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KnicksorBust
03-09-2016, 03:54 PM
Kawhi Leonard - 6'7 / 230 lbs / All-Defensive 1st team

20.8ppg / 6.8rpg / 2.5apg / 1.8spg shooting 51/47/88 for a TS% of 62% and PER of 25.8 (6th)

If the NBA rosters were wiped clean and started from scratch, where would you draft Kawhi Leonard? (Assume that this is for just one season, ala PSD Redraft)

KnicksorBust
03-09-2016, 03:59 PM
I completely admit I never thought he would be THIS good offensively. It's amazing what he's doing on the Spurs this season. He could legitimately be a top 3 player at this point. After Curry and Bron... it's becoming a toss-up with him/KD/AD/CP3/Westbrook

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 04:03 PM
Top 10.

While I agree that he is a beast defensively, he is playing on the Spurs, he have a GREAT team.

I would pick (in no order)

Curry
Lebron
Durant
Westy
Blake
CP3
Lillard
Lowry
Davis
(maybe) PG13

before him. Maybe I'm forgetting some players too so he should fall on the Top 15 range.

Vee-Rex
03-09-2016, 04:03 PM
Yup, for sure.

Kawhi is # 4 on my list behind Curry, LeBron, and Durant.

I'm sorry, but his defense is spectacular AND he's extremely efficient offensively. He's still very underrated IMO.

I didn't put him over Durant because a great offense always trumps great defense and IMO Durant could average an efficient 34ppg if he took enough shots and was featured. I really think Westie is holding him back a little.

I didn't put him over LeBron because Bron-ball still has the biggest impact on any team other than Curry's video-game style. Lebron may be declining but his affect on the court for his team's success is incredible.

And I didn't put him over Curry for the obvious reasons.

Vee-Rex
03-09-2016, 04:07 PM
If Kawhi took more shots and averaged 25ppg on similar efficiency then he shoots up to #2 for me. And I think he could do it, it just remains to be seen (being in the Spurs system obviously limits his individual accolades).

tredigs
03-09-2016, 04:09 PM
Top 10.

While I agree that he is a beast defensively, he is playing on the Spurs, he have a GREAT team.

I would pick (in no order)

Curry
Lebron
Durant
Westy
Blake
CP3
Lillard
Lowry
Davis
(maybe) PG13

before him. Maybe I'm forgetting some players too so he should fall on the Top 15 range.

HELL no to Lillard/Lowry/PG/Blake. Also Butler > PG as far as 2 way wings in the East go. Might as well throw Kyrie in there while you're at it. AD has not impressed defensively, I could not have him in there either.

He's right there in the top 5 discussion right now. He's VERY smart offensively and plays his role to a T. Which at this point is a significant role (the #1 option on a ~70 win team). And he's flat out the best wing defender of the current generation.

Jay 20
03-09-2016, 04:09 PM
I went with top 10, but I think he is very close to top 5. I'd put Curry, LBJ, Durant, Westbrook, AD and CP3 all over him at this point, but Davis may be slipping for me some.

As far as a pretend draft he may be the #2 or #3 pick because the dude is only 24...

IndyRealist
03-09-2016, 04:40 PM
Top 10.

While I agree that he is a beast defensively, he is playing on the Spurs, he have a GREAT team.

I would pick (in no order)

Curry
Lebron
Durant
Westy
Blake
CP3
Lillard
Lowry
Davis
(maybe) PG13

before him. Maybe I'm forgetting some players too so he should fall on the Top 15 range.

I will trade you PG straight up for Leonard, right now.

What's a shame is that the Pacers should have had both of them. Scary.

valade16
03-09-2016, 04:44 PM
I would take him 4th after Curry, Bron, and KD.

ewing
03-09-2016, 05:10 PM
I would take him 4th after Curry, Bron, and KD.

I think this is right. I answer top 3 but this is what i think. You could make a case for AD i think but he is definitely top 5 and i would take him 4

valade16
03-09-2016, 05:34 PM
I think this is right. I answer top 3 but this is what i think. You could make a case for AD i think but he is definitely top 5 and i would take him 4

The crazy thing is, AD plays a position where it's easier to have a greater defensive effect and yet Kawhi has the greater defensive impact.

tredigs
03-09-2016, 05:38 PM
Yeah, AD's D has disappointed. I can give him a break on not getting better offensively because frankly he's in a terrible fit, but the D should look better than it has. Frankly Towns will be better than him by next season.

5ass
03-09-2016, 06:23 PM
Who would've thought he'd be an elite shooter. 47% from 3. Wow. That's the value of great character and work ethic.

europagnpilgrim
03-09-2016, 06:50 PM
Just off him being proclaimed by many that he is the best two way player in the league, wouldn't that make him by default a top 5 player? PER and TS shouldn't even matter if he is said by many to be the best two way player, to me that automatically puts you in top 5 easily, debatable top 3, unless you play for the boring spurs or a so called small market team

had he been doing this for the lakers or knicks he would steal votes from Curry this year in mvp which seems to be pretty much a landslide for the bay area long range bomber

SPURSFAN1
03-09-2016, 07:10 PM
2nd best player in the league. 53-10 win team. Dude is carrying.

SPURSFAN1
03-09-2016, 07:13 PM
Highest point differential ever.:clap:

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 07:20 PM
HELL no to Lillard/Lowry/PG/Blake. Also Butler > PG as far as 2 way wings in the East go. Might as well throw Kyrie in there while you're at it. AD has not impressed defensively, I could not have him in there either.

He's right there in the top 5 discussion right now. He's VERY smart offensively and plays his role to a T. Which at this point is a significant role (the #1 option on a ~70 win team). And he's flat out the best wing defender of the current generation.

I just think he is greatly helped by the fact he is on the Spurs.

PG I said maybe because he is too inconsistent. And I went with AD for potential, because I'm still expecting something better out of him.

IndyRealist
03-09-2016, 07:35 PM
Just off him being proclaimed by many that he is the best two way player in the league, wouldn't that make him by default a top 5 player? PER and TS shouldn't even matter if he is said by many to be the best two way player, to me that automatically puts you in top 5 easily, debatable top 3, unless you play for the boring spurs or a so called small market team

had he been doing this for the lakers or knicks he would steal votes from Curry this year in mvp which seems to be pretty much a landslide for the bay area long range bomber

"If it is said by many" isn't a good basis for analysis. Many say Donald Trump would make a good President, doesn't make it true.

But for the record, 61.7% TS.

Dade County
03-09-2016, 07:46 PM
Between 7-10... I would pick him around that area.

KD
AD
Westbrook
Curry (his team is a cheat code unlocked, dont know how he would do on a startup team)
Lbj (i can make a team around him faster then Kawhi)
Blake (talent & drawing in fans to my franchise)

SPURSFAN1
03-09-2016, 07:53 PM
:laugh:

DboneG
03-09-2016, 08:05 PM
1. Curry
2. LBJ
3. Durant
4.Westbrook
5. AD
6. CP3

jerellh528
03-09-2016, 08:10 PM
If I were starting a team from scratch for one season? In a snake style draft, I would select him 3rd right behind KD and curry. I'd say he's a top 5 player.

ManningToTyree
03-09-2016, 08:50 PM
You could argue him at #2 but I'm not ready to put him over lebron or KD. Arguably 4 with russy/AD.

If we are drafting from scratch is out Towns in there too I think he's going to be that good.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 09:38 PM
#2 player in the league without a doubt for me... He's the most complete player in the league on both sides of the floor. If PPG are going to be people's argument why he's not better than Bron or KD he's just a great team player that doesn't care about personal accolades he cares about the spurs and winning above all else and that sky rockets his value considerably.

Kush McDaniels
03-09-2016, 09:47 PM
Top 5

Incredible defender.

Productive, and efficient as if gets on offence, and he's still so young.

... and since it matters to some people - he's proven in the finals.

nastynice
03-10-2016, 04:35 AM
I'd say tier 1 would be curry, lebron, and kd

I'd put kawhi in tier 2 (with guys like westbrook, cp3, blake griffin, etc), probably toward the top of tier 2 as we can see him climbing more and more as time goes by.

So I'd say he can rightfully be argued as a top 5

nastynice
03-10-2016, 04:37 AM
2nd best player in the league. 53-10 win team. Dude is carrying.

i'm legitimately shocked u have him ranked that low, lol, dead up

SPURSFAN1
03-10-2016, 05:08 AM
Can't say MVP right now, but top 10 is more shocking tbh. lol

KnicksorBust
03-10-2016, 08:57 AM
Yup, for sure.

Kawhi is # 4 on my list behind Curry, LeBron, and Durant.

I'm sorry, but his defense is spectacular AND he's extremely efficient offensively. He's still very underrated IMO.

I didn't put him over Durant because a great offense always trumps great defense and IMO Durant could average an efficient 34ppg if he took enough shots and was featured. I really think Westie is holding him back a little.

I didn't put him over LeBron because Bron-ball still has the biggest impact on any team other than Curry's video-game style. Lebron may be declining but his affect on the court for his team's success is incredible.

And I didn't put him over Curry for the obvious reasons.

I have a tough time deciding between him and Westbrook. I like Kawhi better as a player but I think it might be easier to build a team around Westbrook.

t_money25
03-10-2016, 10:06 AM
He's definitely top 5. There a lot more to the game than just putting the ball in the basket. Leonard has all of those bases covered. I'd even say he's top 4.....

It's a shame that offensive minded players get all the praise. I'd even argue that defense is more important than offense.

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 10:37 AM
I see a bunch of people saying he's top 5 knocking at a lot of doors to move up so I guess my question is what does he have to move up???

He's arguably the best defender in the league (hes the best in my mind), has the best 3 point percentage out of all 3 players (mind you though he doesn't have the volume but he shoots wisely)

Right now he's the best 2 way player in the game and yes even over Lebron James.

Steve Kerr was recently quoted as saying so also.LINK (http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25461446/steve-kerr-calls-spurs-kawhi-leonard-best-two-way-player-in-nba)


So with a lot of people saying he's almost there to be top 3 or higher what else does this guy have to do because we know he's probably the most unselfish player in the league and scores, passes, defends... Etc for THE SPURS not himself and puts aside all the personal glory dude doesn't even celebrate after fantastic plays he just goes right back on defense so my question is what else does this guy have to do to rise in the ranks in those that doubt him?

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 11:32 AM
He is a top 5 player this season. I wonder if he turns out this good being drafted by a different team, but that really doesn't matter at this point.

Arguably the best wing defender in the game currently, efficient offensively. For sure top 5. I would probably only take Curry, and Durant ahead of him right now starting from scratch if I was building a team, but that is me.

tredigs
03-10-2016, 12:06 PM
I see a bunch of people saying he's top 5 knocking at a lot of doors to move up so I guess my question is what does he have to move up???

He's arguably the best defender in the league (hes the best in my mind), has the best 3 point percentage out of all 3 players (mind you though he doesn't have the volume but he shoots wisely)

Right now he's the best 2 way player in the game and yes even over Lebron James.

Steve Kerr was recently quoted as saying so also.LINK (http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25461446/steve-kerr-calls-spurs-kawhi-leonard-best-two-way-player-in-nba)


So with a lot of people saying he's almost there to be top 3 or higher what else does this guy have to do because we know he's probably the most unselfish player in the league and scores, passes, defends... Etc for THE SPURS not himself and puts aside all the personal glory dude doesn't even celebrate after fantastic plays he just goes right back on defense so my question is what else does this guy have to do to rise in the ranks in those that doubt him?

To me, he'd need absolute takeover offensive ability where he can go on stretches where he demoralizes the other teams defense for it to be clear that he is top 5. Despite the idea that many fans who consider themselves above ESPN, etc want to push, a single players defense - specifically at the wing position - will very rarely be as important to a team as a whole as this ability offers. Team defense is incredibly important, but when one player has the ability to warp an entire opposing defense and score + create easy buckets at will for 5+ minute stretches, that is what true domination is (Curry/KD/'Bron/Westbrook all have this). Mind you, Kawhi DOES have this to a lesser extent right now; his O is very, very solid and his D is so good that he is currently top 5 for me.

But, to answer your question, it's that ability to take over games, not just take over your role in the game that would allow him to be a no-brainer top 5 and arguably higher. As is, I'd definitely rather have KD or Lebron on my team.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 12:43 PM
To me, he'd need absolute takeover offensive ability where he can go on stretches where he demoralizes the other teams defense for it to be clear that he is top 5. Despite the idea that many fans who consider themselves above ESPN, etc want to push, a single players defense - specifically at the wing position - will very rarely be as important to a team as a whole as this ability offers. Team defense is incredibly important, but when one player has the ability to warp an entire opposing defense and score + create easy buckets at will for 5+ minute stretches, that is what true domination is (Curry/KD/'Bron/Westbrook all have this). Mind you, Kawhi DOES have this to a lesser extent right now; his O is very, very solid and his D is so good that he is currently top 5 for me.

But, to answer your question, it's that ability to take over games, not just take over your role in the game that would allow him to be a no-brainer top 5 and arguably higher. As is, I'd definitely rather have KD or Lebron on my team.

The Spurs system is kind of at fault here too. But, Duncan still had takeover periods.

It's why I say, in a nutshell, yes, he is top 5. But would he be top 5 if he played for most other teams?

I just have such a hard time ranking Spurs. They could mold Hellen Keller into a productive corner shooter for Christ's sake.

KnicksorBust
03-10-2016, 12:45 PM
He is a top 5 player this season. I wonder if he turns out this good being drafted by a different team, but that really doesn't matter at this point.

Arguably the best wing defender in the game currently, efficient offensively. For sure top 5. I would probably only take Curry, and Durant ahead of him right now starting from scratch if I was building a team, but that is me.

What would happen if the he woke up tomorrow in a Kings jersey?

kdspurman
03-10-2016, 12:47 PM
Kawhi has taken over games offensively already though ^ he's done it a few times this year. He has the capability if need be, there's no question about it.

Obviously I agree he's top 5 and don't blame anyone if they said they'd take lebron or durant, etc... but kawhi definitely can take over games offensively.

tredigs
03-10-2016, 01:37 PM
Kawhi has taken over games offensively already though ^ he's done it a few times this year. He has the capability if need be, there's no question about it.

Obviously I agree he's top 5 and don't blame anyone if they said they'd take lebron or durant, etc... but kawhi definitely can take over games offensively.

Not to a Curry/Durant/Lebron level though, and not as often as they do. Part of that is him playing his role, part of that is that he simply does not have their offensive ability, and frankly never will. It's not a knock on him, they are All-Timers on the offensive end.

kdspurman
03-10-2016, 02:18 PM
Not to a Curry/Durant/Lebron level though, and not as often as they do. Part of that is him playing his role, part of that is that he simply does not have their offensive ability, and frankly never will. It's not a knock on him, they are All-Timers on the offensive end.

They've had leads of like 20+ in I "think" 49 of the games they've played, so he also hasn't really had to either.

But there are games where he has for sure. Him not doing it as often, idk that might not be a bad thing lol. It's something he's done though , and I think he's comfortable doing it.

I disagree with him never having the offensive ability of Lebron though. I think his offensive game is already more advanced than Lebron's was this early. His post game, foot work, outside shooting, etc are all better than Lebron's 3-4 years in. He isn't the playmaker, but in terms of scoring in a variety of ways, I think he's got the edge

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 02:28 PM
Kawhi has taken over games offensively already though ^ he's done it a few times this year. He has the capability if need be, there's no question about it.

Obviously I agree he's top 5 and don't blame anyone if they said they'd take lebron or durant, etc... but kawhi definitely can take over games offensively.

he shouldn't be penalized because he isn't asked to do it often, no doubt.

tredigs
03-10-2016, 02:32 PM
They've had leads of like 20+ in I "think" 49 of the games they've played, so he also hasn't really had to either.

But there are games where he has for sure. Him not doing it as often, idk that might not be a bad thing lol. It's something he's done though , and I think he's comfortable doing it.

I disagree with him never having the offensive ability of Lebron though. I think his offensive game is already more advanced than Lebron's was this early. His post game, foot work, outside shooting, etc are all better than Lebron's 3-4 years in. He isn't the playmaker, but in terms of scoring in a variety of ways, I think he's got the edge

Yeah, I definitely disagree here. While he does do things on offense better than Lebron, there is no world where he has the innate talent to dominate on that end at the level that Lebron was. Consider that at 24 (Kawhi's age), Lebron had already averaged 29 and 7 the prior 4 seasons for a team where he was the only player opposing defenses were worried about. He was coming off being the leagues scoring leader and averaged 35/9/7 in the playoffs that season through 2 sweeps before falling to the Magic in the ECF's (elite D, PER of 37, WS/48 ~.400. In short, legendary). Kawhi's not that level of player on offense, he just flat out isn't. Incredibly well rounded and has the fundamentals down to a T? Yep. But true transcendence with the ability to break down any and all sorts of defenses who are 100% gameplanning for you, passing wiith the vision of an elite PG and scoring with the ferociousness of any past All-Time Great on ultra high volume every night? Nope.

kdspurman
03-10-2016, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I definitely disagree here. While he does do things on offense better than Lebron, there is no world where he has the innate talent to dominate on that end at the level that Lebron was. Consider that at 24 (Kawhi's age), Lebron had already averaged 29 and 7 the prior 4 seasons for a team where he was the only player opposing defenses were worried about. He was coming off being the leagues scoring leader and averaged 35/9/7 in the playoffs that season through 2 sweeps before falling to the Magic in the ECF's (elite D, PER of 37, WS/48 ~.400. In short, legendary). Kawhi's not that level of player on offense, he just flat out isn't. Incredibly well rounded and has the fundamentals down to a T? Yep. Transcendent with the ability to break down all sorts of defenses and pass with the vision of an elite PG and score with the ferociousness of any past All-Time Great? Nope.

I'm not talking about PPG... I'm talking about offensive skills/versatility. They were obviously in different situations, too. But I think Kawhi has a more all around offensive/scoring game than Lebron did at this time. I said he doesn't have the playmaking ability. I'm talking about fundamentals, and skill. Lebron's game early on was really about driving in and making things happen. He couldn't shoot all that well early on, he didn't start posting till much later in his career, and started shooting higher % shots.

It took him years to start doing those things. Kawhi is already doing them now. So I disagreed with you saying he never could get to that offensive ability, when it seems his offensive ability is already ahead of the curve in comparison. Maybe we just think of offensive ability differently, I'm taking it literally and thinking in terms of his "ability to do different things offensively". Will he ever get to the usage of a Lebron and score as much? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't what I was arguing

tredigs
03-10-2016, 02:57 PM
I'm simply speaking to a players ability to completely take over that end of the floor, be it innate or learned ability, brute force, or otherwise. Especially when that player is the driving force of all opposing coaches gameplans. Also, I'm not sure that Kawhi's ceiling offensively is going to be significantly better than what we're seeing. In a different system where he was the sole driving force of an offense (especially one without a proper coach/system), what he gained in volume I have a feeling he'd more than give up in efficiency.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But I certainly have never seen that "transcendent" level that I'm talking about offensively with Kawhi.

shep33
03-10-2016, 03:12 PM
Yes, considering what he does on the defensive end, without a doubt. Best two way player in the NBA. People need to stop looking on just the offensive side of the ball

tredigs
03-10-2016, 03:24 PM
Yes, considering what he does on the defensive end, without a doubt. Best two way player in the NBA. People need to stop looking on just the offensive side of the ball

Considering ~80% of the votes have him top 5 and only 1 has him outside of the top 10, along with him being a consensus top 3 MVP candidate this season, it's safe to say that people don't just look at the offensive side of the ball.

Scoots
03-10-2016, 03:24 PM
If I was starting a team ... #1 Curry, #2 Kawhi

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 04:55 PM
What would happen if the he woke up tomorrow in a Kings jersey?

I have absolutely no idea.

I am with Tre here, in that I am not sure he could be a night in, night out high volume offensive bad *** that other teams are constantly game planning for. But what I do know is, under the Spurs system, and offense, he is wildly efficient and good on that end.

mngopher35
03-10-2016, 05:07 PM
I think he is a top 5 player at this point but not quite top 3. I think after the playoffs depending on his performance he could arguably be ranked that high though.

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 05:30 PM
@tredigs and @kdspursman

I understand both your points but I will say this I feel he's only #5 in most people's minds because of the system he's in and how unselfish that system is as well in addition to them being the best team in the West not called Golden State and they have the largest point differential of any team in the league right now so it would be extremely rare if not impossible to see Kawhi have to take over a game personally. Maybe we'll see something like this come the playoffs to change peoples minds who have doubts but with all I mentioned above he has no need to get more PPG or anything else which is why I still have him at #2 and think he's the best 2 way player in the league on the most boring team.

Rain City
03-10-2016, 06:10 PM
i can't argue with Kawhi being a top 5 all around/MVP player right now. just watch what he does to lebron defensively, and he has become one of the most efficient offensive players in the game.

definitely doesnt hurt what system he has grown up in but why hold it against him. he's extremely talented and hard working, possibly etching a 1st ballot HOF career.

Gametime
03-10-2016, 06:36 PM
I would draft him second overall.

kdspurman
03-10-2016, 07:16 PM
@tredigs and @kdspursman

I understand both your points but I will say this I feel he's only #5 in most people's minds because of the system he's in and how unselfish that system is as well in addition to them being the best team in the West not called Golden State and they have the largest point differential of any team in the league right now so it would be extremely rare if not impossible to see Kawhi have to take over a game personally. Maybe we'll see something like this come the playoffs to change peoples minds who have doubts but with all I mentioned above he has no need to get more PPG or anything else which is why I still have him at #2 and think he's the best 2 way player in the league on the most boring team.

Yea, his PPG isn't really appealing enough to many. I will say, with his development, if he was in another system where he had free range, I have little doubt he would be able to up his scoring numbers even more and carry teams offensively. Now, his defense might take a slight dip (though it might not cause his motor is always running) but he's capable of being that main guy if you need a bucket.

Since his 3rd or 4th year, I've felt he could become special and many thought he was pretty much just a defense guy with no offensive ability. He's proving a lot of people wrong, and I think he'll continue to do so.

Saw this recently:


His concurrent marks of 20.5 points on 51.5 percent shooting and 48.8 percent on 3-pointers is tremendous in its own right, but take into account his 95 defensive rating and you have a truly singular season, one that's never been seen before.

He's just incredible, and his effort that he puts on both ends of the floor consistently makes him a truly rare talent in today's NBA

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 11:08 PM
@tredigs and @kdspursman

I understand both your points but I will say this I feel he's only #5 in most people's minds because of the system he's in and how unselfish that system is as well in addition to them being the best team in the West not called Golden State and they have the largest point differential of any team in the league right now so it would be extremely rare if not impossible to see Kawhi have to take over a game personally. Maybe we'll see something like this come the playoffs to change peoples minds who have doubts but with all I mentioned above he has no need to get more PPG or anything else which is why I still have him at #2 and think he's the best 2 way player in the league on the most boring team.

Yea, his PPG isn't really appealing enough to many. I will say, with his development, if he was in another system where he had free range, I have little doubt he would be able to up his scoring numbers even more and carry teams offensively. Now, his defense might take a slight dip (though it might not cause his motor is always running) but he's capable of being that main guy if you need a bucket.

Since his 3rd or 4th year, I've felt he could become special and many thought he was pretty much just a defense guy with no offensive ability. He's proving a lot of people wrong, and I think he'll continue to do so.

Saw this recently:


His concurrent marks of 20.5 points on 51.5 percent shooting and 48.8 percent on 3-pointers is tremendous in its own right, but take into account his 95 defensive rating and you have a truly singular season, one that's never been seen before.

He's just incredible, and his effort that he puts on both ends of the floor consistently makes him a truly rare talent in today's NBA

All the stats you mentioned I saw already he's shooting 3s at a better percentage than Curry minus the volume of Curry but still if you need a bucket he's the guy to pass the ball to and of you need a stop or to stop a player he's the guy to guard him. I'm not a huge spurs fan but he's without a doubt to me the most complete player in the league today with what he does on both ends of the floor.

Sadds The Gr8
03-11-2016, 04:46 AM
I have a tough time deciding between him and Westbrook. I like Kawhi better as a player but I think it might be easier to build a team around Westbrook.

This is what I was gonna say.

Sadds The Gr8
03-11-2016, 04:48 AM
I have absolutely no idea.

I am with Tre here, in that I am not sure he could be a night in, night out high volume offensive bad *** that other teams are constantly game planning for. But what I do know is, under the Spurs system, and offense, he is wildly efficient and good on that end.

also agree with this

KnicksorBust
03-11-2016, 01:01 PM
I'm not talking about PPG... I'm talking about offensive skills/versatility. They were obviously in different situations, too. But I think Kawhi has a more all around offensive/scoring game than Lebron did at this time. I said he doesn't have the playmaking ability. I'm talking about fundamentals, and skill. Lebron's game early on was really about driving in and making things happen. He couldn't shoot all that well early on, he didn't start posting till much later in his career, and started shooting higher % shots.

It took him years to start doing those things. Kawhi is already doing them now. So I disagreed with you saying he never could get to that offensive ability, when it seems his offensive ability is already ahead of the curve in comparison. Maybe we just think of offensive ability differently, I'm taking it literally and thinking in terms of his "ability to do different things offensively". Will he ever get to the usage of a Lebron and score as much? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't what I was arguing

This is why his improvement this season is so impressive and (to me) shocking. He led the Spurs in ppg last season with 16.5ppg. This year he's at about 21ppg. That is not typical of Spurs teams. I went back and checked it would be the highest points per game average since Tony Parker in 2009. That says a lot about his talent that Pop is giving him this much opportunity and that his efficiency is so outstanding that you could argue they could even give him the ball more.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2016, 01:02 PM
Would current LeBron even average 25ppg in the Spurs system? I don't know. He'd probably have more assists than Kawhi but I don't know about the points.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2016, 01:07 PM
Would current LeBron even average 25ppg in the Spurs system? I don't know. He'd probably have more assists than Kawhi but I don't know about the points.

current? No. Pops wouldn't play a guy with that many minutes under his belt more than 29 mpg haha

tredigs
03-11-2016, 01:46 PM
Would current LeBron even average 25ppg in the Spurs system? I don't know. He'd probably have more assists than Kawhi but I don't know about the points.
Lebron doesn't quite average 25 as is. I don't think that's a knock or a bonus necessarily. Obviously each team has their own wants/needs depending on the roster and the coaches philosophy. You can remove the "probably" from "...have more assists", though. Kawhi's a smart passer, certainly not a great one. He's peaking at 2.5 apg on a ~25% USG currently. That's equivalent to Lebron midway through the 2nd quarter as a rookie. I feel like I should include the requisite, "obviously assists are not the end-all", but let's be real here, watch one game of the two and you know that one is quite a few leaps ahead of the other in that realm.

That said, in the Spurs system in particular, I would not trade Kawhi for Lebron. Even if by and large I'd still rather lean on Lebron than Kawhi for a single season push, there are a few teams where Kawhi would the better choice, and San Antonio is definitely one of them. And ironically, Cleveland might be another.

Gametime
03-11-2016, 01:56 PM
LeBron would get less assists. Spurs are a swing it team. 10 passes to get one assist. The odds of LeBron being the one making the last pass each time are minimal.

He would average about 22ppg with 4 assist for the Spurs in 31 minutes a game.

MonroeFAN
03-11-2016, 04:55 PM
Top 3.

Curry, Lebron & Leonard. Any order, likely Curry / Leonard / Lebron

Chronz
03-11-2016, 06:36 PM
Would current LeBron even average 25ppg in the Spurs system? I don't know. He'd probably have more assists than Kawhi but I don't know about the points.

Pop has said in the past that he would augment the system to fit his talent, as he has in the past. Bron would still run plenty of the offense himself. He'd be a different Bron but they would suffer most defensively.

Bron has been complaining about his minutes for 5-6 years now so he would welcome a team like the Spurs. Bron gets to cruise but he doesn't get to rest much.

SPURSFAN1
03-11-2016, 07:09 PM
lol

tredigs
03-11-2016, 09:30 PM
LeBron would get less assists. Spurs are a swing it team. 10 passes to get one assist. The odds of LeBron being the one making the last pass each time are minimal.

He would average about 22ppg with 4 assist for the Spurs in 31 minutes a game.

Yeah, definitely no scenario where he averages 4 assists. He's collapsed on drives defensively + passes to the right player too effortlessly for this ever to be the case while he's still in his prime or close to it. You have a fundamental lack of knowledge going on here.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-11-2016, 09:51 PM
He's been the 2nd/3rd best player in the league this year, but in a redraft, I'd probably Curry/Lebron/Durant/AD/Kawhi.

flea
03-12-2016, 02:36 AM
I'd take him top 5 at this point. I never imagined he'd be as good of a shooter as he is, but he worked at it and he is. Almost anyone can improve their jumper but what he's done is very rare and it's obvious it took a lot of work.

His offensive game is fun to watch because it's so versatile. He's the closest thing the league has to Kobe or MJ now - a highly versatile wing with footwork, shooting, and an all-around game. He's no where near as athletic as MJ, and not even in Kobe's league, but he knows it and doesn't attempt ridiculous shots. He simply gets to his spots and shoots, using footwork, strength, screens, and fakes. If he gets any better he'll be in the class with Curry and Durant as best scorers in the game - as is he's among the best.

Defense? Everyone knows. He's reigning DPOY and won his FMVP because of defense alone. He's great, and what's cool is he's not even aggressive. Danny Green is the more aggressive perimeter man on the Spurs. He just plays disciplined and uses his length on the ball and anticipation off the ball to make plays. He rarely is out of position and rebounds his position very well - he's the Tim Duncan of wings on defense. He'll be good when his athleticism is gone even because he doesn't play a frenetic defensive wing style like Lebron or some of the better defensive guards of years past.

IMO only 3 guys have arguments for being better than him. I won't get into whether I think he's better now, the playoffs will likely show us what all 4 can do at this point in their careers.