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-Kobe24-TJ19-
02-25-2016, 12:43 PM
Why are they losing so much games? Fisher is finally gone and now its time to make a run for the playoffs but seems like they just dont want to win.

Their starting 5 is decent, awful bench though.

Porz
Melo
Lopez
Afflalo
Calderon

Imo Boston and Indiana are doing much better with less talent.

ewing
02-25-2016, 12:52 PM
i think you are overrating our talent but we are under performing. The team seems to have fallen apart since Melo hurt his knee. I think they were a game above 500 before that injury and have won 1 game since. Anyway, going into the season i knew that this team needed a very good Melo to be good. While Melo has brought in and brings good effort, 21 a night on 42 from the floor, 34 from 3, and 18 attempts just isn't cutting it. I also think Fisher lost the team to a degree and they are not quite sure what to do now. At the start of the season they played at a slower pace and seemed to bit robotic on offensive but they controlled tempo and were better defensively. Now things are more open however there transition D is awful and they aren't as good defending the 3 etc.

Hawkeye15
02-25-2016, 12:55 PM
well Porz is a rookie, even the best ones rarely contribute to the winning column. Melo hurt his leg I believe, and the other 3 mentioned are nice players, but nothing that can help lead a roster to wins. The talent is so so, they do have a great rookie, but still need to add more pieces. I would have thought moving Melo for future pieces was a good decision, but whatever.

LanceUpperCut
02-25-2016, 12:57 PM
Nothing their as good as the Raptors.

All jokes aside, they shouldn't of given Melo an extension or traded him. They keep doing these re-shuffles trying to make a quick fix well Melo is still here. I get they have no pick this season but why not give guys like Grant more minutes or fire a head coach mid way through when I actually thought they were overachieving.

Tony_Starks
02-25-2016, 12:58 PM
-Bad coaching

-Melo declining

- questionable surrounding talent

- questionable management, should've made some sort of trades at the decline.

- no clear direction.

mudvayne387
02-25-2016, 01:06 PM
#1: Carmelo Anthony is not the type of player you build your team around.
#2: Trading for Anthony instead of waiting to sign him in free agency doomed their short term future.
#3: Derek Fisher was not the right coach to hire for the "renaissance"
#4: Knick fans are very impatient and fail to realize that you don't go from having the 2nd worst record in the NBA to title contender over night.
#5: Trading Anthony and bringing in younger more talented secondary players is the only way (short of hitting the F/A lottery) that the Knicks will be relevant again short term.

Essentially, they overachieved for the first 1/3 of the season giving everyone a false sense of just how much better they were. Yes they are improved, but it was easy to see that players were playing over their heads, and sooner or later the poor coaching and lack of talent would bring them down to earth.

pebloemer
02-25-2016, 01:17 PM
-Bad coaching

-Melo declining

- questionable surrounding talent

- questionable management, should've made some sort of trades at the decline.

- no clear direction.

The type of trade they need is probably easier to to make in the off-season IMO.

shep33
02-25-2016, 01:21 PM
I was a huge fan of Melo in Denver. I thought he just fit perfectly with that squad, and realistically, if they get by the Lakers in 2009, I think they win the title that year. We'd be thinking of Melo in a completely different light.

Melo in NYC isn't working because the players around him don't fit. I know he didn't like him, but George Karl was the best thing that happened to Melo from a coaching standpoint.

They need to dump Melo. Aging, declining, he needs to be a 2nd star on a good team to have a shot. Maybe even 3rd. Time and injury/wear and tear have hurt his career in NYC.

aman_13
02-25-2016, 01:21 PM
They need to trade Melo.

Tony_Starks
02-25-2016, 01:25 PM
The type of trade they need is probably easier to to make in the off-season IMO.

Perhaps, but they could've made some sort of moves. If you look at players like Markief Morris or Tobias from Orlando they were basically give always.

Atlanta was open for business.

Philly can always be pilfered for tanking purposes.

Something could've been done.

GiantsSwaGG
02-25-2016, 01:29 PM
Melo

DboneG
02-25-2016, 01:36 PM
Melo started to play unselfish ball and the Knicks were doing well! Only to see Kristaps Porzingis hit a wall. Guys figured out how to play him. Getting physical with him, so, you see him at the top of the key a lot. Kristaps don't have a NBA type body. That's a big concern. He's 7'3" and very skinny, the grind of the NBA is wearing on him. Let's hope he doesn’t grow any more. Langston Galloway was key in a lot of victories...note: when the Knicks won, Langston had good games. He fell off also. Last: A big concern! The Knicks point guard play. YOU GOT TO HAVE A GUY THAT CAN GET YOU EASY BASKETS. Knicks don't have that. They need a point guard bad!

DboneG
02-25-2016, 01:49 PM
Kristaps Porzingis got 2 rebounds last game and shot seven 3's! Indiana beat them on the boards. Game before that Kristaps Porzingis got 2 as in TWO rebounds and shot six 3's and they got blew-out at home against Toronto. I don't know if any of you guys played ball...but, all that bangin' takes it's toll. There are times you are so sore, you can't hardly move. Again they got beat on the boards.

DboneG
02-25-2016, 01:58 PM
Jose Calderon as your starting point guard?! Are you kidding me! He's a good ball player...but, not as my starting point guard. I'd get him to back up someone else, that way it strengthens the bench.

kobe4thewinbang
02-25-2016, 01:59 PM
Knicks are adjusting from the Fisher debacle. They had a good run early on as KP showed his potential and Melo matched it with his clutch play, but if Melo's injured that is going to hurt the team since he's usually their leading scorer and KP is still raw despite some bright nights. Those two need to play well enough to win a game and the bench has to help too. They don't have the best bench or even a B+ bench right now and defense isn't the best either.

kobe4thewinbang
02-25-2016, 02:03 PM
Perhaps, but they could've made some sort of moves. If you look at players like Markief Morris or Tobias from Orlando they were basically give always.

Atlanta was open for business.

Philly can always be pilfered for tanking purposes.

Something could've been done.I dunno what Phil was thinking. I wonder if he's going to abandon the hope of using the triangle. All in for free agency and cap space I guess. Trades would've helped. Their roster is much better than last year's, but it's still a C grade roster. I think they may be upset that Rondo basically said he's not becoming a Knick.

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 02:12 PM
Your best player statistically is Jose Calderon. Think about that.

Melo has been pretty good by Melo standards, but he's not Kevin Durant or Lebron.

Robin Lopez has also been pretty good, but Porzingas is a rookie, and Affalo only seems to play well in contract years. And admittedly your bench sucks.

Boston and Indiana have more talent and are deeper, with less name recognition. And they are better coached.

Beltrans Mole
02-25-2016, 02:45 PM
1. Melo needs to be moved
2. Calderon is facing a new PG every single night that is simply better and more athletic...that's a HUGE concern
3. Afflalo is a solid vet but is too old and slow now to keep up with premiere players on the defensive end
4. KP hit a bit of a rookie wall, as expected
5. The Knicks stopped moving the ball...they were better early on when the ball movement was great

ewing
02-25-2016, 02:49 PM
Your best player statistically is Jose Calderon. Think about that.

Melo has been pretty good by Melo standards, but he's not Kevin Durant or Lebron.

Robin Lopez has also been pretty good, but Porzingas is a rookie, and Affalo only seems to play well in contract years. And admittedly your bench sucks.

Boston and Indiana have more talent and are deeper, with less name recognition. And they are better coached.

Do you look at any stats other then ts%? Jose is averaging 7 and 4 in a little under 30 mins a night and almost all the teams best 4 and 5 man units include Galloway at the point. Plus he is an awful defender

Alayla
02-25-2016, 02:58 PM
Perhaps, but they could've made some sort of moves. If you look at players like Markief Morris or Tobias from Orlando they were basically give always.

Atlanta was open for business.

Philly can always be pilfered for tanking purposes.

Something could've been done.

Name one time that's happened period? It can be argued that Philly has won every trade since Hinkie i dont recall even once we have be "Pilfered".

Chronz
02-25-2016, 03:08 PM
The sad truth is that despite the flashy name additions and early season hype, they are still a 1 man team with alot of guys who would have helped them more 2-3 years ago. As it is, its a group of has beens and their lone bright spot that made them a playoff contender has hit the rookie wall. Hes been really inefficient the last 18 games or so, Melo is playing team ball but the load hasnt lessened on him. They have no true 2-way guy except for Rolo and he prolly doesnt count. Their most efficient guy offensively is a turnstile defensively.

Best thing for them is to tank the year, they need more talent but they will eventually start competing and KP cant be this inefficient forever.

Chronz
02-25-2016, 03:11 PM
Name one time that's happened period? It can be argued that Philly has won every trade since Hinkie i dont recall even once we have be "Pilfered".

Its a really odd thing to say unless he thinks MCW has improved the teams hes joined.NY lacks the assets to even talk to the Sixers.

ewing
02-25-2016, 03:24 PM
The sad truth is that despite the flashy name additions and early season hype, they are still a 1 man team with alot of guys who would have helped them more 2-3 years ago. As it is, its a group of has beens and their lone bright spot that made them a playoff contender has hit the rookie wall. Hes been really inefficient the last 18 games or so, Melo is playing team ball but the load hasnt lessened on him. They have no true 2-way guy except for Rolo and he prolly doesnt count. Their most efficient guy offensively is a turnstile defensively.

Best thing for them is to tank the year, they need more talent but they will eventually start competing and KP cant be this inefficient forever.

I don't think the names are very flashy. I do get your drift though. Melo is on the down turn and AA and Jose have both seen better days. AA is the biggest disappointment to me. I was always a fan seeing this guy every night make you realize he is chucker, that doesn't move the ball, and not a good decision maker at all. He does have nice post game for a guard and can hit some Js but....

KnicksorBust
02-25-2016, 03:30 PM
Honestly if they just improved their offense and defense they can still turn it around.

ewing
02-25-2016, 03:31 PM
^^^^

smood999
02-25-2016, 03:44 PM
Your best player statistically is Jose Calderon. Think about that.

Melo has been pretty good by Melo standards, but he's not Kevin Durant or Lebron.

Robin Lopez has also been pretty good, but Porzingas is a rookie, and Affalo only seems to play well in contract years. And admittedly your bench sucks.

Boston and Indiana have more talent and are deeper, with less name recognition. And they are better coached.


-Bad coaching

-Melo declining

- questionable surrounding talent

- questionable management, should've made some sort of trades at the decline.

- no clear direction.


The sad truth is that despite the flashy name additions and early season hype, they are still a 1 man team with alot of guys who would have helped them more 2-3 years ago. As it is, its a group of has beens and their lone bright spot that made them a playoff contender has hit the rookie wall. Hes been really inefficient the last 18 games or so, Melo is playing team ball but the load hasnt lessened on him. They have no true 2-way guy except for Rolo and he prolly doesnt count. Their most efficient guy offensively is a turnstile defensively.

Best thing for them is to tank the year, they need more talent but they will eventually start competing and KP cant be this inefficient forever.

All of this except the should've done something at the trade deadline. They don't have any assets to do anything.

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 03:44 PM
Do you look at any stats other then ts%? Jose is averaging 7 and 4 in a little under 30 mins a night and almost all the teams best 4 and 5 man units include Galloway at the point. Plus he is an awful defender

Per minute Galloway isn't more productive than Calderon. Per game stats horrible blah blah, you've heard it from me before. Usage curve has proven to be a myth, and Galloway only takes about 1 shot every 16 mins played more than Jose anyway, so they're both essentially low usage. And yes, Calderon is better inside the arc, outside the arc, and at the line. Galloway is a better rebounder. Calderon is 5th in def winshares for the knicks, and Galloway 4th, but since the Knicks are 22nd in Drtg I don't think that's much of an issue. There's more blame to go around than credit.

smood999
02-25-2016, 03:47 PM
I don't think the names are very flashy. I do get your drift though. Melo is on the down turn and AA and Jose have both seen better days. AA is the biggest disappointment to me. I was always a fan seeing this guy every night make you realize he is chucker, that doesn't move the ball, and not a good decision maker at all. He does have nice post game for a guard and can hit some Js but....

Flashy might have been the wrong word. I think what he's referring to is name recognition, not the sexiness of the name...especially in comparison to other teams such as the Celtics and Pacers. It's why a lot of Knicks fans think the team has more talent than teams like Charlotte, Boston and Indiana. They just don't know who those players are and that's a horrible reason to assume they're less talented.

ewing
02-25-2016, 03:49 PM
Per minute Galloway isn't more productive than Calderon. Per game stats horrible blah blah, you've heard it from me before. Usage curve has proven to be a myth, and Galloway only takes about 1 shot every 16 mins played more than Jose anyway, so they're both essentially low usage. And yes, Calderon is better inside the arc, outside the arc, and at the line. Galloway is a better rebounder. Calderon is 5th in def winshares for the knicks, and Galloway 4th, but since the Knicks are 22nd in Drtg I don't think that's much of an issue. There's more blame to go around than credit.

Yeah neither are statically the teams best player. Did you base Jose being statically the team best player on anything other then TS%? If so, i'd like to know what nonsense you are looking at and how it makes him statically the teams best player

KnicksorBust
02-25-2016, 04:07 PM
Per minute Galloway isn't more productive than Calderon. Per game stats horrible blah blah, you've heard it from me before. Usage curve has proven to be a myth, and Galloway only takes about 1 shot every 16 mins played more than Jose anyway, so they're both essentially low usage. And yes, Calderon is better inside the arc, outside the arc, and at the line. Galloway is a better rebounder. Calderon is 5th in def winshares for the knicks, and Galloway 4th, but since the Knicks are 22nd in Drtg I don't think that's much of an issue. There's more blame to go around than credit.

Honestly I was excited when we got Calderon last year and he has been a huge disappointment. I'm as big a TS% fan as any and I quote it excessively but let me tell you a handful of 3's at 40% during the week keeps the TS% but isn't winning the Knicks games. He stinks on defense and a combination of his age and the Knicks system has killed his value as a playmaker.

ManningToTyree
02-25-2016, 04:16 PM
I don't care what the advanced stats say Calderon in no way helps this team. He's a liability

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 04:25 PM
Yeah neither are statically the teams best player. Did you base Jose being statically the team best player on anything other then TS%? If so, i'd like to know what nonsense you are looking at and how it makes him statically the teams best player

What are you looking at, exactly? Calderon is 51% on 2s, 41% on 3s, 89% on FTs, over 7:2 ast:to, and +6 net rtg (the next highest among player >1000 min is Robin Lopez at +5).

So if it's not Jose, who is it? What are you using to judge besides ppg and disgust with Calderon?

bucketss
02-25-2016, 04:28 PM
they're just not that talented, what makes it worse is melos decline.... must be tough watching calderon constantly get lit up.

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 04:33 PM
Honestly I was excited when we got Calderon last year and he has been a huge disappointment. I'm as big a TS% fan as any and I quote it excessively but let me tell you a handful of 3's at 40% during the week keeps the TS% but isn't winning the Knicks games. He stinks on defense and a combination of his age and the Knicks system has killed his value as a playmaker.

I'd say nothing is winning the Knicks games. When you look at a poor performing team you're obviously going to see a bunch of players performing poorly. I was surprised any anyone to see Jose at 116 off rating and 110 def rating, but yes he's not only positive but the highest net rating among players that get significant minutes (he might be highest on the team, I stopped looking at 1000 mins). And he doesn't come close to having the worst def rating.

Now obvious anecdotally Calderon's a pretty bad defender. But statistically he's overall better than the rest of the roster, and I only EVER said statistically.

pebloemer
02-25-2016, 04:38 PM
Perhaps, but they could've made some sort of moves. If you look at players like Markief Morris or Tobias from Orlando they were basically give always.

Atlanta was open for business.

Philly can always be pilfered for tanking purposes.

Something could've been done.

Atlanta didn't sell off anything, so you could debate how open they actually were, or alternatively the costs that were required to do business with them. In either case, I'm not sure how the Knicks get an impact player from Atlanta without further taking away from their future.

The Tobias Harris deal was very nice for the Pistons. It is clear Orlando was looking for depth and 3pt shooting. Not sure the Knicks have a quality backup PG who can shoot the 3 and a quality stretch 4 who both have familiarity with the Magic head coach though.

I'm not sure Markieff is a guy you want to bring into a rebuilding team (much less a city with a pretty enticing night life).

The Knicks aren't close to contending for anything meaningful this year, why waste assets when more opportunities will be available in the off-season?

ewing
02-25-2016, 04:42 PM
What are you looking at, exactly? Calderon is 51% on 2s, 41% on 3s, 89% on FTs, over 7:2 ast:to, and +6 net rtg (the next highest among player >1000 min is Robin Lopez at +5).

So if it's not Jose, who is it? What are you using to judge besides ppg and disgust with Calderon?


you are obviously hard headed. If you are PG and averaging 7 and 4 over 30 mins you are not having an impact. It not even like Caldo plays a Paxson type role where he is a passive PG. He is the teams primary ball handler when on the floor and he makes no impact. How you can call a guy that always has the ball low usage i'm not sure. His job isn't to stand in the corner like Bruce Bowen. Its not like he plays a Paxson role where Pip and MJ do all the ball handling. Im not going to agrue with you but IMO you can use stats easily make a case for a #s of player being better then Jose Calderon.

GiantsSwaGG
02-25-2016, 05:13 PM
The sad truth is that despite the flashy name additions and early season hype, they are still a 1 man team with alot of guys who would have helped them more 2-3 years ago. As it is, its a group of has beens and their lone bright spot that made them a playoff contender has hit the rookie wall. Hes been really inefficient the last 18 games or so, Melo is playing team ball but the load hasnt lessened on him. They have no true 2-way guy except for Rolo and he prolly doesnt count. Their most efficient guy offensively is a turnstile defensively.

Best thing for them is to tank the year, they need more talent but they will eventually start competing and KP cant be this inefficient forever.

This

KP has hit the rookie wall (which you would expect) but the potential is scary. Poor Shot selection is his problem so far, Although he can be a good 3pt shooter, I would like him to focus more on his mid range game and post up moves. He's a a year or 2 away from being a legit 2 way player (barring injury)

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 05:32 PM
you are obviously hard headed. If you are PG and averaging 7 and 4 over 30 mins you are not having an impact. It not even like Caldo plays a Paxson type role where he is a passive PG. He is the teams primary ball handler when on the floor and he makes no impact. How you can call a guy that always has the ball low usage i'm not sure. His job isn't to stand in the corner like Bruce Bowen. Its not like he plays a Paxson role where Pip and MJ do all the ball handling. Im not going to agrue with you but IMO you can use stats easily make a case for a #s of player being better then Jose Calderon.

So, what you're saying is you don't look at anything to form your opinion. You asked what I was looking at, I told you. I asked what statistics you're using, twice, and you've yet to answer. I provided evidence, you did not, but i'm "hard headed". All you got is calling things that don't agree with your opinion "nonsense". But you're not going to argue. Got it.

teddygreen17
02-25-2016, 05:53 PM
Why are they losing so much games? Fisher is finally gone and now its time to make a run for the playoffs but seems like they just dont want to win.

Their starting 5 is decent, awful bench though.

Porz
Melo
Lopez
Afflalo
Calderon

Imo Boston and Indiana are doing much better with less talent.

1. Guard Defense (which kills forwards and C during the course of the game with stamina and foul trouble)
2. Guard Offense
3. Lack of Leadership
4. Inconsistency of efficiency from Star players (AA, Melo, and KP)
5. Lack of big presence off bench..IMO AA should be a 6th man.

The Master has spoken. Let your mind be opened.

ewing
02-25-2016, 06:33 PM
So, what you're saying is you don't look at anything to form your opinion. You asked what I was looking at, I told you. I asked what statistics you're using, twice, and you've yet to answer. I provided evidence, you did not, but i'm "hard headed". All you got is calling things that don't agree with your opinion "nonsense". But you're not going to argue. Got it.

i thought mins on the floor, time with ball, assists, and points were measurables. if you want use efficiency to compare kawhi leonard to Melo as a scorer fine doing the same thing with Jose doesn't make sense. Statically, he is negative. all the knick PGs have been. you right though in that i am done with your hard headed nonsense.

ewing
02-25-2016, 06:37 PM
1. Guard Defense (which kills forwards and C during the course of the game with stamina and foul trouble)
2. Guard Offense
3. Lack of Leadership
4. Inconsistency of efficiency from Star players (AA, Melo, and KP)
5. Lack of big presence off bench..IMO AA should be a 6th man.

The Master has spoken. Let your mind be opened.

make AA a bench players is a good idea. he is a gunner

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 07:29 PM
i thought mins on the floor, time with ball, assists, and points were measurables. if you want use efficiency to compare kawhi leonard to Melo as a scorer fine doing the same thing with Jose doesn't make sense. Statically, he is negative. all the knick PGs have been. you right though in that i am done with your hard headed nonsense.

Guess i thought you were going to go with something more convincing than points and assists. Lol.

jimm120
02-25-2016, 07:34 PM
Knicks needed a 2nd scorer and a PG.

Phil got

Afflalo (averaging 14ppg) and Jerian Grant (not too good...yet).

Oh, and the triangle


Knicks, since Amare got injured (playoffs of year 1...never the same again), have desperately needed a 2nd scorer. And they haven't been able to get it.

DboneG
02-25-2016, 07:52 PM
The NY Knicks Problems


1. Point Guard play - The Knicks are in need of a "real" point guard that can get easy shots for others as well as for himself. Jose Calderon is not that guy. He'll make a good backup point guard. This way the Knicks can strengthen their bench.

2. Rookie play - more importantly the play of Kristaps Porzingis. It's obvious he has hit a wall, don't want to go inside and get rebounds/bang/block shots. He really don't have the body for the long NBA season. He's 7'3", let's hope the young kid doesn't grow another inch or two. The season has taken it's toll on him. Langston Galloway has fallen off also. Langston played a key role in a lot of the Knicks victories. Now, the guy can make a bucket when he's open, making mistakes..Oh! I forgot! These guys are rookies.

3. Carmelo Anthony - Early in the season Carmelo was playing unselfish ball. He's getting ready to go back to his old ways. Especially, since the Knicks wanted to trade him! Guys are not hustling, guys are not banging the boards, guys are depending on him to do everything. Then, they wanted to trade him and give the keys to Ric Smits...I mean Kristaps Porzingis! Carmelo, LeBron, D-Rose, soon Anthony Davis, these guys are tired of doing everything to get a win. It's BURNOUT MODE. Carmelo says no! I'm not getting ready to burn myself out for these guys.

JasonJohnHorn
02-25-2016, 09:12 PM
I don't remember Lopez ever being a strong defender, and Jose (who I love as a TO fan) has certain never been a good defender. So point guards and post players will eat up NY.


Other than that, they got a solid player as a cornerstone (Melo), but he's not even a top-five player, and a rookie with potential, but who still needs to develop.

I agree they should be competing for a playoff spot, but it's not surprising to see them doing poorly, especially since their coach just got fired.

IndyRealist
02-25-2016, 09:33 PM
I don't remember Lopez ever being a strong defender, and Jose (who I love as a TO fan) has certain never been a good defender. So point guards and post players will eat up NY.


Other than that, they got a solid player as a cornerstone (Melo), but he's not even a top-five player, and a rookie with potential, but who still needs to develop.

I agree they should be competing for a playoff spot, but it's not surprising to see them doing poorly, especially since their coach just got fired.
Robin Lopez was top 5 at rim opponent FG% his two years in Portland.

ewing
02-25-2016, 11:12 PM
Guess i thought you were going to go with something more convincing than points and assists. Lol.

don't really have to dig deep for this one.

blahblahyoutoo
02-26-2016, 12:43 AM
Wait, I thought Knicks is back.

Chronz
02-26-2016, 01:11 AM
I don't think the names are very flashy. I do get your drift though. Melo is on the down turn and AA and Jose have both seen better days. AA is the biggest disappointment to me. I was always a fan seeing this guy every night make you realize he is chucker, that doesn't move the ball, and not a good decision maker at all. He does have nice post game for a guard and can hit some Js but....
By flashy I mean for guys you brought in to support a star, guess its subjective tho.
AA is like 2 years removed from AS talk, 1 year removed from being looked at as a major piece to the puzzle in Portland but yeah his game has slowly degraded, I dont know why but as players age they actually hold onto the ball more than they used to, prolly cuz they so desperately want to create something positive, only they lack the quickness they used to.

In AA's case, he started devolving after his first year with Chauncey. You would have loved him here at UCLA and his first few years in the L, he was the perfect role player back

ManningToTyree
02-26-2016, 02:28 AM
Why are they losing so much games? Fisher is finally gone and now its time to make a run for the playoffs but seems like they just dont want to win.

Their starting 5 is decent, awful bench though.

Porz
Melo
Lopez
Afflalo
Calderon

Imo Boston and Indiana are doing much better with less talent.

1. Guard Defense (which kills forwards and C during the course of the game with stamina and foul trouble)
2. Guard Offense
3. Lack of Leadership
4. Inconsistency of efficiency from Star players (AA, Melo, and KP)
5. Lack of big presence off bench..IMO AA should be a 6th man.

The Master has spoken. Let your mind be opened. this is pretty on point.

ewing
02-26-2016, 10:24 AM
Well the team has won one game since Lou Amundson shaved his man bun

Pierzynski4Prez
02-26-2016, 11:41 AM
Wait, I thought Knicks is back.

Me too. I can't keep up anymore.

ewing
02-27-2016, 09:23 AM
Calderon with back to back decent games (one of them a really good game). we are back again

Crackadalic
02-27-2016, 11:42 AM
Our guards are old and slow. Ish smith was tearing us apart smh

D-Leethal
02-27-2016, 12:55 PM
I think ewing's point was nobody is impressed with Calderon's sweet shooting when his output is putrid for a starter giving you 30MPG and handling the rock all the time. He is constantly passing up shots we need him to take so he can swing the ball east and west and get us nowhere. He is allergic to the paint and blows on the pick and roll and pick and pop game. He is not good at all, regardless of whatever flawed lineup-dependent stats you want to throw out there and call his analysis elementary.


1. Guard Defense (which kills forwards and C during the course of the game with stamina and foul trouble)
2. Guard Offense
3. Lack of Leadership
4. Inconsistency of efficiency from Star players (AA, Melo, and KP)
5. Lack of big presence off bench..IMO AA should be a 6th man.

The Master has spoken. Let your mind be opened.

This pretty much sums it all up nicely. And I think all Knick fans will appreciate your point about the guard D killing our big men by forcing them into no mans land on rotations under the rim trying to contest guards and leaving his own man wide for a dunk.

RLundi
02-27-2016, 03:15 PM
Your best player statistically is Jose Calderon. Think about that.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you misuse, misapply, and misunderstand advanced statistics.

xxplayerxx23
02-27-2016, 04:26 PM
Your best player statistically is Jose Calderon. Think about that.

Melo has been pretty good by Melo standards, but he's not Kevin Durant or Lebron.

Robin Lopez has also been pretty good, but Porzingas is a rookie, and Affalo only seems to play well in contract years. And admittedly your bench sucks.

Boston and Indiana have more talent and are deeper, with less name recognition. And they are better coached.

Drugs. Jose Calderon best player ? What

TheNumber37
02-27-2016, 05:19 PM
It's because Sahsa Vujacic has started more games than Galloway and Grant combined.
He probably has more mins than Grant

reason 10 of a bunch

da ThRONe
02-27-2016, 05:36 PM
Problem is they aren't good enough to compete and management didn't realize it going into the season.

DboneG
02-27-2016, 07:49 PM
Kirt Rambis apparently agrees with me.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headli...ticleId=397847







"Only to see Kristaps Porzingis hit a wall. Guys figured out how to play him. Getting physical with him, so, you see him at the top of the key a lot. Kristaps don't have a NBA type body. That's a big concern. He's 7'3" and very skinny, the grind of the NBA is wearing on him. Let's hope he doesn’t grow any more. "........

I was saying let's hope he doesn't grow any more, not to be funny or trying to make a joke. But, 7'4", 7'5", 7'6" guys don't fair well in the NBA. They don't have long careers. That's not the ideal size for the rugged and rough play of the NBA. Maybe the scouting report says When Porzingis drives to the basket, take a charge. "Make him tumble!" Big long bodies have a hard time getting up. I don't know if any of you guys played basketball...but, you are very sore after the game, from falling to the floor, charges, elbows, pushing, etc. D-Wade wears all kinds of padding under his uniform, as well as others.




"Kristaps Porzingis got 2 rebounds last game and shot seven 3's! Indiana beat them on the boards. Game before that Kristaps Porzingis got 2 as in TWO rebounds and shot six 3's and they got blew-out at home against Toronto. I don't know if any of you guys played ball...but, all that bangin' takes it's toll. There are times you are so sore, you can't hardly move. Again they got beat on the boards.".........

Psychologically, Kristaps wants nothing to do with inside play right now. Kurt Rambis was actually wrong for calling him out. Rambis brought attention to the situation. The kid has hit the rookie wall, and he's banged up. He should have sat him a few games, so he could get rest and let the trainers work on him.


ROY award is gone Kristaps!

ROY gone! He gone Kristaps...

ROY going to Karl-Anthony Towns.

IndyRealist
02-27-2016, 11:49 PM
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you misuse, misapply, and misunderstand advanced statistics.


Drugs. Jose Calderon best player ? What

People wanna jump in after the conversation ended, trying to troll uncontested. Neither of you provided any evidence to the contrary. No one is willing to put their pick out there and back it up, including the people originally in the conversation No one is providing any evidence, at all, except me. So by default I win unless one of you wants to actually step up. Who, statistically, is the best Knick and why?

ManningToTyree
02-28-2016, 02:48 AM
(null) who are you even debating with? Towns has been the best rookie wire to wire. KP has hit a wall he's 19 and has never played this many games with the travel and such. He needs to put on weight to consistently bang down low. All that said he has exceeded even the most eager of expectations for his rookie campaign. He was a big part of early success you are correct. A

mngopher35
02-28-2016, 04:14 AM
People wanna jump in after the conversation ended, trying to troll uncontested. Neither of you provided any evidence to the contrary. No one is willing to put their pick out there and back it up, including the people originally in the conversation No one is providing any evidence, at all, except me. So by default I win unless one of you wants to actually step up. Who, statistically, is the best Knick and why?

When it comes to raw statistics Melo has him handily there (produce more total pts via scoring and assisting and rebounds more). He also has a higher PER, total WS, WS/48, BPM/Vorp, better +/- on/off, and RPM/RPM wins. Calderon is the more efficient player in shooting and overall but he isn't forced to produce like Melo either (less than half the usage of Melo). Also has a better DRPM and DRTG on that end of the court while also holding his player below avg % while Calderon's man scores at an above average %.

Again Jose is more efficient but Melo does more for the team overall which is why he has the lead in many of those stats.

NYKalltheway
02-28-2016, 07:38 AM
Lack of coaching.
Bad management (chronic problem)
Lack of game plan.
Lack of depth.

Knicks are a bad team, period. We're as random as a team can be built.

ewing
02-28-2016, 11:58 AM
People wanna jump in after the conversation ended, trying to troll uncontested. Neither of you provided any evidence to the contrary. No one is willing to put their pick out there and back it up, including the people originally in the conversation No one is providing any evidence, at all, except me. So by default I win unless one of you wants to actually step up. Who, statistically, is the best Knick and why?

if you say 2 + 2 = 10 and someone says that's but doesn't correct you 2 + 2 doesn't = 10 :)

FOXHOUND
02-28-2016, 12:09 PM
People wanna jump in after the conversation ended, trying to troll uncontested. Neither of you provided any evidence to the contrary. No one is willing to put their pick out there and back it up, including the people originally in the conversation No one is providing any evidence, at all, except me. So by default I win unless one of you wants to actually step up. Who, statistically, is the best Knick and why?

Jose Calderon is the worst starting PG in the NBA... by far. If you need an explanation on why he isn't the best player on the Knicks then that's your problem, not anybody else's. How about this, you to explain to everyone why the Knicks are 0-7 in the games Melo has missed, despite still having their best player in Calderon, and then we'll explain to you why he sucks.

FOXHOUND
02-28-2016, 12:13 PM
The Knicks have the worst overall offensive and defensive play at the PG and SG positions in the NBA.

The Knicks have no good backups at the PF and C positions.

The Knicks have three starting caliber players on the roster, with one player who would be a solid 6th man.

Two of the three starting caliber players are only average at their positions, at best.

IndyRealist
02-28-2016, 12:33 PM
Jose Calderon is the worst starting PG in the NBA... by far. If you need an explanation on why he isn't the best player on the Knicks then that's your problem, not anybody else's. How about this, you to explain to everyone why the Knicks are 0-7 in the games Melo has missed, despite still having their best player in Calderon, and then we'll explain to you why he sucks.

System and replacement players. No matter whether a player is their best or not, when they account for 30%+ of your possessions and you remove him, the team is not going to know what to do. It's not plug and play.

IndyRealist
02-28-2016, 12:36 PM
When it comes to raw statistics Melo has him handily there (produce more total pts via scoring and assisting and rebounds more). He also has a higher PER, total WS, WS/48, BPM/Vorp, better +/- on/off, and RPM/RPM wins. Calderon is the more efficient player in shooting and overall but he isn't forced to produce like Melo either (less than half the usage of Melo). Also has a better DRPM and DRTG on that end of the court while also holding his player below avg % while Calderon's man scores at an above average %.

Again Jose is more efficient but Melo does more for the team overall which is why he has the lead in many of those stats.

Thank gawd someone actually had the balls to answer the question.

Raw stats mean very little. We'll just start there. Points scored don't tell you anything about HOW those points were scored. That's why we look at percentages. And Melo is below average on 2s, and below average on 3s. His negative effect on scoring is only exacerbated by the volume of scoring he does. If a player who shoots exactly average takes 5 shots, he gives you 5 possessions worth of average production. If he takes 20 shots, he gives you 20 possessions of average production. Still average. Now, if he were above average, you're getting a exponential effect with giving him more possessions.. The same goes if you give more possessions to a below average scorer, like Melo. By taking so many possessions at a below average rate he is exponentially multiplying his below average scoring. If it were 5 possessions it wouldn't matter that much. But when you're using 20 possessions a game it counts for a lot more. Usage in and of itself is not good or bad, it just is. Saying that Melo HAS to take a lot of shots to justify his poor shooting is deviating from the question (and has been proving to be false anyway, there is no correlation between usage and efficiency). I only ever said statistically.

PER is bunk. Everyone knows PER is bunk. John Hollinger abandoned it when he left ESPN. I don't know why people still quote it. PER rewards players like Melo, low accuracy high volume players. You can do something negative (shoot poorly) and simply by doing it at volume you can raise your PER.

BPM makes the assumption that coaches are only concerned with winning and optimally distributes to players who improve their chances of winning. We know that is untrue. Coaches play players for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with winning. Some players make too much to bench (Andrea Bargnani in TOR), some are giving minutes to rookies to speed development, giving up wins now for wins in future years (Porzingas), some coaches are interfered with by management (Roy Hibbert in IND under O'Brien), etc. And some coaches are just bad coaches. Just recently in Indiana the decision was made to play smallball. Despite the fact that our strength has been our bigs and our best players this year have been our bigs, we deliberately took minutes from productive players like Jordan Hill, Lavoy Allen and later Myles Turner, and gave them to unproductive players like Joseph Young and CJ Miles. Heck, Paul George's minutes barely budged despite being obviously tired and shooting extremely poorly because of it.


There was some debate over whether including minutes per game (MPG) in the regression was reasonable. It was clear from the regression, however, that MPG adds to the accuracy of BPM, and that consideration outweighed the desire to be orthogonal from coaching choices. Essentially, the positive (and sizeable) coefficient for MPG means that coaches can see things that the box score can't and that they, in general, are correct in giving minutes to the players they do, even when they give more minutes than the other box score statistics would suggest.

VORP is calculated from BPM (or ASPM) and suffers the same bias.

No one would use WS if it wasn't on basketball reference (because they made it). The coefficients are made up like PER.

Melo has a 106 off rating, 107 def rating for a net rating of -1. Calderon has an off rating of 116 and a def rating of 109 for a net rating of +7. When he is on the floor, the Knicks outscore their opponents. When Melo is on the floor, they do not. And that's pretty impressive for Jose considering he's on the floor with Melo a lot. Sure it's possible team effects are involved, but Jose has the HIGHEST off rating on the team, AND the highest differential. It's far more likely the reason is the offense simply runs better with him than without.

mngopher35
02-28-2016, 07:34 PM
Thank gawd someone actually had the balls to answer the question.

Raw stats mean very little. We'll just start there. Points scored don't tell you anything about HOW those points were scored. That's why we look at percentages. And Melo is below average on 2s, and below average on 3s. His negative effect on scoring is only exacerbated by the volume of scoring he does. If a player who shoots exactly average takes 5 shots, he gives you 5 possessions worth of average production. If he takes 20 shots, he gives you 20 possessions of average production. Still average. Now, if he were above average, you're getting a exponential effect with giving him more possessions.. The same goes if you give more possessions to a below average scorer, like Melo. By taking so many possessions at a below average rate he is exponentially multiplying his below average scoring. If it were 5 possessions it wouldn't matter that much. But when you're using 20 possessions a game it counts for a lot more. Usage in and of itself is not good or bad, it just is. Saying that Melo HAS to take a lot of shots to justify his poor shooting is deviating from the question (and has been proving to be false anyway, there is no correlation between usage and efficiency). I only ever said statistically.

PER is bunk. Everyone knows PER is bunk. John Hollinger abandoned it when he left ESPN. I don't know why people still quote it. PER rewards players like Melo, low accuracy high volume players. You can do something negative (shoot poorly) and simply by doing it at volume you can raise your PER.

BPM makes the assumption that coaches are only concerned with winning and optimally distributes to players who improve their chances of winning. We know that is untrue. Coaches play players for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with winning. Some players make too much to bench (Andrea Bargnani in TOR), some are giving minutes to rookies to speed development, giving up wins now for wins in future years (Porzingas), some coaches are interfered with by management (Roy Hibbert in IND under O'Brien), etc. And some coaches are just bad coaches. Just recently in Indiana the decision was made to play smallball. Despite the fact that our strength has been our bigs and our best players this year have been our bigs, we deliberately took minutes from productive players like Jordan Hill, Lavoy Allen and later Myles Turner, and gave them to unproductive players like Joseph Young and CJ Miles. Heck, Paul George's minutes barely budged despite being obviously tired and shooting extremely poorly because of it.



VORP is calculated from BPM (or ASPM) and suffers the same bias.

No one would use WS if it wasn't on basketball reference (because they made it). The coefficients are made up like PER.

Melo has a 106 off rating, 107 def rating for a net rating of -1. Calderon has an off rating of 116 and a def rating of 109 for a net rating of +7. When he is on the floor, the Knicks outscore their opponents. When Melo is on the floor, they do not. And that's pretty impressive for Jose considering he's on the floor with Melo a lot. Sure it's possible team effects are involved, but Jose has the HIGHEST off rating on the team, AND the highest differential. It's far more likely the reason is the offense simply runs better with him than without.

I agree most of what you say and there are certainly flaws with many of the stats as you mentioned. When you try and break basketball down to a single stat that is what will happen though and IMO they are better at telling who the better player is than simply looking at efficiency differences (especially when drtg itself is flawed when translated individually). Always need to consider their flaws though and they should never be used individually to prove anything but it helped show a pattern at the least. Just because raw stats don't get into efficiency doesn't make them useless either they help show who is carrying the load for the team (which will hurt a players efficiency). You never covered the others that I mentioned so I assume you agree those are alright and give Melo the edge?

Tyson Chandler had a 29 pt regular season difference in ortg and drtg in 2011 rs while Dirk only had a 10 pt difference. In the playoffs it was a 32 for Chandler and 10 for Dirk. So essentially their gap was about 20 points making Chandler clearly better than Dirk correct? This year for the Clippers Jordan has the bigger gap than Paul so he is leading the way right? ORTG judges a players efficiency within their role on the team which is why lower volume players who just play within their role will excel in a gap like this. It doesn't make them better overall players it makes them more efficient in their role than (in these cases) someone who is less efficient with a much larger role.

When Jose Calderon is on the court the Knicks ORTG is 106.4 and when he is off it is 104.7. For Melo it is 107.6 when he is on and 102 when he is off. When Melo is on the floor the Knicks are more efficient than just when Calderon is and the drop off when he sits is also bigger than Calderon. The opponent ORTG actually increases when Melo is off while it drops big time when Calderon is on/off (so their defense also is better based on opponent ortg when Melo plays). The net for Melo is +6.5 while for Calderon it is -3.5. I am not sure where you found your info on the Knicks outscoring opponents when Calderon is on the floor but according to NBA.com his +/- is -2.1 while for Melo it is 0 so I am curious on where you got that.

IndyRealist
02-28-2016, 08:03 PM
I agree most of what you say and there are certainly flaws with many of the stats as you mentioned. When you try and break basketball down to a single stat that is what will happen though and IMO they are better at telling who the better player is than simply looking at efficiency differences (especially when drtg itself is flawed when translated individually). Always need to consider their flaws though and they should never be used individually to prove anything but it helped show a pattern at the least. Just because raw stats don't get into efficiency doesn't make them useless either they help show who is carrying the load for the team (which will hurt a players efficiency). You never covered the others that I mentioned so I assume you agree those are alright and give Melo the edge?

Tyson Chandler had a 29 pt regular season difference in ortg and drtg in 2011 rs while Dirk only had a 10 pt difference. In the playoffs it was a 32 for Chandler and 10 for Dirk. So essentially their gap was about 20 points making Chandler clearly better than Dirk correct? This year for the Clippers Jordan has the bigger gap than Paul so he is leading the way right? ORTG judges a players efficiency within their role on the team which is why lower volume players who just play within their role will excel in a gap like this. It doesn't make them better overall players it makes them more efficient in their role than (in these cases) someone who is less efficient with a much larger role.

When Jose Calderon is on the court the Knicks ORTG is 106.4 and when he is off it is 104.7. For Melo it is 107.6 when he is on and 102 when he is off. When Melo is on the floor the Knicks are more efficient than just when Calderon is and the drop off when he sits is also bigger than Calderon. The opponent ORTG actually increases when Melo is off while it drops big time when Calderon is on/off (so their defense also is better based on opponent ortg when Melo plays). The net for Melo is +6.5 while for Calderon it is -3.5. I am not sure where you found your info on the Knicks outscoring opponents when Calderon is on the floor but according to NBA.com his +/- is -2.1 while for Melo it is 0 so I am curious on where you got that.

I am looking at basketball-reference.com. You seem to be quoting raw +/-, which you cannot use for single season data, there just isn't enough signal to noise. The creator of +/- said so. That's why there's a billion PM variants trying to minimize the noise. I didn't address RPM simply because I wrote a book already.

Tyson Chandler is a very interesting case study. The numbers say he is he is incredibly valuable. Virtually EVERY metric said Chandler was the single most valuable player for that team. Yet the Mavs thought he was replaceable. How'd that work out for them, exactly?

"Carrying the load" is a key thought here. Is volume shooting important? I'd point you to when the Grizzlies traded Rudy Gay. Most EVERYONE said that team would fall apart, because there wasn't anyone to create shots for that team. But players don't create shots, they take shots. And they're taking shots from their teammates. What the Grizzlies did was simply spread those shots out among the other players, and it worked out just fine. Now as I said before, when you make such a lineup change in the middle of the season, such as due to Melo missing time, and don't have time to implement a new system it causes a lot of confusion and inefficiency. But when it's implemented with a succession plan it works out fine. There simply isn't evidence to show that you need a high volume guy to carry your team.

And just to reiterate, I'm not arguing that Jose Calderon is their best player, I'm arguing that he statistically outstrips the rest of the team. Your statistical best player isn't always your best player, i.e. Dirk and Chandler.

mngopher35
02-28-2016, 08:18 PM
I am looking at basketball-reference.com. You seem to be quoting raw +/-, which you cannot use for single season data, there just isn't enough signal to noise. The creator of +/- said so. That's why there's a billion PM variants trying to minimize the noise. I didn't address RPM simply because I wrote a book already.

Tyson Chandler is a very interesting case study. The numbers say he is he is incredibly valuable. Virtually EVERY metric said Chandler was the single most valuable player for that team. Yet the Mavs thought he was replaceable. How'd that work out for them, exactly?

"Carrying the load" is a key thought here. Is volume shooting important? I'd point you to when the Grizzlies traded Rudy Gay. Most EVERYONE said that team would fall apart, because there wasn't anyone to create shots for that team. But players don't create shots, they take shots. And they're taking shots from their teammates. What the Grizzlies did was simply spread those shots out among the other players, and it worked out just fine. Now as I said before, when you make such a lineup change in the middle of the season, such as due to Melo missing time, and don't have time to implement a new system it causes a lot of confusion and inefficiency. But when it's implemented with a succession plan it works out fine. There simply isn't evidence to show that you need a high volume guy to carry your team.

And just to reiterate, I'm not arguing that Jose Calderon is their best player, I'm arguing that he statistically outstrips the rest of the team. Your statistical best player isn't always your best player, i.e. Dirk and Chandler.

I guess we just really disagree on how to judge players statistically then. I agree volume can be overrated in examples like Gay and Ellis and honestly even Melo himself but so can differential in efficiency. I agree Chandler was very valuable and doesn't even get enough credit to this day but Dirk was still the better player. I don't think Tristan Thompson is the best player on the Cavs this year either (or my Jordan example stands too). Just looking at efficiency of a player isn't as telling to me as the entire picture statistically which is why I named so many stats in response and that picture paints Melo as the best. To me it is pretty clear that Melo is better statistically but we seem to have better methods of judging that off of them.

I am curious where you find that data on bball reference since the on/off numbers seem to say something different as well? Just want to find it and look around myself.

IndyRealist
02-28-2016, 10:34 PM
I guess we just really disagree on how to judge players statistically then. I agree volume can be overrated in examples like Gay and Ellis and honestly even Melo himself but so can differential in efficiency. I agree Chandler was very valuable and doesn't even get enough credit to this day but Dirk was still the better player. I don't think Tristan Thompson is the best player on the Cavs this year either (or my Jordan example stands too). Just looking at efficiency of a player isn't as telling to me as the entire picture statistically which is why I named so many stats in response and that picture paints Melo as the best. To me it is pretty clear that Melo is better statistically but we seem to have better methods of judging that off of them.

I am curious where you find that data on bball reference since the on/off numbers seem to say something different as well? Just want to find it and look around myself.
On the team page under stats per 100 possessions.

I don't think I've said efficiency is the only thing you look at, but it is probably the single most important factor. Basketball is a game of possessions. What matters is getting possessions, not giving away possessions, and how well you use those possessions. That's why efficiency is important, because the first two more or less cancel each other out. You necessarily turn over the ball at least 12 times/game on average. It happens to the best of teams no matter how good you are. But you can control your efficiency through shot selection.

blahblahyoutoo
02-28-2016, 10:54 PM
Me too. I can't keep up anymore.

i think i get it now. when amare left the knicks, knicks is no longer back.

mngopher35
02-28-2016, 10:57 PM
On the team page under stats per 100 possessions.

This has minutes, games, 2 3 and ft, ast reb tov blk stl ortg drtg but I see nothing about the team outscoring opponents when Jose is on the court compared to Carmelo. According to on/off data the team is actually better when Melo is on the court compared to Jose which is why I asked where that info is. Sorry you have to walk me through this if I'm just being blind. Link is below to make sure I'm starting in the right spot.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2016.html?lid=header_teams


I don't think I've said efficiency is the only thing you look at, but it is probably the single most important factor. Basketball is a game of possessions. What matters is getting possessions, not giving away possessions, and how well you use those possessions. That's why efficiency is important, because the first two more or less cancel each other out. You necessarily turn over the ball at least 12 times/game on average. It happens to the best of teams no matter how good you are. But you can control your efficiency through shot selection.

I don't know if you have said that but so far your only counter was to criticize some of the stats I used (fairly though, not saying you were wrong to) and used a gap in ORTG (efficiency) to DRTG (flawed when looking at individuals) to make your claim. So far statistically that is the only evidence given so I am assuming that is what you were basing your statement on. To me when the flawed stats overwhelmingly point to one player being better and RPM, on/off data also say the same thing being more efficient in a simpler role is not enough to change my mind.

I agree that efficiency is important but I don't think so to the point where I would call someone better statistically or overall for that reason alone. Volume matters especially when you are taking the most defensive attention and creating opportunities for others (shift defense, easy rebounds due to help, getting doubled etc). It is much easier to be efficient when you just have to finish instead of creating and it is why those playmakers tend to get more money (some take it too far like with Gay I agree but in the case of say Lebron vs. Tristan or Paul vs. Jordan it's a huge difference and efficiency won't show any of that).

Edit: I should add you did have another counter point of the Knicks outscoring opponents when he is on the court and not while Melo is but I haven't gotten to look at it yet (not your fault) so can't quite dispute besides pointing out the on/off data which says differently. Mostly it seemed based off of efficiency (ortg) and a flawed individual statistic (drtg).

mrblisterdundee
02-29-2016, 01:06 AM
The career arcs of their two main stars are way off. The Knicks need to be realistic about Carmelo Anthony's value at this point, and try to trade him for assets to pair with Kristaps Porzingis.

eDush
02-29-2016, 03:31 AM
The career arcs of their two main stars are way off. The Knicks need to be realistic about Carmelo Anthony's value at this point, and try to trade him for assets to pair with Kristaps Porzingis.

The Knicks are realistic about it but you forgot that Melo has a no trade clause and already told the media he isn't going anywhere. For Melo, he wants to represent his home town which i respect a lot. Same for Lebron going back to Ohio.

It's a home town thing that hopefully you will understand.... (https://youtu.be/_i0huArm_uI) :nod:

More-Than-Most
02-29-2016, 04:00 AM
Everyone blaming melo... Dude has no help at all... KP was great for like 2 weeks and trash the rest of the year and that is expected because he is a rookie... KP is being abused right now and really needs to add weight... This knicks team will be a contender if they get these 2 guys some help... KP will actually be good next year and melo will be melo like again when he actually has help... I would trade Melo as well because of the contract and eventual decline but in my opinion he isnt the problem... We always blame 1 person and never look at the team... Outside of Melo who has been good this year on this knicks team?

More-Than-Most
02-29-2016, 04:02 AM
The Knicks are realistic about it but you forgot that Melo has a no trade clause and already told the media he isn't going anywhere. For Melo, he wants to represent his home town which i respect a lot. Same for Lebron going back to Ohio.

It's a home town thing that hopefully you will understand.... (https://youtu.be/_i0huArm_uI) :nod:

Yup and you also cant blame melo for this... He didnt give himself the no trade clause. Everyone knew it was idiotic when it happened... Its just the knicks being the knicks.

FOXHOUND
02-29-2016, 04:55 AM
System and replacement players. No matter whether a player is their best or not, when they account for 30%+ of your possessions and you remove him, the team is not going to know what to do. It's not plug and play.

You really don't realize that there's a reason why he accounts for 30% of their possessions, huh...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2016/on-off/

Do you know why Calderon has the worst on court differential of the Knicks starting five, or why they have been better when he's off the court this year? It's because he sucks dude, come on. Not even going to get into the fact of how much he relies on other players to pass it to him for open shots because he can't create his own at any consistent level. Players like, you know, Melo, who leads the team in points, rebounds and assists and kicks it to Calderon when he draws double teams. You know who never draws double teams? :rolleyes:

Melo and KP are the only big impact players on the Knicks. If Calderon is any sort of big impact it is purely a negative one. His efficiency means little with how little his volume is and it doesn't come remotely close to making up for how his awful D affects the entire team beyond opposing PG's demolishing him every game.

FOXHOUND
02-29-2016, 04:57 AM
Yup and you also cant blame melo for this... He didnt give himself the no trade clause. Everyone knew it was idiotic when it happened... Its just the knicks being the knicks.

The NTC is actually part of the CBA. 10+ years in the league and 4+ years with the same team = automatic NTC.

More-Than-Most
02-29-2016, 05:39 AM
The NTC is actually part of the CBA. 10+ years in the league and 4+ years with the same team = automatic NTC.

Yea I know and Melo isnt someones id have risked signing that is why I blame the knicks.

mrblisterdundee
02-29-2016, 01:57 PM
The Knicks are realistic about it but you forgot that Melo has a no trade clause and already told the media he isn't going anywhere. For Melo, he wants to represent his home town which i respect a lot. Same for Lebron going back to Ohio.

It's a home town thing that hopefully you will understand.... (https://youtu.be/_i0huArm_uI) :nod:

Are you trying to tell me Anthony would nix a trade to a contender? Because only a contender needing a second or third piece would even sniff him right now. Talk about your hometown thing all you want, but I guarantee you:
• Anthony wants a championship before he retires.
• He's not getting one in New York.
• He'll gladly accept a trade if he thinks the team he's going to will truly contend.

Hawkeye15
02-29-2016, 02:18 PM
Are you trying to tell me Anthony would nix a trade to a contender? Because only a contender needing a second or third piece would even sniff him right now. Talk about your hometown thing all you want, but I guarantee you:
• Anthony wants a championship before he retires.
• He's not getting one in New York.
• He'll gladly accept a trade if he thinks the team he's going to will truly contend.

but what can a contender send back? A bunch of late 1st round picks and contracts?

ewing
02-29-2016, 02:41 PM
but what can a contender send back? A bunch of late 1st round picks and contracts?

Melo said before the deadline that he would nix any trade to any team. He seems to be getting to the point where he might go back on that but I don't think we can assume that Melo feels he needs a title. He likes NY and i think if he feels like the knicks will be playing meaningful games he will stays.

Wade n Fade
02-29-2016, 02:49 PM
Ownership. James Dolan happens to be one of the worst owners in all 4 major pro sports. Until they get a new owner, the Knicks cannot get out of the culture of mediocrity and incompetence. Phil is doing an okay job, but he is not the guy to usher in a change.

Hawkeye15
02-29-2016, 03:24 PM
Melo said before the deadline that he would nix any trade to any team. He seems to be getting to the point where he might go back on that but I don't think we can assume that Melo feels he needs a title. He likes NY and i think if he feels like the knicks will be playing meaningful games he will stays.

well, then shame on management for giving him that clause. The Knicks need to stop flipping their picks, and start building. Do they even get one this year?

ewing
02-29-2016, 03:32 PM
well, then shame on management for giving him that clause. The Knicks need to stop flipping their picks, and start building. Do they even get one this year?

the knicks do not have a pick this year but own all there picks after that. I don't think Phil had a choice when it came to Melo. Dolan wasn't going to lose his star IMO. Phil did make a bunch of public statements that basically said Melo should sign at a discount but Melo wasn't being shamed out of his money.

cheetos185
02-29-2016, 03:34 PM
Yea I know and Melo isnt someones id have risked signing that is why I blame the knicks.
Melo would have never even consider signing with the sixers in fact is anyone coming to save the sixers lol.

LongIslandIcedZ
02-29-2016, 03:36 PM
In my opinion, you trade Carmelo this offseason. With no pick this season, I have no problem going for the playoffs. Trade him for the best offer.

Build around Porzingis, and the fact that you have all your picks going forward. Trade any high priced veterans for whatever you can get. Tank next season and do a proper rebuild.

nycericanguy
02-29-2016, 03:59 PM
well, then shame on management for giving him that clause. The Knicks need to stop flipping their picks, and start building. Do they even get one this year?

i mean when was the last time NY even traded a pick? 2013?

KnicksorBust
02-29-2016, 04:02 PM
In reality it's not as bad as the Nets but it's pretty close. We capped out to sign Lopez (decent but disappointing) and Afflalo (chucker) and still can't make the playoffs despite the fact that KP is overachieving compared to expectations. It's partially on Melo, partially on the system, partially on the coaching, and partially on Phil Jackson. We have no cap space, no draft pick, and are missing the playoffs. It's an embarassment. I never understand at this point why teams don't experiment with funky lineups and see what sticks. Start Porzingis at Center and let him take 20 shots per game. Speed up that development. Stagger his minutes with Carmelo more so they can both be the focal point on offense. Send Afflalo to the bench. Try a 2 PG lineup with Grant/Calderon. Anything to take away from watching the same starting 5 lose over and over and over.

blahblahyoutoo
02-29-2016, 07:21 PM
The Knicks are realistic about it but you forgot that Melo has a no trade clause and already told the media he isn't going anywhere. For Melo, he wants to represent his home town which i respect a lot. Same for Lebron going back to Ohio.

It's a home town thing that hopefully you will understand.... (https://youtu.be/_i0huArm_uI) :nod:

he spent most of his childhood in baltimore.

More-Than-Most
02-29-2016, 10:39 PM
Melo would have never even consider signing with the sixers in fact is anyone coming to save the sixers lol.

Why attack another persons team for no reason? The sixers won more games than the knicks last year correct? Id rather be in the sixers situation than the knicks situation... Neither have a snowballs chance at doing anything this year or next but the sixers have much more all around talent right now and much more cap space and a ton of draft picks. Not saying we will ever be great but we arent shackled right now like the knicks.

More-Than-Most
02-29-2016, 10:40 PM
In reality it's not as bad as the Nets but it's pretty close. We capped out to sign Lopez (decent but disappointing) and Afflalo (chucker) and still can't make the playoffs despite the fact that KP is overachieving compared to expectations. It's partially on Melo, partially on the system, partially on the coaching, and partially on Phil Jackson. We have no cap space, no draft pick, and are missing the playoffs. It's an embarassment. I never understand at this point why teams don't experiment with funky lineups and see what sticks. Start Porzingis at Center and let him take 20 shots per game. Speed up that development. Stagger his minutes with Carmelo more so they can both be the focal point on offense. Send Afflalo to the bench. Try a 2 PG lineup with Grant/Calderon. Anything to take away from watching the same starting 5 lose over and over and over.

I actually think this is spot on man and pretty genius... What do ya have to lose and i agree

mrblisterdundee
03-01-2016, 02:24 PM
In my opinion, you trade Carmelo this offseason. With no pick this season, I have no problem going for the playoffs. Trade him for the best offer.

Build around Porzingis, and the fact that you have all your picks going forward. Trade any high priced veterans for whatever you can get. Tank next season and do a proper rebuild.

That's a decent plan. Get what assets you can for Anthony, and build around the future.

mngopher35
03-01-2016, 02:39 PM
You really don't realize that there's a reason why he accounts for 30% of their possessions, huh...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2016/on-off/

Do you know why Calderon has the worst on court differential of the Knicks starting five, or why they have been better when he's off the court this year? It's because he sucks dude, come on. Not even going to get into the fact of how much he relies on other players to pass it to him for open shots because he can't create his own at any consistent level. Players like, you know, Melo, who leads the team in points, rebounds and assists and kicks it to Calderon when he draws double teams. You know who never draws double teams? :rolleyes:

Melo and KP are the only big impact players on the Knicks. If Calderon is any sort of big impact it is purely a negative one. His efficiency means little with how little his volume is and it doesn't come remotely close to making up for how his awful D affects the entire team beyond opposing PG's demolishing him every game.

That is what I found too but apparently Knicks have outscored opponents when he is out there and not done so when Melo is according to him. I see Calderon as the only starter with a net negative on/off like you say while Melo actually leads the team in that category.

Crackadalic
03-01-2016, 03:08 PM
We need some hungry young guards that attacks the rim. I'm tired of our slow *** backcourt that may have work early 2000's but not in this era. We are probably last in the nba in drives per game at least smh

Plus their defense blows. Giving up almost 60 points to opposing guards last 10 games. Guys like Ish smith and unknown bench warmers abusing our backcourt smh

Chronz
03-01-2016, 04:02 PM
We need some hungry young guards that attacks the rim. I'm tired of our slow *** backcourt that may have work early 2000's but not in this era. We are probably last in the nba in drives per game at least smh

Plus their defense blows. Giving up almost 60 points to opposing guards last 10 games. Guys like Ish smith and unknown bench warmers abusing our backcourt smh

Yup, the Knicks average 15.2 drives per game, BY FAR the lowest in the league. Im sure thats heavily on Calderon (its always been a knock on him and why I classify him more as a distributor/facilitator than a playmaker) but what about the system?.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2016, 04:03 PM
We need some hungry young guards that attacks the rim. I'm tired of our slow *** backcourt that may have work early 2000's but not in this era. We are probably last in the nba in drives per game at least smh

Plus their defense blows. Giving up almost 60 points to opposing guards last 10 games. Guys like Ish smith and unknown bench warmers abusing our backcourt smh

Grant is the type of guard that would push the tempo he has just played so bad when he has been on the floor. Turnover prone and can't shoot to save his life. Considering his draft position we shouldn't have expected much but I know on the Knicks forum people believed he would steal Calderon's starting spot quickly.

Crackadalic
03-01-2016, 04:08 PM
Yup, the Knicks average 15.2 drives per game, BY FAR the lowest in the league. Im sure thats heavily on Calderon (its always been a knock on him and why I classify him more as a distributor/facilitator than a playmaker) but what about the system?.

It's a combination of both sadly

Crackadalic
03-01-2016, 04:12 PM
Grant is the type of guard that would push the tempo he has just played so bad when he has been on the floor. Turnover prone and can't shoot to save his life. Considering his draft position we shouldn't have expected much but I know on the Knicks forum people believed he would steal Calderon's starting spot quickly.

The problem with grant is he is a pick and roll pg playing in the triangle.

D-Leethal
03-01-2016, 05:16 PM
the knicks do not have a pick this year but own all there picks after that. I don't think Phil had a choice when it came to Melo. Dolan wasn't going to lose his star IMO. Phil did make a bunch of public statements that basically said Melo should sign at a discount but Melo wasn't being shamed out of his money.

I think keeping Melo was the right move at the time. He was coming off a great season and Phil walked into a team missing its 1st rounder in year 1 and year 3 - tanking isn't really a viable strategy when you own 1 pick in 3 years. If we had all of our picks I am sure an organic rebuild would have been more of an option.


i mean when was the last time NY even traded a pick? 2013?

We haven't traded them since 2014 because they were all gone at that point (can't trade picks consecutive years) unless we were trading picks 4-6 years in the future which is not something teams like us with a giant ? for the future are in a position to do.

ewing
03-02-2016, 05:28 AM
Yup, the Knicks average 15.2 drives per game, BY FAR the lowest in the league. Im sure thats heavily on Calderon (its always been a knock on him and why I classify him more as a distributor/facilitator than a playmaker) but what about the system?.

knicks fans and media are in love with talking **** about the triangle but truth is it doesn't matter and when it did matter this year the knicks were better. Right now they look to run quick offense first then if they cant get something off transition or screen roll they run offense. At the start of the year they played real slow down offense and look mechanical out there at times trying to run so much triangle. they also control tempo, kept the floor balanced, got stops, and won a couple games. playing a more open style and running less triangle has only exposed their lack of talent at guard more.