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View Full Version : Lebron, Jordan, Curry...here is my question.



IKnowHoops
03-09-2016, 02:52 AM
I want to ask a question that has a few "for arguments sakes" up in there but bare with me, as I thought about this I kind of thought it was a good question.

For arguments sake lets say...

.........these three players 3 year peaks are equal

..........these three players on-court impact is equal

...........these three players advanced statistics are equal



Do we then say that these guys during there three players are equals?

Or does being great at a particular skill worth more than another even if the overall impact of each player was equal?

Best Scorer
Best Defender
Best Passer
Most Versatile
Best Rebounder
Win most games
Win most titles
Win most MVP
Win most Finals MVP
Career Statistics

Would being the best at one of these sway you one way or the other?

Ok I know I have asked a lot of questions but here is my one question for you based on all the questions Ive asked.

Would you consider these 3 equals based on them having equal advanced stats, impact and 3 year peaks, or would one of the above skills/awards make you ignore equal impact, and if so which one is most important?

Scoots
03-09-2016, 10:10 AM
For their advanced stats to be equal they would have to be winning at the same rate too ... so my top secondary tie breaker ... winning ... wouldn't apply.

Tony_Starks
03-09-2016, 10:38 AM
If all stats are equal I separate greatness by the intangibles.



And I've never been a grammar nazi but your wording is confusing AF btw....

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 10:41 AM
If all stats are equal then it comes down to leadership and from what I can see Curry is a better team leader as well as Jordan so I would not consider them equal.

Lebron continuing to send Twitter shots against his teammates and other throw his teammates under the bus tactics publicly does not show good leadership in my opinion. Seems like he doesn't want to take ownership for anything going on with that squad unless they are winning.

Hawkeye15
03-09-2016, 11:54 AM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

Hawkeye15
03-09-2016, 11:55 AM
If all stats are equal then it comes down to leadership and from what I can see Curry is a better team leader as well as Jordan so I would not consider them equal.

Lebron continuing to send Twitter shots against his teammates and other throw his teammates under the bus tactics publicly does not show good leadership in my opinion. Seems like he doesn't want to take ownership for anything going on with that squad unless they are winning.

Does demanding a trade post winning chips come off as a leader? How about punching your teammate in practice?

IndyRealist
03-09-2016, 12:16 PM
If all stats are equal I separate greatness by the intangibles.



And I've never been a grammar nazi but your wording is confusing AF btw....

Yeah I don't understand the question at all.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 12:16 PM
If all stats are equal then it comes down to leadership and from what I can see Curry is a better team leader as well as Jordan so I would not consider them equal.

Lebron continuing to send Twitter shots against his teammates and other throw his teammates under the bus tactics publicly does not show good leadership in my opinion. Seems like he doesn't want to take ownership for anything going on with that squad unless they are winning.

Does demanding a trade post winning chips come off as a leader? How about punching your teammate in practice?

If something or someone doesn't fit yes you trade them and maximize value... 2 different 3 peats is good evidence that this was correct. As far as punching Kerr how did Steve react did he buy in or did he say ******* this I quit. Jordan didn't accept anything but 100% from his teammates or anyone else and held himself to the same standards. My statement wasn't about his being the friendliest person of the 3 just at this point of evauating all 3 players he was the best "leader" of them all.

Question if a Commander in the army or Marines gets in there face and yells at his squad when they are lazy, gets under there skin, gets physical with them all to prepare them for war doesn't that make him better than another Commander who just makes fun of them to the rest of the base and demoralizes his troops publicly.

Who would earn your respect more as a leader?

Tony_Starks
03-09-2016, 12:26 PM
Curry will eventually pass Lebron if this pace continues. He may very well be the leader of the next dynasty which puts him in a rare conversation.

To pass MJ? That's a tough one. He's far from the defensive liability narrative some people try to create but Jordan was an elite defender for a while. A legit one. Advantage MJ.

However being the best shooter we've ever seen is like a really huge deal, especially coupled with his handle. Advantage Steph.

If he can lead a three peat shooting lights out like he is?

An argument could be made...

Hawkeye15
03-09-2016, 12:26 PM
If something or someone doesn't fit yes you trade them and maximize value... 2 different 3 peats is good evidence that this was correct. As far as punching Kerr how did Steve react did he buy in or did he say ******* this I quit. Jordan didn't accept anything but 100% from his teammates or anyone else and held himself to the same standards. My statement wasn't about his being the friendliest person of the 3 just at this point of evauating all 3 players he was the best "leader" of them all.

Question if a Commander in the army or Marines gets in there face and yells at his squad when they are lazy, gets under there skin, gets physical with them all to prepare them for war doesn't that make him better than another Commander who just makes fun of them to the rest of the base and demoralizes his troops publicly.

Who would earn your respect more as a leader?

The guy who earns my respect is the one who leads on the floor (or battlefield in your example). I am simply pointing out people love to cherry pick for their own agenda

europagnpilgrim
03-09-2016, 12:30 PM
I want to ask a question that has a few "for arguments sakes" up in there but bare with me, as I thought about this I kind of thought it was a good question.

For arguments sake lets say...

.........these three players 3 year peaks are equal

..........these three players on-court impact is equal

...........these three players advanced statistics are equal



Do we then say that these guys during there three players are equals?

Or does being great at a particular skill worth more than another even if the overall impact of each player was equal?

Best Scorer
Best Defender
Best Passer
Most Versatile
Best Rebounder
Win most games
Win most titles
Win most MVP
Win most Finals MVP
Career Statistics

Would being the best at one of these sway you one way or the other?

Ok I know I have asked a lot of questions but here is my one question for you based on all the questions Ive asked.

Would you consider these 3 equals based on them having equal advanced stats, impact and 3 year peaks, or would one of the above skills/awards make you ignore equal impact, and if so which one is most important?

Here's my Answer:

Curry is a better pure shooter than Jordan and Lebron
Lebron and Jordan are better two way players and more media hyped and branded(nba cash cows, big ticket,ratings as a whole)

Reasons:
Titles are team accomplishments and are organizational desires
MVP of the league are the abilities of the individual player and AP media views(rather fair or not), but it highly depends on the players actual factual game on the court they display year in and out(usage/burden also)

Finals MVP is based on the best or most impactful player of that series based primarily on the winning team, see Curry nba mvp last year for latest proof

Curry can only outshoot those two so that is his only advantage, and being a PG he can pass but not on the level where it surpasses a shooting guard like Jordan or a PointFoward like Lebron who both were supreme passers at their position, regardless if Jordan was considered a ballhog early in career( he had to be for most part)

peak and advanced stats don't mean much after watching a player for 10 plus years when that player has shown individual dominance and team impact(game film/eyes),watching and overstanding trumps all, lytics included

like for instance Curry couldn't have been drafted by a 18 win team then have them in the Finals as quickly as Lebron with a team that wasn't even considered to make a deep playoff run in 07' from my view of it, Jordan did all he could but he couldn't get past the 1st round until more help came, then Lebron goes to Miami and goes to the finals annually with a better support cast, Jordan reaches the finals after the dominant teams got old and injured and dismantled and now the warriors are the new lakers out west with the clippers contending, swap of the old Cali guards in a so called weaker western conference after all the years of past dominance 1-8 seeds compared to east

Curry has been in the league for years now and he is a dominant shooter who can finish at the rim but he has never faced pressure of carrying the league/warriors since his inception of entering nba, but as the cycle goes its his time now that the face of the nba is aging and KD has not taken the torch yet and AD is still going thru his growing pains in NewOrleans

I can think of many PG who shot with range good enough to replace Curry on this current nba warriors squad, I cant think of many players who could have did what Lebron did his first stint with Cavs as far as that finals trip, and Jordan faced Celtics dynasty early a couple times so he did all he could do in a nutshell, even Bird said he was GOD disguised as Jordan

Jordan and Lebron are on a higher level outside of shooting perimeter/3pt, but on a entertaining level as a whole it went from the original Air23 to the Answer3 to the Chosen one 23 for nba business and on court showcase reasons,Jordan avg 30+ 8 8 during a season and was capable of that annually if focused, Lebron avg that for basically his entire career minus a few ppg and an assist/rebound, this is Curry first 30ppg season in like 7 seasons

in a nutshell skill-game-impact-inner drive-instinct are the most important when judging a player since the support cast would equate to titles and how the team is built to go far and what type of burden that player has to carry which could effect efficiency in a good or bad form

Jordan avg 28ppg as a rookie and Lebron avg 21 6 6 as a rookie so they were go getters off top in a lethal way that's why I throw peak out the window, and do entire body of the players work, reason its good to wait 7-10 years to compare but you can see it rookie year if they are that dude(dominant)

Jordan/Lebron impact more, two way players always do right? both Jordan and Lebron either won or challenged a few times for DPOY, curry is solid on D but his offense makes up for it, sort of like Nash and the 7 seconds or less Suns, we are watching a better team Defense version of that in Cali Bay Area

3 year peaks never trumps 10+ years of dominance, never ever in any sport,period

like Magic said if curry does this for next 5 years then he can enter that convo, peace

tredigs
03-09-2016, 12:31 PM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

He does hold his own though, and often comes up with crucial steals. Very active/smart defender imo. For his size, what he pulls off is pretty impressive.

The only top 10 (argued as high as 1, as low as 8) player at point - Magic - was really nothing to write home about on D either. He too would come up with big steals and has some cool/famous moments of guarding players his size down low, but by and large he was just sort of "there" on defense.

KnicksorBust
03-09-2016, 12:36 PM
I want to ask a question that has a few "for arguments sakes" up in there but bare with me, as I thought about this I kind of thought it was a good question.

For arguments sake lets say...

.........these three players 3 year peaks are equal

..........these three players on-court impact is equal

...........these three players advanced statistics are equal



Do we then say that these guys during there three players are equals?

Or does being great at a particular skill worth more than another even if the overall impact of each player was equal?

Best Scorer
Best Defender
Best Passer
Most Versatile
Best Rebounder
Win most games
Win most titles
Win most MVP
Win most Finals MVP
Career Statistics

Would being the best at one of these sway you one way or the other?

Ok I know I have asked a lot of questions but here is my one question for you based on all the questions Ive asked.

Would you consider these 3 equals based on them having equal advanced stats, impact and 3 year peaks, or would one of the above skills/awards make you ignore equal impact, and if so which one is most important?

Titles. If you and I are performing basically the same but my team is winning championships then you needed to adjust your game. Yes context, teammates, and other variables come into play but at the end of the day the greatest players of all-time all found a way to win titles. Some played team basketball like Russell, some carried their teams like Jordan but they all got it done and at the end of the day best rebounder, best shooter, most versatile is all nonsense. No one will call Ray Allen better than Kobe because of his True Shooting Percentage. It's not a one skill game. It takes a lot to win and people like winners. And it is incredibly hard to win in this league for a long time. That's why players like Tim Duncan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are the rare exception to eliteness.

KnicksorBust
03-09-2016, 12:39 PM
He does hold his own though, and often comes up with crucial steals. Very active/smart defender imo. For his size, what he pulls off is pretty impressive.

The only top 10 (argued as high as 1, as low as 8) player at point - Magic - was really nothing to write home about on D either. He too would come up with big steals and has some cool/famous moments of guarding players his size down low, but by and large he was just sort of "there" on defense.

Exactly. I don't understand this prerequisite that a player must have 2-way skills to be elite. What about Russell's offense? That's garbage analysis and is the same rhetoric that has people still saying LeBron is better than Curry.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 12:41 PM
If something or someone doesn't fit yes you trade them and maximize value... 2 different 3 peats is good evidence that this was correct. As far as punching Kerr how did Steve react did he buy in or did he say ******* this I quit. Jordan didn't accept anything but 100% from his teammates or anyone else and held himself to the same standards. My statement wasn't about his being the friendliest person of the 3 just at this point of evauating all 3 players he was the best "leader" of them all.

Question if a Commander in the army or Marines gets in there face and yells at his squad when they are lazy, gets under there skin, gets physical with them all to prepare them for war doesn't that make him better than another Commander who just makes fun of them to the rest of the base and demoralizes his troops publicly.

Who would earn your respect more as a leader?

The guy who earns my respect is the one who leads on the floor (or battlefield in your example). I am simply pointing out people love to cherry pick for their own agenda

So a leader can't lead off the battlefield only on it? You can't earn respect before you are on the battlefield or go to war? LMAO Give me a break Hawk especially when talking about agendas... SMH

Kinkotheclown
03-09-2016, 12:54 PM
Does demanding a trade post winning chips come off as a leader? How about punching your teammate in practice?

This is kind of funny

http://ballislife.com/jordan-punch-steve-kerr/

People seem to ignore that he is a colossal azzhole and flat out mean. I tend to believe that he was a great leader in spite of himself and only because how his play, not his persona

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 03:14 PM
If all stats are equal then it comes down to leadership and from what I can see Curry is a better team leader as well as Jordan so I would not consider them equal.

Lebron continuing to send Twitter shots against his teammates and other throw his teammates under the bus tactics publicly does not show good leadership in my opinion. Seems like he doesn't want to take ownership for anything going on with that squad unless they are winning.

It's funny cuz even Curry says Green is the leader and heart of the Warriors team. You watch the huddles and Green is the one talking, Curry is just quiet. So if you want to talk about leadership, Green is the one to look there.

aman_13
03-09-2016, 03:31 PM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

Probably the best way to describe his impact defensively.

tredigs
03-09-2016, 03:32 PM
It's funny cuz even Curry says Green is the leader and heart of the Warriors team. You watch the huddles and Green is the one talking, Curry is just quiet. So if you want to talk about leadership, Green is the one to look there.
They're different. Curry's not as quiet as you're making him out to be, but Dray's definitely the "OO-RAH!" vocal leader who will need to be reeled in on occasion, but overall serves as a constant fire + edge for the team. Curry leads by being the best player while still being extremely coachable and respectful of his teammates. Essentially, the fact that Curry does not step out of line draws a line for the team that nobody else can. He's also the "first in/last out" workout guy, and a player who doesn't club. He's the one who sets the example for the team. Both facets of leadership are extremely important imo.

KnicksorBust
03-09-2016, 03:37 PM
Curry leads like a melding of Nash/Bron. He seems to have a special celebration handshake/dance with every player on the team.

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 03:42 PM
They're different. Curry's not as quiet as you're making him out to be, but Dray's definitely the "OO-RAH!" vocal leader who will need to be reeled in on occasion, but overall serves as a constant fire + edge for the team. Curry leads by being the best player while still being extremely coachable and respectful of his teammates. Essentially, the fact that Curry does not step out of line draws a line for the team that nobody else can. He's also the "first in/last out" workout guy, and a player who doesn't club. He's the one who sets the example for the team. Both facets of leadership are extremely important imo.

That's my point. There are different ways to lead a team. Everyone on the past slammed Lebron because he wasn't vocal just lead by example (what's doing Curry now) but since his last years in Miami he was more vocal and now in Cleveland is another thing. You can lead a team in different ways, for example Haslem was the heart and soul of the HEAT when even Lebron and Wade were leaders. Now Bosh is a leader.

My point is, that he is slamming Lebron for his social media stuff or whatever it is, but he's forgetting the other aspects the in-game leadership, the off the scenes leadership, the workout leadership, etc... We can't knock one quality without knowing the entire context. They are leaders in their own way.

tredigs
03-09-2016, 03:49 PM
That's my point. There are different ways to lead a team. Everyone on the past slammed Lebron because he wasn't vocal just lead by example (what's doing Curry now) but since his last years in Miami he was more vocal and now in Cleveland is another thing. You can lead a team in different ways, for example Haslem was the heart and soul of the HEAT when even Lebron and Wade were leaders. Now Bosh is a leader.

My point is, that he is slamming Lebron for his social media stuff or whatever it is, but he's forgetting the other aspects the in-game leadership, the off the scenes leadership, the workout leadership, etc... We can't knock one quality without knowing the entire context. They are leaders in their own way.

Indeed, but there are also clear chinks in Lebron's leadership. There's nothing positive about thinly veiled call-outs of your teammates in social media. That's not a man being "leader", that's just outward pettiness that will only serve to stir **** up for the mass media. The slights on coaches (bumping them, sitting in their seats, etc), it all adds up. He has made questionable leadership decisions at times that definitely deserve some of the scrutiny they have been given.

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 03:57 PM
Indeed, but there are also clear chinks in Lebron's leadership. There's nothing positive about thinly veiled call-outs of your teammates in social media. That's not a man being "leader", that's just outward pettiness that will only serve to stir **** up for the mass media. The slights on coaches (bumping them, sitting in their seats, etc), it all adds up. He has made questionable leadership decisions at times that definitely deserve some of the scrutiny they have been given.

I'm not familiar with the last Lebron's statements or whatever, but to me that's just because is Lebron, some coaches did this and nobody made a big deal out of it. I'm sure he have a bond with all of the guys there (he should if he's serious about winning a ring) so maybe he knows what get them going or whatever.

The coach thing, the bump was nothing and is an old discussion, the sitting on the chair thing is immature.

tredigs
03-09-2016, 04:16 PM
I'm not familiar with the last Lebron's statements or whatever, but to me that's just because is Lebron, some coaches did this and nobody made a big deal out of it. I'm sure he have a bond with all of the guys there (he should if he's serious about winning a ring) so maybe he knows what get them going or whatever.

The coach thing, the bump was nothing and is an old discussion, the sitting on the chair thing is immature.

The bump thing is something that he has done to multiple coaches in multiple cities. It's very odd and not something we have ever seen from a superstar. I promise you that other players see that and there is nothing good that can come out of it. At the very least, they lose some respect for Lebron, and more likely they also lose respect for the coach. It just fosters negativity within a team. Sitting in the coaches seat and forcing the supposed head of the team to stand all quarter (Blatt's in the 4th quarter while being blown out by Golden State at home) was ridiculous. A few days later Blatt was fired and Lebron denied all knowledge of the situation...

These are not small things, dude. And the social media **** absolutely matters. You think his star teammates appreciate being called out over the internet to his tens of millions of followers? **** no they don't appreciate that. And he does not even do it directly. Simply alludes to it. You can have his back all you want, but's bad leadership man, pure and simple.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 04:25 PM
If all stats are equal then it comes down to leadership and from what I can see Curry is a better team leader as well as Jordan so I would not consider them equal.

Lebron continuing to send Twitter shots against his teammates and other throw his teammates under the bus tactics publicly does not show good leadership in my opinion. Seems like he doesn't want to take ownership for anything going on with that squad unless they are winning.

It's funny cuz even Curry says Green is the leader and heart of the Warriors team. You watch the huddles and Green is the one talking, Curry is just quiet. So if you want to talk about leadership, Green is the one to look there.

I agree with your statement but because the ops question was directed specifically at these 3 players I answered it directed at the 3 players. Though I would say Green is the heart, soul and energizer of the team and "a leader not the only leader" (just like Lebron wasn't the only leader on the heat... I thought Wade was a much more vocal leader than Bron but Bron was still a leader on that squad) at the end of the day it's Curry's team either way you slice it. I also still consider Curry the 2nd best leader and 2nd in leadership qualities out out of the 3 though unless you can convince me otherwise. Aside from the tweets i also think he's uncoachable and that trickles down to teammates where curry is very coachable and that also trickles down to teammates. Truly I am open to hearing why Lebron could be ranked ahead of Curry in leadership if you or anyone want's to state there case.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 04:39 PM
I'm not familiar with the last Lebron's statements or whatever, but to me that's just because is Lebron, some coaches did this and nobody made a big deal out of it. I'm sure he have a bond with all of the guys there (he should if he's serious about winning a ring) so maybe he knows what get them going or whatever.

The coach thing, the bump was nothing and is an old discussion, the sitting on the chair thing is immature.

The bump thing is something that he has done to multiple coaches in multiple cities. It's very odd and not something we have ever seen from a superstar. I promise you that other players see that and there is nothing good that can come out of it. At the very least, they lose some respect for Lebron, and more likely they also lose respect for the coach. It just fosters negativity within a team. Sitting in the coaches seat and forcing the supposed head of the team to stand all quarter (Blatt's in the 4th quarter while being blown out by Golden State at home) was ridiculous. A few days later Blatt was fired and Lebron denied all knowledge of the situation...

These are not small things, dude. And the social media **** absolutely matters. You think his star teammates appreciate being called out over the internet to his tens of millions of followers? **** no they don't appreciate that. And he does not even do it directly. Simply alludes to it. You can have his back all you want, but's bad leadership man, pure and simple.

This is much better than what I posted but it's my thoughts exactly.

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 07:31 PM
The bump thing is something that he has done to multiple coaches in multiple cities. It's very odd and not something we have ever seen from a superstar. I promise you that other players see that and there is nothing good that can come out of it. At the very least, they lose some respect for Lebron, and more likely they also lose respect for the coach. It just fosters negativity within a team. Sitting in the coaches seat and forcing the supposed head of the team to stand all quarter (Blatt's in the 4th quarter while being blown out by Golden State at home) was ridiculous. A few days later Blatt was fired and Lebron denied all knowledge of the situation...

These are not small things, dude. And the social media **** absolutely matters. You think his star teammates appreciate being called out over the internet to his tens of millions of followers? **** no they don't appreciate that. And he does not even do it directly. Simply alludes to it. You can have his back all you want, but's bad leadership man, pure and simple.

I haven't seen the bumps as you call them to be. I only know about one bump and it was the bump-gate with Spoelstra, that to me was nothing. I already said sitting in the coach's seat was disrespectful and immature.

The social media thing to me it's ********, that dude have a life separated from basketball, not everything he puts on social media have to be about basketball. The tweet about making errors and etc to me is nothing, it's a thing because it's Lebron tweeting the damn thing.

CHANGO
03-09-2016, 07:37 PM
I agree with your statement but because the ops question was directed specifically at these 3 players I answered it directed at the 3 players. Though I would say Green is the heart, soul and energizer of the team and "a leader not the only leader" (just like Lebron wasn't the only leader on the heat... I thought Wade was a much more vocal leader than Bron but Bron was still a leader on that squad) at the end of the day it's Curry's team either way you slice it. I also still consider Curry the 2nd best leader and 2nd in leadership qualities out out of the 3 though unless you can convince me otherwise. Aside from the tweets i also think he's uncoachable and that trickles down to teammates where curry is very coachable and that also trickles down to teammates. Truly I am open to hearing why Lebron could be ranked ahead of Curry in leadership if you or anyone want's to state there case.

I agree, Green is a leader too like Curry, we are not there everyday to see who is who, but I do agree that both of them are the clear-cut leaders of the team. Green is more vocal tho. The last years of the Big 3, Lebron was the vocal leader for sure, Wade took a back seat after the 1st year and Haslem was the heart & soul.

I just base my opinion on his teammates and coaches comments about him and those are always very high, so I don't know about uncoachable and the other thing.

I don't have a reasonable argument for the present Lebron tho, because I haven't following him in his Cavs days like when he was on the HEAT.

ghettosean
03-09-2016, 10:53 PM
I agree with your statement but because the ops question was directed specifically at these 3 players I answered it directed at the 3 players. Though I would say Green is the heart, soul and energizer of the team and "a leader not the only leader" (just like Lebron wasn't the only leader on the heat... I thought Wade was a much more vocal leader than Bron but Bron was still a leader on that squad) at the end of the day it's Curry's team either way you slice it. I also still consider Curry the 2nd best leader and 2nd in leadership qualities out out of the 3 though unless you can convince me otherwise. Aside from the tweets i also think he's uncoachable and that trickles down to teammates where curry is very coachable and that also trickles down to teammates. Truly I am open to hearing why Lebron could be ranked ahead of Curry in leadership if you or anyone want's to state there case.

I agree, Green is a leader too like Curry, we are not there everyday to see who is who, but I do agree that both of them are the clear-cut leaders of the team. Green is more vocal tho. The last years of the Big 3, Lebron was the vocal leader for sure, Wade took a back seat after the 1st year and Haslem was the heart & soul.

I just base my opinion on his teammates and coaches comments about him and those are always very high, so I don't know about uncoachable and the other thing.

I don't have a reasonable argument for the present Lebron tho, because I haven't following him in his Cavs days like when he was on the HEAT.

Fair enough on all points....

IKnowHoops
03-09-2016, 11:26 PM
Indeed, but there are also clear chinks in Lebron's leadership. There's nothing positive about thinly veiled call-outs of your teammates in social media. That's not a man being "leader", that's just outward pettiness that will only serve to stir **** up for the mass media. The slights on coaches (bumping them, sitting in their seats, etc), it all adds up. He has made questionable leadership decisions at times that definitely deserve some of the scrutiny they have been given.

Actually you are describing what Phil Jackson did to a T. He was at times way more cryptic than Lebron and he was never demonized for it. He was a Zen Master for it.

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 10:00 AM
Indeed, but there are also clear chinks in Lebron's leadership. There's nothing positive about thinly veiled call-outs of your teammates in social media. That's not a man being "leader", that's just outward pettiness that will only serve to stir **** up for the mass media. The slights on coaches (bumping them, sitting in their seats, etc), it all adds up. He has made questionable leadership decisions at times that definitely deserve some of the scrutiny they have been given.

Actually you are describing what Phil Jackson did to a T. He was at times way more cryptic than Lebron and he was never demonized for it. He was a Zen Master for it.

Pretty sure he was called the zen master because of his take on spirituality, leading group meditations with his team's preaching selflessness to win championships...etc but it might be what you said :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 12:49 PM
He does hold his own though, and often comes up with crucial steals. Very active/smart defender imo. For his size, what he pulls off is pretty impressive.

The only top 10 (argued as high as 1, as low as 8) player at point - Magic - was really nothing to write home about on D either. He too would come up with big steals and has some cool/famous moments of guarding players his size down low, but by and large he was just sort of "there" on defense.

Agreed. But I do think Curry's lack of dominance defensively will ultimately stop him from being ranked way the hell up there, but it didn't stop Magic. For the same reason. Any offense those 2 are on, is amazing.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 12:51 PM
So a leader can't lead off the battlefield only on it? You can't earn respect before you are on the battlefield or go to war? LMAO Give me a break Hawk especially when talking about agendas... SMH

But here is the thing. What a respected leader is to one guy, is not to another.

So there is no clear definition. Hence why using "intangibles" in any argument is ridiculous.

COOLbeans
03-10-2016, 01:11 PM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

No, he doens't make them sweat, but he's a great thief and a very smart team defender and a well above average rebounder for his position. Not to mention his out of this world offensive abilities. Yeah if he keeps this up over 4 years, you have to put him in the conversation for top 5 all time at the position.

COOLbeans
03-10-2016, 01:13 PM
Didn't read tredig's post where he says something similar to my comments above. Makes sense since we're watching most if not all of Steph's games since he's been in the league. Dude is not a weak defender, and neither is he quiet on either end. He leads by example and has ALOT of heart.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 01:13 PM
No, he doens't make them sweat, but he's a great thief and a very smart team defender and a well above average rebounder for his position. Not to mention his out of this world offensive abilities. Yeah if he keeps this up over 4 years, you have to put him in the conversation for top 5 all time at the position.

at his position for sure. Hell if he keeps this up, he challenges Magic as the best PG. I meant top 5 all time. It is tough to break into the MJ/Wilt/KAJ group

COOLbeans
03-10-2016, 01:17 PM
at his position for sure. Hell if he keeps this up, he challenges Magic as the best PG. I meant top 5 all time. It is tough to break into the MJ/Wilt/KAJ group

Yeah no. But top 10 all time? yes. I'd have to put him above Isaiah, and even Stockton who some put in the top 10. If he leads the Warriors to 3 more championships, I might even consider him over guys like Kobe and even Wade and Lebron

Jeffy25
03-10-2016, 03:38 PM
If something or someone doesn't fit yes you trade them and maximize value... 2 different 3 peats is good evidence that this was correct. As far as punching Kerr how did Steve react did he buy in or did he say ******* this I quit. Jordan didn't accept anything but 100% from his teammates or anyone else and held himself to the same standards. My statement wasn't about his being the friendliest person of the 3 just at this point of evauating all 3 players he was the best "leader" of them all.

Question if a Commander in the army or Marines gets in there face and yells at his squad when they are lazy, gets under there skin, gets physical with them all to prepare them for war doesn't that make him better than another Commander who just makes fun of them to the rest of the base and demoralizes his troops publicly.

Who would earn your respect more as a leader?

Honestly, it sounds like people are picking narratives to support the people they like.

These are three very different types of players who produced in very different ways.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 04:29 PM
Yeah no. But top 10 all time? yes. I'd have to put him above Isaiah, and even Stockton who some put in the top 10. If he leads the Warriors to 3 more championships, I might even consider him over guys like Kobe and even Wade and Lebron

I think he blows by Zeke, but I also don't hold him in the same regard some others do. They guy was never the best PG in the league at any given point.

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 04:30 PM
If something or someone doesn't fit yes you trade them and maximize value... 2 different 3 peats is good evidence that this was correct. As far as punching Kerr how did Steve react did he buy in or did he say ******* this I quit. Jordan didn't accept anything but 100% from his teammates or anyone else and held himself to the same standards. My statement wasn't about his being the friendliest person of the 3 just at this point of evauating all 3 players he was the best "leader" of them all.

Question if a Commander in the army or Marines gets in there face and yells at his squad when they are lazy, gets under there skin, gets physical with them all to prepare them for war doesn't that make him better than another Commander who just makes fun of them to the rest of the base and demoralizes his troops publicly.

Who would earn your respect more as a leader?

Honestly, it sounds like people are picking narratives to support the people they likesame
These are three very different types of players who produced in very different ways.

It sounds as if you didn't read the ops question fully or at all. If all stats are the same, impact on the court are the same, peaks are the same would the players be the same? Or is there something that could sway you to choose one over the other.

Leadership was a very valid response that I think anyone would agree with except for those who have blinders on for there favorite players. Try using substance and stay on track with the thread subject. I agree with you that all 3 produce in different ways but if all stats, peaks and on court impact was the same what would separate them in your mind?

mngopher35
03-10-2016, 04:54 PM
The skill set of the rest of my team would probably be the deciding factor for me. If my team needed an all around player to do most of the creating I take Lebron. If I need more of a scorer/perimeter defender I take MJ. If I needed spacing more than defense I go with Curry.

Weird question but if their impact was going to be equal as individuals it would just come down to how their skill set meshed with the team I had.

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 04:56 PM
The guy who earns my respect is the one who leads on the floor (or battlefield in your example). I am simply pointing out people love to cherry pick for their own agenda



To add to your earlier response above if leadership to you in what happens on the court or battlefield only we Lebron has bumped his last 3 coaches on the court, and completely humiliated his last one publicly with the camera's to see and on top of that had a hand in getting him fired again to me these are poor leadership characteristics which is why Lebron would still be last on my list out of the 3 mentioned by the OP.



So a leader can't lead off the battlefield only on it? You can't earn respect before you are on the battlefield or go to war? LMAO Give me a break Hawk especially when talking about agendas... SMH

But here is the thing. What a respected leader is to one guy, is not to another.

So there is no clear definition. Hence why using "intangibles" in any argument is ridiculous.

I happen to think outside of stats that leadership is the most important thing the leader or best player on a team can offer but maybe that's just me what is it that you think is most important outside of statistics?

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 05:00 PM
The skill set of the rest of my team would probably be the deciding factor for me. If my team needed an all around player to do most of the creating I take Lebron. If I need more of a scorer/perimeter defender I take MJ. If I needed spacing more than defense I go with Curry.

Weird question but if their impact was going to be equal as individuals it would just come down to how their skill set meshed with the team I had.

I might be misunderstanding the ops question but if the impact on the court is the same in all scenarios then what does the skill set matter if the impact on the court is the exact same? Same with advances stats and peak so to me everything that can be measured is the same from what I read.

Edit:

Might be more of a question for the OP....

mngopher35
03-10-2016, 06:00 PM
I might be misunderstanding the ops question but if the impact on the court is the same in all scenarios then what does the skill set matter if the impact on the court is the exact same? Same with advances stats and peak so to me everything that can be measured is the same from what I read.

Edit:

Might be more of a question for the OP....

Like I said this is just a weird topic haha. The op did mention specific skill sets and asked if they were more important though so I took it as if these guys are all going to have same stats/impact/peak individually who do you take? I don't think a single skill set determines that like he asked though it is more about fitting the skill sets in with the rest of the teams as I said. A player can have his own individual impact but not fit well with a specific team minimizing the teams overall level even if not his own.

You could totally be right though on that not being his question, he actually asks multiple it seems. If the assumption is that every one of them has the exact same impact on their teams as a whole anyways then it literally doesn't matter which one you choose haha. Just based on who you like I guess.

Jeffy25
03-10-2016, 06:03 PM
It sounds as if you didn't read the ops question fully or at all. If all stats are the same, impact on the court are the same, peaks are the same would the players be the same? Or is there something that could sway you to choose one over the other.

Leadership was a very valid response that I think anyone would agree with except for those who have blinders on for there favorite players. Try using substance and stay on track with the thread subject. I agree with you that all 3 produce in different ways but if all stats, peaks and on court impact was the same what would separate them in your mind?

But you can't possibly know, understand, or pretend to comprehend each player as leaders.

You have no way of knowing. There are a variety of different kinds of leaders, and they can lead in a variety of ways.

Leadership isn't a black and white intangible

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 06:34 PM
It sounds as if you didn't read the ops question fully or at all. If all stats are the same, impact on the court are the same, peaks are the same would the players be the same? Or is there something that could sway you to choose one over the other.

Leadership was a very valid response that I think anyone would agree with except for those who have blinders on for there favorite players. Try using substance and stay on track with the thread subject. I agree with you that all 3 produce in different ways but if all stats, peaks and on court impact was the same what would separate them in your mind?

But you can't possibly know, understand, or pretend to comprehend each player as leaders.

You have no way of knowing. There are a variety of different kinds of leaders, and they can lead in a variety of ways.

Leadership isn't a black and white intangible

Agreed on what you said I'm really just going off of what I've seen really... Lebron publicly throwing his teammates under a bus publically and undermining many of the coaches he's had and publicly humiliating the last one multiple times on camera and having a hand in getting him fired is many examples of poor leadership to me. He might be a better gym rat though or other things (though Jordan had teammates like Scottie over at his house to workout and eat on a regular basis) he might be more motivational in the locker room... Etc.


I'm really judging/ranking leadership based off of what we know and have seen of these players.


Based off of your knowledge of Lebron, Curry and Jordan do you see a legitimate reason to change my rankings in leadership qualities?

Hawkeye15
03-10-2016, 06:42 PM
I happen to think outside of stats that leadership is the most important thing the leader or best player on a team can offer but maybe that's just me what is it that you think is most important outside of statistics?

The thing is, I don't think there is a way to debate things that can't be proven. Again, what might be a good leader to one teammate, might be a bad leader to another. And each players situation is totally different regardless. Some of the greatest players ever are type A personalities, they are very tough to get along with.

mngopher35
03-10-2016, 06:59 PM
Agreed on what you said I'm really just going off of what I've seen really... Lebron publicly throwing his teammates under a bus publically and undermining many of the coaches he's had and publicly humiliating the last one multiple times on camera and having a hand in getting him fired is many examples of poor leadership to me. He might be a better gym rat though or other things (though Jordan had teammates like Scottie over at his house to workout and eat on a regular basis) he might be more motivational in the locker room... Etc.


I'm really judging/ranking leadership based off of what we know and have seen of these players.


Based off of your knowledge of Lebron, Curry and Jordan do you see a legitimate reason to change my rankings in leadership qualities?

You could also say punching a teammate in the face is worse leadership than relying mostly on media interviews (especially with how much more prevalent they are) and overblown minor instances. Having Phil Jackson also could help take that responsibility away covering up or preventing more similar instances. It will all be subjective though. I think it is fair to have Lebron below the others though just like any order really is.

I had a friend who regularly called the team out when it was under performing (fans/spectators also noticed this) and the group of guys hated leading to mediocre results with not a real feeling of being a team. Literally the next season we over performed with the exact same guy being the main leader because a few guys graduated (it was their attitude toward said player that was the real issue) and everyone else responded well once the whining about it stopped. We have no insight into how these teams respond or what they actually need from a leader so it is all speculation on our parts (when my parents asked about him I explained he acted that way because he truly cared and wanted us to be the best). Not nba or anything but still an example of leadership being super subjective and outsiders will never truly understand.

Teufelshunde4
03-10-2016, 07:25 PM
Pretty sure he was called the zen master because of his take on spirituality, leading group meditations with his team's preaching selflessness to win championships...etc but it might be what you said :rolleyes:

Always cracked me up to watch Phil sitting on bench with his arms folded and smirk on his face when a team was ripping off a big run on one of his teams. Phil would sit there and force his guys to figure out how to stop the run and refocus.. Then when Phil's teams always seemed so calm in crunch time and finished teams so ruthlessly. To many coaches act as saviors and stunt the growth of their own teams.

Teufelshunde4
03-10-2016, 07:30 PM
This is kind of funny

http://ballislife.com/jordan-punch-steve-kerr/

People seem to ignore that he is a colossal azzhole and flat out mean. I tend to believe that he was a great leader in spite of himself and only because how his play, not his persona

Kinda funny how lately people seem to be acting like MJ bushwhacked Kerr. Heated scrimmage with Phil stepping out for a conference call. Both Mj and Kerr had been exchanging elbows and got tangled up... MJ punched as well as Kerr punched. Players claim there are 3 or 4 fights every season during practice..
Yet you act like MJ was bullying Kerr.. THats crap and you know it....

Kerr wasnt an equipment manager out at a restaurant ya know....

IKnowHoops
03-10-2016, 07:41 PM
Pretty sure he was called the zen master because of his take on spirituality, leading group meditations with his team's preaching selflessness to win championships...etc but it might be what you said :rolleyes:

And his ability to motivate his players through the media by saying cryptic one liners.:rolleyes:

I never heard him vilified for throwing Kobe under the bus multiple times. He would get praised for it if anything. Meanwhile Lebron does it to guys who def need to step up and its a huge double standard.:rolleyes:

Kinkotheclown
03-10-2016, 07:43 PM
Kinda funny how lately people seem to be acting like MJ bushwhacked Kerr. Heated scrimmage with Phil stepping out for a conference call. Both Mj and Kerr had been exchanging elbows and got tangled up... MJ punched as well as Kerr punched. Players claim there are 3 or 4 fights every season during practice..
Yet you act like MJ was bullying Kerr.. THats crap and you know it....

Kerr wasnt an equipment manager out at a restaurant ya know....

What are you talking about? Or at least making a weak attempt at talking?
Where did i say he was bullying Kerr? Did you watch the video. It's kind of funny, as I said because it's an animated version of the scenario from Jordan's perspective. It shows the situation for what it was. Which is exactly what you said, a heated scenario at practice. It happens.

I said Jordan is a notorious azzhole. He has a long history of being a complete douche to people. Ya know...

Ya know?

ghettosean
03-10-2016, 10:00 PM
Pretty sure he was called the zen master because of his take on spirituality, leading group meditations with his team's preaching selflessness to win championships...etc but it might be what you said :rolleyes:

And his ability to motivate his players through the media by saying cryptic one liners.:rolleyes:

I never heard him vilified for throwing Kobe under the bus multiple times. He would get praised for it if anything. Meanwhile Lebron does it to guys who def need to step up and its a huge double standard.:rolleyes:

Coaches call out players once in a while even the entire team on lack of effort it's not just Phil on top of that he's anything but cryptic Phil is brutally honest more often than not but not very cryptic when talking about his team or players but to continuously blast your team for days and weeks on end is not his style at all if you think otherwise I wouldn't mind some evidence to support that but I've never heard heard him blast players or the team more than the average coach.

Lebron on the other hand has been blasting his team on social media very frequently lately and also at times earlier in the season this is nothing the average player or franchise player would do. To add undermining and humiliating your coach publicly or deliberately is also not the normal either for the average player, leader or franchise player as well and since Love has called out Lebron directly and publicly and Kyrie is sending cryptic tweets back seems like Lebrons genius as you call it is not being well received or working and to me is showing poor leadership as per some of the responses from his CoStar's and the rest of what I wrote above.

Gander13SM
03-12-2016, 11:15 AM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

FWIW, last I checked Steph Curry has the best defensive field goal percentage for any guard in the league. He's 4th in DRtg for all point guards and top 5 in steals.

KnicksorBust
03-12-2016, 11:18 AM
While Curry's offensive advanced numbers are on par or better than anyone ever, I just will for sure have an issue putting him in the top 5 ever (assuming he does what he is doing another 4-5 years), because I don't think he is even remotely close to the all time perimeter players that are in the top 10 on the defensive side. While he isn't a poor defender, he doesn't make the other team sweat when he is patrolling defensively.

FWIW, last I checked Steph Curry has the best defensive field goal percentage for any guard in the league. He's 4th in DRtg for all point guards and top 5 in steals.

People will say it is because they hide Curry on D but when the Cavs hide Lebron on D its okay bc 5 years ago Lebron was an elite defender and he can live off that almost as long as Kobe. :)

CHANGO
03-12-2016, 02:30 PM
FWIW, last I checked Steph Curry has the best defensive field goal percentage for any guard in the league. He's 4th in DRtg for all point guards and top 5 in steals.

That will happen when he's playing defense around guys like Klay, Dray, Bogut, Dre, etc... He should lead that because the W's are one of the best defensive teams.

ghettosean
03-12-2016, 10:25 PM
I happen to think outside of stats that leadership is the most important thing the leader or best player on a team can offer but maybe that's just me what is it that you think is most important outside of statistics?

The thing is, I don't think there is a way to debate things that can't be proven. Again, what might be a good leader to one teammate, might be a bad leader to another. And each players situation is totally different regardless. Some of the greatest players ever are type A personalities, they are very tough to get along with.

That's OK if you think you can't debate something outside of statistics though people will do that anyway. You still didn't answer my question though...

What is it that you think is most important outside of statistics that a player can offer?

You might not think we can debate this but I'm sure you can have your own opinion.

Monta is beast
03-13-2016, 01:10 AM
Na currys defense is really underrated. Hes one of the best defensive point guards in the league. He has active hands, plays angles well etc. He gets exposed against the athletic guards tho