, and though the East has improved, it has not improved so much that a team with three All-Star calibre players, one of them an MVP, shouldn't be able to pull out 60 wins with the supporting cast that the Cavs have.

Kyrie is a great talent, but he is a score-first point guards, and while he makes plays, he is not a play-maker in the way that Wade was, or in the way that CP3 is. His mentality seems to be to find a way to score, and then, if it should so happen, pass the ball to somebody else. This is something that some teams need. The 76ers, for instance, would be greatly improved with a player like that. However, the Cavs have shooters, like Love and Smith, and Frye, and Delladova. These guys are great shooters.

Is this team better with Kyrie? Or, were the Cavs to replace Kyrie with a starting -calibre point guard, like say Mike Conley, or a younger Jose Calderon, would they be playing better than they currently are? Or would fellow All-Stars, like Teague or Lowry, be a better fit?

What are your thoughts, and which point guards would be a better fit? Or is Kyrie the best fit possible?

warfelg
03-30-2016, 10:49 AM
IMO a PG like Conley, or maybe a guy that's a bit of a combo guard and a shooter. You just need someone you trust to get the ball down the court, play solid defense, then get the ball off to LeBron, and be able to hit jumpers.

I think the problem is Kyrie should be more like the 3rd option behind LeBron, then Love working his shooting off LeBrons driving, then Kyrie as a trail cutter. But Kyrie still sees himself as the primary option in the offense. And he's not.

Hawkeye15
03-30-2016, 10:50 AM
Does he make the Cavs better? Yes. Is he the ideal PG for their roster as constructed? No

Scoots
03-30-2016, 11:17 AM
Remember how Kyrie would have made the difference in the finals last year? I think had Kyrie played the series would have been over faster. Irving is an elite offensive player, but he doesn't move the ball enough, he plays bad defense that gets his teammates in trouble covering, and he has regular mental lapses.

He CAN be good on D, and he CAN move the ball ... so Cavs fans will point at examples of him doing so, but when the ball is in his hands in the second half of close games, more often than not he'll fall back on what he knows works. Kyrie hero-ball and the team play gets worse.

When LeBron was with a prime Wade and Bosh and old Allen and old Battier he moved the ball beautifully because he knew he'd get it back if he had the better shot. With the Cavs there are 2 players who are good passers who are too slow to move the ball and who are too concerned with their shot and it's breaking the system down and not maximizing LeBron's talents.

DboneG
03-30-2016, 11:28 AM
Yes, Kyrie makes the Cavs better. Cavs need a score-first point guard. Teams would love to have a score first point guard like Kyrie! That can actually, score! The Cavs just have to rein him in a bit. He's a race horse...Let him run! Just have to rein him just in a bit. Cavs will win it all this season.

Kyrie vs Steph.


We all know Steph can shoot, running off picks and such. But, can Steph play one-on-one defense? Not well. How well can Steph shoot, when he's getting broke down on the other end?
We saw that when Damian Lillard busted 51 against Steph. Where was Steph? Busy trying to defend his honor...shooting, forgot about the team concept..played 26min. While Lillard bust his azz on the other end! Can Kyrie do this?! Fo Sho!


LeBron can't wait for Draymond Green or Andre Iguodala thinking they can guard him. Bron Bron had zero help last year. And still, almost pulled it off. LeBron should have won the MVP in last years Finals.

beasted86
03-30-2016, 11:59 AM
He helps the Cavs but doesn't put them over the top at all. He and Love need to spend the entire summer practicing on pick and roll defense.

Love is probably a lost cause because of age and lateral quickness, but Kyrie might be able to improve.

Chronz
03-30-2016, 12:12 PM
He's overrated but of course he makes them better. And tbh, dudes not back to last years form yet either, I just wish he would recognize it and stop looking solely for his own shot.

It's funny, Blake was a PF who tried to survey the floor too much when his team needed him to be aggressive and attack, whereas Kyrie is a PG who needs to slow down and actually look for teammates. I think the 2 were meant for each other, in another universe where the clippers have a competent management(or better luck) they never trade Kyrie away.

Nikeman
03-30-2016, 12:19 PM
He makes them better, but he's not utilizing himself correctly, nor is any "coach" helping that team. Kind of like Westbrook has matured these past couple seasons, Kyrie needs to do the same. Westbrook still plays wild sometimes, but he's now actively looking to pass and it seems he enjoys setting his teammates up as much as scoring himself, and that's when the Thunder thrive. I cannot tell you the amount of times I've seen Westy drive and set up Ibaka, Adams or Kanter up for easy dunks or lay-ups. It seems every basket Kanter/Adams score are due to Westy's drive and kick ability as he creates for that team.

Is Kyrie the athlete Westbrook is? No Dpoes he have the all around skills of Westy? No, certainly not. But Kyrie is a better ball handler and a much better shooter then Westy. If Kyrie used his ability to get into the lane to set up teammates rather than score every time he has the ball, the Cavs would be so much more effective. Problem for the Cavs is like Durant is the same age as Westy, Kyrie needs to figure it out quick, because LeBron is 31 and yes he's avoided decline but it's inevitable.

Its sad, I still don't think the Cavs have learned the concept of moving without the ball. You watch the Warriors play everything is so smooth and fluid, players are moving. Cavs players just stand around and watch LeBron/Kyrie dominate the ball.

Scoots
03-30-2016, 01:47 PM
He makes them better, but he's not utilizing himself correctly, nor is any "coach" helping that team. Kind of like Westbrook has matured these past couple seasons, Kyrie needs to do the same. Westbrook still plays wild sometimes, but he's now actively looking to pass and it seems he enjoys setting his teammates up as much as scoring himself, and that's when the Thunder thrive. I cannot tell you the amount of times I've seen Westy drive and set up Ibaka, Adams or Kanter up for easy dunks or lay-ups. It seems every basket Kanter/Adams score are due to Westy's drive and kick ability as he creates for that team.

Is Kyrie the athlete Westbrook is? No Dpoes he have the all around skills of Westy? No, certainly not. But Kyrie is a better ball handler and a much better shooter then Westy. If Kyrie used his ability to get into the lane to set up teammates rather than score every time he has the ball, the Cavs would be so much more effective. Problem for the Cavs is like Durant is the same age as Westy, Kyrie needs to figure it out quick, because LeBron is 31 and yes he's avoided decline but it's inevitable.

Its sad, I still don't think the Cavs have learned the concept of moving without the ball. You watch the Warriors play everything is so smooth and fluid, players are moving. Cavs players just stand around and watch LeBron/Kyrie dominate the ball.

The Thunder are getting more assists but even playing at the 2nd highest pace in the NBA they are dead last in passes per game. That team still doesn't move the ball well.

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/team/passing/?sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1

Kyrie maybe needs to be a 2 guard with a big defensive pass-first PG next to him.

Tony_Starks
03-30-2016, 02:37 PM
He makes them better.

Like make the series against the Warriors more interesting this time better....but not beat the Warriors better.

COOLbeans
03-30-2016, 02:42 PM
trade him for a legit 2 way PG like Conley.. or even a package with a mature young PG and a shooter like an Elfrid Payton and Evan Fournier.

Tony_Starks
03-30-2016, 03:15 PM
trade him for a legit 2 way PG like Conley.. or even a package with a mature young PG and a shooter like an Elfrid Payton and Evan Fournier.


A true pg is wasted next to Lebron, he's the 4th highest isolation player only behind Harden Melo and Lillard.

You're actually better served with a "shoot first" pg next to Lebron, he got to the Finals with Mo Williams for Petes sake!

Alayla
03-30-2016, 03:24 PM
I have always questioned Irving's fit on that team and I have never been that big of a fan of his game to begin with.

Bostonjorge
03-30-2016, 03:33 PM
He makes them better.

Like make the series against the Warriors more interesting this time better....but not beat the Warriors better.

Bingo.

Vee-Rex
03-30-2016, 05:40 PM
Ugh @ this thread.

His defense last playoffs was pretty good, and that was when playing hurt.

It feels like every other 24 year old (just turned 24 a week ago) gets the benefit of the doubt in terms of growth, whereas Kyrie doesn't (maybe it's because it feels like he has been in the league for a long time).

Fact: Kyrie has only played 6 years of basketball (including this year) out of high school. And a decent portion of that he was hurt.

Fact: Kyrie was given the keys to the franchise and told to rescue it, right before having to adjust to the arrival of Bron and Love.

Fact: Kyrie is shooting 46% from the field since December. He had a pretty terrible start coming off the knee injury and has been playing better since then.

Anyone claiming he is just a typical ball-hog or chucker don't know ****. Kyrie is trying to find his pass/shoot identity. Often times he will shoot the ball when he should pass, and he passes the ball when he should shoot. It's a glaring problem that will probably get better over time. Here's his assist totals in his last 25 games. It fluctuates heavily, and the main reason is because he doesn't realize his offensive identity yet.

8, 4, 8, 3, 4, 5, 1, 3, 5, 9, 4, 5, 4, 8, 6, 6, 1, 5, 5, 1, 4, 7, 12, 3, 6.

Cleveland needs Kyrie to be a reliable scoring punch. LeBron is declining and honestly I don't think he can explode for 35+ at will anymore, so complementing him with a guy like Conley wouldn't work as well as people think. Kyrie's a great off-the-dribble shooter, a great spot-up shooter, and great at creating his own shot. He just needs to get better at play-making for teammates and has shown to be capable of it. I expect his defense to improve in the playoffs.

If Kyrie can get 5-6 assists per game (his career average) on this Cavaliers team with a ball-dominant LeBron, I'd be happy with that.

While I understand that people feel the need to criticize this team because they aren't Golden State, I feel that despite all the drama and noise, they haven't done TOO bad.

Vee-Rex
03-30-2016, 05:54 PM
Oh yeah, to answer the thread question...

yes, Kyrie absolutely makes the Cavs better. Better enough to beat GS? No. Better enough to beat San Antonio? Probably not, but if the Cavs stand a chance at all in winning the trophy then it'll absolutely be with Kyrie.

JasonJohnHorn
03-30-2016, 06:16 PM
He makes them better.

Like make the series against the Warriors more interesting this time better....but not beat the Warriors better.

I think, defensively, Kyrie would have been less effective than 'Dova. I think Curry would have had a much better series.

5ass
03-30-2016, 07:04 PM
trade him for a legit 2 way PG like Conley.. or even a package with a mature young PG and a shooter like an Elfrid Payton and Evan Fournier.

I would love that as a Magic fan, and I think it could make the Cavs better. Payton can run the offense when LeBron is out of the game. I'd throw in the top 10-12 pick too so the Cavs can package that with Payton to consider moving both for a vet PG that can shoot.

WaDe03
03-30-2016, 07:09 PM
Is the Pope Jewish?

Bostonjorge
03-30-2016, 07:24 PM
Westbrook and Paul are the only PG's that will make the Cavs better than or equal to GS. Every other PG gives you the same results. 1st in the east and underdogs against GS. You plug in Irving for Parker in SA and you have a team better than GS. With Irving Spurs wouldn't even need Duncan and Manu to be the second best team in the league.

I get it tho, poor Cleveland for only having the third best PG in the league. Cavs are the only team that can't find a effective role for that level of talant.

Shammyguy3
03-30-2016, 10:29 PM
Westbrook and Paul are the only PG's that will make the Cavs better than or equal to GS. Every other PG gives you the same results. 1st in the east and underdogs against GS. You plug in Irving for Parker in SA and you have a team better than GS. With Irving Spurs wouldn't even need Duncan and Manu to be the second best team in the league.

I get it tho, poor Cleveland for only having the third best PG in the league. Cavs are the only team that can't find a effective role for that level of talant.

Same results maybe, but better odds at winning a series is more important when your opponent always has to battle with health and injuries. Irving is not the 3rd best PG in the league either, far from it. Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Lowry, Bledsoe, Lillard, Conley all are better or have very good arguments against Irving.

ghettosean
03-30-2016, 10:53 PM
Ugh @ this thread.

His defense last playoffs was pretty good, and that was when playing hurt.

It feels like every other 24 year old (just turned 24 a week ago) gets the benefit of the doubt in terms of growth, whereas Kyrie doesn't (maybe it's because it feels like he has been in the league for a long time).

Fact: Kyrie has only played 6 years of basketball (including this year) out of high school. And a decent portion of that he was hurt.

Fact: Kyrie was given the keys to the franchise and told to rescue it, right before having to adjust to the arrival of Bron and Love.

Fact: Kyrie is shooting 46% from the field since December. He had a pretty terrible start coming off the knee injury and has been playing better since then.

Anyone claiming he is just a typical ball-hog or chucker don't know ****. Kyrie is trying to find his pass/shoot identity. Often times he will shoot the ball when he should pass, and he passes the ball when he should shoot. It's a glaring problem that will probably get better over time. Here's his assist totals in his last 25 games. It fluctuates heavily, and the main reason is because he doesn't realize his offensive identity yet.

8, 4, 8, 3, 4, 5, 1, 3, 5, 9, 4, 5, 4, 8, 6, 6, 1, 5, 5, 1, 4, 7, 12, 3, 6.

Cleveland needs Kyrie to be a reliable scoring punch. LeBron is declining and honestly I don't think he can explode for 35+ at will anymore, so complementing him with a guy like Conley wouldn't work as well as people think. Kyrie's a great off-the-dribble shooter, a great spot-up shooter, and great at creating his own shot. He just needs to get better at play-making for teammates and has shown to be capable of it. I expect his defense to improve in the playoffs.

If Kyrie can get 5-6 assists per game (his career average) on this Cavaliers team with a ball-dominant LeBron, I'd be happy with that.

While I understand that people feel the need to criticize this team because they aren't Golden State, I feel that despite all the drama and noise, they haven't done TOO bad.

Damn!!! Well said sir!

Chronz
03-30-2016, 11:00 PM
A true pg is wasted next to Lebron, he's the 4th highest isolation player only behind Harden Melo and Lillard.

You're actually better served with a "shoot first" pg next to Lebron, he got to the Finals with Mo Williams for Petes sake!
Thats could still be why his post rings true. Bron handled the play making less in years past. He's never made the finals with mo Williams. He did however make it with the kind of player the guy you're quoting suggested, defensive pgs

Bostonjorge
03-31-2016, 02:11 AM
Same results maybe, but better odds at winning a series is more important when your opponent always has to battle with health and injuries. Irving is not the 3rd best PG in the league either, far from it. Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Lowry, Bledsoe, Lillard, Conley all are better or have very good arguments against Irving.

Don't know how I forgot about curry I meant the fourth best PG. Curry, Westbrook and Paul then it's Irving. I say he's about neck and neck with Lillard.

Hawkeye15
03-31-2016, 11:27 AM
Same results maybe, but better odds at winning a series is more important when your opponent always has to battle with health and injuries. Irving is not the 3rd best PG in the league either, far from it. Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Lowry, Bledsoe, Lillard, Conley all are better or have very good arguments against Irving.

we saw this with the LeBron haters and the Heat too. Wade was apparently 2006 Wade the whole time, and Bosh was amazing. Now they move on to Irving being a top PG. Uh, he is not. He is a very good player, but he is not a top PG by any means.

Again, he makes the Cavs better, if we are measuring him against your average PG, but he isn't the best fit, because he dominates the **** out of the ball.

Shammyguy3
03-31-2016, 10:03 PM
we saw this with the LeBron haters and the Heat too. Wade was apparently 2006 Wade the whole time, and Bosh was amazing. Now they move on to Irving being a top PG. Uh, he is not. He is a very good player, but he is not a top PG by any means.

Again, he makes the Cavs better, if we are measuring him against your average PG, but he isn't the best fit, because he dominates the **** out of the ball.

Whatever narrative the masses want to trick themselves into believing, am i right?

Kush McDaniels
03-31-2016, 10:31 PM
Bill Simmons was right when he said Kyrie is like the Marbury of today. There's a lot of guards I'd take over him.

SteBO
03-31-2016, 10:34 PM
Whatever narrative the masses want to trick themselves into believing, am i right?
Yes, but nationally if you ask me, people are starting to understand just how talented, but flawed Kyrie is as a player and this board has been overrating Kevin Love imo for years and years on end. Now you don't hear anyone referencing the trio as a "Big Three" anymore. As has been the case, LBJ will have to carry a large load in Cleveland just to have a chance at the title. That doesn't mean Irving is unecessary. If they're gonna do anything of relevance, it's going to be with Kyrie on the floor, not off it.

SfgiantsJD3
04-01-2016, 03:20 PM
Oh yeah, to answer the thread question...

yes, Kyrie absolutely makes the Cavs better. Better enough to beat GS? No. Better enough to beat San Antonio? Probably not, but if the Cavs stand a chance at all in winning the trophy then it'll absolutely be with Kyrie.

Kyrie disagrees with you "'We're still the team to beat'"

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/03/kyrie_irving_didnt_mince_words.html#incart_river_i ndex

Scoots
04-01-2016, 03:30 PM
Kyrie disagrees with you "'We're still the team to beat'"

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/03/kyrie_irving_didnt_mince_words.html#incart_river_i ndex

Were they EVER the team to beat?

SfgiantsJD3
04-01-2016, 08:04 PM
Were they EVER the team to beat?
Yes- lots of pundits said if only ..< insert comment on why warriors were lucky to win last year /this year>.. last year, apparently some players still feel the same way.

I always thought that the championship goes through the prior years winner. Maybe it will inspire the Warriors to play a little better.