PDA

View Full Version : Charlotte could lose All-Star game over anti-transexual law



mrblisterdundee
03-25-2016, 10:58 AM
Looks like the NBA is taking a stand against a law passed by the North Carolina Legislature (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/nba-threatens-lost-charlotte-all-star-game-over-nc-anti-trans-law-235244562.html) forcing people to use the bathroom assigned to their biological sex. The league made a statement seen by some as a veiled threat:

"The NBA is dedicated to creating an inclusive environment for all who attend our games and events. We are deeply concerned that this discriminatory law runs counter to our guiding principles of equality and mutual respect and do not yet know what impact it will have on our ability to successfully host the 2017 All-Star Game in Charlotte.

mrblisterdundee
03-25-2016, 11:00 AM
The sports world isn't really known as a bastion for LGBT rights, but I like how the NBA is at least pretending to care. If a transexual female wants to use the girl's bathroom, or vise versa, what's the harm?

Raidaz4Life
03-25-2016, 11:01 AM
Keep politics out of the NBA

ManningToTyree
03-25-2016, 11:02 AM
The sports world isn't really known as a bastion for LGBT rights, but I like how the NBA is at least pretending to care. If a transexual female wants to use the girl's bathroom, or vise versa, what's the harm? we are talking post-op right?

Tony_Starks
03-25-2016, 11:20 AM
From my understanding the law basically says that you have to use the public restroom of whatever gender is on your birth certificate, as opposed to whatever you "identify" as at that particular time.

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. There is a process to change ones gender on your birth certificate, if they choose to do so.

Of course the nba is going to play politics. That group has huge media power these days, no one wants to run the risk of appearing to not be "inclusive"

DarkKnight
03-25-2016, 11:28 AM
Okay now I've heard it all

TheIlladelph16
03-25-2016, 11:28 AM
Good. I like when an organization as powerful as the NBA stands up for what is right, so hopefully they follow through with the threat if it comes to it. Unfortunately Charlotte will also be affected by this despite passing anti-discrimination laws, but their state legislature mucked this up for the city.

TheIlladelph16
03-25-2016, 11:28 AM
we are talking post-op right?

Does this really matter? Haha

Scoots
03-25-2016, 11:32 AM
we are talking post-op right?

Don't think so.

I know when I was a dumb boob obsessed 13 year old I'd consider telling people I identified as female if it let me use the girls locker room.

The only real solution is that in the long run every bathroom will be unisex.

Also, "transsexual" is not the preferred term anymore. Transgendered people is the preferred term.

ghettosean
03-25-2016, 11:41 AM
Keep politics out of the NBA

I disagree I'm not talking specifically about this issue but of slavery was aloud in North Carolina again and the NBA took a stance against it I'd be pretty damn happy. As per this issue it's a tough one to tackle cause I imagine having a Bruce Jenner in the woman's bathroom could make woman feel very uncomfortable but I know there are a few establishments (very few) in Canada that have transgender bathrooms if a state wants to pass laws of this kind maybe it could be for establishments to get at least large stadiums and businesses to have transgender washrooms so all parties/sexes are comfortable. I'm happy this issue did get some attention as I was not aware of it nor did I even contemplate this issue.

On the flipside even though I mentioned the above I do think in general (not this issue specifically) but everyone is getting to PC nowadays.

rev
03-25-2016, 11:42 AM
Man i wish i lived during the 1950s.... Didnt have to constantly deal with this PC & be/do whatever you want crap.

DarkKnight
03-25-2016, 11:52 AM
we are talking post-op right?

:laugh: I missed that

valade16
03-25-2016, 12:01 PM
Man i wish i lived during the 1950s.... Didnt have to constantly deal with this PC & be/do whatever you want crap.

You did but back then being PC meant you thought black people could use the same bathrooms as white people.

Sly Guy
03-25-2016, 12:05 PM
The sports world isn't really known as a bastion for LGBT rights, but I like how the NBA is at least pretending to care. If a transexual female wants to use the girl's bathroom, or vise versa, what's the harm?

could make a lot of other people in that room uncomfortable? Some people out there don't consider trans-men to be men, and trans-women as men (everyone has an opinion). Plus, it's not like you could enforce pre-post op by having people drop their pants to check before entering the bathroom.

When I was a lifeguard, I had to face this problem a few times, the solution for me was to have them change in the guard room whenever someone complained. No, it wasn't ideal, but it might have helped save a black eye or two.

beasted86
03-25-2016, 12:09 PM
Call me whatever, but I don't understand how this law is discriminatory. The law isn't about maltreatment to me, it's about avoiding confrontation and situations. I don't agree with the NBA either way since the team, arena owner, etc may not agree anyway.


True story of my somewhat direct experience with this issue.

TL;DR: Brother faced situation of maybe getting fired of letting trans employee use female restroom.

I worked in a retail store chain the same as my brother. I worked with a guy for a couple months. He quits, comes back a year later, they rehire him, at a different store where my brother was a department manager, except now he wants to be called "Christina". My brother asks more if I remember working with a "Chris" and tells me about this situation how his store manager decided to rehire him. Now, I never saw him in his new 'form' but my brother says he looked just like a man with a wig and makeup on. From what I knew about him from working with him, this guy was a regular guy-looking guy. If that makes it any clearer, my point is I don't see how he could try to pass for a woman.

Anyway, fast-forward a couple weeks and he tells me he is the lucky shift manager to get some customer who chews him out about a "man" in the women's restroom and how unsafe she feels, and about "what if her daughter was alone in there". My brother tells me he literally just had to shut his mouth and say nothing. He didn't want to side with the customer or the employee because he didn't know which way which would fall. He told me he gave her the company line "I understand your concern and will address upper management". If he sides with the employee maybe customer gets angry and tries to sue for some type of privacy violation or sexual assault or who knows which. If he sides with the customer, maybe he makes the 7:00 news and the company has an LGBT protest in front of the store. Even with him doing basically nothing he was telling me how nervous he was about the situation.

Sorry man, I have no hate, ill will, or anything for anyone who disagrees, but no manager should be put in those tough situations. Worrying about potentially losing a job over some BS like that is totally unnecessary.

PhillyFaninLA
03-25-2016, 12:12 PM
Man i wish i lived during the 1950s.... Didn't have to constantly deal with this PC & be/do whatever you want crap.

So in other words you are saying you'd prefer people be segregated, not be able to be themselves, and some people being treated horrible for nothing other than being themselves.

You do realize how much of a bigot you sound like with that comment of yours, and close minded as well.

PhillyFaninLA
03-25-2016, 12:14 PM
Keep politics out of the NBA


A powerful organization like the NBA has the ability to influence positive social change. This isn't a political issue, its a human rights issue.

chi-townlove1
03-25-2016, 12:16 PM
**** that. I don't want a woman pretending to be a man coming in the men's washroom. And I know plenty of women that would be extremely disturbed with a man pretending to be a woman walking in their bathroom or locker rooms. Just an absolute mockery. The fact that you all still try to fight for what's politically correct or claim they were "born like this" just makes me laugh.

PhillyFaninLA
03-25-2016, 12:18 PM
You know the great thing about a topic like this....it tells you so much about some of the posters on this site.

edit:

It also shows you the ignorance of the law that was passed as well and how look at the topic, let me not be educated about this sort of thing. I heard what the governor did yesterday and this is an LGBT rights issue.

chi-townlove1
03-25-2016, 12:19 PM
Don't hide when you're talking about someone. Call me out if you've got an issue with it. Either way, we ever meeting in real life? I think not. Therefore, what does it matter what you come to conclusions about Me over the Internet.

ewing
03-25-2016, 01:04 PM
if i want to hook up with a tranny in the bathroom that's my business.

nyknicks1969
03-25-2016, 01:15 PM
We have normalized certain mental illnesses. Notwithstanding each person should have a right to live in peace (which means freedom to no be imposed on either).

Facts matter. All of society should not have their privacy concerns ignored to accommodate an opinion not grounded in fact. You have surgery and no d***, sure go to the girls room. You got a d***, boys please.

Rules exist for a reason and many times they have with thousands of years of rooting in "good-producing" human behavior versus "bad-producing" human behavior.

We have tossed out wisdom of the ages in favor of situational morality. This ends badly for everyone but as with many things the crazies will refuse to deny reality in favor a the Brave New World.

nyknicks1969
03-25-2016, 01:17 PM
The other thing is folks luv Democracy when it gives them what they want, but nowadays if you don't you scream some ISM to try and bully through what you want.

Either you believe in the Democratic System and Federalism or you don't. But to try and bully folks when they exercise it and over turn things in an anti democratic fashion .... seems wrong to me.

Hawkeye15
03-25-2016, 01:18 PM
You did but back then being PC meant you thought black people could use the same bathrooms as white people.

My grandma grew up in Alabama, and was hilariously racist. When I was like 30ish, she got all up in arms because the couple across the street from us was a black man, and white woman.

So stupid, we just laughed at her really.

Hawkeye15
03-25-2016, 01:19 PM
From my understanding the law basically says that you have to use the public restroom of whatever gender is on your birth certificate, as opposed to whatever you "identify" as at that particular time.

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. There is a process to change ones gender on your birth certificate, if they choose to do so.
Of course the nba is going to play politics. That group has huge media power these days, no one wants to run the risk of appearing to not be "inclusive"

agreed

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 01:21 PM
I have nothing against Transgenders at all. And I think the Law is trash. However, if a Transgender has not had the surgery to legally change their sex, then no matter what, at any public restroom, I think if a person has male part, then they have to use the male restroom. Same for a person with female parts. No matter what they feel their sex SHOULD have been...until then...no matter how they may appear outwardly, they should be required to use the proper facilities. But other then that, they should be afforded all the same things I should be able to get, and should not be banned, or shunned in any way.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 01:27 PM
Call me whatever, but I don't understand how this law is discriminatory. The law isn't about maltreatment to me, it's about avoiding confrontation and situations. I don't agree with the NBA either way since the team, arena owner, etc may not agree anyway.


True story of my somewhat direct experience with this issue.

TL;DR: Brother faced situation of maybe getting fired of letting trans employee use female restroom.

I worked in a retail store chain the same as my brother. I worked with a guy for a couple months. He quits, comes back a year later, they rehire him, at a different store where my brother was a department manager, except now he wants to be called "Christina". My brother asks more if I remember working with a "Chris" and tells me about this situation how his store manager decided to rehire him. Now, I never saw him in his new 'form' but my brother says he looked just like a man with a wig and makeup on. From what I knew about him from working with him, this guy was a regular guy-looking guy. If that makes it any clearer, my point is I don't see how he could try to pass for a woman.

Anyway, fast-forward a couple weeks and he tells me he is the lucky shift manager to get some customer who chews him out about a "man" in the women's restroom and how unsafe she feels, and about "what if her daughter was alone in there". My brother tells me he literally just had to shut his mouth and say nothing. He didn't want to side with the customer or the employee because he didn't know which way which would fall. He told me he gave her the company line "I understand your concern and will address upper management". If he sides with the employee maybe customer gets angry and tries to sue for some type of privacy violation or sexual assault or who knows which. If he sides with the customer, maybe he makes the 7:00 news and the company has an LGBT protest in front of the store. Even with him doing basically nothing he was telling me how nervous he was about the situation.

Sorry man, I have no hate, ill will, or anything for anyone who disagrees, but no manager should be put in those tough situations. Worrying about potentially losing a job over some BS like that is totally unnecessary.

Yep. A "special" bathroom doesn't solve the issue as that singles them out, but you don't want to make anyone uncomfortable whatever their orientation. A man dressed as a woman in the mens room would make some men uncomfortable. A woman dressed as a man in the mens room would make some women uncomfortable. It's not just a "PC" issue ... it's a real issue for everyone. The only solution is unisex bathrooms.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 01:29 PM
Good on the NBA. That's one of the beauties of free enterprise. If people want to be discriminating ***holes, you can take your business elsewhere.

AndrewKent14
03-25-2016, 01:34 PM
NBA is stupid if they pull the game from charlotte. leave politics out of sports. I have a daughter and would be very uncomfortable if some person born a man even if they call themselves a woman went into the same washroom as her. I think a childs safety is more important than being politically correct. politically correct is another term for facism anyway

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:34 PM
Things like this are why Trump is doing so well. This is PC to the extreme. Please don't insult the black community by comparing trannies to blacks.

Atticus Finch
03-25-2016, 01:35 PM
If a restroom was all stalls, no urinals, does it really matter what parts people have? All of us here have probably shared a restroom with a transgendered person and didn't even realize it.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:37 PM
It isn't discriminatory, transexuals make up about 0.1% of the population. They are the ones seeking special treatment. Sorry but 99.9% of the population should not have to change b/c of 0.1% of the population has a mental disorder (yes various doctors have concluded it is a mental disorder).

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:38 PM
I think its insulting to lump transexuals into the gay community too. Gays say they are born gay not by choice, if thats the case then you can't choose to be a man or woman you are born that way.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 01:39 PM
if i want to hook up with a tranny in the bathroom that's my business.

I hooked up my wife's subaru engine with a tranny a couple months back, had to lube up the shaft first ... slotted together like they were made for each other and working just fine ever since. Don't dis it till you try it. :)

"Tranny" is a term for a transvestite not a transgendered person ... and they prefer cross dresser. I knew a cross dresser years ago and he was as much a poon hound as anyone. He wouldn't want himself let loose in a woman's restroom either :)

Oh, and the law isn't about "hooking up" ... that's illegal in public pretty much everywhere regardless of your sexual identification or that of your partner.

mrblisterdundee
03-25-2016, 01:41 PM
Don't think so.

I know when I was a dumb boob obsessed 13 year old I'd consider telling people I identified as female if it let me use the girls locker room.

The only real solution is that in the long run every bathroom will be unisex.

Also, "transsexual" is not the preferred term anymore. Transgendered people is the preferred term.

I don't think people trying to fake being the other sex is a huge issue that's like passing voter restriction laws to prevent nonexistent voter fraud. Unisex bathrooms would be nice, although I can imagine some sort of social battle over that too.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 01:42 PM
If you have a " WILLY " then FREE him up in the Male restroom. And if you don't, then use the Female one. It's that simple, and it is fair. That's the bottom line people.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 01:42 PM
It isn't discriminatory, transexuals make up about 0.1% of the population. They are the ones seeking special treatment. Sorry but 99.9% of the population should not have to change b/c of 0.1% of the population has a mental disorder (yes various doctors have concluded it is a mental disorder).

Do you have a problem with wider doors and ramps for people in wheelchairs? With push bars for doors for people who have dexterity issues with door knobs? With chirp signals for traffic lights for the blind?

It's possible to go too far sure ... but if you do it based on population then when any minority gets minor enough maybe we can just make them live in cages ... I mean they are hardly people anymore right?

Scoots
03-25-2016, 01:46 PM
I don't think people trying to fake being the other sex is a huge issue that's like passing voter restriction laws to prevent nonexistent voter fraud. Unisex bathrooms would be nice, although I can imagine some sort of social battle over that too.

It being a "huge issue" didn't get this law written either. It was probably a tiny issue with a vocal minority.

I can see the logic in the voter fraud law even if it is a miniscule issue. Heck I think voting should be done entirely online and all at once and actually do it democratically. Thanks to the internet the populace could actually vote on each and every decision made and ever law enacted. You get to vote once on each question. You are not required to vote on any. Go to it. I think that would be very interesting.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:46 PM
Do you have a problem with wider doors and ramps for people in wheelchairs? With push bars for doors for people who have dexterity issues with door knobs? With chirp signals for traffic lights for the blind?

It's possible to go too far sure ... but if you do it based on population then when any minority gets minor enough maybe we can just make them live in cages ... I mean they are hardly people anymore right?

If you cannot see the difference between handicapped people and transexuals then that is on you.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 01:46 PM
This law is actually far more than just to do with bathrooms btw. The law prevents local and city governments from making any laws that protect LGBT people from being discriminated against. So, because there are no existing protections for LGBT people in NC, there now will not be any added as it's illegal to protect them. Charlotte tried to do it, but the state disallowed it.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article67845317.html

As an organization that has had and assuredly still has gay players in its ranks, it would be a bad message to its employees to reward NC with an All-Star game.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:50 PM
It being a "huge issue" didn't get this law written either. It was probably a tiny issue with a vocal minority.

I can see the logic in the voter fraud law even if it is a miniscule issue. Heck I think voting should be done entirely online and all at once and actually do it democratically. Thanks to the internet the populace could actually vote on each and every decision made and ever law enacted. You get to vote once on each question. You are not required to vote on any. Go to it. I think that would be very interesting.

In theory that sounds great but in practice it is terrible. I used to live in California where they put a lot of issues on the ballot and it is a huge mistake b/c voters don't at all take cost into account. You basically have people voting as if what they are getting they don't have to pay for.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 01:52 PM
Okay then the NBA should boycott sanctuary cities as well.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 01:52 PM
I think its insulting to lump transexuals into the gay community too. Gays say they are born gay not by choice, if thats the case then you can't choose to be a man or woman you are born that way.

What? Transsexuals aren't saying they are choosing to switch genders. They are saying that the gender and the sex that they were born with don't match up.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 01:55 PM
This law is actually far more than just to do with bathrooms btw. The law prevents local and city governments from making any laws that protect LGBT people from being discriminated against. So, because there are no existing protections for LGBT people in NC, there now will not be any added as it's illegal to protect them. Charlotte tried to do it, but the state disallowed it.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article67845317.html




Well all I can say is if this Law was put in without a State wide vote by the people of NC...then I am against it. But, to not put it to a vote because people out there think it is discriminating....well that is totally wrong.
The people have the final say. I understand that Transgenders are born the way they are, and that they feel like they are the other sex...no matter what Organs they have. And maybe they don't have the money, or Insurance to get the operation and Hormones to change their sex. But that should not be the other people of NC problem.


Look, I accept the fact that a woman who just gave birth has the RIGHT to openly Breast feed in public. But that does not mean I also cannot lear at her big B00bies as well. If she is offended by that, then let her breast feed her Baby at home, or in a more private setting. Same for Transgenders, if they still have the Male/Female parts that they were born with, and they don't wanna use the public bathroom of their Born gender...then let them relieve themselves at Home.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 01:59 PM
Well all I can say is if this Law was put in without a State wide vote by the people of NC...then I am against it. But, to not put it to a vote because people out there think it is discriminating....well that is totally wrong.
The people have the final say. I understand that Transgenders are born the way they are, and that they feel like they are the other sex...no matter what Organs they have. And maybe they don't have the money, or Insurance to get the operation and Hormones to change their sex. But that should not be the other people of NC problem.


Look, I accept the fact that a woman who just gave birth has the RIGHT to openly Breast feed in public. But that does not mean I also cannot lear at her big B00bies as well. If she is offended by that, then let her breast feed her Baby at home, or in a more private setting. Same for Transgenders, if they still have the Male/Female parts that they were born with, and they don't wanna use the public bathroom of their Born gender...then let them relieve themselves at Home.

I guess I don't get why people think transgender people using whichever bathroom matches their gender is such a burden for the rest of America. You wouldn't want someone telling you you can only go to the bathroom at home or have no choice but to use the opposite bathroom. Why should transgendered people have it any different? Just deal with it. It's not like you have to change anything.

The law was proposed by a state senator and voted on by the state legislature. There was no statewide vote by the people as far as I know.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:02 PM
I think its insulting to lump transexuals into the gay community too. Gays say they are born gay not by choice, if thats the case then you can't choose to be a man or woman you are born that way.

Trans people say they were born that way too. It's their body that is wrong, not their mind.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 02:06 PM
I guess I don't get why people think transgender people using whichever bathroom matches their gender is such a burden for the rest of America. You wouldn't want someone telling you you can only go to the bathroom at home or have no choice but to use the opposite bathroom. Why should transgendered people have it any different? Just deal with it. It's not like you have to change anything.

The law was proposed by a state senator and voted on by the state legislature. There was no statewide vote by the people as far as I know.



The problem with your analogy is that at HOME...it is a PRIVATE Bathroom. Only used by ONE person at a time. At a restaurant or at a Sporting venue, the Bathroom is NOT a Private one...but PUBLIC. I mean you do know the difference don't you ? The complaint by Transgenders not being allowed to use whatever PUBLIC Bathroom they want is no different then a VEGAN going into a McDonalds,,,ordering a Salad...but insisting that everyone else eating those HORRIBLE Big Macs and what not have to eat them in another area...because it offends the Vegan ? In other words that would be ridiculous. So to is it ridiculous for a Transgender to think that they're being discriminated against because a man who should have been born a Woman has to use the Male Bathroom.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 02:07 PM
Okay then the NBA should boycott sanctuary cities as well.

I fail to see your logic. The NBA is free to choose what city it wants to have the ASG in and is allowed to use whatever legal criteria it wants in choosing so. Rewarding a state that wants to discriminate against some of the NBA's employees is a bad message to send to its employees as well as fans. If it wants to create the perception that it's an okay work environment for LGBT people and thinks LGBT people should be treated without discrimination, going elsewhere with the ASG is the smart thing to do.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 02:13 PM
I fail to see your logic. The NBA is free to choose what city it wants to have the ASG in and is allowed to use whatever legal criteria it wants in choosing so. Rewarding a state that wants to discriminate against some of the NBA's employees is a bad message to send to its employees as well as fans. If it wants to create the perception that it's an okay work environment for LGBT people and thinks LGBT people should be treated without discrimination, going elsewhere with the ASG is the smart thing to do.

Of course the NBA is free to do what it wants I just think it should be their conscience decision not done b/c they fear boycotts.

Sanctuary cities are a lot more dangerous than whatever you want to call these towns/states.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:14 PM
If you cannot see the difference between handicapped people and transexuals then that is on you.

Actually I'm afraid it's on them. As someone else mentioned in this thread some doctors have classified body dismorphia as an illness, just as doctors have classified muscular dystrophy as an illness. One person requires a wheel chair the other doesn't but both have what is called special needs.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 02:16 PM
The problem with your analogy is that at HOME...it is a PRIVATE Bathroom. Only used by ONE person at a time. At a restaurant or at a Sporting venue, the Bathroom is NOT a Private one...but PUBLIC. I mean you do know the difference don't you ? The complaint by Transgenders not being allowed to use whatever PUBLIC Bathroom they want is no different then a VEGAN going into a McDonalds,,,ordering a Salad...but insisting that everyone else eating those HORRIBLE Big Macs and what not have to eat them in another area...because it offends the Vegan ? In other words that would be ridiculous. So to is it ridiculous for a Transgender to think that they're being discriminated against because a man who should have been born a Woman has to use the Male Bathroom.

So transgender people should never travel? Never go 30 minutes away from home? What about jobs then? Employers are going to let their employees travel home to go to the bathroom? Do you realize how moronic that sounds?

Your analogy is not only ludicrous but also not even applicable. No one is forcing non-transgender people to do anything other than continue on like normal when a transgender person uses the bathroom. No ones making you switch bathrooms or eat salads or whatever - only just ****ing deal with someone who might not look like you using the same bathroom. The horror!

lavell12
03-25-2016, 02:16 PM
Actually I'm afraid it's on them. As someone else mentioned in this thread some doctors have classified body dismorphia as an illness, just as doctors have classified muscular dystrophy as an illness. One person requires a wheel chair the other doesn't but both have what is called special needs.

gotcha. but there has to be a tipping point where a line has to be drawn.

Raidaz4Life
03-25-2016, 02:18 PM
A powerful organization like the NBA has the ability to influence positive social change. This isn't a political issue, its a human rights issue.

It really isnt.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 02:20 PM
It really isnt.

exactly this is insulting to people who truly are being discriminated against.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:20 PM
Well all I can say is if this Law was put in without a State wide vote by the people of NC...then I am against it. But, to not put it to a vote because people out there think it is discriminating....well that is totally wrong.
The people have the final say. I understand that Transgenders are born the way they are, and that they feel like they are the other sex...no matter what Organs they have. And maybe they don't have the money, or Insurance to get the operation and Hormones to change their sex. But that should not be the other people of NC problem.


Look, I accept the fact that a woman who just gave birth has the RIGHT to openly Breast feed in public. But that does not mean I also cannot lear at her big B00bies as well. If she is offended by that, then let her breast feed her Baby at home, or in a more private setting. Same for Transgenders, if they still have the Male/Female parts that they were born with, and they don't wanna use the public bathroom of their Born gender...then let them relieve themselves at Home.

I agree, but I wouldn't want people peering around trying to see under the coverup my sister uses when she's got them melons out for lunch time even if she is in public and she has every right to feel uncomfortable with someone leering at her. :)

I think the issue is not the trans people themselves feeling comfortable but the other people in the bathroom AND the trans people. If you take someone who looks female in a mini-skirt and put them at a urinal it's going to make other men in the room uncomfortable, just like the opposite in the women's bathroom. There is no easy solution. The number of people effected by a trans person in a bathroom is least if they are allowed to use the room designated for their appearance not based on what is in their pants.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 02:22 PM
to set the record straight on this issue I live in NC and think it is a stupid law b/c as a real conservative I don't think its an issue the gov't should be involved in but on the other hand I don't think its a major issue that should be getting this much attention. I oppose the law but think it isn't a big deal either.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:25 PM
In theory that sounds great but in practice it is terrible. I used to live in California where they put a lot of issues on the ballot and it is a huge mistake b/c voters don't at all take cost into account. You basically have people voting as if what they are getting they don't have to pay for.

Yup, and I HAAAAAAAAAAATE it. But if every decision was left up to the public I bet more people would pay more attention and bad laws that are enacted would quickly be voted out too.

Lobbyists and politicians have managed to keep zero based budgeting off of the ballots ... if everything was voted on then that would have to be too. Then the budget would have to be voted on and every line in it.

You will note that I didn't say it would be good if everyone voted on everything, I said it would be interesting. You know the apocryphal "Chinese Cures", "May you live in interesting times" ... well, I'm a minarchist and I don't see me getting my way so might as well make things interesting along the way.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:26 PM
Don't think so.

I know when I was a dumb boob obsessed 13 year old I'd consider telling people I identified as female if it let me use the girls locker room.

The only real solution is that in the long run every bathroom will be unisex.

Also, "transsexual" is not the preferred term anymore. Transgendered people is the preferred term.

Transexual refers to post op
Transgender refers to pre op

- Source = Im a transgender undergoing HRT myself
As for this issue im glad it sounds like the NBA might be helping along progress here.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:28 PM
to set the record straight on this issue I live in NC and think it is a stupid law b/c as a real conservative I don't think its an issue the gov't should be involved in but on the other hand I don't think its a major issue that should be getting this much attention. I oppose the law but think it isn't a big deal either.

It would be alot bigger of a deal if you where transgender you have no idea how something as simple as what bathroom you use can affect your day its the little things like that that make us feel accepted and not abnormal or anything of that nature.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 02:30 PM
So transgender people should never travel? Never go 30 minutes away from home? What about jobs then? Employers are going to let their employees travel home to go to the bathroom? Do you realize how moronic that sounds?

Your analogy is not only ludicrous but also not even applicable. No one is forcing non-transgender people to do anything other than continue on like normal when a transgender person uses the bathroom. No ones making you switch bathrooms or eat salads or whatever - only just ****ing deal with someone who might not look like you using the same bathroom. The horror!



What does being a transgender have anything to do with peeing ? or going number 2. And as for your statement that no one is forcing Non-Transgenders into doing anything that is not normal, well a person with Male parts or female parts being asked to go to the bathroom of their BORN genders...how is that unnormal ?


If this is allowed, then anyone, even a NORMAL person can just go into a Ladies Bathroom, and just insist..Oh, I am transgender just to get a look, or secretly video the women, ect. But, as long as Males...no matter what they feel like or what they should have been born like...if they have Male parts, if they each go to their assigned public bathrooms, that never becomes an issue. I mean WTF dude. I don't see this being a huge discrimination Issue.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:30 PM
I agree, but I wouldn't want people peering around trying to see under the coverup my sister uses when she's got them melons out for lunch time even if she is in public and she has every right to feel uncomfortable with someone leering at her. :)

I think the issue is not the trans people themselves feeling comfortable but the other people in the bathroom AND the trans people. If you take someone who looks female in a mini-skirt and put them at a urinal it's going to make other men in the room uncomfortable, just like the opposite in the women's bathroom. There is no easy solution. The number of people effected by a trans person in a bathroom is least if they are allowed to use the room designated for their appearance not based on what is in their pants.

although cringeworthy in some places this is the most sensible response i have seen on the subject.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 02:31 PM
Of course the NBA is free to do what it wants I just think it should be their conscience decision not done b/c they fear boycotts.

Sanctuary cities are a lot more dangerous than whatever you want to call these towns/states.

I mean, this could easily be a decision of conscience.

lavell12
03-25-2016, 02:33 PM
I mean, this could easily be a decision of conscience.

probably about the money though if there is a real boycott.

Sly Guy
03-25-2016, 02:34 PM
Call me whatever, but I don't understand how this law is discriminatory. The law isn't about maltreatment to me, it's about avoiding confrontation and situations. I don't agree with the NBA either way since the team, arena owner, etc may not agree anyway.


True story of my somewhat direct experience with this issue.

TL;DR: Brother faced situation of maybe getting fired of letting trans employee use female restroom.

I worked in a retail store chain the same as my brother. I worked with a guy for a couple months. He quits, comes back a year later, they rehire him, at a different store where my brother was a department manager, except now he wants to be called "Christina". My brother asks more if I remember working with a "Chris" and tells me about this situation how his store manager decided to rehire him. Now, I never saw him in his new 'form' but my brother says he looked just like a man with a wig and makeup on. From what I knew about him from working with him, this guy was a regular guy-looking guy. If that makes it any clearer, my point is I don't see how he could try to pass for a woman.

Anyway, fast-forward a couple weeks and he tells me he is the lucky shift manager to get some customer who chews him out about a "man" in the women's restroom and how unsafe she feels, and about "what if her daughter was alone in there". My brother tells me he literally just had to shut his mouth and say nothing. He didn't want to side with the customer or the employee because he didn't know which way which would fall. He told me he gave her the company line "I understand your concern and will address upper management". If he sides with the employee maybe customer gets angry and tries to sue for some type of privacy violation or sexual assault or who knows which. If he sides with the customer, maybe he makes the 7:00 news and the company has an LGBT protest in front of the store. Even with him doing basically nothing he was telling me how nervous he was about the situation.

Sorry man, I have no hate, ill will, or anything for anyone who disagrees, but no manager should be put in those tough situations. Worrying about potentially losing a job over some BS like that is totally unnecessary.

amen. That's exactly how I felt dealing with the situation on my own. You're caught between a rock and a hard place, and the only thing wrong' you've done is shown up to work.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:36 PM
gotcha. but there has to be a tipping point where a line has to be drawn.

But why here? There is no way everyone will ever be comfortable in their public lives. My wife gets upset in large crowds, I don't care. My brother doesn't like the piss troughs at the stadium, he finds them gross and unsanitary, I don't care. My mother doesn't like people driving faster than the limit, I don't care. I don't like people driving below the limit, My mother doesn't care. We will never make everyone comfortable, but in this case allowing people to use the bathroom that matches their outward appearance is the least disruptive. And if someone is not sure what category to put the person in the next stall in, then fine someone will be uncomfortable. That's life.

I have a huge pole and don't want others to feel inferior so I use a stall rather than the urinal ... should I be forced to make all other men in the bathroom feel less masculine?

The issue with the law is that it is about not making laws. Being a minarchist I support a state's rights to have different approaches to life and law, so while I feel bad for the people who will suffer because of this law I support NCs choice to enact it. But they should also be aware that the law is going to cost them some business and that is also fine.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:38 PM
It isn't discriminatory, transexuals make up about 0.1% of the population. They are the ones seeking special treatment. Sorry but 99.9% of the population should not have to change b/c of 0.1% of the population has a mental disorder (yes various doctors have concluded it is a mental disorder).

I dont care what doctors have to say doctors are not the ones feeling and dealing with the issue on a day to day basis there not the ones looking in the mirror and wanting to cry hell there not the ones trying to hide who they are for large chunks of there lives because they know people will alienate them
as to your other comment its been proven transgender people are born that way its a result of certain hormone changes in the brain late in development not long before birth.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 02:39 PM
But why here? There is no way everyone will ever be comfortable in their public lives. My wife gets upset in large crowds, I don't care. My brother doesn't like the piss troughs at the stadium, he finds them gross and unsanitary, I don't care. My mother doesn't like people driving faster than the limit, I don't care. I don't like people driving below the limit, My mother doesn't care. We will never make everyone comfortable, but in this case allowing people to use the bathroom that matches their outward appearance is the least disruptive. And if someone is not sure what category to put the person in the next stall in, then fine someone will be uncomfortable. That's life.

I have a huge pole and don't want others too feel inferior so I use a stall rather than the urinal ... should I be forced to make all other men in the bathroom feel less masculine?

The issue with the law is that it is about not making laws. Being a minarchist I support a state's rights to have different approaches to life and law, so while I feel bad for the people who will suffer because of this law I support NCs choice to enact it. But they should also be aware that the law is going to cost them some business and that is also fine.




I agree with you and all that you stated. And thanks BTW for using that stall " John Holmes "...I already feel sad enough in my Daily life :-(

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:39 PM
Transexual refers to post op
Transgender refers to pre op

- Source = Im a transgender undergoing HRT myself
As for this issue im glad it sounds like the NBA might be helping along progress here.

Really? I feel kind of how I felt the day I learned "gay" only meant men and not women. I'd seen LOTS of women in the "gay pride parade" ... no wonder they all seemed so angry about the "penis-control" of the parade :)

My pre-op friend either didn't know or never told me when we talked about it.

Thanks for the info.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 02:40 PM
What does being a transgender have anything to do with peeing ? or going number 2. And as for your statement that no one is forcing Non-Transgenders into doing anything that is not normal, well a person with Male parts or female parts being asked to go to the bathroom of their BORN genders...how is that unnormal ?


If this is allowed, then anyone, even a NORMAL person can just go into a Ladies Bathroom, and just insist..Oh, I am transgender just to get a look, or secretly video the women, ect. But, as long as Males...no matter what they feel like or what they should have been born like...if they have Male parts, if they each go to their assigned public bathrooms, that never becomes an issue. I mean WTF dude. I don't see this being a huge discrimination Issue.

They aren't the gender that their sex indicates though. If they feel like they're a woman, it would be not normal for them to use a men's room. Not that hard to grasp.

And I'm pretty sure that nowhere in any law proposed about this is anyone trying to make video taping someone in the restroom legal, so that's not even relevant. It's staying illegal either way.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:41 PM
I hooked up my wife's subaru engine with a tranny a couple months back, had to lube up the shaft first ... slotted together like they were made for each other and working just fine ever since. Don't dis it till you try it. :)

"Tranny" is a term for a transvestite not a transgendered person ... and they prefer cross dresser. I knew a cross dresser years ago and he was as much a poon hound as anyone. He wouldn't want himself let loose in a woman's restroom either :)

Oh, and the law isn't about "hooking up" ... that's illegal in public pretty much everywhere regardless of your sexual identification or that of your partner.

Cross Dressers and Transsexuals are not the same thing.
Transsexual as i said before is a post op transgender but that's an easy mistake to make i guess.
At least you appear to be trying to be sensitive about the issues themselves.
But the word your thinking of for public cross dressers is drag queens.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:44 PM
It would be alot bigger of a deal if you where transgender you have no idea how something as simple as what bathroom you use can affect your day its the little things like that that make us feel accepted and not abnormal or anything of that nature.

It's a huge task just to leave the house some days, so I sympathize.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:44 PM
although cringeworthy in some places this is the most sensible response i have seen on the subject.

The cringe was intentional :) Know your audience.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 02:51 PM
Cross Dressers and Transsexuals are not the same thing.
Transsexual as i said before is a post op transgender but that's an easy mistake to make i guess.
At least you appear to be trying to be sensitive about the issues themselves.
But the word your thinking of for public cross dressers is drag queens.

Okay ... I didn't say transsexual ... I said transvestite.

I wouldn't call Eddie Izzard a drag queen.

And I know a sometimes cross dresser and she is no drag queen. :)

There are some advantages in living in the SF Bay Area when it comes to culture.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 02:55 PM
Okay ... I didn't say transsexual ... I said transvestite.

I wouldn't call Eddie Izzard a drag queen.

And I know a sometimes cross dresser and she is no drag queen. :)

There are some advantages in living in the SF Bay Area when it comes to culture.

Fair enough :P
I'm not trying to overgeneralize here myself just making sure everyone has a solid idea of the terms and such.
Does anyone know the specifics of this law by the way i saw from some posts earlier that it was not just a bathroom issue and there where implications outside of it? Mabye i should look this stuff up xD.

Tony_Starks
03-25-2016, 02:57 PM
I SO feel like this topic could be summarized so much better with a good Southpark episode....

Or better yet a Chappelle Show skit!

Scoots
03-25-2016, 03:02 PM
I SO feel like this topic could be summarized so much better with a good Southpark episode....

Or better yet a Chappelle Show skit!

Strange to say it but I think South Park has the sensitivity to do a good job at it ... I'm not so sure about Chappelle.

JLynn943
03-25-2016, 03:07 PM
Fair enough :P
I'm not trying to overgeneralize here myself just making sure everyone has a solid idea of the terms and such.
Does anyone know the specifics of this law by the way i saw from some posts earlier that it was not just a bathroom issue and there where implications outside of it? Mabye i should look this stuff up xD.

It doesn't let anti-discrimination bills that would protect LGBT people get passed by local/city governments. One of the cities tried to pass LGBT protection, which prompted this law in retaliation to negate it and prevent it from happening again.

Vincent
03-25-2016, 03:07 PM
I SO feel like this topic could be summarized so much better with a good Southpark episode....

Or better yet a Chappelle Show skit!

Lol they actually have an episode about it called "the Sissy"

Gander13SM
03-25-2016, 03:15 PM
This is the same country where Donald Trump legitimately has a chance of becoming president, the collective stupidity and ignorance never ceases to amaze me.


Anyway, quick question; How would they know?

If you're using a stall nobody is going to know, especially if you LOOK male/female. If you're blatantly a man walking into a female bathroom then okay I get it. But if you look convincingly like a women do you really think anyone is going to stop you and say "wait up, you have some masculine features, are you sure you're not a man?"

Come on. And that B.S about your birth certificate? So you all carry those around with you now do you? So the toilet attendant can check if you are the gender you claim to be. They checking everyones before they get in the room?

Nobody is ever going to know.


Anyway, if they have a penis they use the mens, if they have a vagina they use the womens. This isn't difficult.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 03:18 PM
Okay so on the flip side, lets say I have a son who is 14 and transgender, does that mean at High School, after Gym he has the right to use the girls locker room ? Where females are totally undressed in public view ? I mean to me that is the same thing as letting them use a bathroom of the other gender. How many here with teenage High school girls would not have an issue with that ?

Scoots
03-25-2016, 03:22 PM
Okay so on the flip side, lets say I have a son who is 14 and transgender, does that mean at High School, after Gym he has the right to use the girls locker room ? Where females are totally undressed in public view ? I mean to me that is the same thing as letting them use a bathroom of the other gender. How many here with teenage High school girls would not have an issue with that ?

I have a friend who works with "needs" kids in a local school district in the SF Bay Area and believe me there are all kinds of concessions made. They can't limit it to LGBT they just call it "fluid" and if you don't fit A or B then you get a private room. The biggest issue I have with any special treatment is that now there is a problem where kids are taking advantage of it to get the private room. But all that is resolved when eventually all public bathrooms are unisex.

krazylegz
03-25-2016, 03:25 PM
SO WAIT!!....if i want to sneak into the ladies room to perv out,all i have to do is identify as a woman??....dude,iam aaaaalllll in

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 03:28 PM
SO WAIT!!....if i want to sneak into the ladies room to perv out,all i have to do is identify as a woman??....dude,iam aaaaalllll in


And that is what worries me. What if a man, says he is transgender. Goes into a ladies room with a hidden video camera, and then uploads that tape on you tube ?

Vincent
03-25-2016, 03:36 PM
And that is what worries me. What if a man, says he is transgender. Goes into a ladies room with a hidden video camera, and then uploads that tape on you tube ?

I mean what's stopping straight women from doing that as well?

Alayla
03-25-2016, 03:37 PM
Lol they actually have an episode about it called "the Sissy"

Just went and watched it interesting episode xD Cartman is a dick though.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 03:41 PM
I mean what's stopping straight women from doing that as well?



Nothing. And that too would be just as egregious.

Alayla
03-25-2016, 03:43 PM
Okay so on the flip side, lets say I have a son who is 14 and transgender, does that mean at High School, after Gym he has the right to use the girls locker room ? Where females are totally undressed in public view ? I mean to me that is the same thing as letting them use a bathroom of the other gender. How many here with teenage High school girls would not have an issue with that ?

Well first and foremost if you had a "son" who was transgender you would have a daughter not a son but i understand where your coming from to a certain extent.

But if we are going to make arguments like this are we just going to start giving gay and lesbian people separate bathrooms too? What about people feeling uncomfortable from being leered at in the bathroom by the same sex?
We can talk about discomfort until the eagles choke but that isn't going to solve anything in reality.

TheIlladelph16
03-25-2016, 03:44 PM
And that is what worries me. What if a man, says he is transgender. Goes into a ladies room with a hidden video camera, and then uploads that tape on you tube ?

What's to stop any creep from literally doing that now? The idea that this law now opens the flood gates for the completely made up millions of pervs just aching to get into the other genders' bathroom is insane. People are going to do that **** regardless and should be dealt with accordingly when/if it happens.

I honestly don't see why adult bathrooms aren't "co-ed" already. The only time I would hesitate is with teenagers and school locker rooms, which would be a more delicate situation to sort out.

The bathroom thing though isn't even the worst part of the bill, yet it seems to be the only thing people want to focus on. It completely negates the cities of NC ability to pass anti-discrimination laws for LGBTs, which is absolutely insane.

basketballkitty
03-25-2016, 03:51 PM
Well first and foremost if you had a "son" who was transgender you would have a daughter not a son but i understand where your coming from to a certain extent.

But if we are going to make arguments like this are we just going to start giving gay and lesbian people separate bathrooms too? What about people feeling uncomfortable from being leered at in the bathroom by the same sex?
We can talk about discomfort until the eagles choke but that isn't going to solve anything in reality.




I don't want Transgenders to have their own seperate bathroom, and have them singled out. I just think until they have the surgery to make them the sex that they feel they should have been born with that they use the bathroom that their naturally born sex says that what they are. This is not a discrimination thing. Just a being fair thing to me. But I agree that there is no easy answer or solution.

Tony_Starks
03-25-2016, 03:54 PM
Lol they actually have an episode about it called "the Sissy"


Oh snap, gotta check that out!


At the end of the day it's all about money.

The NBA can't afford to look intolerant so they will make a public poster about the law and threaten to take the allstar game away.

In turn Charlotte can't afford the economic hit of losing allstar weekend so they will rectify the law to please the LGBTQ ( what does the Q stand for btw?) community.

The money keeps flowing...everyone is happy....and when you go to the urinals keep your eyes on your own willy.

And to all a good night!

Scoots
03-25-2016, 04:03 PM
What's to stop any creep from literally doing that now? The idea that this law now opens the flood gates for the completely made up millions of pervs just aching to get into the other genders' bathroom is insane. People are going to do that **** regardless and should be dealt with accordingly when/if it happens.

I honestly don't see why adult bathrooms aren't "co-ed" already. The only time I would hesitate is with teenagers and school locker rooms, which would be a more delicate situation to sort out.

The bathroom thing though isn't even the worst part of the bill, yet it seems to be the only thing people want to focus on. It completely negates the cities of NC ability to pass anti-discrimination laws for LGBTs, which is absolutely insane.

Too f'n true.

I was at a park with my daughters and went to use the bathroom, there was a mother waiting outside for her son. I went in and he was trying to use an adult urinal because, I assumed, he had not seen the lower urinal past all the little divider walls and he was on his toes and trying to stretch his fellow up so he could pee in the urinal. I pointed out the urinal at the end, his eyes got big, the color left his face and he ran out of the bathroom for Mommy. I felt like a child molester ... I quickly peed and went out, the woman was not there and I have no idea if she went looking for an authority or a mob to deal with me. If the bathrooms were unisex (co-ed) it would not have been an issue.

I've used women's bathrooms when I needed to, and I've had my daughters in men's bathrooms ... as the book says everybody poops. We should get over this idea that anyone is somehow all that different.

ghettosean
03-25-2016, 04:39 PM
And that is what worries me. What if a man, says he is transgender. Goes into a ladies room with a hidden video camera, and then uploads that tape on you tube ?

What's to stop any creep from literally doing that now? The idea that this law now opens the flood gates for the completely made up millions of pervs just aching to get into the other genders' bathroom is insane. People are going to do that **** regardless and should be dealt with accordingly when/if it happens.

I honestly don't see why adult bathrooms aren't "co-ed" already. The only time I would hesitate is with teenagers and school locker rooms, which would be a more delicate situation to sort out.

The bathroom thing though isn't even the worst part of the bill, yet it seems to be the only thing people want to focus on. It completely negates the cities of NC ability to pass anti-discrimination laws for LGBTs, which is absolutely insane.

I could see Rape and sexual harassment sky rocket if this was passed in the US. I'd love to see the before and after stats of something like that.

ManningToTyree
03-25-2016, 04:50 PM
we are talking post-op right?

Does this really matter? Haha kind of. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable sending my little cousin in to use the restroom if there is a woman with a penis in there.

I have no issue with the LGBT community and whatever lifestyle you live but your genitals should determine what restroom you go in.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 05:06 PM
kind of. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable sending my little cousin in to use the restroom if there is a woman with a penis in there.

I have no issue with the LGBT community and whatever lifestyle you live but your genitals should determine what restroom you go in.

How often are your genitals used in public interactions? Not often at all for me.

Scoots
03-25-2016, 05:10 PM
I could see Rape and sexual harassment sky rocket if this was passed in the US. I'd love to see the before and after stats of something like that.

Nothing keeping rapists from going into women's bathrooms now. Rapists are not adhering to the law already I'm fairly sure the sign on the door isn't stopping them.

Harassment is a different matter, but with unisex bathrooms the shared public areas could (and often do) have cameras while the private stalls would not.

lamzoka
03-25-2016, 05:47 PM
**** that. I don't want a woman pretending to be a man coming in the men's washroom. And I know plenty of women that would be extremely disturbed with a man pretending to be a woman walking in their bathroom or locker rooms. Just an absolute mockery. The fact that you all still try to fight for what's politically correct or claim they were "born like this" just makes me laugh.

+1


This whole ****ing thing is a big ****ing joke bro. But I'm just gonna sip on this cup of tea

Tony_Starks
03-25-2016, 05:53 PM
+1


This whole ****ing thing is a big ****ing joke bro. But I'm just gonna sip on this cup of tea



Sounds like me at work.

Anytime they bring up gay rights or Donald Trump I'm like "soooooo.....what's everybody doing for lunch!" Lol

goingfor28
03-26-2016, 12:40 AM
I don't see the big deal of the law. Who's to say some guy who truly identifies as a guy doesn't start going into women's restrooms just because he can, and vice versa. Kind of hard to police this.

5ass
03-26-2016, 12:49 AM
Just wondering. If a trans woman (not sure if that's the correct terminology, what I mean is a male to female trans) tries to join the WNBA, will they let "her".

goingfor28
03-26-2016, 02:26 AM
How bout we just have 3 bathrooms everywhere

Men's
Women's
Transgendered

Problem solved.

soundjunkies2
03-26-2016, 02:34 AM
I don't see the big deal of the law. Who's to say some guy who truly identifies as a guy doesn't start going into women's restrooms just because he can, and vice versa. Kind of hard to police this.

The law is much more than that though. This thread is hung up on that portion and no one likes using google to really figure it out. It allows for discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation. Basically, you can have a sign outside your business that says "No gays allowed" and it's completely fine.

goingfor28
03-26-2016, 03:41 AM
The law is much more than that though. This thread is hung up on that portion and no one likes using google to really figure it out. It allows for discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation. Basically, you can have a sign outside your business that says "No gays allowed" and it's completely fine.
So? If it's MY business, I should have that right, no matter if it's morally correct.
If I walked into a store and was told I can't shop there bc I'm white I'd laugh and leave. People need to not be so damn sensitive.

goingfor28
03-26-2016, 03:50 AM
The law is much more than that though. This thread is hung up on that portion and no one likes using google to really figure it out. It allows for discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation. Basically, you can have a sign outside your business that says "No gays allowed" and it's completely fine.
So? If it's MY business, I should have that right, no matter if it's morally correct.
If I walked into a store and was told I can't shop there bc I'm white I'd laugh and leave. People need to not be so damn sensitive.

Alayla
03-26-2016, 10:46 AM
Just wondering. If a trans woman (not sure if that's the correct terminology, what I mean is a male to female trans) tries to join the WNBA, will they let "her".

If she started HRT in her early teens then techinally yes. At least from somthing i read on the subject many years ago who knows if its different now.

(Not that that would give you nearly as much advantage as people think even if you could because HRT makes you hormonally equivalent to a natural born woman over time anyway.)
I can still see the argument for not allowing it if you started to late.

But on the flip side of that coin in the majority of cases its not legal to start HRT until your 18 so the functional answer is no because the chances of being a special case AND happening to be a basketball player are so low the odds of a transsexual in the WNBA are effectively null.

Alayla
03-26-2016, 10:52 AM
So? If it's MY business, I should have that right, no matter if it's morally correct.
If I walked into a store and was told I can't shop there bc I'm white I'd laugh and leave. People need to not be so damn sensitive.

Martin Luther King Jr must be turning in his grave at this comment.
But in all seriousness though its situations like this that slowly strip peoples freedom away its easy to think eh its not my problem.
But the more you think its not your problem and don't fight these things the more rights people lose.
Eventually you will lose something you personally care about and it wont be everyone else problem.
I hope everyone comes to understand that this is a very important issue.

Scoots
03-26-2016, 11:49 AM
Martin Luther King Jr must be turning in his grave at this comment.
But in all seriousness though its situations like this that slowly strip peoples freedom away its easy to think eh its not my problem.
But the more you think its not your problem and don't fight these things the more rights people lose.
Eventually you will lose something you personally care about and it wont be everyone else problem.
I hope everyone comes to understand that this is a very important issue.

Exactly right. I don't remember who said it, but there is a quote I know "The road to Auschwitz was paved with apathy" ... people not standing up for people different from themselves have lead to the worst atrocities in human history. In retrospect it's always much cheaper to respect people than to dismiss them.

Unisex bathrooms are the cheapest option and would work the best for literally everyone.

beasted86
03-26-2016, 12:34 PM
Exactly right. I don't remember who said it, but there is a quote I know "The road to Auschwitz was paved with apathy" ... people not standing up for people different from themselves have lead to the worst atrocities in human history. In retrospect it's always much cheaper to respect people than to dismiss them.

Unisex bathrooms are the cheapest option and would work the best for literally everyone.

You really think building a stall is "cheaper" than a urinal?

You do understand that the reason for the longer wait lines in women's bathrooms are because stalls take up more square footage than a urinal and there are less places to go, right?

At the end of the day businesses need a law like this because 1) male/female privacy does matter to most people, 2) many companies refuse to make written policies regarding these issues out of fear of the extremists of either side who will turn bathroom use into a political talking point.

I think people need to get over this because it isn't about mistreatment. The men and the women's bathrooms are typically equally upheld and clean/dirty. This is simply a law to avoid confrontation and lawsuits. I like it because it removes ownership of a "stance" on the issue, you just say "it's the law" and go right on earning your paycheck or running your company without fear or an LGBT or religious zealot protest or tarnished reputation with 10,000 likes to some Facebook post claiming "X" happened in your store and it needs to be boycotted. And it's always polarizing to the extreme. Either you hate LGBT or you are sinners with no morals.

People want to turn the law into a human rights issue of "right to choose gender" when it doesn't have to be any of that. Companies without a policy and employees who work for those companies simply trying to make money won't feel the threat of becoming "political" over something like bathroom use.

Scoots
03-26-2016, 12:59 PM
You really think building a stall is "cheaper" than a urinal?

You do understand that the reason for the longer wait lines in women's bathrooms are because stalls take up more square footage than a urinal and there are less places to go, right?

At the end of the day businesses need a law like this because 1) male/female privacy does matter to most people, 2) many companies refuse to make written policies regarding these issues out of fear of the extremists of either side who will turn bathroom use into a political talking point.

I think people need to get over this because it isn't about mistreatment. The men and the women's bathrooms are typically equally upheld and clean/dirty. This is simply a law to avoid confrontation and lawsuits. I like it because it removes ownership of a "stance" on the issue, you just say "it's the law" and go right on earning your paycheck or running your company without fear or an LGBT or religious zealot protest or tarnished reputation with 10,000 likes to some Facebook post claiming "X" happened in your store and it needs to be boycotted. And it's always polarizing to the extreme. Either you hate LGBT or you are sinners with no morals.

People want to turn the law into a human rights issue of "right to choose gender" when it doesn't have to be any of that. Companies without a policy and employees who work for those companies simply trying to make money won't feel the threat of becoming "political" over something like bathroom use.

I think building a single larger bathroom is considerably cheaper than building 2 bathrooms, yes.

Women are slower because of a lot of reasons, one being that they sit down, one being that they tend to have more stuff with them. Men peeing in a stall vs peeing in a urinal there is not much speed difference. If the facility needs more bathrooms it needs more bathrooms ... unisex has very little to do with that.

This law does not allow people to say "it's the law", it precludes the creation of a law. It leaves things murkier not clearer.

There is no way of skipping around this issue. There will continue to be people who are different and other people who care how they are treated and how they interact. The only solution is to codify how those interactions are to work. This is no different than the homosexual issue, it makes some people uncomfortable and everyone had to deal with that, and, I believe, it's now federal law. This issue is just the next one down the line.

I would much prefer people were adults about how they deal with things and not so litigeous, but unfortunately that's not the society we are living in yet.

lamzoka
03-26-2016, 01:08 PM
Just wondering. If a trans woman (not sure if that's the correct terminology, what I mean is a male to female trans) tries to join the WNBA, will they let "her".

good question. Would they let bruce jenner aka caitlyn jenner play in the wnba?

but then again most wnba players look like transgenders anyway

beasted86
03-26-2016, 02:41 PM
I think building a single larger bathroom is considerably cheaper than building 2 bathrooms, yes.
I'm not sure if I break it down in financially it would prevent you from overriding facts to meet your opinion. Whether it's one room or two rooms, a bathroom stall costs more to build than a urinal, and has more ongoing cost since it uses more water. And I'm talking about a traditional urinal. If I went into environmental waterless urinals then it just becomes a joke. Urinals take up less square feet. These are common sense facts.




Women are slower because of a lot of reasons, one being that they sit down, one being that they tend to have more stuff with them. Men peeing in a stall vs peeing in a urinal there is not much speed difference. If the facility needs more bathrooms it needs more bathrooms ... unisex has very little to do with that.
Square footage is square footage. A stall has a larger footprint. Some places even cut costs and corners and don't provide urinal dividers. Saving more space and money. They will in fact have less restroom spaces to use and longer lines.


This law does not allow people to say "it's the law", it precludes the creation of a law. It leaves things murkier not clearer.
False. To me the bathroom law is clear and as an addition precludes segregating transsexual or transgender into yet another protected class for lawsuits. I never thought I would sound so Republican, but the last thing any business needs is another protected class. It's just another loophole people can use to sue. Age, race, color, national origin, religion, gender, disability, veteran status, pregnancy status, the whole HIPAA, I mean damn man. Everyone can claim something, even if they have to reach.



There is no way of skipping around this issue. There will continue to be people who are different and other people who care how they are treated and how they interact. The only solution is to codify how those interactions are to work. This is no different than the homosexual issue, it makes some people uncomfortable and everyone had to deal with that, and, I believe, it's now federal law. This issue is just the next one down the line.

I would much prefer people were adults about how they deal with things and not so litigeous, but unfortunately that's not the society we are living in yet.
This isn't skipping around the issue, it's setting the policy across the board straight. Whatever is on your birth certificate is your gender. Use the bathroom assigned to the gender on your birth certificate. If you believe the gender on your certificate is wrong, take the necessary steps to change it. Simple, cut and dry policy. Allows me to run a business or work for one without taking a stance. If anyone is discriminating against anyone it was the hospital that delivered you. Leaves the businesses out of it.

I feel laws like this are necessary to protect customers and employees from a potential fallout. Like what would apply to my story on the first page, if either party made a big fuss about it, the company always uses the employee left holding the grenade. One way or another you either lacked sensitivity training or failed to effectively defuse a situation. One way or another it gives them an easy out to fire you and save face. If you fight it and try and sue or go to the news station you're branded for life as a whistleblower.

And let's be at least a little bit realistic. Universal unisex bathrooms will absolutely never happen since no bathroom I've ever seen has a video camera. Peeping Tom and sexual assault claims will go through the roof.

Scoots
03-26-2016, 03:31 PM
If there was a single bathroom you could get by with the same total number of stalls as currently are spread between two bathrooms, urinals would not be needed, occupancy on average would go up. The vast majority of bathrooms operate far below capacity the vast majority of the time ... stadiums would be a different story of course, but this isn't just about stadiums. Square footage is square footage and 1 larger bathroom would take less square footage than 2.

It's my understanding from what I've read about the law that it does not codify what is and is not legal, it rather strikes down any specific protections for the LGBT community only that was passed into law leaving the previous laws in place. So any ambiguity or conflict that existed before still exists. It un-does LGBT protection laws and makes it impossible for such laws to pass.

Unisex bathrooms are coming, they are becoming more and more common all over the world. It's going to take a while but it's really the only solution. I doubt it will ever be universal ... but it will eventually be common. There will eventually be a constitutional amendment that people cannot be discriminated against based on sexual preference/identity ... it's going to take time, but it's going to happen. Everyone being treated as equals when it comes to facilities is cheaper in the long run.

I don't believe there is such a thing as "fair" fundamentally ... but I don't believe you can make issues not exist by wishing them away either. This NC law just means there will be more issues not fewer. My bet is there will be protests where people are not breaking the law using the bathroom as specified on their birth certificate and it will make people even more uncomfortable.

beasted86
03-26-2016, 04:02 PM
A single unisex/disabled stall is completely different from a complete restroom.

I've never heard of anyone anywhere renaming a bathroom as unisex. They will add it in addition to the universal male and female and simply build a 3rd bathroom. I've seen that already in Miami. I've never seen a unisex bathroom without a male and female available in the premises.


If non-paying customers are using your bathroom you get them arrested for trespassing and ban them for life from your store. If they are paying customers, you'll gladly get paid to let them use your store as a demonstration hotspot and laugh your way to the bank afterwards.

Scoots
03-26-2016, 05:16 PM
A single unisex/disabled stall is completely different from a complete restroom.

I've never heard of anyone anywhere renaming a bathroom as unisex. They will add it in addition to the universal male and female and simply build a 3rd bathroom. I've seen that already in Miami. I've never seen a unisex bathroom without a male and female available in the premises.

If non-paying customers are using your bathroom you get them arrested for trespassing and ban them for life from your store. If they are paying customers, you'll gladly get paid to let them use your store as a demonstration hotspot and laugh your way to the bank afterwards.

Never seen a sign like this http://www.clker.com/cliparts/2/b/7/2/1206572119215038269johnny_automatic_NPS_map_pictog raphs_part_68.svg.hi.png

beasted86
03-26-2016, 05:37 PM
I said I've seen unisex bathrooms here in Miami. Don't remember if it was South Beach or one of the malls, but it's always in addition, it's never a replacement. I've never seen a "communal bathroom" with multiple stalls as the only option in a large building.

At the end of the day, they will never go away from male and female restrooms. Best hope is for adding unisex, not complete replacement, and most companies will not like the added expense of a 3rd room eating square footage.

D Blue987
03-26-2016, 05:52 PM
penis...vagina. Who cares. Everyone can pee and poo where ever they want! Lets make that a law! Everyone wins except for your boss...!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52R-znOwjkk

blahblahyoutoo
03-26-2016, 07:34 PM
A powerful organization like the NBA has the ability to influence positive social change. This isn't a political issue, its a human rights issue.

yeah, f this bulls***.
from now on, by law, every public area of gathering should have 7 restrooms.

1. male only
2. female only
3. gay males
4. gay females
5. transgender males (post op)
6. transgender females (post op)
7. unsure what I identify with on this particular day

this way, nobody is offended or doesn't feel included and most importantly, nobody's feelings are hurt.

ghettosean
03-26-2016, 07:50 PM
I could see Rape and sexual harassment sky rocket if this was passed in the US. I'd love to see the before and after stats of something like that.

Nothing keeping rapists from going into women's bathrooms now. Rapists are not adhering to the law already I'm fairly sure the sign on the door isn't stopping them.

Harassment is a different matter, but with unisex bathrooms the shared public areas could (and often do) have cameras while the private stalls would not.

Agreed but it's not socially acceptable right now and if anyone saw a man going into a woman's washroom you can be 100% sure someone would either comment on it or stop him from entering if it's socially acceptable then it makes things much much easier for rapists and predators to just walk into the bathroom and lock the door behind them.

I'm also not sure if you could get the masses to accept having camera in bathrooms I wouldn't be comfortable with the if it's in the bathroom. Public or not.

5ass
03-26-2016, 08:13 PM
penis...vagina. Who cares. Everyone can pee and poo where ever they want! Lets make that a law! Everyone wins except for your boss...!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52R-znOwjkk

Most women do not want to share bathrooms with men. Men are ****ing disgusting. Not all of them of course, but all it takes is one dude with a lazy aim. Personally I hate taking ***** in public bathrooms and would rather hold it in until I get home even if its hours. Have you ever been to a women's bathroom? Night and day difference.

D Blue987
03-26-2016, 09:21 PM
Most women do not want to share bathrooms with men. Men are ****ing disgusting. Not all of them of course, but all it takes is one dude with a lazy aim. Personally I hate taking ***** in public bathrooms and would rather hold it in until I get home even if its hours. Have you ever been to a women's bathroom? Night and day difference.

haha. Welp...Don't know what to tell you...You gotta problem.

basch152
03-26-2016, 11:02 PM
So? If it's MY business, I should have that right, no matter if it's morally correct.
If I walked into a store and was told I can't shop there bc I'm white I'd laugh and leave. People need to not be so damn sensitive.

This is wrong on so many goddamn levels. There's anti discrimination laws for a reason. Because discrimination is bad. You're white, you don't deal with it anywhere even remotely close as others so you think it's fine, but it simply isn't.

Love hearing people who have never had to deal with real discrimination telling others who face it daily to just deal with it.

In northern michigan there was a small town where a middle eastern family moved to. They were HEAVILY discriminated against, to the point that they had no choice but to move and it left them bankrupt and nearly homeless, but according to you they should "just deal with it and stop being so sensitive".

goingfor28
03-26-2016, 11:52 PM
This is wrong on so many goddamn levels. There's anti discrimination laws for a reason. Because discrimination is bad. You're white, you don't deal with it anywhere even remotely close as others so you think it's fine, but it simply isn't.

Love hearing people who have never had to deal with real discrimination telling others who face it daily to just deal with it.

In northern michigan there was a small town where a middle eastern family moved to. They were HEAVILY discriminated against, to the point that they had no choice but to move and it left them bankrupt and nearly homeless, but according to you they should "just deal with it and stop being so sensitive".
No, not at all. If they buy a home in a community with neighbors they should be allowed to love there in peace. But if I owned my own personal car shop, or flower shop, I should absolutely have the right to refuse service to anyone I want to for any reason. Not saying it's right, but if it's my own personal shop, I should have a say in who I help/sell to.

basch152
03-27-2016, 12:12 AM
No, not at all. If they buy a home in a community with neighbors they should be allowed to love there in peace. But if I owned my own personal car shop, or flower shop, I should absolutely have the right to refuse service to anyone I want to for any reason. Not saying it's right, but if it's my own personal shop, I should have a say in who I help/sell to.

Except you don't. Again, anti discrimination laws.

They're a good thing. Whether you see it or not (which you probably dont, nice thing about being a white male in this country)

Scoots
03-27-2016, 12:15 AM
Most women do not want to share bathrooms with men. Men are ****ing disgusting. Not all of them of course, but all it takes is one dude with a lazy aim. Personally I hate taking ***** in public bathrooms and would rather hold it in until I get home even if its hours. Have you ever been to a women's bathroom? Night and day difference.

Unfortunately true.

goingfor28
03-27-2016, 02:36 AM
Except you don't. Again, anti discrimination laws.

They're a good thing. Whether you see it or not (which you probably dont, nice thing about being a white male in this country)

I mean I kinda would. If someone I don't like comes in I could just say oops that item isn't for sale. Now sure how that got to the sales floor. And take it back til said customer leaves. Not that difficult.

Again, don't care. If i went somewhere in the hood, where I absolutely wouldn't fit in, and someone wouldn't sell me something bc I'm white I wouldn't give a flying ****.

basch152
03-27-2016, 03:21 AM
I mean I kinda would. If someone I don't like comes in I could just say oops that item isn't for sale. Now sure how that got to the sales floor. And take it back til said customer leaves. Not that difficult.

Again, don't care. If i went somewhere in the hood, where I absolutely wouldn't fit in, and someone wouldn't sell me something bc I'm white I wouldn't give a flying ****.

You say you don't care because you don't have to regularly deal witv it. If you were discriminated against on a regular basis your views would be entirely different.

Aust
03-27-2016, 06:01 AM
Most women do not want to share bathrooms with men. Men are ****ing disgusting. Not all of them of course, but all it takes is one dude with a lazy aim. Personally I hate taking ***** in public bathrooms and would rather hold it in until I get home even if its hours. Have you ever been to a women's bathroom? Night and day difference.

When were you in a women's bathroom :eyebrow: (I agree btw)

In elementary school, me and my friends used to think there were couches and other cool **** in the girl's bathroom even though it looked just as meh on the outside as the boys bathroom haha

ewing
03-27-2016, 06:35 AM
Unfortunately true.



What are you talking about? Ever share a home with a women? Women are way way more dirty in a bathroom.

ewing
03-27-2016, 06:46 AM
men pee, rinse there hands, and leave. women are like building a dirty bomb in the bathroom.

two parts dried vagina blood, 4 parts hair, 3 part disgusting chemicals and animal remains from makeup.... aghh

Scoots
03-27-2016, 08:40 AM
men pee, rinse there hands, and leave. women are like building a dirty bomb in the bathroom.

two parts dried vagina blood, 4 parts hair, 3 part disgusting chemicals and animal remains from makeup.... aghh
That's at home haha. In public on average their bathrooms are a little cleaner.

Actually port o potties are unisex ... And disgusting.

goingfor28
03-27-2016, 04:30 PM
You say you don't care because you don't have to regularly deal witv it. If you were discriminated against on a regular basis your views would be entirely different.
Not allowing Bruce Jenner in the women's room is not discrimination. It's common sense.

Alayla
03-27-2016, 04:36 PM
Not allowing Bruce Jenner in the women's room is not discrimination. It's common sense.

That's not correct for one but even if it where that's not the point the bathroom thing is only one aspect of a much larger issue.

basch152
03-27-2016, 04:58 PM
Not allowing Bruce Jenner in the women's room is not discrimination. It's common sense.

a transgendered man, with full facial hair and male features posted a pic of themselves to twitter asking everyone if they would be fine with him using the womans bathroom/locker rooms, because with this law, LEGALLY he would have to.

Your stance is moronic at best.

Saddletramp
03-27-2016, 07:41 PM
Houston just had a vote on this and it passed. It's more than just which bathroom transgendered (et al) people can use.


That's at home haha. In public on average their bathrooms are a little cleaner.

Actually port o potties are unisex ... And disgusting.

From some of the stories my wife has told me, women's rooms are just as bad, if not worse. And when I was a teenager I worked at a movie theatre where I occasionally had to tidy up the bathrooms. Let's just say, women are ****ing gross.


Also, a lot of white privledge in here.

Scoots
03-27-2016, 07:44 PM
Houston just had a vote on this and it passed. It's more than just which bathroom transgendered (et al) people can use.



From some of the stories my wife has told me, women's rooms are just as bad, if not worse. And when I was a teenager I worked at a movie theatre where I occasionally had to tidy up the bathrooms. Let's just say, women are ****ing gross.


Also, a lot of white privledge in here.
I've seen situations where women's bathrooms were much nicer than the adjacent men's and other situations where both were horrible.

Shady66
03-27-2016, 09:20 PM
*******

Kinkotheclown
03-27-2016, 09:35 PM
men pee, rinse there hands, and leave. women are like building a dirty bomb in the bathroom.

two parts dried vagina blood, 4 parts hair, 3 part disgusting chemicals and animal remains from makeup.... aghh

I don't' was my hands after pissing or wiping my arse. Even if I get a little poop on my finger because my girl buys 7 generation TP and it's really thin single ply, so i get poo on my finger frequently. Luckily i wipe with my left so no one ever has to worry about shaking hands with me.

Kinkotheclown
03-27-2016, 09:43 PM
You say you don't care because you don't have to regularly deal witv it. If you were discriminated against on a regular basis your views would be entirely different.

If you own a small, private business should you have to pay for Birth control with health insurance if it costs you enough money that you don't actually make a profit? If so, should you have the right to hire men over women to protect your investment?
Should you have to use a particular product to clean your dishes because the government say you should if you have one that works equally as well?

Look, I am in no way saying that I would support a business that discriminated against any group but it is the right of the owner to run their business how they would like. We are the land of the free. If I don't want to sell my product to Wamshots, so be it. If the community decides to stand up and not buy what I sell until I sell to Wamshots, I will either sell or die. That is my choice. It is not for anyone else to tell me.
It isn't a right or wrong.

I own my own business and I chose with whom i work. I am discriminatory. I don't work with azzholes. :D If the azzholes of the world unite, then I would probably acquiesce, so I can pay rent and eat.

Scoots
03-27-2016, 10:08 PM
If you own a small, private business should you have to pay for Birth control with health insurance if it costs you enough money that you don't actually make a profit? If so, should you have the right to hire men over women to protect your investment?
Should you have to use a particular product to clean your dishes because the government say you should if you have one that works equally as well?

Look, I am in no way saying that I would support a business that discriminated against any group but it is the right of the owner to run their business how they would like. We are the land of the free. If I don't want to sell my product to Wamshots, so be it. If the community decides to stand up and not buy what I sell until I sell to Wamshots, I will either sell or die. That is my choice. It is not for anyone else to tell me.
It isn't a right or wrong.

I own my own business and I chose with whom i work. I am discriminatory. I don't work with azzholes. :D If the azzholes of the world unite, then I would probably acquiesce, so I can pay rent and eat.

If you do own your own business then you know there is already a huge raft of limitations on how you run it. And if you work there then maybe you do work with an "azzhole" :)

Kinkotheclown
03-27-2016, 10:08 PM
Martin Luther King Jr must be turning in his grave at this comment.
But in all seriousness though its situations like this that slowly strip peoples freedom away its easy to think eh its not my problem.
But the more you think its not your problem and don't fight these things the more rights people lose.
Eventually you will lose something you personally care about and it wont be everyone else problem.
I hope everyone comes to understand that this is a very important issue.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your responses.
You are the only person in this thread who has actual first hand experience (or who as at least stated so) and I love your calmness in the face of some of the unusual opinions expressed.
And please don't take this as lip service or some BS, soft clapping from the back of the room. lol

My personal feeling is that while the individual and their identity need to be respected, protected and treated with dignity, in certain situations the masses should win the argument, provided it's a significant difference of opinion, as in a 2/3s majority. I know that this law is far more reaching than bathrooms but for simplicities sake, if more people in the bathroom are uncomfortable than they are comfortable, it should be respected.
But with that should come better education so that those who are uncomfortable can understand what each person feels and subsequently or all least hopefully become more open.

I fully agree with your sentiment regarding individual freedoms. We can't simply look aside and think, well it's not my problem. Eventually, it will be something that is your problem.
I think in many of these cases, the PC argument comes into play and those who want to support a cause for the best of intentions, become more intolerant than those whom they fight.
If one person should have their freedoms and beliefs protected, we all should. It doesn't matter if we agree.
Although not ideal, tolerance is a beautiful word.

Kinkotheclown
03-27-2016, 10:10 PM
If you do own your own business then you know there is already a huge raft of limitations on how you run it. And if you work there then maybe you do work with an "azzhole" :)

I'm an acupuncturist and a sole proprietorship. So FU for calling me azzhole! :laugh::silly:

Scoots
03-27-2016, 10:23 PM
I'm an acupuncturist and a sole proprietorship. So FU for calling me azzhole! :laugh::silly:

MacLean's law states that everywhere you go there will be an azzhole. The corollary is that if you go somewhere yourself you become one. Enjoy your sole proprietorship.

Kinkotheclown
03-27-2016, 10:32 PM
MacLean's law states that everywhere you go there will be an azzhole. The corollary is that if you go somewhere yourself you become one. Enjoy your sole proprietorship.

Is that clan MacLean's law? It is a wise law.
I have been close to firing myself for sheer azzholerey at least once a week.

Scoots
03-27-2016, 11:08 PM
Is that clan MacLean's law? It is a wise law.
I have been close to firing myself for sheer azzholerey at least once a week.

MacLean of Duart, not those bastards from Lochbuie.

basch152
03-28-2016, 12:30 AM
If you own a small, private business should you have to pay for Birth control with health insurance if it costs you enough money that you don't actually make a profit? If so, should you have the right to hire men over women to protect your investment?
Should you have to use a particular product to clean your dishes because the government say you should if you have one that works equally as well?

Look, I am in no way saying that I would support a business that discriminated against any group but it is the right of the owner to run their business how they would like. We are the land of the free. If I don't want to sell my product to Wamshots, so be it. If the community decides to stand up and not buy what I sell until I sell to Wamshots, I will either sell or die. That is my choice. It is not for anyone else to tell me.
It isn't a right or wrong.

I own my own business and I chose with whom i work. I am discriminatory. I don't work with azzholes. :D If the azzholes of the world unite, then I would probably acquiesce, so I can pay rent and eat.

We are the land of the free, until it comes to hate speech, discrimination, and inciting violence.

There's laws against these things, again, for very good reason.

The people who don't think these things should be laws are the people that never have to deal with it.

In an ideal world, half the US would not be bigoted *******s, but that isn't the case, so we need anyi-discrimination laws to protect everyone else.

You have to look no further than trump rallies where slurs are hurled en mass against pretty much any non-whites who show up.

As for the whole birth control issue, that was less about birth control and more about businesses being able to use their religion... ya know, in business, where religion has absolutely no place.

Scoots
03-28-2016, 01:32 AM
We are the land of the free, until it comes to hate speech, discrimination, and inciting violence.

There's laws against these things, again, for very good reason.

The people who don't think these things should be laws are the people that never have to deal with it.

In an ideal world, half the US would not be bigoted *******s, but that isn't the case, so we need anyi-discrimination laws to protect everyone else.

You have to look no further than trump rallies where slurs are hurled en mass against pretty much any non-whites who show up.

As for the whole birth control issue, that was less about birth control and more about businesses being able to use their religion... ya know, in business, where religion has absolutely no place.

I don't think any health care should be a mandatory responsibility of an employer, and businesses are made up of people and people are religious. You can't REALLY separate them.

Saddletramp
03-28-2016, 05:25 AM
I've seen situations where women's bathrooms were much nicer than the adjacent men's and other situations where both were horrible.

I'm not talking about furniture or plants or whatever, I'm talking about how women can be nasty. Real nasty.

Kinkotheclown
03-28-2016, 07:11 AM
We are the land of the free, until it comes to hate speech, discrimination, and inciting violence.

There's laws against these things, again, for very good reason.

The people who don't think these things should be laws are the people that never have to deal with it.

In an ideal world, half the US would not be bigoted *******s, but that isn't the case, so we need anyi-discrimination laws to protect everyone else.

You have to look no further than trump rallies where slurs are hurled en mass against pretty much any non-whites who show up.

As for the whole birth control issue, that was less about birth control and more about businesses being able to use their religion... ya know, in business, where religion has absolutely no place.

What about Kosher businesses? Or Halal?
If a business is owned by an individual or a group of like minded ones who share a system of belief on which they would like to base their business, isn't it discriminatory to tell them they can't?
I'm not making a statement regarding morals or ethics or simple kindness.

And it's not just religion. My best friend and his wife own a small business. They are not religious. They were concerned with the added cost to the health insurance. For small businesses that are teetering, it is an issue.

Hate speech is fine. We are entitled to dislike or hate something and vocalize it, as you did with what I bolded.
Incurring violence through that hate is where the line is crossed. You can hurl any insult you want at anyone but it is you who has to answer for it (Not you personally, of course. This is the general you)
We all discriminate on a moment to moment basis. It is judgement. We all do it and we have survived as a species because of it. "That which is not like me is a threat because it is unknown". I see a group of middle aged white dude in a suits talking about hedge funds and I get a feeling in my gut of disdain. I know that the chances are, they are very nice people but that is my reaction.
There is zero wrong with reactions, judgements and discriminations. It's what you do with them that is important.
Yes, we need anti discrimination laws. But at what point do you draw the line? I'm not referring to this situation but what if I am deeply offended by you calling "half of america bigoted ****s"? I feel like that you discriminate against them and your language is hateful. They need protection.

I understand your sentiment and I agree with the core.

I am simply saying, you can't protect one side of any argument but not the other. If one side has a voice, so should the other. Until of course one side takes it to violence.

Kinkotheclown
03-28-2016, 07:14 AM
MacLean of Duart, not those bastards from Lochbuie.

Damn those Lochbuie bastards!

IndyRealist
03-28-2016, 10:39 AM
https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144?s=01

Alayla
03-28-2016, 11:11 AM
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your responses.
You are the only person in this thread who has actual first hand experience (or who as at least stated so) and I love your calmness in the face of some of the unusual opinions expressed.
And please don't take this as lip service or some BS, soft clapping from the back of the room. lol

My personal feeling is that while the individual and their identity need to be respected, protected and treated with dignity, in certain situations the masses should win the argument, provided it's a significant difference of opinion, as in a 2/3s majority. I know that this law is far more reaching than bathrooms but for simplicities sake, if more people in the bathroom are uncomfortable than they are comfortable, it should be respected.
But with that should come better education so that those who are uncomfortable can understand what each person feels and subsequently or all least hopefully become more open.

I fully agree with your sentiment regarding individual freedoms. We can't simply look aside and think, well it's not my problem. Eventually, it will be something that is your problem.
I think in many of these cases, the PC argument comes into play and those who want to support a cause for the best of intentions, become more intolerant than those whom they fight.
If one person should have their freedoms and beliefs protected, we all should. It doesn't matter if we agree.
Although not ideal, tolerance is a beautiful word.

Well being calm at an actual discussion like this is easy compared to how many places that just degrade into pure bashing in other areas of life.
I see for the most part this forum is making an effort not to be difficult about this subject and are just expressing there thoughts.
I do the best I can in terms of trying to explain what being in this position is like but its not really my place or my goal to change anyone's mind so going into things levelheadedly is basically a given at that point. No one will take anything someone says seriously if there just preaching insulting and getting upset right?
I actually feel the forum overall is handing this issue with a lot of sensitivity for the most part.

As for the situation itself as you said this particular situation is much further reaching than bathrooms or peoples comfort allowing someone to be discriminated against for being transgender opens a massive can of worms.
But as far as just the bathroom situation in my mind its a little thing yes it has some very negatives implications and yes I strongly prefer women's restrooms and will even more so when I'm further into transition but that in particular I can understand.
Its the larger parts of this that have me worried.

ewing
03-28-2016, 11:13 AM
https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144?s=01

who is that?

TheIlladelph16
03-28-2016, 11:34 AM
Just wondering. If a trans woman (not sure if that's the correct terminology, what I mean is a male to female trans) tries to join the WNBA, will they let "her".

There was a documentary made about this a few years ago called Juwanna Mann. Not that great.

basch152
03-28-2016, 01:02 PM
I don't think any health care should be a mandatory responsibility of an employer, and businesses are made up of people and people are religious. You can't REALLY separate them.


Yes, tou absolutely can separate them. When your religion starts effecting others rights, your rights come to a giant screeching halt, that's always how it been, and how it should be.

You are allowed to have your religion and follow it how you please, but that's where it ends.

There are so many religious laws that go directly against current morals and laws for a reason. Someone can't just attack a child or woman for being disobedient and then cite their religion and get away with it.

What about Kosher businesses? Or Halal?
If a business is owned by an individual or a group of like minded ones who share a system of belief on which they would like to base their business, isn't it discriminatory to tell them they can't?
I'm not making a statement regarding morals or ethics or simple kindness.

And it's not just religion. My best friend and his wife own a small business. They are not religious. They were concerned with the added cost to the health insurance. For small businesses that are teetering, it is an issue.

Hate speech is fine. We are entitled to dislike or hate something and vocalize it, as you did with what I bolded.
Incurring violence through that hate is where the line is crossed. You can hurl any insult you want at anyone but it is you who has to answer for it (Not you personally, of course. This is the general you)
We all discriminate on a moment to moment basis. It is judgement. We all do it and we have survived as a species because of it. "That which is not like me is a threat because it is unknown". I see a group of middle aged white dude in a suits talking about hedge funds and I get a feeling in my gut of disdain. I know that the chances are, they are very nice people but that is my reaction.
There is zero wrong with reactions, judgements and discriminations. It's what you do with them that is important.
Yes, we need anti discrimination laws. But at what point do you draw the line? I'm not referring to this situation but what if I am deeply offended by you calling "half of america bigoted ****s"? I feel like that you discriminate against them and your language is hateful. They need protection.

I understand your sentiment and I agree with the core.

I am simply saying, you can't protect one side of any argument but not the other. If one side has a voice, so should the other. Until of course one side takes it to violence.

Hate speech is absolutely not ok. Thr same reason inciting violence is illegal, it always leads to violence.

Again, look no further than trunp speeches where people are being assaulted.

Look at the puerto rican family that was murdered by a trump supporter because he was spurred by the hate speech of other trump followers.

And yes, galf of the US IS bigoted *******s, you see it every day. And no, they deserve no protection, those kind of views are dangerous, do and HAVE led to dangerous domestic and terrorist attacks in this country, and jave no place in the 21st century.

But i find it hilarious that you say the bigots of the country need protection, but the people actually being discriminated against should jist deal with it apparently.

IndyRealist
03-28-2016, 01:28 PM
who is that?

He is a trans man in N. Carolina, showing how stupid this law is.

IndyRealist
03-28-2016, 01:48 PM
And for the record there is a trans (male-to-female) MMA fighter named Fallon Fox. That pretty much answers the question about the WNBA.

Scoots
03-28-2016, 02:52 PM
Yes, tou absolutely can separate them. When your religion starts effecting others rights, your rights come to a giant screeching halt, that's always how it been, and how it should be.

You are allowed to have your religion and follow it how you please, but that's where it ends.


My morals, wherever they come from, come with me and guide my decisions. If they are morals based on religious rules then they are ... you can't excise someone's morals no matter how much you want to.

I understand that people have to operate within the law, but there is a lot of latitude in how that can be done and for the most part religious beliefs don't get in the way of the law ... not always though.

Scoots
03-28-2016, 02:55 PM
Hate speech is absolutely not ok. Thr same reason inciting violence is illegal, it always leads to violence.

Hate speech is not okay, but it's not illegal, nor should it be. Hate speech, nor language inciting violence do not always lead to violence. Perhaps you were just being hyperbolic, but the vast majority of the time hate speech and incitement to violence results in nothing.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2016, 04:08 PM
My morals, wherever they come from, come with me and guide my decisions. If they are morals based on religious rules then they are ... you can't excise someone's morals no matter how much you want to.

I understand that people have to operate within the law, but there is a lot of latitude in how that can be done and for the most part religious beliefs don't get in the way of the law ... not always though.

That's the tricky part about religion 'beliefs', the Most High gave us the commandments/true law(not man made) to abide and live by and not false idols/religions, if half the people just did some minor studies then they would see that all this trans and same sex is an absolute abomination, Babylon America has run amuck

you can believe and follow has you please, as it was already written, I'm just the messenger

Kinkotheclown
03-28-2016, 05:31 PM
Yes, tou absolutely can separate them. When your religion starts effecting others rights, your rights come to a giant screeching halt, that's always how it been, and how it should be.

You are allowed to have your religion and follow it how you please, but that's where it ends.

There are so many religious laws that go directly against current morals and laws for a reason. Someone can't just attack a child or woman for being disobedient and then cite their religion and get away with it.


Hate speech is absolutely not ok. Thr same reason inciting violence is illegal, it always leads to violence.

Again, look no further than trunp speeches where people are being assaulted.

Look at the puerto rican family that was murdered by a trump supporter because he was spurred by the hate speech of other trump followers.

And yes, galf of the US IS bigoted *******s, you see it every day. And no, they deserve no protection, those kind of views are dangerous, do and HAVE led to dangerous domestic and terrorist attacks in this country, and jave no place in the 21st century.

But i find it hilarious that you say the bigots of the country need protection, but the people actually being discriminated against should jist deal with it apparently.

I did not say bigots need protection. I used an example that involved them regarding no protection of indivisible freedoms and that we can't just make every voice with with we disagree, go away. The Lou T was that your voice could be next. But you failed to attempt to understand that.
I said that claiming we need to protect one side will incite the other to want the same treatment. And that is fair

Hate speech is what it is, speech. It is allowed and it should be. It's unpleasant. But if you want a free society, that means people having different opinions and voices.

Ironically, within all of this, You keep neglecting to acknowledge your own hatred and your hate speech towards those you consider to be bigots.
You are as close minded as you claim them to be.

If you can attempt to put aside your concept of right and wrong for a moment and read with open eyes what others are saying, you will see that most agree with what you seem to be trying to say. But don't agree that we should simply shut people up for their opiniions and feelings.
If I hate Nazis and scream about it, is that ok?
If I hate people who commit needless violent acts in the name of one thing or the other and I scream about my hate for them, is that ok?
If I hated idi Amin and screamed about it, is that ok?
Hate is hate. You seems to be lobbying that some hate is ok, as long as you agree with it.

Where do you draw the line? You can't have it both ways. You either have freedom of speech and expression or you don't,
Again, I'm in no way suggesting that we should let people who are being actively mistreated go without a voice and protection.
I'm saying that if you want free speech, there will always be consequences and serious disagreements

ewing
03-28-2016, 08:36 PM
Can someone tell me why this law matters? In schools i can see an weirdness that needs to be dealt with when it comes to bathrooms b/c school are like jails-everyone needs to follow a strict set of rules. Bathrooms i could give a **** about. Figure it out. you probably don't need the gov't IMO.

ewing
03-28-2016, 08:54 PM
btw everyone here can use my bathroom.

5ass
03-28-2016, 10:16 PM
And for the record there is a trans (male-to-female) MMA fighter named Fallon Fox. That pretty much answers the question about the WNBA.

Thanks.. looked her up and found this on her wiki page


Vilain, who worked with the Association of Boxing Commissions when they wrote their policy on transgender athletes, was also quoted by Time as saying that, to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ... including external genitalia and gonadectomy" (see sex reassignment surgery) and a minimum of a subsequent two years of hormone replacement therapy, as two years is "the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition". When asked if Fox could, nonetheless, be stronger than her competitors, Vilain replied that it was possible, but noted that "sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons", and said that it would be discriminatory to treat Fox differently than other athletes with potential genetic advantages.

I guess the same would apply for the WNBA.

Scoots
03-28-2016, 10:30 PM
Thanks.. looked her up and found this on her wiki page

I guess the same would apply for the WNBA.

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that the WNBA would side with FIBA which follows the IOC which ruled that you must compete based on your birth certificate. I believe this became rule in the late 80s with a Russian athlete being protested and eventually genetically tested and excluded. But that is a murky recollection.

TrueFan420
03-28-2016, 11:56 PM
There was a documentary made about this a few years ago called Juwanna Mann. Not that great.

Um please say you're joking? Juwanna man was definitely not a documentary.

Saddletramp
03-29-2016, 04:52 AM
btw everyone here can use my bathroom.

You might want to reconsider that invitation. I have a feeling a bunch of these guys would blow up the toilet indiscriminately.

Kinkotheclown
03-29-2016, 07:40 AM
btw everyone here can use my bathroom.


I'm outside right now. I just really need to rub out a quick one.

Do you mind if I borrow some lotion?

Kinkotheclown
03-29-2016, 07:43 AM
There was a documentary made about this a few years ago called Juwanna Mann. Not that great.

:laugh: