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View Full Version : What's up with young PGs?



5ass
02-15-2016, 12:38 AM
I look around the league, and something is wrong with the PG prospects. Guys like Mudiay, Russell, Schroder, Payton find it very hard to be consistent... None of them is very effective (efficient) at the NBA level. Any other prospects (age 22 and under) I'm missing? Are they just taking more time to develop? Or is it just weak talent? Watching them play you can see their potential, but then you look at the stats and they're all underwhelming.

More-Than-Most
02-15-2016, 12:43 AM
Lots of factors... Its only been half a season for these guys... Steph didnt go godly until his 5th year in the league if I am mistaken... It also depends on the offense and team... Someone like Russ has all the potential in the world but is on a **** team with one of the dumbest coaches in basketball.

Look as westys first 2 years
Look at CP3 first 2 years

In the first season I expect PG to show some kind of promise though so I understand what you are saying... Russ has all the potential in the world but has looked lost in the NBA... I have not watched Mud at all so I cant say anything about him... Id expect both to be really good nba players though

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:43 AM
Is the competition they're going up against maybe the issue? The NBA is full of good veteran PGs.

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:51 AM
Lots of factors... Its only been half a season for these guys... Steph didnt go godly until his 5th year in the league if I am mistaken... It also depends on the offense and team... Someone like Russ has all the potential in the world but is on a **** team with one of the dumbest coaches in basketball.

Look as westys first 2 years
Look at CP3 first 2 years

In the first season I expect PG to show some kind of promise though so I understand what you are saying... Russ has all the potential in the world but has looked lost in the NBA... I have not watched Mud at all so I cant say anything about him... Id expect both to be really good nba players though

But they're all so inefficient shooting the ball. Russell has struggled a little with that too. None of them is efficient.

Scoots
02-15-2016, 12:53 AM
Early on you are looking for flashes of greatness and general progress and development in their games. It takes time. Look at them after year 3. If they have not made significant progress then you can worry.

That said, young PGs who are not already good shooters better develop that skill quickly.

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:54 AM
Cp3 was a good rookie 17-8 with good efficiency, but Westbrook was bad.

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:56 AM
I just think guys like Rose, Wall, Irving, ect put up better rookie seasons, and I'm wondering why no PG in the last three drafts has done that.

Kyben36
02-15-2016, 01:04 AM
very few PGs work out well year one, Rose was one of the few exceptions, but its more because he was more a primary scorer than a distributor. When you look at PGs, they have to be NBA smart, and that takes time, to learn tendencies, ways of not turning over the ball, you guys just do that alot more than seasoned vets, it happens, over time, they calm down and let the game come to them. But yes, young guys often make alot of mistakes. which is why they struggle for minutes/extended playing time, and even turning the ball over has a negative affect on their own play, BTW, out of the 3 you listed, i think all will become quality starters, outside of Payton, who i think just lacks the ability to shoot too much to overcome on the nba level, maybe he will prove me wrong. but i think all 3 of the others surely pan out as starters.

5ass
02-15-2016, 01:08 AM
Early on you are looking for flashes of greatness and general progress and development in their games. It takes time. Look at them after year 3. If they have not made significant progress then you can worry.

That said, young PGs who are not already good shooters better develop that skill quickly.

Not necessarily I guess it depends what good shooter means. You have PGs that can be very successful without being good shooters, they're more like good enough shooters.. Westbrook, rose, wall

5ass
02-15-2016, 01:14 AM
very few PGs work out well year one, Rose was one of the few exceptions, but its more because he was more a primary scorer than a distributor. When you look at PGs, they have to be NBA smart, and that takes time, to learn tendencies, ways of not turning over the ball, you guys just do that alot more than seasoned vets, it happens, over time, they calm down and let the game come to them. But yes, young guys often make alot of mistakes. which is why they struggle for minutes/extended playing time, and even turning the ball over has a negative affect on their own play, BTW, out of the 3 you listed, i think all will become quality starters, outside of Payton, who i think just lacks the ability to shoot too much to overcome on the nba level, maybe he will prove me wrong. but i think all 3 of the others surely pan out as starters.

Payton has made twice as many 3s as last year already and shooting 36.4% from 3. Not a big sample size and not going to hold up for long, but he's shooting a high %, and FT% is up. He has improved, still isn't a good shooter, but it's encouraging IMO.

Also add Exum to the mix of young PGs. Forgot about him.

flea
02-15-2016, 01:31 AM
PG along with rim protecting C take the longest to develop. Always been that way. If you're really a SG who plays PG (like Westbrook or Rose) then you can probably put up stats but your team probably won't be any good. If you're a true PG like Kidd or Nash it can take longer to find your way - especially if your strengths are unclear.

PG is a demanding position offensively, only a few guys come out of college with the ability to play it well immediately. Paul was one I guess, but it's not like he or his team really lit it up even though there was talent on the roster. Most guys move along more like Conley or Teague than that.

As for the guys you mentioned, Schroeder has played well but he's a backup behind a legitimate NBA PG and the 2-PG look just doesn't work all that well for big minutes with those guys. Payton has looked good when I've watched, but I haven't watched lately. I think the Magic just have too many young players and too few minutes for them. They're probably deciding how to configure the roster going forward and I'd bet it's Payton who they see as the future. Plus a guy like him coming from a small school and having no real offensive gifts outside of athleticism, everyone know it would take a little bit. Russell and Mudiay are just young and I'm not sure anybody knows what their strengths are yet - IE if they can stick at PG. Both were known to be raw but promising, in spite of the post-Lakers draft hype over Russell.

5ass
02-15-2016, 01:38 AM
I guess my memory failed me, honestly forgot guys like Westbrook, Conley, Teague took a little while to develop. You also have Lowry who couldn't shoot coming in.

As for Schroder, he has the advantage of playing against second units and is getting good 3 pt looks on that hawks team, he's just not a very good shooter this season. I mean his biggest strength is his penetration and he shoots a terrible 47% at the rim. Honestly, I don't think he'd be a good starter this season. Definitely not better than Teague. Not sure why Atlanta is thinking of trading Teague. I think he fits better in their age group. Unless you think Schroder is going to be much better than Teague..

Teeboy1487
02-15-2016, 02:42 AM
I can only speak for Russell. I think he is pretty damn good and this is coming from someone who preferred Okafor and still do. Russell is forced to run a ****** offense for a one of the worst coaches in nba history. I think he just needs some freedom. We have seen glimpses of what he can become. However, I do think he is very raw which you can expect from a rookie. He is still trying to find his way but it will take him longer than most because of the difficult coach he has to deal will and the lack of athleticism. Byron does not allow Russell to make mistakes and learn from them. He takes away his confidence and aggressiveness. One thing the great Phil Jackson always stressed when dealing with a young Kobe was not taking his aggressiveness away. I have seen Byron completely take that away from Russell. The kid is really confused and the Lakers could not have picked a worst coach for him. I'm kind of surprised because I though Byron gave Clarkson the green light last year. From the Kobe Farewell Tour and the lack of offensive system, very tough circumstances for the kid. I will give him 3 years before truly judging him.

JAZZNC
02-15-2016, 02:44 AM
Most PGs take time and it's not a recent thing. Just using the Jazz as an example Stockton took a couple years, as did Deron Williams. Even No Williams left after his rookie contract and ended up having a nice career. Nash took quite a bit. Curry took a while. Nobody comes into the NBA and just sets it on fire given the youth getting drafted these days. And that applies to all positions.

Teeboy1487
02-15-2016, 02:49 AM
As for Payton, I watched him a bit at Tech. He really needs to be more aggressive. He has all the tools to be a top tier pg. He needs to improve his mentality.

5ass
02-15-2016, 02:57 AM
I can only speak for Russell. I think he is pretty damn good and this is coming from someone who preferred Okafor and still do. Russell is forced to run a ****** offense for a one of the worst coaches in nba history. I think he just needs some freedom. We have seen glimpses of what he can become. However, I do think he is very raw which you can expect from a rookie. He is still trying to find his way but it will take him longer than most because of the difficult coach he has to deal will and the lack of athleticism. Byron does not allow Russell to make mistakes and learn from them. He takes away his confidence and aggressiveness. One thing the great Phil Jackson always stressed when dealing with a young Kobe was not taking his aggressiveness away. I have seen Byron completely take that away from Russell. The kid is really confused and the Lakers could not have picked a worst coach for him. I'm kind of surprised because I though Byron gave Clarkson the green light last year. From the Kobe Farewell Tour and the lack of offensive system, very tough circumstances for the kid. I will give him 3 years before truly judging him.

Sure he's good for a rookie and a very nice prospect, but he's not close to being a good NBA player right now. I agree he's being held back though. Still, I think Byron isn't as dumb as you think. I think he limits him because of his limitations at this point. At the end of the day he's trying to win games.

5ass
02-15-2016, 03:02 AM
Most PGs take time and it's not a recent thing. Just using the Jazz as an example Stockton took a couple years, as did Deron Williams. Even No Williams left after his rookie contract and ended up having a nice career. Nash took quite a bit. Curry took a while. Nobody comes into the NBA and just sets it on fire given the youth getting drafted these days. And that applies to all positions.

The thing is before that last three year stretch we were getting a great rookie PG every year.

2012 Damian lillard
2011 Irving
2010 wall
2009 curry/tyreke
2008 rose

5ass
02-15-2016, 03:06 AM
As for Payton, I watched him a bit at Tech. He really needs to be more aggressive. He has all the tools to be a top tier pg. He needs to improve his mentality.

Agreed. He's like Westbrook in that he plays even when he's hurt, and didn't miss a game through high school college. Payton played 82 games his rookie year. So that surely affects his aggressiveness sometimes. He was struggling last month, and Skiles and Hennigan said he was playing through an injury. But I agree he loses his confidence sometimes. He does need to improve his mentality, because when elfrid brings it he's some games our best player.

JAZZNC
02-15-2016, 04:29 AM
The thing is before that last three year stretch we were getting a great rookie PG every year.

2012 Damian lillard
2011 Irving
2010 wall
2009 curry/tyreke
2008 rose
They were better raw stats wise than the last three years but those guys weren't winning you games right off the bat. They all needed time. I feel like you may be over valuing them based on what they are now. They also were simply better prospects coming into the NBA. That's probably the biggest thing, you're comparing guys drafted #1 overall to players drafted later or in cases in much weaker drafts (Exum). That coupled with a some players being talked about that are rookies it's just too early to tell what the recent PGs are.

And Tyreke doesn't belong in the convo. He regressed after his rookie year. His rookie year might as well not matter in the big picture.

Kyben36
02-15-2016, 04:49 AM
Payton has made twice as many 3s as last year already and shooting 36.4% from 3. Not a big sample size and not going to hold up for long, but he's shooting a high %, and FT% is up. He has improved, still isn't a good shooter, but it's encouraging IMO.

Also add Exum to the mix of young PGs. Forgot about him.

Exum is a huge question mark, first, im not 100% sure he is a PG, but second, he is not really getting much time, even though Utahs PG state is shaky at best, as far as your Payton Saying, Sure, he might be shooting more, But when i watch him, he is like Rondo in that he just looks at the basket and refuse to even take open shots. which as an nba player, you cant be out on the floor and not take those as a guard, rondo is one of the few exceptions but guys cant play out on the wing and not shoot the ball,

5ass
02-15-2016, 05:06 AM
They were better raw stats wise than the last three years but those guys weren't winning you games right off the bat. They all needed time. I feel like you may be over valuing them based on what they are now. They also were simply better prospects coming into the NBA. That's probably the biggest thing, you're comparing guys drafted #1 overall to players drafted later or in cases in much weaker drafts (Exum). That coupled with a some players being talked about that are rookies it's just too early to tell what the recent PGs are.

And Tyreke doesn't belong in the convo. He regressed after his rookie year. His rookie year might as well not matter in the big picture.

Yeah threke doesn't belong, but he put up a great rookie season, and won ROY I had to give him some credit. I don't think I'm overvaluing them. Look at their stats and the new PGs' stats. There's a significant difference. I think we got a lot of great PGs in those drafts and the era for PGs is much better right now in the NBA. Looking at the other thread asking who didn't deserve their all star appearance I see jameer nelson and mo Williams and I remember that the PG position was pretty weak... but like you said its probably also that the new PGs are less talented than that bunch.

5ass
02-15-2016, 05:11 AM
Exum is a huge question mark, first, im not 100% sure he is a PG, but second, he is not really getting much time, even though Utahs PG state is shaky at best, as far as your Payton Saying, Sure, he might be shooting more, But when i watch him, he is like Rondo in that he just looks at the basket and refuse to even take open shots. which as an nba player, you cant be out on the floor and not take those as a guard, rondo is one of the few exceptions but guys cant play out on the wing and not shoot the ball,

Exum is out for the season. I don't love him as a prospect, but he has some good tools. I do think he can and will be able to play PG.

Payton is a better shooter than Rondo though, and Skiles is encouraging him to take those open shots sometimes. So he's not as passive as Rondo when it comes to shooting. I'm just saying doubling your three pt makes from last year in only 47 games this year, and shooting 36.4% is impressive progress for one off season. I have confidence that the team will help him develop it like they did with vucevic, Gordon, oladipo, Nicholson, Harris ect. Not sure how good he can become though.

tp13baby
02-15-2016, 08:47 AM
I can speak for Mudiay. Coming into the league he was very well known to not be a very good shooter. Teams do a good job guarding him. Let him shoot. Also add in the fact he just tries to do so much. But he has gotten better as the year has gone on. To me you can't just have great athleticism because most teams point guards are their most athletic players. Its just the best position in the NBA, especially in the west.

JasonJohnHorn
02-15-2016, 11:41 AM
There is nothing wrong with the point guard position right now. Some of the young guys aren't that great, but that happens. There might be a few years where some great point guards come in, and then a couple of seasons where the rookie crop is a little weak.


I think part of the issue is that most of these guys are coming out after one year in college. The point guard position traditionally requires the highest basketball IQ on the floor. There are most skills to learn. Ball handling, passing, court vision, learning/reading teammates, breaking down defenders, using picks, shooting, pull up jumpers.

You take the shooting guard position, some guys only need to be able to come off a screen and catch and shoot on offense. you can learn how to do that in high school. Defense takes a little more, yes, but catch and shoot can be a SG's stock and trade and they can do that and have a long career.


Because of the depth of skills point guards have to have, they need more time to learn. Guys who stay in college for 4 years (Lillard), even if they don't have the skill level of some other point guards, transition better to the NBA because they spend 4 years honing their skills.

When you get guys like Teflair, Jennings, Flynn.... guys that come out early, they don't have the nuanced game they require to keep up with veteran point guards, so the learning curve takes longer. It's why so many point guards don't last more than a season or two.

Most young point guards are coming out after a year in college, and unless you are a franchise player (and there are likely only 4 or 5 point guards in the league that warrant that label), then you will struggle if you haven't developed that skill set.


I mean, look at Curry. He's the best player in the league right now and it took him 4 years to break 6 assists a game with something better than a 2/1 ast/trn ratio, and it wasn't until his 5th season that he was able to hand out 8+ assists a game. 20 years ago, that would have been his sophomore season.


So we are seeing the development of unrefined talent in young point guards, but that has been the case for 15 years or so now, we've just been lucky because we've been spoiled with guys like Chris Paul and Derron Williams (who was an exceptional point guard his first few seasons in the league).

Wait until they are 24 and then see where they are are.

PAOboston
02-15-2016, 12:03 PM
I can only speak for Russell. I think he is pretty damn good and this is coming from someone who preferred Okafor and still do. Russell is forced to run a ****** offense for a one of the worst coaches in nba history. I think he just needs some freedom. We have seen glimpses of what he can become. However, I do think he is very raw which you can expect from a rookie. He is still trying to find his way but it will take him longer than most because of the difficult coach he has to deal will and the lack of athleticism. Byron does not allow Russell to make mistakes and learn from them. He takes away his confidence and aggressiveness. One thing the great Phil Jackson always stressed when dealing with a young Kobe was not taking his aggressiveness away. I have seen Byron completely take that away from Russell. The kid is really confused and the Lakers could not have picked a worst coach for him. I'm kind of surprised because I though Byron gave Clarkson the green light last year. From the Kobe Farewell Tour and the lack of offensive system, very tough circumstances for the kid. I will give him 3 years before truly judging him.

Sure he's good for a rookie and a very nice prospect, but he's not close to being a good NBA player right now. I agree he's being held back though. Still, I think Byron isn't as dumb as you think. I think he limits him because of his limitations at this point. At the end of the day he's trying to win games.
Well, Russell is like 19 years old. He's not supposed to be a good NBA player right now. He's got the potential to be but there are a lot of factors in play including physical maturation, mental maturation, etc. I get to see Marcus Smart every other night and it is the same thing. He's got tools. It's just a process to get them to where they can/should be. It just takes a few years.

2-ONE-5
02-15-2016, 12:08 PM
I look around the league, and something is wrong with the PG prospects. Guys like Mudiay, Russell, Schroder, Payton find it very hard to be consistent... None of them is very effective (efficient) at the NBA level. Any other prospects (age 22 and under) I'm missing? Are they just taking more time to develop? Or is it just weak talent? Watching them play you can see their potential, but then you look at the stats and they're all underwhelming.

not trolling but you were really high on Payton very recently trying to tell me hes great at this and that. What changed?

Theyre all young, inconsistency and growing pains are just normal.

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:15 PM
not trolling but you were really high on Payton very recently trying to tell me hes great at this and that. What changed?

Theyre all young, inconsistency and growing pains are just normal.

Nothing. He is still a great defender when engaged, and a great passer/IQ especially for a rookie. I never said he was great overall. Payton is on the right track. Compared to those other prospects, Payton arguably had the best rookie year. I'm still really high on him. The only thing is his defenses dropped off a bit last month, but as I said Skiles and Hennigan said he was playing through injury. Plus the whole team's defensive energy wasn't there.

5ass
02-15-2016, 12:20 PM
Well, Russell is like 19 years old. He's not supposed to be a good NBA player right now. He's got the potential to be but there are a lot of factors in play including physical maturation, mental maturation, etc. I get to see Marcus Smart every other night and it is the same thing. He's got tools. It's just a process to get them to where they can/should be. It just takes a few years.
Irving was good at 19... I get they're not supposed to be good though.