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*Silver&Black*
02-17-2016, 10:52 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers have been gauging the trade value of Jahlil Okafor ahead of the deadline.

The 76ers selected Okafor with the third overall pick last June.

Okafor said less than 24 hours ahead of the deadline that he hadn't really thought about the event.

It was previously reported that the 76ers would likely wait until they can assess the health of Joel Embiid before making a decision on the future of either Okafor or Nerlens Noel.

The Miami Heat were a team that has expressed interest in Okafor this season.
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ewing
02-17-2016, 10:54 PM
solid idea. they need to reset things. bottom out and start over :clap: maybe they can eat a long term contract to get an extra pick

MagicBucsSox
02-17-2016, 11:21 PM
Orlando should trade them Vucevic back lol

Lakers + Giants
02-17-2016, 11:33 PM
:drool:

Impossible for us tho

Ty22Mitchell
02-17-2016, 11:35 PM
Am I the only one who is hoping they get Ben Simmons just for the lulz?

Okafor, Noel, Embid, Saric...... Wait for it........ And Simmons.... Talk about spacing, lol.

Good luck getting equal value back when everyone knows you're a seller. lol

flea
02-17-2016, 11:35 PM
solid idea. they need to reset things. bottom out and start over :clap: maybe they can eat a long term contract to get an extra pick

They've got to rebuild their rebuild, Hinke says if you stack a rebuild on top of a rebuild then the newly rebuilt structure will support many more wins. He has a spreadsheet and everything what could possibly go wrong?

Ty22Mitchell
02-17-2016, 11:37 PM
They've got to rebuild their rebuild, Hinke says if you stack a rebuild on top of a rebuild then the newly rebuilt structure will support many more wins. He has a spreadsheet and everything what could possibly go wrong?

Is that a real quote?

flea
02-17-2016, 11:50 PM
Is that a real quote?

Might as well be, dude has no idea how to run an organization. His idea of winning is losing until magic happens.

sixer04fan
02-17-2016, 11:50 PM
Non-story. It's the GM's job to gauge the trade value of every player on his roster. That's literally his job. Nowhere does it say we're shopping him or taking offers for him. This time of year, every player that's worth discussing has been discussed with every team. Unless you got like Lebron, Steph, or maybe 3-5 other players in the league.

raiderposting
02-17-2016, 11:54 PM
Randle, clarkson, Lou will

Lol

Ty22Mitchell
02-17-2016, 11:57 PM
Randle, clarkson, Lou will

Lol

*and a player to be named later

flea
02-17-2016, 11:58 PM
Non-story. It's the GM's job to gauge the trade value of every player on his roster. That's literally his job. Nowhere does it say we're shopping him or taking offers for him. This time of year, every player that's worth discussing has been discussed with every team. Unless you got like Lebron, Steph, or maybe 3-5 other players in the league.

Do you think the Wolves are listening on Towns and Wiggins? Or the Magic on Gordon? Or the Blazers on Lillard? Or the Lakers on Russell? Or the Nuggets on Mudiay? Seriously doubt it, those teams are trying to build continuity and develop their players. Or at least they should be.

What they shouldn't be doing is fielding D-League rosters year after year and wondering why nobody has broken out.

Ty22Mitchell
02-18-2016, 12:00 AM
Might as well be, dude has no idea how to run an organization. His idea of winning is losing until magic happens.

True. It's hard to believe they've tanked this long and haven't even developed a legit NBA player yet. They're stuck tanking because they can't develop talent.

bucketss
02-18-2016, 12:04 AM
i guess okafor was getting too old..

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 12:14 AM
Do you think the Wolves are listening on Towns and Wiggins? Or the Magic on Gordon? Or the Blazers on Lillard? Or the Lakers on Russell? Or the Nuggets on Mudiay? Seriously doubt it, those teams are trying to build continuity and develop their players. Or at least they should be.

What they shouldn't be doing is fielding D-League rosters year after year and wondering why nobody has broken out.

Well, the Magic offered AG and Vucevic for Blake Griffin, a much more legit and substantial rumor... So yes.

And I'm sorry did this report say we traded Okafor? Since when is gauging value and developing a player mutually exclusive?

Gauging value is different than listening to offers or actively shopping. It's gauging value. Every GM does it with most of their players. It's common sense. Every team has called every other team and at least asked about any player they're interested in. Okafor is one of those players I'm sure.

And who have we not tried to develop besides MCW? Which we got the Lakers protected pick for, while MCW has less value than a ham sandwich right now.

ewing
02-18-2016, 12:18 AM
Well, the Magic offered AG and Vucevic for Blake Griffin, a much more legit and substantial rumor... So yes.

And I'm sorry did this report say we traded Okafor? Since when is gauging value and developing a player mutually exclusive?

Gauging value is different than listening to offers or actively shopping. It's gauging value. Every GM does it with most of their players. It's common sense. Every team has called every other team and at least asked about any player they're interested in. Okafor is one of those players I'm sure.

And who have we not tried to develop besides MCW? Which we got the Lakers protected pick for, while MCW has less value than a ham sandwich right now.


hey man if you think the sixers are doing a great job, cool. enjoy the show

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 12:33 AM
hey man if you think the sixers are doing a great job, cool. enjoy the show

What? Good one? It's interesting that you didn't respond to any point that I actually said.

All I'm saying is that gauging the value of your players around the league at the trade deadline is common sense ordinary. Teams call you, you calls teams, you discuss your assets and theirs. It happens.

I guarantee Porzingis' value has been discussed with teams too. Does that mean Phil Jackson has no idea what he's doing? Should we be trashing the Knicks for it? No. It's just his job to explore all opportunities.

More-Than-Most
02-18-2016, 12:35 AM
hey man if you think the sixers are doing a great job, cool. enjoy the show

Ton of money/draft picks/OKA/Noel/Embiid/Saric... Yea I think they are doing a damn good job and have amazing talent without ever actually being bad enough or lucky enough to get the top pick... Its much better than being stuck in limbo like we were for years entering the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed and being 1 and done.

The sixers are so hated on this site its borderline ridiculous and its mostly by butthurt people who have no clue about the actual plan and just jump on the we hate sixers band wagon.

ewing
02-18-2016, 12:45 AM
Ton of money/draft picks/OKA/Noel/Embiid/Saric... Yea I think they are doing a damn good job and have amazing talent without ever actually being bad enough or lucky enough to get the top pick... Its much better than being stuck in limbo like we were for years entering the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed and being 1 and done.

The sixers are so hated on this site its borderline ridiculous and its mostly by butthurt people who have no clue about the actual plan and just jump on the we hate sixers band wagon.

you guys have the most returning talent in the league next year ( i think thats what you said). like i said enjoy the show.

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 01:02 AM
you guys have the most returning talent in the league next year ( i think thats what you said). like i said enjoy the show.

Ah I see. Well I'm not sure why I responded to you. Even though you put words in my mouth and didn't respond to any of my actual points when you quoted me, I still took a 2nd post to explain what I was talking about. Instead of going down that high road with me, you chose to ignore me, and instead troll someone else because you failed to troll me with your first post. I get it.

GunFactor187
02-18-2016, 01:14 AM
Sixers should give back Covington to the Pistons.

colinskik
02-18-2016, 01:15 AM
What? Good one? It's interesting that you didn't respond to any point that I actually said.

All I'm saying is that gauging the value of your players around the league at the trade deadline is common sense ordinary. Teams call you, you calls teams, you discuss your assets and theirs. It happens.

I guarantee Porzingis' value has been discussed with teams too. Does that mean Phil Jackson has no idea what he's doing? Should we be trashing the Knicks for it? No. It's just his job to explore all opportunities.

Except there haven't been any rumors about the Knicks gauging KP's value. Try again.

The only time you're gonna hear a rumor like this is when it's been discussed enough for it to be leaked.

And the only reason dude responded to you without directly answering your points is because it's the most efficient way to address inane reasoning.

Time and again, within the last five years, the sixers have shown they have no real plan. I actually feel bad for you and your fellow fans. This coming from Knicks fan. That says it all.

colinskik
02-18-2016, 01:20 AM
Well, the Magic offered AG and Vucevic for Blake Griffin, a much more legit and substantial rumor... So yes.

And I'm sorry did this report say we traded Okafor? Since when is gauging value and developing a player mutually exclusive?

Gauging value is different than listening to offers or actively shopping. It's gauging value. Every GM does it with most of their players. It's common sense. Every team has called every other team and at least asked about any player they're interested in. Okafor is one of those players I'm sure.

And who have we not tried to develop besides MCW? Which we got the Lakers protected pick for, while MCW has less value than a ham sandwich right now.

This is the point you're grasping ahold of?!?!

I don't remember hearing ORL try to deal GOrdon? They just shipped out Harris in part because they are trying to find more mins for Gordon. Even if we are to believe you, it's for BG. He's a major piece--different than gauging value.

And what about all the other young players dude mentioned, which you failed to argue? S

Alayla
02-18-2016, 01:47 AM
This is funny first people praise Coangleo for the Ish smith deal with no proof he had anything to do with it now a report like this comes out and everyone remembers Hinkie is still the GM again. That being said looking for good value for okafor is very smart in our position hes our best trade chip doesn't fit in with the team and we have a logjam in the front court.. how didn't anyone see this coming?

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 01:49 AM
This is the point you're grasping ahold of?!?!

I don't remember hearing ORL try to deal GOrdon? They just shipped out Harris in part because they are trying to find more mins for Gordon. Even if we are to believe you, it's for BG. He's a major piece--different than gauging value.

And what about all the other young players dude mentioned, which you failed to argue? S

I'm not grasping. And thanks for the condescending tone about feeling bad for me and Sixers fans. Really trying to have a constructive conversation I can see.

"Breaking: Team X calls Team Y to ask about availability for Player Z. Teams further discuss Player Z's value," is literally a rumor you could write about almost any player and combination of teams in the league this time of year. And it would be true.

You need to know the value of your players. With a few exceptions. If you're looking for ways to improve your team. If something doesn't happen at the trade deadline, maybe another opportunity arises with renewed interest at the draft, or next year. GMs do this all the time. "Hey, you really liked this player last year, you still interested?" Any reporter or beat writer would tell you this is common sense. GMs are always gauging the value on all their players.

The beat writer who reported this Okafor news, Tom Moore, I follow him very closely. One of his very next tweets was, in response to being asked if it's the GM's job to gauge interest on every player: "Sam Hinkie will always investigate every opportunity. It's his job and he does it."

As for the Orlando/Blake rumor. This was discussed at great length yesterday in the Harris trade thread. The Magic reporter was David Baumann. There are links all over the Internet. Yes, Blake is a major piece. There were rumors last week that the Sixers would offer Okafor for Blake. When a star is possibly available, you make a call. Again, GMs exploring opportunities, and seeing what their players are worth. Not exactly earth shattering news here.

As for KAT, Wiggins, Russell, Mudiay... Sure, I could see KAT never being discussed at all. He's as untouchable as it comes. Wiggins, maybe. Russell and Mudiay, sure. There were wide spread rumors last month that Russell was available. Some things get leaked, some things don't.

eDush
02-18-2016, 01:56 AM
I'm not grasping. And thanks for the condescending tone about feeling bad for me and Sixers fans. Really trying to have a constructive conversation I can see.

"Breaking: Team X calls Team Y to ask about availability for Player Z. Teams further discuss Player Z's value," is literally a rumor you could write about almost any player and combination of teams in the league this time of year. And it would be true.

You need to know the value of your players. With a few exceptions. If you're looking for ways to improve your team. If something doesn't happen at the trade deadline, maybe another opportunity arises with renewed interest at the draft, or next year. GMs do this all the time. "Hey, you really liked this player last year, you still interested?" Any reporter or best writer would tell you this is common sense. GMs are always gauging the value on all their players.

The best writer who reported this Okafor story, Tom Moore, I follow him very closely. One of his very next tweets was, in response to being asked if its the GM's job to gauge interest on every player: "Sam Hinkie will always investigate every opportunity. It's his job and he does it."

As for the Orlando/Blake rumor. This was discussed at great length yesterday in the Harris trade thread. The Magic reporter was David Baumann. There are links all over the Internet. Yes, Blake is a major piece. There were rumors last week that the Sixers would offer Okafor for Blake. When a star is possibly available, you make a call. Again, GMs exploring opportunities, and seeing what their players are worth. Not exactly earth shattering news here.

As for KAT, Wiggins, Russell, Mudiay... Sure, I could see KAT never being discussed at all. He's as untouchable as it comes. Wiggins, maybe. Russell and Mudiay, sure. Some things get leaked, some things don't.

That would NEVER happen for the Clippers since Blake is one of the fastest transition front court star in the league while the other one is as slow footed as a slug. The trade that makes the most sense is for that Okie to go back to Muskogee for KD on a non commitment rental so they can have the best chance at winning the championship imo :nod:

Aust
02-18-2016, 01:58 AM
Earliest they probably trade him would be at next year's deadline, unless they get blown away by an offer.

Alayla
02-18-2016, 02:00 AM
Earliest they probably trade him would be at next year's deadline, unless they get blown away by an offer.

Yeah people are going wild about this for no reason a deal is REALLY unlikely right now.

TheNumber37
02-18-2016, 02:09 AM
This is actually smart.

They can and should trade for a younger Guard who can score and another pick.

They'd have 4 first rounders in 2016 then.

That should be enough to make the compete, assuming they get Embid and Saric.

IKnowHoops
02-18-2016, 02:44 AM
I think the 76ers are doing a great job. They have 3 talented young bigs, and they are going to get a high pick this year. Your not going to have a chance to win anytime soon, so draft exciting young talent. The sixers should not try and compete for another 2-3 years. Keep drafting, and continue to draft the best player. Anymore centers though and they gotta same day trade them during the draft.

More-Than-Most
02-18-2016, 03:01 AM
Except there haven't been any rumors about the Knicks gauging KP's value. Try again.

The only time you're gonna hear a rumor like this is when it's been discussed enough for it to be leaked.

And the only reason dude responded to you without directly answering your points is because it's the most efficient way to address inane reasoning.

Time and again, within the last five years, the sixers have shown they have no real plan. I actually feel bad for you and your fellow fans. This coming from Knicks fan. That says it all.

Like there was no trade talk of Kobe Bryant a top 10 player ever and a top 3 player in all of basketball? Yet you think KP is above any trade talk... I can list you players that were toggled out there that people said was no chance they would do such a thing but again were proven wrong.... Its the trade deadline... Everyone except curry/James right now are being gauged.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 05:41 AM
Earliest they probably trade him would be at next year's deadline, unless they get blown away by an offer.


He could be traded around the draft



to most of the posters on this topic (not you Aust).....you listen when an opposing team calls....it does not say they are initiating......but this site throws so much hate at Philadelphia and not just in regards to sports its a bit pathetic and shows how many people are blind sheep that don't offer there real opinions just say what is a popular thing to say to strangers on the internet

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 05:43 AM
This is actually smart.

They can and should trade for a younger Guard who can score and another pick.

They'd have 4 first rounders in 2016 then.

That should be enough to make the compete, assuming they get Embid and Saric.


Thanks, great post...this is exactly what they need to do, if they pull the trigger.


I suspect if the Sixers do anything it will be with the Heat or OKC pick or Covington. Nothing earth shattering.

Colangelo is in charge not Hinkie...Hinkie has the title but I don't believe he is running the show. I suspect things get interesting in the offseason so so much in the next 11 hours for the Sixers.

mudvayne387
02-18-2016, 08:56 AM
I was having trouble thinking of a logical trade partner for Philly to deal with. Problem is, they are in desperate need of guard help and teams don't generally have a surplus of young guards capable of running a team. They only thing I could think of that potentially makes sense is:

Okafor/Staukas

for

Bledsoe/Booker

colinskik
02-18-2016, 09:12 AM
Like there was no trade talk of Kobe Bryant a top 10 player ever and a top 3 player in all of basketball? Yet you think KP is above any trade talk... I can list you players that were toggled out there that people said was no chance they would do such a thing but again were proven wrong.... Its the trade deadline... Everyone except curry/James right now are being gauged.

Kobe demanded a trade. Again, a much diff scenario. There is such a thing as untouchable players, and I'm arguing that KP currently has that status with the Knicks. The same doesn't seem to be true for Okafor. Is that because they don't like his skill set as a foundation for their team going forward, or because they insist on playing this revolving door game wherein they'll ostensibly remain in a constant rebuild?

basketballkitty
02-18-2016, 09:19 AM
Kobe demanded a trade. Again, a much diff scenario. There is such a thing as untouchable players, and I'm arguing that KP currently has that status with the Knicks. The same doesn't seem to be true for Okafor. Is that because they don't like his skill set as a foundation for their team going forward, or because they insist on playing this revolving door game wherein they'll ostensibly remain in a constant rebuild?




That does not mean that KP has a higher value then Okafor. That is just ridiculous. It onlky means that Philly has so many Super talented and valuable Bigs that they're gauging his trade value around the league to address an area that they're not as deep at.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 09:30 AM
I was having trouble thinking of a logical trade partner for Philly to deal with. Problem is, they are in desperate need of guard help and teams don't generally have a surplus of young guards capable of running a team. They only thing I could think of that potentially makes sense is:

Okafor/Staukas

for

Bledsoe/Booker


It would be for someone like McCollum and more pieces, possibly on both side...that is the only type of player that would make sense at the trade deadline

colinskik
02-18-2016, 09:33 AM
That does not mean that KP has a higher value then Okafor. That is just ridiculous. It onlky means that Philly has so many Super talented and valuable Bigs that they're gauging his trade value around the league to address an area that they're not as deep at.

Never said it means KP has a higher value than anyone except maybe his own teammates who the Knicks are very willing to move -- or include in talks to gauge their value as people here like to call it.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 09:35 AM
Kobe demanded a trade. Again, a much diff scenario. There is such a thing as untouchable players, and I'm arguing that KP currently has that status with the Knicks. The same doesn't seem to be true for Okafor. Is that because they don't like his skill set as a foundation for their team going forward, or because they insist on playing this revolving door game wherein they'll ostensibly remain in a constant rebuild?


No offense intended but I think it ridiculously naive to think that most players are not always talked about every year. It can be an very informal or very formal conversation, but I believe in all team sports most teams are always looking the the value of there players, both in terms of salary and in terms of trade value.

Its just smart. I would be stunned if the Knicks haven't fielded calls where KP was talked about.

Okafor is important to gauge value for because he is the piece that has the greatest value and is at a position that has multiple players at it (if healthy). An Okafor deal is unlikely today but its smart business to hear what others have to say or offer. It would be stupid for the Knicks to not listen to what people have to say about KP, they wouldn't pull the trigger, but you have to listen.

ewing
02-18-2016, 09:54 AM
Ah I see. Well I'm not sure why I responded to you. Even though you put words in my mouth and didn't respond to any of my actual points when you quoted me, I still took a 2nd post to explain what I was talking about. Instead of going down that high road with me, you chose to ignore me, and instead troll someone else because you failed to troll me with your first post. I get it.

What???

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 09:55 AM
Kobe demanded a trade. Again, a much diff scenario. There is such a thing as untouchable players, and I'm arguing that KP currently has that status with the Knicks. The same doesn't seem to be true for Okafor. Is that because they don't like his skill set as a foundation for their team going forward, or because they insist on playing this revolving door game wherein they'll ostensibly remain in a constant rebuild?

So because Okafor isn't untouchable like you think KP is, because our GM is doing what most GMs do by gauging the value of his players, that's why you have a problem with the Sixers? Because gauging the value of Okafor when we have 2, possibly 3, very good young centers on the roster means we don't know what we're doing?

So if we ignored all inquiries about Okafor or chose to never see what he's worth to other teams around the league, then that would be better?

Or are you gonna keep cherry picking who you respond to and ignore me when I addressed all your points earlier?

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 10:08 AM
What???

You quoted me, but didn't respond to anything I actually said. Then you put words in my mouth, and made a sarcastic remark. Then I gave a reasonable response, you ignored that and moved on with the same line to someone else. That's what trolls do.

If you weren't being sarcastic, then my bad. Honestly. But given the tone of this thread, you can see why I thought it.

ewing
02-18-2016, 10:14 AM
You quoted me, but didn't respond to anything I actually said. Then you put words in my mouth, and made a sarcastic remark. Then I gave a reasonable response, you ignored that and moved on with the same line to someone else. That's what trolls do.

If you weren't being sarcastic, then my bad. Honestly. But given the tone of this thread, you can see why I thought it.


Like i said, if you enjoy and agree with the Sixers rebuild method enjoy the show. No i do not think the Sixers should be gauging Oka trade value right now. Yes, i do think this story is reflective of how they have run there franchise the past couple of years. Like i said if you have no problem how this team as conducted business enjoy the show. Personally i am happy the NBA stepped in and hope it marks a turn in philosophy.

valade16
02-18-2016, 10:37 AM
Non-story. It's the GM's job to gauge the trade value of every player on his roster. That's literally his job. Nowhere does it say we're shopping him or taking offers for him. This time of year, every player that's worth discussing has been discussed with every team. Unless you got like Lebron, Steph, or maybe 3-5 other players in the league.

I'm not sure 76ers fans should be referencing what a GMs job is because traditionally their job has been to build a competitive roster and the 76ers GM has done quite literally the opposite of that.

valade16
02-18-2016, 10:51 AM
Ton of money/draft picks/OKA/Noel/Embiid/Saric... Yea I think they are doing a damn good job and have amazing talent without ever actually being bad enough or lucky enough to get the top pick... Its much better than being stuck in limbo like we were for years entering the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed and being 1 and done.

The sixers are so hated on this site its borderline ridiculous and its mostly by butthurt people who have no clue about the actual plan and just jump on the we hate sixers band wagon.

You can't seriously think that can you? That is serious delusion to believe that people don't understand the 76ers plan. I'd say nearly every person who has more than a casual interest in the NBA knows exactly what the 76ers plan is. I have yet to see more than a handful of people on here who genuinely have no idea what the 76ers rebuilding strategy has been.

You can't honestly think people are making fun of them because they don't understand. If anything, they are making fun of them because they do understand. The 76ers strategy has been to be as bad as possible to stockpile assets and become a juggernaught/contender.

Thus far they have executed that plan to perfection with a combined 45-172 record the last 3 years and have acquired a lot of assets (as you listed). But that's the easiest part of the plan. Getting to rock bottom is always easier than climbing out of it.

Hinkie is discovering that picking at the top of the lottery is no guarantee of getting a franchise player. Noel and Okafor look too one dimensional to be that type of player and Embiid is closer to the next Oden than Olajuwon. It could work, it might not. One thing is for sure, it's going to take a long time to find out which. It's easy to stomach 20 win seasons with the belief that 60 win seasons are around the corner, but if those don't happen, I would not want to be the fan looking back on 4-5 years of terrible play and realize it had all been for naught.

Tony_Starks
02-18-2016, 10:51 AM
Trade Okafor for expiring contracts and future picks.

Continue tanking for the next 2-3 years while acquiring "assets."

In the year 2020 if none of the assets has developed into a superstar extend rebuild for an additional 2-5 years

2025 championship!!!!!!

R. Johnson#3
02-18-2016, 10:52 AM
Imagine if Brooklyn got him for Hollis-Jefferson and Thad Young. I can see Thad retiring in that case lol.

colinskik
02-18-2016, 11:00 AM
No offense intended but I think it ridiculously naive to think that most players are not always talked about every year. It can be an very informal or very formal conversation, but I believe in all team sports most teams are always looking the the value of there players, both in terms of salary and in terms of trade value.

Its just smart. I would be stunned if the Knicks haven't fielded calls where KP was talked about.

Okafor is important to gauge value for because he is the piece that has the greatest value and is at a position that has multiple players at it (if healthy). An Okafor deal is unlikely today but its smart business to hear what others have to say or offer. It would be stupid for the Knicks to not listen to what people have to say about KP, they wouldn't pull the trigger, but you have to listen.

I'm sure a TON of teams have called about KP, but we haven't heard squat about the Knicks actually listening to any of them -- this in the media capital of the world where evidence isn't a prerequisite for a story. You think the f'n NY POST wouldn't love to put out a story about NYK trading away the first good thing that's happened to them in years?? But, contrary to popular belief, even the worst brand of journalism can't pull a story directly out their ***. There needs to be some inkling of a lead.

The fact that we're hearing noise about Okafor means that to a certain extent the talks have progressed past the informal stages.

You're being naive if you think this story doesn't reflect the truth that your Sixers are seriously considering trading away last year's #3 pick. Just look at their history.

2-ONE-5
02-18-2016, 11:04 AM
yea bcuz Hinkie is known to get fleeced on deals. But um Thad loves Philly and its a hell of a lot better than playing for BK im sure.

D-Leethal
02-18-2016, 11:05 AM
solid idea. they need to reset things. bottom out and start over :clap: maybe they can eat a long term contract to get an extra pick

lmfao

Hinkie reminds me of David Kahn. When Kahn got hired he was actually touted as a bright dude, than started doing some ridiculous **** like drafting 3 PGs in one draft to "collect assets". It seemed everyone thought he was a Chip Kelly type of evil genius that was so unorthodox he was smarter than everyone else - turned out he was a moron. Looks like Hinkie is gonna follow the same path.

2-ONE-5
02-18-2016, 11:06 AM
I'm sure a TON of teams have called about KP, but we haven't heard squat about the Knicks actually listening to any of them -- this in the media capital of the world where evidence isn't a prerequisite for a story. You think the f'n NY POST wouldn't love to put out a story about NYK trading away the first good thing that's happened to them in years?? But, contrary to popular belief, even the worst brand of journalism can't pull a story directly out their ***. There needs to be some inkling of a lead.

The fact that we're hearing noise about Okafor means that to a certain extent the talks have progressed past the informal stages.

You're being naive if you think this story doesn't reflect the truth that your Sixers are seriously considering trading away last year's #3 pick. Just look at their history.

its an easy, believable story thats why people can put it out there. But what about our history? you mean trading MCW for a high pick while hes on the outs again in Mil? Yea **** man we just deal everyone.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 11:38 AM
I'm sure a TON of teams have called about KP, but we haven't heard squat about the Knicks actually listening to any of them -- this in the media capital of the world where evidence isn't a prerequisite for a story. You think the f'n NY POST wouldn't love to put out a story about NYK trading away the first good thing that's happened to them in years?? But, contrary to popular belief, even the worst brand of journalism can't pull a story directly out their ***. There needs to be some inkling of a lead.

The fact that we're hearing noise about Okafor means that to a certain extent the talks have progressed past the informal stages.

You're being naive if you think this story doesn't reflect the truth that your Sixers are seriously considering trading away last year's #3 pick. Just look at their history.


I never said the bolded wasn't the case...you got called out, get defensive after making a solid point, and try and indicate what I was thinking....also you fail to take into account Jerry Colangelo, which makes your point about history meaningless......Hinkie has the title but is not calling the shots

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 11:40 AM
its an easy, believable story thats why people can put it out there. But what about our history? you mean trading MCW for a high pick while hes on the outs again in Mil? Yea **** man we just deal everyone.

Its funny, because this person started out making a solid post, then had to turn defensive

colinskik
02-18-2016, 11:44 AM
I never said the bolded wasn't the case...you got called out, get defensive after making a solid point, and try and indicate what I was thinking....also you fail to take into account Jerry Colangelo, which makes your point about history meaningless......Hinkie has the title but is not calling the shots

I didn't get called out for ****. You called me naive and I spit it right back atcha. It's hard to take off the rose colored glasses when it's your team, I understand, but you're living in a ****ing candy land if you think your team is a path to success.

53 HOWARD
02-18-2016, 11:52 AM
To me it doesn't make sense for a rebuilding team to look to trade their best player, who is a rookie. They must think he doesn't fit there long term or he wants out. If I'm a sixers fan I'd be pissed. I think okafer is ten times the player Noel is.

Alayla
02-18-2016, 12:08 PM
I never said the bolded wasn't the case...you got called out, get defensive after making a solid point, and try and indicate what I was thinking....also you fail to take into account Jerry Colangelo, which makes your point about history meaningless......Hinkie has the title but is not calling the shots

Why do you insist on repeating this even when people have confronted you about it. Colangelo himself has said otherwise on many occasions.

Alayla
02-18-2016, 12:10 PM
To me it doesn't make sense for a rebuilding team to look to trade their best player, who is a rookie. They must think he doesn't fit there long term or he wants out. If I'm a sixers fan I'd be pissed. I think okafer is ten times the player Noel is.

Personally i perfer Noel to Okafor and feel one of the 2 needs to be moved eventually but i highly doubt it happens any sooner than the offseason.

Alayla
02-18-2016, 12:12 PM
I didn't get called out for ****. You called me naive and I spit it right back atcha. It's hard to take off the rose colored glasses when it's your team, I understand, but you're living in a ****ing candy land if you think your team is a path to success.

Yes because looking into what Okafor is worth when we have a logjam in the front court is a sign of a flailing franchise holy **** dude.
In fact if i was Hinkie i would activity be fielding offers for him not just seeing what his value is but most sixers fans still don't understand me on that front you guys are acting like Okafor is a potential superstar you build around. Same **** you all did with MCW xDD

JesusNYY_Savior
02-18-2016, 12:17 PM
Wouldn't Okafor for better next to Embiid then Noel? So you at least have some offense down low?

Alayla
02-18-2016, 12:25 PM
Wouldn't Okafor for better next to Embiid then Noel? So you at least have some offense down low?

Embiid is touted as having a very nice post game.
I understand what your saying though.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2016, 12:35 PM
Why do you insist on repeating this even when people have confronted you about it. Colangelo himself has said otherwise on many occasions.

Of course he has said that...that is what has to be said....all the moves they have made, are moves like he and not Hinkie have made consistently.

53 HOWARD
02-18-2016, 12:40 PM
Personally i perfer Noel to Okafor and feel one of the 2 needs to be moved eventually but i highly doubt it happens any sooner than the offseason.
Yeah it doesn't make sense to trade him now unless they get an unprotected first for him and a guard.
Maybe smart and brooklyns first??
I'm not a Celtics fan just thinking trade wise.

Alayla
02-18-2016, 12:58 PM
Of course he has said that...that is what has to be said....all the moves they have made, are moves like he and not Hinkie have made consistently.

what moves exactly u mean ish smith who hinkie tried to resign and openly admited he made a mistake by not being able to retain ? Mabye ill give you Elton Brand but again its an advisors job to mention ideas that will help its not evidence of him calling the shots over hinkie come on now.

sixer04fan
02-18-2016, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure 76ers fans should be referencing what a GMs job is because traditionally their job has been to build a competitive roster and the 76ers GM has done quite literally the opposite of that.

So even though the reporter who spread this story, and even Woj, have said exactly the same thing I'm saying, you disagree? Because I'm a Sixers fan? You couldn't sound more ignorant if you tried

2-ONE-5
02-18-2016, 01:46 PM
funny bcuz all of the reports said Oak isnt expected to be traded short of a mega haul in which case many players would be available for that type of deal.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2016, 02:22 PM
ahhhh, day of the deadline, where every name gets thrown around. No way they trade him

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 05:48 AM
what moves exactly u mean ish smith who hinkie tried to resign and openly admited he made a mistake by not being able to retain ? Mabye ill give you Elton Brand but again its an advisors job to mention ideas that will help its not evidence of him calling the shots over hinkie come on now.



They tell us that he is in an advisory role....Ish who Hinkie failed to resign, Elton, bringing in D'Antonio, the recent talk about adding another major basketball mind to the front office.

I don't believe everything I hear, I look at facts and my opinions develop.

Hinkie did something great....he tore down and demolished something that needed it, it added talent (Grant, Covington, Thomas, not mentioned the bigs and Saric). He made several solid trades and got us a ton of a salary cap space and assets.

IMO Hinkie does not know how to build, he knows how to acquire and tear down. He knows how to make room to do what needs to be done, but he hasn't shown me he knows the little things (like making sure you have veterans to help the kids).

The tone and talk around the Sixers have changed and while the moves have been small (and they should be when you hire a guy like Colangelo after the season starts and he needs time to evaluate) and that isn't because of Hinkie. I am not an anti Hinkie guy, I think Hinkie can learn how to construct a team but he doesn't know how. All the moves and messages that have come out have been about building a great team and using what we have to do it.

It had a different tone, and even the play on the court was different prior to Colengelo. They can't tell us the truth but we can infer it from what is going on.

Even trading for Joel Anthony and a second round pick (a move that looks like Hinkie), but cutting Sampson (a player with some long term bench upside) tells me they are keeping the veteran this time. Joel Anthony if he is not cut is another veteran that can help the kids.

KnicksorBust
02-19-2016, 08:23 AM
Non-story. It's the GM's job to gauge the trade value of every player on his roster. That's literally his job. Nowhere does it say we're shopping him or taking offers for him. This time of year, every player that's worth discussing has been discussed with every team. Unless you got like Lebron, Steph, or maybe 3-5 other players in the league.

Honestly feel like the thread could have ended here. I suppose the only downside is Okafor is starting to show a pattern for bad decisions and if you take an immature rookie and put doubts in his mind that he is already being shopped that could create a headache in the locker room and/or hurt his confidence. Another big problem with a player like Okafor is his style of play is not as effective in the modern game.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 09:39 AM
They tell us that he is in an advisory role....Ish who Hinkie failed to resign, Elton, bringing in D'Antonio, the recent talk about adding another major basketball mind to the front office.

I don't believe everything I hear, I look at facts and my opinions develop.

Hinkie did something great....he tore down and demolished something that needed it, it added talent (Grant, Covington, Thomas, not mentioned the bigs and Saric). He made several solid trades and got us a ton of a salary cap space and assets.

IMO Hinkie does not know how to build, he knows how to acquire and tear down. He knows how to make room to do what needs to be done, but he hasn't shown me he knows the little things (like making sure you have veterans to help the kids).

The tone and talk around the Sixers have changed and while the moves have been small (and they should be when you hire a guy like Colangelo after the season starts and he needs time to evaluate) and that isn't because of Hinkie. I am not an anti Hinkie guy, I think Hinkie can learn how to construct a team but he doesn't know how. All the moves and messages that have come out have been about building a great team and using what we have to do it.

It had a different tone, and even the play on the court was different prior to Colengelo. They can't tell us the truth but we can infer it from what is going on.

Even trading for Joel Anthony and a second round pick (a move that looks like Hinkie), but cutting Sampson (a player with some long term bench upside) tells me they are keeping the veteran this time. Joel Anthony if he is not cut is another veteran that can help the kids.

youre wrong on all of this. These Vets aint helping **** and there would never have been talk of it had Okafor not gotten into trouble. Also Sampson is being re-signed and Anthony cut.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 09:40 AM
Honestly feel like the thread could have ended here. I suppose the only downside is Okafor is starting to show a pattern for bad decisions and if you take an immature rookie and put doubts in his mind that he is already being shopped that could create a headache in the locker room and/or hurt his confidence. Another big problem with a player like Okafor is his style of play is not as effective in the modern game.

what pattern of bad decisions? nothing has happened since the Boston incident. Also how isnt Okafors style effective? Bcuz 17ppg on 50% shooting sounds effective to me.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 09:55 AM
youre wrong on all of this. These Vets aint helping **** and there would never have been talk of it had Okafor not gotten into trouble. Also Sampson is being re-signed and Anthony cut.

You're hostile.....I'm not wrong but you are "entitled" to think what you want. As far as Sampson goes, he was cut yesterday, I stated a fact...he was cut to make a roster spot...now maybe they will cut Anthony and re-sign him....but you are stating that I am wrong about the literal fact that I stated in Sampson getting cut.

Seriously you don't agree fine, but why the venom



edit:

I technically used the wrong term....even though it's essentially the same thing, Sampson was waived not cut

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 10:34 AM
but you didnt understand why Smapson was cut or realize the team already stated he would be re-signed once he clears waivers. the venom? lol

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 10:36 AM
but you didnt understand why Smapson was cut or realize the team already stated he would be re-signed once he clears waivers. the venom? lol


Sorry you entitled........I did not know it was stated....so I wasn't wrong with what I said, because what I said did happen....you decided to respond the most entitled way possible....I genuinely pity you.....I'll stop here so I don't get banned

valade16
02-19-2016, 10:39 AM
So even though the reporter who spread this story, and even Woj, have said exactly the same thing I'm saying, you disagree? Because I'm a Sixers fan? You couldn't sound more ignorant if you tried

First, they didn't. You said "So if we ignored all inquiries about Okafor or chose to never see what he's worth to other teams around the league, then that would be better?"

That makes it sound like you guys were reactive and just listening to offers for him. The article said you were proactively calling up other teams to gauge his trade value. Those are far different.

It's way different to listen to others about your players than to proactively search out trades. OKC is not proactively calling up other teams on KD. NYK is not proactively calling up other teams on Porzingis. The Pelicans are not proactively calling up other teams on AD.

So do you think teams should be proactively calling up other teams to work out possible trades for players they believe are untouchable just to gauge their value? Doubtful.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 10:45 AM
Sorry you entitled........I did not know it was stated....so I wasn't wrong with what I said, because what I said did happen....you decided to respond the most entitled way possible....I genuinely pity you.....I'll stop here so I don't get banned

lol you crack me up every time you post. its cool when you call other posters out though. later.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 10:47 AM
First, they didn't. You said "So if we ignored all inquiries about Okafor or chose to never see what he's worth to other teams around the league, then that would be better?"

That makes it sound like you guys were reactive and just listening to offers for him. The article said you were proactively calling up other teams to gauge his trade value. Those are far different.

It's way different to listen to others about your players than to proactively search out trades. OKC is not proactively calling up other teams on KD. NYK is not proactively calling up other teams on Porzingis. The Pelicans are not proactively calling up other teams on AD.

So do you think teams should be proactively calling up other teams to work out possible trades for players they believe are untouchable just to gauge their value? Doubtful.

anyone reporting on what the Sixers did cant be trusted. Hinkie doesnt talk to anyone and the media hates for him and takes every chance they get to make him look bad

STRIKERC
02-19-2016, 10:56 AM
what pattern of bad decisions? nothing has happened since the Boston incident. Also how isnt Okafors style effective? Bcuz 17ppg on 50% shooting sounds effective to me.

That guy thinks a 3 point shooting big man like Porzingis is how the modern game is played even though most NBA commentators say they prefer their big man down in the paint and not out there shooting threes.

Tony_Starks
02-19-2016, 12:06 PM
Serious question for Sixers fans:

At what point do you admit "hey we had a plan, a plan that takes YEARS to implement mind you, that sounded good in theory. BUT we F'd it all up."

What more do they need to do?

Alayla
02-19-2016, 12:41 PM
Serious question for Sixers fans:

At what point do you admit "hey we had a plan, a plan that takes YEARS to implement mind you, that sounded good in theory. BUT we F'd it all up."

What more do they need to do?

If things still look like this in 2 years? that would be the time.
It hasn't even been 3 full seasons yet no one said this was going to be fast or pretty.
As far as im concerned things have been going more or less exactly as expected espically considering our poor luck with the draft we could just as easily have been in the Timberwolves postion right now rather than the one we are in (with more assets than the Timberwolves have mind you) and no one would utter a word.
I think things like that are very easy to forget when you don't see guys like Embiid or Saric out there yet.
Even easier when people have it in there heads Okafor is a franchise player and we are trying to trade him when actually hes nothing close to that if anything that player is what we are looking for.

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 12:43 PM
I think the problem is more execution than "the plan". You look at the 2014 draft as a good example of the blindly adding assets instead of team building. Drafting Embiid when you have Noel already, ignoring simple team building aspects like understanding that two players having overlapping skillsets and styles means that one will have to sacrifice and do things they may not be capable of. In the case of developing players especially, that's horrible.

You're tanking and trying to find the next "superstar" and in the process putting Noel or Embiid in a position where one will have to play PF, when both are best suited for C. All while being surrounded by a revolving door of
D-League talent so the tank can remain "the plan". That's a great way to develop underachieving prospects, not superstars.

To make matters worse, "the plan" seeped into that same draft later. They drafted a much needed PG in Payton, and then traded down a few picks to keep stockpiling assets. What do they do? Draft ANOTHER big and one who is a draft and stash player, killing two birds with one stone to keep tanking. You know who would have looked good and filled a need at #12 that year? The guy that went #13, Zach LaVine. Trying to build through the draft only works when you are actually good at talent evaluation and team building. That's why you see a lot of the same teams in the lottery every year, whether on purpose or not.

Cut to the 2015 draft and you have what? The 76ers taking ANOTHER C, and one who has zero versatility to his game. Part of this is Hinkie reaping what he sows. No agent wants to deal with him, no agent wants his players there. We all know this, yes? OK, so when Porzingis avoids working out for the 76ers in the draft process because he/his agent wants nothing to do with them, that's also part of "the plan".

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 12:49 PM
That guy thinks a 3 point shooting big man like Porzingis is how the modern game is played even though most NBA commentators say they prefer their big man down in the paint and not out there shooting threes.

Right, except that Porzingis is a much better player than Okafor, both in versatility and being an two-way impact player.

When Porzingis is on the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 107.3 and a DRating of 106.1, a +1.2 net
When Porzingis is off the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 102.6 and a DRating of 109.0, a -6.4 net
Total on/off difference is +7.6

When Okafor is on the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 94.3 and a DRating of 110.3, a -16.0 net
When Okfafor is off the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 100.6 and a DRating of 105.0, a -4.4 net
Total on/off difference is -11.6

One is making his team much better on both sides of the court, one is making his team much worse on both sides of the court. Maybe part of that is due to the construction of the 76ers roster, but hey that's "the plan", right?

EDIT: And for the record, I actually like Okafor the player. I think he's getting screwed by that roster. Between being a post player on offense and a weak defensive player, he needs a roster built around him properly for them to be effective. The 76ers aren't built to do anything. Maybe he's a relic in today's game, who knows, but he's not in a great position to prove that one way or the other.

Alayla
02-19-2016, 12:57 PM
I think the problem is more execution than "the plan". You look at the 2014 draft as a good example of the blindly adding assets instead of team building. Drafting Embiid when you have Noel already, ignoring simple team building aspects like understanding that two players having overlapping skillsets and styles means that one will have to sacrifice and do things they may not be capable of. In the case of developing players especially, that's horrible.

You're tanking and trying to find the next "superstar" and in the process putting Noel or Embiid in a position where one will have to play PF, when both are best suited for C. All while being surrounded by a revolving door of
D-League talent so the tank can remain "the plan". That's a great way to develop underachieving prospects, not superstars.

To make matters worse, "the plan" seeped into that same draft later. They drafted a much needed PG in Payton, and then traded down a few picks to keep stockpiling assets. What do they do? Draft ANOTHER big and one who is a draft and stash player, killing two birds with one stone to keep tanking. You know who would have looked good and filled a need at #12 that year? The guy that went #13, Zach LaVine. Trying to build through the draft only works when you are actually good at talent evaluation and team building. That's why you see a lot of the same teams in the lottery every year, whether on purpose or not.

Cut to the 2015 draft and you have what? The 76ers taking ANOTHER C, and one who has zero versatility to his game. Part of this is Hinkie reaping what he sows. No agent what's to deal with him, no agent wants his players there. We all know this, yes? OK, so when Porzingis avoids working out for the 76ers in the draft process because he/his agent wants nothing to do with them, that's also part of "the plan".

The issue is even in retrospect there is not a single one of those picks i myself wouldn't have done outside of Okafor over Porzingis. Do we have to many guys playing the same position? YUP but all of those guys have been good choices Saric and Embiid have major delay getting on to the court but they may just be the 2 most interesting prospects we have.

The thing ive been harping on in the sixers forum is moving Okafor for a guard if we manage something like that it swings the doors right back open again.
I want you to tell me in each of those picks who you would have taken outside of who the sixers did.
I will give you Lavine over Saric because i wanted that myself at the time until i learned more about Saric all signs point to him having an excellent career whenever he comes over.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 12:57 PM
Serious question for Sixers fans:

At what point do you admit "hey we had a plan, a plan that takes YEARS to implement mind you, that sounded good in theory. BUT we F'd it all up."

What more do they need to do?

lol how is it all f'd up?

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 12:58 PM
I think the problem is more execution than "the plan". You look at the 2014 draft as a good example of the blindly adding assets instead of team building. Drafting Embiid when you have Noel already, ignoring simple team building aspects like understanding that two players having overlapping skillsets and styles means that one will have to sacrifice and do things they may not be capable of. In the case of developing players especially, that's horrible.

You're tanking and trying to find the next "superstar" and in the process putting Noel or Embiid in a position where one will have to play PF, when both are best suited for C. All while being surrounded by a revolving door of
D-League talent so the tank can remain "the plan". That's a great way to develop underachieving prospects, not superstars.

To make matters worse, "the plan" seeped into that same draft later. They drafted a much needed PG in Payton, and then traded down a few picks to keep stockpiling assets. What do they do? Draft ANOTHER big and one who is a draft and stash player, killing two birds with one stone to keep tanking. You know who would have looked good and filled a need at #12 that year? The guy that went #13, Zach LaVine. Trying to build through the draft only works when you are actually good at talent evaluation and team building. That's why you see a lot of the same teams in the lottery every year, whether on purpose or not.

Cut to the 2015 draft and you have what? The 76ers taking ANOTHER C, and one who has zero versatility to his game. Part of this is Hinkie reaping what he sows. No agent wants to deal with him, no agent wants his players there. We all know this, yes? OK, so when Porzingis avoids working out for the 76ers in the draft process because he/his agent wants nothing to do with them, that's also part of "the plan".

but why draft a lesser talent? were not trying to build a team of role players again and there was a big drop off in talent after each of our picks. Lavine really? . We didnt have a need for Payton for Lavine anyway since we had the reigning ROY on the roster at the time so you dont even have a point here and neither are anything special or even good at the moment.

Tony_Starks
02-19-2016, 12:59 PM
Serious question for Sixers fans:

At what point do you admit "hey we had a plan, a plan that takes YEARS to implement mind you, that sounded good in theory. BUT we F'd it all up."

What more do they need to do?

If things still look like this in 2 years? that would be the time.
It hasn't even been 3 full seasons yet no one said this was going to be fast or pretty.
As far as im concerned things have been going more or less exactly as expected espically considering our poor luck with the draft we could just as easily have been in the Timberwolves postion right now rather than the one we are in (with more assets than the Timberwolves have mind you) and no one would utter a word.
I think things like that are very easy to forget when you don't see guys like Embiid or Saric out there yet.
Even easier when people have it in there heads Okafor is a franchise player and we are trying to trade him when actually hes nothing close to that if anything that player is what we are looking for.


So we can throw another year or two in the garbage can before the obvious is accepted? Cool.

As a fan why would I want to purchase a ticket to see this mockery for another two years in the meantime though?

Also if by some miracle things went exactly how management "planned" in two years what would be the payoff? A team that is now a yearly contender right? That is the whole end goal of this "be really bad until you're really good" concept right?

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 01:00 PM
Right, except that Porzingis is a much better player than Okafor, both in versatility and being an two-way impact player.

When Porzingis is on the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 107.3 and a DRating of 106.1, a +1.2 net
When Porzingis is off the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 102.6 and a DRating of 109.0, a -6.4 net
Total on/off difference is +7.6

When Okafor is on the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 94.3 and a DRating of 110.3, a -16.0 net
When Okfafor is off the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 100.6 and a DRating of 105.0, a -4.4 net
Total on/off difference is -11.6

One is making his team much better on both sides of the court, one is making his team much worse on both sides of the court. Maybe part of that is due to the construction of the 76ers roster, but hey that's "the plan", right?

EDIT: And for the record, I actually like Okafor the player. I think he's getting screwed by that roster. Between being a post player on offense and a weak defensive player, he needs a roster built around him properly for them to be effective. The 76ers aren't built to do anything. Maybe he's a relic in today's game, who knows, but he's not in a great position to prove that one way or the other.

none of these stats take into acct the talent around each. Porz is good but NO WHERE near as good as NY fans and the media make him out to be right now. If the roles were reversed it would be the same thing. Surely you understand the difference in playing on O with Melo who is the #1 option. Its not like Porz is some lock down defender, hes good at blocking shots like he should be while Oak is the better post defender just like he should be right now. Funny thing is they avg about the same rebs per game.

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 01:30 PM
The issue is even in retrospect there is not a single one of those picks i myself wouldn't have done outside of Okafor over Porzingis. Do we have to many guys playing the same position? YUP but all of those guys have been good choices Saric and Embiid have major delay getting on to the court but they may just be the 2 most interesting prospects we have.

The thing ive been harping on in the sixers forum is moving Okafor for a guard if we manage something like that it swings the doors right back open again.
I want you to tell me in each of those picks who you would have taken outside of who the sixers did.
I will give you Lavine over Saric because i wanted that myself at the time until i learned more about Saric all signs point to him having an excellent career whenever he comes over.

Saric may very well be as good as LaVine when he comes over, maybe even better. But is it better to have LaVine and 3 bigs or 4 bigs? The thing is, how can Saric ever show what he's capable of doing when he's coming off the bench and sharing a rotation with three top 5 draft picks? Everyone needs their touches, and guys like Okafor and Embiid if he ever plays will have priority over Saric. There's only one ball and on this Philly roster Saric may be relegated to a jump shooting big off the bench. Meanwhile, having a talented combo guard in LaVine (I don't see him as a PG) would help any of the bigs out, making all players involved better. How is Saric ever going to have the opportunity to show his full game in that logjam?

LaVine over Saric is the obvious one, same with Okafor and Porzingis. I don't dislike any of their prospects in a vacuum, but I'm of the mindset that team building is a combination of getting the best talent and building accumulative talent to one form. I think the 2014 draft was unfortunately weak for them.

The red flags about Embiid's possible health issues were well established before the draft, even if no one expected this. Next couple of picks you have Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum, Marcus Smart, Julius Randle, Nik Stauskas who they have now anyways lol, Noah Vonleh and the Elfrid Payton that they traded.

Personally, even though Embiid was no doubt the better prospect, I would have went with Gordon or Exum over him simply because I already had Noel. For me, once you take a prospect top 5, you better build with that prospect in mind instead of blindly adding BPA. Gordon's athleticism and two way potential would have been a nice fit at PF next to Noel, for example. Would have had an extremely athletic and potentially devastating defensive big man duo with insane transition potential. Exum has been disappointing like Embiid, both health reasons and in his case when on the court, but his two-way potential as a PG is also noted. If they valued Embiid that much more highly over them, I would have traded Noel and reshifted my build around Embiid.

In 2015, especially after already having Embiid and Noel, I would have looked more closer at guys like Hezonja, Mudiay, Winslow, etc. The problem there is value because, like Embiid, Okafor was a higher rated prospect than those guys. So you try to move down, but if you can't I think you swallow that bullet and take who ultimately has the best chance to make your team as good as it can be. That is the ultimate goal, after all. I'm sure in hindsight that Miami wishes they had #4 Westbrook or #5 Love instead of #2 Michael Beasley lol.

Hinkie leaves too much to sort out after the fact, to me. Too much of the mindset of well, we can just trade one or two later. Problem is he's killing their value in the process with his poor team building, and putting himself in boxes that no one is unaware of from a negotiating standpoint. Noel's RFA is coming up, for example.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 01:31 PM
So we can throw another year or two in the garbage can before the obvious is accepted? Cool.

As a fan why would I want to purchase a ticket to see this mockery for another two years in the meantime though?

Also if by some miracle things went exactly how management "planned" in two years what would be the payoff? A team that is now a yearly contender right? That is the whole end goal of this "be really bad until you're really good" concept right?

lol yet people are still paying for BK and LAL games i dont see *****ing about that. Sixers are still fun to watch most nights rather you wanna believe it or not. Not like we are getting blown out every night. Not like the Knicks have much going for them outside of Porz right now, once Melos gone then what?

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 01:40 PM
but why draft a lesser talent? were not trying to build a team of role players again and there was a big drop off in talent after each of our picks. Lavine really? . We didnt have a need for Payton for Lavine anyway since we had the reigning ROY on the roster at the time so you dont even have a point here and neither are anything special or even good at the moment.

The same reason why Golden State wouldn't trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love. At a point, fit trumps talent. Love in undoubtedly better than Klay and most players, but look what happens when you force him into a role because of a talent logjam in Cleveland. That's what Hinkie has essentially been doing with his big man logjam. Even if Embiid comes back healthy and Saric comes over next year, there is no possible way for all 4 of them to thrive with so many overlapping skills and 3 of them needing to be C's. Same issue that Utah had, and how did that end up? Lost Millsap for nothing, traded Kanter for nothing.

The idea of, oh I'll just trade them later and get something awesome, very rarely happens. More so, you end up losing young players for nothing. Like Tobias Harris to Detroit, another example. Don't be surprised if the same thing happens in Philly at some point.

LaVine is a SG, so yes there was far more a need for him than a PF when you already have Noel and Embiid.

raiderposting
02-19-2016, 01:45 PM
The same reason why Golden State wouldn't trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love. At a point, fit trumps talent. Love in undoubtedly better than Klay and most players, but look what happens when you force him into a role because of a talent logjam in Cleveland. That's what Hinkie has essentially been doing with his big man logjam. Even if Embiid comes back healthy and Saric comes over next year, there is no possible way for all 4 of them to thrive with so many overlapping skills and 3 of them needing to be C's. Same issue that Utah had, and how did that end up? Lost Millsap for nothing, traded Kanter for nothing.

The idea of, oh I'll just trade them later and get something awesome, very rarely happens. More so, you end up losing young players for nothing. Like Tobias Harris to Detroit, another example. Don't be surprised if the same thing happens in Philly at some point.

LaVine is a SG, so yes there was far more a need for him than a PF when you already have Noel and Embiid.

Gtfoh Klay>love in talent not only fit.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 01:46 PM
right a fit matters when you are trying to contend not build from scratch. There are plenty of mins for 4 bigs next year especially since Embiid will be on a strict min retsriction and likely sitting out back to backs for a while. Lavine really isnt anything special, hes going to end up a 6th man for his career most likely. Not losing sleep over passing on him or Gordon (doesnt fit with Noel on offense that would be a disaster) or Exum.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 01:46 PM
Serious question for Sixers fans:

At what point do you admit "hey we had a plan, a plan that takes YEARS to implement mind you, that sounded good in theory. BUT we F'd it all up."

What more do they need to do?


This is year 3 with Brett Brown and Sam Hinkie.....the team was stuck in NBA's no mans land, a low playoff seed that can't compete in the first round.

Hinkie traded away salary, got a ton of assets, and aside from Nole, Embiid, Okafor, and Saric they got nice long term bench pieces. Convington, Thomas, Grant, are all nice bench players.

If have to be bad to have a shot at being lucky to become great. That is what they did.

Tony_Starks I wouldn't expect you to look at anything other than Kobe best ever in all things, and he should be given a medal for whatever happened in Colorado....and the Lakers cannot possibly do anything wrong.....you don't try and understand how things actually are.

Now a lot of people say the same things as you do, but they at least aren't remarkably close minded about it.

Tony_Starks
02-19-2016, 01:50 PM
I've yet to get a legitimate answer.

After the 5 year mark, what supposedly will be the big ultimate payoff if things go according to plan?

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 01:51 PM
none of these stats take into acct the talent around each. Porz is good but NO WHERE near as good as NY fans and the media make him out to be right now. If the roles were reversed it would be the same thing. Surely you understand the difference in playing on O with Melo who is the #1 option. Its not like Porz is some lock down defender, hes good at blocking shots like he should be while Oak is the better post defender just like he should be right now. Funny thing is they avg about the same rebs per game.

I understand the difference in roster, and I'm well aware that the Knicks are 0-7 without Melo for a reason. They've also been competitive in those games, and by no small part because of Porzingis' impact on both sides of the court. Just like there's a reason that Melo and KP are the only Knicks with a positive on court differential, where as Okafor's on court -16 is the worst on the team.

Do I think that's all Okafor? No, see the edited portion of my post that's in the quote. However, there is no doubting who is the more impactful player right now. Porzingis is versatile, he can post up, shoot, PnR, etc. He can defend in the post, protect the rim, defend the PnR and even defend perimeter players on switches. Okafor is a good talent, but very limited and as a result far more reliant on what's around him.

But then again, that's what separates the top players from the rest.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 01:55 PM
I've yet to get a legitimate answer.

After the 5 year mark, what supposedly will be the big ultimate payoff if things go according to plan?

Well that is 2 years away...we are currently in year 3...and you won't see a legitimate answer unless is says Lakers Win Kobe GOAT....you won't see anything else as legitimate and you prove it regularly.

I'm an opinionated SOB, but I admit when I am proven wrong, have many times on this site....I also am willing to see and judge how things actually are...I don't late hate or homerism blind me....I let me own stubbornness blind me but not hate or homerism...to you its purple and gold or its evil and horrible

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 01:56 PM
Gtfoh Klay>love in talent not only fit.

Lol, you can't be serious? :eyebrow:

Definitely a far better fit for GS, which is why I agreed with them not making that trade. But comparing someone you can build a team around to someone who is a complimentary piece in team building is a joke. But hey, I think Klay would be a great #2 to Love actually lol.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2016, 01:57 PM
I understand the difference in roster, and I'm well aware that the Knicks are 0-7 without Melo for a reason. They've also been competitive in those games, and by no small part because of Porzingis' impact on both sides of the court. Just like there's a reason that Melo and KP are the only Knicks with a positive on court differential, where as Okafor's on court -16 is the worst on the team.

Do I think that's all Okafor? No, see the edited portion of my post that's in the quote. However, there is no doubting who is the more impactful player right now. Porzingis is versatile, he can post up, shoot, PnR, etc. He can defend in the post, protect the rim, defend the PnR and even defend perimeter players on switches. Okafor is a good talent, but very limited and as a result far more reliant on what's around him.

But then again, that's what separates the top players from the rest.


I want to eat some crow....I thought and said many times on this site that I thought Porzingis had legs that where to thin and I was concerned about how he would hold up...I never questioned his talent but I did the size of his legs...He has proven me wrong, and while I am not going to judge any player off of a rookie year, he looks like he is certainly the real deal and I hope to see him and the Sixers bigs going back and forth for the next decade.

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 02:02 PM
right a fit matters when you are trying to contend not build from scratch. There are plenty of mins for 4 bigs next year especially since Embiid will be on a strict min retsriction and likely sitting out back to backs for a while. Lavine really isnt anything special, hes going to end up a 6th man for his career most likely. Not losing sleep over passing on him or Gordon (doesnt fit with Noel on offense that would be a disaster) or Exum.

Again, that's what Utah tried and look how that turned out. You had 4 bigs in a logjam with none of them being able to play their full game and they ended up losing two of them for zlich. It matters because there is one ball and for these prospects to develop at their best they need to be put in the best position to do so. What's going to help Okafor develop more, a good PG/wing who can play off him and take the pressure off, or being cramped in tight space with another big and no perimeter talent?

Why would you knock LaVine, when he is no worse a prospect than someone like Noel who is just a defensive big? I agree that the offensive fit with Noel and Gordon would have been iffy. One, Noel sucks on offense. Two, Gordon is raw there. A lot of that pairing success would hinge on Gordon's offensive game developing big time. But at least they would be dominant on D and the boards, and they would get a lot of easy points in transition.

Would they really be worse than the Okafor and Noel pairing that gets outscored by 20 points per 48 when together? I doubt it.

FOXHOUND
02-19-2016, 02:15 PM
I want to eat some crow....I thought and said many times on this site that I thought Porzingis had legs that where to thin and I was concerned about how he would hold up...I never questioned his talent but I did the size of his legs...He has proven me wrong, and while I am not going to judge any player off of a rookie year, he looks like he is certainly the real deal and I hope to see him and the Sixers bigs going back and forth for the next decade.

Don't worry man, KP has exceeded all of our expectations lol. I can't tell you the relief I had after seeing his D in summer league. That was my biggest fear, beyond his frame at his age. I can't wait to see what he's like when he fills out.

I hope the same for Philly man, the more good division teams the better :D

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 02:47 PM
Again, that's what Utah tried and look how that turned out. You had 4 bigs in a logjam with none of them being able to play their full game and they ended up losing two of them for zlich. It matters because there is one ball and for these prospects to develop at their best they need to be put in the best position to do so. What's going to help Okafor develop more, a good PG/wing who can play off him and take the pressure off, or being cramped in tight space with another big and no perimeter talent?

Why would you knock LaVine, when he is no worse a prospect than someone like Noel who is just a defensive big? I agree that the offensive fit with Noel and Gordon would have been iffy. One, Noel sucks on offense. Two, Gordon is raw there. A lot of that pairing success would hinge on Gordon's offensive game developing big time. But at least they would be dominant on D and the boards, and they would get a lot of easy points in transition.

Would they really be worse than the Okafor and Noel pairing that gets outscored by 20 points per 48 when together? I doubt it.

yet Okafor and Noel have being improving their play together a lot going into the break, it shouldnt be a shock that it took them some time to figure things out. They both believe they can be a force together and while its certainly not gonna happen this year, strides are being made towards them being a good pairing. Ish Smith has played a big role in that too as both are top 5 in FG% since his arrival with Noel tops in the league there. We also have loads of assets going forward with the Miami and LA picks and the brilliant robbery of Sactown for 2 draft picks that could convey as late as 4 years from now unprotected. As for KP im not so sure he can defend the post, Okafor had his way quite easily with him (with Towns too) and was able to stay in front of him on the other end.

TheIlladelph16
02-19-2016, 03:35 PM
Wait... Why is Tony Starks in here bashing the Sixers for doing the same thing that the Lakers are doing, only better?

At least the Sixers are actually upfront about it with their fans.

mudvayne387
02-19-2016, 03:43 PM
Jrue Holiday
Lou Williams
Evan Turner
Thaddeus Young
Nikola Vucevic

This would potentially be the 76ers starting five if they kept everyone together. Not too shabby.

Holiday, Young and Vucevuc are all having great years. Turner is playing 27 minutes per night on the third seed in the east. And Young (well he kind of sucks) but is still capable of scoring the basketball Ala Al Harrington.

Not to mention, whose to say they couldn't of attracted some nice pieces via free agency if they really tried. Perhaps a Wes Matthews or Aaron Afflalo at the 2 spot. Or moved Turner to SG and went after Parsons etc...

Anyways the point is, I'd rather have the starting 5 listed above over that abomination of a roster they have now with 8 centers and no PG.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 03:59 PM
Jrue Holiday
Lou Williams
Evan Turner
Thaddeus Young
Nikola Vucevic

This would potentially be the 76ers starting five if they kept everyone together. Not too shabby.

Holiday, Young and Vucevuc are all having great years. Turner is playing 27 minutes per night on the third seed in the east. And Young (well he kind of sucks) but is still capable of scoring the basketball Ala Al Harrington.

Not to mention, whose to say they couldn't of attracted some nice pieces via free agency if they really tried. Perhaps a Wes Matthews or Aaron Afflalo at the 2 spot. Or moved Turner to SG and went after Parsons etc...

Anyways the point is, I'd rather have the starting 5 listed above over that abomination of a roster they have now with 8 centers and no PG.

um no Vuc was traded by the old FO before hinkie. Thats a **** team who finishes 7-8 and gets rolled every year first round. Sorry bro we want a chance at a real contender not the same old mediocre teams we dealt with for 10 years.

valade16
02-19-2016, 04:21 PM
I have done my fair share of second guessing the 76ers strategy but I don't see how you can say it's been a failure at this point. Their strategy was to 1. Tear down the team to an intentionally terrible level 2. Acquire the maximum level of assets possible in the hopes of getting a superstar 3. Rebuild around that superstar.

They clearly aren't on level 3 yet so it's obvious they achieved level 1 and are currently on level 2. For what they're trying to do, they've thus far been successful at implementing their strategy.

My contention is the 2nd half of part 2 (acquiring a superstar) and part 3 (building around him) are by far the hardest parts. But so far they haven't failed at what they were trying to do.

mudvayne387
02-19-2016, 04:34 PM
um no Vuc was traded by the old FO before hinkie. Thats a **** team who finishes 7-8 and gets rolled every year first round. Sorry bro we want a chance at a real contender not the same old mediocre teams we dealt with for 10 years.

Ok but he was still on the roster at one point was he not ?

I don't know what you've seen in the past three seasons that would make you think the 76ers will be a contender anytime in the near future.

As it stands, your F/O has been tanking with the hopes of landing a superstar. So far you've netted a defensive minded center (nice player), a lazy out of shape 300lb oft injured center who makes Anthony Bennett look like Shaq, and yet another center who is allergic to defense. I understand going the BPA route, but what exactly is the end goal ? I've seen more talented guards on mid major college teams.

Tony_Starks
02-19-2016, 04:48 PM
Wait... Why is Tony Starks in here bashing the Sixers for doing the same thing that the Lakers are doing, only better?

At least the Sixers are actually upfront about it with their fans.


Who's bashing?

Am asking a simple question that no Philly fan seems to know the answer to.

What will be the reward of all this?

Really simple, straight forward question.

ewing
02-19-2016, 04:51 PM
I have done my fair share of second guessing the 76ers strategy but I don't see how you can say it's been a failure at this point. Their strategy was to 1. Tear down the team to an intentionally terrible level 2. Acquire the maximum level of assets possible in the hopes of getting a superstar 3. Rebuild around that superstar.

They clearly aren't on level 3 yet so it's obvious they achieved level 1 and are currently on level 2. For what they're trying to do, they've thus far been successful at implementing their strategy.

My contention is the 2nd half of part 2 (acquiring a superstar) and part 3 (building around him) are by far the hardest parts. But so far they haven't failed at what they were trying to do.

I agree. I don't Sixer's fan realize that some fans just flat reject this strategy. being historically bad until you hit the jack pot is not something the league should tolerate IMO. The excuse that we don't want to be on a mediocre treadmill does nothing for me. If you don't get a little lucky and max out at OK that's the breaks. you shouldn't be allowed to lose until a transcendent player falls in your lap

mngopher35
02-19-2016, 05:10 PM
I have done my fair share of second guessing the 76ers strategy but I don't see how you can say it's been a failure at this point. Their strategy was to 1. Tear down the team to an intentionally terrible level 2. Acquire the maximum level of assets possible in the hopes of getting a superstar 3. Rebuild around that superstar.

They clearly aren't on level 3 yet so it's obvious they achieved level 1 and are currently on level 2. For what they're trying to do, they've thus far been successful at implementing their strategy.

My contention is the 2nd half of part 2 (acquiring a superstar) and part 3 (building around him) are by far the hardest parts. But so far they haven't failed at what they were trying to do.

Yup, they still have the hardest parts ahead of them but haven't screwed up yet really. I think the biggest issue/controversy comes from the many fans who just don't agree with tanking as a strategy. A few because they think it won't work and others who just think it is a B.S. move to try to be bad (or not attempt to be good is maybe better wording) instead of trying to compete. The ladder is what I think can really turn people off because it would suck if more teams started taking this route once they knew they weren't contenders. I also think it is kinda lame for a team to really attempt to stay noncompetitive for a stretch to accomplish that but it's not the only way to suck and can also happen just by poor management too (see wolves).

Personally I think with the way the nba and draft work it is probably the best thing for a middle tier team with little other assets to do though. Rebuild for a 3-5 yr stretch and then move forward with those young assets/picks accumulated. To me that is almost more of a system problem than team issue though because what the 76ers doing might be the best strategy despite it being bad for the league if it were to grow. So in the end I get where the bashing comes from but 76ers fans will obviously defend it because the potential for their future is brighter.

53 HOWARD
02-19-2016, 05:20 PM
I got no problems with the sixers but to me there approach to building a team is lazy. Instead of tying to build a team and compete there sucking on purpose so the next superstar falls into there laps.

Aust
02-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Right, except that Porzingis is a much better player than Okafor, both in versatility and being an two-way impact player.

When Porzingis is on the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 107.3 and a DRating of 106.1, a +1.2 net
When Porzingis is off the court, the Knicks have an ORating of 102.6 and a DRating of 109.0, a -6.4 net
Total on/off difference is +7.6

When Okafor is on the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 94.3 and a DRating of 110.3, a -16.0 net
When Okfafor is off the court, the 76ers have an ORating of 100.6 and a DRating of 105.0, a -4.4 net
Total on/off difference is -11.6

One is making his team much better on both sides of the court, one is making his team much worse on both sides of the court. Maybe part of that is due to the construction of the 76ers roster, but hey that's "the plan", right?

EDIT: And for the record, I actually like Okafor the player. I think he's getting screwed by that roster. Between being a post player on offense and a weak defensive player, he needs a roster built around him properly for them to be effective. The 76ers aren't built to do anything. Maybe he's a relic in today's game, who knows, but he's not in a great position to prove that one way or the other.

I'm curious, what would that roster look like?

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 05:38 PM
Ok but he was still on the roster at one point was he not ?

I don't know what you've seen in the past three seasons that would make you think the 76ers will be a contender anytime in the near future.

As it stands, your F/O has been tanking with the hopes of landing a superstar. So far you've netted a defensive minded center (nice player), a lazy out of shape 300lb oft injured center who makes Anthony Bennett look like Shaq, and yet another center who is allergic to defense. I understand going the BPA route, but what exactly is the end goal ? I've seen more talented guards on mid major college teams.

who are you talking about? Cant be that ignorant to be talking about Okafor and fi you mean Bynum youre just clueless.

Plenty of guys were once on the team but whats that have to do with anyone who has played since hinkie arrived?

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 05:40 PM
I agree. I don't Sixer's fan realize that some fans just flat reject this strategy. being historically bad until you hit the jack pot is not something the league should tolerate IMO. The excuse that we don't want to be on a mediocre treadmill does nothing for me. If you don't get a little lucky and max out at OK that's the breaks. you shouldn't be allowed to lose until a transcendent player falls in your lap

Were not just losing until we find that guy, even Hinkie doesnt have that kind of time. We all expect winning moves to be made int he off-season and the draft and start building towards a potential playoff team and further.

ewing
02-19-2016, 06:04 PM
Were not just losing until we find that guy, even Hinkie doesnt have that kind of time. We all expect winning moves to be made int he off-season and the draft and start building towards a potential playoff team and further.

i think we are finally starting to see that i also think hinkie abused the system by paying guys not to play order to reach the salary floor and just collecting assets without regard to fit and filling the team with D leaguers. They paid the price too. Agent don't like him. I am sure some players are weary and the Sixers didn't get a workout, physical, or interview with KP.

2-ONE-5
02-19-2016, 09:32 PM
eh thats all overblown. none of that KP stuff came out til way after the draft and I doubt it had any impact if we really wanted him. Money and a chance to win talk and hopefully we will have both in the next few years. Its not like going to LAL, BK, Sac or a few other teams is appealing to players. If we contend for a playoff spot or more next year (def possible depending on the off season) players will take notice. We are also building a state of the art campus where the new practice facility will be, there will be plenty of things to attract players if this all comes together. Also having JC and Mikey D will help with the FA side as well.

warfelg
02-20-2016, 09:36 AM
http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-76ers/report-jahlil-okafor-was-celtics-target-proposed-blockbuster

Well looks like Jah was a lot closer to moving than 99.9% of Sixers fans would admit.

Of course this means most will go after me and call this a non-supported report.

SeoulBeatz
02-20-2016, 12:58 PM
http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-76ers/report-jahlil-okafor-was-celtics-target-proposed-blockbuster

Well looks like Jah was a lot closer to moving than 99.9% of Sixers fans would admit.

Of course this means most will go after me and call this a non-supported report.

wow, don't think you could get a better offer for Okafor than that. Glad we held off though.

although that would've given us our 1st, Brooklyn's 1st, Lakers 1st (top 3 protected), Miami's 1st, OKC's 1st, and the right to swap 1st with kings this year. pretty crazy.

Although it's a weak draft outside of Simmons and Ingram there are still a few players outside of the top 2 that intrigue me like Jaylen Brown, Hield, Murray, and Rabb.

We all know the sixer's are in desperate need of wings and a pg. To come out of this draft with Simmons or Ingram, and Murray or Rabb would be huge.

I def wouldn't mind a

Ish Smith/ TJ
Murray/ Covington/ Stauskus
Ingram/ Grant
Okafor/ Saric
Noel/ embiid

lineup next year.

SeoulBeatz
02-20-2016, 01:12 PM
Who's bashing?

Am asking a simple question that no Philly fan seems to know the answer to.

What will be the reward of all this?

Really simple, straight forward question.

we don't know, that's what makes it so much fun lol. After the Bynum trade we had no other recourse but to tank.

Our pre-hinkie roster consisted of Jrue Holiday, andrew bynum, evan turner, thaddeus young, spencer hawes, jodie meeks, jason richardson, nick young, and arnett moultrie.

Let me ask YOU a question...

What moves could we have made to turn THAT 2013 roster into a contender?

keep in mind we didn't have cap space to sign any max free agents nor do we have the luxury of luring free agents on location alone a la Miami, NYC, and LA.

if old management were still in place our roster would probably look something like

Holiday
Meeks
Turner
Thad Young
Monroe (that would've been such a typical pre-hinkie signing)

That roster screams another 5 years of mediocrity. Why not spend those 5 years acquiring assets and rebuilding instead?

Tanking was the best option. I spent a decade of my life watching teams that never had to a chance to contend, it was fun while it lasted, but pressing the reset button and acquiring assets and picks was a welcome change of pace.

Alayla
02-20-2016, 01:55 PM
Jrue Holiday
Lou Williams
Evan Turner
Thaddeus Young
Nikola Vucevic

This would potentially be the 76ers starting five if they kept everyone together. Not too shabby.

Holiday, Young and Vucevuc are all having great years. Turner is playing 27 minutes per night on the third seed in the east. And Young (well he kind of sucks) but is still capable of scoring the basketball Ala Al Harrington.

Not to mention, whose to say they couldn't of attracted some nice pieces via free agency if they really tried. Perhaps a Wes Matthews or Aaron Afflalo at the 2 spot. Or moved Turner to SG and went after Parsons etc...

Anyways the point is, I'd rather have the starting 5 listed above over that abomination of a roster they have now with 8 centers and no PG.

He was delt in the Bynum trade this was before hinkie so its not remotely fair to consider him
Also Holiday is often injured that team would be bad like miss the playoffs every year bad.

Chronz
02-20-2016, 01:57 PM
I'm curious, what would that roster look like?

Non playmaking/rebounding Bigmen who cant space the floor on one end and dont shrink it on the other can only be optimally supported by a frontcourt partner who can do the latter 2 and those guys are so rare they've become stars of their own, role playing stars exist, this is off track but I hate how often people think big names trump complimenting talent when it comes to measuring roster support.


Anyways, he would thrive next to Ibaka for sure, Green, Diaw, Duncan, basically the bigs that are on the most winning teams. I want to name Milsap/Horford but at that point your not really building around Okafor anymore. Building around Okafor is similar to the problem the Clips have avoided by not building around Blake. Though Blake has vastly improved his shooting/range to make room for DJ.

I think any team that builds with Okafor has to realize they are likely going to have to choose between valuing O vs D and I think a defensive 4 would make more sense.

Ibaka is currently doing what he would for Okafor, only for Enes Kanter when he comes in. Havent checked on its success rate but its telling that a player more productive than Okafor has to come off the bench to really help a contender and its precisely because they are relics.

Alayla
02-20-2016, 02:00 PM
Ok but he was still on the roster at one point was he not ?

I don't know what you've seen in the past three seasons that would make you think the 76ers will be a contender anytime in the near future.

As it stands, your F/O has been tanking with the hopes of landing a superstar. So far you've netted a defensive minded center (nice player), a lazy out of shape 300lb oft injured center who makes Anthony Bennett look like Shaq, and yet another center who is allergic to defense. I understand going the BPA route, but what exactly is the end goal ? I've seen more talented guards on mid major college teams.

Lol Embiid is Jacked and in the best shape of his life right now he refuted those reports a long time ago.
As for his foot contrary to popular belief he never re-injured it he grew 2 inches and it screwed up the healing process but there is much optimism about his condition now that hes stopped growing.
But even if Embiid never plays a single game we are still in a drastically better situation going forward than if we kept Holiday and Turner.
This coming from a MAJOR Holiday fan.

Vinylman
02-20-2016, 02:13 PM
So we can throw another year or two in the garbage can before the obvious is accepted? Cool.

As a fan why would I want to purchase a ticket to see this mockery for another two years in the meantime though?

Also if by some miracle things went exactly how management "planned" in two years what would be the payoff? A team that is now a yearly contender right? That is the whole end goal of this "be really bad until you're really good" concept right?

where is your outrage for the Wolves and Magic? They have both been worse longer and have had better picks

people attacking Philly are laughable

SeoulBeatz
02-20-2016, 02:15 PM
Lol Embiid is Jacked and in the best shape of his life right now he refuted those reports a long time ago.
As for his foot contrary to popular belief he never re-injured it he grew 2 inches and it screwed up the healing process but there is much optimism about his condition now that hes stopped growing.
But even if Embiid never plays a single game we are still in a drastically better situation going forward than if we kept Holiday and Turner.
This coming from a MAJOR Holiday fan.

what a tub of lard...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWAIaL-WUAAZYBG.png

SeoulBeatz
02-20-2016, 02:45 PM
Who's bashing?

Am asking a simple question that no Philly fan seems to know the answer to.

What will be the reward of all this?

Really simple, straight forward question.

you've been one of the biggest sixer bashers on this site. i didn't even know you were a laker fan until recently, so that makes it all the more ridiculous.

we're in the same boat buddy.

you want that number one pick just as bad as we do.

the lakeshow made moves in hopes of keeping some semblance of competitiveness (signing lou will, bass, and hibbert) but in the end they were just a waste of money. Is that really any better than going with an all youth movement and developing some of them into NBA talent?

If you're gonna tank, go all in. The Sixer's might have a roster of D-leaguers but some of them have turned into solid roleplayers (Covington, TJ Mcconnell, Richaun Holmes, and Jerami Grant).

It's good to have vet leadership, but overpaying them in hopes of staying mediocre is a lateral move at best.

I mean, if i were a laker fan, I wouldn't have wanted to sign Lou will, Bass, and Hibbert.

Instead i would rather take a flier on some d-league talent while allocating the minutes that went to those bust signings and giving those to Russell, Randle, Clarkson, and Nance JR instead.

Give those guys as many opportunities to develop as possible. Kobe is enough veteran leadership for one team. As much as people like to bash him you aren't going to find another nba vet with as much pedigree and experience as him and from what i've heard he's doing a great job at mentoring DLo.

mngopher35
02-20-2016, 03:12 PM
where is your outrage for the Wolves and Magic? They have both been worse longer and have had better picks

people attacking Philly are laughable

I mentioned this in my post too how it can just happen through incompetence as well. Again though I think the bigger issue with people is the mindset that we are going to attempt to tank. It goes against the "spirit of the game" if you will to just attempt to suck for 5 years or so etc. I don't think the issue is so much that they are as bad as those teams over that time, it is that they want to be and have made no attempts to field competitive teams like others have (even if those attempts failed due to their poor management). There is the issue last year with making the trades to hit the floor (agents supposedly had issue and maybe players as well), giving up a young prospect because he signed a short deal and might make a little more than rookie salary, dumping vets and not attempting to sign fa with the extra cap to improve team etc.

Now don't get me wrong as I think what they have been doing is smart for the organization. If I were trying to build a team I would have made similar moves myself probably but again that doesn't make it good for the nba/league. Not the 76ers fault at all but just saying it is more than just them sucking, it is the entire approach they have taken that rub people wrong.

Aust
02-20-2016, 05:06 PM
Non playmaking/rebounding Bigmen who cant space the floor on one end and dont shrink it on the other can only be optimally supported by a frontcourt partner who can do the latter 2 and those guys are so rare they've become stars of their own, role playing stars exist, this is off track but I hate how often people think big names trump complimenting talent when it comes to measuring roster support.


Anyways, he would thrive next to Ibaka for sure, Green, Diaw, Duncan, basically the bigs that are on the most winning teams. I want to name Milsap/Horford but at that point your not really building around Okafor anymore. Building around Okafor is similar to the problem the Clips have avoided by not building around Blake. Though Blake has vastly improved his shooting/range to make room for DJ.

I think any team that builds with Okafor has to realize they are likely going to have to choose between valuing O vs D and I think a defensive 4 would make more sense.

Ibaka is currently doing what he would for Okafor, only for Enes Kanter when he comes in. Havent checked on its success rate but its telling that a player more productive than Okafor has to come off the bench to really help a contender and its precisely because they are relics.

By what extent do you think Okafor can improve on D? Do you think his ceiling will always be low there?

I just can't picture a team winning a chip with him as the starting 5 unless something changes.

Aust
02-20-2016, 05:11 PM
we're in the same boat buddy.

you want that number one pick just as bad as we do.

I'm curious, 6er fans, would you rather have Simmons or Ingram?

5ass
02-20-2016, 05:17 PM
where is your outrage for the Wolves and Magic? They have both been worse longer and have had better picks

people attacking Philly are laughable

The Magic are basically done with their rebuild. Three years of 20ish wins is not bad at all for a rebuild through the draft. Now they're on pace for 38 wins. Plus the magic had guys like big baby, afflalo, jj redick and nelson. They didn't sell everyone for 2nd rounders and d-league players. They did tank but it wasn't so obvious. They signed guys like Frye, Ben Gordon to contribute, and even fired their coach midseason. Plus the magic never won less than 20 games. Let's see how long it takes Philly to crack 30 wins. I'm not here to criticize the sixers, but if you can't see the differences in their rebuilds, you're not looking hard enough.

As for the wolves, they were just incompetent.

valade16
02-20-2016, 06:05 PM
where is your outrage for the Wolves and Magic? They have both been worse longer and have had better picks

people attacking Philly are laughable

The Wolves had 40 wins 3 years ago. This is only the 2nd consecutive year they've been terrible. Yes they traded Love to tear down and build a new core, but it was with the intent to be good again as quick as possible.

They didn't trade Rubio, they didn't trade Pekovic. They brought in KG. Their approach to rebuilding could not be any different than Philly philosophically.

Actually it must irk Philly fans that Minny got the 2 franchise level players they've been searching for while trying not to be terrible forever lol.

STRIKERC
02-20-2016, 08:21 PM
By what extent do you think Okafor can improve on D? Do you think his ceiling will always be low there?

I just can't picture a team winning a chip with him as the starting 5 unless something changes.

In the grand scheme of things Okafor is not going to play the starting five spot for Philly. There's a dude called Embiid that Sixers brass are still high on. Yes, they see him everyday and believe he's going to be special.

STRIKERC
02-20-2016, 08:26 PM
The Wolves had 40 wins 3 years ago. This is only the 2nd consecutive year they've been terrible. Yes they traded Love to tear down and build a new core, but it was with the intent to be good again as quick as possible.

They didn't trade Rubio, they didn't trade Pekovic. They brought in KG. Their approach to rebuilding could not be any different than Philly philosophically.

Actually it must irk Philly fans that Minny got the 2 franchise level players they've been searching for while trying not to be terrible forever lol.

So Wolves had a head start on their rebuild by trading a Star/Superstar player for Wiggins. Something tells me if Hinkie inherited Kevin Love caliber player he would not be tanking a third straight year.
As we speak Wolves are still 5th from the bottom and they were the worst team in the league last year.

STRIKERC
02-20-2016, 08:28 PM
The Magic are basically done with their rebuild. Three years of 20ish wins is not bad at all for a rebuild through the draft. Now they're on pace for 38 wins. Plus the magic had guys like big baby, afflalo, jj redick and nelson. They didn't sell everyone for 2nd rounders and d-league players. They did tank but it wasn't so obvious. They signed guys like Frye, Ben Gordon to contribute, and even fired their coach midseason. Plus the magic never won less than 20 games. Let's see how long it takes Philly to crack 30 wins. I'm not here to criticize the sixers, but if you can't see the differences in their rebuilds, you're not looking hard enough.

As for the wolves, they were just incompetent.

I really feel sorry for Magic fans if that team as its currently constructed is done rebuilding. Good luck staying in NBA purgatory.

5ass
02-20-2016, 08:34 PM
I really feel sorry for Magic fans if that team as its currently constructed is done rebuilding. Good luck staying in NBA purgatory.

Lol yes it feels terible having 2 20 yr old top 5 picks, a 21 yr old PG, the second youngest team in the league, around 55 mill in capspace in the offseason, and still competing for the play offs.

mngopher35
02-20-2016, 09:07 PM
So Wolves had a head start on their rebuild by trading a Star/Superstar player for Wiggins. Something tells me if Hinkie inherited Kevin Love caliber player he would not be tanking a third straight year.
As we speak Wolves are still 5th from the bottom and they were the worst team in the league last year.

He is talking about the way each team is going about their strategies as well not just outcome (although I can expand on that if you wanna make the comparison). The Wolves after that trade still tried to compete instead of just trading everyone away for assets unlike the 76ers (although I almost wish we would have with a couple guys haha). Then this year instead of deciding to trade and tank we brought in some vets to help mentor the young guys/contribute defensively while keeping our current vets. We started 8-8 even but with Mitchell as coach that wasn't sustainable unfortunately and yet again come the deadline we didn't just start trading away non rookie deal vets for value to tank. It is very clear that there are differences in the approach of the Wolves under Flip compared to the 76ers.

As for outcome 76ers have been last, 2nd to last, and last in SRS the last 3 years without hitting 20 wins once (assuming no big streak coming). The Wolves this year will most likely not finish bottom 2 in SRS nor fail to get 20 wins so even if we judge this rebuild now at year 2 we are ahead of any of those 76ers seasons. We were lucky for sure but I wanted to expand on your point of us still being bottom 5 because that is actually a sign of progress for a young developing team who is attempting to bring in pieces and win in yr 2 (double the wins of Philly currently in yr 3). These aren't the same situations and we had more luck so I don't wanna focus too much on just results but the philosophies of the front offices have been different.

5ass
02-20-2016, 09:17 PM
I think its funny that some sixers fans will count the sixers failed bynum trial-season when trying to justify that the sixers havent been that bad. They will give you their win average including yhat year. But when it comes to "how long have we been rebuilding" they say they werent rebuilding because they were trying to compete with bynum. Lol cant have it both ways but the truth lies right in the middle.

D-Leethal
02-20-2016, 09:41 PM
The Magic are basically done with their rebuild. Three years of 20ish wins is not bad at all for a rebuild through the draft. Now they're on pace for 38 wins. Plus the magic had guys like big baby, afflalo, jj redick and nelson. They didn't sell everyone for 2nd rounders and d-league players. They did tank but it wasn't so obvious. They signed guys like Frye, Ben Gordon to contribute, and even fired their coach midseason. Plus the magic never won less than 20 games. Let's see how long it takes Philly to crack 30 wins. I'm not here to criticize the sixers, but if you can't see the differences in their rebuilds, you're not looking hard enough.

As for the wolves, they were just incompetent.

Agreed - I wouldn't even call the Magic's plan "tanking" over "rebuilding". Magic put in an effort to get better each year and win some games, they were looking for progress, making an effort to be more competitive. Philly hasn't been looking for any progress in 3 years, they refused to do it until the magical golden draft pick drops into their laps. Magic did not do that - they took the cards they were dealt each draft and tried to get better the next season regardless if that guy was the golden franchise player every team tanks for. Philly hasn't signed any legitimate NBA veterans, they haven't spent money for a legitimate NBA product. There is a reason the league forced them to bring in Colangelo to stop the madness. The rest of the owners were pissed because it was an embarrassment to the league.

Alayla
02-20-2016, 10:08 PM
I think its funny that some sixers fans will count the sixers failed bynum trial-season when trying to justify that the sixers havent been that bad. They will give you their win average including yhat year. But when it comes to "how long have we been rebuilding" they say they werent rebuilding because they were trying to compete with bynum. Lol cant have it both ways but the truth lies right in the middle.

I literally have never seen a single person do this.
Its like your just making **** up at this point.

5ass
02-20-2016, 10:16 PM
Agreed - I wouldn't even call the Magic's plan "tanking" over "rebuilding". Magic put in an effort to get better each year and win some games, they were looking for progress, making an effort to be more competitive. Philly hasn't been looking for any progress in 3 years, they refused to do it until the magical golden draft pick drops into their laps. Magic did not do that - they took the cards they were dealt each draft and tried to get better the next season regardless if that guy was the golden franchise player every team tanks for. Philly hasn't signed any legitimate NBA veterans, they haven't spent money for a legitimate NBA product. There is a reason the league forced them to bring in Colangelo to stop the madness. The rest of the owners were pissed because it was an embarrassment to the league.
Exactly. Its an entirely different culture. Magice are drafting what they see as their guy and trying to develop them. They've built a team of high character and high work ethic players and they're betting on their development. All credit goes to rob hennigan. He's the youngest GM in the league but i think he has amazing foresight. I would be pissed if he gets fired. He's one of the reasons i trust the magic will be a competitiv team. So many moves i doubted initially only to be proven wrong i cant even doubt him anymore. Just watch a good GM work his magic. Hinkie has had it much easier than hennigan, and the results are TBD, but for now one of these GMs needed help to do their job and the other guy didnt.

So lets not get too carried away with the sixers bashing, but also recognize their strategy for wgat it is. I used to bash the sixers more than anyone abd the sixers fans can confirm that lil. But now i feel people sometimes get too carried away.

5ass
02-20-2016, 10:18 PM
I literally have never seen a single person do this.
Its like your just making **** up at this point.

No im not just talking about this thread either. I dont care if you believe it TBH

Vinylman
02-21-2016, 12:06 AM
The Magic are basically done with their rebuild. Three years of 20ish wins is not bad at all for a rebuild through the draft. Now they're on pace for 38 wins. Plus the magic had guys like big baby, afflalo, jj redick and nelson. They didn't sell everyone for 2nd rounders and d-league players. They did tank but it wasn't so obvious. They signed guys like Frye, Ben Gordon to contribute, and even fired their coach midseason. Plus the magic never won less than 20 games. Let's see how long it takes Philly to crack 30 wins. I'm not here to criticize the sixers, but if you can't see the differences in their rebuilds, you're not looking hard enough.

As for the wolves, they were just incompetent.

typical... Orlando started a rebuild by trading a perennial all star for a ton of pieces... what exactly did Hinkie inherit?

and since even you admit Orlando tanked your objection must be over form rather than substance

I see clearly what the GM's in Orlando, Minnesota, and Philly inherited and to argue that Philly was even close to those situations is laughable

SeoulBeatz
02-21-2016, 12:11 AM
I think its funny that some sixers fans will count the sixers failed bynum trial-season when trying to justify that the sixers havent been that bad. They will give you their win average including yhat year. But when it comes to "how long have we been rebuilding" they say they werent rebuilding because they were trying to compete with bynum. Lol cant have it both ways but the truth lies right in the middle.

?? Who said that besides one sixers fan? The Sixers were obviously trying to compete with bynum. That's why they brought in 2 shooters in nick young and j rich to spread the floor for him. After the 2012-13 season it became clear that Bynum would never suit up for the team, so new management came in and began the rebuild. Who are these sixer fans that are denying this?

valade16
02-21-2016, 01:32 AM
typical... Orlando started a rebuild by trading a perennial all star for a ton of pieces... what exactly did Hinkie inherit?

and since even you admit Orlando tanked your objection must be over form rather than substance

I see clearly what the GM's in Orlando, Minnesota, and Philly inherited and to argue that Philly was even close to those situations is laughable

While they didn't have a player the caliber of Love or Howard the 76ers weren't bereft of talent.

He traded Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thaddeus Young and Spencer Hawes.

Heck, they got arguably as much for Jrue as Minny did for Love. Philly got Noel AND a future 1st, Minny got Wiggins (as a rookie) and known bust Bennett.

Not to mention Philly was involved in both the trade for Howard and the trade for Wiggins (granted, the Howard one was before Hinkie).

But this is the revisionist history. You're trying to make it sound like they were as talentless before Hinkie as after he got there and it isn't true. He inherited talent, he just got rid of ALL of it.

Alayla
02-21-2016, 02:09 AM
While they didn't have a player the caliber of Love or Howard the 76ers weren't bereft of talent.

He traded Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thaddeus Young and Spencer Hawes.

Heck, they got arguably as much for Jrue as Minny did for Love. Philly got Noel AND a future 1st, Minny got Wiggins (as a rookie) and known bust Bennett.

Not to mention Philly was involved in both the trade for Howard and the trade for Wiggins (granted, the Howard one was before Hinkie).

But this is the revisionist history. You're trying to make it sound like they were as talentless before Hinkie as after he got there and it isn't true. He inherited talent, he just got rid of ALL of it.

I will give you Young i guess even though hes ideally a bench guy. But in what world are Turner and Hawes "Talent"

5ass
02-21-2016, 03:32 AM
typical... Orlando started a rebuild by trading a perennial all star for a ton of pieces... what exactly did Hinkie inherit?

and since even you admit Orlando tanked your objection must be over form rather than substance

I see clearly what the GM's in Orlando, Minnesota, and Philly inherited and to argue that Philly was even close to those situations is laughable
A 22 yr old allstar.

STRIKERC
02-21-2016, 07:10 AM
While they didn't have a player the caliber of Love or Howard the 76ers weren't bereft of talent.

He traded Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thaddeus Young and Spencer Hawes.

Heck, they got arguably as much for Jrue as Minny did for Love. Philly got Noel AND a future 1st, Minny got Wiggins (as a rookie) and known bust Bennett.

Not to mention Philly was involved in both the trade for Howard and the trade for Wiggins (granted, the Howard one was before Hinkie).

But this is the revisionist history. You're trying to make it sound like they were as talentless before Hinkie as after he got there and it isn't true. He inherited talent, he just got rid of ALL of it.

You're comparing the 6th pick in the worst draft class in recent memory to the 1st overall pick in a loaded class?

STRIKERC
02-21-2016, 07:12 AM
A 22 yr old allstar.

And you really believe Holiday is an all star caliber player?

valade16
02-21-2016, 11:24 AM
You're comparing the 6th pick in the worst draft class in recent memory to the 1st overall pick in a loaded class?

It wasn't the 1st overall pick, it was already Andrew Wiggins by that point.

Plus Philly got an additional 1st Rd pick in the deal for Jrue.

Again, quit acting like Philly had nothing to trade, they had assets and traded them. As I said, They didn't have a player as good as Love or Howard but that isn't why they still suck 3 years later.

It's because their plan was to suck 3 years later.

valade16
02-21-2016, 11:26 AM
And you really believe Holiday is an all star caliber player?

What he believes is irrelevant, at the time he was traded he was 22 years old and an All-Star.

That is a factual statement.

Alayla
02-21-2016, 02:11 PM
What he believes is irrelevant, at the time he was traded he was 22 years old and an All-Star.

That is a factual statement.

factual or not it still comes of as facetious in no way was holiday as good as he looked on paper back then and everyone knew that even fans of him.
You guys make it sound like keeping Holiday means we end up with a superstar PG. Hinkie FLEECED in that holiday deal. He should be praised for that it shouldn't be a point against him.
But even then no one is saying Holiday was not talented we are saying the rest of that roster was below average players at the BEST of times and total garbage at the worst.

valade16
02-21-2016, 02:45 PM
factual or not it still comes of as facetious in no way was holiday as good as he looked on paper back then and everyone knew that even fans of him.
You guys make it sound like keeping Holiday means we end up with a superstar PG. Hinkie FLEECED in that holiday deal. He should be praised for that it shouldn't be a point against him.
But even then no one is saying Holiday was not talented we are saying the rest of that roster was below average players at the BEST of times and total garbage at the worst.

I agree, he also fleeced Milwaukee in the MCW trade. He is very good at trading. But that's only one part of being a GM.

5ass
02-21-2016, 05:19 PM
factual or not it still comes of as facetious in no way was holiday as good as he looked on paper back then and everyone knew that even fans of him.
You guys make it sound like keeping Holiday means we end up with a superstar PG. Hinkie FLEECED in that holiday deal. He should be praised for that it shouldn't be a point against him.
But even then no one is saying Holiday was not talented we are saying the rest of that roster was below average players at the BEST of times and total garbage at the worst.

Holiday had a lot of value at that point. Hinkie fleeced them mainly because he didn't provide the pelicans with the proper information regarding Jrue's health. Otherwise it would've been Noel and a late pick for a healthy Jrue Holiday, which would've looked much much better for the pelicans.

Its sixers fans who act like Hinkie was left with trash, and he had no choice but to tank in that manner because apparently that's the only way to build a championship team.

2-ONE-5
02-21-2016, 05:28 PM
lol Jrue, Thad, Hawes, ET would be such a good sqaud! get real. They had such a good season together without Bynum, oh wait.

5ass
02-21-2016, 05:34 PM
lol Jrue, Thad, Hawes, ET would be such a good sqaud! get real. They had such a good season together without Bynum, oh wait.

Never said he had to build a team around them, all I'm saying is he had assets to play with.

mngopher35
02-21-2016, 05:42 PM
Ya the idea isn't that they shoulda built around that core just filling pieces in. It's that there was a starting point that wasn't completely bare. Sure it might have taken an extra year/pick to catch up to teams who had a better start point but the 76ers took a completely different approach than others and essentially decided to try and suck. I think the strategy itself is worth the risk due to the nba system but you have to realize people don't expect professional teams to attempt failure for extended time. It's great 76ers fans like the strategy and I wouldn't be against it either as a fan but it isn't something the league or general fans want to see.

valade16
02-21-2016, 06:17 PM
lol Jrue, Thad, Hawes, ET would be such a good sqaud! get real. They had such a good season together without Bynum, oh wait.

Never said he had to build a team around them, all I'm saying is he had assets to play with.

Exactly. The original point was that Minny and Orlando are ahead in their rebuilds because they had talent to trade away to get assets. Well so did Philly.

Also, for the record, that Philly team won 34 games which is virtually as many as Philly won the next two seasons combined (37).

Alayla
02-21-2016, 06:28 PM
Holiday had a lot of value at that point. Hinkie fleeced them mainly because he didn't provide the pelicans with the proper information regarding Jrue's health. Otherwise it would've been Noel and a late pick for a healthy Jrue Holiday, which would've looked much much better for the pelicans.

Its sixers fans who act like Hinkie was left with trash, and he had no choice but to tank in that manner because apparently that's the only way to build a championship team.

Again tell me outside of Holiday and mabye Thad one person on that team are playing as even average starter level in the NBA?
What the **** are guys like Hawes and Turner accomplishing in the NBA?
Don't get me started on Lou and Nick young!
Is Arenett Moultre even still IN the NBA?
These are all questions you need to ask when you look at what Hinkie did.

Hell one of the reasons Holiday put up such nice counting stats is even the year before Hinkie showed up the roster was so devoid of any talent whatsoever Holiday effectively played 1 on 5. It got to the point where he was doubled nightly because other teams KNEW no one else was going to hurt them.
You can't keep deflecting those questions and maintain validity in your argument what oh so special players did the Sixers have to build with?

Also you guys cant sit here and say oh Hinkie gave up Holiday they would be so good if they still had him etc but in the same breath mention his injuries in relation to the trade value received for him

Tell me right now what line up you would be happier trotting out for the next 10 years?
Ish Thompson Covington Okafor Noel 6th Saric or Holiday Meeks Turner Thad Hawes 6th Lou
Even without our pick this year or the Lakers pick and even assuming Embiid can't play.
We are already in a better situation on paper than we where then that's how sad that roster was.
Had it not been for Holiday playing out of his mind in the first half of that season that team would struggle to win 20 games.

valade16
02-21-2016, 06:55 PM
^ Nobody is saying Philly would be good if they'd kept Holiday or even that they should have.

You're completely missing the point.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-21-2016, 07:18 PM
Knicks should trade Kristaps for Okafor if they were smart.

Aust
02-21-2016, 07:51 PM
Knicks should trade Kristaps for Okafor if they were smart.

Why?

5ass
02-21-2016, 08:12 PM
^ Nobody is saying Philly would be good if they'd kept Holiday or even that they should have.

You're completely missing the point.

Completely.

sixer04fan
02-21-2016, 10:14 PM
Jrue Holiday or not. I'm pretty sure our rebuild would be going a lot faster too if we had a Dwight Howard or Kevin Love to trade for assets to kickstart the process. All other factors aside, such as luck in the lotteries. If you doubt that, whatever. That's pretty objectively obvious to me.

I think Minnesota and Orlando are very good, young teams that could be very dangerous in the future. That's great. But they haven't won titles yet. No one here can argue with any degree of certainty that they will before Philly. So who's to say right now whose rebuild is right or wrong, better or worse, just because one way bothers you more as a fan.

How many other teams in the entire league, since we started this process, haven't won a championship? Of those teams, how many are no closer to winning now than they were 3 years ago? How many teams are further away now than they were 3 years ago? Seems like a lot of teams' processes haven't gone according to plan in the last 3 years. And I bet 3 years ago most of those front offices would have tried to sell their fan base on being in position to win titles by now.

But Philly is the only team that gets ridiculed, which I get. We're just not concerned about counting wins and losses right now. That bothers fans around the league. We are however very concerned about building a championship team long term by stockpiling high draft picks, future draft picks, and certain young players with very high ceilings. We're doing it differently and Sixers fans understand that. Given the era of mediocrity we've had to suffer through for so long, we're willing to suck for a while for the chance of being great. It hasn't worked or failed yet, we're not even close to the finish line.

PhillyFaninLA
02-22-2016, 07:13 AM
delete - why stoop to someones level

warfelg
02-22-2016, 09:52 AM
^ Nobody is saying Philly would be good if they'd kept Holiday or even that they should have.

You're completely missing the point.

Leave it to most Sixers fans to have things go right over their heads right now (yes I know I'm one).

I think the thing with the Jrue trade is we haven't seen the full benefits of it yet. I mean what if Jrue stays what he is, a one time injury replacement all star who's just pretty good, but on the flip side Noel is the next Rodman (on court) and Saric turns into the next Pippen? That's the hard part about this Holiday trade yet, is yea we're three years(ish) out from it, but we still don't know the outcome.

Personally, I know the Jrue trade kicked things odd, but I would have rather kept Jrue and dumped everyone else. Who knows, maybe Jrue explodes even more statistically and we can sell even higher? Or he crashes and burns, which would get us mocked anyways for not selling high.

What's frustrating me the most right now, is how almost laughably bad we have been with Okafor on the court yet he's the solution. The fact that this is the first trade talks with Okafor mentioned blows my mind.

Personally on draft night when we picked him, I was certain by the 20th pick that he would have been flipped to NYK for Porzingas and a future protected pick. Turned out I was wrong there.

But one thing still gets to me a few days later:
Some (most) Sixers fans will say that it's just due diligence. But, Okafor is the only name to get out there as teams being that interested. Sure teams were interested in Noel, but I heard that we basically wouldn't talk to anyone about him. But you didn't hear about "gauging value in Noel/Stauskas/Covington/ect". It was all based on Okafor. Which one hand makes sense because he's the player that can bring back the most. On the other hand he also makes the most sense because he's the one that hasn't been fitting in.

Tony_Starks
02-22-2016, 10:43 AM
Who's bashing?

Am asking a simple question that no Philly fan seems to know the answer to.

What will be the reward of all this?

Really simple, straight forward question.

you've been one of the biggest sixer bashers on this site. i didn't even know you were a laker fan until recently, so that makes it all the more ridiculous.

we're in the same boat buddy.

you want that number one pick just as bad as we do.

the lakeshow made moves in hopes of keeping some semblance of competitiveness (signing lou will, bass, and hibbert) but in the end they were just a waste of money. Is that really any better than going with an all youth movement and developing some of them into NBA talent?

If you're gonna tank, go all in. The Sixer's might have a roster of D-leaguers but some of them have turned into solid roleplayers (Covington, TJ Mcconnell, Richaun Holmes, and Jerami Grant).

It's good to have vet leadership, but overpaying them in hopes of staying mediocre is a lateral move at best.

I mean, if i were a laker fan, I wouldn't have wanted to sign Lou will, Bass, and Hibbert.

Instead i would rather take a flier on some d-league talent while allocating the minutes that went to those bust signings and giving those to Russell, Randle, Clarkson, and Nance JR instead.

Give those guys as many opportunities to develop as possible. Kobe is enough veteran leadership for one team. As much as people like to bash him you aren't going to find another nba vet with as much pedigree and experience as him and from what i've heard he's doing a great job at mentoring DLo.


The topic is Philly sir. I topic I did not start but am merely contributing to. Please stay with the topic at hand, you may show disdain for the Lakers in Laker topics.

*edit* But since you bring them up if you were to ask me "what are YOU guys doing?"....which is a fair question btw and not a "attack"..... I would respond: We are completely screwing up sir. Our management is incompetent, hopefully that will change. In the meantime I like our young talent going forward with Kobe coming off the books.


So........

you don't know what the reward will be? Because clearly you have no answer to provide about what is the end game of your strategy.

Ok, cool.

Tony_Starks
02-22-2016, 10:56 AM
So we can throw another year or two in the garbage can before the obvious is accepted? Cool.

As a fan why would I want to purchase a ticket to see this mockery for another two years in the meantime though?

Also if by some miracle things went exactly how management "planned" in two years what would be the payoff? A team that is now a yearly contender right? That is the whole end goal of this "be really bad until you're really good" concept right?

where is your outrage for the Wolves and Magic? They have both been worse longer and have had better picks

people attacking Philly are laughable


Where is the "outrage?"

Where is the "attack?"

People are really really sensitive.

If you see a team going out of their way to intentionally be the least competitive as humanly possible and you say "hey intentionally horrible team, what do you ultimately hope to gain by throwing seasons?" is that not a fair question? Because if the ultimate goal is supposed to be a championship, that aint happenin. If the ultimate goal is just to have assets and be "competitive" it doesn't take years of throwing games to accomplish that. So seriously, what the hell are they doing?

The Wolves have been mismanaged for years, they have taken MORE than their fair share of criticism.

Ask any Wolves fan about the endless David Kahn jokes we all had. Hell, some still have jokes about his colossal blunders...they are legendary.

And Orlando has proven to be fairly inept as well but they were set back by the whole Dwight debacle and have at least been making some positive strides and are generally respected.

But at the end of the day nobody is "outraged" about anything, when you publicly say we're going to be losers on purpose for years you invite questions and criticism as to that particular strategy.

It's not like this is limited to just me or psd, they are the running joke on espn, nba.tv, tnt, bleacher report......pretty much anybody associate with the nba.

valade16
02-22-2016, 11:04 AM
Jrue Holiday or not. I'm pretty sure our rebuild would be going a lot faster too if we had a Dwight Howard or Kevin Love to trade for assets to kickstart the process. All other factors aside, such as luck in the lotteries. If you doubt that, whatever. That's pretty objectively obvious to me.

I think Minnesota and Orlando are very good, young teams that could be very dangerous in the future. That's great. But they haven't won titles yet. No one here can argue with any degree of certainty that they will before Philly. So who's to say right now whose rebuild is right or wrong, better or worse, just because one way bothers you more as a fan.

How many other teams in the entire league, since we started this process, haven't won a championship? Of those teams, how many are no closer to winning now than they were 3 years ago? How many teams are further away now than they were 3 years ago? Seems like a lot of teams' processes haven't gone according to plan in the last 3 years. And I bet 3 years ago most of those front offices would have tried to sell their fan base on being in position to win titles by now.

But Philly is the only team that gets ridiculed, which I get. We're just not concerned about counting wins and losses right now. That bothers fans around the league. We are however very concerned about building a championship team long term by stockpiling high draft picks, future draft picks, and certain young players with very high ceilings. We're doing it differently and Sixers fans understand that. Given the era of mediocrity we've had to suffer through for so long, we're willing to suck for a while for the chance of being great. It hasn't worked or failed yet, we're not even close to the finish line.

First Bolded: Should it be objectively obvious though? You are using current context to evaluate the value of the players, but their values were very different at the time of the trade. Jrue was a hotter commodity then than he is now. Similarly, Dwight Howard was an impending FA who put Orlando through Dwightmare. Orlando didn't and wasn't going to get back fair market value for him, and Philly wouldn't have either.

Here is what each team got from their trades:

Philly - Traded Jrue Holiday for the 2013 6th pick used to take Nerlens Noel and a 2014 first rounder, used to select Elfrid Payton, who they traded for Dario Saric and a 2017 1st Round pick.

Orlando - Traded Dwight in a 4 team trade. They gave up Dwight, Earl Clark and Chris Duhon and received Aaron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Josh McRoberts, Nikola Vucevic, Maurice Harkless, Christian Eyenga, 2 1st Round Picks and a 2nd Round Pick. Those picks were used to select Aaron Gordon and Dario Saric who was traded along with a 1st Round Pick for Elfrid Payton.

Minnesota - Traded Kevin Love to Cleveland for Andrew Wiggins (the #1 overall pick) and Anthony Bennett.

In terms of current young productive players or future assets, each team got:

Philly got: Nerlens Noel, Dario Saric, 2017 First Round Pick

Magic got: Nikola Vucevic, Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton.

T-Wolves got: Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett

I don't think any of those assets would have made Philly's rebuild drastically faster.

Second Bolded: Judging by your comparison of championships, that is the ultimate end goal correct? Would you consider this whole endeavor a failure if they don't win a title? As you said, they aren't even close to finished yet. Well, this is year 3. Do you have a timetable of when you expect it to be completed? How many years of this before you say "enough"?

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 11:10 AM
The end game is to be competing for titles... Like REALLY competing. For me personally, that generally means at an OKC-type level or better. Consistently giving yourself real expectations for conference championships and finals appearances.

Shouldn't that be the end game of every team's plan?

What else are you looking for? A timeline? A method for measuring that progress? Honestly I'll give my input on all that, let me know if that's what you're looking for.

5ass
02-22-2016, 11:11 AM
Actually the magic got vuc, elfrid, fournier and could/should still have a first coming from the lakers. But also lets not forget dwight was coming off back surgery and becoming a UFA.

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 11:15 AM
Sorry valade didn't see your post, I was responding to starks

Tony_Starks
02-22-2016, 11:19 AM
The end game is to be competing for titles... Like REALLY competing. For me personally, that generally means at an OKC-type level or better. Consistently giving yourself real expectations for conference championships and finals appearances.

Shouldn't that be the end game of every team's plan?

What else are you looking for? A timeline? A method for measuring that progress? Honestly I'll give my input on all that, let me know if that's what you're looking for.

A timeline would be good.

Or even asking what player is either already there or coming that will be the superstar that leads to this goal?

Like OKC and the Warriors stayed in the cellar a couple years but they A) had up and coming Superstars that you could see building around, along with gathering a core around them to grow with and B) got incrementally better and more competitive each year in the process.

It seems like you guys, as a group not you per se, seem to think that things are going to go from being a complete shambles to a regular conference contender in a huge leap.

valade16
02-22-2016, 11:48 AM
The end game is to be competing for titles... Like REALLY competing. For me personally, that generally means at an OKC-type level or better. Consistently giving yourself real expectations for conference championships and finals appearances.

Shouldn't that be the end game of every team's plan?

What else are you looking for? A timeline? A method for measuring that progress? Honestly I'll give my input on all that, let me know if that's what you're looking for.

That's fair. I don't think it's fair for the expectation to be win titles, but to compete for them at the highest levels. I wouldn't say this strategy was a failure if they competed for multiple titles, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was a success if they don't win one. Does that make sense?

I'm am fascinated by how patient Philly fans are willing to be regarding this process. I'm not trying to pigeon-hole you into an answer like 5 years and then when you guys are competing in year 6 say "aha! But you said 5 years, you should be disappointed!". I guess an estimate of how long you're willing to stick this project out and what sort of success would make you believe the system is on the right track?

warfelg
02-22-2016, 12:09 PM
That's fair. I don't think it's fair for the expectation to be win titles, but to compete for them at the highest levels. I wouldn't say this strategy was a failure if they competed for multiple titles, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was a success if they don't win one. Does that make sense?

I'm am fascinated by how patient Philly fans are willing to be regarding this process. I'm not trying to pigeon-hole you into an answer like 5 years and then when you guys are competing in year 6 say "aha! But you said 5 years, you should be disappointed!". I guess an estimate of how long you're willing to stick this project out and what sort of success would make you believe the system is on the right track?

TBH my patience with this is getting thinner by the day. If we pick in the top 10 next year, I'm likely to be calling for Hinkie's head.

I didn't mind that ripping it apart idea, or the suck to be good, or even the not wasting a money on a FA.

But this has hit absurd lows.

We've got agents refusing to let prospects to meet with us. GM's who don't like working with us. Agents who will do anything to not let a prospect come to us. I'm not of the belief that Colangelo was Harris's idea. I still say Silver made them do it because of how bad Hinkie's relationship with the league was/is.

I still love this team and all, but this has got to start turning around. No Okafor is not the start of it obviously because we've sunk to further lows with him on it.

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 12:33 PM
So, first of all, yes. If you have a superstar in his prime years that you're trading away when there's a demand for him, it's objectively obvious to me that the value you should be getting back is going to massively kickstart any rebuild. More so than if you're trading away Jrue and Thad as your most valuable pieces. I'm not going down that road to debate that. Believe what you want to believe lol. I don't care.

As for expectations/success/failure: The ultimate goal is to win a championship or multiple championships, of course. But for me, the end game is to get to an OKC-type level. It still takes a good amount of fortune to actually win a championship. But as long as you're putting yourself in real conversation for it consistently, that's all any fan can really ask for. If we get to an OKC level, and never win, I absolutely wouldn't say the plan was a failure. It would suck, but the plan obviously worked in my eyes if we ever reached that point.

This is where I think the ridicule starts to become unfair and hypocritical. Because this should be every team's goal. So in the last 3 years, for any team that hasn't made strides or shown progress towards getting to that level, is their plan a failure too? If they can't measurably achieve that 2-3 years from now, should their GMs be fired?

As for players to build around to achieve that: I really believe Embiid is that type of prospect. But it's 50/50 to me that he'll ever make that type of impact. I also look at Ben Simmons as that level of prospect, and probably Ingram too. I would LOVE to get a top 2 pick. And I would trade Okafor to get one of them. Okafor himself is close to that level, but it's fair to question his overall ceiling because of his defensive liabilities. Noel also looks like a great piece, but I don't see him as more than a 3rd best player in a "big three" so to speak.

Beyond those guys, this is why we have cap space, and draft picks, and future picks up the ***. To cash in on a guy when/if someone of that caliber becomes available. At least that's an option for us. If we were in the position we are in now 2,3,4 years ago, I have no doubt we would have been big players in the Dwight, Love, or Harden sweepstakes.

As for a timeline: I hope this offseason is where you start to see strides. If we can land a top 2 pick, we get Saric next season, Embiid is expected to be coming back, and we have the most cap space in the league for the foreseeable future. This could turn for the positive at any point, or we could keep all the young guys together, grow the team, and make marginal improvements each year. If we don't get a top 2 pick, and the Lakers pick doesn't convey. That really sucks, we'll have to re-evaluate and consider different options for how to acquire a true star player. I guess my hope is playoffs in 2 years, and making the next step to contention 2 years after that. So... 4 years?

But precise timelines for reaching our ultimate goal, and deciding if the plan is a failure or a success based on that is kind of dumb to me. If it takes an extra year, fine. If we cash in all our chips earlier for a veteran star or two and go that route, fine. As long as the end game is that we can have a chance at winning championships, that's fine with me. And as long as we're not limiting our team's ceiling by handcuffing ourselves long term to players that aren't good enough. And for right now, I'm not counting wins and losses in the early phase of a rebuild in the mean time.

You can ask any team if they have exact objectives and timelines to tell if their plan is a success or a failure. Guess what? The overwhelming majority of teams in the NBA are not going to ever get close to reaching those objectives, especially within a concise time frame that they believe to be true today. "But at least they're winning games and are competitive and don't have D-leaguers and blah blah blah." Yeah, at least, and their plan was still a failure.

valade16
02-22-2016, 12:38 PM
So, first of all, yes. If you have a superstar in his prime years that you're trading away when there's a demand for him, it's objectively obvious to me that the value you should be getting back is going to massively kickstart any rebuild. More so than if you're trading away Jrue and Thad as your most valuable pieces. I'm not going down that road to debate that. Believe what you want to believe lol. I don't care.

I showed you the actual results of the trades each player got back. I believe what I want to believe because I'm looking objectively at the evidence.

Would your rebuild be vastly different at this point if you had Wiggins and Anthony Bennett or Vucevic, Gordon and Payton instead of Noel, Saric and a future first?

As to the rest, fair enough. I admire the resolve and I'm interested to see if you continue to be patient. As I've said, I'm fascinated by the whole situation, I'm just glad it's not my team doing it.

valade16
02-22-2016, 12:42 PM
TBH my patience with this is getting thinner by the day. If we pick in the top 10 next year, I'm likely to be calling for Hinkie's head.

I didn't mind that ripping it apart idea, or the suck to be good, or even the not wasting a money on a FA.

But this has hit absurd lows.

We've got agents refusing to let prospects to meet with us. GM's who don't like working with us. Agents who will do anything to not let a prospect come to us. I'm not of the belief that Colangelo was Harris's idea. I still say Silver made them do it because of how bad Hinkie's relationship with the league was/is.

I still love this team and all, but this has got to start turning around. No Okafor is not the start of it obviously because we've sunk to further lows with him on it.

It will be interesting to see if the strategy starts to wear on more 76ers fan's patience if there is no drastic improvement.

You're right in that people may be discounting the personal side of the business. This strategy seems to have affected their personal cache with many other franchises/Agents/GMs/etc.

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 12:47 PM
I showed you the actual results of the trades each player got back. I believe what I want to believe because I'm looking objectively at the evidence.

Would your rebuild be vastly different at this point if you had Wiggins and Anthony Bennett or Vucevic, Gordon and Payton instead of Noel, Saric and a future first?

As to the rest, fair enough. I admire the resolve and I'm interested to see if you continue to be patient. As I've said, I'm fascinated by the whole situation, I'm just glad it's not my team doing it.

Well, if we had those packages instead of Noel (missed his entire first season), Saric (yet to play for us) and a future first (yet to play for us...). Yes, we'd certainly have won more games now. And we'd be getting ridiculed by opposing fans a lot less. Would we be better off? Debatable. But I know that in the eyes of outsiders, we'd be looking better.

As for patience... This is an online forum where people choose to spend their time to talk about their teams for fun. The ratio of people who passionately support the rebuild is obviously going to be very warped here. In real life, it's split 50/50 probably at best. If everyone was on board with what they're doing right now and had undying support for the team, they Sixers would be selling a lot more tickets. Know what I mean?

valade16
02-22-2016, 12:55 PM
Well, if we had those packages instead of Noel (missed his entire first season), Saric (yet to play for us) and a future first (yet to play for us...). Yes, we'd certainly have won more games now. And we'd be getting ridiculed by opposing fans a lot less. Would we be better off? Debatable. But I know that in the eyes of outsiders, we'd be looking better.

As for patience... This is an online forum where people choose to spend their time to talk about their teams for fun. The ratio of people who passionately support the rebuild is obviously going to be very warped here. In real life, it's split 50/50 probably at best. If everyone was on board with what they're doing right now and had undying support for the team, they Sixers would be selling a lot more tickets. Know what I mean?

I hadn't considered that. People believed in what Portland was doing and went to their games even when we weren't that good because of our support rather than when we were the Jail Blazers. So I can see how this could cause less people to go to the games.

Would you be disappointed or frustrated if the plan was continuing towards the ultimate end goal of competing for championships but the fan base's discontent and impatience caused Hinkie to be fired and the plan to be sort of scrapped or hit reset on before it could come to fruition? Would you view it as a possible wasted opportunity so to speak?

KnicksorBust
02-22-2016, 12:57 PM
what pattern of bad decisions? nothing has happened since the Boston incident. Also how isnt Okafors style effective? Bcuz 17ppg on 50% shooting sounds effective to me.

Yeah that is an impressive streak of 2 months without breaking the law. :)


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/02/jahlil-okafor-issues-boston-fight-driving/76685948/
Okafor who is in the news for the wrong reasons right now a videotaped altercation with fans in Boston, a citation for going 108 mph in a 40 mph zone and most recently on Wednesday, TMZ.com posted another video of an agitated Okafor fighting on a Boston street.

The Sixers on Wednesday suspended Okafor for two games, and the team said in a statement that "Jahlil is a very important part of our organization and our future. While we are disappointed with his recent actions, we have faith in him as a valued member of the Sixers. We will provide the necessary resources to support him on his journey and will do our part to help him succeed both on and off the court."

The second Boston video is unflattering with Okafor bragging about money, charging people and throwing punches.

Also if you think you can dispute his effectiveness by just dropping his point total and fg% then you are missing the far bigger picture that he has been a negative on the court for the Sixers this year.

KnicksorBust
02-22-2016, 01:01 PM
So, first of all, yes. If you have a superstar in his prime years that you're trading away when there's a demand for him, it's objectively obvious to me that the value you should be getting back is going to massively kickstart any rebuild. More so than if you're trading away Jrue and Thad as your most valuable pieces. I'm not going down that road to debate that. Believe what you want to believe lol. I don't care.

As for expectations/success/failure: The ultimate goal is to win a championship or multiple championships, of course. But for me, the end game is to get to an OKC-type level. It still takes a good amount of fortune to actually win a championship. But as long as you're putting yourself in real conversation for it consistently, that's all any fan can really ask for. If we get to an OKC level, and never win, I absolutely wouldn't say the plan was a failure. It would suck, but the plan obviously worked in my eyes if we ever reached that point.

This is where I think the ridicule starts to become unfair and hypocritical. Because this should be every team's goal. So in the last 3 years, for any team that hasn't made strides or shown progress towards getting to that level, is their plan a failure too? If they can't measurably achieve that 2-3 years from now, should their GMs be fired?

As for players to build around to achieve that: I really believe Embiid is that type of prospect. But it's 50/50 to me that he'll ever make that type of impact. I also look at Ben Simmons as that level of prospect, and probably Ingram too. I would LOVE to get a top 2 pick. And I would trade Okafor to get one of them. Okafor himself is close to that level, but it's fair to question his overall ceiling because of his defensive liabilities. Noel also looks like a great piece, but I don't see him as more than a 3rd best player in a "big three" so to speak.

Beyond those guys, this is why we have cap space, and draft picks, and future picks up the ***. To cash in on a guy when/if someone of that caliber becomes available. At least that's an option for us. If we were in the position we are in now 2,3,4 years ago, I have no doubt we would have been big players in the Dwight, Love, or Harden sweepstakes.

As for a timeline: I hope this offseason is where you start to see strides. If we can land a top 2 pick, we get Saric next season, Embiid is expected to be coming back, and we have the most cap space in the league for the foreseeable future. This could turn for the positive at any point, or we could keep all the young guys together, grow the team, and make marginal improvements each year. If we don't get a top 2 pick, and the Lakers pick doesn't convey. That really sucks, we'll have to re-evaluate and consider different options for how to acquire a true star player. I guess my hope is playoffs in 2 years, and making the next step to contention 2 years after that. So... 4 years?

But precise timelines for reaching our ultimate goal, and deciding if the plan is a failure or a success based on that is kind of dumb to me. If it takes an extra year, fine. If we cash in all our chips earlier for a veteran star or two and go that route, fine. As long as the end game is that we can have a chance at winning championships, that's fine with me. And as long as we're not limiting our team's ceiling by handcuffing ourselves long term to players that aren't good enough. And for right now, I'm not counting wins and losses in the early phase of a rebuild in the mean time.

You can ask any team if they have exact objectives and timelines to tell if their plan is a success or a failure. Guess what? The overwhelming majority of teams in the NBA are not going to ever get close to reaching those objectives, especially within a concise time frame that they believe to be true today. "But at least they're winning games and are competitive and don't have D-leaguers and blah blah blah." Yeah, at least, and their plan was still a failure.

great post. I think people make things more complicated than they really are... The Sixers had 2 incredible opportunities to land a superstar player. They barely missed on Towns and haven't had the chance to see Embiid yet. Plus this year's pick. It's all about having as many chances as possible to land that franchise changing player and Hinkie is doing everything he can to increase his odds. It's smart and I think Philly is doing the right thing and have said so for a while.

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 01:23 PM
I hadn't considered that. People believed in what Portland was doing and went to their games even when we weren't that good because of our support rather than when we were the Jail Blazers. So I can see how this could cause less people to go to the games.

Would you be disappointed or frustrated if the plan was continuing towards the ultimate end goal of competing for championships but the fan base's discontent and impatience caused Hinkie to be fired and the plan to be sort of scrapped or hit reset on before it could come to fruition? Would you view it as a possible wasted opportunity so to speak?

Yes, and this is especially relevant with Colangelo recently coming on board, and rumors about Hinkie's role being diminished. I do hope Hinkie gets the chance to see his plan out. I think he's done a good job for accomplishing what his plan has been so far. The owners put their trust in him when they hired him. I don't want to abandon "the plan" for the sake of rushing the process because of impatience or because it's been harder than the owners thought it would be. I want it to be done right, especially since they're so deeply invested in it now.

I do think Hinkie can use help from Colangelo with relationships with agents, players, other GMs, etc. So I see the value in Colangelo lending a hand and being involved in the process. But if Hinkie lost his job or had his role diminished in terms of decision-making and player evaluation, I'd have a problem with that.

PhillyFaninLA
02-22-2016, 01:27 PM
I showed you the actual results of the trades each player got back. I believe what I want to believe because I'm looking objectively at the evidence.

Would your rebuild be vastly different at this point if you had Wiggins and Anthony Bennett or Vucevic, Gordon and Payton instead of Noel, Saric and a future first?

As to the rest, fair enough. I admire the resolve and I'm interested to see if you continue to be patient. As I've said, I'm fascinated by the whole situation, I'm just glad it's not my team doing it.

To me I wanted to see improvement and I have to a small degree..you can't look at wins...Ish and McConnel are nice back up point guards...Covington and Grant look like potentially elite bench players...we don't have a starting 5...this offseason and next year I want to see improvement...I think because the team has been honest with us, we are willing to be more patient and I'm not looking at record, I'm look at individual pieces and I would be happy if we have most of our bench for the next 10 years, and if Embiid, Noles, Okafor, and Saric can be 2 of our long term starting 5 if not 3 then I'm very happy....to me we need to go into next season without what looks like a true NBA starting 5, hopefully that consists of Simmons or Ingram and 1 or 2 more young starters.....I want to see steady improvement and a team slowly start to form, if that happens over the next few years we are in good shape.

warfelg
02-22-2016, 01:29 PM
I hadn't considered that. People believed in what Portland was doing and went to their games even when we weren't that good because of our support rather than when we were the Jail Blazers. So I can see how this could cause less people to go to the games.

Would you be disappointed or frustrated if the plan was continuing towards the ultimate end goal of competing for championships but the fan base's discontent and impatience caused Hinkie to be fired and the plan to be sort of scrapped or hit reset on before it could come to fruition? Would you view it as a possible wasted opportunity so to speak?

it depends on what way you are talking about scrapped.

If it's scrapped to trade away guys for picks again, yea pissed. If it's scrapped in trading guys and maybe overpaying for a stud, sign some guys to big contracts....I would need to see the results.

Now there are plenty of Sixers fans ehre that get very pissed at the mention of the second one, but you know...sometimes you just have to do that to get out of the ******* so to speak. I mean look at what LAC did to get out.

2-ONE-5
02-22-2016, 01:51 PM
^ Nobody is saying Philly would be good if they'd kept Holiday or even that they should have.

You're completely missing the point.

those players didnt hold value. Turner and Hawes were expiring deals and bums that held no value, Thad had a player option left and asked to be traded bcuz he was going to walk. Jrue held the most value and got the most return and we won that trade.

2-ONE-5
02-22-2016, 02:03 PM
^ Nobody is saying Philly would be good if they'd kept Holiday or even that they should have.

You're completely missing the point.

those players didnt hold value. Turner and Hawes were expiring deals and bums that held no value, Thad had a player option left and asked to be traded bcuz he was going to walk. Jrue held the most value and got the most return and we won that trade.

2-ONE-5
02-22-2016, 02:08 PM
Yeah that is an impressive streak of 2 months without breaking the law. :)


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/02/jahlil-okafor-issues-boston-fight-driving/76685948/
Okafor who is in the news for the wrong reasons right now a videotaped altercation with fans in Boston, a citation for going 108 mph in a 40 mph zone and most recently on Wednesday, TMZ.com posted another video of an agitated Okafor fighting on a Boston street.

The Sixers on Wednesday suspended Okafor for two games, and the team said in a statement that "Jahlil is a very important part of our organization and our future. While we are disappointed with his recent actions, we have faith in him as a valued member of the Sixers. We will provide the necessary resources to support him on his journey and will do our part to help him succeed both on and off the court."

The second Boston video is unflattering with Okafor bragging about money, charging people and throwing punches.

Also if you think you can dispute his effectiveness by just dropping his point total and fg% then you are missing the far bigger picture that he has been a negative on the court for the Sixers this year.

um his FG% is up and pts barely down despite playing a little less min. since Ish got here Okafor is 5th in the league in FG% and now at just a tad below 50%

sixer04fan
02-22-2016, 02:11 PM
great post. I think people make things more complicated than they really are... The Sixers had 2 incredible opportunities to land a superstar player. They barely missed on Towns and haven't had the chance to see Embiid yet. Plus this year's pick. It's all about having as many chances as possible to land that franchise changing player and Hinkie is doing everything he can to increase his odds. It's smart and I think Philly is doing the right thing and have said so for a while.

Between Minnesota, Orlando, the Lakers, the Knicks, and other teams with high picks in the last few seasons... Towns is the only player I'm REALLY jealous of. Everything about him screams superstar. Close to an Anthony Davis type of level. He already plays like a top 20-25 player in the league IMO and has an unlimited ceiling.

I like the other young players like Wiggins, Randle, Gordon, Parker, etc. All good young players with pretty high ceilings. I probably like Porzingis even more than those other guys. But KAT is on another level to me. He'd be the crowned jewel prize of tanking. Getting a player like that is why we're doing what we're doing.