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Gander13SM
03-13-2016, 09:53 AM
Just out of curiosity, with the season winding down etc. There's been a lot of talk about the individual awars (MIP, MVP, DPOY) but I'm curious to see what you would have as your All-NBA defensive teams?

Mines are looking like this (explanation/supporting argument, if required, will be in spoiler tags) *Warning, Controversy ahead*


All-NBA Defensive First Team

Kyle Lowry
[SPOILER TAG]Top 3 for all point guards in DRPM and DWS while leading the league in steals. Despite his size he seems to always give his match ups a tough time. I don't think any other PG comes close this year to be honest[/SPOILER TAG]

Chris Paul
[SPOILER TAG]Still an elite defensive guard. Paul is top 5 in DRPM and DWS for point guards. He's also second in the league for steals [/SPOILER TAG]

Kawhi Leonard
[SPOILER TAG]Really? You want an explanation? smh...[/SPOILER TAG]

Draymond Green
[SPOILER TAG]By far the most versatile defender in the league, he ranks 2nd in the entire league for DRPM, 6th in DWS and top 10 in DRtg. He is top 5 for steals at the PF position and top 10 in blocks. His ability to comfortably guard any position puts him over the top here. And then there's the fact that without him, the Warriors "switch everything" approach to defense would be almost impossible.[/SPOILER TAG]

Tim Duncan
[SPOILER TAG]Tim is still playing elite defense even at this age. He leads the entire NBA in DRPM, he is 2nd in the NBA for DRtg and is 6th at his position for DWS. He's also in the top 10 for Block:Personal Foul ratio, highlighting his veteran savvy. The Spurs are literally the best defensive team in this league and without Tim anchoring them at the back, it's safe to say that number would dip.[/SPOILER TAG]



All-NBA Defensive Second Team

Stephen Curry
[SPOILER TAG]Yep. Bet you didn't see this one coming. So, first of all the stats. Curry is top 5 for all (starting) point guards in DRPM and DRtg, he's 2nd for all point guards in DWS, he is top 5 in the league for steals and 2nd in the entire league for Steals:Personal Foul ratio and top 5 at his position for STL%

Out of all active players, only six guards in the league have had a season averaging 2 or more steals per game, with a DRtg of 103 or less and at least a DWS of 2.0 while playing less than 40mpg. Rondo, CP3, Tony Allen, Mike Conley, Russell Westbrook and Stephen Curry.

On the eye test you have to appreciate how his quick hands for shooting have become quick hands for defending. His quickness has him flipping passes out of the air with soccer goalie type reflexes, he's one of the best at deflecting passes out of pick and rolls. He doesn't reach in like he used to back when he had the "bad defender" label. In fact, his footwork has improved tremendously and he does a great job at staying in front of his man. He's also improved at applying pressure to opponents and forcing them to commit to one side of the court, and then keeping them there.

The two biggest arguments against Steph are A) Who is he guarding when putting up such great defensive numbers? and B) He can't defend the post and struggles against some of the more athletic guards.

But all being said, I am willing to argue his case for being on the all-defensive second team until I'm blue in the face. The kid deserves it. But due to having the label of a bad defender from his early years (hard to shake) and people being desperate to find flaws in his game to belittle his greatness, I know this is a battle I will never win haha.
[/SPOILER TAG]

Jimmy Butler
[SPOILER TAG]Despite only playing 50 games we all know Butler is one of the top flight wing defenders in this league. Along with Leonard and Iguodala. I don't think I need to use any stats to back this up, but feel free to look them up for yourself. [/SPOILER TAG]

Andrew Bogut
[SPOILER TAG]Another elite defensive player that doesn't always fill up the traditional box score numbers. Bogut is 3rd in the league for DRPM behind Draymond and Tim Duncan. He leads the league in DFGM (# of opponents field goals made when X is defending the shot) and top 5 in percentage points difference (difference between the normal FG% of a player and their FG% when being defended by X)

He is a true defensive anchor and deserving of another all-defensive second team appearance.
[/SPOILER TAG]

Paul Millsap
[SPOILER TAG]Millsap is top 10 at his position for DRPM, top 10 in defensive box plus minus, top 5 in the entire league for DRtg and top 3 in the league for DWS.

He is the only power forward in the top 14 for steals this season.

The Hawks, despite a lackluster follow up from last season are boasting a top 3 defense in the league (2nd in defensive efficiency). This is, in large part, thanks to Millsap and his versatility defensively.
[/SPOILER TAG]


I haven't decided on this last spot :(

basch152
03-13-2016, 12:10 PM
Is there really no better defensive center than 90 year old duncan?

Dade County
03-13-2016, 12:12 PM
? iDk
Butler
Kawhi
AD
Whiteside

Gander13SM
03-13-2016, 01:09 PM
Is there really no better defensive center than 90 year old duncan?

I mean the popular argument would be to argue a case for DJ or Whiteside. Both are uber athletes with great instincts for blocks, good nose for the ball. But last I checked both Miami and LAC had better defensive stats when those respective centers were on the bench (it's been a while since I checked so that could well be wrong).

Despite his arrogance and stat padding I would be inclined to side with Whiteside out of the two. But in reality they both have defensive weaknesses. I'm not sure either is as good defensively as the raw box score numbers suggest.

In fact, I would think Bogut, Gobert and Drummond have an argument to be made ahead of those two, even if it's just off the advanced metrics.

Scoots
03-13-2016, 03:37 PM
The top 2 PGs in DWS are Westbrook and Curry, and in DBPM it's Westbrook and Smart. I'm not saying they are my choices for all-defense, just that on those metrics those are the guys.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 03:44 PM
Is there really no better defensive center than 90 year old duncan?

Whiteside.

5ass
03-13-2016, 08:00 PM
The top 2 PGs in DWS are Westbrook and Curry, and in DBPM it's Westbrook and Smart. I'm not saying they are my choices for all-defense, just that on those metrics those are the guys.

Smart is the best defender among all guards IMO.

Smart
Oladipo
Leonard
Green
Gobert


Oladipo actually probably doesn't deserve to be there yet, but I can't think of anyone else right now. He has the ability to make it next season. He's been much better this year with Skiles.

Green_Monster
03-13-2016, 08:24 PM
Smart is the best defender among all guards IMO.

Smart
Oladipo
Leonard
Green
Gobert


Oladipo actually probably doesn't deserve to be there yet, but I can't think of anyone else right now. He has the ability to make it next season. He's been much better this year with Skiles.

Smart is so elite on defense. It's too bad his offensive game is lacking. If he even becomes an average offensive player, he's going to be really good.

mrblisterdundee
03-14-2016, 02:02 AM
All-NBA Defensive First Team: Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, Hassan Whiteside
All-NBA Defensive Second Team: Chris Paul, Andre Iguodala, Jae Crowder, Paul Milsap, Andre Drummond

85BearsDefense
03-14-2016, 02:19 AM
? iDk
Butler
Kawhi
AD
Whiteside

Lol at whiteside

MonroeFAN
03-14-2016, 08:16 AM
why lol @ whiteside?

I am probably the biggest non-miami fan in the world and I would vote for him. This use to be a a raw numbers game, now all of the sudden it's crazy to suggest that a guy blocking more shots per game than full teams is a DPOY candidate?

J_M_B
03-14-2016, 12:45 PM
Lol at whiteside

You're late.

He's turned Miami into a top 3 defense since the all star break. He's no longer just hunting for blocks.

tredigs
03-14-2016, 03:23 PM
I can't see an argument for Curry over Lowry or Smart or Rubio. Curry's D is underappreciated (he's just a smart/crafty defender who always seems to come up with big plays), but those three are all fantastic.

1st team:

G: Smart
G: Green
F: Kawhi
F: Draymond
C: Duncan

With the Spurs putting up one of the top 3 regular seasons in NBA history and doing it on the backs of their D, I feel fine having 3 spurs on the 1st Team.

2nd Team:

G: Lowry
G: Bradley
F: Crowder
F: Iguodala
C: Gobert

So, basically the Spurs and Celtics. I'm not on board with Jimmy Buckets this year defensively. He's definitely taken a step back.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2016, 03:38 PM
1st:

G- Smart
G- Green
F- Leonard
F- D. Green
C- Gobert

2nd:

G- Rubio
G- Lowry
F- Crowder
F- Milisap
C- Duncan

shep33
03-14-2016, 03:45 PM
Jose Calderon
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Slava Medvedenko
Enes Kanter

Gander13SM
03-15-2016, 04:56 AM
I can't see an argument for Curry over Lowry or Smart or Rubio. Curry's D is underappreciated (he's just a smart/crafty defender who always seems to come up with big plays), but those three are all fantastic.

1st team:

G: Smart
G: Green
F: Kawhi
F: Draymond
C: Duncan

With the Spurs putting up one of the top 3 regular seasons in NBA history and doing it on the backs of their D, I feel fine having 3 spurs on the 1st Team.

2nd Team:

G: Lowry
G: Bradley
F: Crowder
F: Iguodala
C: Gobert

So, basically the Spurs and Celtics. I'm not on board with Jimmy Buckets this year defensively. He's definitely taken a step back.

Well I mean, they don't positions for the all defense teams. So you could have all 4 of those PGs.

naps
03-15-2016, 05:21 AM
CP3
Lowry
Leonard
Green
Whiteside

Stunner
03-15-2016, 04:21 PM
Butler defense is still very much A1 despite not having a defensive anchor this season . He's done plenty of game winning defensive plays this season and just did one last night vs Toronto.

Alayla
03-15-2016, 08:59 PM
Really disappointed to see that Noel hasn't been mentioned yet he is some kind of monster at the defensive end but to be fair with such a bad team I kind of understand why people forget him.

FOXHOUND
03-15-2016, 09:57 PM
You're late.

He's turned Miami into a top 3 defense since the all star break. He's no longer just hunting for blocks.

Also hitting his FT's at a great clip.

13 GP
31.3 MPG
17.6 PPG
14.4 REB
3.7 BLK
1.7 TO
.576 from the field on 6.7-11.6
.809 from the line on 4.2-5.2

Big props to Spo for whatever he said to him in that conversation and having him buy into that 6th Man role he's absolutely dominating in.

Chronz
03-15-2016, 11:52 PM
Really disappointed to see that Noel hasn't been mentioned yet he is some kind of monster at the defensive end but to be fair with such a bad team I kind of understand why people forget him.

Tbf, hasn't he played out of position for a big chunk of the year?

CHANGO
03-16-2016, 12:01 AM
CP3
Butler
Kawhi
Draymond
Duncan (still think he is the anchor of that Spurs defense)

Lowry
Bradley
Iggy
Amir Johnson
Bogut

Rubio/Smart
Tony Allen/Oladipo
Lebron/Winslow
Noel
Gobert/Whiteside

TheTreys
03-16-2016, 05:17 AM
All 1st Defensive Team
G. John Wall
G. Jimmy Butler
F. Kawhi Leonard
F. Draymond Green
F/C. DeAndre Jordan

All Defensive 2cd Team
G. Russell Westbrook/Chris Paul
G. Tony Allen
F. Serge Iblaka
F. Pau Gasol
F/C. Hassan Whiteside

Scoots
03-17-2016, 12:30 AM
Does making the playoffs/being on a winner matter in your selections?

I think it should since defensive plays that help win games come with higher stakes and more scrutiny.

Hawkeye15
03-17-2016, 11:28 AM
Does making the playoffs/being on a winner matter in your selections?

I think it should since defensive plays that help win games come with higher stakes and more scrutiny.

I don't think it should factor in much. One elite defensive player can only do so much if the rest of his team lacks, especially a non-paint protector.

Scoots
03-17-2016, 01:04 PM
I don't think it should factor in much. One elite defensive player can only do so much if the rest of his team lacks, especially a non-paint protector.

But elite defensive players make the whole defense better. It's amazing going to games how many teams don't talk on D.

RCarlson85
03-17-2016, 01:23 PM
Lol at whiteside

Lol at you and everyone else not putting Whiteside on the list. He's averaging nearly 4 blocks a game and changing many other shots that he doesn't block. He is by far the best shot blocker in the NBA right now. He will be in the DPOY discussion and has a chance to win it.

Hawkeye15
03-17-2016, 01:51 PM
But elite defensive players make the whole defense better. It's amazing going to games how many teams don't talk on D.

I consider Rubio elite defensively, and his team has 21 wins and a poor defense. Not his fault some of his young players are either not physically strong enough at times, or get lost.

Scoots
03-18-2016, 12:38 AM
Lol at you and everyone else not putting Whiteside on the list. He's averaging nearly 4 blocks a game and changing many other shots that he doesn't block. He is by far the best shot blocker in the NBA right now. He will be in the DPOY discussion and has a chance to win it.

Whiteside's D is a lot better this year than last year, but Opp FG% at the rim is a center's biggest job and John Henson is currently best at that followed by last year's top guy Rudy Gobert. Whiteside is 22nd, right behind Tim Duncan. He has no chance at the DPOY, but he has a chance to finish in the top 5. He still seems to break the scheme from time to time, but he's playing a lot better on average.

IamAlwaysRight
03-20-2016, 03:51 PM
No guard plays defense anymore, in general.

europagnpilgrim
03-20-2016, 04:38 PM
Bradley
Green
Ariza
Leonard
CP3

warfelg
03-21-2016, 04:40 PM
Tbf, hasn't he played out of position for a big chunk of the year?

Pretty much. And the lack of the defense around him hasn't helped all that much.

But funny thing is despite all that he still posts impressive numbers:
1.5 blocks per game (1.9 last year)
1.9 per 36 (2.2 last year)
1.8 steals per game (1.8 last year)
2.9 steals per 36 (2.9 last year)
DRB% of 22.0 (21.0 last year)
STL% of 2.9
BLK% o 3.9 (5.0 last year)
DBPM 3.2 (4.5 last year)

5ass
03-21-2016, 05:50 PM
Pretty much. And the lack of the defense around him hasn't helped all that much.

But funny thing is despite all that he still posts impressive numbers:
1.5 blocks per game (1.9 last year)
1.9 per 36 (2.2 last year)
1.8 steals per game (1.8 last year)
2.9 steals per 36 (2.9 last year)
DRB% of 22.0 (21.0 last year)
STL% of 2.9
BLK% o 3.9 (5.0 last year)
DBPM 3.2 (4.5 last year)

Just watching the sixes I feel his defensive impact dropped. Not close to Gobert, but more like Derrick Favors. Still very good, but I wouldn't consider him for an all defensive team. JMO

warfelg
03-21-2016, 05:59 PM
Just watching the sixes I feel his defensive impact dropped. Not close to Gobert, but more like Derrick Favors. Still very good, but I wouldn't consider him for an all defensive team. JMO

Last year he had Ish, Hollis, Cov, Grant, Luc a Mu Abateeihr (to lazy for real spelling).

This year he played PF taking away rim protection ability, and has logged a ton of minutes with the 4 worst guards defensively in the NBA with McConnell, Marshall, Canaan, and Stauskis. And a top 10 historically terrible defensive season from Okafor.

Scoots
03-28-2016, 10:10 PM
Apparently Coach Nick chooses Steph at PG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKCyNvnt7k

5ass
03-28-2016, 10:32 PM
Last year he had Ish, Hollis, Cov, Grant, Luc a Mu Abateeihr (to lazy for real spelling).

This year he played PF taking away rim protection ability, and has logged a ton of minutes with the 4 worst guards defensively in the NBA with McConnell, Marshall, Canaan, and Stauskis. And a top 10 historically terrible defensive season from Okafor.

I understand this, but Noel shares some of the blame because he couldn't adjust as well as he should've. He didn't really prove effective from the PF spot. I'm saying the end result (his impact) isn't worthy of all defensive team consideration.

5ass
03-28-2016, 10:35 PM
Apparently Coach Nick chooses Steph at PG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKCyNvnt7k

Coach Nick is just looking for clicks. I remember when in the offseason he said the Lakers would make the play offs.

ewing
03-28-2016, 10:55 PM
imagine how many games the sixers would have lost w/o Noel's defense.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 12:23 AM
Coach Nick is just looking for clicks. I remember when in the offseason he said the Lakers would make the play offs.

Of course he is ... doesn't mean he all the way wrong though :)

And I don't remember him saying that about the LA Tankers.

Howard_Zinn
03-29-2016, 01:01 AM
Caldwell-Pope is a great defender. He gets after it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns-ZqpqGIuE

warfelg
03-29-2016, 07:54 AM
I understand this, but Noel shares some of the blame because he couldn't adjust as well as he should've. He didn't really prove effective from the PF spot. I'm saying the end result (his impact) isn't worthy of all defensive team consideration.

Not saying he should definitely be on an all defensive team.

But as for him not adjusting as well as he should have:
Much of what makes him valuable as a shot blocker is natural instincts with timing of when to slide over and when to jump. His instincts are on point when he sees the play developing in front of him and reacts to that. He struggled being able to do that when he was guarding the 4 and wasn't always near the low post to be able to move.

Sure theoretically he's longer faster and more agile than Okafor so he should be able to cover a 4, and he could, but his best defensive asset was negated by that.

All those things needed to be a high level shot blocker at the 4 are things that Jerami Grant does very well. He's a great weak side rotational help defender.

Pfeifer
03-29-2016, 11:22 AM
Kyle Lowry is a game changer on defence. I dont know how many times ive seen him create offensive fouls when they are down. Brings the double team creating steals on the regular. I like Curry and watch them alot but there is no way he should be there imo.

Id like to give a shout out to Bismack Biyombo. Not that hes in the convo but he has really playsd well lately for the raps. Been a beast rebounding and defending in the post.

Scoots
03-29-2016, 01:20 PM
Kyle Lowry is a game changer on defence. I dont know how many times ive seen him create offensive fouls when they are down. Brings the double team creating steals on the regular. I like Curry and watch them alot but there is no way he should be there imo.

Id like to give a shout out to Bismack Biyombo. Not that hes in the convo but he has really playsd well lately for the raps. Been a beast rebounding and defending in the post.

Biyombo is going to get overpaid.

WaDe03
03-29-2016, 11:24 PM
Whiteside should win it. He's blocked more shots than some teams and his defense all around has gotten better and better as the year goes on.

Scoots
03-30-2016, 12:12 AM
Whiteside should win it. He's blocked more shots than some teams and his defense all around has gotten better and better as the year goes on.

He's gotten better, but DPOY is Kawhi's to lose.

Last I checked based on opp fg% Kawhi was the best perimeter defender, Draymond was the best post defender, Whiteside had the most blocks. Some people value rebound numbers as defense ... I don't but some of the voters do so who knows who will get some of the votes.