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View Full Version : Gasol dominates old-school power rankings



mrblisterdundee
03-05-2016, 02:50 PM
NBA.com put out the Old School Power Rankings (http://www.nba.com/2016/news/03/05/old-school-power-rankings-week-15/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6c), a newer, interesting feature I hadn't seen before that ranks players in their mid- to upper-30s. Here are the rankings:

1. Pau Gasol
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Zach Randolph
4. Jamal Crawford
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Joe Johnson
7. Tony Parker
8. Matt Barnes
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Mike Dunleavy

Dissect.
I can live with Randolph being top-three, but Nowitzki should still be ahead of Crawford, who scored a bit more the last week but remained very one-dimensional. It's still pretty weird seeing Bryant so low on a list of old guys, and not seeing Tim Duncan's name at all.

DanG
03-05-2016, 05:51 PM
Never thought I'd see a day where Matt Barnes is listed ahead of Kobe Bryant, but I actually agree lol.

WaDe03
03-05-2016, 09:24 PM
Wades the best player on the list easily.

JasonJohnHorn
03-06-2016, 12:32 PM
Wades the best player on the list easily.

No bias here. ;-)

JasonJohnHorn
03-06-2016, 12:33 PM
Gasol is the guy I'd take over any of those other guys, though Duncan not being on the list is redic.

I'm really impressed with how well Gasol is playing. 35 and still an All-Star....

JAZZNC
03-06-2016, 03:21 PM
Gasol is probably the most underrated player of this generation. He is a phenomenal player that will likely be all but forgotten in 10yrs which is unfortunate.

COOLbeans
03-06-2016, 08:00 PM
Wade's held up nicely

Mave1002
03-07-2016, 05:02 AM
Bring him back to LA!

Gasol
Randle
Ingram
Clarkson
Russell

naps
03-07-2016, 05:18 AM
Wades the best player on the list easily.

That has nothing to do with these rankings, they change from 1 week to another since they take each week's total games into account to rank these guys. Cmon man. Wade is my favorite player but let's not irritate people with these comments.

tredigs
03-07-2016, 06:23 AM
Wade has not held up nicely. He tries to play like he's still young, and the team suffers as a result. They are a worse team when he is on the floor with the way he plays, period. Jamal being on this list, let alone ahead of a non-listed Duncan is hilarious. Another player who makes his team worse when he is on the floor. Pau's #1 though, he got one right.

I can tell you "Scott Wraight" does not actually watch many NBA games.

WaDe03
03-07-2016, 01:02 PM
Wade has held up nicely. He is our best player and he's also better than Klay who he dominated both games against. Also better than Butler. These guys will put up bigger numbers over the course of a season due to Wades age as well as playing less minutes but he's won every head to head matchup against them. People don't want to give credit where it is due for some reason.

WaDe03
03-07-2016, 02:21 PM
That has nothing to do with these rankings, they change from 1 week to another since they take each week's total games into account to rank these guys. Cmon man. Wade is my favorite player but let's not irritate people with these comments.

People have been bashing Wade and the Heat for years now calling him washed up. Idc if I'm irritating anyone on here, it's funny how wrong they were about him.

DanG
03-07-2016, 02:43 PM
People have been bashing Wade and the Heat for years now calling him washed up. Idc if I'm irritating anyone on here, it's funny how wrong they were about him.

Before the season most people expected Wade to be a top 20-25 player and that's what he has been.

tredigs
03-07-2016, 02:49 PM
Lol no definitely NOT a top 20-25 player. For those box-score watching, he probably seems fine. But Wade has been terrible for them. I have watched a lot of Heat this year, and they are without a doubt a better team when he sits (I just checked his RPM and that confirms my point there. He doesn't even rank among the top 20 SHOOTING GUARDS in the stat, which he rates negatively mostly due to his defense). He has all but given up defensively and is a black hole offensively. Reminds me of a less explosive Monta Ellis on my Dubs. Looking more at his #'s now. 103 offensive rating, .515 TS. Just not a good player.

Slug3
03-07-2016, 02:50 PM
Wades the best player on the list easily.

Wade for his age has been great for us, but Gasol has been pretty freaking good this year as well Averaging a double double with I think almost 2 blocks a game. He has been the bulls best consistent player.

WaDe03
03-07-2016, 03:13 PM
Lol no definitely NOT a top 20-25 player. For those box-score watching, he probably seems fine. But Wade has been terrible for them. I have watched a lot of Heat this year, and they are without a doubt a better team when he sits (I just checked his RPM and that confirms my point there. He doesn't even rank among the top 20 SHOOTING GUARDS in the stat, which he rates negatively mostly due to his defense). He has all but given up defensively and is a black hole offensively. Reminds me of a less explosive Monta Ellis on my Dubs. Looking more at his #'s now. 103 offensive rating, .515 TS. Just not a good player.

He's lead us to half a game back from the third seed. Still an elite player and outplays the top SGs in the league when they go head to head. Also if we didn't have him for the 4th quarters of games we would have a pretty bad record. He's better than Klay who couldn't come anywhere near guarding Wade but they say Klay is an elite defender. Kawhi couldn't guard him last game either. I'm confused how Wade isn't good. It's obvious you're a stat guy though so there's no way of changing your mind.

tredigs
03-07-2016, 03:36 PM
He's lead us to half a game back from the third seed. Still an elite player and outplays the top SGs in the league when they go head to head. Also if we didn't have him for the 4th quarters of games we would have a pretty bad record. He's better than Klay who couldn't come anywhere near guarding Wade but they say Klay is an elite defender. Kawhi couldn't guard him last game either. I'm confused how Wade isn't good. It's obvious you're a stat guy though so there's no way of changing your mind.
Not that there is any point in discussing Wade-related topics with you, but I'll say that Wade is not "leading" anything. You guys have the 10th best record (and 12th best win differential) because you have a strong team defense (4th best in the league). A strong defense that is stronger when Wade sits. But the other side is a mess and Wade's unwillingness to move the ball and run a legitimate offense is a big reason for their struggles. I see them as a 1st round exit. I'm happy that you're thrilled with Wade's 42% shooting in their 2 losses to Golden State this year, but Klay played fine in those games. In the 2nd of which (a "just another game" @ Miami in the middle of a long road trip for GSW, but the type of game Wade will attempt to go full bore in), Klay dropping an ultra efficient 33 with 4 threes and 4 steals.

Wade is not good for the same reason Monta was not good. You might see some assists numbers out of them, but they're black holes offensively (ball movement stops with Wade, he's now an ISO heavy guy who doesn't have 1/2 the ISO game he used to) who play ratchet defense. If Wade was good, they would be better with him on the floor. They're not.

WaDe03
03-07-2016, 03:53 PM
Not that there is any point in discussing Wade-related topics with you, but I'll say that Wade is not "leading" anything. You guys have the 10th best record (and 12th best win differential) because you have a strong team defense (4th best in the league). A strong defense that is stronger when Wade sits. But the other side is a mess and Wade's unwillingness to move the ball and run a legitimate offense is a big reason for their struggles. I see them as a 1st round exit. I'm happy that you're thrilled with Wade's 42% shooting in their 2 losses to Golden State this year, but Klay played fine in those games. In the 2nd of which (a "just another game" @ Miami in the middle of a long road trip for GSW, but the type of game Wade will attempt to go full bore in), Klay dropping an ultra efficient 33 with 4 threes and 4 steals.

Wade is not good for the same reason Monta was not good. You might see some assists numbers out of them, but they're black holes offensively (ball movement stops with Wade, he's now an ISO heavy guy who doesn't have 1/2 the ISO game he used to) who play ratchet defense. If Wade was good, they would be better with him on the floor. They're not.

Klay needs to thank Gerald Green for his terrible defense in helping Klay score 33. There wasn't a guy on Golden State who could stop him. Unfortunately the refs got the best of us to close that game out but that's a different discussion. Check the numbers since the all star break if you like numbers and also check them since we've got Joe. Wade also gave a speech the first game back from the all star break saying not to worry about him and just play their game and he will do what he does regardless. The result in that is 8-2 in the last 10 which should be 9-1. Dragic isn't playing timid anymore Whiteside is dominating off the bench (was fun to see him outplay Draymond by a mile after all that talk) Deng has basically given us Bosh production Joe has been very efficient and Wade himself has played better and more efficient. Dragic and Deng have both admitted that they have been way too passive with Wade and Bosh on the court because they aren't as good as them but now Wade told them to stop that and they've played great. I know it's pointless to argue with someone who just looks at numbers and has probably never played the game themselves.

mngopher35
03-07-2016, 04:39 PM
Klay needs to thank Gerald Green for his terrible defense in helping Klay score 33. There wasn't a guy on Golden State who could stop him. Unfortunately the refs got the best of us to close that game out but that's a different discussion. Check the numbers since the all star break if you like numbers and also check them since we've got Joe. Wade also gave a speech the first game back from the all star break saying not to worry about him and just play their game and he will do what he does regardless. The result in that is 8-2 in the last 10 which should be 9-1. Dragic isn't playing timid anymore Whiteside is dominating off the bench (was fun to see him outplay Draymond by a mile after all that talk) Deng has basically given us Bosh production Joe has been very efficient and Wade himself has played better and more efficient. Dragic and Deng have both admitted that they have been way too passive with Wade and Bosh on the court because they aren't as good as them but now Wade told them to stop that and they've played great. I know it's pointless to argue with someone who just looks at numbers and has probably never played the game themselves.

For someone who is claiming to be the only one watching why include the two games he sat out when discussing how good Wade has been for the team (both wins btw so 6-2 with and 2-0 without)? Of the 6 wins Wade was actually playing in two were against Philly, one Suns, A bulls team with no Butler, and the Knicks who are 3-12 I believe in their last 15. Indy was the best team they faced during that span (while winning, Boston/GS were losses and the refs were bad both ways in GS game but draymond picks were bad I agree) and Wade went 4/21 with more turnovers than assists against Indy (granted it was the 4th/ot where he was better at least it wasn't all horrible but still bad overall). Not really impressive if someone was actually paying attention but apparently context nor stats matter I guess.

I probably didn't play basketball either now and only look at context without considering raw stat totals right? What Tredigs said was correct, so far this season defense has been the biggest strength and Wade is basically a negative on that end at this point, at least during the regular season. His efficiency is again at a very low level and even in the games since the all star break it hasn't been that impressive other than getting to the line almost 10 times a game (shooting just under 42%, no 3's, and about 1.5 assist/turn ratio).

WaDe03
03-07-2016, 09:26 PM
For someone who is claiming to be the only one watching why include the two games he sat out when discussing how good Wade has been for the team (both wins btw so 6-2 with and 2-0 without)? Of the 6 wins Wade was actually playing in two were against Philly, one Suns, A bulls team with no Butler, and the Knicks who are 3-12 I believe in their last 15. Indy was the best team they faced during that span (while winning, Boston/GS were losses and the refs were bad both ways in GS game but draymond picks were bad I agree) and Wade went 4/21 with more turnovers than assists against Indy (granted it was the 4th/ot where he was better at least it wasn't all horrible but still bad overall). Not really impressive if someone was actually paying attention but apparently context nor stats matter I guess.

I probably didn't play basketball either now and only look at context without considering raw stat totals right? What Tredigs said was correct, so far this season defense has been the biggest strength and Wade is basically a negative on that end at this point, at least during the regular season. His efficiency is again at a very low level and even in the games since the all star break it hasn't been that impressive other than getting to the line almost 10 times a game (shooting just under 42%, no 3's, and about 1.5 assist/turn ratio).

If we're using context then we need to use the fact that Wade had been out for 2 weeks due to the all star break and missing 2 games before that pacers game. He was working off rust but as you said he did show up late and as long as we got the win that's all that matters regardless of how ugly it may have been. You have some good points but us being better with Wade off the court doesn't fall all on Wade. Guys have came out and said they've been too passive because they know they can rely on Wade and Bosh and have said they've been too reliant on them at times. Wade has gotten on to guys multiple times this year telling them they need to shoot and stop being passive. After his speech he gave everything's gone great on both sides of the ball and everyone's confidence has gone up. Wade may be too aggressive at times but for the most part he's getting good shots that he usually always knocks down so we'll take it. He's also too passive at times but I think he'll find a good medium to that specifically in the playoffs. I also think he will be getting to the rim more in the playoffs as opposed to settling for jumpers like he does sometimes in the regular season. What are the numbers with Wade on the court since the all star break in the 8 games he's played? I think he's been a positive in every game except maybe one. As for defense he may not be as good as he used to but I don't think he's terrible. Bosh also said he's an elite defender in the clutch which I agree with. I've seen him lock guys up at the ends of games when it mattered most. It sucks he can't do it all game every game like he used to but it's nice that he can crank it up when needed. Also when he comes out of the game it's usually him being subbed out for an elite defender in Justise (it's crazy how good he's been defensively) or Richardson who most may not know. Richardson is also a very solid long quick defender who is also ahead of his time. These 2 guys get after it on defense, you should try and see if you can find some videos of either playing defense, I guarantee you'll like what you see. Whiteside is also off the bench now which is also worth noting. Are you guys telling me if we met the Cavs in the playoffs we would have a better chance without Wade?

mngopher35
03-07-2016, 10:24 PM
If we're using context then we need to use the fact that Wade had been out for 2 weeks due to the all star break and missing 2 games before that pacers game. He was working off rust but as you said he did show up late and as long as we got the win that's all that matters regardless of how ugly it may have been.

You were the one who brought up since the all-star break so I was saying what he and the team had done since then and the only win with him vs. a decent team was the game I mentioned. I'm sure as a heat fan winning is what matters but when judging at an individual player a lot more goes into it.


You have some good points but us being better with Wade off the court doesn't fall all on Wade. Guys have came out and said they've been too passive because they know they can rely on Wade and Bosh and have said they've been too reliant on them at times. Wade has gotten on to guys multiple times this year telling them they need to shoot and stop being passive. After his speech he gave everything's gone great on both sides of the ball and everyone's confidence has gone up. Wade may be too aggressive at times but for the most part he's getting good shots that he usually always knocks down so we'll take it. He's also too passive at times but I think he'll find a good medium to that specifically in the playoffs. I also think he will be getting to the rim more in the playoffs as opposed to settling for jumpers like he does sometimes in the regular season.

He does seem to be attacking more recently since going small and I would think it increases come playoff time compared to his norm. Overall though his efficiency has been pretty bad and can't just be ignored. If he improves come playoff time great but until we see it he will be judged off his current play which as a whole isn't that impressive. There has been some fit issues and that seem better with the recent changes but again even in that small sample the only major change to his efficiency is getting to the line more so we will have to see how it progresses.


What are the numbers with Wade on the court since the all star break in the 8 games he's played? I think he's been a positive in every game except maybe one. As for defense he may not be as good as he used to but I don't think he's terrible. Bosh also said he's an elite defender in the clutch which I agree with. I've seen him lock guys up at the ends of games when it mattered most. It sucks he can't do it all game every game like he used to but it's nice that he can crank it up when needed. Also when he comes out of the game it's usually him being subbed out for an elite defender in Justise (it's crazy how good he's been defensively) or Richardson who most may not know. Richardson is also a very solid long quick defender who is also ahead of his time. These 2 guys get after it on defense, you should try and see if you can find some videos of either playing defense, I guarantee you'll like what you see. Whiteside is also off the bench now which is also worth noting. Are you guys telling me if we met the Cavs in the playoffs we would have a better chance without Wade?

Again though you have to remember this stretch has been pretty easy, especially just the wins. +/- needs a lot of data to become significant so it is really tough to try and judge a sample like this but for the season as a whole his on/off is only better than Josh Richardson of players with 500+ minutes played. Many times older players do have another gear for late in games or playoffs but I haven't watched them enough to truly say one way or the other (sounds like he does pick it up). That still doesn't make up for the rest of the game though and it is why his on/off and defensive stats are so low (defense is the bigger difference for on/off not major change offensively). When you add a defensive player in for him the offense isn't dropping off (slightly better) but the defense clearly improves.

I am not saying you would be better without wade but he also isn't a top 20-25 player anymore either (not a hard choice putting him outside that range). Wade has not been very good overall and a major part of that is his defense through most of the games and his efficiency (whether you define current Wade as washed up or declined it's a very clear drop off). I am not saying it is impossible that he plays better the rest of the way or in the playoffs either, just that so far it hasn't been a very good season for him. All in all I personally think him taking on a lesser role would help him and the team through at least until playoff time (that might just mean a few less minutes so when he is in he can play both ends more effectively or less time with him as focal point). It sounds like based on his speech (which I never heard about and could be misinterpreting based solely off your comment) he seems to think a lesser role where he is fitting into others playing their game would work as well.

WaDe03
03-08-2016, 01:36 AM
You were the one who brought up since the all-star break so I was saying what he and the team had done since then and the only win with him vs. a decent team was the game I mentioned. I'm sure as a heat fan winning is what matters but when judging at an individual player a lot more goes into it.



He does seem to be attacking more recently since going small and I would think it increases come playoff time compared to his norm. Overall though his efficiency has been pretty bad and can't just be ignored. If he improves come playoff time great but until we see it he will be judged off his current play which as a whole isn't that impressive. There has been some fit issues and that seem better with the recent changes but again even in that small sample the only major change to his efficiency is getting to the line more so we will have to see how it progresses.



Again though you have to remember this stretch has been pretty easy, especially just the wins. +/- needs a lot of data to become significant so it is really tough to try and judge a sample like this but for the season as a whole his on/off is only better than Josh Richardson of players with 500+ minutes played. Many times older players do have another gear for late in games or playoffs but I haven't watched them enough to truly say one way or the other (sounds like he does pick it up). That still doesn't make up for the rest of the game though and it is why his on/off and defensive stats are so low (defense is the bigger difference for on/off not major change offensively). When you add a defensive player in for him the offense isn't dropping off (slightly better) but the defense clearly improves.

I am not saying you would be better without wade but he also isn't a top 20-25 player anymore either (not a hard choice putting him outside that range). Wade has not been very good overall and a major part of that is his defense through most of the games and his efficiency (whether you define current Wade as washed up or declined it's a very clear drop off). I am not saying it is impossible that he plays better the rest of the way or in the playoffs either, just that so far it hasn't been a very good season for him. All in all I personally think him taking on a lesser role would help him and the team through at least until playoff time (that might just mean a few less minutes so when he is in he can play both ends more effectively or less time with him as focal point). It sounds like based on his speech (which I never heard about and could be misinterpreting based solely off your comment) he seems to think a lesser role where he is fitting into others playing their game would work as well.

Ill answer to your last comment, I also think this is what he was wanting by giving the speech. Since then everyone has been playing great and dragic, deng, and Whiteside have taken their games to the next level and Wades numbers have been better except maybe field goal percentage but he got off to a pretty bad start with that Pacers game he was working the rust off in. It remains to be seen and I'm curious to see how this keeps up but maybe we can bring this up in the future towards the end of the season or in the playoffs if we make it and compare how he's played. Statistically I believe March has always been his best month of the regular season.

naps
03-08-2016, 02:03 AM
Lol no definitely NOT a top 20-25 player. For those box-score watching, he probably seems fine. But Wade has been terrible for them. I have watched a lot of Heat this year, and they are without a doubt a better team when he sits (I just checked his RPM and that confirms my point there. He doesn't even rank among the top 20 SHOOTING GUARDS in the stat, which he rates negatively mostly due to his defense). He has all but given up defensively and is a black hole offensively. Reminds me of a less explosive Monta Ellis on my Dubs. Looking more at his #'s now. 103 offensive rating, .515 TS. Just not a good player.

Just stop. You are embarrassing yourself.

mngopher35
03-08-2016, 02:24 AM
Ill answer to your last comment, I also think this is what he was wanting by giving the speech. Since then everyone has been playing great and dragic, deng, and Whiteside have taken their games to the next level and Wades numbers have been better except maybe field goal percentage but he got off to a pretty bad start with that Pacers game he was working the rust off in. It remains to be seen and I'm curious to see how this keeps up but maybe we can bring this up in the future towards the end of the season or in the playoffs if we make it and compare how he's played. Statistically I believe March has always been his best month of the regular season.

It will be interesting to see and I think that's the right move by him then. I know the raw numbers have been good lately as I used heat players a few times in dfs over the span you mentioned haha (and almost always came through for me above average/expected). I actually would love to see him regain form to an extent even if only for a playoff run to challenge the Cavs. I think it's unlikely anyone beats them but it would definitely add more excitement to the post season if he and the team hit another level.

numba1CHANGsta
03-08-2016, 02:39 AM
Players like Duncan, KG, Pierce, Manu should all retire by seasons end