PDA

View Full Version : How Long Was Lebron The Best Player In The League>?



RocketLoc80
03-07-2016, 10:58 AM
Its a consensus now that Curry is the best in the league and ended Lebron `s run this year but it`s also consensus to some that Lebron was only the best player in the league for only 2 years (2012-2014). So how long was Lebron actually the best but not just some overblown opinion or some made up crap for obvious people who won`t give him credit regardless.

2-ONE-5
03-07-2016, 11:09 AM
who cares?

More-Than-Most
03-07-2016, 11:10 AM
2007 or 2008 until last season... Curry was the MVP but bron was still the better player... Curry though is the best player in the league now but its easily 5 plus years.

ManningToTyree
03-07-2016, 12:32 PM
2007-2015

Ball_Out
03-07-2016, 12:42 PM
4 years. His Heat years and some of last year

Hawkeye15
03-07-2016, 12:52 PM
2008-2013

KnicksorBust
03-07-2016, 12:57 PM
+5 years. People try and dog him and give Kobe more years but since 90 it has been MJ-Hakeem-MJ-Shaq-Duncan-Kobe-LeBron-Curry

DanG
03-07-2016, 01:38 PM
2010-2014

tredigs
03-07-2016, 01:46 PM
2008-2013
Bingo. A solid 6 year run, I'd start at the 07-08 season and go until 2012/13, so almost 7 years. But in KD's MVP season I thought he was legitimately the best in the game day in/out, and same with Curry over him last season.

Hawkeye15
03-07-2016, 01:58 PM
Bingo. A solid 6 year run, I'd start at the 07-08 season and go until 2012/13, so almost 7 years. But in KD's MVP season I thought he was legitimately the best in the game day in/out, and same with Curry over him last season.

13-14' is also when a noticeable drop on defense came for Bron. But he clearly had one of the top 2-3 statistical runs of any player ever over that time period.

FraziersKnicks
03-07-2016, 02:08 PM
2008-13 he was the consensus best player in the league.

2007-08 it was LeBron or CP3 and 2013-14 him and KD were very close. Bron vastly outplayed KD in the 2014 playoffs though so I probably give the edge for that year.

So you could argue 2007-14 but 2008-13 cannot be argued. No one was really close. Probably should've won every single one of those MVP's (maybe Dwight deserved 2010-11).

Burkey3472
03-07-2016, 03:00 PM
Definitely from the 07-08 season to the 12-13 season. I would also throw in his 13-14 season but I would understand if people thought KD was the best player on the planet that season.

t_money25
03-07-2016, 03:07 PM
I'd say at least 5 years. While I think Curry is a great player I still don't think he's the best. Scorers get wayyyyy too much glory these days.

FraziersKnicks
03-07-2016, 03:15 PM
I am kinda surprised at how quick people are to crown Curry the best player in the world when he is still league average at best defensively.

I would say both LeBron and Kawhi are better two way players than Curry. Curry's impact offensively is so huge it does hide his defensive shortcomings. And the fact he plays on an elite defensive team to hide his weakness on that side of the ball.

mngopher35
03-07-2016, 03:22 PM
I think 09-13 is the pretty obvious stretch for him. 14 and 15 he would still have been the player I chose to lead my team come post season and 08 was a toss up as well overall. Curry was very close last year though and played better in rs for sure so I get an argument against Lebron there.

So arguably 08-15 and 09-13 is pretty easy call for him IMO.

KnicksorBust
03-07-2016, 03:23 PM
People need to get over LeBron's defense. Who is he locking up these days? Seriously.

FraziersKnicks
03-07-2016, 03:36 PM
People need to get over LeBron's defense. Who is he locking up these days? Seriously.

He's actually had a very good defensive season this year, which breaks from the downwards trend of the past few years.

He's 3rd in defensive win shares (behind Kawhi and Paul George) and DBPM (behind Kawhi and Danny Green) amongst wings and guards. Metrics say he should probably be on an all-defensive team this season. He's also 8th in DRtg amongst wings and guards.

He's not lock down defender anymore but he's actually had a very good defensive season. Easily his best since he came 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012-13.

tredigs
03-07-2016, 03:42 PM
He's actually had a very good defensive season this year, which breaks from the downwards trend of the past few years.

He's 3rd in defensive win shares (behind Kawhi and Paul George) and DBPM (behind Kawhi and Danny Green) amongst wings and guards. Metrics say he should probably be on an all-defensive team this season. He's also 8th in DRtg amongst wings and guards.

He's not lock down defender anymore but he's actually had a very good defensive season. Easily his best since he came 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012-13.
Ehh, I'd argue the perceived "improvement" in his defense this year (from a stats standpoint) is much more so due to the fact that they've given up on him matching up with the other teams best players for the most part. Even in the Finals when he was coming off of ~10 days of rest and as much motivation as I've ever seen from him to will his team to a title, what did Lebron do on D? Absolutely nothing. He was hidden or used as a roaming help defender when they doubled Curry to leave Iguodala open (didn't work).

FraziersKnicks
03-07-2016, 03:56 PM
Ehh, I'd argue the perceived "improvement" in his defense this year (from a stats standpoint) is much more so due to the fact that they've given up on him matching up with the other teams best players for the most part. Even in the Finals when he was coming off of ~10 days of rest and as much motivation as I've ever seen from him to will his team to a title, what did Lebron do on D? Absolutely nothing. He was hidden or used as a roaming help defender when they doubled Curry to leave Iguodala open (didn't work).

Why are you bringing up last season when I'm talking about this season? No single player is gonna have a huge defensive impact against a team that has the ball movement of the Warriors or Spurs.

When he goes up against the KD's and the Melo's of the league he spends the majority of the time guarding them because the Cavs don't have any alternatives. Shump and JR don't have the size. He gains a lot of his value with his great team defense and help D anyway.

He's had somewhat of a rebirth defensively this year and the numbers agree with me, the fact that you don't doesn't really bother me.

tredigs
03-07-2016, 05:27 PM
Why are you bringing up last season when I'm talking about this season? No single player is gonna have a huge defensive impact against a team that has the ball movement of the Warriors or Spurs.

When he goes up against the KD's and the Melo's of the league he spends the majority of the time guarding them because the Cavs don't have any alternatives. Shump and JR don't have the size. He gains a lot of his value with his great team defense and help D anyway.

He's had somewhat of a rebirth defensively this year and the numbers agree with me, the fact that you don't doesn't really bother me.

I am speaking about this season. Hence me talking about how hidden he is defensively throughout the season (while bringing up that it is not a new phenomena). None of the numbers you're showing me relate the fact that he is very often guarding a player who will have little to no offensive impact regardless of their mark. For that you have to objectively watch some Cavs games and see what's going on there.

CHANGO
03-07-2016, 06:46 PM
Since 2009 for me, to his final year in Miami. I don't think KD was better than Lebron. He had the better season but that doesn't mean he was the best player. Lebron killed on the playoffs.

A perfect example of that is last year with Harden, did anyone here thought "oh James Harden deserves the MVP, he is better than Lebron"? I don't think so.

CHANGO
03-07-2016, 06:47 PM
People need to get over LeBron's defense. Who is he locking up these days? Seriously.

Well, Cavs are a better defensive team when he is on the court, and obviously a better offensive team too.

Hawkeye15
03-07-2016, 07:02 PM
Well, Cavs are a better defensive team when he is on the court, and obviously a better offensive team too.

they are better defensively with Love on the floor too. Is he a good defender?

Sportsguy9695
03-07-2016, 07:13 PM
up until last year james dominated the league hands down. but now curry is dominating it no question

CHANGO
03-07-2016, 07:19 PM
they are better defensively with Love on the floor too. Is he a good defender?

That's a contradictory statement. Love is playing the majority of minutes with Lebron AND Irving. If people consider Irving and Love as bad defenders, then the others are good defenders. If we do the math, 2 bad defenders on the same starting lineup playing with 3 "good defenders"? (Meh with JR) but if the stats show with Lebron on the floor they are a better defensive team it says something.

That doesn't mean he is a lock defender ala Kawhi, but this season he is a solid defender and his team is benefiting from that.

EDIT: Actually stats show that Cavs are better defensively with Delly on the floor (obviously), 2nd is Shumpert (not a surprise) and 3rd is Lebron. Way down is Love and then at the bottom is Irving.

Kush McDaniels
03-07-2016, 09:36 PM
I would love to see a breakdown of the best player in the league from 1980 to now. LeBron's run from 08-15ish could be one of the longest this league has seen in the modern era.

More-Than-Most
03-07-2016, 10:06 PM
I am kinda surprised at how quick people are to crown Curry the best player in the world when he is still league average at best defensively.

I would say both LeBron and Kawhi are better two way players than Curry. Curry's impact offensively is so huge it does hide his defensive shortcomings. And the fact he plays on an elite defensive team to hide his weakness on that side of the ball.

I am a huge bron homer and there is no argument for bron this season... The argument would be who is 2nd and I think Westy is closest to curry... Lebron/Durant would be next in my opinion.

More-Than-Most
03-07-2016, 10:07 PM
People need to get over LeBron's defense. Who is he locking up these days? Seriously.

He has actually been a very good defensive player this year compared to the last few years... His defense is what makes him a basic god for years because he literally deserved the MVP and Defensive player of the year award in his prime.

CHANGO
03-07-2016, 11:40 PM
I am a huge bron homer and there is no argument for bron this season... The argument would be who is 2nd and I think Westy is closest to curry... Lebron/Durant would be next in my opinion.

I think after Curry he should be the 2nd most deserving player to get the MVP. He is still playing great and it's a shame that a lot of people have wrote him off of that conversation(Top 5 MVP).

LA_Raiders
03-08-2016, 12:04 AM
4 years seems alright. I give 1 year to KD and 2 so far for curry

tredigs
03-08-2016, 12:15 AM
I think after Curry he should be the 2nd most deserving player to get the MVP. He is still playing great and it's a shame that a lot of people have wrote him off of that conversation(Top 5 MVP).

Who wrote him off as top 5 for MVP? He was the preseason favorite to win MVP last year, and the preseason favorite to win MVP this year. I'm sure he's still top 5 on virtually everyone's list.

ewing
03-08-2016, 12:44 AM
Well, Cavs are a better defensive team when he is on the court, and obviously a better offensive team too.

they get better shots, have better floor balance, and are set on d more frequently. this isn't baseball. the two sides of the ball are connected. i am not saying LeBron is bad defender but if you are going to talk about the impact he has on team defensive you can not ignore the impact he has on the teams offense. they are intertwined. i think last year final should have given a clear view of that fact. I think KnicksorBust is right in that he not an elite one on one defender anymore.

CHANGO
03-08-2016, 01:16 AM
Who wrote him off as top 5 for MVP? He was the preseason favorite to win MVP last year, and the preseason favorite to win MVP this year. I'm sure he's still top 5 on virtually everyone's list.

I've seen lot of analysts mention Leonard, George, Westy and Durant before they mention Lebron, it's as if everyone is not watching him play and watching the value he have to that Cavs team.

tredigs
03-08-2016, 01:16 AM
Curry makes his teammates do silly things like this: https://vine.co/v/iX9FDmTFQ0I

CHANGO
03-08-2016, 01:16 AM
they get better shots, have better floor balance, and are set on d more frequently. this isn't baseball. the two sides of the ball are connected. i am not saying LeBron is bad defender but if you are going to talk about the impact he has on team defensive you can not ignore the impact he has on the teams offense. they are intertwined. i think last year final should have given a clear view of that fact. I think KnicksorBust is right in that he not an elite one on one defender anymore.

I don't understand what are you trying to say. You are saying that without Lebron they are better offensively?

ewing
03-08-2016, 01:30 AM
I don't understand what are you trying to say. You are saying that without Lebron they are better offensively?

the opposite. i am saying that the LeBron allows them to play offense in a way that helps them to maintain floor balance, limit fastbreaks, not have to cross match early in possessions. LeBron's offensive impact makes them a better defensive team. Its like having J kidd play PG. He was a great defender but he was also the best floor general ever. you're not caught out of position transitioning to D if J Kidd is running your offensive.

IKnowHoops
03-08-2016, 02:39 AM
2007-2015

ditto

FraziersKnicks
03-08-2016, 02:56 AM
Curry makes his teammates do silly things like this: https://vine.co/v/iX9FDmTFQ0I

I don't really understand what's so amazing about this and the relevance it has to this thread? :confused:

IKnowHoops
03-08-2016, 03:31 AM
Curry makes his teammates do silly things like this: https://vine.co/v/iX9FDmTFQ0I

This is pretty funny.

Has no real relevance.

But I think he's trying to say something like....Lebron's impact makes his teammates better, and Curry's impact in this case makes players cheer for him 3 seconds before the ball goes through the hoop cause they know he's so money...or something along those lines.

Or really he just wanted any excuse to play this highlight since it was pretty funny as well as pretty flattering for Curry.

KnicksorBust
03-08-2016, 08:53 AM
I don't really understand what's so amazing about this and the relevance it has to this thread? :confused:

Did you not see Bogut? He tipped the ball out to Curry and immediately started running back on defense with his arm up. I even got a kick out of the fact that he switched arms mid-jog so he didn't inadvertently close out on Curry. :laugh:

MTar786
03-08-2016, 09:53 AM
i got lebron from 09-14 (14 could go to durant)

kobe from 05-09 (09 could go to lebron)

duncan from 03-05 (03 could go to shaq or kobe)

shaq from 99-03

Tony_Starks
03-08-2016, 10:27 AM
i got lebron from 09-14 (14 could go to durant)

kobe from 05-09 (09 could go to lebron)

duncan from 03-05 (03 could go to shaq or kobe)

shaq from 99-03


This sounds reasonable

ManRam
03-08-2016, 10:48 AM
His run is up, but any vote other than 5+ is just categorically wrong.

More-Than-Most
03-08-2016, 10:49 AM
i got lebron from 09-14 (14 could go to durant)

kobe from 05-09 (09 could go to lebron)

duncan from 03-05 (03 could go to shaq or kobe)

shaq from 99-03

Serious question... 06-07 I have no issues people taking Kobe even though I think Bron was a nudge better... That being said what argument does Kobe have any year after that over James?

in 07-08 James avg 30/8/7 on 48 percent shooting and was godly defensively... I am at a loss for words.

Tony_Starks
03-08-2016, 11:19 AM
Serious question... 06-07 I have no issues people taking Kobe even though I think Bron was a nudge better... That being said what argument does Kobe have any year after that over James?

in 07-08 James avg 30/8/7 on 48 percent shooting and was godly defensively... I am at a loss for words.


You had me until "godly defensively."

He is absolutely 100% not guilty of being a godly defender at that time.

YAALREADYKNO
03-08-2016, 11:41 AM
2009-15 for me

FraziersKnicks
03-08-2016, 01:40 PM
2008-09 LeBron was easily the best player in the league. That season is arguably his best alongside 2012-13.

2007-08 is between CP3 and Bron even though Kobe won MVP. Both of them were quite easily better than Kobe that year.

I think the only year Kobe has an argument for is his 35 PPG season, but he still didn't really lead his team to much and was just an average efficiency, high volume scorer (very impressive considering the volume though).

I actually think Dirk has a great argument over Kobe in those years. I would break it down something like this.

2005-06: Dirk/Kobe
2006-07: Dirk
2007-08: CP3/LeBron
2008-09: LeBron
2009-10: LeBron
2010-11: LeBron
2011-12: LeBron
2012-13: LeBron
2013-14: LeBron/KD
2014-15: Curry
2015-16: Curry

So at an ABSOLUTE minimum LeBron was the clear best player in the league for 5 seasons, and you could make a solid argument for 7 seasons.

Bostonjorge
03-08-2016, 04:47 PM
2011 - 2015 James has had super stacked teams or more then enough to be the top team in the league for "the best player". Yet he only has 1 top seed in the east let alone the league.

IKnowHoops
03-09-2016, 02:24 AM
2011 - 2015 James has had super stacked teams or more then enough to be the top team in the league for "the best player". Yet he only has 1 top seed in the east let alone the league.

Goes to show he coasts. 1 top seed, but after this year 7 finals appearances and 6 straight. Don't put so much weight on the regular season when a guy has this much playoff dominance to back it up.

What this really illustrates is that unless Lebron dominates, the Cavs loose. In the regular season, you can't dominate every single night. In the playoffs you dominate 4/7 nights you advance. Lebron can do that rather easily. When your as good as Lebron was and still is, when you can impact the game in every possible way, and there fore pick up the slack in any area needed at any point of any game...the regular season don't mean spit

tredigs
03-09-2016, 02:28 AM
Goes to show he coasts. 1 top seed, but after this year 7 finals appearances and 6 straight. Don't put so much weight on the regular season when a guy has this much playoff dominance to back it up.

What this really illustrates is that unless Lebron dominates, the Cavs loose. In the regular season, you can't dominate every single night. In the playoffs you dominate 4/7 nights you advance. Lebron can do that rather easily. When your as good as Lebron was and still is, when you can impact the game in every possible way, and there fore pick up the slack in any area needed at any point of any game...the regular season don't mean spit

Reg season means a lot in the West. He wouldn't be able to coast as he has if he played day in/out in the West, that's a fact.

More-Than-Most
03-09-2016, 05:02 AM
Reg season means a lot in the West. He wouldn't be able to coast as he has if he played day in/out in the West, that's a fact.

this argument again.. sure he would if he was on some of the top ultra talented teams out west.. Lebron on the spurs/clippers/thunder/warriors=Coasting even out west because even out west his team would be so far above everyone else with all that top heavy west talent.

tredigs
03-09-2016, 07:39 AM
this argument again.. sure he would if he was on some of the top ultra talented teams out west.. Lebron on the spurs/clippers/thunder/warriors=Coasting even out west because even out west his team would be so far above everyone else with all that top heavy west talent.
He has been on ultra talented teams for quite a while now.

Hawkeye15
03-09-2016, 12:07 PM
Reg season means a lot in the West. He wouldn't be able to coast as he has if he played day in/out in the West, that's a fact.

but, have you factored in he has more help if he is out west, ie, where the better players are (not elite level per say, but just better talent)? I think a reasonable argument can be made, if he avoided say the Wolves, or Kings for instance, he might have had to carry a lesser work load and still dominate....

Hawkeye15
03-09-2016, 12:08 PM
He has been on ultra talented teams for quite a while now.

and he has gone to how many finals? That kind of contradicts your point

tredigs
03-09-2016, 12:44 PM
and he has gone to how many finals? That kind of contradicts your point

How does it contradict my point? I'm not arguing that the guy is not doing his job (until he faces the West in the Finals), I'm saying that he is afforded to coast in the reg season (and frankly often in the playoffs as well) to a degree that you just don't see in the other conference. Specifically seeing as he teamed up with the Easts other best player and the Easts best PF in his prime. Once they became largely useless to him, he jumped ship with another one of the leagues top PF's and the best rising PG in the East in his old home. Lol c'mon, we're not dense enough to think these moves are by accident Hawk. He created a situation where he could largely coast in the regular season, focus on the Finals, and not have to worry too much about his road to get there (seeding, etc).

What I'm saying is, if anybody brings up the "6 straight Finals argument", it had better be included with the context of how that happens. It is a WHOLE different ball game if he's day in/day out + going through the West playoffs; One where there is obviously no situation where he is going to 6 straight Finals.

Tony_Starks
03-09-2016, 12:48 PM
The KD disrespect is real...

andy2518
03-13-2016, 02:30 PM
Are we talking arguably the best or the clear cut best because that is two different things. Arguably the best from 2009-2015. Undeniably and the clear cut best only in 2012 and 2013 IMO.

Chronz
03-13-2016, 02:50 PM
The KD disrespect is real...

Guessing the playoffs dont matter for you? Like at all....

andy2518
03-13-2016, 02:52 PM
2008-09 LeBron was easily the best player in the league. That season is arguably his best alongside 2012-13.

2007-08 is between CP3 and Bron even though Kobe won MVP. Both of them were quite easily better than Kobe that year.

I think the only year Kobe has an argument for is his 35 PPG season, but he still didn't really lead his team to much and was just an average efficiency, high volume scorer (very impressive considering the volume though).

I actually think Dirk has a great argument over Kobe in those years. I would break it down something like this.

2005-06: Dirk/Kobe
2006-07: Dirk
2007-08: CP3/LeBron
2008-09: LeBron
2009-10: LeBron
2010-11: LeBron
2011-12: LeBron
2012-13: LeBron
2013-14: LeBron/KD
2014-15: Curry
2015-16: Curry

So at an ABSOLUTE minimum LeBron was the clear best player in the league for 5 seasons, and you could make a solid argument for 7 seasons.

Jeez. I don't even know why you went back to 2005-06 & 2006-07 to engage in a Kobe Dirk comparison when that is completely off topic. Well, I actually have an idea as to why as I have seen enough of your posts to know what I'm dealing with. I can't give 2011 to Lebron after that horrible finals showing and 09 and 10 are just to pre-mature as it was widely debatable as to who was better between him and Kobe. However, in 2012 and 2013 he was way dominant over his peers the way Curry is right now and the way Kobe was in 2006 and 2007. Lebron and Curry just had the luxury of being on great teams during their absolute peak years which is awesome for them and could be even more awesome for Curry if he can keep this up another few years or so. Funny also that you have Lebron arguably the best in 2008. I honestly think Lebron was better in 2006 and 2007 than he was in 2008.

mngopher35
03-13-2016, 02:55 PM
Are we talking arguably the best or the clear cut best because that is two different things. Arguably the best from 2009-2015. Undeniably and the clear cut best only in 2012 and 2013 IMO.

Out of curiosity before Lebron when was the last couple times a player was undeniably the clear cut best to you?
That might help clear things up on what your definition is (seems like you are saying there is basically 0 argument for anyone else which is pretty rare IMO). I think most people are talking when said player was considered the best by the large majority and their own opinions matching. There is an argument for him over about a 7 year stretch and people are voting how many they agree he was the best basically over that span.

To me the two years you mention is like when Shaq was undeniably the best in early 2000's or Jordan before him. That is an extremely rare group so I would agree that he only had 2 years of that kind of domination. Arguably I think you can extend it to 08-15 though as there were a few at that time with different arguments and he was one of them (CP3, Kobe, Lebron).

andy2518
03-13-2016, 02:56 PM
Guessing the playoffs dont matter for you? Like at all....

That's funny because for years I've seen so many overrate Lebron due to regular season success.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 03:11 PM
Out of curiosity before Lebron when was the last couple times a player was undeniably the clear cut best to you?
That might help clear things up on what your definition is (seems like you are saying there is basically 0 argument for anyone else which is pretty rare IMO). I think most people are talking when said player was considered the best by the large majority and their own opinions matching. There is an argument for him over about a 7 year stretch and people are voting how many they agree he was the best basically over that span.

To me the two years you mention is like when Shaq was undeniably the best in early 2000's or Jordan before him. That is an extremely rare group so I would agree that he only had 2 years of that kind of domination. Arguably I think you can extend it to 08-15 though as there were a few at that time with different arguments and he was one of them (CP3, Kobe, Lebron).

I don't remember that many people claiming Lebron the best back in 2008. Of course there were the hard-core fanatics, but who can really take them all that seriously. Unless you mean 2008-2009 because then I agree that is when the Kobe-Lebron debate truly started. I honestly think Lebron was better in 2006 and 2007 than he was in 2008. Meaning of course 2007-2008. I remember people more arguing about CP3 and Kobe for 2008. Lebron wasn't really in the limelight that year from what I can remember. The main reason being that his team did worse than it did the previous year and his defense didn't really get good until 2008-2009. Then in 2009 and 2010 it was the beginning of the infamous Kobe-Lebron debate and rightfully so.

I would say that Kobe in 2006 and 2007 was pretty damn dominant from an individual standpoint. Only difference between him and Shaq, Lebron, Curry is that his team was utter trash during that stretch while Shaq, Lebron, and Curry all had phenomenal teams during their absolute peak years. We honestly could even extend Lebron's absolute peak to 2014 as well, he just had an absolute beast in Durant to contend with that year, so that made it debatable, but I would still give the edge to Lebron if you really broke it down. I guess the level of competition has a lot to do with you level of dominance as well. Shaq didn't have anyone who was even close competition wise during 2000-2002 and he was on a great team and had a great coach. Everything worked out great as a result. Usually 27 to 30 is when a player is at their absolute peak. Oh and of course Jordan's dominance from 88-93 was like nothing I have ever seen, but it's unfair to use that as a barometer as no one would ever match up to that level of dominance except for maybe Shaq.

Chronz
03-13-2016, 03:19 PM
That's funny because for years I've seen so many overrate Lebron due to regular season success.

Thats funny because I dont see a single Bron year that played out the way that single season did with Durant.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 03:22 PM
Thats funny because I dont see a single Bron year that played out the way that single season did with Durant.

2010, 2011, and 2013 come to mind if we are talking about legendary regular season's followed by playoff collapses.

mngopher35
03-13-2016, 03:51 PM
I don't remember that many people claiming Lebron the best back in 2008. Of course there were the hard-core fanatics, but who can really take them all that seriously. Unless you mean 2008-2009 because then I agree that is when the Kobe-Lebron debate truly started. I honestly think Lebron was better in 2006 and 2007 than he was in 2008. Meaning of course 2007-2008. I remember people more arguing about CP3 and Kobe for 2008. Lebron wasn't really in the limelight that year from what I can remember. The main reason being that his team did worse than it did the previous year and his defense didn't really get good until 2008-2009. Then in 2009 and 2010 it was the beginning of the infamous Kobe-Lebron debate and rightfully so.

CP3 and Kobe were debated for the MVP but there were plenty at the time who thought Lebron was the best (Clevelands record wasn't good enough for that convo). 09 is when I think he became the most popular choice for best player in the league, not when that debate started though. Sure there was some talk of Kobe still in 2010 but that was largely due to past reputation and the laker fan base (or as you call it hardcore fanatics). There are people on here now still talking about Lebron being better than Curry but most know that time has passed for example. It usually happens that as players age a chunk of people still consider them the best longer than they should. I disagree about Lebron being better individually in 07, that's just when they had a better record/playoff run (didn't run into Celtics though).

Statistically speaking Lebron was better than Kobe in the 08 regular season where as Kobe was probably a little better in the playoffs (granted with more support). Somewhat similar to last year with Lebron and Curry where you could choose either depending on your criteria. The following year Lebron had one of the best statistical seasons ever in both rs and playoffs so there was an obvious argument by 09 based on his impact and Kobe was in decline. You can disagree but I am just pointing out how people are likely voting on this.


I would say that Kobe in 2006 and 2007 was pretty damn dominant from an individual standpoint. Only difference between him and Shaq, Lebron, Curry is that his team was utter trash during that stretch while Shaq, Lebron, and Curry all had phenomenal teams during their absolute peak years. We honestly could even extend Lebron's absolute peak to 2014 as well, he just had an absolute beast in Durant to contend with that year, so that made it debatable, but I would still give the edge to Lebron if you really broke it down. I guess the level of competition has a lot to do with you level of dominance as well. Shaq didn't have anyone who was even close competition wise during 2000-2002 and he was on a great team and had a great coach. Everything worked out great as a result. Usually 27 to 30 is when a player is at their absolute peak. Oh and of course Jordan's dominance from 88-93 was like nothing I have ever seen, but it's unfair to use that as a barometer as no one would ever match up to that level of dominance except for maybe Shaq.

For someone bringing up playoffs you are going to use 06 as a clear cut domination of the league? I know his teams were bad but Dirk/Duncan were still dominant at that time and had much better playoffs individually (where Kobe had a poor showing individually in phx series not just as a team 06 at least). Kobe did not separate himself on an individual level those years in the same way as Lebron/Shaq/Jordan etc. He definitely has an argument and I think he likely was the best player one or even both years if you want to say that but it definitely wasn't clear cut and reflected in his personal impact (again not only team difference). I think if you did a poll of best player either of those years and a poll of best player in 09 it would be pretty similar results for how many take Kobe in 06 or 07 and Lebron in 09 with them likely winning but not at 95% each season. Very very few people would choose anyone outside of Shaq/Lebron/Jordan in their respective dominant years.

I agree with your last comments and that is my point. Lebron had major separation those two years just like the guys you mentioned before him. That isn't the case with Kobe and it isn't just about his teams performance. I think it is too far to say Kobe was never the best player in the nba but it isn't to say that he was never clear cut best like the runs for any of those 3.

Chronz
03-13-2016, 04:11 PM
2010, 2011, and 2013 come to mind if we are talking about legendary regular season's followed by playoff collapses.

We're talking about selecting the best individual player for a season (the thread asks us if its Bron or not).

I dont see how any of those seasons relate here nor do I agree with your subjective break downs. Lets stick to the topic here, whats your best player list look like, heres hoping its not merely a list of the best player on a championship team.

mngopher35
03-13-2016, 04:19 PM
2010, 2011, and 2013 come to mind if we are talking about legendary regular season's followed by playoff collapses.

It is why 2011 is always brought up as the main black mark on Lebrons resume, that Dallas series. For reference though his 2010 and 2013 (probably mean 14) post season were both clearly better than Kobe in 06 and probably 07 yet you want to compare that to Shaq/Jordan level domination. Why the double standard?

Raps18-19 Champ
03-13-2016, 04:43 PM
2007/2008 to 2013/2014.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 07:31 PM
CP3 and Kobe were debated for the MVP but there were plenty at the time who thought Lebron was the best (Clevelands record wasn't good enough for that convo). 09 is when I think he became the most popular choice for best player in the league, not when that debate started though. Sure there was some talk of Kobe still in 2010 but that was largely due to past reputation and the laker fan base (or as you call it hardcore fanatics). There are people on here now still talking about Lebron being better than Curry but most know that time has passed for example. It usually happens that as players age a chunk of people still consider them the best longer than they should. I disagree about Lebron being better individually in 07, that's just when they had a better record/playoff run (didn't run into Celtics though).

Kobe vs. Lebron in 2009-2010 was very different than Lebron vs. Curry in 2015-2016. For starters, Kobe was still handling his business in the post season at a very elite level and still winning championships. In this situation, it's Curry who is not only dominant in the regular season, but the post season as well. I would give the regular season in 2009-2010 to Lebron for sure, but the post season belonged to Kobe and Lebron was ringless. Kind of hard to give someone best player in the NBA status with no rings. If you wanna go by regular season accolades, no context, and PER ranking, than Anthony Davis was the best in the league last season.


Statistically speaking Lebron was better than Kobe in the 08 regular season where as Kobe was probably a little better in the playoffs (granted with more support). Somewhat similar to last year with Lebron and Curry where you could choose either depending on your criteria. The following year Lebron had one of the best statistical seasons ever in both rs and playoffs so there was an obvious argument by 09 based on his impact and Kobe was in decline. You can disagree but I am just pointing out how people are likely voting on this.

Again, Lebron really had no post season success to speak of at that point. I personally would never call someone the best at any sport without any sort of post season success. Post season is more important to me than the regular season in my eyes and for many others as well. It's not the fact that people were still giving Kobe props for past accolades, they were taking into account that he was tested and proven in the post season same way Bron now gets leeway for not having superior regular seasons anymore in comparison to his peers. I hear all the time how he is coasting and saving himself for playoff time when it really matters. Same logic should apply for both scenarios I would think.


For someone bringing up playoffs you are going to use 06 as a clear cut domination of the league? I know his teams were bad but Dirk/Duncan were still dominant at that time and had much better playoffs individually (where Kobe had a poor showing individually in phx series not just as a team 06 at least). Kobe did not separate himself on an individual level those years in the same way as Lebron/Shaq/Jordan etc. He definitely has an argument and I think he likely was the best player one or even both years if you want to say that but it definitely wasn't clear cut and reflected in his personal impact (again not only team difference). I think if you did a poll of best player either of those years and a poll of best player in 09 it would be pretty similar results for how many take Kobe in 06 or 07 and Lebron in 09 with them likely winning but not at 95% each season. Very very few people would choose anyone outside of Shaq/Lebron/Jordan in their respective dominant years.

I would only take Lebron 2012 as a comparison to the sort of dominance we saw from Jordan and Shaq in their championship years. Jordan being the most dominant and total package and hence the GOAT.


I agree with your last comments and that is my point. Lebron had major separation those two years just like the guys you mentioned before him. That isn't the case with Kobe and it isn't just about his teams performance. I think it is too far to say Kobe was never the best player in the nba but it isn't to say that he was never clear cut best like the runs for any of those 3.

Yes, it's true that Kobe never had the same sort of separation that Lebron had in 2012-2013. That could be due to the lack of competition Lebron had at the time or the fact that Kobe during his top peak years had a complete garbage team around him. Either way, I would agree with the statement that Kobe never had the separation from the rest of the pack that Lebron had during those two years. Though, I still think that both Shaq and Jordan had better prime peak years than Lebron in terms of being the clear cut best. With Kobe it's more debatable. He wasted away those years with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker while Shaq had Kobe, Lebron had Wade and Bosh, and Jordan had Pippen when they were at their absolute best. Funny thing is that Kobe won his rings in both his pre-prime years and at the tail end of his prime, while Jordan and Shaq both three-peated in their peak prime years and Lebron repeated in his peak prime years.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 07:39 PM
We're talking about selecting the best individual player for a season (the thread asks us if its Bron or not).

I dont see how any of those seasons relate here nor do I agree with your subjective break downs. Lets stick to the topic here, whats your best player list look like, heres hoping its not merely a list of the best player on a championship team.

Well, based on my opinion I can give you a list, though most of it would be debatable as I said earlier. I can only label three seasons for any player over the past decade where it's clear cut and that player is Bron in 2012 and 2013 and Curry this season so far. Though that could change.

2006 Kobe
2007 Kobe
2008 Kobe
2009 Kobe/Bron/Wade
2010 Kobe/Bron/Wade
2011 Bron/Wade
2012 Bron (clear cut)
2013 Bron (clear cut)
2014 Bron/Durant
2015 Bron/Curry
2016 Curry (clear cut)

mngopher35
03-13-2016, 07:56 PM
Kobe vs. Lebron in 2009-2010 was very different than Lebron vs. Curry in 2015-2016. For starters, Kobe was still handling his business in the post season at a very elite level and still winning championships. In this situation, it's Curry who is not only dominant in the regular season, but the post season as well. I would give the regular season in 2009-2010 to Lebron for sure, but the post season belonged to Kobe and Lebron was ringless. Kind of hard to give someone best player in the NBA status with no rings. If you wanna go by regular season accolades, no context, and PER ranking, than Anthony Davis was the best in the league last season.

This is ridiculous and goes to that double standard. Winning a ring does not define the best player each year, their individual impact/production does. When Curry/Lebron went head to head in the finals only one of them recieved finals MVP votes and it was not Curry. Sure there were clear differences in support but when judging the individuals those situations are similar due to Lebron better RS but not clearly playoffs in 08 (Lebron in 2010 was individually as good/better as Kobe and in 09 it wasn't close in either RS or Playoffs). If anyone is ignoring context here it is you by just using the rings argument with no regard to the teams they were on. In 09 when Kobe won his first FMVP after having a worse regular season (resulting in Lebrons first MVP) he put up 32.5, 7.5, 5.5 on 111 ortg (almost the same as team efficiency overall). Lebron against that same team in a losing effort put up 38.5, 8, 8 on 118 ortg (8pts higher than rest of team efficiency). The context you are ignoring here is obvious in that Lebron didn't have Pau or a player producing like him or a front court to stop Dwight. When we are talking individuals just listing a team accomplishment is ignoring context much more than looking at them individually like this and considering the circumstances.




Again, Lebron really had no post season success to speak of at that point. I personally would never call someone the best at any sport without any sort of post season success. Post season is more important to me than the regular season in my eyes and for many others as well. It's not the fact that people were still giving Kobe props for past accolades, they were taking into account that he was tested and proven in the post season same way Bron now gets leeway for not having superior regular seasons anymore in comparison to his peers. I hear all the time how he is coasting and saving himself for playoff time when it really matters. Same logic should apply for both scenarios I would think.

No, Lebron had not been on a team that won a championship. There is a difference between individual play and the team. I agree the post season is more important which is why I don't think Lebron was clearly better until 09 when he individually dominated both RS and Playoffs (his numbers are all time level that year for both). Again see the example above on why just looking at team success is ignoring context and the play of an individual. This is why so many people here voted for 5+ years, they don't just judge on rings like you appear to.


I would only take Lebron 2012 as a comparison to the sort of dominance we saw from Jordan and Shaq in their championship years. Jordan being the most dominant and total package and hence the GOAT.

Alright, just saying to most he hit that level at least one season which in itself is very rare (whether one or multiple seasons).


Yes, it's true that Kobe never had the same sort of separation that Lebron had in 2012-2013. That could be due to the lack of competition Lebron had at the time or the fact that Kobe during his top peak years had a complete garbage team around him. Either way, I would agree with the statement that Kobe never had the separation from the rest of the pack that Lebron had during those two years. Though, I still think that both Shaq and Jordan had better prime peak years than Lebron in terms of being the clear cut best. With Kobe it's more debatable. He wasted away those years with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker while Shaq had Kobe, Lebron had Wade and Bosh, and Jordan had Pippen when they were at their absolute best. Funny thing is that Kobe won his rings in both his pre-prime years and at the tail end of his prime, while Jordan and Shaq both three-peated in their peak prime years and Lebron repeated in his peak prime years.

Notice how within the second sentence here you mention his team but with Lebron it was only about winning a ring and none of the extra context? How you described his teammates and lack of success as if it somehow isn't solely dependent on one person? Now start to do that with the rest of your analysis instead of simply looking at rings. I agree Kobe won both pre-prime and post-peak, that goes to my points above on judging these players individually not based off team success. Kobe has no argument at all for best player in the league in 06 or 07 if we use the same types of reasoning you had been listing above on team success in the post season.


Edit: Want to add recent post


Well, based on my opinion I can give you a list, though most of it would be debatable as I said earlier. I can only label three seasons for any player over the past decade where it's clear cut and that player is Bron in 2012 and 2013 and Curry this season so far. Though that could change.

2006 Kobe
2007 Kobe
2008 Kobe
2009 Kobe/Bron/Wade
2010 Kobe/Bron/Wade
2011 Bron/Wade
2012 Bron (clear cut)
2013 Bron (clear cut)
2014 Bron/Durant
2015 Bron/Curry
2016 Curry (clear cut)

Notice how the only 3 years you have Kobe as 1st he did not win a ring? In fact he had some flat out poor performances in the post season for an all time level. Somehow the only way for Lebron to be best was to get one when he had better regular seasons and playoff performances in combination. Again double standard.

andy2518
03-13-2016, 08:42 PM
This is ridiculous and goes to that double standard. Winning a ring does not define the best player each year, their individual impact/production does. When Curry/Lebron went head to head in the finals only one of them recieved finals MVP votes and it was not Curry. Sure there were clear differences in support but when judging the individuals those situations are similar due to Lebron better RS but not clearly playoffs in 08 (Lebron in 2010 was individually as good/better as Kobe and in 09 it wasn't close in either RS or Playoffs). If anyone is ignoring context here it is you by just using the rings argument with no regard to the teams they were on. In 09 when Kobe won his first FMVP after having a worse regular season (resulting in Lebrons first MVP) he put up 32.5, 7.5, 5.5 on 111 ortg (almost the same as team efficiency overall). Lebron against that same team in a losing effort put up 38.5, 8, 8 on 118 ortg (8pts higher than rest of team efficiency). The context you are ignoring here is obvious in that Lebron didn't have Pau or a player producing like him or a front court to stop Dwight. When we are talking individuals just listing a team accomplishment is ignoring context much more than looking at them individually like this and considering the circumstances.

It's not about winning a ring at all, though that does help a lot IMO as does post season success. Otherwise why not give it to AD last season. He was a regular season dynamo last year.

You fail to take into account how poor Lebron's poor perimeter defense was against Orlando. He got lit up by Rafer Alston and as well as Turk throughout the later games of the series. Especially in a crucial game five by Rafer. When you don't chase guys down on the perimeter on the defensive end and let them drain sick amounts of three's on you, I'd hope you had some damn incredible offensive numbers especially if you are the reigning MVP. We should hold Lebron to a higher standard when comparing him to the best in the world because he is just that good. I think I said that I agreed with anyone who would put Lebron on Kobe's level at this point. I just would not say that it was clear cut. Wade was pretty damn good this year too. Kobe had Fish helping him play perimeter D and the Lakers didn't get lit up the same way the Cavs did from beyond the arc. You have to take that into account too.

EDIT: The opinions of a few select members of the media do not influence my decision making. I am more than capable of watching the games for my self and then coming to my own conclusions based on what I saw. Lebron shot less than 50% on his True Shot Percentage and his ORTG was only 104 for as much as he scored and assisted. Personally, I would not in one million years have even considered him for finals MVP on a losing team with such poor shooting efficiency as well as poor offensive production per 100 minutes played. Though I must say I don't even think that West necessarily deserved it in 1969 and his team went to seven in OT and he played better than Lebron. I am a pretty hard sell in that regard.




No, Lebron had not been on a team that won a championship. There is a difference between individual play and the team. I agree the post season is more important which is why I don't think Lebron was clearly better until 09 when he individually dominated both RS and Playoffs (his numbers are all time level that year for both). Again see the example above on why just looking at team success is ignoring context and the play of an individual. This is why so many people here voted for 5+ years, they don't just judge on rings like you appear to.

Kobe's poor shot selection and inability to rack up triple doubles like Lebron put him at a disadvantage when comparing them only from the perspective of advanced statistics. I look at all the intangibles and overall impact they had throughout. Kobe causes more mismatches for opposing teams due to his versatility in shot making. Kobe was also the more savvy vet at the time and it showed. No Lebron didn't have Pau, but he was favored against Orlando and had HCA and still lost. His team had the ability to rack up far more wins in the regular season than did Orlando in the same conference. That says something. Lebron was not in a situation where the opposing teams overall talent outweighed his. I could easily point to Rafer Alston lighting him up in a crucial game five as a turning point in that series. Something a savvy battle tested vet like Kobe would not have and did not allow to happen to him. Both Kobe, Lebron, and Wade were elite that year. Though personally I would take Kobe to lead my team in 2009 based on his post season experience. Basically, he is not going to make the same mistakes someone like Lebron who had far less experience at the time had. I believe the Pro-Lebron camp made the same argument last season in regards to Curry and Lebron in the finals. I was constantly hearing about how Lebron was coasting and saving himself for the playoffs. Talk about double standards. Lebron and Curry in 2015 is a great comparison to Kobe Lebron in 2009. Both were in the conversation or best player in the world, but none were clear cut. I think that is fair to say without a doubt.


Alright, just saying to most he hit that level at least one season which in itself is very rare (whether one or multiple seasons).

Agreed.


Notice how within the second sentence here you mention his team but with Lebron it was only about winning a ring and none of the extra context? How you described his teammates and lack of success as if it somehow isn't solely dependent on one person? Now start to do that with the rest of your analysis instead of simply looking at rings. I agree Kobe won both pre-prime and post-peak, that goes to my points above on judging these players individually not based off team success. Kobe has no argument at all for best player in the league in 06 or 07 if we use the same types of reasoning you had been listing above on team success in the post season.

I was going off past post-season success. Kobe was already battle tested in those years. We knew he was capable of closing the deal in the playoffs if he had the right talent around him. It just so happened he had a horrible squad around him. Kobe has been the only one since the Jordan era to average 35 ppg and he did it in an era with far less possession per game. Kobe was just on fire in 2006 and 2007 and he was still playing defense at an elite level while breaking scoring accolades on the level of MJ and Wilt. He at least has to be in the conversation for best in the league in those years




Notice how the only 3 years you have Kobe as 1st he did not win a ring? In fact he had some flat out poor performances in the post season for an all time level. Somehow the only way for Lebron to be best was to get one when he had better regular seasons and playoff performances in combination. Again double standard.

I think I am justified in 2011 with that opinion and we could probably both agree on that. Give me a year in which Lebron did not win a ring and you thought he was the clear cut best and I will give you my reasoning as to why if I disagree. Hope that sounds fair to you. As I said earlier, it's not only about not winning a ring, it's about past and present post season success as well as how well their peers did. In some of those years, Durant and or Wade had some pretty sick years as well and that is what contributed to not making it so clear cut to me as well. We both agree that 2012 and 2013 it is pretty damn clear cut so I don't know what other years you are referring to.

Kyben36
03-13-2016, 08:45 PM
he overtook kobe prolly around 2007-2008

andy2518
03-13-2016, 08:53 PM
he overtook kobe prolly around 2007-2008

Sure, if you only want to look at the regular season. By that logic, AD and Curry overtook Lebron last season.

IKnowHoops
03-13-2016, 08:56 PM
How does it contradict my point? I'm not arguing that the guy is not doing his job (until he faces the West in the Finals), I'm saying that he is afforded to coast in the reg season (and frankly often in the playoffs as well) to a degree that you just don't see in the other conference. Specifically seeing as he teamed up with the Easts other best player and the Easts best PF in his prime. Once they became largely useless to him, he jumped ship with another one of the leagues top PF's and the best rising PG in the East in his old home. Lol c'mon, we're not dense enough to think these moves are by accident Hawk. He created a situation where he could largely coast in the regular season, focus on the Finals, and not have to worry too much about his road to get there (seeding, etc).

What I'm saying is, if anybody brings up the "6 straight Finals argument", it had better be included with the context of how that happens. It is a WHOLE different ball game if he's day in/day out + going through the West playoffs; One where there is obviously no situation where he is going to 6 straight Finals.

I don't think context is needed because I truly believe that not a single player in the league could of did what he did. I don't think there are any players that can coast there way to 27/7/7 for 6 straight seasons and get to the finals all those years, especially if they have to play against Lebron to get there.

mngopher35
03-13-2016, 09:58 PM
It's not about winning a ring at all, though that does help a lot IMO as does post season success. Otherwise why not give it to AD last season. He was a regular season dynamo last year.

You fail to take into account how poor Lebron's poor perimeter defense was against Orlando. He got lit up by Rafer Alston and as well as Turk throughout the later games of the series. Especially in a crucial game five by Rafer. When you don't chase guys down on the perimeter on the defensive end and let them drain sick amounts of three's on you, I'd hope you had some damn incredible offensive numbers especially if you are the reigning MVP. We should hold Lebron to a higher standard when comparing him to the best in the world because he is just that good. I think I said that I agreed with anyone who would put Lebron on Kobe's level at this point. I just would not say that it was clear cut. Wade was pretty damn good this year too. Kobe had Fish helping him play perimeter D and the Lakers didn't get lit up the same way the Cavs did from beyond the arc. You have to take that into account too.

EDIT: The opinions of a few select members of the media do not influence my decision making. I am more than capable of watching the games for my self and then coming to my own conclusions based on what I saw. Lebron shot less than 50% on his True Shot Percentage and his ORTG was only 104 for as much as he scored and assisted. Personally, I would not in one million years have even considered him for finals MVP on a losing team with such poor shooting efficiency as well as poor offensive production per 100 minutes played. Though I must say I don't even think that West necessarily deserved it in 1969 and his team went to seven in OT and he played better than Lebron. I am a pretty hard sell in that regard.

Alright I was simply going off what you used as the criteria in the initial post. The reason AD was not better based off that season alone is it is the first time he was even in the conversation and overall isn't as influential nor create as much for his teammates as Lebron/Curry do. It did however get him into the conversation for much of the year despite these things.

You are exaggerating the extent to which Lebron defensively effected the team, Dwight was the issue. They were doing many different things on defense to try and stop Dwight which lead to so many open shots on recovery not in 1v1 situations nearly as often. In the Lakers series Kobe was not forced into as many different roles and situations because he had the help to handle Dwight without that extra attention. Big difference. Again though Lebron was clearly superior in the regular season and overall post season but the only argument made for Kobe so far is his team success. If you think that Lebrons defense in this series is not only the main difference between the two but enough to negate the entire season that is on you and your opinion of the series but I have never seen this used in such a way (outside of a poster named amos, have you made your return?). Lebrons DRTG for the series is equal to Orlando's team total that series basically which is the same thing in the finals with Kobe (granted that shouldn't hold as much weight as the context I mentioned as drtg is poor individually). The big difference on that end is the domination of Dwight and amount Cleveland had to switch things up just trying to find a way to stop them. Again you seem intent on ignoring context behind these situations when it suits you. Even with all of this though their overall production was far different and offense is more important than defense (especially when it is the big man hurting the team which neither of them guard). Lebron had an all time great year on a statistical level better than any year of Kobe's let alone one where Kobe was on the decline. Whether it is ppg, apg, offensive efficiency, rebounds per game Lebron lead in every category for the regular season, post season, and even the series we mentioned. For the year Lebron finished 2nd in DPOY as well as getting the MVP. He was definitely the superior player that season outside of the opinion of a few people who think Kobe still was up there (earlier I believe you referred to people like this as fanatics or something).

If you want to bring up Lebron's ortg in the finals why not use context again and look at Currys and their respective teams. It is getting to the point where this discussion will go no where because you have a clear bias and ignore certain context to help prove your own opinions (in other cases that same context can be thrown out the window if you like the guy).




Kobe's poor shot selection and inability to rack up triple doubles like Lebron put him at a disadvantage when comparing them only from the perspective of advanced statistics. I look at all the intangibles and overall impact they had throughout. Kobe causes more mismatches for opposing teams due to his versatility in shot making. Kobe was also the more savvy vet at the time and it showed. No Lebron didn't have Pau, but he was favored against Orlando and had HCA and still lost. His team had the ability to rack up far more wins in the regular season than did Orlando in the same conference. That says something. Lebron was not in a situation where the opposing teams overall talent outweighed his. I could easily point to Rafer Alston lighting him up in a crucial game five as a turning point in that series. Something a savvy battle tested vet like Kobe would not have and did not allow to happen to him. Both Kobe, Lebron, and Wade were elite that year. Though personally I would take Kobe to lead my team in 2009 based on his post season experience. Basically, he is not going to make the same mistakes someone like Lebron who had far less experience at the time had. I believe the Pro-Lebron camp made the same argument last season in regards to Curry and Lebron in the finals. I was constantly hearing about how Lebron was coasting and saving himself for the playoffs. Talk about double standards. Lebron and Curry in 2015 is a great comparison to Kobe Lebron in 2009. Both were in the conversation or best player in the world, but none were clear cut. I think that is fair to say without a doubt.


Again your point here is that a team lost even though Lebron individually played amazing, better than Kobe against the same group. He even made a buzzer beater that series so it's not like he wasn't coming up big when it mattered. They couldn't stop Dwight and Pau was easily better than anyone on Cleveland, this is obvious to anyone who watched those series. The ignorance of this context and focus on minor details over and over further illustrates how your opinion is basing the way you do your analysis instead of keeping the same criteria throughout. Why didn't Kobe stop Nash in 2006? Why does his lack of production anywhere near the level of Lebrons on top of this still let him be the best that season or following seasons against PHX/Boston. Why does losing not matter when it is Kobe but even when Lebron reaches levels Kobe never has winning is a major factor?

The difference is that last season in the playoffs their impact was comparable (Lebron actually had the better finals) whereas Kobe has never in his career reached the regular or post season level of Lebrons 2009 impact/production. Even in the finals he was clearly a level below the Lebron a series before. That is far more important than just team success or the simple opinion of one over another for reasons that don't follow through to other types of analysis (double standard I've pointed out).




I was going off past post-season success. Kobe was already battle tested in those years. We knew he was capable of closing the deal in the playoffs if he had the right talent around him. It just so happened he had a horrible squad around him. Kobe has been the only one since the Jordan era to average 35 ppg and he did it in an era with far less possession per game. Kobe was just on fire in 2006 and 2007 and he was still playing defense at an elite level while breaking scoring accolades on the level of MJ and Wilt. He at least has to be in the conversation for best in the league in those years

So essentially because Kobe got to be the 2nd best player on championship teams next to Shaq it no longer matters if his team won? Again this is simply a double standard using past team success and ignoring context on top. On top of this Kobe's defense was no more elite than Lebron in 2009 (in fact it was worse). I can get into the stats and DPOY voting but I doubt it makes much difference to you. I agree Kobe had a terrible squad and that is why they didn't go anywhere but to ignore the same factors when it comes to Lebron only shows your bias and double standards. When is the last time a player averaged 38.5, 8, 8 with great efficiency in a series? What about 35, 7, 9 on 128 ortg for the entire playoffs? Had a 31.7 PER, 13 BPM and .318 WS for a season while finishing 2nd in DPOY voting? You can talk about 35 ppg all you want but Lebron was hitting even higher levels of production throughout the year we are talking about yet you have decided to focus on team results in his case while ignoring the entire picture like you try to point out for Kobe.



I think I am justified in 2011 with that opinion and we could probably both agree on that. Give me a year in which Lebron did not win a ring and you thought he was the clear cut best and I will give you my reasoning as to why if I disagree. Hope that sounds fair to you. As I said earlier, it's not only about not winning a ring, it's about past and present post season success as well as how well their peers did. In some of those years, Durant and or Wade had some pretty sick years as well and that is what contributed to not making it so clear cut to me as well. We both agree that 2012 and 2013 it is pretty damn clear cut so I don't know what other years you are referring to.

2009 I believe Lebron was clearly the best, I have given my reasoning throughout our conversations. Lebron did this a couple years after leading a very poor team to the finals as a very young kid as well. He did not have Shaq or Phil so they got swept handily by Duncan/Parker/Ginobli/Pop but it is not like this was the first year of Lebron having success and being a dominant individual.

Edit: Just for reference here is an article talking about that game four you mention. I googled Lebron guarding Rafer Alston and it was the first thing to come up and was written at the time not after 6 years hindsight/based off memory like mine but says similar to what I did earlier.http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1243413263268340.xml&coll=2

Within the article it says "There have been daggers from Rashard Lewis and heartbreakers from Hedo Turkoglu in this Eastern Conference finals.

That is why the Cavaliers opted to leave point guard Rafer Alston wide open for most of Game 4 on Tuesday night.

"I'm probably not the most consistent one out of all the bunch as far as making 3s," Alston admitted.

Cleveland tried to capitalize on Alston's streaky nature by switching to a defense that assigned LeBron James to the 6-2 guard so James could more easily switch to double-teaming the Magic's powerful center, Dwight Howard."

It also says In Game 4, James gave Alston more space. Alston found it more of a challenge.

"It's been a challenge to me all playoff long," Alston said. "In Philadelphia, their coach dared me to shoot it, and I burned them. In Boston, they dared me to shoot it and I burned them. They're [Cleveland] daring me to shoot it, too."

So they were not the only team to have to do this but it was the only way for some to stop Dwight. To label a strategy of sagging off him to help (which had been used before and is a coach decision) to claim his defense was horrible tells me you weren't aware of the context or will reach for basically anything you can. For this to be one of your main arguments so far on why Kobe was better that season is just laughable in itself (plus mentioning team success/days with Shaq, not much better), ignoring everything listed above where Lebron was clearly superior and taking his defensive assignment out of context. His two best series were the ones where Dwight absolutely dominated (phi and cle) and help needed to be given, that isn't an individual assignment issue on the wings it is a team strategy due to another player being the real problem.

Jeffy25
03-14-2016, 12:42 PM
he overtook kobe prolly around 2007-2008

He was better than Kobe by his second season in the league (04-05)

LeBron - 27.2/7.4/7.2 - 25.7 PER, .554 TS%
Kobe - 27.6/5.9/6.0 - 23.3 PER, .563 TS%

Jeffy25
03-14-2016, 12:46 PM
Sure, if you only want to look at the regular season. By that logic, AD and Curry overtook Lebron last season.

LeBron has been the best player in the post-season since he started playing in the post-season

He leads the NBA in the following stats since he started

36.9 WS
27.4 PER
178 Games
7561 Minutes
1188 Assists
305 Steals
5020 Points

(second in rebounds to Duncan)

LeBron is chasing down Jordan in the playoffs right now. He's been as good in the post-season as he has the regular season in his career, despite a faulty reputation.

bagwell368
03-14-2016, 01:01 PM
+5 years. People try and dog him and give Kobe more years but since 90 it has been MJ-Hakeem-MJ-Shaq-Duncan-Kobe-LeBron-Curry

Oh oh, off topic battle coming...

When was Kobe the best player in the NBA for a season? He was top 5-8 almost every year, but show me a #1 or a #2?

Hawkeye15
03-14-2016, 01:03 PM
Oh oh, off topic battle coming...

When was Kobe the best player in the NBA for a season? He was top 5-8 almost every year, but show me a #1 or a #2?

you can't statistically make an argument for Kobe being the best player in any given year.

DanG
03-14-2016, 02:08 PM
Westbrook this year: PER 27.9 | TS% .557 | WS/48 .246

Kobe 2005-2006: PER 28.0 | TS% .559 | WS/48 .224

By this logic Westbrook is as good or even better than Kobe ever was :laugh:.

Even better:

Kobe 2008-2009: PER 24.4 | TS% .561 | WS/48 .206

Do you think the Lakers would still win the championship if you replace Kobe with 2015-2016 Westbrook?

These stats are way overvalued and overrated IMO.

Tony_Starks
03-14-2016, 02:47 PM
Westbrook this year: PER 27.9 | TS% .557 | WS/48 .246

Kobe 2005-2006: PER 28.0 | TS% .559 | WS/48 .224

By this logic Westbrook is as good or even better than Kobe ever was :laugh:.

Even better:

Kobe 2008-2009: PER 24.4 | TS% .561 | WS/48 .206

Do you think the Lakers would still win the championship if you replace Kobe with 2015-2016 Westbrook?

These stats are way overvalued and overrated IMO.


Agreed.

Advanced stats without context, along with narratives for the lazy fan, are the worst things to ever happen to these player debates.

tredigs
03-14-2016, 02:56 PM
Well, personally I prefer peak KD to peak Kobe, and all the OKC fans will tell you that Westbrook is actually the teams best player right now (granted, despite playing great, it's not Durants best season). He/they have had some blunders lately, but he's playing at an incredible level by and large. That team simply can't do a damn thing without those two on the floor, and they're still 22 games over .500 and on pace for 55+ wins. I'd rather have peak Kobe (on both ends of the floor to be honest), but Westbrook has his advantages over him; A PG who is a dominant facilitator, scorer and rebounder (even at the PG position, a better rebounder than Kobe ever was) absolutely cripples other teams. I'm just looking this up, and it's not shocking to me that he is #3 in the NBA in RPM behind Curry and Kawhi. He wrecks teams.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2016, 03:33 PM
Westbrook this year: PER 27.9 | TS% .557 | WS/48 .246

Kobe 2005-2006: PER 28.0 | TS% .559 | WS/48 .224

By this logic Westbrook is as good or even better than Kobe ever was :laugh:.

Even better:

Kobe 2008-2009: PER 24.4 | TS% .561 | WS/48 .206

Do you think the Lakers would still win the championship if you replace Kobe with 2015-2016 Westbrook?

These stats are way overvalued and overrated IMO.

Idk, I would probably lean peak Kobe over Westbrook, but I can accept if someone goes with Westbrook. He is awesome.

And that is why I said, statistically, Kobe was never the league's best player in a given year. His all time ranking and greatness comes from being a top 5 player for freaking ever, it doesn't come from his peak.

Hangin n Wangin
03-14-2016, 03:37 PM
Idk, I would probably lean peak Kobe over Westbrook, but I can accept if someone goes with Westbrook. He is awesome.

And that is why I said, statistically, Kobe was never the league's best player in a given year. His all time ranking and greatness comes from being a top 5 player for freaking ever, it doesn't come from his peak.

That's your opinion.

And you're a known Kobe hater. So it doesn't mean much.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2016, 03:45 PM
That's your opinion.

And you're a known Kobe hater. So it doesn't mean much.

what is opinion? That Kobe was never statistically the best player?

Feel free to try and prove it wrong. Stats don't have bias, they are just recorded results.

mngopher35
03-14-2016, 04:37 PM
Agreed.

Advanced stats without context, along with narratives for the lazy fan, are the worst things to ever happen to these player debates.

Ignoring either one of context or stats is a bad way to go. Generally those who use stats around here are at least willing to discuss their opinion further if you have issues. Feel free to call people out individually when you do have those issues or disagree, that would be much better than just complaining about it in multiple threads. Lazy narratives are far more common around here from those that don't use any statistical analysis and base everything off their eye test (aka opinion).

Chronz
03-14-2016, 06:34 PM
Ignoring either one of context or stats is a bad way to go. Generally those who use stats around here are at least willing to discuss their opinion further if you have issues. Feel free to call people out individually when you do have those issues or disagree, that would be much better than just complaining about it in multiple threads. Lazy narratives are far more common around here from those that don't use any statistical analysis and base everything off their eye test (aka opinion).

He won't. The worst thing to happen to psd are these guys learning the definition of the word context and merely suggesting a lack of context makes their argument. Newsflash homers, the context of those stats can actually make your case worse. Next time someone uses the word context in rebuttal to a statistical fact, i can almost guarantee it will be a subjective post devoid of context

mngopher35
03-14-2016, 07:11 PM
He won't. The worst thing to happen to psd are these guys learning the definition of the word context and merely suggesting a lack of context makes their argument. Newsflash homers, the context of those stats can actually make your case worse. Next time someone uses the word context in rebuttal to a statistical fact, i can almost guarantee it will be a subjective post devoid of context

Totally agree. That's why I will just tell them to call out the individuals and discuss the reasoning of what context is being ignored. Like I said most of the posters who I have seen use stats around here will gladly explain their reasoning and go in depth on context if that is what someone wants to do or if you disagree with their take.

Jeffy25
03-14-2016, 07:40 PM
Westbrook this year: PER 27.9 | TS% .557 | WS/48 .246

Kobe 2005-2006: PER 28.0 | TS% .559 | WS/48 .224

By this logic Westbrook is as good or even better than Kobe ever was :laugh:.

Even better:

Kobe 2008-2009: PER 24.4 | TS% .561 | WS/48 .206

Do you think the Lakers would still win the championship if you replace Kobe with 2015-2016 Westbrook?

These stats are way overvalued and overrated IMO.

Westbrook is one of the better players in the game this year and is having the best season of his career lol and is leading a team that is killing it in the West while playing behind two of the best teams ever.

I don't see why this is laughable, Westbrook is having a great season, even if he isn't the best player in the game.


Btw, 05-06 Lakers won 45 games

Thunder already have 44 wins with 16 games to go.

Kush McDaniels
03-14-2016, 07:43 PM
what is opinion? That Kobe was never statistically the best player?

Feel free to try and prove it wrong. Stats don't have bias, they are just recorded results.

You're clearly a hater if you use stats to prove what he doesn't believe in.

Jeffy25
03-14-2016, 07:58 PM
That's your opinion.

And you're a known Kobe hater. So it doesn't mean much.

Well he only won one MVP, and you can easily argue that others deserved it more
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp

He was rarely in the top 5 in most relevant statistical categories, but consistently in the top 10.

mngopher35
03-14-2016, 08:00 PM
Westbrook this year: PER 27.9 | TS% .557 | WS/48 .246

Kobe 2005-2006: PER 28.0 | TS% .559 | WS/48 .224

By this logic Westbrook is as good or even better than Kobe ever was :laugh:.

Even better:

Kobe 2008-2009: PER 24.4 | TS% .561 | WS/48 .206

Do you think the Lakers would still win the championship if you replace Kobe with 2015-2016 Westbrook?

These stats are way overvalued and overrated IMO.

I am not sure who this is aimed at but Westbrook this year has had a better regular season than Kobe in 09 I would say, just like he is currently having a better one than Lebron. I don't think that is ridiculous to say at all considering their age and that they likely were conserving for a title run. When it comes to the post season however Westbrook has never hit the PER, WS/48, ORTG (just checked and he tied ortg in 6 game series his first run with lower volume, not as impressive) or 30 ppg like Kobe did in 09 so statistically he is not better than Kobe ever was all around (at least yet). I don't think anyone they faced in 09 would beat them if you replaced Kobe with Westbrook though even if he isn't quite as good (would gladly entertain an argument though, which team would the lose to?).

When it comes to 06 it is very hard to judge considering the talent around Kobe. He had a very impressive year, outside of the playoffs, carrying a bad team. Considering the load he was carrying while being right there in efficiency I would say the stats are pretty close to even here. I think the difference is Westy next to Durant is in a better situation to succeed so personally would rank Kobe's 2006 season better. To laugh off Westbrooks impact this year doesn't make much sense to me though, if Curry weren't having an all time level season there would be some talk of him as top player so far this year. Kobe was never known more for his peak anyways, it was his consistently elite level play for so long.

Bruno
03-14-2016, 08:08 PM
have you guys ever listened to Haralabos Voulgaris and his opinion on using advanced metrics as the basis of argument in basketball discussion?

his opinion is legitimate. he's made more money the past 5 years betting on basketball than all of us have earned combined with our gigs. I was surprised by his opinion, considering that fact that numbers and formula is all that matters in his profession.

tredigs
03-14-2016, 08:17 PM
have you guys ever listened to Haralabos Voulgaris and his opinion on using advanced metrics as the basis of argument in basketball discussion?

his opinion is legitimate. he's made more money the past 5 years betting on basketball than all of us have earned combined with our gigs. I was surprised by his opinion, considering that fact that numbers and formula is all that matters in his profession.
summary/link?

Chronz
03-14-2016, 08:19 PM
Totally agree. That's why I will just tell them to call out the individuals and discuss the reasoning of what context is being ignored. Like I said most of the posters who I have seen use stats around here will gladly explain their reasoning and go in depth on context if that is what someone wants to do or if you disagree with their take.

Been saying it for years now man. Few people actually call out the detractors by name, they rather lump them all into a single group and hope their hate passes off as an actual argument. I'm starting to think I'm killing psd by holding people accountable

Chronz
03-14-2016, 08:48 PM
have you guys ever listened to Haralabos Voulgaris and his opinion on using advanced metrics as the basis of argument in basketball discussion?

his opinion is legitimate. he's made more money the past 5 years betting on basketball than all of us have earned combined with our gigs. I was surprised by his opinion, considering that fact that numbers and formula is all that matters in his profession.

Wat do you mean, hes admitted that about 90% of his Bets are based on statistical models so i can't imagine he's changed his specialty. I also recall him saying Kobe was even more overrated than the detractors/numbers suggest. Ur being VV ( very vague).

tredigs
03-14-2016, 09:12 PM
Wat do you mean, hes admitted that about 90% of his Bets are based on statistical models so i can't imagine he's changed his specialty. I also recall him saying Kobe was even more overrated than the detractors/numbers suggest. Ur being VV ( very vague).

Yeah, I know that he believes Kobe was overrated, and I also know that he has his own propriety software and that his bets are based off of those #'s. Curious as to what Bruno is talking about exactly.

Jeffy25
03-14-2016, 09:26 PM
Wat do you mean, hes admitted that about 90% of his Bets are based on statistical models so i can't imagine he's changed his specialty. I also recall him saying Kobe was even more overrated than the detractors/numbers suggest. Ur being VV ( very vague).

Yeah, I googled up a thing about him, and he just basically spoke about his predictive analysis models (i.e. he pretty clearly leans very heavily on statistics).

tredigs
03-14-2016, 09:27 PM
Haralabos in April of 2010 responding to questions of who was the better player between Kobe and Lebron,"Lebron and its not close". In responding to whether Kobe was overrated, "Yes he is overrated".

Hangin n Wangin
03-15-2016, 11:28 AM
Well he only won one MVP, and you can easily argue that others deserved it more
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp

He was rarely in the top 5 in most relevant statistical categories, but consistently in the top 10.

Stick to baseball, where you actually have a clue.

Jeffy25
03-15-2016, 11:32 AM
Stick to baseball, where you actually have a clue.

Stick to discussions where you wage an actual debate with facts and information and not narratives and condescending attacks

Hangin n Wangin
03-15-2016, 11:35 AM
Stick to discussions where you wage an actual debate with facts and information and not narratives and condescending attacks

That was an attack?? Wow, not a lot of thick skinned people on here I guess.

Jeffy25
03-15-2016, 11:36 AM
"Actually have a clue...."

My mistake, you clearly mean that in endearment.

Edit - spelling error

DanG
03-15-2016, 05:18 PM
I am not sure who this is aimed at but Westbrook this year has had a better regular season than Kobe in 09 I would say, just like he is currently having a better one than Lebron. I don't think that is ridiculous to say at all considering their age and that they likely were conserving for a title run. When it comes to the post season however Westbrook has never hit the PER, WS/48, ORTG (just checked and he tied ortg in 6 game series his first run with lower volume, not as impressive) or 30 ppg like Kobe did in 09 so statistically he is not better than Kobe ever was all around (at least yet). I don't think anyone they faced in 09 would beat them if you replaced Kobe with Westbrook though even if he isn't quite as good (would gladly entertain an argument though, which team would the lose to?).

When it comes to 06 it is very hard to judge considering the talent around Kobe. He had a very impressive year, outside of the playoffs, carrying a bad team. Considering the load he was carrying while being right there in efficiency I would say the stats are pretty close to even here. I think the difference is Westy next to Durant is in a better situation to succeed so personally would rank Kobe's 2006 season better. To laugh off Westbrooks impact this year doesn't make much sense to me though, if Curry weren't having an all time level season there would be some talk of him as top player so far this year. Kobe was never known more for his peak anyways, it was his consistently elite level play for so long.

Yeah I guess you can say he is having a better regular season, but that doesn't mean he is a better player. Posters often bring up these stats and say player A is better than player B because his PER, WS/48 is higher. It just doesn't work like that.


As for the Kobe-Westbrook replacement I would say the Lakers would definitely lose in WCF against Denver. That team was tough with Melo, Billups, J.R, Kenyon, Birdman etc. Kobe had to put up GOAT like numbers (34-6-6 on 48% whole series, 37-6-7 on 48% on the road) for the Lakers to win that series. Denver was 33-8 at home that year and I just don't think Westbrook is capable of what Kobe did on the road. With his questionable decision making at times I definitely wouldn't bet him to come up big in the clutch.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2016, 05:26 PM
Yeah I guess you can say he is having a better regular season, but that doesn't mean he is a better player. Posters often bring up these stats and say player A is better than player B because his PER, WS/48 is higher. It just doesn't work like that.


As for the Kobe-Westbrook replacement I would say the Lakers would definitely lose in WCF against Denver. That team was tough with Melo, Billups, J.R, Kenyon, Birdman etc. Kobe had to put up GOAT like numbers (34-6-6 on 48% whole series, 37-6-7 on 48% on the road) for the Lakers to win that series. Denver was 33-8 at home that year and I just don't think Westbrook is capable of what Kobe did on the road. With his questionable decision making at times I definitely wouldn't bet him to come up big in the clutch.

right, we can see maybe Westbrook, on paper, without context, might be having a better season. But does Westbrook work in the triangle with 3 post guys who need constant touches? I don't know about that. We know Kobe works as a huge usage scoring machine. So no, I wouldn't flip the two and expect the Lakers to not get worse.

That is why using stats AND context/roster/offense needs to happen, instead of just putting their advanced numbers next to each other and making a judgment. I can say, it is my opinion, that the Lakers do not win those last 2 rings if you replace Kobe with current Westbrook.

mngopher35
03-15-2016, 05:48 PM
Yeah I guess you can say he is having a better regular season, but that doesn't mean he is a better player. Posters often bring up these stats and say player A is better than player B because his PER, WS/48 is higher. It just doesn't work like that.

Alright, I agree with this. Writing something off because your opinion doesn't match the stats is wrong to do too though, just need to use context with them like always (in this case realizing it was regular season stats and why a player might not be going full out).



As for the Kobe-Westbrook replacement I would say the Lakers would definitely lose in WCF against Denver. That team was tough with Melo, Billups, J.R, Kenyon, Birdman etc. Kobe had to put up GOAT like numbers (34-6-6 on 48% whole series, 37-6-7 on 48% on the road) for the Lakers to win that series. Denver was 33-8 at home that year and I just don't think Westbrook is capable of what Kobe did on the road. With his questionable decision making at times I definitely wouldn't bet him to come up big in the clutch.

That is the series I think where it would have been close but Westbrook basically would have had to outplay Carmelo which I personally believe he is better today than Melo was then. Even if they ended up losing an extra game they did win that series in 6 and Gasol was better than Billups (last game was a blowout too). Dirk put up 34.5, 11.6, 4 ast the series before as well so while impressive stats from Kobe we had recently seen similar against that defense already. On top of this Westbrook has improved overall since his last playoff performance where he averaged 26.7 pts and 8.3 assists so raising that level for a series after he's improved isn't far fetched. Billups might be able to slow Westbrook (although honestly I think his athleticism/attacking nature might be too much at that point). On the other end Westbrook could have slowed Billups down a bit too though and that would be important since he was their most efficient/arguably best creator that series.

I won't say they would for sure win with Westy but I think saying they definitely would not win is wrong, they would have had a chance just slightly lesser one (as Hawk pointed out it may have changed the dynamic but I think Phil is capable of getting the best out of them). Main point being I wouldn't laugh off the idea of Westbrook being near that level of play or capable of leading that Lakers team to a title.

Jeffy25
03-15-2016, 09:22 PM
Yeah I guess you can say he is having a better regular season, but that doesn't mean he is a better player. Posters often bring up these stats and say player A is better than player B because his PER, WS/48 is higher. It just doesn't work like that.
You are talking about individual seasons, not who is the better players. All that says is who is having the better season, not who would be the better players. There is a difference.

You can't share the numbers of single seasons and act like that encompasses them entirely.

Career
Westbrook: PER 22.8 | TS% .529 | WS/48 .160

Kobe: PER 22.9 | TS% .550 | WS/48 .172

And that's with Kobe's decline in there.

The issue isn't stats, the issue is that you misused them to make a point that wasn't true and didn't support what you argued.





As for the Kobe-Westbrook replacement I would say the Lakers would definitely lose in WCF against Denver. That team was tough with Melo, Billups, J.R, Kenyon, Birdman etc. Kobe had to put up GOAT like numbers (34-6-6 on 48% whole series, 37-6-7 on 48% on the road) for the Lakers to win that series. Denver was 33-8 at home that year and I just don't think Westbrook is capable of what Kobe did on the road. With his questionable decision making at times I definitely wouldn't bet him to come up big in the clutch.
Kobe was/is a better shooter/scorer than Westbrook, but Westbrook is the better distributor.

Westbrook would probably have been very successful in his prime playing with a prime Gasol, Odom, and Bynum, and playing with a prime Shaq. He probably wins those 5 rings if he plays like he is currently on those rosters.

He would have probably been very unsuccessful on the teams that didn't have much support on them.

These two players don't have the exact same skillsets, and who and how they pair with would matter.

As far as clutch.

Well so far in their careers, who is more clutch.

Well even though Kobe is the better shooter overall, Westbrook has similar career shooting percentages when the game is within 5 points in the 4th quarter and overtime, just for a reference point on clutch, and Kobe has missed more buzzer beaters by a mile over any other player....the argument that he is clutch is pretty shaky.

Jeffy25
03-15-2016, 09:34 PM
right, we can see maybe Westbrook, on paper, without context, might be having a better season. But does Westbrook work in the triangle with 3 post guys who need constant touches? I don't know about that. We know Kobe works as a huge usage scoring machine. So no, I wouldn't flip the two and expect the Lakers to not get worse.

That is why using stats AND context/roster/offense needs to happen, instead of just putting their advanced numbers next to each other and making a judgment. I can say, it is my opinion, that the Lakers do not win those last 2 rings if you replace Kobe with current Westbrook.

2009

PG - Westbrook
SG - Fisher
SF - Ariza
PF - Gasol
C - Bynum
with Odom and Farmar off the bench

Against
Lee, Howard, Lewis, Turk, Alston


That playoff season, Kobe had 30/5/5 with 10/23 shooting 2 steals and a block on 2 turnovers and 1.5/4.5 3/s and 6.5/7.5 free throws

2010
G - Westbrook
G - Fisher
SF - Artest
PF - Gasol
C - Bynum
Odom off the bench


Against Pierce, Garnett, Rondo, Wallace, Allen and Davis off their bench

Kobe averaged 29/6/5 with 10/22 shooting, 2/5.5 on 3's, 7/8 FT's

I have to think Westbrook would have put up similar numbers in these sets as Kobe did


I think the 09 series they would beat the Magic. Kobe isn't why they limited Dwight Howard averaged only 15.4 points per night and Turk was their leading scorer (though C. Lee was limited possibly by Kobe?)

Maybe they don't get past the Rockets and Nuggets with Westbrook instead of Kobe? But you have to think this team wouldn't have been much worse with the Westbrook of this season (that was his argument).

The Celtics might be a bit of a different story, Ray Allen didn't produce a ton in that series, though I imagine they are in the Finals with Westbrook in that season, so who knows there.