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Rivera
02-22-2016, 02:34 PM
I love KD as much as anyone. He's one of my favorite players. He is efficient and puts up great #s. He's widely considered as a top 5 player (order is debatable but he's in there) but is he over rated?

He doesn't have any fire or drive. When I see Westbrook I see someone who gets the ball and says get out of my way. Lebron does the same as well when it's needed. But I rarely see that from KD. When it's winning time or his team needs him I never see him demand the ball. He has a very soft demeanor and seems to let others be the captain of the ship instead of taking control. I honestly think that's holding him back from being the best player in the league today.

Am I wrong for thinking this and thinking he is a tad over rated?

IndyRealist
02-22-2016, 02:49 PM
No. It's not easy to demand the ball when you have a ball dominant PG. I mean, Westbrook can just waive him off and take the shot himself and no one is going to say anything about it.

tredigs
02-22-2016, 02:50 PM
That's completely untrue. I have seen KD take over countless games in the clutch and take/make countless game winners. Westbrook has always been the fire-starter (and would be that way on every team he plays for in the NBA), but Durant certainly does not shy away from a moment. This season for the first time, however, Westbrook has been a bit better than he has. But he's also been better than Lebron, or anyone else not named Curry.

ewing
02-22-2016, 02:57 PM
he's very good

PhillyFaninLA
02-22-2016, 02:57 PM
I think Westbrook is the reason this topic is a valid one. You can't win a title with Westbrook....I would have traded him by now. Durant and OKC will be better trading him for a quality PG and picks.

colinskik
02-22-2016, 03:03 PM
I think Westbrook is the reason this topic is a valid one. You can't win a title with Westbrook....I would have traded him by now. Durant and OKC will be better trading him for a quality PG and picks.

This argument is so tired. And you went above and beyond by not providing any useful insight. Great job.

kdspurman
02-22-2016, 03:08 PM
Overrated may be the wrong word to use. He's amazing frankly. I think there are times where he can make more of an effort to get the ball late in games when WB has it , especially in crunch time situations.

Like against Indy recently, he had just hit a 3... Then down 3 after they hit FT's, the ball goes to WB who has to heave one up. There are just certain instances where Durant should have the ball in his hands. He's more likely to hit a clutch shot when needed

Tony_Starks
02-22-2016, 03:27 PM
Everybody doesn't have to breathe fire like Kobe or Westbrook. Lebron is passive at times and has 2 rings. Dirk is fairly mild mannered, not even as talented as KD, and still has a ring to show for it. It's about knowing when to assert yourself, not necessarily being in beast mode the entire game. He'll figure it out.

KD is one of the greatest ever, had management not made a colossal screw up and gave away Harden he would have a couple rings to his name right now.

phantasyyy
02-22-2016, 03:32 PM
I think Westbrook is the reason this topic is a valid one. You can't win a title with Westbrook....I would have traded him by now. Durant and OKC will be better trading him for a quality PG and picks.

Westbrook arguably has become more important to that Thunder team than Durant has this season. I mean this belief that WB is a detriment to that team is real tiresome. Its similair to Lebron fans continuing to state that he has the ability to guard 1-5..

Honnestly i think OKC's problem is that they dont have a consistent 3rd option to help alleviate the scoring pressure - I mean they DO have Kanter but he just gets butchered on the defensive end and Ibaka does have a smooth jumper but pretty much no post game. They also get absolutely no production from the 2guard slot. - Waiter is wildy inconsistent, Roberson cant shoot and Marrow/Singler cant guard

shep33
02-22-2016, 03:46 PM
I just hope this doesn't turn into a Russy bash-fest.

PowerHouse
02-22-2016, 03:51 PM
Skill wise he's not over-rated. He just doesnt have that fire in the belly.

IndyRealist
02-22-2016, 03:51 PM
Everybody doesn't have to breathe fire like Kobe or Westbrook. Lebron is passive at times and has 2 rings. Dirk is fairly mild mannered, not even as talented as KD, and still has a ring to show for it. It's about knowing when to assert yourself, not necessarily being in beast mode the entire game. He'll figure it out.

KD is one of the greatest ever, had management not made a colossal screw up and gave away Harden he would have a couple rings to his name right now.

There is a point here that deserves reiterating: no matter how individually talented a player is, he can only do so much when management effs up.

DanG
02-22-2016, 03:53 PM
Durant definitely doesn't shy away from big moments, but I get what you're saying. I completely agree he has to be more selfish with the talent he has. There are stretches where he is way too passive during games and lets players like Waiters or Ibaka take the shots he should be taking. I have to say though his team isn't really helping him either because it sucks outside of Westbrook.

Scoots
02-22-2016, 03:56 PM
Skill wise he's not over-rated. He just doesnt have that fire in the belly.

And that's what people thought/think about Duncan. Just because he's not woofing doesn't mean he's not burning.

Vee-Rex
02-22-2016, 04:22 PM
Durant is not overrated. Period.

With that said, he absolutely does not have that leadership quality in him that would take him to the next level. Sure, he can take over games, but can he control his teammates? It's not about barking or screaming or anything like that - it's the fact that he's willing to defer to a lesser player on the team. That is not what you want from someone as insanely talented as Durant. You want him to be able to direct and criticize his teammates when it's needed, and I haven't seen him do that. It's an ugly necessity needed from leaders.

I'm not talking about this year, because Westie is playing at the highest level. From an efficiency standpoint, 2012-13 was the best year of Durant's career. Yet, he still allowed Westbrook to dominate the ball and put up more shots. And he was clearly the better player over Westbrook.

People like Kobe and Bron would not allow that to happen. After Miami's first run, even Wade decided to defer to LeBron on the court, and they were able to win rings. When Westbrook is shooting 42-43% from the field, OKC benefits more from him shooting a bit less and locking down on defense while focusing on passing and rebounding.

This year, Westbrook is playing well enough to warrant the same shot attempts as Durant. But everyone knows (because of previous years) that even when he DIDN'T warrant the same shot attempts, Durant didn't address it as an issue. Durant didn't fight it. Durant didn't hold Westbrook accountable for hogging or shooting far more than he should have done in those years. THAT's the issue here, and IMO it's a valid one.

naps
02-22-2016, 05:09 PM
What I think is that KD just is not the same player he was 2 years ago when he won the MVP. I mean he is still great and one of the very fine players in the league but I do think he lost a step or two since that injury.

DboneG
02-22-2016, 07:37 PM
Anybody that think KD is overrated don't know basketball! And if you watched his last game, he fell and tweaked his foot or ankle, and he was still out there. So, maybe that's what you were looking at.

DboneG
02-22-2016, 07:45 PM
What I think is that KD just is not the same player he was 2 years ago when he won the MVP. I mean he is still great and one of the very fine players in the league but I do think he lost a step or two since that injury.


Correct. It could still be a problem. The doctor says: "It's fine"...but, who knows...KD could still feel something when he cut, or make hard stops...just saying. Yes, "It's fine" for normal walking, and just living a normal life. But, playing in the NBA is another story.

PowerHouse
02-22-2016, 07:58 PM
And that's what people thought/think about Duncan. Just because he's not woofing doesn't mean he's not burning.

Duncan won titles early in his career. I don't recall people thinking like that about Duncan.

Munkeysuit
02-22-2016, 08:00 PM
I understand why people may say he's overrated but what I think is really happening is that he's allowing Russ Westbrook to be more engaging in the play making and in the process KD is getting less touches. I mean I haven't forgotten how awesome KD is! I mean the dude is a former MVP of the league, so there is no doubt in my mind that he's capable of such greatness because it has been proven!
Go and check on Kanter's and Adam's touches in the paint, they've increased! go and check on KD's shots per game, they've decreased! so there you have it! Oh and let me also add that KD's free throws per game total has dropped as well!

Scoots
02-22-2016, 08:11 PM
Duncan won titles early in his career. I don't recall people thinking like that about Duncan.
People thought he wasn't passionate about the game because he played it cool and wasn't jawing and waving his arms and celebrating.

Shammyguy3
02-22-2016, 08:16 PM
You can lead with his demeanor. He's not overrated.


I really hope Westbrook/Durant end up joining separate teams at some point.

5ass
02-22-2016, 08:26 PM
What I think is that KD just is not the same player he was 2 years ago when he won the MVP. I mean he is still great and one of the very fine players in the league but I do think he lost a step or two since that injury.

Yea I'm pretty sure he lost some quickness.

blahblahyoutoo
02-22-2016, 09:17 PM
he's like a more talented and athletic melo. great individual player, but can't lead a time to a title.

Shammyguy3
02-22-2016, 11:12 PM
he's like a more talented and athletic melo. great individual player, but can't lead a time to a title.

he's pretty much better than Melo at everything; how can't he lead a team to a title?

blahblahyoutoo
02-22-2016, 11:15 PM
he's pretty much better than Melo at everything; how can't he lead a team to a title?

just not seeing it happening unless there is a huge personnel change around him to help him out. he's an elite scorer, but i haven't seen him "take over a game" on a more regular basis.
he has more quiet high scoring games, than dominant ones, if you catch my drift.

also, for someone with his length, i expected him to have a bigger impact on defense as well.

Shammyguy3
02-23-2016, 12:36 AM
just not seeing it happening unless there is a huge personnel change around him to help him out. he's an elite scorer, but i haven't seen him "take over a game" on a more regular basis.
he has more quiet high scoring games, than dominant ones, if you catch my drift.

also, for someone with his length, i expected him to have a bigger impact on defense as well.

he takes over countless games, you just aren't watching them. I couldn't care less how quiet he scores. Points are points. He's averaging what, over 27 points per game on his career on historic efficiency levels (not Carmelo Anthony levels).

Durant's impact on defense is a net positive. He doesn't need to be Jordan or Duncan.


The bolded shows to me you recognize it's not Durant that is the problem with leading a team, it's the front office's ability to construct the proper roster (as is with any player in the game)

KingPosey
02-23-2016, 01:26 AM
Duncan won titles early in his career. I don't recall people thinking like that about Duncan.

I mean he literally just won one, but yes, he won multiple earlier on.

PhillyFaninLA
02-23-2016, 06:53 AM
Westbrook arguably has become more important to that Thunder team than Durant has this season. I mean this belief that WB is a detriment to that team is real tiresome. Its similair to Lebron fans continuing to state that he has the ability to guard 1-5..

Honnestly i think OKC's problem is that they dont have a consistent 3rd option to help alleviate the scoring pressure - I mean they DO have Kanter but he just gets butchered on the defensive end and Ibaka does have a smooth jumper but pretty much no post game. They also get absolutely no production from the 2guard slot. - Waiter is wildy inconsistent, Roberson cant shoot and Marrow/Singler cant guard


You bring up a valid argument but I stand by what I said. The most important thing a PG can do is make an offense better and more seamless. Westbrook is to arrogant. Arrogant offensive minded players can go very far, can lead teams close, but at the end of the day don't allow a team to be a team, that is why Owens and Moss don't have superbowl rings and Melo doesn't have an NBA championship. Team US was to good and the talent gap was so huge and Melo almost cost Team US a chance to go the gold medal game, he got lazy and was pulled, then US shut down Spain. My point is, even with the huge talent gap between the teams, Melo not playing any defense hurt the team, let Spain go on a run, and had Melo not been pulled and the team allowed to play as a team the talent gap would not have mattered. I am not trying to bash Melo, I am just making a point on what I said about Westbrook.

Certain players are fantastic and potential hall of famers but the selfishness and arrogance hurts the team ability to play as a team. Westbrook won't win a title but Durant can.

PowerHouse
02-23-2016, 10:30 AM
I mean he literally just won one, but yes, he won multiple earlier on.

2 rings in the first 6 years.

IndyRealist
02-23-2016, 11:20 AM
You bring up a valid argument but I stand by what I said. The most important thing a PG can do is make an offense better and more seamless. Westbrook is to arrogant. Arrogant offensive minded players can go very far, can lead teams close, but at the end of the day don't allow a team to be a team, that is why Owens and Moss don't have superbowl rings and Melo doesn't have an NBA championship. Team US was to good and the talent gap was so huge and Melo almost cost Team US a chance to go the gold medal game, he got lazy and was pulled, then US shut down Spain. My point is, even with the huge talent gap between the teams, Melo not playing any defense hurt the team, let Spain go on a run, and had Melo not been pulled and the team allowed to play as a team the talent gap would not have mattered. I am not trying to bash Melo, I am just making a point on what I said about Westbrook.

Certain players are fantastic and potential hall of famers but the selfishness and arrogance hurts the team ability to play as a team. Westbrook won't win a title but Durant can.

I don't think you can draw parallels between Melo and Westbrook/Durant.

Tony_Starks
02-23-2016, 11:32 AM
There is a point here that deserves reiterating: no matter how individually talented a player is, he can only do so much when management effs up.


True that. As eff ups go that was a pretty royal one. KD/ Russ/ Harden and filler would've been taking trips to the Finals on and off for like a decade. Cost them at bare minimum 1 ring.

That's why I believe KD will bounce. Management has had years to make up for that blunder but all the moves have pretty much been lateral.

If luck should fall our way and we get Simmons things are going to get very interesting this summer....

PhillyFaninLA
02-23-2016, 11:46 AM
I don't think you can draw parallels between Melo and Westbrook/Durant.

I was drawing parallels to an intangible quality that will prevent both Westbrook and Melo from ever winning an NBA title, and the same intangible that is why the same type of player in other sports don't end up with rings

Can you explain why you don't think I can draw a parallel? (real question)

Rivera
02-23-2016, 11:56 AM
Awesome discussion guys. A lot of good opinions on here and it's been kept really civil. Enjoy reading this

bklynny67
02-23-2016, 12:00 PM
This thread. Dumb?

kobe4thewinbang
02-23-2016, 01:00 PM
He is definitely not as aggressive as he should be. Imagine if he had LeBron's intensity or Curry's confidence. Remember when Tony Allen flustered him? I think he's never been the same since then.

Dade County
02-23-2016, 01:40 PM
This team would have won 2 titles by now...

West
Harden
KD
Green
Ibaka

All KD has to do is bring up this at the end of the year to the OKC front office & tell them thats why i'm leaving.

Perkins was a bad move, but what can you say they wanted a big man. But OKC had the team of the future, & now people want them to trade Westbrook.

People will look back at the OKC organization as a bif fail, 7yrs from now.

Tony_Starks
02-23-2016, 03:22 PM
He is definitely not as aggressive as he should be. Imagine if he had LeBron's intensity or Curry's confidence. Remember when Tony Allen flustered him? I think he's never been the same since then.

*sidenote

Do you really want Demar?

Clarkson is going to end up just as good if not better imo

kobe4thewinbang
02-23-2016, 03:53 PM
*sidenote

Do you really want Demar?

Clarkson is going to end up just as good if not better imoI like DeRozan's game. I think he's going to excel soon. It's not so much that I want DeRozan as it is that I want something to smile about with the Lakers. This has been a dark age.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
02-23-2016, 03:55 PM
he's pretty much better than Melo at everything; how can't he lead a team to a title?

Show me one highlight of KD postin someone up.

Show me one highlight of KD bangin in the paint.

tredigs
02-23-2016, 04:02 PM
Show me one highlight of KD postin someone up.

Show me one highlight of KD bangin in the paint.

You kidding right now? You've never seen KD post-up lmfao?

Regardless, random game nuances aside, KD is overall significantly better than Melo on offense and defense.

mngopher35
02-23-2016, 04:04 PM
I was drawing parallels to an intangible quality that will prevent both Westbrook and Melo from ever winning an NBA title, and the same intangible that is why the same type of player in other sports don't end up with rings

Can you explain why you don't think I can draw a parallel? (real question)

I think the biggest reason it doesn't compare is how much Westbrook creates for others and how much the team as a whole relies on him on that end. You are comparing a scorer to an all around pg. Westbrook is currently averaging 10 apg with 49.5 ast% which is clearly way out of Melo's league when it comes to creating for others. This is also helped showed by the fact that the offensive rating for OKC is 11 points higher with Westbrook on the court compared to off the court (which Melo never came close to). Since 2012 he has been over +10 twice, +7 twice, and +4.7 as well. Melo has had 3 seasons total over the 4.7 mark and none over +7 offensively. This helps show that Westbrook is more important to his offenses success and that is because of how much attention he draws and creates for others.

They have very different styles and are relied upon to create in a much different way (melo for himself, Westy for everyone). You say Westbrook is too arrogant to make the offense better or more seamless but I don't understand where that comes from and it definitely isn't supported above.

tredigs
02-23-2016, 04:08 PM
Here AIMel (that s/n should tell me all I need to know tbh), begin your education on MVP Kevin Durant (nearly a decade into his career lol). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_muizwtF7w

phantasyyy
02-23-2016, 04:09 PM
You bring up a valid argument but I stand by what I said. The most important thing a PG can do is make an offense better and more seamless. Westbrook is to arrogant. Arrogant offensive minded players can go very far, can lead teams close, but at the end of the day don't allow a team to be a team, that is why Owens and Moss don't have superbowl rings and Melo doesn't have an NBA championship. Team US was to good and the talent gap was so huge and Melo almost cost Team US a chance to go the gold medal game, he got lazy and was pulled, then US shut down Spain. My point is, even with the huge talent gap between the teams, Melo not playing any defense hurt the team, let Spain go on a run, and had Melo not been pulled and the team allowed to play as a team the talent gap would not have mattered. I am not trying to bash Melo, I am just making a point on what I said about Westbrook.

Certain players are fantastic and potential hall of famers but the selfishness and arrogance hurts the team ability to play as a team. Westbrook won't win a title but Durant can.

You do realize that Westbrook has a 49.5 assist % right? You say that a PG's job to make the offense better and seamless and that is EXACTLY what he does. I mean without him, where would any of the offense generate come from besides KD? Adams/Ibaka have no post moves and cant create for themselves other than the open jumper or roll option WB creates. As i mention previously their 2 guard slot is pretty much non existant and their bench is absolutely terrible. The only knock you can probably put on WB is that he is currently only shooting 30% from 3 on 4 attempts per game. But then again his willingness to shoot it opens up the driving lanes for himself there.

The problem with the Thunder is mainly due to their defense. They just dont have the chops to play consistent D and usually games revolve around them trying to outscore their opponents since the have 2 close to unstoppable iso players in WB and KD.


You can lead with his demeanor. He's not overrated.


I really hope Westbrook/Durant end up joining separate teams at some point.

I also agree, how funny would it be for KD to leave this year and WB the next.. OKC has really just shat the bed in terms of building aroudn their core of KD/WB/Ibaka. The Kanter resigning reeeked of desperation of years of giving up premium talent to save money only to put their eggs into the wrong basket.

phantasyyy
02-23-2016, 04:13 PM
ESPN anaylsts David Lloyd and Cari Champion did a segment on top 5 players to build a team around and neither have KD on the lists... Its crazy how a former MVP has become so underrated, Cari even had the audacity to say he has no heart..

Both lists contain Draymond Green, though..
http://uproxx.com/dimemag/damian-lillard-kevin-durant-cari-champion-sportscenter-host/

Tony_Starks
02-23-2016, 04:49 PM
ESPN anaylsts David Lloyd and Cari Champion did a segment on top 5 players to build a team around and neither have KD on the lists... Its crazy how a former MVP has become so underrated, Cari even had the audacity to say he has no heart..

Both lists contain Draymond Green, though..
http://uproxx.com/dimemag/damian-lillard-kevin-durant-cari-champion-sportscenter-host/


I love me some Cari but she's on that crack if she really believes that. If he's not top 5 idk what is.

Him and Russ are actually both top 5, that's what makes the Harden debacle so egregious

Scoots
02-23-2016, 05:28 PM
I love me some Cari but she's on that crack if she really believes that. If he's not top 5 idk what is.

Him and Russ are actually both top 5, that's what makes the Harden debacle so egregious

I think the idea is that top 5 players and top 5 to build around are different. Age is a major factor, as well as how they play the game and get along with others.

Also one of them picked LeBron and I don't think anybody, given the choice from every player in the NBA would start with LeBron because of age.

That said, KD would make my list of top 5 to build around.

phantasyyy
02-23-2016, 05:50 PM
I think the idea is that top 5 players and top 5 to build around are different. Age is a major factor, as well as how they play the game and get along with others.

Also one of them picked LeBron and I don't think anybody, given the choice from every player in the NBA would start with LeBron because of age.

That said, KD would make my list of top 5 to build around.

Even given his age i'd probably still have him #5 with Westbrook, Durant, Curry, and Davis ahead of him

mngopher35
02-23-2016, 06:39 PM
Even given his age i'd probably still have him #5 with Westbrook, Durant, Curry, and Davis ahead of him

It could just be the homer within but I honestly would consider KAT over Lebron due to age more than anything obviously. His rookie year is probably the best for a rookie big man since Duncan (statistically it's actually close to Duncans as well) while also having the qualities you want from that position in today's game. If I take Lebron I get a couple more elite years but a constant decline (even if currently slow, bound to pick up soon). Khawi would be up there too since he's getting close to his level but younger. Green is interesting choice because he gives so many options for a team to be versatile but getting a superstar like Kd is more important imo.

Either way though you are right Durant should be on that list.

Scoots
02-23-2016, 06:47 PM
Even given his age i'd probably still have him #5 with Westbrook, Durant, Curry, and Davis ahead of him

So you agree with me :) With every player in the NBA available to start a team you wouldn't pick LeBron. If you were 5th in line and Curry, KD, Westy, and AD were gone you'd "probably" go with LeBron. I don't know who I'd put at #5 ... PG maybe? Kawhi?

How far down would we have to go to get to Griffin, Cousins, or Harden as your starting piece with the beating their reputations have taken?

Scoots
02-23-2016, 06:49 PM
It could just be the homer within but I honestly would consider KAT over Lebron due to age more than anything obviously. His rookie year is probably the best for a rookie big man since Duncan (statistically it's actually close to Duncans as well) while also having the qualities you want from that position in today's game. If I take Lebron I get a couple more elite years but a constant decline (even if currently slow, bound to pick up soon). Khawi would be up there too since he's getting close to his level but younger. Green is interesting choice because he gives so many options for a team to be versatile but getting a superstar like Kd is more important imo.

Either way though you are right Durant should be on that list.

I'm not a Wolves fan, but KAT should be in there fairly high just based on potential I agree. Not top 5, but fairly high.

Sportsguy9695
02-23-2016, 07:12 PM
I agree he is a little over rated. he does need to have that want for the ball more when the game is on the line. but he is a very good player. top 5 or 10 in the league for sure

Forever35
02-23-2016, 07:51 PM
No way is he overated... His era has the main name Lebron with, the Spurs, the Lakers at their tail end and now throw in currently the Warriors... He's not a chucker, he plays very good defense, great bball IQ and in my eyes plays with as much passion as he can...

If I had to build a team around either LeBron, KD or Curry, I'd close my eyes and do eeeny meeeny miny moe... Can't go wrong with any choice...

mngopher35
02-23-2016, 08:03 PM
I'm not a Wolves fan, but KAT should be in there fairly high just based on potential I agree. Not top 5, but fairly high.

Ya I can see not top 5 yet especially since it would be off expectations/potential. I still don't think I would take maybe 2-3 years of an elite Lebron plus some heavier decline years over this rookie big with production and talent that is close to rookie Davis/Duncan but with a 3 pt shot.

Again though I'm huge on Towns ability so that could play into it but I think it makes sense due to age difference and what we have seen so far of him (honestly 10 year career with only a bit of improvement would be better than what Lebron has left IMO).

phantasyyy
02-23-2016, 08:06 PM
So you agree with me :) With every player in the NBA available to start a team you wouldn't pick LeBron. If you were 5th in line and Curry, KD, Westy, and AD were gone you'd "probably" go with LeBron. I don't know who I'd put at #5 ... PG maybe? Kawhi?

How far down would we have to go to get to Griffin, Cousins, or Harden as your starting piece with the beating their reputations have taken?

Fair point hahaha Bron Bron would be like 5-7th option at best really no case for him above the 4 theyre all pretty much in their own tiers in terms of starting a team with.

Then, Bron, PG, and Kawhi in the next tier

Then, Griffin, Towns, Cousins, ......whole bunch of other players.... before I get to Harden-lmao hes a great offensive player but I reallly wouldnt be able to support a doorstop on defense from my star.

Kyben36
02-23-2016, 08:23 PM
I have said this for a VERY VERY LONG TIME. DURRANT IS AN OVER RATED SHOT JACKER AND OFFENSIVE KILLER.

I SAID HE IS A BIGGER BETTER BEN GORDON FOR YEARS. GREAT SCORER BUT NO NUMBER ONE OPTION. VERY SIMILAR TO MELO IN THAT HE WILL NEVER LEAD A TEAM ANYWHERE.

I THINK THE THUNDERS BIG ISSUES RELLY IN HIM AND WESTBROOK GETTING INTO SHOOTING CONTEST AND KILLING THE OFFENSE.

mngopher35
02-23-2016, 08:32 PM
I feel like it should be mentioned okc is currently 2nd in offensive rating as a team and kd is easily above the team average in that department with very high volume while westy is at that level while creating for everyone.

I just don't get why there seems to be such focus on their offense when it's their d that holds them back. Westy is a fantastic pg who creates looks for everyone while taking attention with relentless attacking. Kd is an elite wing scorer who has lead the league in that category and also had the 50-40-90 line at least once as well (aka efficient high volume scoring). He can do a lot of damage on and off ball as well so it actually fits with Westbrook to an extent. Basically offense is not their main problem.

papipapsmanny
02-23-2016, 08:43 PM
Problem is he is much more efficient then Westbrook, yet they take about the same about of shots per game.

Too many times do I see the ball not flow through Durant's hands during an offensive possession.

Durant is fine, but I believe we would thrive with a pass first PG, and good shooting 2, and someone down low to grab boards, and on offense the ball flow through him on each half court possession

papipapsmanny
02-23-2016, 08:46 PM
I have said this for a VERY VERY LONG TIME. DURRANT IS AN OVER RATED SHOT JACKER AND OFFENSIVE KILLER.

I SAID HE IS A BIGGER BETTER BEN GORDON FOR YEARS. GREAT SCORER BUT NO NUMBER ONE OPTION. VERY SIMILAR TO MELO IN THAT HE WILL NEVER LEAD A TEAM ANYWHERE.

I THINK THE THUNDERS BIG ISSUES RELLY IN HIM AND WESTBROOK GETTING INTO SHOOTING CONTEST AND KILLING THE OFFENSE.

Oh yeah he just shoots 51% from the field and 40% from 3.... yeah he is a real inefficient chucker

Scoots
02-23-2016, 09:03 PM
Oh yeah he just shoots 51% from the field and 40% from 3.... yeah he is a real inefficient chucker

Best not to feed the troll :)

Scoots
02-23-2016, 09:04 PM
Ya I can see not top 5 yet especially since it would be off expectations/potential. I still don't think I would take maybe 2-3 years of an elite Lebron plus some heavier decline years over this rookie big with production and talent that is close to rookie Davis/Duncan but with a 3 pt shot.

Again though I'm huge on Towns ability so that could play into it but I think it makes sense due to age difference and what we have seen so far of him (honestly 10 year career with only a bit of improvement would be better than what Lebron has left IMO).

Thinking about it more I think I'd have Towns in my top 10 above Griffin and Cousins.

Kyben36
02-23-2016, 10:11 PM
Oh yeah he just shoots 51% from the field and 40% from 3.... yeah he is a real inefficient chucker

dont put words in my mouth, never said he was inefficient, in fact, he is one of the best scorers of all time. but that does not mean your a #1 option, MVP, or you can lead a team to victory,

do you not watch that offense, every other time down the floor its him or westbrook in one v one. its not an offense, its not a team. you cant build around him and win in the playoffs, and in that fact, he is not a #1 option, on a team, and thusly, over rated.

IF HE GOES TO GS, he will kill their offense. he will stop the ball movement, and jack shots, sure he will score at an effecient rate. but when the offense does not flow, good shots dont come. which is why GS is so good.

JasonJohnHorn
02-23-2016, 11:41 PM
If you rank him any higher than the second best player in the world, then you would be overrating him. That title belongs to Curry right now.


I you rank him any lower than top three, I think you are undervaluing him.

He shoots 3's at about .400, he's over .500 from inside the arc, he's among the best FT shooters in the league. He also hands out 4.5 assists a game, and despite having the ball in on no less than 30 possession a game, he only commits 3.2 turnovers. I'd offensively, you'd have a hard time finding somebody other than Curry who you could say was a better offensive player.



On the other end of the court, he is among the best rebounders at his position, hauling in 7.3 a game. He's also a good shot blocker and gets about a steal a game, and though he's no MJ on defense, or even prime LeBron on D, he's is a solid defender as well.


Westbrook is a great talent, but he scores far fewer points with the same number of shots, despite also getting to the line more. He's a great rebounder and defender, yes, and a solid play maker. I'd have the guy in my top five or six for sure. But he's not as good as Durant.



the only way you could overrate KD is by saying that he's he best player on the planet. And I don't hear that too often.

Scoots
02-24-2016, 12:53 AM
Westbrook is a great talent, but he scores far fewer points with the same number of shots, despite also getting to the line more. He's a great rebounder and defender, yes, and a solid play maker. I'd have the guy in my top five or six for sure.

Westbrook is not a great defender. He's an active and willing defender, but he's not great.

FOXHOUND
02-24-2016, 03:09 AM
Really? No, in no way is Durant underrated. The only thing that has truly kept the Thunder from competing for titles the last 3 seasons has been key injuries to their top 3 players during the postseason, and the lack of depth to overcome those odds against some very strong west teams. The Thunder have been a better team since the Harden trade, which is reflected in their records and improved play on both sides of the court. Would it have been great to have him to help offset those injuries? Sure, but you don't exactly build a team expecting injuries to your top players.

Durant is still better than Westbrook, I think people forget some important things. For example, two years ago when WB was out hurt, the Thunder were still great. Why? Because Durant dominated at an all time level and carried them.

In the 36 games that Westbrook missed in 2013-14 the Thunder went 25-11, including 22-8 in the games that they found their true lineup of Jackson-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins. Before you try to put the Reggie Jackson of today in a time machine, in his 36 starts that year he averaged 14.5 PPG, 5.1 AST and 3.7 REB on a shooting line of .425/.320/.830 with 2.6 TO's.

Last year, when Durant played, the Thunder went 18-9 vs 27-28 when he didn't with Westbrook running the show while putting up great individual numbers. Think Westbrook's jump this year changed this? Not really, as the Thunder are 37-12 this year when Durant plays vs 3-4 when he hasn't.

The truth of the matter is simple. The Thunder have a very thin roster heavily reliant on their star duo. Durant is truly an all-time great player, he's going to end up very high on that arbitrary list. Westbrook himself is also great and if he keeps up his current level for a nice amount should end up as one of the best PG's and players ever himself. Thing is, WB has more flaws and is less efficient. He's more prone to that 5-18 game with 5 TO's, where as Durant almost never has those.

In terms of WB "running the team", that's simply a matter of fit. Westbrook is great, but he can only play one way. If he's off the ball, he's not very dangerous. If he has the ball, he's extremely dangerous both individually and with his passing. Durant? He's just as dangerous either way and they are at their best when both are firing on all cylinders. Westbrook is the PG, he's going to have the ball more and run the offense. Doesn't mean he's the one more vital to their success because that has always been and will likely always be Kevin Durant.