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View Full Version : Swap Zeke and CP3: What likely happens?



JasonJohnHorn
03-23-2016, 09:35 PM
Were Chris Paul to have played under Chuck Daly with the original Bad Boys, and Isaih Thomas played with the Clippers, what do you think the difference would be?



Would the Clippers have done any better? Do they make the finals? Or get to the conference finals last year?

Would the Pistons have perhaps won in 88 as well? Or lost in either 89 or 90? Is it still a 4-game sweep in 91?

KnicksorBust
03-24-2016, 08:07 AM
Were Chris Paul to have played under Chuck Daly with the original Bad Boys, and Isaih Thomas played with the Clippers, what do you think the difference would be?



Would the Clippers have done any better? Do they make the finals? Or get to the conference finals last year?

Would the Pistons have perhaps won in 88 as well? Or lost in either 89 or 90? Is it still a 4-game sweep in 91?

It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.

McAllen Tx
03-24-2016, 09:53 AM
It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.
I think the Pistons win 3-4 titles and Clippers not as good.

I remember how Zeke used to mean mug his teammates and get in their faces. They always took it as a personal challenge and stepped up with their defense. Pauls the same kind of player as Zeke in that reguard but IMO Paul is also the better player.

Paul tries do that in LA and his teammates sulk. Dont see how Zeke would make a difference.

One thing though that should be noted is in Zekes day when he challenged his teammates they could practically kill someone and only get a foul call nowadays they get suspended w/o pay and fined. That does play a part.

PowerHouse
03-24-2016, 09:54 AM
Put CP3 (prolly top 3 best defensive PG ever) on that defense??

Its lights out for the league.

Shammyguy3
03-24-2016, 11:41 AM
CP3 would have a ring and IT probably does not. Although that's assuming that CP3 would be as effective as a floor spacer with his shooting from distance. If he was growing up in the 70s instead of the 90s/00s he may not have put as much emphasis on his distance shooting in which case, not sure if there'd be any difference. Vice versa for Isiah, if he grew up in the more modern era he may be a better distance shooter.

JasonJohnHorn
03-24-2016, 11:42 AM
I think the Pistons win 3-4 titles and Clippers not as good.

I remember how Zeke used to mean mug his teammates and get in their faces. They always took it as a personal challenge and stepped up with their defense. Pauls the same kind of player as Zeke in that reguard but IMO Paul is also the better player.

Paul tries do that in LA and his teammates sulk. Dont see how Zeke would make a difference.

One thing though that should be noted is in Zekes day when he challenged his teammates they could practically kill someone and only get a foul call nowadays they get suspended w/o pay and fined. That does play a part.

I think part of why that worked for Zeke in DET and not so much for CP3 in LAC is because Chuck Daly was such a great leader. You are right that players could be more aggressive, but I think having a guy like Daly pushing the team helped.

It also helped that you had guys like Laimbeer and Dumars who didn't need to be pushed, and guys like Rodman who took the mentorship offered by Daly and Zeke seriously.

I think players these days have softer skin. If they get criticized they take it personally. This based on media reports, which are obviously hard to confirm, but you hear about guys being upset that certain players don't high-five them, or from guys like Howard, who have yet to win anything and prove themselves, yet complain to the media during a playoff run that they don't get enough touches. Nobody on the Pistons was complaining that they didn't get enough touches.


I think the difference to is the kind of leadership. I know Zeke had a way of alienating players in a mean spirited way. Adrian Dantley, for example. Aguire was great, but they could have won just as easily with Dantley, but Zeke had apparently gone behind Dantley's back and poisoned the locker room for him. CP3 has more compassion. He'll ride somebody, but I don't get the feeling like he would sell somebody up the river. Given that Zeke had apparently spread rumours about Magic, and froze out MJ at the All-Star game, and threw his daughter under the bus when he got taken to the hospital for ODing on pills. He seems like an @$$ that really had a way of hazing players. I think it was Daly, not Zeke, who was the leader of the team, and I think Daly would have done much better with CP3 than Zeke.


Also, CP3's defense.... just wow. Not to mention he is a more efficient scorer. He also is unlikely to decline as quickly as Zeke. Zeke his a high peak, and then came down hard. Once 30 year hit, he was no longer the same player.

The Clips, on the other hand, I think would not have responded well to Zeke's hazing approach to leadership. I feel like DaJ would just crumble at that.

SLY WILLIAMS
03-25-2016, 02:22 PM
It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.

Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.

FlashBolt
03-25-2016, 03:02 PM
Defensively, Zeke doesn't touch CP3.
Offensively, CP3 makes his team better than Zeke could ever have or had.

Some of you can question CP3's toughness (really? he's one of the toughest players in the game in terms of mental capacity.)

You can't even question CP3's leadership. It's consistently been ranked highly.

CP3 has had trouble with NBA success but Zeke wouldn't have done any better IMO.
CP3 is the better player. A backcourt of Dumars+CP3? I hope you guys know how good that is.. probably the best defensive backcourt in NBA history.

Btw, read what Dantley (one of the genuine players out there) said about Isiah.

SLY WILLIAMS
03-25-2016, 03:59 PM
I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.

ewing
03-25-2016, 06:13 PM
Defensively, Zeke doesn't touch CP3.
Offensively, CP3 makes his team better than Zeke could ever have or had.

Some of you can question CP3's toughness (really? he's one of the toughest players in the game in terms of mental capacity.)

You can't even question CP3's leadership. It's consistently been ranked highly.

CP3 has had trouble with NBA success but Zeke wouldn't have done any better IMO.
CP3 is the better player. A backcourt of Dumars+CP3? I hope you guys know how good that is.. probably the best defensive backcourt in NBA history.

Btw, read what Dantley (one of the genuine players out there) said about Isiah.



Nothing wrong with thinking CP3 is better then Zeke but telling people to look at what AD says is kind of silly. AD and Zeke both wanted the Pistons to be their team. It been widely reported that they didn't get along and had a power struggle for the team. AD got traded b/c of it. Zeke won back to back titles after he left. AD has reason to be bitter.

ewing
03-25-2016, 06:16 PM
Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.


CP3 is an amazing player. I have no problem with people saying they would take CP3 over Zeke. I do think Zeke had better offensive take over ability and has had those signature moments that have eluded CP3 (25 on one leg in the 4th of an NBA finals game, 16 in 90 seconds at the end of a close out game, etc). Cp3 really does nothing wrong on the basketball floor though.

FlashBolt
03-25-2016, 06:17 PM
I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.

I get that but I just don't see how Isiah was really any better than CP3 at any valuable asset of the game. Defensively/offensively, it's not even close when you consider the value CP3 brings. So while advanced statistics may misconstrue what would really happen, saying Isiah was a killer isn't a better case. I'm not even sure if Pistons would have beaten the Lakers in the 89 Finals if not for Magic's hamstring.

FlashBolt
03-25-2016, 06:20 PM
Nothing wrong with thinking CP3 is better then Zeke but telling people to look at what AD says is kind of silly. AD and Zeke both wanted the Pistons to be their team. It been widely reported that they didn't get along and had a power struggle for the team. AD got traded b/c of it. Zeke won back to back titles after he left. AD has reason to be bitter.

That's my point, though. What kind of leader was Zeke really back then if that's what we're talking about here? Dantley was still a very serviceable All-Star type player. It's not like he was some busboy just sticking by. Just the totality of it all, I don't see how Zeke was/is more valuable than CP3. As a scorer in flashes, I think Zeke was a better scorer but that doesn't necessarily translate to a better team offense. Defensively, I don't even think it's close. Dumars+Zeke got things done defensively. CP3+Dumars would be devastating... Just picture that.

JasonJohnHorn
03-25-2016, 06:57 PM
Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.

I think of all the point guards in the league today, CP3 is the one who would have thrived best in that era. They let you rips guys arms off to get a steal. CP3 can get more without that; and he'd have the drive to go balls out.

I agree with your point about the era, but I think CP3 is the guy of guy who would have been at home then. I remember watching him in the playoffs against the Mavs (08) sent Dampier and Diop crashing into CP3 overtly and intentionally after the ball had gone up (real cheap shots that weren't called flagrant for some reason). CP3 just bounced back up.


He'd thrive in the late 80's/early 90's.

JasonJohnHorn
03-25-2016, 07:00 PM
I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.

Dantley's disdain for Zeke is well supported by other players, like MJ, Pippen, and even Magic, as well as many others (Bird included). And these are guys who have high praise for Dumars and others, so it isn't just about biased rivalries.

Dont' forget, when Zeke OD'd on pills, he said it was his own daughter who was getting help. Zeke has proven himself time and again to be a grade-A @$$#ol3.

SLY WILLIAMS
03-25-2016, 09:06 PM
Dantley's disdain for Zeke is well supported by other players, like MJ, Pippen, and even Magic, as well as many others (Bird included). And these are guys who have high praise for Dumars and others, so it isn't just about biased rivalries.

Dont' forget, when Zeke OD'd on pills, he said it was his own daughter who was getting help. Zeke has proven himself time and again to be a grade-A @$$#ol3.

Dantley hating Isiah is about Dantley getting traded. Jordan and Pippen hated Isiah for who Isiah was as a player and a person. Those are totally apples and oranges situation. Bird may have disliked Isiah but I'm not sure I would call it hate. Magic was one of Isiah's best friends for years (So was Aguire). Later the Isiah/Magic friendship was strained but I never ever heard Magic say he hated Isiah. I doubt Magic would ever say that. Dumars was always looked at as the clean Pistons player during the Bad Boys era. Isiah/Laimbeer/Mahorn/Rodman were the guys that would throw the questionable hits on the Badboys not Dumars. Nobody is claiming Isiah was a good guy. I do not like Isiah as a person. I do not like Jordan as a person. That does not take away from who they were as players. Plenty of players )and fans) hated both Isiah and Bird. They also respected their games at the same time.

FlashBolt
03-25-2016, 10:42 PM
CP3 ends up as the 2nd greatest PG behind Magic if in that era. Maybe below Stockton for longevity sake but I don't see how CP3 doesn't make the Pistons better.

naps
03-25-2016, 11:02 PM
Zeke is so underrated. I love CP3 but I just think he always gets a free pass out of all his contemporary superstars. And since he is well liked overall, almost everyone comes up with excuses for his lack of post-season success, including myself at times.

53 HOWARD
03-26-2016, 12:12 AM
I'm interested to know how many people commenting actually watched zeke play... Cause if you did this is an easy answer ZEKE!

I swear a lot of people hate on Isiah cause of his problems with Jordan

If no Isiah the Pistons win none. Chris Paul is so overrated he hasn't made one conference final. Isiah made 5 in a row. He was clutch, way better defense and ten times more heart

Clips would have atleast 2 conference finals with Zeke over Paul

IBleedPurple
03-26-2016, 12:34 AM
CP3 is massively overrated by younger generations.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2016, 12:43 AM
I'm interested to know how many people commenting actually watched zeke play... Cause if you did this is an easy answer ZEKE!

I swear a lot of people hate on Isiah cause of his problems with Jordan

If no Isiah the Pistons win none. Chris Paul is so overrated he hasn't made one conference final. Isiah made 5 in a row. He was clutch, way better defense and ten times more heart

Clips would have atleast 2 conference finals with Zeke over Paul

I grew up watching the Bad Boys. That is when I fell in love with basketball. Zeke and Dumars and Laimbeer came to my university with the rest of the Pistons for try-outs/practice before pre-season.

I LOVED Zeke growing up, and on the court, he had so much heart and played hurt all the time. I have respect for his skill, and he did amazing things, but I've watched CP3, and I have to say, he would have been a better fit for that team. Defensively, and offensively.

The only thing Zeke has going for him is that CP3 doesn't have those nights like Zeke did when he would just light it up on offense. But I would take Paul's consistency over that in a heart beat.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2016, 12:45 AM
CP3 is massively overrated by younger generations.

I guess by the older generation too, since I watch Thomas in his prime and would still take CP3 over him.

SLY WILLIAMS
03-26-2016, 11:27 AM
The Babdboys were a great team because they all bought in to the team dynamic. The goal was a ring not any player having a 20-25 PER. If that meant winning some games 79-73 with players scoring 10 points that was fine by them. If we only judge guys by "advanced" stats you could say a hundred guys were better than Isiah. A guy like Dumars would have a 15 PER and be thought as not a big deal today if we only judge by "advanced" stats. A guy like Marbury put up some pretty good stats in his prime. He was not better than a guy like Dumars. I have huge respect for John Stockton. I'm glad he gets respect nowadays in part because of "advanced" stats but some people may forget that Isiah lit him up for 44 points the game before the notorious Karl Malone elbow.

KnicksorBust
03-26-2016, 11:51 AM
I'm interested to know how many people commenting actually watched zeke play... Cause if you did this is an easy answer ZEKE!

I swear a lot of people hate on Isiah cause of his problems with Jordan

If no Isiah the Pistons win none. Chris Paul is so overrated he hasn't made one conference final. Isiah made 5 in a row. He was clutch, way better defense and ten times more heart

Clips would have atleast 2 conference finals with Zeke over Paul

Please tell me what years the Clips would have made the wcf. I dare you. :laugh:

SLY WILLIAMS
03-26-2016, 11:51 AM
Speaking of stats and winning sometimes guys have to sacrifice their own stats a little bit for the greater good of the team. Earl Monroe was a killer on the Bullets but when he came to the Knicks he had to take a step back in his own game to be part of a championship team. Guys like Bosh or Kevin Love might be able to put up huge numbers on some teams but their numbers will drop when trying to fit in for a ring. Even a guy like Melo who has sometimes had a reputation for "hero ball" would probably have seen a drop in his individual stats if he was traded to a team like the Spurs.

SLY WILLIAMS
03-26-2016, 12:18 PM
Please tell me what years the Clips would have made the wcf. I dare you. :laugh:

Its really impossible to say for sure. Chris Paul is a very good player. There is no denying that. Isiah was a very good player. There is no denying that. Hoops is a team game. These are two PGs that have to be the quarterbacks for their teams. A lot of that depends on chemistry with other guys. How would guys like Blake and Jordan respond to Isiah? Isiah sometimes would get in fights with his own teammates in practice. Some guys respond to that kind of stuff differently than other guys. I have long heard and believe that often the last two minutes of games tomes down to PG execution. That is not always the case on teams that the primary ball handler/decision maker is not the PG but it is the case more often than not.

lakerfan85
03-26-2016, 01:45 PM
Please tell me what years the Clips would have made the wcf. I dare you. :laugh:

Last year? You don't think a team led by Isiah couldn't close out the Rockets with a 3-1 series lead?

europagnpilgrim
03-26-2016, 03:18 PM
CP3 is an amazing player. I have no problem with people saying they would take CP3 over Zeke. I do think Zeke had better offensive take over ability and has had those signature moments that have eluded CP3 (25 on one leg in the 4th of an NBA finals game, 16 in 90 seconds at the end of a close out game, etc). Cp3 really does nothing wrong on the basketball floor though.

That's what the difference from winning a title and not winning, take over ability where Zeke trumps the over hyped efficiency but lethal CP3, in the postseason it comes down to that, not some advanced stat number

Zeke had those Pistons in ECF/Finals in 4 straight years and not for that Bird clutch steal and that super unreal phantom call for Kareem, they have a 4 peat at worse a 3peat, CP3 has to be begged by Doc just to shoot the damn ball because he is such the quintessential PG looking to get all involved at the detriment of the team for most part, Zeke was capable of dropping 20pts a qtr if needed come postseason, CP3 I feel is capable also but its not in his DNA like it was Zeke's

but I feel CP3 would have had those teams competing and in the mix, like he has the Clippers now, but Zeke won titles at ncaa level prior to the nba, as the driving force of both squads

Zeke would also light in house fires to the Blake and DJ's of the camp and they would be right there with the Spurs and Warriors for legit Finals talk, Zeke was that good no matter what the advance stat whores spew out

europagnpilgrim
03-26-2016, 03:24 PM
title**

europagnpilgrim
03-26-2016, 03:31 PM
Its really impossible to say for sure. Chris Paul is a very good player. There is no denying that. Isiah was a very good player. There is no denying that. Hoops is a team game. These are two PGs that have to be the quarterbacks for their teams. A lot of that depends on chemistry with other guys. How would guys like Blake and Jordan respond to Isiah? Isiah sometimes would get in fights with his own teammates in practice. Some guys respond to that kind of stuff differently than other guys. I have long heard and believe that often the last two minutes of games tomes down to PG execution. That is not always the case on teams that the primary ball handler/decision maker is not the PG but it is the case more often than not.

Jordan choked out Kerr in practice and Cartwright told him he would break both of Jordan's legs after he i guess make a slick gesture towards him, just a different game now, I guess they cared more back in the days of that era

i even heard Shaq smacked Kobe around, they went to 4 finals in 8 years so that seem to work out well

i believe team fights happen more than what the media leaks, wait until Lebron retires to hear some of the stories that seem alien right now, it is going to be funny, it already started with Kobe a couple years ago, just wait until next year and beyond to hear more, wouldn't surprise me if him and Smush got into a fist fight

the PG usually does have the ball but it comes down to execution/making plays, Zeke owns that in spades if we are talking about rings and deep playoff runs

Chronz
03-26-2016, 05:10 PM
Speaking of stats and winning sometimes guys have to sacrifice their own stats a little bit for the greater good of the team. Earl Monroe was a killer on the Bullets but when he came to the Knicks he had to take a step back in his own game to be part of a championship team. Guys like Bosh or Kevin Love might be able to put up huge numbers on some teams but their numbers will drop when trying to fit in for a ring. Even a guy like Melo who has sometimes had a reputation for "hero ball" would probably have seen a drop in his individual stats if he was traded to a team like the Spurs.
Sometimes the individual stats go up if the guy is coming from a bad situation. Really depends on more than just winning or losing.

Either way, I don't agree that his stats dropped because he was on a championship contender, he just declined and would chuck 3s(and miss alot) in the rs as he got older. The team actually got rid of some of his offensive support in order to build their championship defense (something CP3 would have improved and Isaiah contributed very little to) so you could actually argue his team relied on him as much as it ever did, the only real difference was his support.

What did IT accomplish without an elite defense backing him? What teams did he best, what level of production did he display at his peak when he was suppose to be carrying teams? CP3 is Isaiah v2.0. Rings won't blind me that much

Chronz
03-26-2016, 05:14 PM
Last year? You don't think a team led by Isiah couldn't close out the Rockets with a 3-1 series lead?
Is he playing on a bad hammie with a depleted team lacking depth? I've seen far better players than Isaiah blow 3-1 lead under friendlier circumstances.

valade16
03-26-2016, 05:29 PM
Is he playing on a bad hammie with a depleted team lacking depth? I've seen far better players than Isaiah blow 3-1 lead under friendlier circumstances.

Isn't IT famous for dropping a ton of points in the 4th while hobbled lol?

Chronz
03-26-2016, 05:50 PM
Isn't IT famous for dropping a ton of points in the 4th while hobbled lol?
Yeah for 1 game he lost in whereas CP3 closed out the defending champs with a game winning miracle and had to be rushed back out after 2 games of the next series. I honestly think it exaggerated his injury but how severe was his ankle hurt? I've played through some pretty bad ones but I've also been unable to walk. Adrenaline can carry you far, it carried cp3 further in that example

53 HOWARD
03-26-2016, 09:10 PM
Yeah for 1 game he lost in whereas CP3 closed out the defending champs with a game winning miracle and had to be rushed back out after 2 games of the next series. I honestly think it exaggerated his injury but how severe was his ankle hurt? I've played through some pretty bad ones but I've also been unable to walk. Adrenaline can carry you far, it carried cp3 further in that example

Come on... How is Paul's first round hamstring injury play better than isiahs finals moment
Isiah set the finals record for points in a quarter on one ankle
Paul won game seven with a bad hamstring but it was the FIRST round

Paul's a great player but IMO he is a tier below Isiah

Chronz
03-26-2016, 09:40 PM
Greatest first round ever ...

ewing
03-26-2016, 09:57 PM
Is he playing on a bad hammie with a depleted team lacking depth? I've seen far better players than Isaiah blow 3-1 lead under friendlier circumstances.

you don't want to see Zeke with a bum wheel :)

ewing
03-26-2016, 09:59 PM
Yeah for 1 game he lost in whereas CP3 closed out the defending champs with a game winning miracle and had to be rushed back out after 2 games of the next series. I honestly think it exaggerated his injury but how severe was his ankle hurt? I've played through some pretty bad ones but I've also been unable to walk. Adrenaline can carry you far, it carried cp3 further in that example

now your going straight troll. Isaiah dropped 25 in a quarter on one leg. Dude could barely move. Every shot looked like a pray.

Chronz
03-26-2016, 10:44 PM
Only half trolling. He had a great playoff run and a great game, but people always brush off his epic failures the majority of that series. He was certainly not similarly dominant because of 1 quarter of gutsy shots. Shame he couldn't muster the guts the majority of the series

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2016, 11:16 PM
Is he playing on a bad hammie with a depleted team lacking depth? I've seen far better players than Isaiah blow 3-1 lead under friendlier circumstances.

Are you talking about T-Mac in the ORL/DET series ;-)

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2016, 11:20 PM
Isn't IT famous for dropping a ton of points in the 4th while hobbled lol?

And what about when his missed game 7 altogether in 88 and his team lost?

I love Zeke. He played with a lot of heart, But he took a lot of gambles that didn't always pay off. He had some big moments, but his team WON when the TEAM played well. His personal highlights are just what people talk about.

IBleedPurple
03-27-2016, 01:29 AM
CP3 is massively overrated by younger generations.

I guess by the older generation too, since I watch Thomas in his prime and would still take CP3 over him.This post makes sense :rolleyes:

SLY WILLIAMS
03-27-2016, 01:57 PM
Jordan choked out Kerr in practice and Cartwright told him he would break both of Jordan's legs after he i guess make a slick gesture towards him, just a different game now, I guess they cared more back in the days of that era

i even heard Shaq smacked Kobe around, they went to 4 finals in 8 years so that seem to work out well

i believe team fights happen more than what the media leaks, wait until Lebron retires to hear some of the stories that seem alien right now, it is going to be funny, it already started with Kobe a couple years ago, just wait until next year and beyond to hear more, wouldn't surprise me if him and Smush got into a fist fight

the PG usually does have the ball but it comes down to execution/making plays, Zeke owns that in spades if we are talking about rings and deep playoff runs

Isiah was kind of goofy. He would go after some of the biggest guys on the court. He got in to it with Cartwright, Mahorn, and Laimbeer if my memory is correct. Maybe others. He also took one a pretty nasty elbow from Karl Malone. Karl had some pretty nasty elbows. Remember when he knocked Drob unconscious with one?

SLY WILLIAMS
03-27-2016, 02:04 PM
Sometimes the individual stats go up if the guy is coming from a bad situation. Really depends on more than just winning or losing.

Either way, I don't agree that his stats dropped because he was on a championship contender, he just declined and would chuck 3s(and miss alot) in the rs as he got older. The team actually got rid of some of his offensive support in order to build their championship defense (something CP3 would have improved and Isaiah contributed very little to) so you could actually argue his team relied on him as much as it ever did, the only real difference was his support.

What did IT accomplish without an elite defense backing him? What teams did he best, what level of production did he display at his peak when he was suppose to be carrying teams? CP3 is Isaiah v2.0. Rings won't blind me that much

I'm not sure who you were referring to but every situation is different. Earl the Pearl was a really dynamic scorer who was used to the ball being in his hands a lot on the Bullets. Clyde has spoken about how Earl had to take a step back to fit in for the team goals after he was traded to the Knicks. Earl took what they said to heart. That team was going for a ring so Earl did what it took to fit in on a finals team. So instead of Earl taking 20 shots a game he took around 12 shots a game. After Willis started declining Earl took a bigger role again.