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JasonJohnHorn
02-28-2016, 01:54 PM
Though it may sound ridiculous on the surface, given that Curry was the MVP last year, there is a case to be made for Curry as the Most Improved Player.


Last year, he averaged 23.8 points per game; this year he is averaging 30.7: a 7 point jump with only about 1 additional minute of playing time.

His 2pt% is up almost 5% (a HUGE jump) from .528 to .571, while his 3pt% is up over 2% (.443 to .468).

He's also getting 1 more rebound per game, and slightly increased his steals. And though his minutes are up, the number of fouls he's committed is not.



If a player on coming off the bench last year had similar improvements and made an All-Star appearance this year, he'd be a lock for MIP. The problem is that Curry was already the best player last year.


Still, it seems like there is a legit case to be made.

Scoots
02-28-2016, 02:02 PM
Also, it's a lot harder to go from 25 to 30 ppg than from 5 to 10 ppg or 15 to 20, so the heights he's reaching should be worth extra credit.

He's not going to get it though. The Warriors having the best season, winning a title last year, MVP last year, likely MVP this year ... He may make the list but I don't think he finishes in the top 3 vote getters.

jerellh528
02-28-2016, 02:28 PM
McCollum rather easily.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-28-2016, 02:39 PM
Not really the premise behind MIP. McCollum.

nastynice
02-28-2016, 03:23 PM
It's crazy that he could even legitimately be brought up as a potential top 5 candidate.

But yea, that boy McCollum, ****in killing it out of absolutely nowhere!! I was thinking damn, if LMA didn't leave, that squad would be tough. They already are as is

valade16
02-28-2016, 03:23 PM
As a Blazers fan I believe Steph Curry is the MIP.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-28-2016, 03:33 PM
Nope. The improvement between Curry last year to this year isn't as big as McCollum.

Curry went from a 90 to a 97 while McColum went from a 60 to an 80.

nastynice
02-28-2016, 03:35 PM
Haha, Stallone!!! He's spreading!!

valade16
02-28-2016, 03:47 PM
And you're a dumbass. The premise is for players that were bench players then that become a star type player.

So you can show me the criteria or rulebook that says that is the purpose of the award then?

TrueFan420
02-28-2016, 03:47 PM
Haha, Stallone!!! He's spreading!!

He's very articulate too. He drops "dumbass" more often than Red from That 70's Show.

IndyRealist
02-28-2016, 04:06 PM
It's crazy that he could even legitimately be brought up as a potential top 5 candidate.

But yea, that boy McCollum, ****in killing it out of absolutely nowhere!! I was thinking damn, if LMA didn't leave, that squad would be tough. They already are as is
If Aldridge stayed I don't think McCollum gets enough touches to get this kind of recognition.

eDush
02-28-2016, 05:05 PM
He's very articulate too. He drops "dumbass" more often than Red from That 70's Show.

Red from That's 70's show :rock:

CHANGO
02-28-2016, 05:07 PM
There is a big difference between a player who already was elite and a player who didn't played for **** during last season and now with playing time is having a great season. That's MIP, Steph shouldn't be that. He's the MVP and that's it.

Sportsguy9695
02-28-2016, 05:10 PM
I think Curry is the MVP hands down by not so sure about MIP. im sure we could find someone else htat is the MIP. I like to see one player one one award. not a guy dominate all the post season awards

eDush
02-28-2016, 05:17 PM
I vote for Patty Mills cause he's playing like a MVP off the bench this year. Steph is for MVP, not MIP.

eDush
02-28-2016, 05:20 PM
Steph was the reason why GS won the ship last year which makes it impossible to win MIP this season :nod:

Scoots
02-28-2016, 05:31 PM
I don't think Curry wins it, but the award should be for improvement per 36 not per game.

People who just look at points per game are taking the most basic look at basketball for a significant award.

sep11ie
02-28-2016, 07:00 PM
Stupid

JasonJohnHorn
02-28-2016, 08:13 PM
McCollum rather easily.

There's a big difference between a dramatic improvement, and getting more minutes/shots.

Last year McCollum was shooting 39% from the arc, and 46% from inside the arc: same percentages this year. His per36 ppg has only gone up five points, not any more than Curry's.

His per36 assists are up, but his steals are down and his rebounds are the same.

McCollum is certainly deserving of consideration, but I do subscribe the the belief that the biggest scoring jump gets the award automatically. Is McCollum better? Or is Portland less deep and therefore giving him more shots? They lost their starting shooting guard and first offensive option. Obviously they are going to give more shots to whoever happens to be left on the roster. That doesn't mean they are playing better.

Curry has improved his game in almost every respect.

JasonJohnHorn
02-28-2016, 08:22 PM
Not really the premise behind MIP. McCollum.

The premise behind MIP is not the most improved player?

McCollum is shooting the same percentages from the floor as he was last year. That's not an improvement; that just a guy getting more minutes because the starter at his position the the team's leading scorer are both gone.

That's not meant to discredit what he's doing, but there is a big difference between a guy who shoots the same percentages as the previous season, and just gets more shots/minutes, and a guy who has significantly improved an already staggeringly amazing percentages and scoring 7 more points a game when only getting one more minute.


I mean... McCollum went from .396 to .399 from the arc, and from .460 to .468 from inside.

Look at what Curry did there. He went from 52% inside the arc (already AMAZING) to 57%. That a 5% increase. He's putting up better percentages than C's who only dunk. And his 3pt shot? Went from 44% to almost 47%. McCollum improve his 3's by 0.3%. Curry did it by 2.5% That is 7 times the improvement over McCollum.

Look at the per36 stats instead of averages. You'll see who the winner is.

JasonJohnHorn
02-28-2016, 08:23 PM
Nope. The improvement between Curry last year to this year isn't as big as McCollum.

Curry went from a 90 to a 97 while McColum went from a 60 to an 80.

If you take a guy who had 4 shots a game, and give him 15, but he hits the same percentages, has he improved? Or has he simply gotten more shots?

Look at the per36 between these two and the jumps in percentages. You'll see who is most deserving of this award.

BKLYNpigeon
02-28-2016, 09:19 PM
Dwyane Wade has 386 Career 3s made.

Curry is on pace for over 400 3s this season.

blahblahyoutoo
02-28-2016, 10:23 PM
Also, it's a lot harder to go from 25 to 30 ppg than from 5 to 10 ppg or 15 to 20, so the heights he's reaching should be worth extra credit.

He's not going to get it though. The Warriors having the best season, winning a title last year, MVP last year, likely MVP this year ... He may make the list but I don't think he finishes in the top 3 vote getters.

agreed.

and i'm willing to bet they will never give MIP and MVP to the same player.

eDush
02-28-2016, 11:25 PM
Mvp > mip

Scoots
03-03-2016, 10:42 AM
Curry is taking 3.2 more shots and less than 1 more FTA per game this year than last year and scoring 6.9 point more per game.

That's 2.16 PPP/108% eFG% on those extra shots. That is possibly the most insane stat I've heard for Steph this year.

To compare to CJ ... he's taking 12.3 more shots and scoring 14 more point per game which is a very healthy scoring rate, but not at the level of improvement Curry is showing ... not close.

JasonJohnHorn
03-03-2016, 11:27 AM
I don't think Curry wins it, but the award should be for improvement per 36 not per game.

People who just look at points per game are taking the most basic look at basketball for a significant award.

Yeah.... this is too true. People see a big jump in points-per-game and think: WOW, that guy's better.

But that player may have simply regressed but happened to be on a team that was in the process of rebuilding.


In actuality, you might have a guy who sees a modest increase, like 4 points (and Curry's 7-point increase is not at all modest), but is perhaps taking the same number of shots, or only 1 more shot a game. His percentages are up across the board, his team is winning more games, and his turnovers-per-possession are way down.

Then you might have somebody who was on a playoff team last year that has gone into lottery/rebuild mode, lost two key players to free agency and have an third on the decline, and then a guy who was riding the pine suddenly gets a starting job. He goes from 4 points a game to 15. Pretty impressive, but his percentages perhaps go down, and his team is winning less games.



The case with Curry and McCollum is not so drastic, but Curry has indeed improved more as a player, and in addition, given that he improved from an already MVP-level of play, makes his improvement all the more impressive. Also, his team was an AMAZING 67 games last year and even the TEAM has improved and is on pace to eclipse that number and set an NBA record.

His personal improvement alone is historic. But coupled with his team's improvement... it's just mind blowing.

McCollum is the run-of-the-mill bench player that got a starting job when somebody left/was traded on a team that is shifting gears. VERY IMPRESSIVE, yes, but not historically impressive the way Curry is.

shep33
03-03-2016, 12:15 PM
Yes, but he's not getting it. CJ will get it, and he's had a phenomenal season

Scoots
03-03-2016, 12:21 PM
Yes, but he's not getting it. CJ will get it, and he's had a phenomenal season

No, CJ has had a good season ... Curry has had a phenomenal season.

eDush
03-03-2016, 12:24 PM
Agreed shep33. CJ will win it as much as I love Steph. Beside MIP sounds funny to me but MVP is something to be proud of.

'Hey everyone, I'm a MIP! :laugh2:

eDush
03-03-2016, 12:31 PM
Your just being a homer Scoots and not impartial when it comes to the Warriors. Like saying Barnes will continue to show improvements when he has top off and will most likely regress once he get his max contract.

KnicksorBust
03-03-2016, 12:46 PM
The premise behind MIP is not the most improved player?

McCollum is shooting the same percentages from the floor as he was last year. That's not an improvement; that just a guy getting more minutes because the starter at his position the the team's leading scorer are both gone.

That's not meant to discredit what he's doing, but there is a big difference between a guy who shoots the same percentages as the previous season, and just gets more shots/minutes, and a guy who has significantly improved an already staggeringly amazing percentages and scoring 7 more points a game when only getting one more minute.


I mean... McCollum went from .396 to .399 from the arc, and from .460 to .468 from inside.

Look at what Curry did there. He went from 52% inside the arc (already AMAZING) to 57%. That a 5% increase. He's putting up better percentages than C's who only dunk. And his 3pt shot? Went from 44% to almost 47%. McCollum improve his 3's by 0.3%. Curry did it by 2.5% That is 7 times the improvement over McCollum.

Look at the per36 stats instead of averages. You'll see who the winner is.

I have said in previous years on this site that seeing improvements from good players to great players should be weighted more heavily than going from bench player to good player. What Curry is doing is going from MVP to possibly the greatest individual season in basketball history. To me that is the most impressive "improvement" I have ever seen. As JJH has illustrated they are not superficial increases. He is significantly better than even last season when he was the MVP.


If you take a guy who had 4 shots a game, and give him 15, but he hits the same percentages, has he improved? Or has he simply gotten more shots?

Look at the per36 between these two and the jumps in percentages. You'll see who is most deserving of this award.

I believe that does merit an improvement. To see such an increase in volume as CJ has with the Blazers and still be essentially the same player from an efficiency standpoint is impressive. He draws more defensive attention and does so much more for the team. It's the type of improvement that the majority of bench players could not sustain and so he deserves full credit for his increase.

That all being said I don't think there is anyway they give it to Steph. :)

KnicksorBust
03-03-2016, 12:49 PM
I don't think Curry wins it, but the award should be for improvement per 36 not per game.

People who just look at points per game are taking the most basic look at basketball for a significant award.

But I also think sampling a 15mpg player and using their per 36 stats isn't fair either. For McCollum to be scoring 3 times as many points having 4 times as many assists and keep his same efficiency numbers is impressive. Don't you agree that the majority of bench players would become exposed trying to handle that much of an increased workload? The fact that he is thriving and the 2nd best player on a vastly overachieving team is an accomplishment for him and probably the reason he ends up with the award.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 01:34 PM
Your just being a homer Scoots and not impartial when it comes to the Warriors. Like saying Barnes will continue to show improvements when he has top off and will most likely regress once he get his max contract.

This has nothing to do with Barnes and I didn't say that. No need to troll.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 01:41 PM
But I also think sampling a 15mpg player and using their per 36 stats isn't fair either. For McCollum to be scoring 3 times as many points having 4 times as many assists and keep his same efficiency numbers is impressive. Don't you agree that the majority of bench players would become exposed trying to handle that much of an increased workload? The fact that he is thriving and the 2nd best player on a vastly overachieving team is an accomplishment for him and probably the reason he ends up with the award.

I totally agree that CJ not just maintaining his per36 numbers but improving on them is VERY impressive, and I've said all along that I think he's going to win the award. But it's really easy to make a case for Curry to win it ... that in and of itself is kind of mind blowing. While a bench player getting more PT and maintaining or even improving is where the award is generally going to go a great player on a great team getting significantly better is even harder to do, and the fact that at the very high usage levels Curry is at now his efficiency has gone up considerably with only 1 more minute and less than 4 more shots per game means to me this is a reasonable debate.

But, CJs probably going to win it anyway because most of the voters are old school and don't really care :)

eDush
03-03-2016, 02:06 PM
Your just being a homer Scoots and not impartial when it comes to the Warriors. Like saying Barnes will continue to show improvements when he has top off and will most likely regress once he get his max contract.

This has nothing to do with Barnes and I didn't say that. No need to troll.

Not sure whether you actually said it or not but you have posted it more than once on the Warriors board this season. You know i don't lie about prior postings but it does show bias on anything involving Warriors as oppose to having an impartial view.

Nothing wrong with that as long as you can admit it Scoots instead of diverting the matter by calling them out as trolls :(.

P.s I'm still waiting for you to respond on the Okafor smoke screen for Love comment you made yesterday.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 02:30 PM
Not sure whether you actually said it or not but you have posted it more than once on the Warriors board this season. You know i don't lie about prior postings but it does show bias on anything involving Warriors as oppose to having an impartial view.

Nothing wrong with that as long as you can admit it Scoots instead of diverting the matter by calling them out as trolls :(.

P.s I'm still waiting for you to respond on the Okafor smoke screen for Love comment you made yesterday.

I don't know that you don't make stuff up ... I assume you do. I didn't say it. Nobody is impartial, but I think I'm totally reasonable and I think most people here would agree with that. I replied about Okafor/Love. None of this belongs in this thread.

tredigs
03-03-2016, 02:32 PM
Bears mentioning that most people who watched some of Portland/McCollum last season thought he would be the front-runner for "Most Improved Player" this year, not because he would need to improve, but because he would have the role to showcase his talent. We had a preseason prediction thread and I'm pretty sure he won it. MIP is essentially the award for the player who is placed into a prominent role and increases their PPG the most. I personally could not tell you who won 9 of the last 10 MIP's without having to look it up and go, "oh yeah".

CHANGO
03-03-2016, 02:59 PM
More minutes doesn't equal efficiency, or better efficiency. ICYMI McCollum is doing exactly that, playing more minutes, averaging more points and being more efficient than last season.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 03:44 PM
More minutes doesn't equal efficiency, or better efficiency. ICYMI McCollum is doing exactly that, playing more minutes, averaging more points and being more efficient than last season.

Absolutely ... but CJs improvement in efficiency is lower than Curry's, and Curry is going from winning the MVP and up which is MUCH harder than going from above average to slightly more above average.

Again ... CJs going to get the award, but arguing Curry deserves it is easy to do.

tredigs
03-03-2016, 05:08 PM
Absolutely ... but CJs improvement in efficiency is lower than Curry's, and Curry is going from winning the MVP and up which is MUCH harder than going from above average to slightly more above average.

Again ... CJs going to get the award, but arguing Curry deserves it is easy to do.

Without a doubt. What CJ is doing happens every year for a handful of players. What Curry is doing may have happened a handful of times period.

McCollum's Orating went from 103 to 107. Curry's went from 122 to 126. McCollum's PER went from 13.1 to 17.6. Curry's went from 28.0 to 32.99 (#1 All Time). McCollum's BPM from -0.7 to 0.4. Curry's 9.9 to 13.3 (#1 All Time). McCollum's WS/48 from .089 to 1.06. Curry's from .288 to .340 (#1 All Time). CJ's TS% from .534 to .537. Curry's from .638 to .685 (#1 All Time for >15 PPG). CJ's RPM from 1.35 to 1.66. Curry's from 9.34 to 10.35 (top 2 for records available).

Long story short, yeah, Curry's case is very strong.

All that said, the MIP voting uses that consistent unsaid criteria that I mentioned: Player who moves into prominent role and has the largest increase increase in PPG (in years where there is no "comeback player of the year", a player coming back and performing well post-injury is also considered).

Gander13SM
03-03-2016, 05:29 PM
I completely agree Curry has improved more than McCollum. However I don't agree with giving him MIP.

Purely because I don't think you can follow up an MVP year with winning MIP. Regardless of how much you improved. He could be shooting 60% from deep and averaging 45 ppg. I still wouldn't condone it.

MIP should be for guys who went from looking like borderline scrubs to being competent starters or even just really high caliber role players.

But hey, that's just me.

Gander13SM
03-03-2016, 05:31 PM
That being said, remember when we were arguing who was better between Harden and Steph last year? The fact SOME people are now legitimately arguing between Steph vs everyone post MJ (Kobe,LeBron) is crazy. I've never seen that sort of leap in a single year.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 06:47 PM
I completely agree Curry has improved more than McCollum. However I don't agree with giving him MIP.

Purely because I don't think you can follow up an MVP year with winning MIP. Regardless of how much you improved. He could be shooting 60% from deep and averaging 45 ppg. I still wouldn't condone it.

MIP should be for guys who went from looking like borderline scrubs to being competent starters or even just really high caliber role players.

But hey, that's just me.

I don't think anybody here actually thinks Curry is going to win it let alone should. It's just an interesting conversation.

Also should be in the conversation is Barton, Dray Green, Kawhi, Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond ... but it's most likely CJ.

The fact that Portland is now winning just means it's even more likely to go to CJ.

One interesting note on more play and more usage usually results in slightly worse efficiency. Dame's scoring more and a little more in assists but for the most part is playing worse this year than last year with a usage going from 26.9 to 31.5.

citycobra
03-03-2016, 08:33 PM
Yea nobody is going to analyze basketball like this who has anything to with the award. It's about playing basketball. Not being a nerd.

tredigs
03-03-2016, 08:36 PM
Can already tell 3 posts in citycobra is going to offer this forum great insight.



...in the 11 posts before he is banned (most likely, again).

citycobra
03-03-2016, 08:39 PM
Can already tell 3 posts in citycobra is going to offer this forum great insight.



...in the 11 posts before he is banned (most likely, again).

You feel good now? Just watch the games. Curry for MIP is dumb. Give it to somebody else.

tredigs
03-03-2016, 08:45 PM
You feel good now? Just watch the games. Curry for MIP is dumb. Give it to somebody else.

Nothing about your comment makes sense. I watch the games (and know the #'s). He visually looks like the most improved player in the game. I also don't think he should or will win MIP. It's not an award for MVP's. It's an award for the largest points-per-game increase.

Scoots
03-03-2016, 08:56 PM
Nothing about your comment makes sense. I watch the games (and know the #'s). He visually looks like the most improved player in the game. I also don't think he should or will win MIP. It's not an award for MVP's. It's an award for the largest points-per-game increase.

I hope he's not long for the board.

Vincent33
03-03-2016, 09:27 PM
Curry's about to join a list that only includes Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Nash, Duncan and James to win back to back MVPs. Seems like he's above MIP discussion.

CHANGO
03-03-2016, 10:02 PM
Absolutely ... but CJs improvement in efficiency is lower than Curry's, and Curry is going from winning the MVP and up which is MUCH harder than going from above average to slightly more above average.

Again ... CJs going to get the award, but arguing Curry deserves it is easy to do.

I actually don't disagree with the premise of Curry deserving the Most Improved Award, but the reality is that, the MIP isn't that, it's the award for the player who was bad, good without opportunity or below average, and somehow is playing significantly better right now.

This is like the usual debate with the MVP award, it is the most valuable player to his team?
It is the best player on the league?
It is the best player who also plays on the best team?
It is the best player who is playing on a ****** team? etc... etc...

Kush McDaniels
03-03-2016, 10:29 PM
What is the cause of Curry's improvement this season? It's a pretty significant jump from last season, but usually you don't see a MVP's numbers improve that much. There's no way it's from simply working his *** off in the offseason (he always does). Is it the team gelling better, resulting in greater scoring efficiency (Draymond is having a career year too)? Is the west/entire league worse this season? A mix of everything?

Scoots
03-03-2016, 10:46 PM
What is the cause of Curry's improvement this season? It's a pretty significant jump from last season, but usually you don't see a MVP's numbers improve that much. There's no way it's from simply working his *** off in the offseason (he always does). Is it the team gelling better, resulting in greater scoring efficiency (Draymond is having a career year too)? Is the west/entire league worse this season? A mix of everything?
A big chunk is confidence, the second part is Luke Walton letting the team really rip to start the season, third is a 2nd year in the offense.

tredigs
03-04-2016, 05:10 AM
A big chunk is confidence, the second part is Luke Walton letting the team really rip to start the season, third is a 2nd year in the offense.

All true.

I would add - 4th - they came in angry at the shade that was thrown at them. This team came out to prove a point to everyone who took shots at them + doubted them, and Curry is spearheading that mission. He was not chosen as the "Peoples Choice" MVP and was projected as the 5th most likely to win the MVP in the preseason. The Warriors were projected 3rd behind the Cavs and the Spurs in the preseason. The Warriors know this stuff, and it fueled them.

kdspurman
03-04-2016, 09:01 AM
All true.

I would add - 4th - they came in angry at the shade that was thrown at them. This team came out to prove a point to everyone who took shots at them + doubted them, and Curry is spearheading that mission. He was not chosen as the "Peoples Choice" MVP and was projected as the 5th most likely to win the MVP in the preseason. The Warriors were projected 3rd behind the Cavs and the Spurs in the preseason. The Warriors know this stuff, and it fueled them.

Where were they projected behind the spurs/Cavs anywhere? I don't recall that.

Scoots
03-04-2016, 09:39 AM
Where were they projected behind the spurs/Cavs anywhere? I don't recall that.
I think GMs poll.

tredigs
03-04-2016, 03:19 PM
Where were they projected behind the spurs/Cavs anywhere? I don't recall that.


I think GMs poll.
Yeah, both the GM's poll and in the Vegas/worldwide preseason odds. Was not until the 10-0+ start that opinions and official odds began to shift.

tredigs
03-04-2016, 03:29 PM
GM's poll:

PREDICTIONS:

> Which team will win the 2016 NBA Finals?

1. Cleveland -- 53.6%
2. San Antonio -- 25.0%
3. Golden State -- 17.9%
4. Oklahoma City -- 3.6%

Last year: San Antonio -- 46.2%

> Who will win the 2015-16 MVP?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland -- 39.3%
2. Anthony Davis, New Orleans -- 25.0%
3. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 10.7%
4. James Harden, Houston -- 10.7%
5. Tie: Stephen Curry, Golden State -- 7.1%
Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 7.1%

Last year: LeBron James -- 67.9%

> If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?

1. Anthony Davis, New Orleans -- 86.2%
2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 6.9%
LeBron James, Cleveland -- 6.9%

The GM's also said this lol:

> What was the most underrated player acquisition?

1. Ty Lawson, Houston -- 10.3%
Paul Pierce, L.A. Clippers -- 10.3%
David West, San Antonio -- 10.3%
Last year: LeBron James -- 50.0%

http://www.nba.com/news/features/john_schuhmann/nba-com-2015-16-gm-survey/

Vegas Odds:

2016 NBA Champion Odds
(odds updated 10/28/15)

Cleveland Cavaliers 14/5
San Antonio Spurs 4/1
Golden State Warriors 5/1
Oklahoma City Thunder 8/1
Los Angeles Clippers 13/1

http://www.betvega.com/odds-to-win-nba-championship/

So, along with all the other player comments, you can probably see why they had a chip on their shoulder. Now the doubt is coming from legends who are coming out of the woodwork to throw shade. It's natural, and I actually think they've taken to it. But, it is definitely fueling them.

Jay 20
03-04-2016, 03:45 PM
I understand the logic behind this because Curry has improved...alot. But I do not think it will happen.

I'd say McCollum if I had to chose someone. Guy averaged like 6 a game last year and now he's 20+

Jay 20
03-04-2016, 03:49 PM
So, along with all the other player comments, you can probably see why they had a chip on their shoulder. Now the doubt is coming from legends who are coming out of the woodwork to throw shade. It's natural, and I actually think they've taken to it. But, it is definitely fueling them.

Also, didn't the players vote James Harden as MVP over Curry? I completely agree the Warriors had a chip on their shoulder and so did Steph.

They also had to hear all summer how the Cavs weren't at full strength and they faced teams throughout the whole playoffs who weren't full strength.

JasonJohnHorn
03-05-2016, 12:19 AM
Curry's about to join a list that only includes Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Nash, Duncan and James to win back to back MVPs. Seems like he's above MIP discussion.

I fail to see the logic behind that.

So Curry can either join a club that 10 people are in, or be the only member in a club who manage to play at an MVP level one year, and then improved his game so much that he not only won MVP again, but ALSO won MIP?


So... yeah.. you think he's 'above' a conversation that would mean he accomplished something that has never been done before, yet he's not above a conversation that would put him in a club 10 guys are already members of?


Right. That makes sense.

Gander13SM
03-05-2016, 12:42 AM
All true.

I would add - 4th - they came in angry at the shade that was thrown at them. This team came out to prove a point to everyone who took shots at them + doubted them, and Curry is spearheading that mission. He was not chosen as the "Peoples Choice" MVP and was projected as the 5th most likely to win the MVP in the preseason. The Warriors were projected 3rd behind the Cavs and the Spurs in the preseason. The Warriors know this stuff, and it fueled them.

They've been playing very angry, it's funny but I think this year is the first year I can think of where I've seen Steph play like he's the best and he knows he is, as odd as that sounds.

During one of the Cavs games LeBron shoved Steph to the floor and on the following play Steph shoved LeBron down and splashed a shot right over him. He ran rings around KD last night and had Kawhi leaning a few times during that first Spurs game. He's gone right at every single "great" in the league right now and he's burned every damn one of them.

Combine that with Dray being even louder than before. Kerr "throwing shade" (hate that term) at some of the greats (Big O most recently) even in a tongue-n-cheek sort of way. Bogut telling people he's getting his championship ring fitted for his middle finger so they can kiss that one. Then the Fat Jimmy tweets.

Honestly, the crap people were saying about Curry not deserving MVP, Warriors getting lucky and even now all the hate about how they couldn't do what they're doing against *enter arbitrary historical team here* ...it's clearly fueled them.

That fuel has made them so confident it borders on arrogance a lot of the time... but that's okay, you're allowed to be arrogant when you're the best.

I just hope they can cap it off with another ring. Otherwise...

Vincent33
03-05-2016, 01:58 AM
I fail to see the logic behind that.

So Curry can either join a club that 10 people are in, or be the only member in a club who manage to play at an MVP level one year, and then improved his game so much that he not only won MVP again, but ALSO won MIP?


So... yeah.. you think he's 'above' a conversation that would mean he accomplished something that has never been done before, yet he's not above a conversation that would put him in a club 10 guys are already members of?


Right. That makes sense.

Or you could look at it as Curry would be joining a list that 9 of the top 10 who have ever played the game have accomplished. That's quite the compliment. He could win both awards and still be a part of that list, but you make it seem like 'oh there's already 10 guys that have done it...big deal nobody has won MVP and MIP'. I mean 9 of those players are the greatest in the history of the game. Historically the MIP has been given to players that were below what Steph has already accomplished. High profile names like McGrady, Love, George have won either after wanting to be the #1 guy like McGrady, having an increased role after the #1 guy left like Love after Jefferson was traded or when a player makes such a grand leap like George did and like last year's winner did with Butler.

Curry should obviously be a part of the conversation sure, but he became the most popular and arguably best player during last season already. Perhaps because what he is doing this year is just something so unbelievable like only something you could do in a video game that I just can't see him winning MIP as well, doesn't seem like he fits the description with where the past winners were in their careers as he's already surpassed that.

Scoots
03-05-2016, 12:15 PM
It's about the narrative. Curry finishing in the top 5 in MIP voting will just be part of the story. I have always sort of felt that MIP was a bit of a back handed compliment to players who just got to start ... like, we're going to give you this award because it took you this long to work your way up to starting in the NBA. That said, if CJ doesn't win it that would kind of suck for him too because he's had a great season.

eDush
03-05-2016, 06:09 PM
It's about the narrative. Curry finishing in the top 5 in MIP voting will just be part of the story. I have always sort of felt that MIP was a bit of a back handed compliment to players who just got to start ... like, we're going to give you this award because it took you this long to work your way up to starting in the NBA. That said, if CJ doesn't win it that would kind of suck for him too because he's had a great season.

I agree and hope CJ wins it too. Beside it should also be contributions to the team from one year to another which he beats Curry on especially since no one gave the Blazers a chance to make the playoffs this season while GS was number 2 to win it all again :clap:

JasonJohnHorn
03-05-2016, 07:45 PM
Or you could look at it as Curry would be joining a list that 9 of the top 10 who have ever played the game have accomplished. That's quite the compliment. He could win both awards and still be a part of that list, but you make it seem like 'oh there's already 10 guys that have done it...big deal nobody has won MVP and MIP'. I mean 9 of those players are the greatest in the history of the game. Historically the MIP has been given to players that were below what Steph has already accomplished. High profile names like McGrady, Love, George have won either after wanting to be the #1 guy like McGrady, having an increased role after the #1 guy left like Love after Jefferson was traded or when a player makes such a grand leap like George did and like last year's winner did with Butler.

Curry should obviously be a part of the conversation sure, but he became the most popular and arguably best player during last season already. Perhaps because what he is doing this year is just something so unbelievable like only something you could do in a video game that I just can't see him winning MIP as well, doesn't seem like he fits the description with where the past winners were in their careers as he's already surpassed that.


What is more impressive: setting a new standard and doing something that has never been done before, or doing something that has been done by 10 other guys?


Sure, back-to-back MVP awards is amazing. A rare accomplishment. I'm not being dismissive of that. You are being dismissive of the MIP award. For a guy to WIN MVP, and then IMPROVE SO MUCH that he he not only locks the MVP award the next season, but ALSO locks in the MIP? That is something that has never been accomplished ever.

eDush
03-05-2016, 08:01 PM
True but I will never ever post on this thread again if CJ doesn't win MIP! He so deserves it.

Scoots
03-06-2016, 12:59 AM
In December people were saying Curry couldn't keep up the pace. He finished February averaging 36.7ppg, 55% shooting, 54% from 3, 7.3 assists, 5.8 rebounds and 1.9 steals.

He's STILL improving.

Corey
03-06-2016, 01:13 AM
In December people were saying Curry couldn't keep up the pace. He finished February averaging 36.7ppg, 55% shooting, 54% from 3, 7.3 assists, 5.8 rebounds and 1.9 steals.

He's STILL improving.

It's going to continue.

There's no right way to defend him with the supporting cast he has.

Laker Legend42
03-07-2016, 11:22 AM
When jasonjohnhorn started this he said "a case could be made for steph" then gave reasons why he felt that way. It's just like all the other awards such as coach and executive of the year normally don't go to top tier organizations. You could make a case for Pop almost every year. Just like this year you could also make a case for R.C Buford but Portland might sweep both of those awards.

JasonJohnHorn
03-07-2016, 05:53 PM
When jasonjohnhorn started this he said "a case could be made for steph" then gave reasons why he felt that way. It's just like all the other awards such as coach and executive of the year normally don't go to top tier organizations. You could make a case for Pop almost every year. Just like this year you could also make a case for R.C Buford but Portland might sweep both of those awards.

For me, this is more than simply being a 'case'. I could make a case for LBJ as MVP this year; he's got zero All-Stars on his team: the Warriors have three. Still, I'd vote for Curry. I could make a case for Pop as COY: they have the second best record in the league, and the only team that's better had two coaches.


But when it comes to MIP, I don't think there is a case for another player unless you rely on raw stats: points per game. But anybody who knows anything about stats knows that a raw stat like points per game is utterly useless without context.

When you actually look at the context, when you look at percentages and per36, it's pretty clear who the most improved player in the league is, and it's last season's MVP.


Yes... I will gladly concede that this is not entirely quantifiable. But somebody who gets given more shots because the starter booked a ticket out of town isn't 'improved'; he's just given more shots.


Look at the percentages Curry posted last year, and then look at those he posted this year. Look at the points per36. Look at points-per-shot.


That is where you will see the real scope of improvement.

Laker Legend42
03-08-2016, 12:02 AM
For me, this is more than simply being a 'case'. I could make a case for LBJ as MVP this year; he's got zero All-Stars on his team: the Warriors have three. Still, I'd vote for Curry. I could make a case for Pop as COY: they have the second best record in the league, and the only team that's better had two coaches.


But when it comes to MIP, I don't think there is a case for another player unless you rely on raw stats: points per game. But anybody who knows anything about stats knows that a raw stat like points per game is utterly useless without context.

When you actually look at the context, when you look at percentages and per36, it's pretty clear who the most improved player in the league is, and it's last season's MVP.


Yes... I will gladly concede that this is not entirely quantifiable. But somebody who gets given more shots because the starter booked a ticket out of town isn't 'improved'; he's just given more shots.


Look at the percentages Curry posted last year, and then look at those he posted this year. Look at the points per36. Look at points-per-shot.


That is where you will see the real scope of improvement.
Wait... I was supporting your point. I wasn't opposing anything you said. My point was when these awards are voted on voters look basically from the bottom up. I think success excludes you from these awards. So just to be clear my other post was directed at response from other posters.

valade16
03-08-2016, 10:59 AM
For me, this is more than simply being a 'case'. I could make a case for LBJ as MVP this year; he's got zero All-Stars on his team: the Warriors have three. Still, I'd vote for Curry. I could make a case for Pop as COY: they have the second best record in the league, and the only team that's better had two coaches.

But when it comes to MIP, I don't think there is a case for another player unless you rely on raw stats: points per game. But anybody who knows anything about stats knows that a raw stat like points per game is utterly useless without context.

When you actually look at the context, when you look at percentages and per36, it's pretty clear who the most improved player in the league is, and it's last season's MVP.

Yes... I will gladly concede that this is not entirely quantifiable. But somebody who gets given more shots because the starter booked a ticket out of town isn't 'improved'; he's just given more shots.

Look at the percentages Curry posted last year, and then look at those he posted this year. Look at the points per36. Look at points-per-shot.

That is where you will see the real scope of improvement.

But these are generalities and they are simply not true when talking about McCollum. He didn't simply just get more shots, he improved his Per36 numbers as well:

His PPG Per 36 went from 15.7 to 21.5. His APG Per 36 went from 2.4 to 4.4. He improved his FG% from 43.6% to 44.7%. He improved his 3PT% from 39.6% to 44.7%. This is despite his Usage rate going from 20 to 27%.

You can argue that Curry improved his stats by more than McCollum, but people need to quit acting like McCollum has shown zero improvement and simply 'got more shots'. Because it isn't true.

Scoots
03-08-2016, 11:20 AM
But these are generalities and they are simply not true when talking about McCollum. He didn't simply just get more shots, he improved his Per36 numbers as well:

His PPG Per 36 went from 15.7 to 21.5. His APG Per 36 went from 2.4 to 4.4. He improved his FG% from 43.6% to 44.7%. He improved his 3PT% from 39.6% to 44.7%. This is despite his Usage rate going from 20 to 27%.

You can argue that Curry improved his stats by more than McCollum, but people need to quit acting like McCollum has shown zero improvement and simply 'got more shots'. Because it isn't true.

I think most of the thread is that CJ deserves the award, but that Curry deserves it more. Not that CJ "just" got more minutes.

valade16
03-08-2016, 11:23 AM
I think most of the thread is that CJ deserves the award, but that Curry deserves it more. Not that CJ "just" got more minutes.

I was speaking directly to JJH. He may have just been talking in generalities and not specifically about this season.

As I said previously, I think CJ will win it because of who they tend to vote for these awards, but if I were voting, I would vote for Curry.

Scoots
03-08-2016, 12:24 PM
I was speaking directly to JJH. He may have just been talking in generalities and not specifically about this season.

As I said previously, I think CJ will win it because of who they tend to vote for these awards, but if I were voting, I would vote for Curry.

NP. I was taking the "but people need to quit acting like McCollum has shown zero improvement" to mean more than just one poster.

CJs improvement is a bit of a problem for the Blazers actually. He's a restricted free agent after next season which means he can be re-signed this offseason and those will not be easy negotiations for Portland. Add to that Lillard is a free agent as is most of the team. IIRC McCollum's only signed teammates for next year are Ed Davis, Vonleh, and Mason Plumlee. So not only does the team have to pony up MAX money for Lillard, they may have to for McCollum too, AND they need to build a team around them ... again ... all while paying Varejao $9M for next year too.

valade16
03-08-2016, 12:36 PM
NP. I was taking the "but people need to quit acting like McCollum has shown zero improvement" to mean more than just one poster.

CJs improvement is a bit of a problem for the Blazers actually. He's a restricted free agent after next season which means he can be re-signed this offseason and those will not be easy negotiations for Portland. Add to that Lillard is a free agent as is most of the team. IIRC McCollum's only signed teammates for next year are Ed Davis, Vonleh, and Mason Plumlee. So not only does the team have to pony up MAX money for Lillard, they may have to for McCollum too, AND they need to build a team around them ... again ... all while paying Varejao $9M for next year too.

Well you should have taken it that way because the way I phrased it that's exactly what it sounded like, so that was my bad :laugh2:

From what I've heard the Blazers got 'sticker shock' when they saw Meyers Leonard's contract demands for this off-season, so he's likely gone. I think we have plenty of money under the cap to keep both Lillard and McCollum, but you're right, we have to amass the rest of the talent around them before their costs make it prohibitive to do so.

Scoots
03-08-2016, 01:03 PM
From what I've heard the Blazers got 'sticker shock' when they saw Meyers Leonard's contract demands for this off-season, so he's likely gone. I think we have plenty of money under the cap to keep both Lillard and McCollum, but you're right, we have to amass the rest of the talent around them before their costs make it prohibitive to do so.

I like Davis, Vonleh, and Plumlee as players ... but there is a LOT of work to do to field a team worthy of Lillard/McCollum and this is not the market to be buying. They can put off McCollum's contract for another year with some risk of alienating him and having to pay him even more money under an even higher cap. IIRC they have no draft picks this year (assuming they make the playoffs) so building a young quality team is going to be nearly impossible this offseason. I hope the Blazers don't implode like the Suns ... I really like my home town boy Dame.