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TDE
02-09-2016, 11:55 PM
What are your thoughts, too high? Just right?

4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem

TDE
02-09-2016, 11:59 PM
Shaq is a 4 time Champion, Duncan has 5. Bird has 3 Championships.

Why is Lebron more deserving?

Aust
02-10-2016, 12:00 AM
Too high atm. He'll get there in the end, just not yet.

ewing
02-10-2016, 12:03 AM
that's dumb

chi-townlove1
02-10-2016, 12:07 AM
He may be better than bird now. But not better than Duncan or Shaq

IKnowHoops
02-10-2016, 12:16 AM
Did it say where in the top five? Shaq to me is top five? Jordan/Shaq/Bron have been the most dominant players Ive seen since becoming a real fan of the NBA in 1990. I watched a lot of Jordan getting beat by the Pistons and a lot of Lakers vs Detroit in the finals, but when the Bulls won in 1990, basketball just exploded so hard and I swear Jordan winning instantly tripled NBA popularity at the time, especially among kids in my grade at the time, 7th grade. Thats when kids were getting robbed for Jordans and Starter jackets.

But getting back on topic...I think Lebron in the top five somewhere is one of the most legit rankings I've seen. I already got him at 1/2 depending on what I'm feeling that day. But I realize I put peak higher than most. I have really like ESPN's lists. I don't agree half of it, but I do agree with half of it. And the ones I agree with overall are more impactful to me personally then the ones that don't.

tredigs
02-10-2016, 12:30 AM
He's a 4X MVP and multiple Finals MVP who has the 2nd best (arguably best) advanced stats in NBA history. If he retired today, his case for top 5 All-Time and over all of those players is very legitimate. I'd have him ~7th or 8th, but it's debatable.

LA_Raiders
02-10-2016, 01:26 AM
Bspn

DR_1
02-10-2016, 01:37 AM
Way too high

Dade County
02-10-2016, 02:15 AM
Shaq is top 5

More-Than-Most
02-10-2016, 02:59 AM
Shaq is a 4 time Champion, Duncan has 5. Bird has 3 Championships.

Why is Lebron more deserving?

omfg championships jesus christ.

I wouldnt have him above Shaq or Timmy just yet.

Id have him 6 or 7... Id have Shaq/duncan/mj/mj def above him.

Id also have Shaq/Timmy/Lebron ahead of Bird/Russell

numba1CHANGsta
02-10-2016, 03:14 AM
Can you guys finally see how much ESPN has always been on LeBron's nutz? This is a giant slap to the face to all those 5-7 players below him (assuming LeBron is ranked 5th but knowing BSPN they will have him ranked higher than Wilt)

More-Than-Most
02-10-2016, 03:19 AM
Can you guys finally see how much ESPN has always been on LeBron's nutz? This is a giant slap to the face to all those 5-7 players below him (assuming LeBron is ranked 5th but knowing BSPN they will have him ranked higher than Wilt)

Its not really just James though... They overrated Bird here as well. Its only a few spots... Lebron 5 isnt outlandish by any means... 5-7 there are plenty of arguments.... had they put him top 3 then I could see your point... Top 5 is not something to scream about... with 2 years he will be top 5 anyhow.

prodigy
02-10-2016, 03:43 AM
Shaq is a 4 time Champion, Duncan has 5. Bird has 3 Championships.

Why is Lebron more deserving?


Well are we talking best talented players or who has more rings?

prodigy
02-10-2016, 03:50 AM
Lebron is a dominate force. Just a freak of nature 6'9 260 fast, strong. great stats. ability to cover guys 1-5 so on and so on. I'm not sure how he's not top 5.

numba1CHANGsta
02-10-2016, 03:57 AM
Its not really just James though... They overrated Bird here as well. Its only a few spots... Lebron 5 isnt outlandish by any means... 5-7 there are plenty of arguments.... had they put him top 3 then I could see your point... Top 5 is not something to scream about... with 2 years he will be top 5 anyhow.

Maybe, maybe not but no way is he top 5 RIGHT NOW. No one in their right mind would rank LeBron ahead of Shaq, Russell, Bird, Duncan, and Kobe right this moment of his career.

PhillyFaninLA
02-10-2016, 04:13 AM
Shaq is a 4 time Champion, Duncan has 5. Bird has 3 Championships.

Why is Lebron more deserving?

Because rings are a team accomplishment.....say the words that Tom Sanders (8 rings) is better then everyone you listed and almost every hall of famer of all time or admit that rings aren't a judge of this

you can't have it both ways...so admit it or admit rings are no gauge

PhillyFaninLA
02-10-2016, 04:16 AM
Maybe, maybe not but no way is he top 5 RIGHT NOW. No one in their right mind would rank LeBron ahead of Shaq, Russell, Bird, Duncan, and Kobe right this moment of his career.


Kobe is no better then 5th in franchise history....Kobe is behind Magic, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem so yeah he is behind everyone you listed

Kobe is a warrior and one of the great scorers of all time but he is no better than 5th best in franchise history

numba1CHANGsta
02-10-2016, 05:03 AM
Kobe is no better then 5th in franchise history....Kobe is behind Magic, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem so yeah he is behind everyone you listed

Kobe is a warrior and one of the great scorers of all time but he is no better than 5th best in franchise history

You're going off topic, I didn't say Kobe was ahead of those former Lakers, I said LeBron RIGHT NOW isn't ahead of any of those players.

JJ_JKidd
02-10-2016, 05:09 AM
What are your thoughts, too high? Just right?

6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem

BSPN d!ckridin on Lebron tryin to resuscitate his best player in the NBA career and calm the F down the Curry onslaught!

JJ_JKidd
02-10-2016, 05:10 AM
kobe is no better then 5th in franchise history....kobe is behind magic, shaq, wilt, and kareem so yeah he is behind everyone you listed

kobe is a warrior and one of the great scorers of all time but he is no better than 5th best in franchise history

hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

tredigs
02-10-2016, 05:18 AM
^Despite the narrative otherwise, it's definitely not a laughable comment AT ALL. Who are you laughing at, specifically? His only real case over all of them is longevity, to be honest. And the guy did not even mention Jerry West.

basch152
02-10-2016, 05:41 AM
I likely wouldn't even have kobe in my top 10, and if i did it would be just barely.

I don't even understand why people find that insulting.

Even being a top 25 player of all time takes being a very special all time great.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 05:56 AM
I think they're confusing this list with: let's put them together now and see who wins :laugh2:

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 05:59 AM
Kobe is no better then 5th in franchise history....Kobe is behind Magic, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem so yeah he is behind everyone you listed

Kobe is a warrior and one of the great scorers of all time but he is no better than 5th best in franchise history

Well, I wouldn't put Wilt so high as a Laker.
Shaq definitely had more impact during his time than Kobe, but again, Kobe stayed more and helped bring two more championships.
Baylor should be ranked high as well as Mikan, as these guys are the primary reason why we still enjoy (or hate) the Lakers franchise.

But 1) Magic, 2) Kareem 3) West and then a debate between Kobe and some other guys should be the consesus. Otherwise I'm expecting some people to name Derek Fisher in their top 10 for the Lakers franchise :D

MonroeFAN
02-10-2016, 06:41 AM
I don't know where I would put him, but it seems kind of ridiculous to put him ahead of players like Duncan, Shaq & Bird.

MonroeFAN
02-10-2016, 06:43 AM
BSPN d!ckridin on Lebron tryin to resuscitate his best player in the NBA career and calm the F down the Curry onslaught!


hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Mother f'n english m'fer

mngopher35
02-10-2016, 06:53 AM
As others have said, I wouldn't put him over Duncan/shaq (yet).

Teufelshunde4
02-10-2016, 07:07 AM
Shaq isn't a top 5 player in my book. Shaq had some dominate seasons, but he didn't maximize his talent. Got lazy and fat.. Shaq could have been more.
For those that wanna use titles as a measure. Shaq was frequently on a contending team but only won 4.

Jeffy25
02-10-2016, 07:43 AM
4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP, 5 straight Finals appearances and that hasn't happened in a long *** time, has won 50 games every year since his 3rd year in the league, one of only four players to have 26K points, 6K assists, 6K boards and early next season will be the only one with 27K points with 7K boards and 7K assists.

Yes, only 31. But has already played almost as many minutes as Jordan, played more than Bird, etc. Been good in the playoffs despite some people's assumptions.

I have him in tier 3 today (I like Hawkeye's idea of tiering the guys)

Tier 1 - Jordan
Tier 2 - Kareem and Wilt
Tier 3 - Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Oscar, Russell and Magic

LeBron could reach Tier 2 before it's over, and if he plays long enough like Kareem, could potentially reach Tier 1 as a compiler that just plays so many minutes (think 40K points with 10K boards and 10K assists).

As long as these 9 are in the top 9, I'm happy. I think Bird is over-rated, and I grew up his biggest fan (I was born in Indiana near where he is from actually). But just too short of a career, Magic did too, but Magic was really dominating.

FraziersKnicks
02-10-2016, 08:41 AM
Shouldn't be above Timmy or Shaq yet, but he definitely deserves being above Bird/Kobe/Russell.

Everyone acts like because LeBron is still playing he shouldn't be mentioned above certain players that have been retired for decades. If LeBron retired tomorrow he would have more minutes played than Bird/Magic. Why can't we compare resumés of player's with similar minutes played?

My top 10 would look something like this:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
6. Hakeem
7. LeBron
8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Kobe

I see LeBron surpassing Hakeem quite soon and I see him surpassing TD before the end of his career. To get top 5 now all he needs is counting stats. It's very likely he finishes his career top 3 in points and top 10 in assists (something which I don't think anyone else will ever come close to be honest).

In 3 seasons time he will be the only 30k, 8k, 8k player of all-time and no one else is coming close to that for a long time either.

He'll be a 15+ All-Star, 15+ All-NBA selection, 4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP with a top 3 peak and arguably have the most dominant advanced stats peak ever.

This is all pretty much a guarantee (barring injury of course).

The way he can approach the top 3 is with a ring or two more.

Having him top 5 RIGHT NOW is a bit of a stretch. Having him top 5 by the end of his career is pretty much guaranteed even if he never wins another chip. Even if he only wins 1 more ring, bringing that first championship to Cleveland with a Finals MVP will be enough to put him top 3.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 10:48 AM
INCONCEIVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!

If it wasn't a joke before it is a COMPLETE joke now.

Even a lot of the Lebron stans here wouldn't have the absurd audacity to put that guy top 5.

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 11:47 AM
LeBron clearly falls under the "can't rank current players with the old timers" debate.

I mean, if he were hit by a bus right now, he is a 4 time MVP, 2 Finals MVP's, tons of accolades, stats that are rivaled by 1-2 other guys ever, blah, blah, blah. So he has a case for top 5 already.

I think he will finish top 5 ever for sure. But like many, I kinda hold it against him that he is 30-31, and want him to wait his turn. But the fact is, he is a top 5 player ever.

Currently, I think Shaq/Duncan are over him in my rankings, but they won't be eventually.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 11:57 AM
I'm still having trouble seeing him as a top 20 guy...

FraziersKnicks
02-10-2016, 12:03 PM
I'm still having trouble seeing him as a top 20 guy...

You should get your eyes checked then...

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 12:10 PM
You should get your eyes checked then...

They're fine, checked them yesterday. Also checked them 2 weeks ago with a different doctor.

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 12:24 PM
You should get your eyes checked then...

he has 20 pages of bs in the SF thread, don't worry

KnicksorBust
02-10-2016, 12:35 PM
Shaq had one of the most impressive 3 year stretches in NBA History but at the end of the day...

Still only a 1x league mvp
Missed a ton of games throughout his career
Pulled late from games for free throws

Those are 3 yuuuge checks against him. Doesn't that bother anyone? There is no way I can put someone with those type of holes in their resume as a top 5 player.

KnicksorBust
02-10-2016, 12:38 PM
What are your thoughts, too high? Just right?

6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem

I have no problem with LeBron ahead of Hakeem, Shaq, and Bird. I think his regular and post-season success is superior to all 3 of them pretty clearly imo. Duncan's full career resume still has him beat though. I mean he has an extra what 8 elite seasons on him? That's significant. Plus Duncan has some killer playoff chops to compete with as well. Duncan really should be considered top 5 at this point. I have him #4 and feel very confident that is the right spot for him.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 12:38 PM
espn is abusing advanced stats for their ranking pleasure.



.....and I for one find it very disturbing.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 01:24 PM
Lolololol. If you agree with bron ahead of shaq, duncan, and Hakeem, wilt, Russell your a joke just like this ESPN list.

yungincome
02-10-2016, 01:31 PM
Comedy

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 01:37 PM
just came out that wilt is 5th hahahaha. please post if you agree with bron over wilt so I know to never take you serious again.

mngopher35
02-10-2016, 01:44 PM
espn is abusing advanced stats for their ranking pleasure.



.....and I for one find it very disturbing.

Their lists don't really follow this though IMO. What makes you think that's what they are doing on these (and explain players like shaq)?

valade16
02-10-2016, 01:45 PM
just came out that wilt is 5th hahahaha. please post if you agree with bron over wilt so I know to never take you serious again.

Well according to everyone here

Wilt 2 Titles, LeBron 2 Titles so they should be tied right?

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 01:52 PM
espn is abusing advanced stats for their ranking pleasure.



.....and I for one find it very disturbing.

Their lists don't really follow this though IMO. What makes you think that's what they are doing on these (and explain players like shaq)?


Strictly based off where they placed Lebron. The majority of even the most avid Lebron fans would probably say top 5 when he's finished but not yet.

Any argument that has him as top 5 currently would have to be advanced stat laden imo, and give less weight to things like finals performances and overall success....

mngopher35
02-10-2016, 01:52 PM
Shaq had one of the most impressive 3 year stretches in NBA History but at the end of the day...

Still only a 1x league mvp
Missed a ton of games throughout his career
Pulled late from games for free throws

Those are 3 yuuuge checks against him. Doesn't that bother anyone? There is no way I can put someone with those type of holes in their resume as a top 5 player.

Your first two points are somewhat related IMO. The reason shaq doesn't have more Mvps is that he missed some regular season games most likely. I do think 1 MVP is a bit low for a top player but considering it was due more to that than his dominance (clear cut best in league for a few years) it isn't as big of an issue. If it were due to him not reaching that level of dominance (aka just one of the top players not clear best some seasons) it would be different.

I get that missing time isn't optimal but he always made sure he was ready come playoff time which is most important (and we saw how those teams dropped off huge without him in rs too).

IKnowHoops
02-10-2016, 01:53 PM
I have no problem with LeBron ahead of Hakeem, Shaq, and Bird. I think his regular and post-season success is superior to all 3 of them pretty clearly imo. Duncan's full career resume still has him beat though. I mean he has an extra what 8 elite seasons on him? That's significant. Plus Duncan has some killer playoff chops to compete with as well. Duncan really should be considered top 5 at this point. I have him #4 and feel very confident that is the right spot for him.

Yet Bron has or is about to pass him in points, even though Duncan has 8 seasons on him. That tells you that Brons elite seasons have been more dominant, so forget counting 8 seasons. Bron is packing into 12 what it took Duncan to pack into 20. Lebron is more impressive with that feat alone.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 01:55 PM
Yet Bron has or is about to pass him in points, even though Duncan has 8 seasons on him. That tells you that Brons elite seasons have been more dominant, so forget counting 8 seasons. Bron is packing into 12 what it took Duncan to pack into 20. Lebron is more impressive with that feat alone.

I find it hard to believe someone self named "IKNOWHOOPS" actually believes LeBron is greater than Duncan.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-10-2016, 02:03 PM
Lebron should not be higher than Wilt.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 02:05 PM
Lebron should not be higher than Wilt.

some players hes above can be debated, like hakeem, bird. But over Duncan, wilt, Russell, shaq. please. ESPN really lost all credibility in this list by putting him over wilt.

mngopher35
02-10-2016, 02:20 PM
Strictly based off where they placed Lebron. The majority of even the most avid Lebron fans would probably say top 5 when he's finished but not yet.

Any argument that has him as top 5 currently would have to be advanced stat laden imo, and give less weight to things like finals performances and overall success....

Not really. All the top 7 have 3+ MVP's (Lebron has 4). They all have 2 FMVP (except Russell/Wilt but one would easily and the other probably would too if award was around). These are generally the top awards given to individuals each year and IMO the MVP's especially seem to be a big factor in their rankings. Then on top of matching or exceeding those two criteria he also would have the advanced stats as you mentioned. I was curious on this before with Malone over the other PF's and I am thinking MVP's actually weighed into their opinions through the list (not sure would have to examine closer to see if it carried throughout).

HandsOnTheWheel
02-10-2016, 02:30 PM
Lebron over Magic.

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 02:37 PM
Lebron over Magic.

Tony Starks is going to hate you

HandsOnTheWheel
02-10-2016, 02:41 PM
Tony Starks is going to hate you

Don't shoot the messenger.

kdspurman
02-10-2016, 02:49 PM
Yet Bron has or is about to pass him in points, even though Duncan has 8 seasons on him. That tells you that Brons elite seasons have been more dominant, so forget counting 8 seasons. Bron is packing into 12 what it took Duncan to pack into 20. Lebron is more impressive with that feat alone.

Cause he scored more, more quickly? That makes him more impressive?

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 02:54 PM
Why doesn't ESPN just go all the way with this and put there boyfriend bron 1st over Jordan.

Bostonjorge
02-10-2016, 02:59 PM
Losing finals record. Got swept in the finals,choke job in the finals and worst beat down in the history of the finals. His shooting efficiency against GS was worse than any one of Iverson seasons.

Played in the weakest conference every year since his rookie year, some are the worst of all time.

Losing recored against teams with 50 wins or more in the playoffs.

Domimated weak teams and then got dominated by strong teams. How many guys in the top 15 can you say this about?

YAALREADYKNO
02-10-2016, 03:04 PM
They actually ranked him top 3 lmao wouldn't be surprised if he was 2 behind only Jordan

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 03:04 PM
Tony Starks is going to hate you

Don't shoot the messenger.


Their list is so arbitrary and ridiculous it may very well have Magic #3, Kareem #2, and Lebron 1(b)

valade16
02-10-2016, 03:06 PM
Wow

Chronz
02-10-2016, 03:09 PM
Shaq had one of the most impressive 3 year stretches in NBA History but at the end of the day...

Still only a 1x league mvp
Missed a ton of games throughout his career
Pulled late from games for free throws

Those are 3 yuuuge checks against him. Doesn't that bother anyone? There is no way I can put someone with those type of holes in their resume as a top 5 player.

He had one of the most impressive _insert any #_ stretches in history . Missed games in part due to his physical play style but he was always ready come playoffs, certainly not unlike most other greats in that department. That lack of durability hurt his chances at MVPs but even when it shouldn't have, he faced different comp for that award so its not something you can really just look at blindly. Inferior players have had less impressive seasons than he upon winning an MVP or 2 (Nash/AI). I dont see why durability would trump actually being the better player when you're on the court so no, it doesn't really bother me. He paced himself better as he aged and come playoffs, having him would give my team a greater chance at winning than the guy who tried hard all year and maybe got my team a few more W's in the RS.

As for his FT's, if thats a "HUGE" mark against him then I could see why the lack of near irrelevant accolades (in this case) is so important for you, not only is that complaint overstated (it wasn't an uncommon occurrence for Phil to let Shaq "hit the big ones") its in the most minute of situations that its even costly. Its like blaming a horrendous 3pt shooter for being less of an option in a last possession game where you need a 3. Only with Shaq, it came with a 50/50 proposition of scoring that also allowed his team to rest and get back defensively. Hack a Shaq works best when the opposition is already ahead, people rarely talk about the times its helped the Lakers improve the lead. And lets not act like Shaq hasn't come up with clutch buckets or rebounds off of his superior shooters GW attempts. What matters are the results and the influence you have on the chess board. Shaq ***** on ur heroes, unless you honor circumstantial things like MVP's and "longevity". Gimme the best player over the best career, at least with this sort of ranking.

TDE
02-10-2016, 03:11 PM
Alright so most in here say that Lebron belongs in the top 5 because it's not about championships, it's about individual numbers. And yet he's ahead of a player who averaged monster numbers in Wilt? Shouldn't Wilt be ranked 1st place, ahead of Jordan.

Chronz
02-10-2016, 03:14 PM
I have no problem with LeBron ahead of Hakeem, Shaq, and Bird. I think his regular and post-season success is superior to all 3 of them pretty clearly imo. Duncan's full career resume still has him beat though. I mean he has an extra what 8 elite seasons on him? That's significant. Plus Duncan has some killer playoff chops to compete with as well. Duncan really should be considered top 5 at this point. I have him #4 and feel very confident that is the right spot for him.

Pretty clearly? In what capacity?

Duncan's longevity? His best days ended a LONG time ago. Like does last year count as an elite season for you? Does simply remaining impressive for your age qualify 8 extra elite seasons, cuz thats what it seems like.

Name the Prime and Peak Run for Shaq, Bron and Duncan.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 03:17 PM
By the way it is pretty impressive that the 9th and 12th best players ever were able to pull off the last 3peat dynasty on record, sweep one of the most competitive conferences in history, doing so while barely losing 1 game in the Finals in OT, and were so good that they could split and still win 3 titles combined without each other.

That's pretty good to be 9th and 12th on the list.

Also pretty amazing that the top 5 guy on the list has been apart of some of the worst shooting performances in Finals history, one of the worst 4th quarter chokes in Finals history,and on the wrong end of the most lopsided Finals debacle ever.....on three different teams, no less. AND has a record of 2-6 despite colluding with his peers.

Pure espn gold!

YAALREADYKNO
02-10-2016, 03:21 PM
Shaq should've been a league MVP more than once. A lot of people believe he should've won Steve Nash's 2nd one

still1ballin
02-10-2016, 03:21 PM
lolz

Chronz
02-10-2016, 03:24 PM
Alright so most in here say that Lebron belongs in the top 5 because it's not about championships, it's about individual numbers. And yet he's ahead of a player who averaged monster numbers in Wilt? Shouldn't Wilt be ranked 1st place, ahead of Jordan.

Raw stats aren't really important anymore, at least not when talking about "numbers". You have to look at his per possession rates/efficiency, not to mention we're all are really just trying to gauge a players influence on his team(mates) throughout a career. MJ has the GOAT stats and the story book career to go with it. Wilt is high on my team influence scale, I truly believe he eventually became the complete player but it was so short lived and largely a result of his situation IMO, he would have been better served in ANY other era rather than be the one who carried the league out of its infancy.

DanG
02-10-2016, 03:24 PM
Ranking Lebron #3 is way too early. The guy is 31 and we haven't even seen him age yet plus he is 2-4 in the finals. It's like the players can celebrate losing nowadays.

mavwar53
02-10-2016, 03:28 PM
OMG, ESPN doesn't think exactly like I do, damn y'all need to relax, LBJ 5-10 is arguable high or low but some people act so offended that the list isn't exactly the way they have its Linsanity.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 03:30 PM
Ranking Lebron #3 is way too early. The guy is 31 and we haven't even seen him age yet plus he is 2-4 in the finals. It's like the players can celebrate losing nowadays.

Draymond and curry are laughing out loud right now, waiting to sweep this overated clown in the finals. Team full strength. No excuses for the 3rd best player ever.

mngopher35
02-10-2016, 03:32 PM
Ranking Lebron #3 is way too early. The guy is 31 and we haven't even seen him age yet plus he is 2-4 in the finals. It's like the players can celebrate losing nowadays.

Or maybe it has something to do with it being a team sport and not using team accomplishments to overrate individuals (especially using making the finals as a negative compared to first round loss or missing completely)... This has never been an issue for people ranking Wilt in the top 3 for example.

I do agree it is to early for Lebron to be there or even top 5 IMO but the tired excuse of RINGZ (and "celebrate losing") is pretty ridiculous and no one on here has been able to defend it (Russell>Jordan? Hondo>Kobe? Wade>Lebron? Pippen>Dirk and on and on).

Chronz
02-10-2016, 03:36 PM
By the way it is pretty impressive that the 9th and 12th best players ever were able to pull off the last 3peat dynasty on record, sweep one of the most competitive conferences in history, doing so while barely losing 1 game in the Finals in OT, and were so good that they could split and still win 3 titles combined without each other.
I love me some hyperbole as much as the next guy but are we sure the West was "historically" competitive (meaning great, right?) during that span? I've been thinking about that season but either way, yes, they had one of the best runs ever and because of that should prolly be seen as the greatest teams ever IMO and it had as much to do as the talent disparity as much as anything. So lets chill on the Bron bashing.


That's pretty good to be 9th and 12th on the list.

Also pretty amazing that the top 5 guy on the list has been apart of some of the worst shooting performances in Finals history, one of the worst 4th quarter chokes in Finals history,and on the wrong end of the most lopsided Finals debacle ever.....on three different teams, no less. AND has a record of 2-6 despite colluding with his peers.

Pure espn gold!

2-6 despite colluding, in other words, 1 Finals his first year with a new franchise where he underperformed and cost his team and it came vs a team of destiny that had grown accustomed to defeating allegedly more talented teams. That team was a swiss army knife and Miami had yet to embrace their identity, that was the only year Wade and Bosh were both simultaneously in peak form. Every other year either ignores the Wade/Bosh/Love/Kyrie injuries or that 07 Cleveland defeated a superior team with a herculean effort from Bron just to even make the Finals and lost to a Dynastic Spurs team that was FAR superior. Context matters more than you pretend not to know, why would people care about colluding when other athletes were either gifted HOF-laden squads or regretted waiting too long to find them?

Chronz
02-10-2016, 03:37 PM
Ranking Lebron #3 is way too early. The guy is 31 and we haven't even seen him age yet plus he is 2-4 in the finals. It's like the players can celebrate losing nowadays.
Is Karl Malone behind ALOT of PF's for you?

FraziersKnicks
02-10-2016, 03:38 PM
By the way it is pretty impressive that the 9th and 12th best players ever were able to pull off the last 3peat dynasty on record, sweep one of the most competitive conferences in history, doing so while barely losing 1 game in the Finals in OT, and were so good that they could split and still win 3 titles combined without each other.

That's pretty good to be 9th and 12th on the list.

Also pretty amazing that the top 5 guy on the list has been apart of some of the worst shooting performances in Finals history, one of the worst 4th quarter chokes in Finals history,and on the wrong end of the most lopsided Finals debacle ever.....on three different teams, no less. AND has a record of 2-6 despite colluding with his peers.

Pure espn gold!

Are you alluding to LeBron putting up 36/13/9 on 40% shooting against a hugely superior team with JR Smith being his best support? Yet when Kobe goes 6/24 in a game 7 but he gets bailed out by his teammates it's all forgotten about?

A 22 year old LeBron that dragged Big Z, Sasha Pavlovic and Eric Snow to the Finals and then averaged 22/7/7 whilst being severely overmatched by a top 5 player of all-time in his prime. Doesn't that sound similar to Kobe choking up his first finals when he averaged 15/4/4 but was rescued by Shaq (averaged 38 and 17?!) so we forget about how terrible he was? You replace Shaq with Big Z against the Pacers and you don't think we would be talking about Kobe having one of the worst Finals performances ever? Worst than anything LeBron ever did?

Bron should've just lost before he got to any of those Finals apart from the ones he won right? At least then we could shout 2-0!!! UNDEFEATED IN THE FINALS! Like its some arbitrary accomplishment to lose before you make it to the biggest stage.

There are a lot of bitter Kobe fans on this forum. It's time to accept your boy is a borderline top 10 all-time player and be happy about it. Not angry at a guy who is clearly better in every facet of the game of basketball and is a greater all-time player than him.

lakerfan85
02-10-2016, 03:45 PM
What's wrong with ESPN? Lebron should be #1...

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 03:49 PM
What's wrong with ESPN? Lebron should be #1...


Next year bro....they gotta be conservative.

LOL

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 04:13 PM
Next year bro....they gotta be conservative.

LOL

he needs to be at least 32

DanG
02-10-2016, 04:16 PM
Is Karl Malone behind ALOT of PF's for you?

No, but all I'm saying is LeBron shouldn't be six spots ahead of a player like Shaq who has 2 rings over him while being just as dominant if not more dominant than LeBron in his prime. LeBron went to Miami to win rings and that's what his career has been about over the last 6 years and I think we are giving him a pass for the 2011 finals by ranking him at #3.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 04:20 PM
No, but all I'm saying is LeBron shouldn't be six spots ahead of a player like Shaq who has 2 rings over him while being just as dominant if not more dominant than LeBron in his prime. LeBron went to Miami to win rings and that's what his career has been about over the last 6 years and I think we are giving him a pass for the 2011 finals by ranking him at #3.

2011 is the biggest choke job of anyone in the top 20 probably.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2016, 04:23 PM
You know it is a sad day when the PSD all time list, the same list that had a retired Hakeem leapfrog a retired Magic for no damn reason mind you, has proven to be more reasonable than espn.

Even the anti-Kobe pro-Lebron contingent here had Kobe 10 and Lebron 6 if memory serves.....

Bruno
02-10-2016, 04:31 PM
this is all Popovich fault.

if he didn't make one of the biggest coaching blunders in NBA history with the finals on the line we'd be talking about how the king is 13 years into his career with only one lockout title for MIAMI to show for it. now ESPN is claiming that he's top three and ahead of Wilt Chamberlain, thanks a lot Greg.

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 04:33 PM
this is all Popovich fault.

if he didn't make one of the biggest coaching blunders in NBA history with the finals on the line we'd be talking about how the king is 13 years into his career with only one lockout title for MIAMI to show for it. now ESPN is claiming that he's top three and ahead of Wilt Chamberlain, thanks a lot Greg.

are you ever going to let this go hahaha

YAALREADYKNO
02-10-2016, 04:34 PM
You know it is a sad day when the PSD all time list, the same list that had a retired Hakeem leapfrog a retired Magic for no damn reason mind you, has proven to be more reasonable than espn.

Even the anti-Kobe pro-Lebron contingent here had Kobe 10 and Lebron 6 if memory serves.....

Lmao

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 04:35 PM
You know it is a sad day when the PSD all time list, the same list that had a retired Hakeem leapfrog a retired Magic for no damn reason mind you, has proven to be more reasonable than espn.

Even the anti-Kobe pro-Lebron contingent here had Kobe 10 and Lebron 6 if memory serves.....

because I think you have to rank a player on his career, I just can't throw LeBron in the top 5 yet. I still have him on the same tier with Kobe, Bird, and Russell. Obviously I think LeBron WILL end up top 3-5, but I just have an uneasy feeling personally putting him where I think he will be, instead of where I think he is right now.

kdspurman
02-10-2016, 04:44 PM
this is all Popovich fault.

if he didn't make one of the biggest coaching blunders in NBA history with the finals on the line we'd be talking about how the king is 13 years into his career with only one lockout title for MIAMI to show for it. now ESPN is claiming that he's top three and ahead of Wilt Chamberlain, thanks a lot Greg.

sigh....

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 04:48 PM
sigh....

we all feel really sorry for you poor Spurs fans haha. 6,000 straight seasons with 50+ wins, and 5 chips...

valade16
02-10-2016, 04:52 PM
2011 is the biggest choke job of anyone in the top 20 probably.

It's not even the biggest choke job from a top 20 player from that 2011 series.

Dirk's Mavs were up 2-0 vs the Heat and had a double digit lead in the 4th quarter of game 3 and lost that Finals.

And that might not even be Dirk's biggest choke job considering his 67 win Mavs lost in the first round as the #1 seed.

kdspurman
02-10-2016, 04:55 PM
we all feel really sorry for you poor Spurs fans haha. 6,000 straight seasons with 50+ wins, and 5 chips...

lol! :o

But you know, 2014 totally gave me closure for that. It almost made it worth it to witness what I did that following year. The sigh was for Bruno for still insisting Pop blew that game when we'd missed several FT's that would've made that last possession a moot point.

Hawkeye15
02-10-2016, 05:02 PM
lol! :o

But you know, 2014 totally gave me closure for that. It almost made it worth it to witness what I did that following year. The sigh was for Bruno for still insisting Pop blew that game when we'd missed several FT's that would've made that last possession a moot point.

The 2014 Spurs team, starting in game 5 of the Mavs series, played absolutely beautiful basketball. Maybe the best I have ever seen.

Yeah, one possession doesn't win or lose a game. Not even close.

CHANGO
02-10-2016, 05:07 PM
People still holding the 2011 Finals against Lebron. That's the only thing they have against him. Even when they say he is a choker, can't win without superstars, blah, blah. Funny thing is, that is the only bad playoffs/Finals series he has on his entire career, we are talking about 40 or more Playoffs series?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=chambwi01&p3=olajuha01&p4=onealsh01&p5=johnsma02&p6=

Jamiecballer
02-10-2016, 05:09 PM
he'll be top 2-3 when it's over so i have no problem with top 5 right now

tredigs
02-10-2016, 05:12 PM
edit: Posted in the wrong thread.

tredigs
02-10-2016, 05:18 PM
As for 'Bron at #3, that's definitely too high for my taste, but it's not a ridiculous argument to make. Ahead of Kareem or MJ? That would be a ridiculous argument to make. Anywhere from 3-10, 'Bron actually has a legitimate case. There is the idea that we overrate current players, but I can tell you for a fact that most did not consider Hakeem as an All-Time top 8 player at the time he left Houston. His standing rose, and I feel like that's a more common scenario than otherwise (not including earlier greats who played in a fairly different league who have simply been passed up by newer/better players. IE Cousy/Pettit, etc).

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 05:19 PM
Man I wish Kobe was still young. 40 points on bron tonight, after this espn travesty. But **** it. Kobe still going to try.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 05:25 PM
People still holding the 2011 Finals against Lebron. That's the only thing they have against him. Even when they say he is a choker, can't win without superstars, blah, blah. Funny thing is, that is the only bad playoffs/Finals series he has on his entire career, we are talking about 40 or more Playoffs series?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=chambwi01&p3=olajuha01&p4=onealsh01&p5=johnsma02&p6=

How many all time great players/teams has lebron actually beat in the playoffs. This guy has played the worst competition in the playoffs of any other great. When he actually faced a great team such as Dallas and San Antonio he was embarrassed. The win over San Antonio was impressive tho. Bit wild and flukey but impressive.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 05:25 PM
Lebron over all those guys. This is beyond stupid. I wonder how much Nike, Samsung, Coca Cola and co have invested into this travesty...

Bostonjorge
02-10-2016, 05:31 PM
How many all time great players/teams has lebron actually beat in the playoffs. This guy has played the worst competition in the playoffs of any other great. When he actually faced a great team such as Dallas and San Antonio he was embarrassed. The win over San Antonio was impressive tho. Bit wild and flukey but impressive.

Yea Lebron has a losing record against good teams in the playoffs.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 05:31 PM
The win over San Antonio was impressive tho. Bit wild and flukey but impressive.

Try Ray Allen. Lebron was pathetic in those series and was only on a very good level in game 7. Which, without Ray Allen and Bosh, he'd never be in a position to participate in. Wade also had a great game that kept them in contest while Lebron was taking another nap whilst standing.

Is there anyone else on the top 10-20-30 who has lost a Finals game by 36 points?

Jets012
02-10-2016, 05:35 PM
Crazy how LBJ has played pretty much the same as Jordan yet is still so far behind him.

Russell at 7 was pretty bad. He should be around 10 or so. Duncan/Shaq should be 4/5 in my opinion.

I'd have something like:
1) Jordan
2) KAJ
3) Wilt
4) Duncan
5) Shaq
6) James
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Hakeem
10) Russell

That's how my top 10 would be. If Duncan wins a ring this year and has a postseason like he did two years ago, he honestly might have to move up into my top 3. I'm that big of a fan of his all time and he's still impacted the Spurs defensively in such a big way.

Him at #8 is what I have the biggest problem with. Moreso than LBJ at #3.

valade16
02-10-2016, 05:39 PM
Try Ray Allen. Lebron was pathetic in those series and was only on a very good level in game 7. Which, without Ray Allen and Bosh, he'd never be in a position to participate in. Wade also had a great game that kept them in contest while Lebron was taking another nap whilst standing.

Is there anyone else on the top 10-20-30 who has lost a Finals game by 36 points?

Seriously? How about Kobe losing game 7 to the Celtics 131-92...

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 05:43 PM
Seriously? How about Kobe losing game 7 to the Celtics 131-92...

yea. that boston team was annoying and good cant deny they got the best of my boy. san Antonio gave LeBron the most embarrassing and biggest loses in the finals ever though.

Im not sure that san Antonio team was better then boston either.

tredigs
02-10-2016, 05:43 PM
Try Ray Allen. Lebron was pathetic in those series and was only on a very good level in game 7. Which, without Ray Allen and Bosh, he'd never be in a position to participate in. Wade also had a great game that kept them in contest while Lebron was taking another nap whilst standing.

Is there anyone else on the top 10-20-30 who has lost a Finals game by 36 points?

Yes, and should we just include the Finals? Or are we going to reward players for losing earlier and omit them?

valade16
02-10-2016, 05:48 PM
To add to that Jordan's Bulls beat Clyde's Blazers 122-89 Game 1 of the 92 Finals

Malone and Stockton's Jazz got waxed by Jordan's Bulls by 42 points in the 98 Finals.

Hell, Russell's Celtics beat Jerry West's Lakers by 32 (142-110) Game 1 of the 65 Finals then beat them by 33 in Game 5 (129-96)

Jerry West has lost twice by 30+ in the Finals. What a bum.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 05:48 PM
Seriously? How about Kobe losing game 7 to the Celtics 131-92...

Yet, I'm the one having Kobe out of my top 25. It's called consistency. You should try it.

tredigs, of course Finals matter. Being the #1 loser doesn't make you better than the #20 loser. You still lost, you still have no rings to show for in that year. And that's where legends are made. Not winning mediocre teams on your way there.

valade16
02-10-2016, 05:50 PM
Yet, I'm the one having Kobe out of my top 25. It's called consistency. You should try it.

tredigs, of course Finals matter. Being the #1 loser doesn't make you better than the #20 loser. You still lost, you still have no rings to show for in that year. And that's where legends are made. Not winning mediocre teams on your way there.

Then show me your consistency and put Jerry West outside your Top 25 since he lost twice in the same Finals by 30 points :laugh: :laugh:

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 06:00 PM
To add to that Jordan's Bulls beat Clyde's Blazers 122-89 Game 1 of the 92 Finals

Malone and Stockton's Jazz got waxed by Jordan's Bulls by 42 points in the 98 Finals.

Hell, Russell's Celtics beat Jerry West's Lakers by 32 (142-110) Game 1 of the 65 Finals then beat them by 33 in Game 5 (129-96)

Jerry West has lost twice by 30+ in the Finals. What a bum.

Jerry West was without his best player, Elgin Baylor and had only Dick Barnett as a decent 2nd option, who was below par, playing against the best team ever assembled at that point.

I'll give you Drexler and Malone-Stockton(though Stockton wasn't really used in that game). It's one of the reasons I don't rate Karl Malone as high as most do. Drexler was completely destroyed by MJ in that series and it's what hurt his legacy as a top 5 SG of all time, which is something that didn't hurt Kobe losing to a team that was on par to his by a significant margin, because Kobe still has fanboys and he was around during the internet era.

The Heat example losing by 36 to San Antonio is the equivalent of Jerry West and the injured Lakers beating the Celtics by 40 in 1965, though. There's a difference.


(Why don't you factor in the age Malone and Stockton had though?)

TheIlladelph16
02-10-2016, 06:07 PM
How many all time great players/teams has lebron actually beat in the playoffs. This guy has played the worst competition in the playoffs of any other great. When he actually faced a great team such as Dallas and San Antonio he was embarrassed. The win over San Antonio was impressive tho. Bit wild and flukey but impressive.

So when he loses to San Antonio its the most embarrassing loss in Finals history, but when he wins it's a fluke.... I'm not sure you can have it both ways here man.

Also, what all-time greats did Kobe beat exactly?

tredigs
02-10-2016, 06:08 PM
Yet, I'm the one having Kobe out of my top 25. It's called consistency. You should try it.

tredigs, of course Finals matter. Being the #1 loser doesn't make you better than the #20 loser. You still lost, you still have no rings to show for in that year. And that's where legends are made. Not winning mediocre teams on your way there.

What I'm telling you is that in order to remain consistent, you need to open your parameters to ALL playoff games, not just the Finals. Does this make sense to you?

Redrum187
02-10-2016, 06:09 PM
It's not even the biggest choke job from a top 20 player from that 2011 series.

Dirk's Mavs were up 2-0 vs the Heat and had a double digit lead in the 4th quarter of game 3 and lost that Finals.

And that might not even be Dirk's biggest choke job considering his 67 win Mavs lost in the first round as the #1 seed.

PG: Devin Harris - JJ Barea
SG: Jason Terry - Jerry Stackhouse
SF: Josh Howard - Marquis Daniels
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Keith Van Horn
C : Erick Dampier - DeSagana Diop

PG: Gary Peyton - Jason Williams
SG: Dwayne Wade - Jason Kapono
SF: James Posey - Derek Anderson
PF: Udonis Haslem - Antoine Walker
C: Shaq - Alonzo Mourning

I'm sorry, the Mavericks had no business winning 67 games that season. They had no business even being up 2-0 against the Heat. I'll ignore the refs that series, which many objective Heat fans agree were heavily favored, and ignore the fact there was at least 1 convicted corrupted referee who spoke of this matchup... Dirk Nowitzki overachieved with garbage talent, as he has done throughout his entire career.

What superstar has done more with less help?

If JR smith lead this squad:

PG: Nate Robinson
SG: JR Smith
SF: Anthony Morrow
PF: Dajuan Blair
C: Channing Frye

...to a 55-27 record, advances to the Finals and loses 2-4 to a superior squad... did JR "choke"? Or did he just achieve all expectations by somehow getting as far as he did with as little as he had?

It's like the people who knock on LeBron James for having a losing record in the finals. Is it better he NOT advance his team to the Finals so that he doesn't ruin his "finals record"? He never choked, he has just been really unfortunate to play against vastly superior squads.

LeBron didn't choke in 11' either. Dirk Nowitzki just played like the best player in the world for the entire postseason that year.

valade16
02-10-2016, 06:09 PM
Jerry West was without his best player, Elgin Baylor and had only Dick Barnett as a decent 2nd option, who was below par, playing against the best team ever assembled at that point.

I'll give you Drexler and Malone-Stockton(though Stockton wasn't really used in that game). It's one of the reasons I don't rate Karl Malone as high as most do. Drexler was completely destroyed by MJ in that series and it's what hurt his legacy as a top 5 SG of all time, which is something that didn't hurt Kobe losing to a team that was on par to his by a significant margin, because Kobe still has fanboys and he was around during the internet era.

The Heat example losing by 36 to San Antonio is the equivalent of Jerry West and the injured Lakers beating the Celtics by 40 in 1965, though. There's a difference.

(Why don't you factor in the age Malone and Stockton had though?)

No no no, you don't get to apply context. It's called consistency, you should try it... Remember?

You either consistently leave them out or include them. Don't go back on your insult now :laugh:

tredigs
02-10-2016, 06:12 PM
So when he loses to San Antonio its the most embarrassing loss in Finals history, but when he wins it's a fluke.... I'm not sure you can have it both ways here man.

Also, what all-time greats did Kobe beat exactly?

Without spending any time to think on it: Dirk/Duncan/Nash/KG.

valade16
02-10-2016, 06:16 PM
PG: Devin Harris - JJ Barea
SG: Jason Terry - Jerry Stackhouse
SF: Josh Howard - Marquis Daniels
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Keith Van Horn
C : Erick Dampier - DeSagana Diop

PG: Gary Peyton - Jason Williams
SG: Dwayne Wade - Jason Kapono
SF: James Posey - Derek Anderson
PF: Udonis Haslem - Antoine Walker
C: Shaq - Alonzo Mourning

I'm sorry, the Mavericks had no business winning 67 games that season. They had no business even being up 2-0 against the Heat. I'll ignore the refs that series, which many objective Heat fans agree were heavily favored, and ignore the fact there was at least 1 convicted corrupted referee who spoke of this matchup... Dirk Nowitzki overachieved with garbage talent, as he has done throughout his entire career.

What superstar has done more with less help?

If JR smith lead this squad:

PG: Nate Robinson
SG: JR Smith
SF: Anthony Morrow
PF: Dajuan Blair
C: Channing Frye

...to a 55-27 record, advances to the Finals and loses 2-4 to a superior squad... did JR "choke"? Or did he just achieve all expectations by somehow getting as far as he did with as little as he had?

It's like the people who knock on LeBron James for having a losing record in the finals. Is it better he NOT advance his team to the Finals so that he doesn't ruin his "finals record"? He never choked, he has just been really unfortunate to play against vastly superior squads.

LeBron didn't choke in 11' either. Dirk Nowitzki just played like the best player in the world for the entire postseason that year.

I was wondering when I'd see you run in here to defend your boy Dirk :)

I don't care if you don't think they should have won 67 games or been up 2-0, they did and they were.

Besides, if they had no business being up on Miami then you have to admit they had no business losing to the 8th seeded Warriors.

Not to mention Dirk's Mavs had a 67-46 lead vs the Blazers in 2011 and let a hobbled Roy lead them back and win.

Dirk is a great player, one of my favorites, but man is he glad he won that ring because in addition to his quite a few playoff heroics, he's got quite a few playoff choke jobs as well.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 06:35 PM
What I'm telling you is that in order to remain consistent, you need to open your parameters to ALL playoff games, not just the Finals. Does this make sense to you?

Of course it does. But not all playoff series are the same.

2006: beat the Wizards(Arenas, Butler, Jamison), lost to the Pistons in 7. Not a bad effort.

2007: Wizards... Antwan Jamison and then no one else
Nets.. with an aging Carter and Kidd, then Richard Jefferson.
then aging Pistons..
and all that, with the major help from referees to reach the Final to face Kobe, which was the hype. But the Lakers had a touger conference to get through so, Spurs swept in the final

2008: Washington again
then lost to champions Boston

2009: vs extremely aging Pistons
usual chokers in Atlanta (Joe Johnson, Horford, Smith etc)
then lost to an average Orlando team led by Howard- who became overhyped instantly for a few years until he was exposed in LA

2010: vs a decent Chicago team that hadn't developed yet
lost to the Celtics once again

(Miami)
2011: beat the average 76ers
then beat the aging Celtics
then beat Chicago who were quite good
then lost to the Mavs who weren't really that much greater than Chicago (reminder that Chicago beat the Mavs in both RS games that season)

2012: beat an average Knicks side that still didn't understand how to play with both Amare and Melo (and iirc both were sort of injured in that series)
managed to beat a semi-tough Pacers team in 6
managed to beat an aging Celtics squad in 7
then Durant and Westbrook choked

2013: beat the Bucks who wouldn't have made playoffs in any other era in the East with such a team
beat Chicago who iirc were missing Rose and some important players
barely managed to beat Indiana in 7
lucked out in the Finals game 6 and won in 7 in what's gonna be remembered as a fluke and as one of the greates Finals situations (Ray Allen's move back to the three and instant shot)

2014: Charlote... meh
Brooklyn... meh squared
beat the Pacers who were strong that year in 6
then vs the most serious team they faced in the playoffs...Spurs in 5

2015: Boston... this Celtics team had no place in the post-season
Chicago was not even near the 2010-12 team
Atlanta, chokers who would never be a #1 seed in any other season.
then lost in 6 against the most serious opponent they faced, in the Finals.

Can you name me a team that Lebron beat in the Playoffs that could legitimately challenge an NBA title, as a favorite, in any given season?

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 06:37 PM
No no no, you don't get to apply context. It's called consistency, you should try it... Remember?

You either consistently leave them out or include them. Don't go back on your insult now :laugh:

There's always context. That's why you don't get to understand some discussions. You think there's an on and off button.

CHANGO
02-10-2016, 06:39 PM
Try Ray Allen. Lebron was pathetic in those series and was only on a very good level in game 7. Which, without Ray Allen and Bosh, he'd never be in a position to participate in. Wade also had a great game that kept them in contest while Lebron was taking another nap whilst standing.

Is there anyone else on the top 10-20-30 who has lost a Finals game by 36 points?

Yeah man, I agree, Ray Allen with his 10.6ppg, 2.3rpg and 1.6apg playing 27.5 mpg with OUTSTANDING defense was the ONLY reason the HEAT won the series. Lebron sucked with his incompetent, 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7apg and 2.3spg playing 43mpg with extremely awful defense. :rolleyes:

I don't know why I waste my time with trolls like you tbh.

CHANGO
02-10-2016, 06:41 PM
yea. that boston team was annoying and good cant deny they got the best of my boy. san Antonio gave LeBron the most embarrassing and biggest loses in the finals ever though.

Im not sure that san Antonio team was better then boston either.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH THIS IS AMAZING. That Celtics team was GREAT and the Spurs aren't? :laugh:

I sincerely hope you are trolling. I really do.

valade16
02-10-2016, 06:48 PM
There's always context. That's why you don't get to understand some discussions. You think there's an on and off button.

No no no You're the one who didn't want to use context and slam Bron for losing by 30 in the Finals and then when I pointed out Kobe also did it you said you rank them both outside the top 25 because consistency so then when I point out West you backtrack on all that?

You got clowned bro, take it and move on.

You're the one who always wants
to discount context, and Tredigs called you on it in the SF thread regarding my comments about Bron's point total...

You want context? LeBron won that series. Are you seriously giving him **** for losing by 30 in a Finals he won?

I think you asked a question you didn't know the answer to believing it would show LeBron being the only Top 30 player to lose by 30 in the Finals and got clowned when others actually knew their basketball history.

tredigs
02-10-2016, 06:48 PM
@NYK, we're actually in agreement with your premise here. I think LBJ's team success is massively overrated due to the East being so weak during his run. Especially when he teamed up with 2 of the other 3 best players in the East on a single team in his prime. I've said as much on here a number of times. What I'm getting at is that you can't only look at a players Finals wins/losses. You have to consider his teammates, his opponents, and how far he lead them. For the same reason Lebron deserves to be mentioned as going against lackluster opponents in the East, we also have to accept that he sometimes went against far better overall teams than his in the Finals (no more apparent than his first Finals versus San Antonio). It's not as if Jordan in a similar situation would have beat that Spurs team. He'd be able to lead them there as well, but would unquestionably have an L on his Finals record, and there would be no shame in that.

The 2011 Finals is where most fans (myself included), can correctly bash Lebron. Also his Celtics ECF where I thought he quit on the team.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 06:51 PM
No no no You're the one who didn't want to use context and slam Bron for losing by 30 in the Finals and then when I pointed out Kobe also did it you said you rank them both outside the top 25 because consistency so then when I point out West you backtrack on all that?

You got clowned bro, take it and move on.

You're the one who always wants
to discount context, and Tredigs called you on it in the SF thread regarding my comments about Bron's point total...

You want context? LeBron won that series. Are you seriously giving him **** for losing by 30 in a Finals he won?

I think you asked a question you didn't know the answer to believing it would show LeBron being the only Top 30 player to lose by 30 in the Finals and got clowned when others actually knew their basketball history.

a) *by 36

b) you mentioned Kobe, I mentioned consistency

c) you mentioned Drexler, Malone-Stockton (indirectly) and West (directly) so I explained my take on the first 3 plus West


I don't think we agree on what context means, otherwise you wouldn't be going berserk here.

tredigs, there's no way Jordan is swept in the Finals in his prime. He might lose to some superior team(which I doubt, since the Sonics and the Suns imo were superior teams to the Bulls back then) but he's not getting swept.

FraziersKnicks
02-10-2016, 06:54 PM
There's always context. That's why you don't get to understand some discussions. You think there's an on and off button.

Out of interest what's your top 10 all-time list look like?

valade16
02-10-2016, 06:56 PM
Man NYKalltheway got clowned so bad :laugh:

NYK "What other top 30 player besides Bron lost by 30 in the Finals?"

"Kobe"

NYK "That's why he's outside my Top 25. It's called consistency, you should try it" CLEARLY MEANING BECAUSE THOSE TWO LOST BY 30 IN THE FINALS THEY ARE RANKED OUTSIDE THE TOP 25

"Jerry West also"

NYK "Well for him you have to use context"

:laugh: :laugh:

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 07:06 PM
Man NYKalltheway got clowned so bad :laugh:

NYK "What other top 30 player besides Bron lost by 30 in the Finals?"

"Kobe"

NYK "That's why he's outside my Top 25. It's called consistency, you should try it" CLEARLY MEANING BECAUSE THOSE TWO LOST BY 30 IN THE FINALS THEY ARE RANKED OUTSIDE THE TOP 25

"Jerry West also"

NYK "Well for him you have to use context"

:laugh: :laugh:

^^^

Intelligence levels












///
somewhere here

valade16
02-10-2016, 07:10 PM
^^^

Intelligence levels

///
somewhere here

You got clowned. You know it, I know it, we all know it.

What exactly did you mean by show some consistency directly after me saying Kobe also lost by 30 in the Finals and you saying that's why he's outside your top 25?

Where's the consistency with Jerry West then?

Better yet, why even ask that question? Was it rhetorical? Did you know the other top 30 players who lost by 30 in the Finals? I thought you extensively studied NBA history? How did you not know any other instances where that's happened?

CHANGO
02-10-2016, 07:15 PM
Man NYKalltheway got clowned so bad :laugh:

NYK "What other top 30 player besides Bron lost by 30 in the Finals?"

"Kobe"

NYK "That's why he's outside my Top 25. It's called consistency, you should try it" CLEARLY MEANING BECAUSE THOSE TWO LOST BY 30 IN THE FINALS THEY ARE RANKED OUTSIDE THE TOP 25

"Jerry West also"

NYK "Well for him you have to use context"

:laugh: :laugh:

:laugh:

Man, but Jayb got it worse.


yea. that boston team was annoying and good cant deny they got the best of my boy. san Antonio gave LeBron the most embarrassing and biggest loses in the finals ever though.

Im not sure that san Antonio team was better then boston either.

:laugh::worthy:

Scoots
02-10-2016, 07:21 PM
I respect winning over scoring ... It looks like espn does too. It's not all winning (Horry) but it's very very important.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 07:30 PM
PG: Devin Harris - JJ Barea
SG: Jason Terry - Jerry Stackhouse
SF: Josh Howard - Marquis Daniels
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Keith Van Horn
C : Erick Dampier - DeSagana Diop

PG: Gary Peyton - Jason Williams
SG: Dwayne Wade - Jason Kapono
SF: James Posey - Derek Anderson
PF: Udonis Haslem - Antoine Walker
C: Shaq - Alonzo Mourning

I'm sorry, the Mavericks had no business winning 67 games that season. They had no business even being up 2-0 against the Heat. I'll ignore the refs that series, which many objective Heat fans agree were heavily favored, and ignore the fact there was at least 1 convicted corrupted referee who spoke of this matchup... Dirk Nowitzki overachieved with garbage talent, as he has done throughout his entire career.

What superstar has done more with less help?

If JR smith lead this squad:

PG: Nate Robinson
SG: JR Smith
SF: Anthony Morrow
PF: Dajuan Blair
C: Channing Frye

...to a 55-27 record, advances to the Finals and loses 2-4 to a superior squad... did JR "choke"? Or did he just achieve all expectations by somehow getting as far as he did with as little as he had?

It's like the people who knock on LeBron James for having a losing record in the finals. Is it better he NOT advance his team to the Finals so that he doesn't ruin his "finals record"? He never choked, he has just been really unfortunate to play against vastly superior squads.

LeBron didn't choke in 11' either. Dirk Nowitzki just played like the best player in the world for the entire postseason that year.

true, dirk choked vs mia. But I don't have dirk as a top 20 player. and I don't know what you are watching if you don't think LeBron crawled in a hole and disappeared during that series.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 07:33 PM
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH THIS IS AMAZING. That Celtics team was GREAT and the Spurs aren't? :laugh:

I sincerely hope you are trolling. I really do.

huh? I never said the spurs weren't great. I think the Celtics beat them in a 7 game series though.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 07:37 PM
:laugh:

Man, but Jayb got it worse.



:laugh::worthy:

your a clown

Jamiecballer
02-10-2016, 07:40 PM
Yet, I'm the one having Kobe out of my top 25. It's called consistency. You should try it.

tredigs, of course Finals matter. Being the #1 loser doesn't make you better than the #20 loser. You still lost, you still have no rings to show for in that year. And that's where legends are made. Not winning mediocre teams on your way there.
ROFL. Thanks for that.

More-Than-Most
02-10-2016, 08:01 PM
Lol I ****ing love that James is 3... The hate on here by several key people is hilarious.

NYKalltheway
02-10-2016, 08:05 PM
You got clowned. You know it, I know it, we all know it.

What exactly did you mean by show some consistency directly after me saying Kobe also lost by 30 in the Finals and you saying that's why he's outside your top 25?

Where's the consistency with Jerry West then?

Better yet, why even ask that question? Was it rhetorical? Did you know the other top 30 players who lost by 30 in the Finals? I thought you extensively studied NBA history? How did you not know any other instances where that's happened?

Of course it was rhetorical.

The two most celebrated stars of the last 2 generations have suffered from this, despite being the favorites.

You mention Jerry West, who lost to the best team in the world without the best player of his own team with him. That's inconsistent.

Only Clyde Drexler is another example, whilst Malone and Stockton were both over 35 and outsiders in the finals. Drexler was considered, at least in the Western conference, being on par with Michael Jordan. He was destroyed. Drexler could have been the #2 or #3 SG in NBA history, but those performances have lowered his value. But Kobe's and Wade's value never got affected by that. Why? Because of the inconsistency in today's fans minds and their bias against what they haven't educated themselves on and overhyped current stars like freaking ESPN. Though obviously you disagree with ESPN, whilst agreeing. Typical...


You choose to ignore everything you see fit and then ask a random question and have the audacity to add a :laugh: next to your post as if you're talking to a godamn mirror.


P.S: I wonder why you left Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, McHale etc outside of this :laugh2:

SLY WILLIAMS
02-10-2016, 08:06 PM
I do not agree that Lebron is better than Bird or Shaq. Duncan its close. With that said I thought ESPN's top 10 was as good or better than the PSD top 10.

valade16
02-10-2016, 08:39 PM
Of course it was rhetorical.

The two most celebrated stars of the last 2 generations have suffered from this, despite being the favorites.

You mention Jerry West, who lost to the best team in the world without the best player of his own team with him. That's inconsistent.

Only Clyde Drexler is another example, whilst Malone and Stockton were both over 35 and outsiders in the finals. Drexler was considered, at least in the Western conference, being on par with Michael Jordan. He was destroyed. Drexler could have been the #2 or #3 SG in NBA history, but those performances have lowered his value. But Kobe's and Wade's value never got affected by that. Why? Because of the inconsistency in today's fans minds and their bias against what they haven't educated themselves on and overhyped current stars like freaking ESPN. Though obviously you disagree with ESPN, whilst agreeing. Typical...

You choose to ignore everything you see fit and then ask a random question and have the audacity to add a :laugh: next to your post as if you're talking to a godamn mirror.

P.S: I wonder why you left Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, McHale etc outside of this :laugh2:

First, I don't buy for a second that you asked a rhetorical question, and if you did, I don't think you actually knew the answer.

Second, Malone was 34, not 35, and he was the same age as Jordan.

Third, Hilarious that you say I haven't educated myself when you didn't know who else in the top 30 had lost by 30 in the finals and in the same post you claim I haven't educated myself get Karl Malone's age wrong

Your absurdity never ends.

But what does it matter. LeBron won that series! So apply context (the thing you never use and claim I don't). His 30 point loss literally didn't matter. He won anyway.

You got schooled. Take it and move on.

P.S. I didn't leave Magic, Shaq, Kareem, McHale or Bird out of this, you asked about top 30 players who lost by 30 in the Finals, that doesn't apply to any of them so what's your point? Trying to divert the conversation away from your attempt at a burn that backfired badly?

Raps08-09 Champ
02-10-2016, 08:59 PM
He'll be 1B when it's said and done. He may not be 3 yet but he's in the 4-6 range already.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 09:07 PM
Glad to see not everyone over at ESPN are idiots as wilbon and jalen both agree Kobe over lebron.

More-Than-Most
02-10-2016, 09:33 PM
Glad to see not everyone over at ESPN are idiots as wilbon and jalen both agree Kobe over lebron.

I honestly cant see any argument except better shooter for Kobe over James... James is literally better at every single other aspect of basketball.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 09:57 PM
I honestly cant see any argument except better shooter for Kobe over James... James is literally better at every single other aspect of basketball.

Some ppl who know basketball more then us such as jalen and wilbon look at more then just stats.

Jayb587
02-10-2016, 10:09 PM
Actually I'd say most former players and TV analysts value winning alot more then ppl in this forum do.

Jamiecballer
02-10-2016, 11:08 PM
Actually I'd say most former players and TV analysts value winning alot more then ppl in this forum do.
They fall into the same traps the rest of us do.

NFLNBA
02-11-2016, 01:53 AM
Most people's top 10 all have winning records in finals. Then there is LeBron who somehow gets in as only guy with AWFUL finals record. This great God of talent yet ONLY one with failing finals record lol its absurd the love espn and the flop generation of fans give him. Dude has had a 3 headed monster entire career. Teams up with 2 Allstars sees the decline and finds new younger Allstars lol yet still chokes in biggest stage. Yep top 3, 5, 10. Only player in list that high who failed in bigest games

numba1CHANGsta
02-11-2016, 02:44 AM
Idk what's funnier, LeBron ranked over Magic or Lebron in the top 5 all time right now LOL Man i'm so thankful for NBA on TNT:D

nastynice
02-11-2016, 02:48 AM
Glad to see not everyone over at ESPN are idiots as wilbon and jalen both agree Kobe over lebron.

Kobe and Lebron are pretty close, I don't think anyone's an idiot for taking either over the other. Personally, I respect kobe more, and I'm one of those people who DOES put weight on "killer instinct", or whatever you want to call it, but I think I have to admit that lebron is just a flat out better player. He just is, imo. But I like kobe more, I respect his game more, its just so beautiful to watch. Kobe is without a doubt the most versatile/SKILLED (not best) basketball player, along with jordan, I have ever seen, I've been watching since early-mid 90's, so I can't really comment on anyone from before that time.

nastynice
02-11-2016, 02:51 AM
Initially, lebron being top 5 does sound crazy, but when I actually thought of it, at least from the 90's on, I think the only (I assume) givens above him are Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem. So from 90's on, I think he CAN BE ARGUED as the 4th best. Obviously there was a lot of bball before then, but just saying that although at first it sounds a little ridiculous, when you actually think about it and break it down, its not so far fetched.

His time in Miami really elevated him, in my eyes, especially his first two years there. Some of those playoff series, damn, that boy was just flat out filthy

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 03:36 AM
Kobe and Lebron are pretty close, I don't think anyone's an idiot for taking either over the other. Personally, I respect kobe more, and I'm one of those people who DOES put weight on "killer instinct", or whatever you want to call it, but I think I have to admit that lebron is just a flat out better player. He just is, imo. But I like kobe more, I respect his game more, its just so beautiful to watch. Kobe is without a doubt the most versatile/SKILLED (not best) basketball player, along with jordan, I have ever seen, I've been watching since early-mid 90's, so I can't really comment on anyone from before that time.

I can respect that opinion. The killer instinct and skill are two of the reasons I have Kobe higher. I found it funny that lebron admitted if ages were reversed Kobe would have went HAM on him like Kobe went HAM on old jordan. But bron says his way of going at Kobe was winning the game. The two personalities are so different. Lebron is still too passive for my taste. I look at brons size, speed, and strenght and sometimes wonder how he ever loses a game. Then remember that kill mentality just isn't there.

THE MTL
02-11-2016, 04:06 AM
I wouldn't put him ahead of Shaq, Magic, or Wilt. However, I'm going to debate Duncan cause his last championships were mainly cause of the brilliance of Pop. He hasnt been ELITE in 10 years.

Gander13SM
02-11-2016, 05:54 AM
I can respect that opinion. The killer instinct and skill are two of the reasons I have Kobe higher. I found it funny that lebron admitted if ages were reversed Kobe would have went HAM on him like Kobe went HAM on old jordan. But bron says his way of going at Kobe was winning the game. The two personalities are so different. Lebron is still too passive for my taste. I look at brons size, speed, and strenght and sometimes wonder how he ever loses a game. Then remember that kill mentality just isn't there.

Lmao. What a load of horse ****. I don't care about all time lists or who's better than who in that regard. But the whole "killer instinct" thing is just hilarious to me.

You should read "Killer Instinct" by Bob Cousy/John Devaney.

Gander13SM
02-11-2016, 05:58 AM
I wouldn't put him ahead of Shaq, Magic, or Wilt. However, I'm going to debate Duncan cause his last championships were mainly cause of the brilliance of Pop. He hasnt been ELITE in 10 years.

When he was a averaging 20/11/3/2 on 54% with brilliant defense that led to him being all-nba first and defensive first he wasn't elite?

dAngelo
02-11-2016, 06:36 AM
Lol at Kobe's "killer instinct".

Where was this so called "killer instinct" when they were up 3-1 against the Suns?

Where was this so called "killer instinct" when the Lakers, the defending champs, were being swept by the Mavs during the 2011 playoffs?

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 06:55 AM
P.S. I didn't leave Magic, Shaq, Kareem, McHale or Bird out of this, you asked about top 30 players who lost by 30 in the Finals, that doesn't apply to any of them so what's your point? Trying to divert the conversation away from your attempt at a burn that backfired badly?

NBA Finals 2000:

Indiana Pacers win by 33, 120 to 87. Beating the Lakers.

But Shaq was dominant as usual. Kobe didn't deliver. 4/20 FG, 8 points in total.

NBA Finals 1984:
Celtics lose by 33 to the Lakers.

McHale was below average. Bird was dominant but his teammates didn't deliver. Bird had 30 points that night.


NBA Finals 1985, revenge time in game 1 (game 3 had a dominant Lakers win by 25 though) :
Celtics beat the Lakers by 34

Magic had a decent game, Kareem had a bad game (I think he was 38 or something), Worthy had a decent game. Problem was, McHale, Bird and the other Celtics were dominant as hell, with Scott freaking Wedman hitting 11 out of 11 shots.


I guess you either don't know what you're talking about, or history lied to us.

There are other great players that have lost by that large a margin. Tim Duncan is one who had a piss poor game vs the Pistons and lost by 31 while Bruce Bowen who was supposed to be their defensive anchor was acting as if he wasn't even on the court. That actually was one of the worst blowouts ever in Finals history, since the opposing team wasn't that great, they were just average at best. The reason why this doesn't go that much against Duncan was the fact that they were outsiders playing against the reigning champs who had beaten a Lakers including Shaq, Malone, Kobe, Payton and whoever else that team had.

Kobe and Lebron on the other hand, were against teams that were worse (on paper) and it was their fault they lost by that much. Shaq played with Kobe, yet it was Kobe's bad decision making and bad play that forced Shaq to lose by that much. I can't expect a player scoring 30+ to take blame for a blowout. He's, at lesat on paper, the only one trying. Though I have to admit that Gasol had equal blame in that Game 6 blowout

but once more, you prove to not know what you're talking about.

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 07:05 AM
Lol at Kobe's "killer instinct".

Where was this so called "killer instinct" when they were up 3-1 against the Suns?

Where was this so called "killer instinct" when the Lakers, the defending champs, were being swept by the Mavs during the 2011 playoffs?

Kobe does have a killer instict. The problem is, he's not up there in basketball IQ to utlizie it properly. His shot decision making was attrocious to begin with and by the end of his career it'll be considered erratic at best. The great thing about Kobe is that he made many of those tough shots. Those are shots that even Michael Jordan wouldn't dare to try on a constant basis due to their low % of success. It's all down to whether Kobe had the skillset to make his shots easier, or whether he wanted to be flashy in his scoring to have a brand of his own. I think both apply here to some extent.

And Kobe's not as good defensively as he's been hyped to be, in order to use that instict to his advantage in that aspect of the game. He's been putting the effort, but he's not a game changer on the defensive end.

valade16
02-11-2016, 10:49 AM
NBA Finals 2000:

Indiana Pacers win by 33, 120 to 87. Beating the Lakers.

But Shaq was dominant as usual. Kobe didn't deliver. 4/20 FG, 8 points in total.

NBA Finals 1984:
Celtics lose by 33 to the Lakers.

McHale was below average. Bird was dominant but his teammates didn't deliver. Bird had 30 points that night.

NBA Finals 1985, revenge time in game 1 (game 3 had a dominant Lakers win by 25 though) :
Celtics beat the Lakers by 34

Magic had a decent game, Kareem had a bad game (I think he was 38 or something), Worthy had a decent game. Problem was, McHale, Bird and the other Celtics were dominant as hell, with Scott freaking Wedman hitting 11 out of 11 shots.

I guess you either don't know what you're talking about, or history lied to us.

There are other great players that have lost by that large a margin. Tim Duncan is one who had a piss poor game vs the Pistons and lost by 31 while Bruce Bowen who was supposed to be their defensive anchor was acting as if he wasn't even on the court. That actually was one of the worst blowouts ever in Finals history, since the opposing team wasn't that great, they were just average at best. The reason why this doesn't go that much against Duncan was the fact that they were outsiders playing against the reigning champs who had beaten a Lakers including Shaq, Malone, Kobe, Payton and whoever else that team had.

Kobe and Lebron on the other hand, were against teams that were worse (on paper) and it was their fault they lost by that much. Shaq played with Kobe, yet it was Kobe's bad decision making and bad play that forced Shaq to lose by that much. I can't expect a player scoring 30+ to take blame for a blowout. He's, at lesat on paper, the only one trying. Though I have to admit that Gasol had equal blame in that Game 6 blowout

but once more, you prove to not know what you're talking about.

I'll admit I didn't know about those, but you didn't know about West, Malone, Drexler, etc. (and I have a strong suspicion you just googled these too) so you saying I don't know what I'm talking about is rich because you didn't know what you're talking about either.

You can add hypocrite to your many other failings.

But let's go back to the original reason we're having this back and forth:

You said What other top 10-20-30 player besides Bron has lost by 30 in the finals?

In an attempt to belittle LeBron. But considering all these guys have also lost by 30 in the Finals:

Shaq
Kobe
West
Drexler
Malone
Stockton
Magic
Kareem
Bird
McHale

What a stupid question. That's like 1/3 of all the top players. So you're criticizing LeBron for something a ton of other top players did.

But then when I pointed out Kobe you said this:

I have him outside my Top 25. It's called consistency, you should try it

CLEARLY meaning you were consistent in ranking Kobe and LeBron outside the top 25 in part because they both lost by 30 in the Finals.

But it turns out you're not consistent, because you have a ton of players in your top 25 who lost by 30 in the Finals.

So I ask, what did you possibly mean when asking about anyone besides Bron losing by 30 in the Finals that doesn't make you sound like an idiot?

It was a stupid question and lots of others have done it. So what was your point in asking?

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 11:49 AM
Lmao. What a load of horse ****. I don't care about all time lists or who's better than who in that regard. But the whole "killer instinct" thing is just hilarious to me.

You should read "Killer Instinct" by Bob Cousy/John Devaney.

What is hilarious about it? That you can't use a stat to measure it? And that you actually have to watch games and know basketball to determine it?

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 11:54 AM
Kobe does have a killer instict. The problem is, he's not up there in basketball IQ to utlizie it properly. His shot decision making was attrocious to begin with and by the end of his career it'll be considered erratic at best. The great thing about Kobe is that he made many of those tough shots. Those are shots that even Michael Jordan wouldn't dare to try on a constant basis due to their low % of success. It's all down to whether Kobe had the skillset to make his shots easier, or whether he wanted to be flashy in his scoring to have a brand of his own. I think both apply here to some extent.

And Kobe's not as good defensively as he's been hyped to be, in order to use that instict to his advantage in that aspect of the game. He's been putting the effort, but he's not a game changer on the defensive end.

Kobes basketball IQ is probably the greatest ever. Don't confuse his desire to shoot and score for having a low bball IQ.

FraziersKnicks
02-11-2016, 11:54 AM
What is hilarious about it? That you can't use a stat to measure it? And that you actually have to watch games and know basketball to determine it?

What about his terrible shooting percentages in the clutch? Isn't that a good representative of his "killer instinct"?

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 12:54 PM
What about his terrible shooting percentages in the clutch? Isn't that a good representative of his "killer instinct"?

no. there is no stat to measure it, which is why you have so much trouble understanding it.

Tony_Starks
02-11-2016, 01:02 PM
Putting Lebron in a top 3 right now is the equivalent to saying Drake is one of the 3 best rappers EVER and Eminem is somewhere around 12....

ewing
02-11-2016, 01:06 PM
kids these days, ya know

Ball_Out
02-11-2016, 01:33 PM
omfg championships jesus christ.

I wouldnt have him above Shaq or Timmy just yet.

Id have him 6 or 7... Id have Shaq/duncan/mj/mj def above him.

Id also have Shaq/Timmy/Lebron ahead of Bird/Russell

championships absolutely matter when talking about all time greats. How could you be a top player and you didn't lead your team to multiple championships? I understand that a lot has to do with team and what not, but teams are usually built around these guys to win.

My point is if we take the top 5 players in the league and have a fantasy draft, all those teams would be fairly even and it would come down to play on the court. The greats usually are the ones that stand tall in the end. (No pun). Just my opinion.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:09 PM
no. there is no stat to measure it, which is why you have so much trouble understanding it.

if there is no way to measure something, it's useless as a factor in a debate

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:10 PM
championships absolutely matter when talking about all time greats. How could you be a top player and you didn't lead your team to multiple championships? I understand that a lot has to do with team and what not, but teams are usually built around these guys to win.

My point is if we take the top 5 players in the league and have a fantasy draft, all those teams would be fairly even and it would come down to play on the court. The greats usually are the ones that stand tall in the end. (No pun). Just my opinion.

and have the most talent around them

ewing
02-11-2016, 02:11 PM
poor LeBron

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:15 PM
poor LeBron

I am not even speaking about LeBron. I mean any all timer in general.

Ball_Out
02-11-2016, 02:18 PM
and have the most talent around them

I think you sort of missed the point i was trying to make. I was saying that all of those guys on this "top list" have played on extremely talented teams. None of these guys sat around for years and wasted away. What did they do with their opportunities? Where they able to lead the team to a tittle? Were they the guy that others looked to for motivation? Were opposing teams able to implement a game plan that completely took the player out of it and caused that team to lose?

Malone and Jordan both played for amazing teams, with other hall of famers on them. Hall of fame coaches, etc. Jordan was simply greater than Malone and was the winner every time they met in the finals. Although Jordan is a bad example to use, I hope you see where im going.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 02:20 PM
if there is no way to measure something, it's useless as a factor in a debate

In a science debate maybe. This is basketball, where emotions, motivation, will to win, and the human factor come into play.

only a box score watcher would say something like that.

Not until LeBron and his "check my stats" tshirt did people try to take the human factor out of basketball to spend endless hours staring at and analyzing box scores.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:23 PM
I think you sort of missed the point i was trying to make. I was saying that all of those guys on this "top list" have played on extremely talented teams. None of these guys sat around for years and wasted away. What did they do with their opportunities? Where they able to lead the team to a tittle? Were they the guy that others looked to for motivation? Were opposing teams able to implement a game plan that completely took the player out of it and caused that team to lose?

Malone and Jordan both played for amazing teams, with other hall of famers on them. Hall of fame coaches, etc. Jordan was simply greater than Malone and was the winner every time they met in the finals. Although Jordan is a bad example to use, I hope you see where im going.

there is a difference in the talent level, and the number of seasons played with talent though. Bird, Magic, or Dunca for instance, always had chip help. Hakeem, or LeBron, not so much. If you expect an all timer to win multiple rings, he better have a very high amount of awesome talent alongside him for a lot of years..

I do see your point though

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-11-2016, 02:24 PM
I have no idea how these list were made and I don't really want to read how they were. But one thing I am unsure of and maybe one of you could answer, are they projecting for future production? Cause Lebron at number 3 in a couple years is very understandable. But not now. And I also seen Steph Curry WAY to high. If he stopped playing today, he might be a top 60 ever. Not in the 20's.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 02:25 PM
I think you sort of missed the point i was trying to make. I was saying that all of those guys on this "top list" have played on extremely talented teams. None of these guys sat around for years and wasted away. What did they do with their opportunities? Where they able to lead the team to a tittle? Were they the guy that others looked to for motivation? Were opposing teams able to implement a game plan that completely took the player out of it and caused that team to lose?

Malone and Jordan both played for amazing teams, with other hall of famers on them. Hall of fame coaches, etc. Jordan was simply greater than Malone and was the winner every time they met in the finals. Although Jordan is a bad example to use, I hope you see where im going.

Jordan is the best example to use. he maximized his opportunities, never losing, and winning finals MVP every time. If Jordan had lost a couple of those finals and gave up a couple of those finals MVPs to pippen, the best player ever argument would be a lot more muddled.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 02:26 PM
there is a difference in the talent level, and the number of seasons played with talent though. Bird, Magic, or Dunca for instance, always had chip help. Hakeem, or LeBron, not so much. If you expect an all timer to win multiple rings, he better have a very high amount of awesome talent alongside him for a lot of years..

I do see your point though

LeBron lost twice with some pretty awesome talent.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:29 PM
LeBron lost twice with some pretty awesome talent.

and? Only one of the top greats didn't lost with great teams. And I hope you aren't referring to last years Cavs haha (assuming you meant Miami losses)

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 02:29 PM
I have no idea how these list were made and I don't really want to read how they were. But one thing I am unsure of and maybe one of you could answer, are they projecting for future production? Cause Lebron at number 3 in a couple years is very understandable. But not now. And I also seen Steph Curry WAY to high. If he stopped playing today, he might be a top 60 ever. Not in the 20's.

my exact thoughts as well.

mngopher35
02-11-2016, 02:29 PM
I have no idea how these list were made and I don't really want to read how they were. But one thing I am unsure of and maybe one of you could answer, are they projecting for future production? Cause Lebron at number 3 in a couple years is very understandable. But not now. And I also seen Steph Curry WAY to high. If he stopped playing today, he might be a top 60 ever. Not in the 20's.


Ya a lot of people have pointed it out, it seems that current players in their prime (which it appears they gave Lebron credit for) all got a bit overrated maybe due to projecting. It isn't like these guys can't get there but all just seem a little high atm.

Ball_Out
02-11-2016, 02:31 PM
Jordan is the best example to use. he maximized his opportunities, never losing, and winning finals MVP every time. If Jordan had lost a couple of those finals and gave up a couple of those finals MVPs to pippen, the best player ever argument would be a lot more muddled.

This is my exact point right here. Jordan maximized his opportunities. There were other great players and great teams in the league, Jordan made sure none of that mattered and did what he was supposed to do.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 02:32 PM
and? Only one of the top greats didn't lost with great teams. And I hope you aren't referring to last years Cavs haha (assuming you meant Miami losses)

yea Miami ones, but we will see this year as well with the rematch against GS likely looming. after all the talk of the cavs winning if healthy if he loses to them again that's a serious ding on his legacy.

taking into account talent level and lebrons supposed top 3 greatness he should have been 4/4 in Miami.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-11-2016, 02:40 PM
This is my exact point right here. Jordan maximized his opportunities. There were other great players and great teams in the league, Jordan made sure none of that mattered and did what he was supposed to do.
First off, Jordan is the greatest. Let me get that out of the way. But who are these great teams you are referring to? There were great players, but none of them had a team around them like Jordan. Who were theses other great players side kicks? Malone had Stockton and they made the finals only twice in all those years together. So they were not a really great team. Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, Drexler, Barkley didn't play with anyone like Pippen, and the rest.

Ball_Out
02-11-2016, 02:45 PM
First off, Jordan is the greatest. Let me get that out of the way. But who are these great teams you are referring to? There were great players, but none of them had a team around them like Jordan. Who were theses other great players side kicks? Malone had Stockton and they made the finals only twice in all those years together. So they were not a really great team. Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, Drexler, Barkley didn't play with anyone like Pippen, and the rest.
I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying that the Bulls were the only great team in the early and mid 90's? If that's your point then we are way off. Lol

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 03:15 PM
yea Miami ones, but we will see this year as well with the rematch against GS likely looming. after all the talk of the cavs winning if healthy if he loses to them again that's a serious ding on his legacy.

taking into account talent level and lebrons supposed top 3 greatness he should have been 4/4 in Miami.

thing is, LeBron is a bit older now, I don't think he is near his peak anymore, and I really don't like Love/Irving as teammates. I don't think Cleveland has a chance in hell of beating GS or SA. But that is me.

LeBron may have very well missed his opportunity for another chip or two in Miami, I am not sure he gets another matchup that he can win in the finals.

JAZZNC
02-11-2016, 03:51 PM
First off, Jordan is the greatest. Let me get that out of the way. But who are these great teams you are referring to? There were great players, but none of them had a team around them like Jordan. Who were theses other great players side kicks? Malone had Stockton and they made the finals only twice in all those years together. So they were not a really great team. Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, Drexler, Barkley didn't play with anyone like Pippen, and the rest.
This. People far to often underestimate the amount of talent Jordan was playing with. I love when people talk about the Bulls beating the Jazz and saying it somehow tarnished Malone/Stockton. That Bulls team was so much better all around it is kinda amazing to me tha the Jazz were able to make it go 6 games. Obviously Jordan was the engine that made that team go but he had a ridiculous amount of talent alongside him to go along with a top 2 coach in the history of the game. If Jordan gets put with talent like LeBron has in Cleveland right now for his whole career he might have a championship or two maybe. Some people seem to think Jordan just beat everyone by himself but neglect the fact that he played alongside tremendous talent.

mngopher35
02-11-2016, 04:04 PM
Magic+Kareem+ a lot of good other players mixed in (Worthy+norman+cooper+wilkes) 5 titles in 10 or so years
Bird+Mchale+Parish+ others like DJ and Maxwell mixed in 3 titles in 9ish years or so
Jordan+Pippen+Grant/Rodman and Phil 6 titles in 9 or so years
Kobe+Shaq+Phil 3 rings in 8 years
Kobe+Odom/Gasol/Bynum frontcourt+ Phil 2 rings in 4 years
Lebron+wade+bosh 2 rings in 4 years

I wanted to use a mix of guard/wing players in this range who have been surrounded by talent to help show how important it is to rings so maybe it can stopped being used individually so much. Notice when you pair a top 10 player with another top 10 player how many rings pile up (or even just top about 30 player with top 10)? Notice how most of these amazing TEAMS account for all these guys rings? Magic didn't win again once Kareem was gone. Jordan wasn't winning in Chicago before Pippen and even then they needed him and the team to develop together some. Despite it being Kobe's absolute peak his worst team performances were 05-07 in between the two teams above. Lebron couldn't win in Cleveland with poor roster support but didn't miss a finals in Miami while winning half. Bird had talent around him almost his entire career which is a bonus other stars do not receive (consider Hakeem and his 2 rings with much less support throughout).

Basically what I am pointing out is how dependant these all time greats with rings were on being surrounded by top level support. The amount of support and time with that support differs so context is far more important than just total rings.

Jordan didn't just go from 0 to GOAT in 91 and on by increasing his talent level dramatically, he just finally got team support needed to win it all and continued to have that support moving forward until the Wizard days. Kobe doesn't have one of the worst peaks ever for a great (and huge drop off from early/late days) due to first round exits, he just clearly didn't have the same support as when he won his rings next to either amazing front court. Lebron was winning MVP awards in Cleveland but he just didn't have anyone near the level of Shaq/Kaj/Pippen etc. to help him win titles there. In Miami he had a Wade (even if declining) and Bosh where they won due to that support (and they really only won once the TEAM was built better, not starting bibby+anthony). In order to win these guys all had amazing teams around them but it happened at different points in their careers and lasted different lengths of time, but without that support no matter how good they were they didn't win it all.

I just don't think I will ever understand the people who want to ignore this context to push an idea of rings being a good judge of the individual. Sure you want to make sure when given that talent a player is capable of winning but all of these guys this high have done that just with a major mix in context (and not every player gets the same opportunities). The key is separating the individuals impact from the team, not just seeing which one spent more time with better teams leading to titles.

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 04:05 PM
Kobes basketball IQ is probably the greatest ever. Don't confuse his desire to shoot and score for having a low bball IQ.

There's no way Kobe's bball IQ is higher than Jordan's. Jordan is by far the #1 in that aspect.

Kobe's is high indeed, but what I was trying to say was that he trusted his instict more than his bbal understanding and there was a relatively big gap between the two that was evident from his poor shot selection.
That's part of the definiton of basketball IQ: to make the right choice at the right time. Kobe usually made bad choices, but he did them because he wanted to put nails on coffins, in haste. He made his own life more difficult with all that. But it's become part of his identity and that's why his following was so big, you can't argue that he was not near excellent with that style.

nastynice
02-11-2016, 04:10 PM
What about his terrible shooting percentages in the clutch? Isn't that a good representative of his "killer instinct"?

As someone who values killer instinct, I'll tell you this isn't what I mean when I say that. What I mean is like, ok, the guy just wants to win. That's it. Nothing else matters. Like u can take away his 4 other teammates and tell him play, and he will just go at it. He will leave it all out on the court. He won't care if it's fair or unfair, when that man is on the court he is unconscious, u can chop his right hand off and instead of asking for a bandaid he will instead start trying to learn how to shoot with his left. And I respect that ALOT in players.

Lebron had this for a very short while, his first two yrs in Miami. That boy didn't cate about anything, you could see his mentality was if I gotta strap these other 4 guys into my back and repetitively drive to the hoop, then that's what I'm gonna do. I'll carry all there weight, because if that's what I have to do to win, that's what I'm gonna do. Obviously that mavs series was diff, I have no explanation for what happens, but unfortunately because of it people forget just how other worldly and u stoppable force he was vs the Bulls and celtics earlier. When I was watching those playoffs, that's when I knew ok, he's bettr than Kobe, because he's finally developing that one thing he was missing.

Too bad he never fully developed it, you can see he's lost it, by his body language. I think the ring just put a bit of complacency in him. You can see how he plays, when he's on the court, it's as tho he has excuses running thru his head when he's out there. Even last yr in the finals, I def appreciate what he did and his effort, but u could just see his body language, it wasn't about just winning no matter what. You could just tell while he's on the court, he's thinking to himself, well my two main teammates are missing, so I have an excuse. Doesn't mean he's not trying and performing, just means he just doesn't have that particular mentality which I value.

My boy Curry is developing this thing. His is a lil diff, just cuz of how good his team is, but u can see how bad he wants to break teams' soul in the 3rd quarter. You can tell he wants teams to just give up, he wants to crush them so bad. This boy is unconscious when he on the court.

Anyway, having said all that, I agree with someone who said its almost kinda useless to use in a debate. It probably is, but that doesn't mean I don't value it as a basketball fan. I do value it, it's a quality which Altho may not be measurable, has a very real effect on the game. Also it's not the end all be all of anything, like I said I earlier, I still personally rank lebron higher than Kobe.

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 04:13 PM
Out of interest what's your top 10 all-time list look like?

I don't really have a steady one as there's many parameters I neglect at occasions so I prefer placing the players in particular levels:

Level 1: Michael Jordan. Probably on his own (GOAT?)
Level 2: Magic, Bird, Kareem (timeless greatness)
Level 3a: Russell, Wilt, West, Robertson (old schoo greatnessl)
Level 3b: Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Dr J (modern and post-modern greatness)
Level 4: this has soooo many names I don't wanna start mentioning them as I'm gonna forget a lot. Could find up to 20 names here for sure. Going from Baylor & Havlicek (old school) to Isiah Thomas, Garnett & Kobe. Some I obviously rate higher than others within this category but still, it's hard to objectively rank most of these guys.
Level 5: arguably another 20-25 names. Which includes Lebron.

[edit: I'm pretty sure I've forgotten something/someone]


valade, I can't even bother with you. Just take the L, you keep contradicting yourself and instead of accepting that, you're trying to come on top of everything. You said that Magic, Shaq, McHale and Bird never lost by 30, acted all smart when I asked a rhetorical question you didn't know the answer to and then make a post defending your original post using Magic, Shaq, McHale and Bird as players who have indeed lost by 30+. You just don't make sense and are as inconsistent as hell. I'm as consistent as they get, you're just not able to keep up with what I'm saying because you're offended for some odd reason, as if Lebron is your cousin or something.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 04:25 PM
There's no way Kobe's bball IQ is higher than Jordan's. Jordan is by far the #1 in that aspect.

Kobe's is high indeed, but what I was trying to say was that he trusted his instict more than his bbal understanding and there was a relatively big gap between the two that was evident from his poor shot selection.
That's part of the definiton of basketball IQ: to make the right choice at the right time. Kobe usually made bad choices, but he did them because he wanted to put nails on coffins, in haste. He made his own life more difficult with all that. But it's become part of his identity and that's why his following was so big, you can't argue that he was not near excellent with that style.

Jordan is his only competition in the IQ department. Kobes shot selection is pretty overblown, as it never stopped him from winning anything significant, on his best teams he was less of a chucker and definitely let his teammates get involved, plus playing in a system like a triangle stopped him from going into all out chuck mode. On his bad teams he was all out chuck city, and I didn't mind it at all.

I think your best argument comes when the game is on the line and the team needs a shot. Kobe is going to take that shot more times then not and trust himself regardless of the defense being played on him. And personally for entertainment purposes id rather watch him shoot it himself then pass to a lesser player like devon george or smush parker. He missed a lot of em, but atleast he had the balls to take them.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 04:31 PM
As someone who values killer instinct, I'll tell you this isn't what I mean when I say that. What I mean is like, ok, the guy just wants to win. That's it. Nothing else matters. Like u can take away his 4 other teammates and tell him play, and he will just go at it. He will leave it all out on the court. He won't care if it's fair or unfair, when that man is on the court he is unconscious, u can chop his right hand off and instead of asking for a bandaid he will instead start trying to learn how to shoot with his left. And I respect that ALOT in players.

Lebron had this for a very short while, his first two yrs in Miami. That boy didn't cate about anything, you could see his mentality was if I gotta strap these other 4 guys into my back and repetitively drive to the hoop, then that's what I'm gonna do. I'll carry all there weight, because if that's what I have to do to win, that's what I'm gonna do. Obviously that mavs series was diff, I have no explanation for what happens, but unfortunately because of it people forget just how other worldly and u stoppable force he was vs the Bulls and celtics earlier. When I was watching those playoffs, that's when I knew ok, he's bettr than Kobe, because he's finally developing that one thing he was missing.

Too bad he never fully developed it, you can see he's lost it, by his body language. I think the ring just put a bit of complacency in him. You can see how he plays, when he's on the court, it's as tho he has excuses running thru his head when he's out there. Even last yr in the finals, I def appreciate what he did and his effort, but u could just see his body language, it wasn't about just winning no matter what. You could just tell while he's on the court, he's thinking to himself, well my two main teammates are missing, so I have an excuse. Doesn't mean he's not trying and performing, just means he just doesn't have that particular mentality which I value.

My boy Curry is developing this thing. His is a lil diff, just cuz of how good his team is, but u can see how bad he wants to break teams' soul in the 3rd quarter. You can tell he wants teams to just give up, he wants to crush them so bad. This boy is unconscious when he on the court.

Anyway, having said all that, I agree with someone who said its almost kinda useless to use in a debate. It probably is, but that doesn't mean I don't value it as a basketball fan. I do value it, it's a quality which Altho may not be measurable, has a very real effect on the game. Also it's not the end all be all of anything, like I said I earlier, I still personally rank lebron higher than Kobe.

Man I definitely agree with the curry analysis. He and draymond together are just out to destroy peoples whole mental psyche, I don't believe the cavs think they can even beat them in a 7 game series anymore after that beating they put on them. They completely crushed the cavs will. Lebron just doesn't do this as a cav, its disappointing because he has the body, the speed, and skill to completely crush the wills of teams, but he doesn't do it. As you said he did start to get it in Miami, and for it, he was at the best we will ever see from him, but it was short lived.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 04:33 PM
Jordan is his only competition in the IQ department. Kobes shot selection is pretty overblown, as it never stopped him from winning anything significant, on his best teams he was less of a chucker and definitely let his teammates get involved, plus playing in a system like a triangle stopped him from going into all out chuck mode. On his bad teams he was all out chuck city, and I didn't mind it at all.

I think your best argument comes when the game is on the line and the team needs a shot. Kobe is going to take that shot more times then not and trust himself regardless of the defense being played on him. And personally for entertainment purposes id rather watch him shoot it himself then pass to a lesser player like devon george or smush parker. He missed a lot of em, but atleast he had the balls to take them.

In the last 5 minutes of a 1 possession game, the Lakers offense drops from 108 points per 100 possessions, to 84. Why? Because everyone has always known Kobe is going to play hero ball.

So trust me, the other team loves the fact that he "has the balls to take them".

Chronz
02-11-2016, 04:37 PM
I highly doubt Kobe is as smart as you claim and he's actually shown he could shoot too much on quality teams against the behest of its best player and coach, he's also shown a willingness to not shoot when his team is getting crushed. I dislike generalizations, the facts are, sometimes your instincts betray you and very few, definitely not Kobe, were immune to their egos. Shaq for instance had MUCH greater iq imo. Kobe often struggled with knowing how to balance his creativity with his own selfishness. All part of the role i guess.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 04:38 PM
This. People far to often underestimate the amount of talent Jordan was playing with. I love when people talk about the Bulls beating the Jazz and saying it somehow tarnished Malone/Stockton. That Bulls team was so much better all around it is kinda amazing to me tha the Jazz were able to make it go 6 games. Obviously Jordan was the engine that made that team go but he had a ridiculous amount of talent alongside him to go along with a top 2 coach in the history of the game. If Jordan gets put with talent like LeBron has in Cleveland right now for his whole career he might have a championship or two maybe. Some people seem to think Jordan just beat everyone by himself but neglect the fact that he played alongside tremendous talent.

you cant win the Jordan argument lol. his fans will just say he made pippen and whoever else was on the team what they are, and Jordan will still get all the credit. Plus he still went undefeated at the biggest moment regardless.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 04:44 PM
Jordan doesn't have the highest basketball IQ in history, cmon. He has an excellent one, but the dude was a physical freak, and absolutely skilled off the charts.

Basketball IQ means all sorts of things, but there are reasons lesser athletes hang around the NBA. They are smarter than many of the better athletes in the league.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 04:48 PM
Jordan doesn't have the highest basketball IQ in history, cmon. He has an excellent one, but the dude was a physical freak, and absolutely skilled off the charts.

Basketball IQ means all sorts of things, but there are reasons lesser athletes hang around the NBA. They are smarter than many of the better athletes in the league.

haha kobe being one of them. Jordan and kobe both won titles while removed from their athletic primes, so I think your argument still goes for Jordan as well. They reinvented their games as the athleticism declined. Will be interesting to see how LeBron handles this in the few years to come.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 04:55 PM
haha kobe being one of them. Jordan and kobe both won titles while removed from their athletic primes, so I think your argument still goes for Jordan as well. They reinvented their games as the athleticism declined. Will be interesting to see how LeBron handles this in the few years to come.

meh on Kobe. His instincts overpowered his IQ plenty.

Even a Jordan in athletic decline was still more athletic than most the league though. And same goes for Kobe, and he had a great cast around him, as did Jordan.

In order for LeBron to win while in decline, he is going to need more help than he needed in his Miami days. Meaning, Love, and Irving, and the Cavs role players, need to develop into champion level players. Love/Irving have never won outside the last 2 years, and both were hurt in the playoffs. They are still learning how to win playoff games, and burning LeBron's years. But he chose this move, so he needs to figure it out if he wants another title. Unfortunately, winning is important (or how you win for me), and not every play is dealt the same hand. Some are given crappy help most their career, some average, some great. Can't help which one you get for your first 7 years.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 05:06 PM
meh on Kobe. His instincts overpowered his IQ plenty.

Even a Jordan in athletic decline was still more athletic than most the league though. And same goes for Kobe, and he had a great cast around him, as did Jordan.

In order for LeBron to win while in decline, he is going to need more help than he needed in his Miami days. Meaning, Love, and Irving, and the Cavs role players, need to develop into champion level players. Love/Irving have never won outside the last 2 years, and both were hurt in the playoffs. They are still learning how to win playoff games, and burning LeBron's years. But he chose this move, so he needs to figure it out if he wants another title. Unfortunately, winning is important (or how you win for me), and not every play is dealt the same hand. Some are given crappy help most their career, some average, some great. Can't help which one you get for your first 7 years.

Nah bro, the way Kobe could destroy a team from the elbow and post during his decline was poetic. Jordan and Kobe are the only gaurds I've ever seen that can dictate a game from the post and elbow without having a majority of ball handling duties. That speaks to mastery of footwork and a complicated offense, while putting everyone in position. All part of bball IQ. By the way I don't think 90% of players today could run the triangle. Too complicated for a bunch of supreme athletes that don't actually know the game.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2016, 05:14 PM
What is hilarious about it? That you can't use a stat to measure it? And that you actually have to watch games and know basketball to determine it?
While the character trait you are referencing certainly has value, at the end of the day it still manifests itself as part of the result. So basically just because your human eyes tell you Kobe is better because of this character trait, it means jack **** if it doesn't make him a more effective player overall. And he's not.

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 05:19 PM
While the character trait you are referencing certainly has value, at the end of the day it still manifests itself as part of the result. So basically just because your human eyes tell you Kobe is better because of this character trait, it means jack **** if it doesn't make him a more effective player overall. And he's not.

U bron fans are so mad brons mental psyche is as soft as a jello pudding cup.

U can have your criteria, as I have mine.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 05:21 PM
Nah bro, the way Kobe could destroy a team from the elbow and post during his decline was poetic. Jordan and Kobe are the only gaurds I've ever seen that can dictate a game from the post and elbow without having a majority of ball handling duties. That speaks to mastery of footwork and a complicated offense, while putting everyone in position. All part of bball IQ. By the way I don't think 90% of players today could run the triangle. Too complicated for a bunch of supreme athletes that don't actually know the game.

we get it, you are a Kobe guy. He just isn't as good as you are remembering.

The triangle is not that complicated, you just need the right pieces to run it. Ie, the right skillsets.

Jamiecballer
02-11-2016, 05:21 PM
Kobe one of the best basketball IQ ever? Am I reading this right? Did Iverson not play enough mins to qualify?

Basketball IQ is a large part of what separated Jordan from Kobe. It wasn't a strength by any means. Will, skill and arrogance were.

valade16
02-11-2016, 05:23 PM
valade, I can't even bother with you. Just take the L, you keep contradicting yourself and instead of accepting that, you're trying to come on top of everything. You said that Magic, Shaq, McHale and Bird never lost by 30, acted all smart when I asked a rhetorical question you didn't know the answer to and then make a post defending your original post using Magic, Shaq, McHale and Bird as players who have indeed lost by 30+. You just don't make sense and are as inconsistent as hell. I'm as consistent as they get, you're just not able to keep up with what I'm saying because you're offended for some odd reason, as if Lebron is your cousin or something.

You are consistent, ignorant when it comes to basketball. Everyone here has commented on it at this point.

Also, don't act like you knew the answer because you yourself said you didn't know about Clyde/Karl.

But more to the point, what was the point of your rhetorical question?

Seriously, your question was:

What other top 10-20-30 player besides Bron lost by 30 in the finals.

Seriously, if you knew the answer was 1/2 to 1/3 of the list what was the point of the question?

We all know the point was to point at Bron and go "look he sucks because he lost by 30 in the Finals"

And then you got clowned when it turned out a ton of other top players did as well.

Seriously, what point were you trying to make with that question?

Tony_Starks
02-11-2016, 05:26 PM
haha kobe being one of them. Jordan and kobe both won titles while removed from their athletic primes, so I think your argument still goes for Jordan as well. They reinvented their games as the athleticism declined. Will be interesting to see how LeBron handles this in the few years to come.

meh on Kobe. His instincts overpowered his IQ plenty.

Even a Jordan in athletic decline was still more athletic than most the league though. And same goes for Kobe, and he had a great cast around him, as did Jordan.

In order for LeBron to win while in decline, he is going to need more help than he needed in his Miami days. Meaning, Love, and Irving, and the Cavs role players, need to develop into champion level players. Love/Irving have never won outside the last 2 years, and both were hurt in the playoffs. They are still learning how to win playoff games, and burning LeBron's years. But he chose this move, so he needs to figure it out if he wants another title. Unfortunately, winning is important (or how you win for me), and not every play is dealt the same hand. Some are given crappy help most their career, some average, some great. Can't help which one you get for your first 7 years.

So you're basically already conceding yet another pass for Lebron and putting yet another inevitable finals beatdown on Kyrie and Love?

Aside from 3point shooting Lebron is still operating at a efficient, high level production wise. He's not jumping out the gym or freight training people anymore but he's still putting up 1st tier superstar/ mvp calliber numbers. If they lose it won't be because of his "decline."

Also if he was able to take Cleveland up 2-1 singlehandedly pulling a Iverson, logic would say that with a healthy Kyrie and Love he has at the very least a legitimate shot at beating the Warriors....despite what you may think of Kyrie/Love.

Like it or not there are no excuses for the guy this year if healthy. If he takes a L it will be another blemish.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 05:34 PM
So you're basically already conceding yet another pass for Lebron and putting yet another inevitable finals beatdown on Kyrie and Love?

Aside from 3point shooting Lebron is still operating at a efficient, high level production wise. He's not jumping out the gym or freight training people anymore but he's still putting up 1st tier superstar/ mvp calliber numbers. If they lose it won't be because of his "decline."

Also if he was able to take Cleveland up 2-1 singlehandedly pulling a Iverson, logic would say that with a healthy Kyrie and Love he has at the very least a legitimate shot at beating the Warriors....despite what you may think of Kyrie/Love.

Like it or not there are no excuses for the guy this year if healthy. If he takes a L it will be another blemish.

It's not a pass, I don't think he is good enough anymore, and would need a roster around him where he isn't the best player nightly. Ie, he basically needs his Gasol/Bynum now, or Kawhai, etc. I don't think Love/Irving are that.

I could be wrong, maybe he has another gear come playoff time. And of course he is still elite. But GS, and SA, are machines. GS is on pace to be arguably the best team ever for a season. Asking any other team to beat them is a tall task.

Do you really think Cleveland, even healthy, would be favored to beat either of those teams? I know they wouldn't...

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 05:37 PM
Of this list, outside Jordan (and maybe Bird), have any of these players won a ring when they weren't the best player on their team?

Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
Magic
KAJ

the answer (outside Jordan, and maybe Bird), is a resounding yes. LeBron has never, and will probably never, have that luxury. And we have already determined he ain't Jordan, and I don't see McHale, DJ, Parish, and company walking through that door to help..

He should have maximized his time in Miami more.

valade16
02-11-2016, 05:46 PM
Don't let NYKalltheway's list fool you. He says LeBron is 20-25 but in the "Best SF of All-Time" thread he listed 35 players that were better than Bron and a dozen that were arguable.

Among them were:

Better:
Dominique Wilkins
George Gervin
Jerry Lucas
Dolph Schayes
Bob Cousy
Rick Barry
Clyde Drexler
Elgin Baylor
Kevin McHale
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Walt Frazier

Arguably better:

Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Hal Greer
Tiny
James Worthy
Dave Bing
Paul Arizin
Billy Cunningham
Lenny Wilkens
Wes Unseld


So I wonder what happened between then and now where Bron moved up 10+ spots in his rankings?

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 05:51 PM
we get it, you are a Kobe guy. He just isn't as good as you are remembering.

The triangle is not that complicated, you just need the right pieces to run it. Ie, the right skillsets.

It's actually extremely complicated. I've been pursuing to run hybrids of it for our youth academies but our coaching staff refuse to work with it as it's too complicated even for them to set the players up in the right spot every time. And they teach the kids stuff like p&r, constant motion, double screes and whatnot :cool: You need either a very strong indoctrination of the system or players with great B-ball IQ.
Unless you use a more static triangle system which defeats the purpose of using it in the first place :D

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 05:56 PM
It's not a pass, I don't think he is good enough anymore, and would need a roster around him where he isn't the best player nightly. Ie, he basically needs his Gasol/Bynum now, or Kawhai, etc. I don't think Love/Irving are that.

I could be wrong, maybe he has another gear come playoff time. And of course he is still elite. But GS, and SA, are machines. GS is on pace to be arguably the best team ever for a season. Asking any other team to beat them is a tall task.

Do you really think Cleveland, even healthy, would be favored to beat either of those teams? I know they wouldn't...

Kyrie provides what your talking about. Some nights he is the best player on the floor. Some nights love gets hot and is the best player as well. And no I don't think they beat GS. Not because they don't have the talent, because they do. But because coach and GM lebron isn't good enough, and curry will outplay him

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 05:57 PM
It's actually extremely complicated. I've been pursuing to run hybrids of it for our youth academies but our coaching staff refuse to work with it as it's too complicated even for them to set the players up in the right spot every time. And they teach the kids stuff like p&r, constant motion, double screes and whatnot :cool: You need either a very strong indoctrination of the system or players with great B-ball IQ.
Unless you use a more static triangle system which defeats the purpose of using it in the first place :D

It's not for kids, you need to have been around the game a long time to understand the triangle. Of which every NBA player has....

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 05:58 PM
Don't let NYKalltheway's list fool you. He says LeBron is 20-25 but in the "Best SF of All-Time" thread he listed 35 players that were better than Bron and a dozen that were arguable.

So I wonder what happened between then and now where Bron moved up 10+ spots in his rankings?

You're joking right?

Nah you're not. You just have issues with reading and comprehension, I'm not sure if that's a reason for pity or a "back to school" comment would be more relevant.


Now let's see. I kept saying that I have Lebron in my top 40. I "moved" him apparently because I said:

Level 1: Michael Jordan. Probably on his own (GOAT?)
Level 2: Magic, Bird, Kareem (timeless greatness)
Level 3a: Russell, Wilt, West, Robertson (old schoo greatnessl)
Level 3b: Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Dr J (modern and post-modern greatness)
Level 4: this has soooo many names I don't wanna start mentioning them as I'm gonna forget a lot. Could find up to 20 names here for sure. Going from Baylor & Havlicek (old school) to Isiah Thomas, Garnett & Kobe. Some I obviously rate higher than others within this category but still, it's hard to objectively rank most of these guys.
Level 5: arguably another 20-25 names. Which includes Lebron.

Level 1-3: 12 players
Level 4: ¬20 players
so far it's ¬32 playrs
Level 5: WHERE I SAY LEBRON BELONGS, has 20-25 other names in. Which means top50-55.

So what the **** are you even talking about?

valade16
02-11-2016, 06:04 PM
^ You're right I misread 20-25.

... But that's even worse. You have LeBron ranked somewhere between 40-55.

There's honestly nothing I even to say to demonstrate your lack of basketball understanding.

This speaks for itself.

Hawkeye15
02-11-2016, 06:04 PM
Kyrie provides what your talking about. Some nights he is the best player on the floor. Some nights love gets hot and is the best player as well. And no I don't think they beat GS. Not because they don't have the talent, because they do. But because coach and GM lebron isn't good enough, and curry will outplay him

Kyrie is a ball dominant scorer, nothing else. He hasn't progressed like I thought he would. And they don't use Love right anyways, so his impact isn't what it should or could be.

This years GS is the best team in the past 20 years. For plenty of reasons.

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 06:04 PM
It's not for kids, you need to have been around the game a long time to understand the triangle. Of which every NBA player has....

NBA players now are much younger and lack the basics, so I think that argument is sort of being reversed, right?
By kids, I mean 15-18 year olds though who have been in organized team basketball training sessions since they were 6 to 9 years old, depending on situations.

NBA players can be 18 now and they don't really get any basketball education as they use their innate physical abilities and their improved abilities to shoot. They don't know that much about where to stand during an offensive set up or in defense. And if you're a top pick and land in a crap situation, you're most likely gonna be keep doing what you did so far and rarely improve much of your game unless you start getting benched.
Without the college influence, most NBA players lack this understanding. Their NBA coaches, in almost every situation, will pressure for instant results and won't teach them new stuff. They'll just expect a good performance.

NYKalltheway
02-11-2016, 06:05 PM
^ You're right I misread 20-25.

... But that's even worse. You have LeBron ranked somewhere between 40-55.

There's honestly nothing I even to say to demonstrate your lack of basketball understanding.

This speaks for itself.

No I don't. I have Lebron at top 40. How many times do I have to say that? There's just some players that I don't think are that far from him and could be argued over him or others who might feature above them.

valade16
02-11-2016, 06:08 PM
No I don't. I have Lebron at top 40. How many times do I have to say that? There's just some players that I don't think are that far from him and could be argued over him or others who might feature above them.

That's not much better. But comparing your SF thread post when you listed 35 guys better than LeBron he falls somewhere between 36-40.

Again, that speaks for itself...

Jayb587
02-11-2016, 07:24 PM
NBA players now are much younger and lack the basics, so I think that argument is sort of being reversed, right?
By kids, I mean 15-18 year olds though who have been in organized team basketball training sessions since they were 6 to 9 years old, depending on situations.

NBA players can be 18 now and they don't really get any basketball education as they use their innate physical abilities and their improved abilities to shoot. They don't know that much about where to stand during an offensive set up or in defense. And if you're a top pick and land in a crap situation, you're most likely gonna be keep doing what you did so far and rarely improve much of your game unless you start getting benched.
Without the college influence, most NBA players lack this understanding. Their NBA coaches, in almost every situation, will pressure for instant results and won't teach them new stuff. They'll just expect a good performance.

Great points. I question hawkeyes own basketball IQ for thinking the triangle is easy to learn. I expect that from a lebron fan though. A player who still runs the same drive and kick, stand around and go 1on1 offense from high school.

The impact of lebron not having someone to teach him the game can't be underestimated. He needs to wake up and realize he doesn't know it all and get the cavs to hire a basketball mind to help him like Riley and Wade did.

Tony_Starks
02-11-2016, 07:49 PM
Kyrie provides what your talking about. Some nights he is the best player on the floor. Some nights love gets hot and is the best player as well. And no I don't think they beat GS. Not because they don't have the talent, because they do. But because coach and GM lebron isn't good enough, and curry will outplay him

Kyrie is a ball dominant scorer, nothing else. He hasn't progressed like I thought he would. And they don't use Love right anyways, so his impact isn't what it should or could be.

This years GS is the best team in the past 20 years. For plenty of reasons.

You really really discount Kyrie. He can not only be the best player on their team at times but some nights he's the best player on the floor period. The amount of pressure he takes off Lebron and puts on the defense is huge and he's not even fully "back" yet.

I don't think they'll beat the Warriors this year either. It won't have anything to do with Kyrie/Love tho, they will do their part.

What its going to boil down to is which superstar comes up bigger and my money is on Steph over Lebron.

Steph is head and shoulders the best in the game right now and that's the difference.

CardinalRed24
02-11-2016, 07:57 PM
Need to see how the rest of his career plays out

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Shaquile O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olujuwon
Karl Malone
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor

With a strong finish to his career I could see him placing somewhere between 6 to 10th place. Another title or two would go a long way.

CHANGO
02-11-2016, 10:25 PM
Magic+Kareem+ a lot of good other players mixed in (Worthy+norman+cooper+wilkes) 5 titles in 10 or so years
Bird+Mchale+Parish+ others like DJ and Maxwell mixed in 3 titles in 9ish years or so
Jordan+Pippen+Grant/Rodman and Phil 6 titles in 9 or so years
Kobe+Shaq+Phil 3 rings in 8 years
Kobe+Odom/Gasol/Bynum frontcourt+ Phil 2 rings in 4 years
Lebron+wade+bosh 2 rings in 4 years


Don't have the time to look at the veracity of this numbers. But, just using simply logic you can see something very impressive.

Magic = 5/10 = 50%
Bird = 3/9 = 33%
Jordan = 6/9 = 67%
Kobe with Shaq = 3/8 = 38%
Kobe with Gasol = 2/4 = 50%
Lebron with Wade = 2/4 = 50%

Lebron winning % is one of the best in that pack of great players. If we look at Duncan for example, that championship % is very low. This just shows the flawed logic behind the "2 ringz on 6 tries brahh he's a loser" clearly when he had the talent he did the best he could to win championships. Even better than Kobe with Shaq.

Players getting passes for not reaching the Finals is just dumb. You have a player going to a team and instantly getting to the Finals 4 times in 4 tries, winning 2 of them but you criticize him for losing 2.

On the other side you have a player going to the finals 4 times on 8 years, and winning 3 of the 4 Finals. All of the sudden the narrative is "3 ringzzz on 4 tries brahhh he's a winner" what about the other 4 years they didn't reach the Finals? We gonna give him a pass for that? :eyebrow:

LA_Raiders
02-11-2016, 10:28 PM
Lol, LeFlop is not even top 10

CHANGO
02-11-2016, 10:31 PM
You really really discount Kyrie. He can not only be the best player on their team at times but some nights he's the best player on the floor period. The amount of pressure he takes off Lebron and puts on the defense is huge and he's not even fully "back" yet.

I don't think they'll beat the Warriors this year either. It won't have anything to do with Kyrie/Love tho, they will do their part.

What its going to boil down to is which superstar comes up bigger and my money is on Steph over Lebron.

Steph is head and shoulders the best in the game right now and that's the difference.


This logic is so flawed.

You are totally underestimating the teams here. Kyrie and Love didn't do "their part" on the 2 regular season games against the Warriors, so we'll see if on the possible Finals matchup they'll do that.

Second. Where was Curry last Finals when Lebron was completely dominating? Exactly, Curry was just taking a nap while players like Iggy, Green, Livingston etc... made great plays. Sadly with this Warriors team, even if Lebron outplays Curry there's the possibility of the Warriors winning the series and people saying "Lebron just lost another one, Curry better brah" when clearly he was the best player on the floor almost every night, just like 2014 and 2015 Finals.

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 05:36 AM
Don't have the time to look at the veracity of this numbers. But, just using simply logic you can see something very impressive.

Magic = 5/10 = 50%
Bird = 3/9 = 33%
Jordan = 6/9 = 67%
Kobe with Shaq = 3/8 = 38%
Kobe with Gasol = 2/4 = 50%
Lebron with Wade = 2/4 = 50%

Lebron winning % is one of the best in that pack of great players. If we look at Duncan for example, that championship % is very low. This just shows the flawed logic behind the "2 ringz on 6 tries brahh he's a loser" clearly when he had the talent he did the best he could to win championships. Even better than Kobe with Shaq.

Players getting passes for not reaching the Finals is just dumb. You have a player going to a team and instantly getting to the Finals 4 times in 4 tries, winning 2 of them but you criticize him for losing 2.

On the other side you have a player going to the finals 4 times on 8 years, and winning 3 of the 4 Finals. All of the sudden the narrative is "3 ringzzz on 4 tries brahhh he's a winner" what about the other 4 years they didn't reach the Finals? We gonna give him a pass for that? :eyebrow:

Lebron is 2/6 in the finals though, not 2/4.
Why inflate Magic and Bird's numbers?

Jordan and Pippen 9 years? What's that? Jordan was out for 1993-94, and came back just in time for playoffs 1995.
Pippen became an integral part of the Bulls in 1989-90, in his first two years he was just a role player.
That's essentially 6 in 7.5 years, if you wanna count MJ's 1994-5 limited presence (should be 7.13 but whatever). I urge you to recalculate...

Kobe with Gasol is 2/5 by your logic, not 2/4, unless you forgotten Pau Gasol's presence in the 2008 finals, one of just 2 guys in the series averaging a double double. Gasol came in February 2008 and participated in 3 finals, won 2 and then left at the end of the 2013-14 season. Which means: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 playoffs. Kobe missed the next two due to injuries but I don't think they'd win anyway.

But what you're doing is nitpicking. Lebron stayed with a top 5 and top 10-15 player for 4 years and won 2, only one was a dominant win, the other was sort of a fluke, but regardless that's 2 rings. Of 2 top 5 league players teaming up with a top 15 player and a bunch of great veterans. In the past, you'd see better teams than those Heat teams, but at least it wasn't unbalanced in comparison to the rest of the league. Or at least compared to the other contending teams. And those guys were in their primes. So saying they won 50% while Magic and Bird won 33% and 50%, ignoring that they were competing against each other and had injuries to deal with as well as not including only their primes is really convenient.


Lebron by the Jordan/Magic/Bird logic has 2/10. And please don't tell me that he had superior competition than the other guys... Or that his teams, during those 4 years, weren't by far the #1 contender and anything other than a ring at the end of the season would have been an upset.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2016, 06:05 AM
Don't have the time to look at the veracity of this numbers. But, just using simply logic you can see something very impressive.

Magic = 5/10 = 50%
Bird = 3/9 = 33%
Jordan = 6/9 = 67%
Kobe with Shaq = 3/8 = 38%
Kobe with Gasol = 2/4 = 50%
Lebron with Wade = 2/4 = 50%

Lebron winning % is one of the best in that pack of great players. If we look at Duncan for example, that championship % is very low. This just shows the flawed logic behind the "2 ringz on 6 tries brahh he's a loser" clearly when he had the talent he did the best he could to win championships. Even better than Kobe with Shaq.

Players getting passes for not reaching the Finals is just dumb. You have a player going to a team and instantly getting to the Finals 4 times in 4 tries, winning 2 of them but you criticize him for losing 2.

On the other side you have a player going to the finals 4 times on 8 years, and winning 3 of the 4 Finals. All of the sudden the narrative is "3 ringzzz on 4 tries brahhh he's a winner" what about the other 4 years they didn't reach the Finals? We gonna give him a pass for that? :eyebrow:

Lol app its better if Lebron loses in the first round then the finals to most haters... That is legit what they were saying a couple months back.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2016, 09:34 AM
You really really discount Kyrie. He can not only be the best player on their team at times but some nights he's the best player on the floor period. The amount of pressure he takes off Lebron and puts on the defense is huge and he's not even fully "back" yet.

I don't think they'll beat the Warriors this year either. It won't have anything to do with Kyrie/Love tho, they will do their part.

What its going to boil down to is which superstar comes up bigger and my money is on Steph over Lebron.

Steph is head and shoulders the best in the game right now and that's the difference.


This logic is so flawed.

You are totally underestimating the teams here. Kyrie and Love didn't do "their part" on the 2 regular season games against the Warriors, so we'll see if on the possible Finals matchup they'll do that.

Second. Where was Curry last Finals when Lebron was completely dominating? Exactly, Curry was just taking a nap while players like Iggy, Green, Livingston etc... made great plays. Sadly with this Warriors team, even if Lebron outplays Curry there's the possibility of the Warriors winning the series and people saying "Lebron just lost another one, Curry better brah" when clearly he was the best player on the floor almost every night, just like 2014 and 2015 Finals.


1. What Kyrie and Love did in the regular season matchups is irrelevant. Neither were back to form yet, will be a different story in the Finals.

2. You do realize Steph is significantly better this season than he was last year right? If you don't think he's about to put on a complete show during the Finals and make it very clear who the FMVP is you are kidding yourself.

Lebron is not going to "outplay" him and lose admirably again.

Steph is about to dominate the Finals. You are right, his team is great, but I think you're still going to see quite a display from Steph this time around.

Munkeysuit
02-12-2016, 09:41 AM
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4.Bill Russell
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Larry Bird
7.Tim Duncan
8.Kobe Bryant
9.Shaquille Oneal
10.Lebron James

And this is coming from a HUGE Lebron James fan! listen guys, the key to judging Lebron is to accept his greatness, credit him with what he's earned and be fair with it. Try not to let any outside situations interfere with the overall picture (like the decision and all the media hype) take a long hard look at his credentials and compare them to the greatest the game has to offer.
It's so super hard to say he's surpassed Timmy at this point mostly because of what Timmy's achieved as a young player and still as an old player, let's not also forget he beat James twice in the Finals! It's also pretty hard to place him above Shaquille Oneal simply because of what Shaq meant to this league and how large his personality is, I mean he's still a huge part of this game down at TNT and is about to be immortalized with his own statue in LA! OH and let's not forget 4 rings!
I believe James can get there, but his ranking is just as mind boggling as Curry's #23 ranking, like WTH? haha it's pretty ridiculous to even talk about Steph even in the same breath as Chauncey Billups or even Steve Nash! but that's an entirely different post.

Munkeysuit
02-12-2016, 09:58 AM
1. What Kyrie and Love did in the regular season matchups is irrelevant. Neither were back to form yet, will be a different story in the Finals.

2. You do realize Steph is significantly better this season than he was last year right? If you don't think he's about to put on a complete show during the Finals and make it very clear who the FMVP is you are kidding yourself.

Lebron is not going to "outplay" him and lose admirably again.

Steph is about to dominate the Finals. You are right, his team is great, but I think you're still going to see quite a display from Steph this time around.

Steph doesn't dominate anything and won't dominate anything, I will admit they have the best chance at winning it all and he will be MVP, but he's not a dominating player at all, I think you are a bit fan boyish with those claims and not in the right state of mind to make a valid point based on this rant.
Curry is a great player, probably the best shooter off the dribble we've ever seen at the NBA rank, but this ranting like he obliterates opponents solo is kind of making me sick...let me put you in your place real quick buddy, Steph Curry on the Sixers won't make them a Finals bound team, but Lebron on the Sixers would...my point? Curry don't lift the level of play around his teammates, why did I make that point? because I don't want you to ever forget what makes the Warriors great...it's their balance of high IQ players that also happen to be very capable, unselfish and even keeled in pressure situations.
This alone "allows" Curry's freestyle play to be confident and in turn makes him pretty hard to guard because he's unpredictable while his teammates hold together the structure of the cage he's allowed to fly so freely within...all of this while Lebron James has to burden the load of delivering on a hype unseen by any athlete in the history of american sports, not even one will budge to allow him room for error.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-12-2016, 10:56 AM
1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4.Bill Russell
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Larry Bird
7.Tim Duncan
8.Kobe Bryant
9.Shaquille Oneal
10.Lebron James

And this is coming from a HUGE Lebron James fan! listen guys, the key to judging Lebron is to accept his greatness, credit him with what he's earned and be fair with it. Try not to let any outside situations interfere with the overall picture (like the decision and all the media hype) take a long hard look at his credentials and compare them to the greatest the game has to offer.
It's so super hard to say he's surpassed Timmy at this point mostly because of what Timmy's achieved as a young player and still as an old player, let's not also forget he beat James twice in the Finals! It's also pretty hard to place him above Shaquille Oneal simply because of what Shaq meant to this league and how large his personality is, I mean he's still a huge part of this game down at TNT and is about to be immortalized with his own statue in LA! OH and let's not forget 4 rings!
I believe James can get there, but his ranking is just as mind boggling as Curry's #23 ranking, like WTH? haha it's pretty ridiculous to even talk about Steph even in the same breath as Chauncey Billups or even Steve Nash! but that's an entirely different post.

I would move Magic, Kobe and Russell down while moving Shaq, Bird, Lebron, and KAJ up but your list is one of the better ones on PSD. I did not see Russell play so I can not comment on him as a player but it looks to me like you have the right guys in your top 10.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-12-2016, 11:01 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaq
7. Tim Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Bill Russell (just an educated guess for me)
10. Kobe Bryant

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 11:09 AM
Can people give legitimate arguments for Lebron ahead of:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Walt Frazier

Serious and basketball related arguments only please. And as less marketing and other non-basketball related stuff as possible.

SLY WILLIAMS
02-12-2016, 11:27 AM
Can people give legitimate arguments for Lebron ahead of:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Walt Frazier

Serious and basketball related arguments only please. And as less marketing and other non-basketball related stuff as possible.

I do not have time to go in to details but I will say in my mind from your list Shaq and Duncan should be ahead of Lebron. Kobe is close but Lebron has a slight edge. Hakeem and KG are very over rated on PSD in my opinion. Many of the players you posted were very good. I think Lebron's usage is the deciding factor over some of them. Lebron is definitely a better overall player than Isiah but if it was the last 3 minutes of a tight playoff game I'd rather have Isiah.

YAALREADYKNO
02-12-2016, 11:48 AM
Can people give legitimate arguments for Lebron ahead of:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Walt Frazier

Serious and basketball related arguments only please. And as less marketing and other non-basketball related stuff as possible.

He's no question better than everyone on that list other than Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq. Those guys are the ones who only have a real case against Lebron

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 12:17 PM
He's no question better than everyone on that list other than Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq. Those guys are the ones who only have a real case against Lebron

How is Kobe "no question" ahead of West, Oscar or Drexler?
How is Shaq "no question" ahead of Moses Malone?
How is Duncan "no question ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon?

and more...

If you can't argue, your opinion or lack of in depth knowledge of some of these players as something absolute and concrete doesn't really help that much.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 12:46 PM
Can people give legitimate arguments for Lebron ahead of:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Walt Frazier

Serious and basketball related arguments only please. And as less marketing and other non-basketball related stuff as possible.

haha, you are absolutely ridiculous dude. I keep reading your drivel regarding LeBron. I can tell you, that you are the 0.00001% that would have the Zeke or Garnett over LeBron for instance.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 12:47 PM
You really really discount Kyrie. He can not only be the best player on their team at times but some nights he's the best player on the floor period. The amount of pressure he takes off Lebron and puts on the defense is huge and he's not even fully "back" yet.

I don't think they'll beat the Warriors this year either. It won't have anything to do with Kyrie/Love tho, they will do their part.

What its going to boil down to is which superstar comes up bigger and my money is on Steph over Lebron.

Steph is head and shoulders the best in the game right now and that's the difference.

totally disagree.

nastynice
02-12-2016, 12:56 PM
Steph doesn't dominate anything and won't dominate anything, I will admit they have the best chance at winning it all and he will be MVP, but he's not a dominating player at all, I think you are a bit fan boyish with those claims and not in the right state of mind to make a valid point based on this rant.
Curry is a great player, probably the best shooter off the dribble we've ever seen at the NBA rank, but this ranting like he obliterates opponents solo is kind of making me sick...let me put you in your place real quick buddy, Steph Curry on the Sixers won't make them a Finals bound team, but Lebron on the Sixers would...my point? Curry don't lift the level of play around his teammates, why did I make that point? because I don't want you to ever forget what makes the Warriors great...it's their balance of high IQ players that also happen to be very capable, unselfish and even keeled in pressure situations.
This alone "allows" Curry's freestyle play to be confident and in turn makes him pretty hard to guard because he's unpredictable while his teammates hold together the structure of the cage he's allowed to fly so freely within...all of this while Lebron James has to burden the load of delivering on a hype unseen by any athlete in the history of american sports, not even one will budge to allow him room for error.

Curry isn't dominant and doesn't make his teammates better??
W
T
F
??

lmao

nastynice
02-12-2016, 12:58 PM
How is Kobe "no question" ahead of West, Oscar or Drexler?
How is Shaq "no question" ahead of Moses Malone?
How is Duncan "no question ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon?

and more...

If you can't argue, your opinion or lack of in depth knowledge of some of these players as something absolute and concrete doesn't really help that much.

Yea, that was pretty extreme, lol

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 01:16 PM
haha, you are absolutely ridiculous dude. I keep reading your drivel regarding LeBron. I can tell you, that you are the 0.00001% that would have the Zeke or Garnett over LeBron for instance.

that's usually the smarter bunch

YAALREADYKNO
02-12-2016, 01:36 PM
How is Kobe "no question" ahead of West, Oscar or Drexler?
How is Shaq "no question" ahead of Moses Malone?
How is Duncan "no question ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon?

and more...

If you can't argue, your opinion or lack of in depth knowledge of some of these players as something absolute and concrete doesn't really help that much.

Oscar put up great numbers never won anything until Kareem. West only won one championship.
Shaq was dominant and it wasn't that hard to see if you actually watched him in his prime.
Duncan has 3 finals MVP compared to Hakeem's 2. Best Shaq and Kobe in the playoffs.

Now you argue as to why all those guys you named are better than Lebron

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 01:43 PM
Oscar put up great numbers never won anything until Kareem. West only won one championship.
Shaq was dominant and it wasn't that hard to see if you actually watched him in his prime.
Duncan has 3 finals MVP compared to Hakeem's 2. Best Shaq and Kobe in the playoffs.

Now you argue as to why all those guys you named are better than Lebron

Lebron never won without Wade (top 3-5) and Bosh included (top 10-15). Do you even have a point here or just because you've been hearing about "Lebron's greatness" you decided to go along?

YAALREADYKNO
02-12-2016, 01:55 PM
Lebron never won without Wade (top 3-5) and Bosh included (top 10-15). Do you even have a point here or just because you've been hearing about "Lebron's greatness" you decided to go along?

And what did he do in Cleveland? Got them past a Pistons team who was still running the east and got them to the finals with illgauskas as his 2nd best player. I agree that Lebron at 3 was too high for him at this point in his career but for you to say he's not better than all those guys you just named is ridiculous.

YAALREADYKNO
02-12-2016, 01:56 PM
Colin cowherd just said that steph curry was a top 10-15 player of all time just because he's able to score 15 pts in 3 minutes and because little kids want to be like him lol

kdspurman
02-12-2016, 02:07 PM
Colin cowherd just said that steph curry was a top 10-15 player of all time just because he's able to score 15 pts in 3 minutes and because little kids want to be like him lol

That guy is a nut... that logic is just terrible lol

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 02:40 PM
that's usually the smarter bunch

Not really. I don't see any of them working in the NBA. Ever.

So a guy with 4 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's, and all the NBA teams, defensive teams, and accolades galore, is barely top 40. But a **** load of players you listed, who have nothing compared to LeBron, are better.

Gotcha. There is no way, outside your personal perspective (because there is no metric alive that supports your opinion, nor basketball player or coach), who agrees with your ranking of LeBron.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 02:42 PM
Lebron never won without Wade (top 3-5) and Bosh included (top 10-15). Do you even have a point here or just because you've been hearing about "Lebron's greatness" you decided to go along?

Did Bird win without McHale/DJ (who you claimed is amazing)/Parish/Walton/Ainge?
Did Magic win without Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Coop?
Did MJ win without Pippen/Grant/Rodman/shooters galore?
Did Russell win without a handful of HOF'ers?
Did Kobe win without Shaq/Gasol/Bynum?

Did you need LeBron to lead Mo Williams as his 2nd best player to a championship? Aint nobody in history doing that bud

Jayb587
02-12-2016, 03:19 PM
Did Bird win without McHale/DJ (who you claimed is amazing)/Parish/Walton/Ainge?
Did Magic win without Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Coop?
Did MJ win without Pippen/Grant/Rodman/shooters galore?
Did Russell win without a handful of HOF'ers?
Did Kobe win without Shaq/Gasol/Bynum?

Did you need LeBron to lead Mo Williams as his 2nd best player to a championship? Aint nobody in history doing that bud

I get your point, but lets stop adding Bynum in with these other players LOLOLOLOL. he's a bum.

FraziersKnicks
02-12-2016, 04:05 PM
Can people give legitimate arguments for Lebron ahead of:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Clyde Drexler
Moses Malone
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Walt Frazier

Serious and basketball related arguments only please. And as less marketing and other non-basketball related stuff as possible.

I would love to see your argument for all of these guys not named Timmy and Shaq.

Pick any one of those guys and I'll challenge your argument.

I'll be waiting.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 05:12 PM
I get your point, but lets stop adding Bynum in with these other players LOLOLOLOL. he's a bum.

Bynum/Gasol defending the paint=Lakers win
Bynum hurt, Gasol left to be your paint protector=Celtics win

He was a huge presence. The Gasol/Bynum/Odom rotation gave you so much size it absolutely made your defense a different animal.

Hawkeye15
02-12-2016, 05:13 PM
I would love to see your argument for all of these guys not named Timmy and Shaq.

Pick any one of those guys and I'll challenge your argument.

I'll be waiting.

you will be hitting your head against a wall. Go check out the SF thread if you want to read that crap

NYKalltheway
02-12-2016, 07:30 PM
Not really. I don't see any of them working in the NBA. Ever.

So a guy with 4 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's, and all the NBA teams, defensive teams, and accolades galore, is barely top 40. But a **** load of players you listed, who have nothing compared to LeBron, are better.

Gotcha. There is no way, outside your personal perspective (because there is no metric alive that supports your opinion, nor basketball player or coach), who agrees with your ranking of LeBron.

What do accolades have to do with anything?

Is George Mikan a top 10 player in your opinion?

all-NBA (BAA) 1st in every year he played
appeared in all all-star games that existed during his career
5 rings
#1 in defensive win shares almost every season
x3 scoring champion of the league
x3 times the leader in offensive win shares
once a rebounding king of the league (twice led the league in rpg)

OOOHHHH!!! ACCOLADES! Top 5 player ever. Right?

Jayb587
02-12-2016, 08:19 PM
Bynum/Gasol defending the paint=Lakers win
Bynum hurt, Gasol left to be your paint protector=Celtics win

He was a huge presence. The Gasol/Bynum/Odom rotation gave you so much size it absolutely made your defense a different animal.

He had his role, 25 min a game 7poibnts 5 boards and 1 block.. Your putting him in the company of some of the greatest role players in history. Stop it.

CHANGO
02-13-2016, 02:08 AM
1. What Kyrie and Love did in the regular season matchups is irrelevant. Neither were back to form yet, will be a different story in the Finals.

2. You do realize Steph is significantly better this season than he was last year right? If you don't think he's about to put on a complete show during the Finals and make it very clear who the FMVP is you are kidding yourself.

Lebron is not going to "outplay" him and lose admirably again.

Steph is about to dominate the Finals. You are right, his team is great, but I think you're still going to see quite a display from Steph this time around.

I wasn't arguing that. I agree that this is a different Steph, more confident and more aggresive looking for his shot. He was too passive on the Finals.

My point is, that you can't say the result will come down to whoever team leader outplays the other when it was already proven that it's a team game and not an individual game. Lebron outplayed Curry last Finals and he still lost.

CHANGO
02-13-2016, 02:12 AM
Lebron is 2/6 in the finals though, not 2/4.
Why inflate Magic and Bird's numbers?

Jordan and Pippen 9 years? What's that? Jordan was out for 1993-94, and came back just in time for playoffs 1995.
Pippen became an integral part of the Bulls in 1989-90, in his first two years he was just a role player.
That's essentially 6 in 7.5 years, if you wanna count MJ's 1994-5 limited presence (should be 7.13 but whatever). I urge you to recalculate...

Kobe with Gasol is 2/5 by your logic, not 2/4, unless you forgotten Pau Gasol's presence in the 2008 finals, one of just 2 guys in the series averaging a double double. Gasol came in February 2008 and participated in 3 finals, won 2 and then left at the end of the 2013-14 season. Which means: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 playoffs. Kobe missed the next two due to injuries but I don't think they'd win anyway.

But what you're doing is nitpicking. Lebron stayed with a top 5 and top 10-15 player for 4 years and won 2, only one was a dominant win, the other was sort of a fluke, but regardless that's 2 rings. Of 2 top 5 league players teaming up with a top 15 player and a bunch of great veterans. In the past, you'd see better teams than those Heat teams, but at least it wasn't unbalanced in comparison to the rest of the league. Or at least compared to the other contending teams. And those guys were in their primes. So saying they won 50% while Magic and Bird won 33% and 50%, ignoring that they were competing against each other and had injuries to deal with as well as not including only their primes is really convenient.


Lebron by the Jordan/Magic/Bird logic has 2/10. And please don't tell me that he had superior competition than the other guys... Or that his teams, during those 4 years, weren't by far the #1 contender and anything other than a ring at the end of the season would have been an upset.

You are the one that needs to re-read my post again. Especially the first sentence. You can't say Lebron is 2/6 when we are talking about top players getting the help they needed to win. Kobe had it with Shaq and Paul, Bird had it, MJ had it with Pippen and co. Who Lebron had on 2007 against that incredible Spurs squad? Big Z? Hughes? And are we really going to count last year's Finals when he was playing with ****ing JR Smith as his second fiddle? That's why the number was 2/4.

Jayb587
02-13-2016, 02:44 AM
You are the one that needs to re-read my post again. Especially the first sentence. You can't say Lebron is 2/6 when we are talking about top players getting the help they needed to win. Kobe had it with Shaq and Paul, Bird had it, MJ had it with Pippen and co. Who Lebron had on 2007 against that incredible Spurs squad? Big Z? Hughes? And are we really going to count last year's Finals when he was playing with ****ing JR Smith as his second fiddle? That's why the number was 2/4.

Lol I swaer u lebron fans are amazing. You tell us how great he is for carrying bad teams to the playoffs then how the finals doesn't count. Did he play 1on5 to reach the finals lmao. Give me a break. That cavs team around lebron played some of the greatest defense I've ever seen. All lebron had to do was score the points. Which he didn't do effectively. Give it a rest.

Bostonjorge
02-13-2016, 03:03 AM
Can someone explain to me why Lebron can't beat teams with 50 wins or more in the playoffs?

Pistons
Spurs
Boston
Orlando
Boston
Dallas
Spurs
Golden state

That's 8 teams with 50 wins or more that took out Lebron. The problem here is he has lost to more 50 win teams then his team has eliminated. If getting great numbers on a bad team still makes you only borderline elite , shouldn't only eliminating those same bad teams make you a borderline superstar?

Jayb587
02-13-2016, 03:11 AM
Can someone explain to me why Lebron can't beat teams with 50 wins or more in the playoffs?

Pistons
Spurs
Boston
Orlando
Boston
Dallas
Spurs
Golden state

That's 8 teams with 50 wins or more that took out Lebron. The problem here is he has lost to more 50 win teams then his team has eliminated. If getting great numbers on a bad team still makes you only borderline elite , shouldn't only eliminating those same bad teams make you a borderline superstar?

His style of play lends to great individual numbers but not great actual team play against the best teams. That's why. And being passive passing the ball all damn game wont beat the best teams.

nastynice
02-13-2016, 03:39 AM
His style of play lends to great individual numbers but not great actual team play against the best teams. That's why. And being passive passing the ball all damn game wont beat the best teams.

There is something really odd about lebron. He makes bad and average players much better, he makes good players much worse. I don't really understand it, it's definitely a strange thing. If I had lebron and were to build a team around him, I wouldn't even know how to approach it. I think he needs just ONE superstar teammate, and the rest high quality role players. This big 3 formula isn't good for him, he's just naturally too dominant (aka too good, so that's a compliment) to allow two other big time players to shine. But he's too mentally weak to carry a team SINGLE HANDEDLY.(come playoff time). I think just one superstar with him is the right formula.