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basketballkitty
03-29-2016, 01:54 PM
And since it's inception over 55 years ago, NO Freshmen college player ever...Not Magic Johnson, Not Larry Bird, Not Tim Duncan, Not MJ or any other College Freshmen has ever been named to the 1st team...Oh wait. Not til now!



http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/sports/college/lsu/2016/03/28/lsus-ben-simmons-named-first-team-nabc-all-american-team/82348058/

valade16
03-29-2016, 02:36 PM
Given that this was a historic appointment I think it's absurd that Ben Simmons is the first. His team stunk for most of the year and he didn't do very well in several high profile games. No way should he have been the first.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2016, 02:55 PM
the one and done era has straight up killed college basketball imo. It's nearly unbearable to watch. The early 90's Duke teams would have wiped the floor with any team over the last 5-6 years in the NCAA.

valade16
03-29-2016, 02:59 PM
the one and done era has straight up killed college basketball imo. It's nearly unbearable to watch. The early 90's Duke teams would have wiped the floor with any team over the last 5-6 years in the NCAA.

I tried to get into it this season since my Ducks were doing so well but yeah, watching it was downright painful.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2016, 03:10 PM
I tried to get into it this season since my Ducks were doing so well but yeah, watching it was downright painful.

It's just terrible to watch. The skill level is at an all time low, because anyone with what is considered NBA talent better leave after year 1, or something is wrong with them.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 03:35 PM
I hoped college ball would get better, but more and more players are one and done. I'm now hopeful that the new draft rules are going to help encourage more players to stay in school longer. But I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Shorter time in college, shorter time in college for practice, the fact that it takes a lot more time to develop a big than a shooter to be successful in the college game, more automatic money for players who are drafted in the first round ... it's created a bad college game.

BallDontLie
03-29-2016, 04:05 PM
you guys are extreme. theres nothing wrong with college bball and its been fantastic other than the dumb hand check rule that they made last year. Last year had a few dominant teams and it showed with Duke, Wisconsin, Ky and this year there really wasnt one and it was the year of the upper classmen. Players have been staying in school longer than most realize in terms of one and dones lately. Im all for the 2 year min bcuz it forces players to focus more on developing their game and re-establishing value and also places an emphasis on going to class and actually learning since the threat of ineligibility comes into play.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2016, 04:15 PM
you guys are extreme. theres nothing wrong with college bball and its been fantastic other than the dumb hand check rule that they made last year. Last year had a few dominant teams and it showed with Duke, Wisconsin, Ky and this year there really wasnt one and it was the year of the upper classmen. Players have been staying in school longer than most realize in terms of one and dones lately. Im all for the 2 year min bcuz it forces players to focus more on developing their game and re-establishing value and also places an emphasis on going to class and actually learning since the threat of ineligibility comes into play.

the "dominant" teams today would be mopped all over the floor by the teams from years ago. The last team I can think of that would have been able to challenge the 90's Duke team, or North Carolina, or the Running Rebels, is the Noah/Horford/Brewer Florida team.

The fact is, talent leaves so early now, there just aren't many great NCAA players. Look at Buddy Hield, his draft stock is absolutely hurt because he stayed all 4 years. He is by far the best player in college, but has literally no chance at being a top pick.

It's watered down.

I do agree, 2 years minimum please.

BallDontLie
03-29-2016, 04:30 PM
Heild stock isnt hurt at all and age has played a role in the draft for a very long time when 2 players are close in talent, nothing wrong with that. the game was also played different in the 90's and there was less incentive to leave early compared to now a days.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2016, 04:42 PM
Heild stock isnt hurt at all and age has played a role in the draft for a very long time when 2 players are close in talent, nothing wrong with that. the game was also played different in the 90's and there was less incentive to leave early compared to now a days.

I don't think his is hurt simply because he is miles better than he was a year or two ago. But the norm is, the younger the better. Most players hurt their stock by staying.

The incentive to leave early wasn't there because there wasn't this belief that if you are a talented 18 year old you must go to the NBA as fast as possible to develop. Previous to the one and done era, there were great teams littered with future NBA players. That just isn't the case anymore, unless you are talking about Kentucky which basically just yearly has 18-19 year olds that are just biding their time until they make the jump.

BallDontLie
03-29-2016, 04:57 PM
even KY has seen more players staying in school lately (at least by their standards). Theres so much more money to be made now a days by bolting and with all these elite camps, AAU, U-whatever age team these players are scouted so much more and thats what leads to players leaving early bcuz they hear how good they are 2-3 years before they even get to college and they want to capitalize on it. But the last 3 years or so more highly ranked players have stayed in school who didnt live up to the hype but could still have went in the first round. But some of these kids are really ready after just one year so its a tough call to make someone like Durant stay after he destroyed the NCAA, even Blake really had no business staying 2 years, he just wanted to keep playing with his brother.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2016, 05:02 PM
even KY has seen more players staying in school lately (at least by their standards). Theres so much more money to be made now a days by bolting and with all these elite camps, AAU, U-whatever age team these players are scouted so much more and thats what leads to players leaving early bcuz they hear how good they are 2-3 years before they even get to college and they want to capitalize on it. But the last 3 years or so more highly ranked players have stayed in school who didnt live up to the hype but could still have went in the first round. But some of these kids are really ready after just one year so its a tough call to make someone like Durant stay after he destroyed the NCAA, even Blake really had no business staying 2 years, he just wanted to keep playing with his brother.

But those generational talents were always there, but they played against way stronger talent incoming, unlike Durant did.

NCAA ball is unwatchable. It's a bunch of kids wasting tons of effort and jacking up 3's all over the place. It's boring to me.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 05:08 PM
2 year minimum isn't going to happen. To fix NCAAB there is going to have to be a bunch of changes with the CBA, and more importantly with the NCAA.

basketballkitty
03-29-2016, 06:14 PM
Hield to me a good guy, having a great season on a great team. But as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to shooter/strictly volume scorers like Hield...Sub the line from Forrest Gump, when talking about " LIFE "



" You know SHOOTERS are like a Box of Chocolates...you NEVER know what you're gonna get "


I have seen so many shooters/scorers that had BETTER season/s then Buddy has had, only to go on to be Busts in the NBA. In reality, great shooters, especially 3 Pt shooters can be had anywhere.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 06:34 PM
Hield to me a good guy, having a great season on a great team. But as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to shooter/strictly volume scorers like Hield...Sub the line from Forrest Gump, when talking about " LIFE "



" You know SHOOTERS are like a Box of Chocolates...you NEVER know what you're gonna get "


I have seen so many shooters/scorers that had BETTER season/s then Buddy has had, only to go on to be Busts in the NBA. In reality, great shooters, especially 3 Pt shooters can be had anywhere.

Really ... it's easy to find "great shooters"? Then why are teams always looking for them?

basketballkitty
03-29-2016, 07:10 PM
Really ... it's easy to find "great shooters"? Then why are teams always looking for them?



I think it's cause they look at players who have great college seasons, then draft them High and expect more then just shooting, like say someone who is a great shooter in college, but is a 2nd rounder, and has not the further expectations of say someone like Nik Stauskas....Doug Mcdermott, Gary Harris, ect. And even though those guys are not complete failures. They're NOT Elite level talents like say what a player who is drafted top-5 like Hield is said to go.


I mean look at some past drafted players.....Rice " Morris Almond " Michigan States " Shawn Respart " or even Ohio States " Jon Diebler " ALL of whom were just as great and even BETTER Shooters/scorers then Hiled will ever be. And they all completely Busted in the NBA. And Hield has no better Intangeables like great Height, Length, Athletic ability that would trump my argument.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 08:04 PM
I think it's cause they look at players who have great college seasons, then draft them High and expect more then just shooting, like say someone who is a great shooter in college, but is a 2nd rounder, and has not the further expectations of say someone like Nik Stauskas....Doug Mcdermott, Gary Harris, ect. And even though those guys are not complete failures. They're NOT Elite level talents like say what a player who is drafted top-5 like Hield is said to go.


I mean look at some past drafted players.....Rice " Morris Almond " Michigan States " Shawn Respart " or even Ohio States " Jon Diebler " ALL of whom were just as great and even BETTER Shooters/scorers then Hiled will ever be. And they all completely Busted in the NBA. And Hield has no better Intangeables like great Height, Length, Athletic ability that would trump my argument.

I understand that shooters have been drafted and been busts ... but that doesn't explain how "easy" it is to find "great" shooters. Is your contention that great shooters make it to the NBA and are then ruined by their teams?

basketballkitty
03-29-2016, 09:40 PM
I understand that shooters have been drafted and been busts ... but that doesn't explain how "easy" it is to find "great" shooters. Is your contention that great shooters make it to the NBA and are then ruined by their teams?



I wouldn't say ruined per se. But they often are not assisted either. I mean look at the Spurs. They have been a Inside/Out team for years under Pops. And they have lost many under tier players, and the Spurs just sign players that it seems others have either given up on, or can't find as easily as they do. I mean shooters need players that will help them ease up the defense. And Post players or players that thrive on driving the lane need players who at least have the THREAT of making a 3 to open things up. And it is easier to find a 3pt specialist then it is say players like a Tim Duncan, K.Leonard, ect.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't say ruined per se. But they often are not assisted either. I mean look at the Spurs. They have been a Inside/Out team for years under Pops. And they have lost many under tier players, and the Spurs just sign players that it seems others have either given up on, or can't find as easily as they do. I mean shooters need players that will help them ease up the defense. And Post players or players that thrive on driving the lane need players who at least have the THREAT of making a 3 to open things up. And it is easier to find a 3pt specialist then it is say players like a Tim Duncan, K.Leonard, ect.

Using the Spurs as an example for scouting is not a good argument. The Spurs and the Warriors have proven to be good at finding shooters ... but they do it better than most and even they are still looking for shooting every off-season. It's not easy to find great shooters ... in the top 20 3pt% shooters active players list 5 have been on the Spurs, and 4 have been Warriors. That's 9 of the top 20 current career 3pt shooters having been on 2 teams, 45%. What have the other 28 teams been doing if it's so easy?

basketballkitty
03-29-2016, 11:08 PM
Well then let me use my Sixers as an example. Now, we don't have near the protection that say shooters for the Spurs have. But yet Philly found undrafted Robert Covington out there, signed him to a 4 year 4 million dollar deal, and he is a good 3pt shooter. Now his % is not as high with them. But replace him with Green in San Antonio, and I guarantee you you have just as good a shooter as Green, and as equal a defensive player and a better rebounder. And what about Hollis Thompson ? He went undrafted 3 years ago, and after signing him, all he has done is shoot 40 % his first 2 seasons. And this year I think he is just under that with 8 games to go. And it wasn't like we developed him either. Hollis was one of the best college shooters at Georgetown his entire career. And yet the league let him go undrafted. And Hollis was one of the most wanted players at the trade deadline. This was reported by WoJo about a week after the deadline. So you see, you don't waste a top-5 pick IMHO on a player like Hield who is basically 1-deminsional.

Scoots
03-30-2016, 12:15 AM
Well then let me use my Sixers as an example. Now, we don't have near the protection that say shooters for the Spurs have. But yet Philly found undrafted Robert Covington out there, signed him to a 4 year 4 million dollar deal, and he is a good 3pt shooter. Now his % is not as high with them. But replace him with Green in San Antonio, and I guarantee you you have just as good a shooter as Green, and as equal a defensive player and a better rebounder. And what about Hollis Thompson ? He went undrafted 3 years ago, and after signing him, all he has done is shoot 40 % his first 2 seasons. And this year I think he is just under that with 8 games to go. And it wasn't like we developed him either. Hollis was one of the best college shooters at Georgetown his entire career. And yet the league let him go undrafted. And Hollis was one of the most wanted players at the trade deadline. This was reported by WoJo about a week after the deadline. So you see, you don't waste a top-5 pick IMHO on a player like Hield who is basically 1-deminsional.

1. Covington is a better offensive player than Danny Green, but Green is a far better defender ... on a far better defending team.

2. Those are not great shooters. They are good shooters. You said it was easy to find "great".

valade16
03-30-2016, 08:40 AM
even KY has seen more players staying in school lately (at least by their standards). Theres so much more money to be made now a days by bolting and with all these elite camps, AAU, U-whatever age team these players are scouted so much more and thats what leads to players leaving early bcuz they hear how good they are 2-3 years before they even get to college and they want to capitalize on it. But the last 3 years or so more highly ranked players have stayed in school who didnt live up to the hype but could still have went in the first round. But some of these kids are really ready after just one year so its a tough call to make someone like Durant stay after he destroyed the NCAA, even Blake really had no business staying 2 years, he just wanted to keep playing with his brother.

An interesting claim considering this season every Kentucky player who is eligible to declare for the NBA has done so.

I know they all won't go depending upon their draft stock, but that is indicative of the Kentucky philosophy: a stop gap to the NBA.

BallDontLie
03-30-2016, 08:54 AM
But those generational talents were always there, but they played against way stronger talent incoming, unlike Durant did.

NCAA ball is unwatchable. It's a bunch of kids wasting tons of effort and jacking up 3's all over the place. It's boring to me.

i guess were not watching the same games then. KD would have lit it up in any generation, plenty of others too.

BallDontLie
03-30-2016, 08:58 AM
An interesting claim considering this season every Kentucky player who is eligible to declare for the NBA has done so.

I know they all won't go depending upon their draft stock, but that is indicative of the Kentucky philosophy: a stop gap to the NBA.

did they really? that has to be like 8 guys right? Really only 1-2 are lotto picks though. But yea Cal has no problem bringing in guys he knows are leaving after a year but there have been some staying past a year of late who were expected to leave early

valade16
03-30-2016, 09:17 AM
did they really? that has to be like 8 guys right? Really only 1-2 are lotto picks though. But yea Cal has no problem bringing in guys he knows are leaving after a year but there have been some staying past a year of late who were expected to leave early

Yeah they recently changed the rule. Previously once you hired an agent and declared for the draft you could not return to college but they just made it so that you could do those things and explore your value and then decide to come back to college, so Cal's new strategy is to have every eligible person declare for the draft every year to gauge their value before returning.

BallDontLie
03-30-2016, 09:39 AM
i know they backed up the deadline for players to test the waters a little longer before deciding, which was the right call and i think will help more guys decide to go back in the long run. But i dont remember them changing the rule about hiring an agent.

Hawkeye15
03-30-2016, 10:07 AM
i guess were not watching the same games then. KD would have lit it up in any generation, plenty of others too.

not as a freshman in the era before one and done. He would have been an excellent freshman, but the teams back then were full of juniors and seniors, so his usage would not have been anywhere near what it was.