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5ass
02-08-2016, 11:50 PM
Rumours of the Magic listening to offers. What would you give up? What do you think of him and his value? Where do you think he ranks among SFs, and what do you think his ceiling is?

I like him, but Skiles isn't using him as he should be. His USG% is at a career low 19.1% even though he's shown he can be efficient with a higher USG%. The amount of touches he gets is an issue. Harris has done a fine job adjusting to skiles' system. He improved defensively, improved his rebounding, and improved his passing. He's a much improved player since he came to the league. I think you put him in Toronto (instead of caroll) and he's a 17-7-3 player with decent defense. I think he's capable of that and he's 23 years old and has improved every year. Work ethic and character is what you want from a professional. They call him "all business". His shooting is on the verge of becoming consistent, and I think he can be a top 5-10 SF in the league when it does, but I want to see what others think.

Shammyguy3
02-09-2016, 12:03 AM
anything not named Jimmy Butler honestly from the Bulls' perspective

5ass
02-09-2016, 12:23 AM
anything not named Jimmy Butler honestly from the Bulls' perspective

Has to be a third team IMO. Nothing I'd want from the Bulls. Ok, I'd like Taj, but he's too old for our core and is about to be a FA. I think we'd need more, but then we're not looking to trade quality for quantity. I think we need a 4/5 who can play solid defense and space the floor or play great defense and not space the floor. I hope for someone like Capela, but I think he has more value (especially to Morey) because he's on a rookie deal.

Corey
02-09-2016, 01:27 AM
Celtics could put together a nice package

*Silver&Black*
02-09-2016, 01:35 AM
Magic still want Millsap? Hawks should go young with Schroder, and Harris would be a good piece.

5ass
02-09-2016, 01:40 AM
Magic still want Millsap? Hawks should go young with Schroder, and Harris would be a good piece.

This would be a tempting offer.

Stunner
02-09-2016, 03:12 AM
Read a report they were looking for experience for the roster in return

eso
02-09-2016, 04:51 AM
Jordan Clarkson and Brandon Bass??

5ass
02-09-2016, 05:10 AM
Read a report they were looking for experience for the roster in return

But Hennigan has repeatedly said he wont sacrifice long term potential for short term gain. He'd make a trade for a vet, but probably a young vet (26-28).

5ass
02-09-2016, 05:42 AM
Celtics could put together a nice package

Yeah they have a lot of assets. Personally, i'd want Crowder+Amir. That way magic improve their rim protection with Amir. Crowder improves our shooting, perimeter defense and gives us insurance in case Fournier gets too overpaid.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-09-2016, 09:35 AM
Bucks shouldn't of traded him.

Corey
02-09-2016, 10:08 AM
Yeah they have a lot of assets. Personally, i'd want Crowder+Amir. That way magic improve their rim protection with Amir. Crowder improves our shooting, perimeter defense and gives us insurance in case Fournier gets too overpaid.

Amir has a 10m option at the end of the year, so he's viewed as expiring for a lot of people.

Im sure Crowder would be the top choice in a package coming back for you guy, but im not sure the Celtics see the upside in swapping the two players. Crowder is two years older, but he's basically matching Harris' production offensively, and he's doing it more efficiently.

Also, Crowder just signed a nice deal through 2020 where he's getting paid an average of 7mil per year. That alone has a ton of value

Aleksandar
02-09-2016, 11:02 AM
I wouldn't trade Crowder if I was Boston.

Vinylman
02-09-2016, 11:26 AM
real good player but his 3pt shooting has regressed this year after a huge improvement last year...

If he was still shooting around 36-37% from 3 he could command quite a bit...

I do think that Orlando is smart to start converting these young guys into solid vets...

LanceUpperCut
02-09-2016, 11:58 AM
He would fit well on the Raps but the upgrade over Carroll isn't big enough to give up the assets they would want. He also would probably get even less touches then in Orlando, I love the Raps team this year but sharing the ball is not their strong point.

hugepatsfan
02-09-2016, 01:06 PM
Yeah they have a lot of assets. Personally, i'd want Crowder+Amir. That way magic improve their rim protection with Amir. Crowder improves our shooting, perimeter defense and gives us insurance in case Fournier gets too overpaid.

I think that's pretty fair trade from an on-court perspective. Harris is better than Crowder and probably has more room to grow so you throw in another solid rotational player. But other things factored in, I wouldn't even consider it from a BOS perspective. Crowder is 25 to Harris' 23 so it's not like you factor in any decline with either. Crowder is signed for this year and 4 more at HALF the rate of Harris. Even though I'd take Harris now and think he has more room to grow as I said before, I don't think the difference in them as players comes even close to the salary difference. Then there's also the intangible value of Crowder just being a huge part of the toughness and identity our team is establishing and an overall strong part of our lockeroom.

S.L.ugger
02-09-2016, 01:54 PM
The Pistons should come knocking.

xxplayerxx23
02-09-2016, 01:55 PM
Affalo + :p

xxplayerxx23
02-09-2016, 01:56 PM
Or Lopez lol

5ass
02-09-2016, 02:55 PM
Amir has a 10m option at the end of the year, so he's viewed as expiring for a lot of people.

Im sure Crowder would be the top choice in a package coming back for you guy, but im not sure the Celtics see the upside in swapping the two players. Crowder is two years older, but he's basically matching Harris' production offensively, and he's doing it more efficiently.

Also, Crowder just signed a nice deal through 2020 where he's getting paid an average of 7mil per year. That alone has a ton of value

Except Harris isn't being used as he should be to maximize his efficiency. That's fine, because it will help him in the long run, but it doesn't help his current stats. He's shooting a career high in 3pA rate for example even though he's never been a great shooter. I think 25 yr old Harris would be a huge upgrade over 25 yr old Crowder. I think there's some untapped potential with him, and think there's a solid chance he breaks out into an all star.

5ass
02-09-2016, 03:00 PM
I think that's pretty fair trade from an on-court perspective. Harris is better than Crowder and probably has more room to grow so you throw in another solid rotational player. But other things factored in, I wouldn't even consider it from a BOS perspective. Crowder is 25 to Harris' 23 so it's not like you factor in any decline with either. Crowder is signed for this year and 4 more at HALF the rate of Harris. Even though I'd take Harris now and think he has more room to grow as I said before, I don't think the difference in them as players comes even close to the salary difference. Then there's also the intangible value of Crowder just being a huge part of the toughness and identity our team is establishing and an overall strong part of our lockeroom.

Well the Celtics would need to make a decision on if they want to take a risk on a guy that could be their second best player. Yes, Crowder has a good contract, but in the end he's still a role player. Whether he's getting paid 7mill or 10 mill, it's not really a huge difference that it makes him super valuable.

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
02-09-2016, 03:33 PM
I deff would not be against that Harris for milsap idea ... I also wouldn't be suprised of we used Harris a deal to atl for teague or horford.

Really would like WCS from the kings

I like Harris I just feel with guys like aaron Gordon and Mario turning corners, Harris has lost his stay here and becomes a trade asset

IndyRealist
02-09-2016, 04:11 PM
I think that's pretty fair trade from an on-court perspective. Harris is better than Crowder and probably has more room to grow so you throw in another solid rotational player. But other things factored in, I wouldn't even consider it from a BOS perspective. Crowder is 25 to Harris' 23 so it's not like you factor in any decline with either. Crowder is signed for this year and 4 more at HALF the rate of Harris. Even though I'd take Harris now and think he has more room to grow as I said before, I don't think the difference in them as players comes even close to the salary difference. Then there's also the intangible value of Crowder just being a huge part of the toughness and identity our team is establishing and an overall strong part of our lockeroom.

What am I missing here? From my prospective Crowder is better than Harris in every way. Upside? Size?

5ass
02-09-2016, 04:28 PM
What am I missing here? From my prospective Crowder is better than Harris in every way. Upside? Size?

Harris is a better scorer. Upside being two years younger. Think of where Crowder was two years ago.

JLynn943
02-09-2016, 04:29 PM
Something involving Rudy Gay I guess.

5ass
02-09-2016, 04:34 PM
Something involving Rudy Gay I guess.

I prefer Tobias for sure. Collison+Koufos might make sense, but I don't think its enough.

IndyRealist
02-09-2016, 04:44 PM
Harris is a better scorer. Upside being two years younger. Think of where Crowder was two years ago.

But he's not a better scorer. Not in per game, per minute, or percentages. He -might- become better, but he might not. And Crowder is a better two way player, everyone seems to agree on that.

If you think Harris is only going to get better and be a top 10 at his position, you probably make the trade. But you don't trade "better right now" PLUS assets for "might be better in two years, and cost a lot more money".

5ass
02-09-2016, 04:50 PM
But he's not a better scorer. Not in per game, per minute, or percentages. He -might- become better, but he might not. And Crowder is a better two way player, everyone seems to agree on that.

If you think Harris is only going to get better and be a top 10 at his position, you probably make the trade. But you don't trade "better right now" PLUS assets for "might be better in two years, and cost a lot more money".

Sure because of his role. He dropped 17 PPG last year on 55% TS at age 22. Can't fault him for not getting his touches this year. He definitely didn't regress. Tobias has shown us he can score since he was a 19 yr old. Also he's been improving literally every off season, why wouldn't I bet n him developing more? Overall I think they're about the same level today, but I expect Harris' shooting to become more consistent. If he literally does JUST that and gets his touches he can be a top 10 SF.

Green_Monster
02-09-2016, 04:54 PM
Harris is a better scorer. Upside being two years younger. Think of where Crowder was two years ago.

Crowder is two years older, but Harris has been in the NBA for a year longer than him.

Two years ago Crowder was playing half the minutes he is now.

5ass
02-09-2016, 05:01 PM
Crowder is two years older, but Harris has been in the NBA for a year longer than him.

Two years ago Crowder was playing half the minutes he is now.

But Crowder improved his shooting big time this year shooting a career high 35%, and honestly he hasn't proven to be a great shooter yet. No reason to think Tobias can't shoot atleast the same 3pt% 2 years from now.

JLynn943
02-09-2016, 05:08 PM
I prefer Tobias for sure. Collison+Koufos might make sense, but I don't think its enough.

I definitely wouldn't add much to Gay in a trade for Harris unless we're getting more than just Harris. I don't think there's too much of a difference between Gay and what Harris can be. Gay has proven in Sacramento that he can be a go-to scorer and do it more efficiently than he's done before. Kings have other players we could put in the trade for sure - Koufos, Collison, McLemore, Belinelli, Curry, Butler... they're all movable. I just wouldn't put in the better ones without getting something back like Fournier (who seems to be odd man out).

IndyRealist
02-09-2016, 05:17 PM
Sure because of his role. He dropped 17 PPG last year on 55% TS at age 22. Can't fault him for not getting his touches this year. He definitely didn't regress. Tobias has shown us he can score since he was a 19 yr old. Also he's been improving literally every off season, why wouldn't I bet n him developing more? Overall I think they're about the same level today, but I expect Harris' shooting to become more consistent. If he literally does JUST that and gets his touches he can be a top 10 SF.

I can buy that. I'll still take the cheaper, marginally more efficient two way player though. Especially on the Celtics.

5ass
02-09-2016, 05:36 PM
I can buy that. I'll still take the cheaper, marginally more efficient two way player though. Especially on the Celtics.

Why do you say especially on the Celtics? I get he's a good fit for their system, but I was thinking the Celtics could use an upgrade in scoring, and I really think Tobias is a 20ppg player in his prime. He would be the Celtics second best scorer if he was traded tomorrow IMO. To me they do what is necessary for them, they add a player to raise their ceiling. For all we know he could break out into a Millsap-level player (really not that far fetched when you think about it). Also, Tobias isn't exactly a one way player, he's become average defensively, and he's literally won us a couple of games because of his defense. I'm not talking about just a clutch defensive play like when he blocked Okafor at the rim, I'm talking about an impact felt throughout a game. He does a fine job guarding most PFs and SFs, which makes him valuable in a league embracing small ball. He's not a tweener anymore, he's a versatile forward.

5ass
02-09-2016, 05:42 PM
I definitely wouldn't add much to Gay in a trade for Harris unless we're getting more than just Harris. I don't think there's too much of a difference between Gay and what Harris can be. Gay has proven in Sacramento that he can be a go-to scorer and do it more efficiently than he's done before. Kings have other players we could put in the trade for sure - Koufos, Collison, McLemore, Belinelli, Curry, Butler... they're all movable. I just wouldn't put in the better ones without getting something back like Fournier (who seems to be odd man out).

I don't think there's much difference between Gay and Tobias TODAY. I'm not a fan of Gay. There's a reason the Raps and Grizzlies dumped him and improved. He has improved since then, but I still think he's average role player. He's not even a good fit for us. This is just my opinion, maybe you'll find another magic fan that likes Gay and the trade, but for me its a no. And Fournier isn't a throw in he should have more value than Collison, McLemore, and Koufos (individually). I would give him up with Tobias for WCS and fillers though.

JLynn943
02-09-2016, 05:57 PM
I don't think there's much difference between Gay and Tobias TODAY. I'm not a fan of Gay. There's a reason the Raps and Grizzlies dumped him and improved. He has improved since then, but I still think he's average role player. He's not even a good fit for us. This is just my opinion, maybe you'll find another magic fan that likes Gay and the trade, but for me its a no. And Fournier isn't a throw in he should have more value than Collison, McLemore, and Koufos (individually). I would give him up with Tobias for WCS and fillers though.

Nothing about Gay is a role player imo. He's a second/third option who can at any point take over a game and score in any way. I've seen it game after game in Sacramento. You can rely on him, but you don't have to for him to be effective either way. He is a much, much better player than a lot of people realize, and it's the reason so many teams have expressed interest in him. I'd put him just outside the top 5 for SFs. Harris can be a better player probably, but he's not there yet. Obviously youth and upside factor into trades though, and I get that.

I love what we've gotten out of WCS. I don't think he's untouchable, but I'm very happy.

5ass
02-09-2016, 06:07 PM
Nothing about Gay is a role player imo. He's a second/third option who can at any point take over a game and score in any way. I've seen it game after game in Sacramento. You can rely on him, but you don't have to for him to be effective either way. He is a much, much better player than a lot of people realize, and it's the reason so many teams have expressed interest in him. I'd put him just outside the top 5 for SFs. Harris can be a better player probably, but he's not there yet. Obviously youth and upside factor into trades though, and I get that.

I love what we've gotten out of WCS. I don't think he's untouchable, but I'm very happy.

I also like WCS, and i do think the WCS gives you guys a better chance of winning today, and I think the value is fine. Upgrading to Harris and Fournier from WCS and Belineli most likely gets you to the play offs. Anyway, Gay is not really close to top 5 SF. Either way he's not far from Tobias.

Lbj
Kd
Leonard
George
Melo
Giannis
Hayward
Gallinari

Those 8 are clearly better IMO, after that I'd take Crowder, Gay and Tobias.

Stunner
02-09-2016, 06:29 PM
The Magic are reportedly "swinging for the fences," and are looking to make a major move at the trade deadline.
Atlanta, Boston, Milwaukee and the Los Angeles Clippers have been mentioned as potential trade partners for Orlando, with the Magic are reportedly looking to land a star-type player such as Greg Monroe, Jeff Teague, Al Horford, David Lee or Blake Griffin. Orlando could also look to clear some cap room in order to chase a big name free agent this offseason, but it needs to be said that these reports are currently just in the rumor stage.
Related: David Lee, Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Gre

mngopher35
02-09-2016, 06:34 PM
I have to think they can't be planning to pair Vucevic with Monroe...

5ass
02-09-2016, 06:34 PM
The Magic are reportedly "swinging for the fences," and are looking to make a major move at the trade deadline.
Atlanta, Boston, Milwaukee and the Los Angeles Clippers have been mentioned as potential trade partners for Orlando, with the Magic are reportedly looking to land a star-type player such as Greg Monroe, Jeff Teague, Al Horford, David Lee or Blake Griffin. Orlando could also look to clear some cap room in order to chase a big name free agent this offseason, but it needs to be said that these reports are currently just in the rumor stage.
Related: David Lee, Al Horford, Jeff Teague, Gre

If I was betting, I'd say no major trade happens. Greg Monroe? Lol, why if we have a better, cheaper, and younger player in Vucevic? Literally makes no sense, who comes up with these dumb rumours? Lee is a star now? Haha. This trade deadline is going to be as boring as last season, too many rumours and 99.9% won't happen.

Vee-Rex
02-09-2016, 06:48 PM
If I was betting, I'd say no major trade happens. Greg Monroe? Lol, why if we have a better, cheaper, and younger player in Vucevic? Literally makes no sense, who comes up with these dumb rumours? Lee is a star now? Haha. This trade deadline is going to be as boring as last season, too many rumours and 99.9% won't happen.

It'd be cool if you guys could put together a package with Harris and land Blake Griffin. Then some strong moves in free agency and you guys could be top 3 in the East next year.

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
02-09-2016, 06:52 PM
Blake would be great but he seems to like the big stage big market stuff so I wouldn think he would want to stay here in Orlando

kobe4thewinbang
02-09-2016, 07:01 PM
And yet Lakers didn't make an offer. Guess they're happy with Swaggy P.

5ass
02-09-2016, 07:03 PM
It'd be cool if you guys could put together a package with Harris and land Blake Griffin. Then some strong moves in free agency and you guys could be top 3 in the East next year.

Yeah athleticism would be crazy, but its very unlikely. Its going to have to be much more than Harris. Fournier and Vucevic would be part of the package, but I think that's enough that we don't have to give up any of our better prospects (Payton, Dipo, Gordon, Mario). I posted a trade scenario already a couple of weeks ago:

Clippers get Fournier, Tyreke Evans, Harris, NO pick 2016, Magic pick 2016, possibly future Lakers pick (through Magic).
NO get Vucevic.
Magic get Blake Griffin.


Magic move Gordon to SF and add Festus Ezeli in the off season. I'm not a huge fan of Griffin, but I think if you can get a star you do it. It's not that I don't think he's very good, but I just don't like his attitude on and off the court. I don't really want him as our team leader.

Method28
02-09-2016, 07:14 PM
Harris doesn't have enough upside to be the centerpiece of a trade for Blake IMO.

5ass
02-09-2016, 07:21 PM
Harris doesn't have enough upside to be the centerpiece of a trade for Blake IMO.

Yeah you can get a higher upside player but he likely won't be as good today. That's the thing, we don't know what direction they would take if they traded griffin. Do they want to compete for the play offs with Paul or will they trade him too and go full rebuild?
The package I put together probably compares very well to what stars actually get traded for IRL. Think Howard, Paul, Melon, egg.

5ass
02-09-2016, 07:22 PM
Lol not Melon and eggs, Melo and ect.

JLynn943
02-09-2016, 07:33 PM
I also like WCS, and i do think the WCS gives you guys a better chance of winning today, and I think the value is fine. Upgrading to Harris and Fournier from WCS and Belineli most likely gets you to the play offs. Anyway, Gay is not really close to top 5 SF. Either way he's not far from Tobias.

Lbj
Kd
Leonard
George
Melo
Giannis
Hayward
Gallinari

Those 8 are clearly better IMO, after that I'd take Crowder, Gay and Tobias.

I'd put him above or at least on par with Gallo and Hayward. I think Antetokounmpo is overrated.

5ass
02-09-2016, 07:48 PM
I'd put him above or at least on par with Gallo and Hayward. I think Antetokounmpo is overrated.

I'd easily take Hayward and Gallo over him. Gallo is a more efficient scorer, and he's being used as a #1 option. Hayward also doesn't have a player like Cousins, and is being used as a #1 option, but scoring more efficiently. this is with Gay playing in uptempo offense, and Hayward playing it a slower pace with Gobert and Favors clogging up the lane. I don't think Gay is better than Hayward at anything except for rebounding. I agree Giannis is generally a little overrated. He's good, but some people make him out to be a star. I definitely should've put him under Hayward at least, but i'll take him over Gay for sure.

BoSox47
02-09-2016, 08:02 PM
Except Harris isn't being used as he should be to maximize his efficiency. That's fine, because it will help him in the long run, but it doesn't help his current stats. He's shooting a career high in 3pA rate for example even though he's never been a great shooter. I think 25 yr old Harris would be a huge upgrade over 25 yr old Crowder. I think there's some untapped potential with him, and think there's a solid chance he breaks out into an all star.

Crowder is way better defensively than Harris though.

GiantsSwaGG
02-09-2016, 09:09 PM
I have to think they can't be planning to pair Vucevic with Monroe...

Yeah that's a HORRIBLE fit

5ass
02-09-2016, 09:12 PM
Crowder is way better defensively than Harris though.

Not as much as you'd think. I think Crowder's defense is slightly overrated while Harris' is underrated. Harris is close to average, Crowder's a good defender, but he's not elite IMO, and sometimes he gambles for steals too much. Don't get me wrong Harris might never be as good as Crowder is defensively, but he always has had a reputation that he doesn't bother on defense. That's not true, he has come a long way since his rookie year, and even then he did give some effort on defense. He just wasn't very good (especially on the perimeter). This off season he worked on his stance and I think did Yoga or something only to improve his flexibility so that he could guard the perimeter better and it shows.

Also Harris is a better scorer and rebounder, but again I'm not trying to argue Harris is better than Crowder overall. I think it's close.

Corey
02-09-2016, 10:37 PM
Except Harris isn't being used as he should be to maximize his efficiency. That's fine, because it will help him in the long run, but it doesn't help his current stats. He's shooting a career high in 3pA rate for example even though he's never been a great shooter. I think 25 yr old Harris would be a huge upgrade over 25 yr old Crowder. I think there's some untapped potential with him, and think there's a solid chance he breaks out into an all star.

I completely agree for the most part, im just arguing salary vs on court production from a Celtics point of view. It sort of makes more sense for them just to keep going forward with Crowder at much less salary and use it to improve other areas of the team.

IndyRealist
02-09-2016, 10:41 PM
Why do you say especially on the Celtics? I get he's a good fit for their system, but I was thinking the Celtics could use an upgrade in scoring, and I really think Tobias is a 20ppg player in his prime. He would be the Celtics second best scorer if he was traded tomorrow IMO. To me they do what is necessary for them, they add a player to raise their ceiling. For all we know he could break out into a Millsap-level player (really not that far fetched when you think about it). Also, Tobias isn't exactly a one way player, he's become average defensively, and he's literally won us a couple of games because of his defense. I'm not talking about just a clutch defensive play like when he blocked Okafor at the rim, I'm talking about an impact felt throughout a game. He does a fine job guarding most PFs and SFs, which makes him valuable in a league embracing small ball. He's not a tweener anymore, he's a versatile forward.

Because the answer isn't always to throw more scorers at it. He fits their system really well and is a favorite of Brad Stevens. Their biggest weakness is not their starters but their reliance on Kelly Olynyk playing major minutes. Replacing their starters is a lateral move at best. And Crowder's contract will allow them to pay a starter without having to trade assets, incrasing their depth, or pay a starter level player to come off their bench.

5ass
02-09-2016, 10:59 PM
I completely agree for the most part, im just arguing salary vs on court production from a Celtics point of view. It sort of makes more sense for them just to keep going forward with Crowder at much less salary and use it to improve other areas of the team.

I guess, but Harris can replace Crowder's minutes and I was thinking Bradley/Smart increase their mpg. Also Harris would play some PF for sure. You can also get Smith's contract. He's like a poor man's Johnson. He's actually second in the league in FG% in the midrange. He's been crazy good in that area. He's expiring but for this season he'll give you good shot blocking as well. It's actually hilarious how underrated (even by players) he is when it comes to challenging players at the rim. He's called the highlight ruiner lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWUp3QdpZMo (highlights from last year, he's had many since) , I can't count how many times he blocked a dunk. They call him a highlight ruiner loll. We have Nicholson also has amazing post moves, but can't pass out of double teams in the post, not a good defender or rebounder, can shoot the three.

5ass
02-09-2016, 11:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5INE4BFDaw yesterday's Smith victim lol

5ass
02-09-2016, 11:08 PM
Because the answer isn't always to throw more scorers at it. He fits their system really well and is a favorite of Brad Stevens. Their biggest weakness is not their starters but their reliance on Kelly Olynyk playing major minutes. Replacing their starters is a lateral move at best. And Crowder's contract will allow them to pay a starter without having to trade assets, incrasing their depth, or pay a starter level player to come off their bench.

Here you're ignoring long term gain, and again Magic can add some other players like Nicholson and Smith.

Corey
02-09-2016, 11:21 PM
Because the answer isn't always to throw more scorers at it. He fits their system really well and is a favorite of Brad Stevens. Their biggest weakness is not their starters but their reliance on Kelly Olynyk playing major minutes. Replacing their starters is a lateral move at best. And Crowder's contract will allow them to pay a starter without having to trade assets, incrasing their depth, or pay a starter level player to come off their bench.

I pretty much completely agree. The Celtics only have about 30 mil tied up between Thomas-Bradley-Crowder-Sully-Olynyk-Smart, that's huge for what they're going to try to do moving forward.

Harris, right now, isnt a big enough upgrade over Crowder to justify the salary gain.

5ass
02-09-2016, 11:27 PM
Well that's a trade I would like anyway since a celtic fan asked me. What about Harris for Smart+Lee? I would love that, and I know Hennigan loves Smart too. He might've drafted him over Dipo in 2013 if he didn't decide to stay in college. Can have Smith, dedmon, Nicholson, protected first, ect.

Corey
02-10-2016, 12:06 AM
Well that's a trade I would like anyway since a celtic fan asked me. What about Harris for Smart+Lee? I would love that, and I know Hennigan loves Smart too. He might've drafted him over Dipo in 2013 if he didn't decide to stay in college. Can have Smith, dedmon, Nicholson, protected first, ect.

Honestly, to me, Smart is one of the most tradable pieces for Boston. Young, rookie contract, great on d, improving the long ball over the past month. He has youth, upside, stuff he's VERY good at, and cheap.

I'd be open to a deal that surrounded Smart for Harris.

I think Lee, followed by Sully are the most likely C's to be traded at the moment.

IndyRealist
02-10-2016, 12:23 AM
Here you're ignoring long term gain, and again Magic can add some other players like Nicholson and Smith.

Not really. Moving a starter to gain a starter is a lateral move when they can BUY a starter in the offseason and move someone to the bench or pay a starting level player to come off their bench. They have loads of money, they don't need to ship anyone out. Heck, they could just trade draft picks and build a starting level bench.

And all the sudden Orlando is adding pieces? I thought people said it was Boston who would have to add pieces.

5ass
02-10-2016, 12:31 AM
Honestly, to me, Smart is one of the most tradable pieces for Boston. Young, rookie contract, great on d, improving the long ball over the past month. He has youth, upside, stuff he's VERY good at, and cheap.

I'd be open to a deal that surrounded Smart for Harris.

I think Lee, followed by Sully are the most likely C's to be traded at the moment.

Yeah some Magic fans might think I'm crazy trading for another guard that can't shoot but I'd do it anyway because I love Smart's defense. The guard defense of Payton, smart and Oladipo would be crippling. Spacing won't take as much of a hit because no Harris=more time for Mario and Frye. Plus if Gordon, Oladipo, and Payton can improve their shooting so can Smart. I think we have good trainers for that. Fact is the Magic probably never become an elite offensive team, so give me elite defense.

5ass
02-10-2016, 12:41 AM
Not really. Moving a starter to gain a starter is a lateral move when they can BUY a starter in the offseason and move someone to the bench or pay a starting level player to come off their bench. They have loads of money, they don't need to ship anyone out. Heck, they could just trade draft picks and build a starting level bench.

And all the sudden Orlando is adding pieces? I thought people said it was Boston who would have to add pieces.

And all starters are equal? It's a lateral move today probably, but in the future Harris projects to be a better player. The off season is going to be full of teams with capspace. Nothing is guaranteed, likely everyone gets overpaid. If you think Harris is overpaid, it'll take just as much to pry the third best SG (Fournier) on the market (Wade/Beal are 1\2). Do you really want to pay Horford 25 mill instead of Harris at 16? Sullinger 10+? Harris is contract still leaves them with a lot of cap space. I'm going off a previous post in thread that mentioned the Celtics having 30 mill tied up next season. Remove Crowder's 7 add Harris' 16 and you still have only 39 mill tied up? 60 mill in cap space they can still buy as many starters as they want.

And my original trade was Crowder+Johnson for Harris. Johnson's contract makes the salary equal. Yes I dont care if we give up Smith when Johnson can do his job and do it better.

IndyRealist
02-10-2016, 08:28 AM
And all starters are equal? It's a lateral move today probably, but in the future Harris projects to be a better player. The off season is going to be full of teams with capspace. Nothing is guaranteed, likely everyone gets overpaid. If you think Harris is overpaid, it'll take just as much to pry the third best SG (Fournier) on the market (Wade/Beal are 1\2). Do you really want to pay Horford 25 mill instead of Harris at 16? Sullinger 10+? Harris is contract still leaves them with a lot of cap space. I'm going off a previous post in thread that mentioned the Celtics having 30 mill tied up next season. Remove Crowder's 7 add Harris' 16 and you still have only 39 mill tied up? 60 mill in cap space they can still buy as many starters as they want.

And my original trade was Crowder+Johnson for Harris. Johnson's contract makes the salary equal. Yes I dont care if we give up Smith when Johnson can do his job and do it better.

They don't need Horford at $25m. They need Pachulia at $10m or Mahimni at $8m. They're filling gaps and adding depth, not rebuilding the starters. They're 31-23, not 23-31.

ManRam
02-10-2016, 12:09 PM
I'm all for trading Tobias, assuming the return package is close to fair. The only reason I'm glad we re-signed him is because it's better than letting him walk for nothing.

I'm not gonna speculate on packages because 99% of the time it's a waste of time...but I won't shed a tear of he's traded.

5ass
02-10-2016, 03:56 PM
They don't need Horford at $25m. They need Pachulia at $10m or Mahimni at $8m. They're filling gaps and adding depth, not rebuilding the starters. They're 31-23, not 23-31.

Well they'd have the capspace to offer them contracts. Anyway that's not true, Sullinger and Johnson are not going to be their long term starter. Sullinger is a FA, and Amir has player option I believe. Either way the Celtics are obviously still looking for starters, that is why they shuffle their starting line up often. Saying that they have a good record so they don't want to change their starters is false.

Corey
02-10-2016, 04:13 PM
Sullinger is a FA, and Amir has player option I believe. Either way the Celtics are obviously still looking for starters, that is why they shuffle their starting line up often. Saying that they have a good record so they don't want to change their starters is false.

You dont know what youre talking about.

First of all, Sullinger is restricted. Whoever has him will have his rights in the offseason.

Second of all, Johnson doesnt have a player option. His contract is unguaranteed for next season. It's up to the team.

Third of all, the Celtics have rotated their starting lineup to find the most effective pairings very early in the season, and it's led them to being the third best team in the East.

For 37 out of 54 games they've had the same starting lineup.

The only reason that number isnt higher is because Bradley missed 5 games with an injury. Amir missed 3 games. Sullinger missed a few games. Marcus Smart missed 21 games.

Shuffles and swaps have to be made throughout a season for every team. Its a long season.

And yeah, Boston isnt going to shake up something just to make a move unless its a drastic improvement that helps right now and long term.

5ass
02-10-2016, 04:49 PM
You dont know what youre talking about.

First of all, Sullinger is restricted. Whoever has him will have his rights in the offseason.

Second of all, Johnson doesnt have a player option. His contract is unguaranteed for next season. It's up to the team.

Third of all, the Celtics have rotated their starting lineup to find the most effective pairings very early in the season, and it's led them to being the third best team in the East.

For 37 out of 54 games they've had the same starting lineup.

The only reason that number isnt higher is because Bradley missed 5 games with an injury. Amir missed 3 games. Sullinger missed a few games. Marcus Smart missed 21 games.

Shuffles and swaps have to be made throughout a season for every team. Its a long season.

And yeah, Boston isnt going to shake up something just to make a move unless its a drastic improvement that helps right now and long term.

Last i heard they didnt want to offer Sllinger's fat *** a contract. Did they even offer any sort of extension? You yourself said he's most likely to be traded, no?
I said i beleive Amir has a player option. Ok its a team option, either way it proves my point. If they thought he's a long term starter they wouldve offered him a longer contract.

I think i know exactly what im talking about and i think your being too sensitive here because i said they shuffled their line up a lot lol. I didnt say they needed a shake up but they do need an upgrade in the front court. Sullinger and Johnson are not looking like long term starters. Sullinger and amir only play 23 mpg.

Corey
02-10-2016, 04:56 PM
Last i heard they didnt want to offer Sllinger's fat *** a contract. Did they even offer any sort of extension? You yourself said he's most likely to be traded, no?
I said i beleive Amir has a player option. Ok its a team option, either way it proves my point. If they thought he's a long term starter they wouldve offered him a longer contract.

I think i know exactly what im talking about and i think your being too sensitive here because i said they shuffled their line up a lot lol. I didnt say they needed a shake up but they do need an upgrade in the front court. Sullinger and Johnson are not looking like long term starters. Sullinger and amir only play 23 mpg.

Im hardly sensitive, I genuinely don't give a **** about the NBA. Being informed doesn't mean I care. I have nothing to be sensitive about.

Sullinger being likely to be traded has nothing to do with what youre trying to say. Sullinger is a restricted free agent, can impact the game from different areas of the floor, is young, cheap for the rest of the year, and any team that obtains him has value in the offseason due to the fact that they can match any offer for him, or use him in a sign and trade. In addition to Boston having a loaded front court and depth at the position. THAT is why he's likely to be traded, not because of his 'fat ***' as you seem to see it.

And you're wrong, yet again. The reason Johnson wasn't offered a long contract was mutually beneficial for the player and the team. It gives Boston financial flexibility leading into the off-season with a raised cap and the option to remove his 12 million from the books and go after a bigger fish...Additionally it gives Johnson the opportunity to cash in on a much bigger contract long term with the increased league cap. So no, your assertion that they "dont view him as a long term starter" is pretty wrong.

And yeah, they play 23 minutes per game. If you knew about the Celtics, you'd know that it has a lot more to do with depth and rotations, not player talent or ability. Both players are good at what they do, and a lot of the reason Boston is a good team this year is because of their depth. The second string is almost as productive as the first string. You can rotate players in and out off the bench without losing any productivity. That's what teams do when they dont have a legit star if they want to be successful, and its working for Boston.

5ass
02-10-2016, 05:21 PM
Im hardly sensitive, I genuinely don't give a **** about the NBA. Being informed doesn't mean I care. I have nothing to be sensitive about.

Sullinger being likely to be traded has nothing to do with what youre trying to say. Sullinger is a restricted free agent, can impact the game from different areas of the floor, is young, cheap for the rest of the year, and any team that obtains him has value in the offseason due to the fact that they can match any offer for him, or use him in a sign and trade. In addition to Boston having a loaded front court and depth at the position. THAT is why he's likely to be traded, not because of his 'fat ***' as you seem to see it.

And you're wrong, yet again. The reason Johnson wasn't offered a long contract was mutually beneficial for the player and the team. It gives Boston financial flexibility leading into the off-season with a raised cap and the option to remove his 12 million from the books and go after a bigger fish...Additionally it gives Johnson the opportunity to cash in on a much bigger contract long term with the increased league cap. So no, your assertion that they "dont view him as a long term starter" is pretty wrong.

And yeah, they play 23 minutes per game. If you knew about the Celtics, you'd know that it has a lot more to do with depth and rotations, not player talent or ability. Both players are good at what they do, and a lot of the reason Boston is a good team this year is because of their depth. The second string is almost as productive as the first string. You can rotate players in and out off the bench without losing any productivity. That's what teams do when they dont have a legit star if they want to be successful, and its working for Boston.

Didn't the Celtics pass on giving Sullinger an extension because of his conditioning? Isn't that a reason why he's playing only 23 mpg.

I think you have it wrong, Celtics use their depth because they dont have enough talent in the front court not because they're too talented. Olynyk is a solid player, but again he's not a legit starter. Think about, Johnson and sullinger rank no where near top 10 at their positions. Stevens just knows how to mix and match. Just because its "working" now doesn't mean its a long term solution.

Corey
02-10-2016, 07:10 PM
Didn't the Celtics pass on giving Sullinger an extension because of his conditioning? Isn't that a reason why he's playing only 23 mpg.

I think you have it wrong, Celtics use their depth because they dont have enough talent in the front court not because they're too talented. Olynyk is a solid player, but again he's not a legit starter. Think about, Johnson and sullinger rank no where near top 10 at their positions. Stevens just knows how to mix and match. Just because its "working" now doesn't mean its a long term solution.

They passed on giving him an extension because they dont want salary tied up when it doesnt need to be. Weight will always be a concern with him, but not so much at this age. The Celtics have done everything theyve done over the past 2-3 years in a very calculated manner to maintain financial flexibility for the next two drafts / free agency.

You can think I'm wrong all you want, I dont really care. They have no means of getting a star at this point. You get them through developining your own talent through the draft, signing one, or trading one. They're acquiring draft picks and solid players so they have the means to either draft one or trade for one because no big names are ever interested in signing in Boston. High taxes, cold winters, racist reputation (which is overblown).

They use their depth because that's their best way to be competitive right now. Keep players fresh. Play matchups. Use everyone in specific roles. Fill the roster with players that are capable of switching multiple positions on defense. Brad Stevens knows what he's doing.

And never did I say it's a long term solution, youre putting that in my mouth. It's their best option right now, and its going to be their best option until a star player becomes available at a good price, or you develop one through the draft.

Again, this is all rooting back from Tobias Harris. The Celtics, I guarantee, would rather keep Crowder at his salary than trade for Harris at his given each player's production and 2-way ability.

5ass
02-10-2016, 07:40 PM
They passed on giving him an extension because they dont want salary tied up when it doesnt need to be. Weight will always be a concern with him, but not so much at this age. The Celtics have done everything theyve done over the past 2-3 years in a very calculated manner to maintain financial flexibility for the next two drafts / free agency.

You can think I'm wrong all you want, I dont really care. They have no means of getting a star at this point. You get them through developining your own talent through the draft, signing one, or trading one. They're acquiring draft picks and solid players so they have the means to either draft one or trade for one because no big names are ever interested in signing in Boston. High taxes, cold winters, racist reputation (which is overblown).

They use their depth because that's their best way to be competitive right now. Keep players fresh. Play matchups. Use everyone in specific roles. Fill the roster with players that are capable of switching multiple positions on defense. Brad Stevens knows what he's doing.

And never did I say it's a long term solution, youre putting that in my mouth. It's their best option right now, and its going to be their best option until a star player becomes available at a good price, or you develop one through the draft.

Again, this is all rooting back from Tobias Harris. The Celtics, I guarantee, would rather keep Crowder at his salary than trade for Harris at his given each player's production and 2-way ability.

I'm not in love with Crowder, that was just a trade scenario I thought of on the spot. Whether we get him or not doesn't matter to me, there will be plenty of other options, and Crowder isn't much better than Harris. Hell I said I prefer smart over crowder.

The poster said the Celtics aren't looking to change any of their starters in FA or trade (I guess barring a superstar returning) and posted their record as proof. I say that's false, I dont think anyone in the starting line up is safe long term TBH. I think if they can upgrade over Sully/Amir it would happen. I think they'll actively look for a starter to move one of them to the bench. Doesn't have to be a star either, just a good starter on a good contract.

Corey
02-10-2016, 07:47 PM
I'm not in love with Crowder, that was just a trade scenario I thought of on the spot. Whether we get him or not doesn't matter to me, there will be plenty of other options, and Crowder isn't much better than Harris. Hell I said I prefer smart over crowder.

The poster said the Celtics aren't looking to change any of their starters in FA or trade (I guess barring a superstar returning) and posted their record as proof. I say that's false, I dont think anyone in the starting line up is safe long term TBH. I think if they can upgrade over Sully/Amir it would happen. I think they'll actively look for a starter to move one of them to the bench. Doesn't have to be a star either, just a good starter on a good contract.

I understand what youre saying, and im not meaning to make this a Celtics thread, but I agree with the other poster. They arent going to shake up the roster for a small tweak or modest upgrade. The Celtics, unless they can make a splash, arent going to make a move to the starting lineup. They have no reason to. The only player that is definitely going to go somewhere is Lee, and he doesnt play at all. They have Sullinger, Olynyk, Amir, Zeller, Jerebko can play the 4....Trading for someone marginally better than what they have isnt worth whatever they're going to give up

5ass
02-10-2016, 09:40 PM
I understand what youre saying, and im not meaning to make this a Celtics thread, but I agree with the other poster. They arent going to shake up the roster for a small tweak or modest upgrade. The Celtics, unless they can make a splash, arent going to make a move to the starting lineup. They have no reason to. The only player that is definitely going to go somewhere is Lee, and he doesnt play at all. They have Sullinger, Olynyk, Amir, Zeller, Jerebko can play the 4....Trading for someone marginally better than what they have isnt worth whatever they're going to give up

I disagree man. I think they'll look to improve their starters. They have a **** ton of moveable assets to get a star, and you have to keep some assets in case something happens, but im talking trading less valuable assets and reasonable contracts in FA (Johnson type). Take a chance on someone at the very least like you did with Crowder. You probably dont want to put all your hope into getting a superstar when you're on the verge of being a team that has a great shot at the ECF.
Also you know you can upgrade the starting line up without actually touching your starters right? You want to keep Sullinger and Johnson on the team fine. Ofcourse they'd be available in a trade for a star and Crowder, Bradley, isaiah are all significant assets. Im talking about guys like trading young, rozier ect. Or for example the marcus smart for tobias harris scenario. You're trading two bench players for a starter. I really think he'd take over the PF role and push Sullinger out of the starting line up. You could resign Sullinger and he could still get 25 mpg off the bench, but you upgraded the starting line up.

Corey
02-10-2016, 09:53 PM
I disagree man. I think they'll look to improve their starters. They have a **** ton of moveable assets to get a star, and you have to keep some assets in case something happens, but im talking trading less valuable assets and reasonable contracts in FA (Johnson type). Take a chance on someone at the very least like you did with Crowder. You probably dont want to put all your hope into getting a superstar when you're on the verge of being a team that has a great shot at the ECF.

They dont have a great shot in the ECF, even if they added a guy like Horford who is probably the most realistic top target for them.

Dont get me wrong, I want a splash, but im realistic. They arent going to make modest deals. The Celtics are a 3 seed as is, swapping a couple players for Harris, or Teague, or someone like that isnt going to make them a 1/2 seed or increase finals chances right now.

Its far more likely that they stand pat and deal with everything in the offseason, unless a move for a star works its way out of the grain.

And it's not putting all your hope into a super star, its putting your hope in the talent you've developed, the draft picks you have upcoming, and the ability to trade assets for a much better player. I dont think many Boston fans expect a splash in free agency. If Boston is going to do anything special, its going to be via trade or draft

IndyRealist
02-10-2016, 10:35 PM
I'm not in love with Crowder, that was just a trade scenario I thought of on the spot. Whether we get him or not doesn't matter to me, there will be plenty of other options, and Crowder isn't much better than Harris. Hell I said I prefer smart over crowder.

The poster said the Celtics aren't looking to change any of their starters in FA or trade (I guess barring a superstar returning) and posted their record as proof. I say that's false, I dont think anyone in the starting line up is safe long term TBH. I think if they can upgrade over Sully/Amir it would happen. I think they'll actively look for a starter to move one of them to the bench. Doesn't have to be a star either, just a good starter on a good contract.

Actually what i said is there's no reason to trade a starter for a starter when they can just sign guys in free agency. They can pursue starting caliber players to come off their bench, or they can pursue a starter and bump someone else to the bench. Trading away cheap assets on long deals doesn't make sense.

5ass
02-11-2016, 12:02 AM
They dont have a great shot in the ECF, even if they added a guy like Horford who is probably the most realistic top target for them.

Dont get me wrong, I want a splash, but im realistic. They arent going to make modest deals. The Celtics are a 3 seed as is, swapping a couple players for Harris, or Teague, or someone like that isnt going to make them a 1/2 seed or increase finals chances right now.

Its far more likely that they stand pat and deal with everything in the offseason, unless a move for a star works its way out of the grain.

And it's not putting all your hope into a super star, its putting your hope in the talent you've developed, the draft picks you have upcoming, and the ability to trade assets for a much better player. I dont think many Boston fans expect a splash in free agency. If Boston is going to do anything special, its going to be via trade or draft

I think that if you add Horford, you're a LeBron injury away from having a good shot at the finals. Raptors aren't scary in the play offs, Hawks and Bulls are falling apart. Heat's bosh, Wade, Deng are older and Whiteside is a dumb ***. Plus, if FA isn't an option to get a superstar, then why so much cap space? Why not use at least some of it to improve the team?

You'd have a short window for sure with Horford at 30 yrs old, and you have to be lucky for LeBron to get injured (let's face it though, I dont want to jinx the guy but he's due for a season ending injury after 11 years in the league. If not this year then the next two years.) and have a shot at the finals, but then again you'd also have the option to make trades for a superstar. That short window (2-3 yes) is good enough though, because that's the opening they have before teams like the Wizards, Bucks, Magic, Knicks, sixers, ect. Take the jump to contenders. All you need is to put up a good fight vs Cleveland for the near future when everyone else in the east is falling apart or developing. Should be able to reach the ECF IMO. Add a superstar and raise that ceiling to real championship contender and extend the window of opportunity slightly.. Or don't add a star through trade, but draft a star and develop him on a good play off team with all stars/border-line allstars (Horford, Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, ect.) providing veteran leadership. Again if ur lucky draft someone that is so good he can contribute immediately and again raise your ceiling, but this time extend your window of opportunity significantly.

This is just my opinion, and what I would do if I was Danny Ainge. I think the Celtics went for a very short rebuild, and though they accumulated assets it might have long term repercussions. I think if they were thinking highest ceiling then they would've tanked for two years. Not sixers tanking, but not really looking to improve quick. Think about the potential if they had a top 3 pick last year and two top 5 this year. It's all going to depend on Ainge though, the repercussions might be non existent if Ainge plays it really smart. He's done well so far IMO. I can't think of any mistakes he's done since the rebuild... have you?

Good game vs clippers. Isaiah is a great second option on a real contender, the fact that the Kings traded him away confirms to me how dumb the kings FO is/was. Also that PHX does not know how to build a team. How many PGs have they went through since Nash?

5ass
02-11-2016, 12:11 AM
Actually what i said is there's no reason to trade a starter for a starter when they can just sign guys in free agency. They can pursue starting caliber players to come off their bench, or they can pursue a starter and bump someone else to the bench. Trading away cheap assets on long deals doesn't make sense.
So you wouldn't trade Sullinger for Tobias Harris? Both are "starters". If you can upgrade long term you upgrade, I already explained why Tobias' difference in contract doesn't hinder them, and how there is potential for Tobias to be more than just a "starter".

IndyRealist
02-11-2016, 08:58 AM
So you wouldn't trade Sullinger for Tobias Harris? Both are "starters". If you can upgrade long term you upgrade, I already explained why Tobias' difference in contract doesn't hinder them, and how there is potential for Tobias to be more than just a "starter".

The trade wasn't Sullinger, it was Crowder who is on a team friendly contract. I abbreviated the conversation to keep it simple. And no, probably not Sullinger for Harris. Restricted free agency is so grossly unfair to players and other teams it's crazy. If Sully wants out, you can easily land a player and a pick for him. No reason to trade that advantage.

hugepatsfan
02-11-2016, 12:06 PM
So you wouldn't trade Sullinger for Tobias Harris? Both are "starters". If you can upgrade long term you upgrade, I already explained why Tobias' difference in contract doesn't hinder them, and how there is potential for Tobias to be more than just a "starter".

Why do you support the deal from ORL's perspective. You seem pretty adament that the Crowder/Amir deal is great for BOS. So I'm just curious why you would be arguing for that deal from your teams' perspecitve.

5ass
02-11-2016, 04:04 PM
The trade wasn't Sullinger, it was Crowder who is on a team friendly contract. I abbreviated the conversation to keep it simple. And no, probably not Sullinger for Harris. Restricted free agency is so grossly unfair to players and other teams it's crazy. If Sully wants out, you can easily land a player and a pick for him. No reason to trade that advantage.

It's not either or, they can upgrade a starter through trade and find a bench player in FA. FA is tricky this year, huge bump in the cap and many teams with cap space. Guys like sulliger will get overpaid as well.

5ass
02-11-2016, 04:08 PM
Why do you support the deal from ORL's perspective. You seem pretty adament that the Crowder/Amir deal is great for BOS. So I'm just curious why you would be arguing for that deal from your teams' perspecitve.

We add shooting, we add defense and we get insurance in case RFA Fournier gets an offer too big to match. Or maybe make Fournier a trade asset. Plus I really like Amir, and wanted him in the offseason. I didn't put much thought at first when I thought about this trade. I'm not sure its a great deal for either side, but I think its good.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-11-2016, 04:52 PM
Amir is breaking down. All I see in him is his nonguaranteed contract teams opt out of.

5ass
02-11-2016, 04:58 PM
Amir is breaking down. All I see in him is his nonguaranteed contract teams opt out of.

Skiles would bring him back. Amir would get plenty of shots from the midrange like Vucevic and Smith do. Smith is actually second in the league in midrange % (by far career high), he gets so many open looks because of Oladipo/Payton/Fournier's ability to drive. Mostly oladipo. He's an upgrade over smith, even if not a huge upgrade. Magic need rim protection.

PAOboston
02-11-2016, 11:45 PM
Actually what i said is there's no reason to trade a starter for a starter when they can just sign guys in free agency. They can pursue starting caliber players to come off their bench, or they can pursue a starter and bump someone else to the bench. Trading away cheap assets on long deals doesn't make sense.
So you wouldn't trade Sullinger for Tobias Harris? Both are "starters". If you can upgrade long term you upgrade, I already explained why Tobias' difference in contract doesn't hinder them, and how there is potential for Tobias to be more than just a "starter".
The Celtics wouldn't do that deal. If they really wanted Harris, they would have just signed him the past offseason.

5ass
02-12-2016, 12:53 AM
The Celtics wouldn't do that deal. If they really wanted Harris, they would have just signed him the past offseason.

Lol they couldnt, multiple teams tried to sign him but he wanted to stay with the Magic. I think Ainge takes that deal and runs. But then again im sure you like sullinger more than i do.

Aust
02-12-2016, 03:29 AM
Lol they couldnt, multiple teams tried to sign him but he wanted to stay with the Magic. I think Ainge takes that deal and runs. But then again im sure you like sullinger more than i do.

He was a RFA right? That was probably the reason they couldn't.

5ass
02-12-2016, 03:32 AM
He was a RFA right? That was probably the reason they couldn't.

Yeah that too, but he also took a slight paycut to stay. He didn't want to leave.

PAOboston
02-12-2016, 08:38 AM
The Celtics wouldn't do that deal. If they really wanted Harris, they would have just signed him the past offseason.

Lol they couldnt, multiple teams tried to sign him but he wanted to stay with the Magic. I think Ainge takes that deal and runs. But then again im sure you like sullinger more than i do.
I don't like Sullinger at all. But a deal with Harris/Sullinger wouldn't work straight up. I don't really think Harris is that great either. I don't think he's a $16 million dollar player.

JLynn943
02-12-2016, 11:42 AM
I don't like Sullinger at all. But a deal with Harris/Sullinger wouldn't work straight up. I don't really think Harris is that great either. I don't think he's a $16 million dollar player.

He's not right now, but the salary cap skyrocketing is screwing with salaries. He might be worth that in a year or two, but right now there are plenty of more productive players making less than that.

Right now isn't a bad time to trade for high salary contracts with some years left on them because those contracts are probably going to look great next year.

5ass
02-12-2016, 02:10 PM
He's not right now, but the salary cap skyrocketing is screwing with salaries. He might be worth that in a year or two, but right now there are plenty of more productive players making less than that.

Right now isn't a bad time to trade for high salary contracts with some years left on them because those contracts are probably going to look great next year.

16 mill under this salary cap is like 10-11mill under the old one. That is atleast what average starters will be making. Nevermind the fact that he's still improving, and will be a better player in the next two years. 16 mill/yr is not bad for a 17-7 player. He could be a nice third option.

Corey
02-12-2016, 02:40 PM
16 mill under this salary cap is like 10-11mill under the old one. That is atleast what average starters will be making. Nevermind the fact that he's still improving, and will be a better player in the next two years. 16 mill/yr is not bad for a 17-7 player. He could be a nice third option.

a 17-7 player with underwhelming (Average) defense, no outside jumper, nothing special in the mid range. If teams are interested in him, its based on potential. 23 is still very young, but lets not act like that 17 points is anything special. He's a wing that cant shoot.

Shooting 31% from 3pt, 24% from 10-16 feet. If you play him at the 4 that's passable, I guess, but it doesnt fit what a lot of teams are trying to do.

5ass
02-12-2016, 02:51 PM
a 17-7 player with underwhelming (Average) defense, no outside jumper, nothing special in the mid range. If teams are interested in him, its based on potential. 23 is still very young, but lets not act like that 17 points is anything special. He's a wing that cant shoot.

Shooting 31% from 3pt, 24% from 10-16 feet. If you play him at the 4 that's passable, I guess, but it doesnt fit what a lot of teams are trying to do.

He shot 36% from three last year, so you know he's improving as a shooter. His 3pt% could change by the end of the season. Tobias right now is one of the best versatile forwards (SF+PFs) in the game. His versatility is for sure valuable for any team in this eta even if he never improves, so no its not all potential. He's pretty productive today even with a role he's not very comfortable with. Under the new salary cap, 16 mill is fine for a player like Tobias. With potential for him to be a great contract if he develops his game further.

Corey
02-12-2016, 02:55 PM
He shot 36% from three last year, so you know he's improving as a shooter. His 3pt% could change by the end of the season. Tobias right now is one of the best versatile forwards (SF+PFs) in the game. His versatility is for sure valuable for any team in this eta even if he never improves, so no its not all potential. He's pretty productive today even with a role he's not very comfortable with. Under the new salary cap, 16 mill is fine for a player like Tobias. With potential for him to be a great contract if he develops his game further.

You know he's improving? He went from shooting 25% from 3, to 36% last year, back down to 31% this year.

You sound like youre trying to hype him up instead of being realistic about what type of player he is at this stage in his career.

sixer04fan
02-12-2016, 03:02 PM
You know he's improving? He went from shooting 25% from 3, to 36% last year, back down to 31% this year.

You sound like youre trying to hype him up instead of being realistic about what type of player he is at this stage in his career.

This...

5ass
02-12-2016, 03:05 PM
You know he's improving? He went from shooting 25% from 3, to 36% last year, back down to 31% this year.

You sound like youre trying to hype him up instead of being realistic about what type of player he is at this stage in his career.

He has improved as a shooter big time since he came to the league, and like I said his 3pt % will change. Literally last month oladio was shooting less than 30% now he's at 35%. Plus, you failed to mention Harris is shooting a career high 44% from 16-3pt land this year.

5ass
02-12-2016, 03:08 PM
Tobias has grown every single year. Last year he hit a high 3pt%m this yer he's a better rebounder, defender, and increased his AST:TO ratio. Give him one more year and he should be a consistent shooter.

5ass
02-12-2016, 03:15 PM
And I am realistic abt what type of player he is at this stage. You saw my SF rankings anfew pages ago, do you think he doesn't have a case for near top 10 at his position?

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-13-2016, 10:05 AM
This...
Harris regress a tad like Cory mentioned from down town. Also now Magic shopping him after he signed. Skiles probably doesn't want him there. He didn't play him much in Milwaukee. Then again Skiles coaching wears thin and loses players then gets fired. Magic mainly signed him to hang onto a asset. Kinda like Denver and Faried. Front office flat out said they weren't nuts over Faried. They only signed him to hang onto the asset and was a fan favorite. But I could see him dealt as well now.

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
02-13-2016, 11:23 AM
Harris regress a tad like Cory mentioned from down town. Also now Magic shopping him after he signed. Skiles probably doesn't want him there. He didn't play him much in Milwaukee. Then again Skiles coaching wears thin and loses players then gets fired. Magic mainly signed him to hang onto a asset. Kinda like Denver and Faried. Front office flat out said they weren't nuts over Faried. They only signed him to hang onto the asset and was a fan favorite. But I could see him dealt as well now.



Yup I agree with all that

5ass
02-13-2016, 02:45 PM
Harris regress a tad like Cory mentioned from down town. Also now Magic shopping him after he signed. Skiles probably doesn't want him there. He didn't play him much in Milwaukee. Then again Skiles coaching wears thin and loses players then gets fired. Magic mainly signed him to hang onto a asset. Kinda like Denver and Faried. Front office flat out said they weren't nuts over Faried. They only signed him to hang onto the asset and was a fan favorite. But I could see him dealt as well now.

He's hitting a lower % this year, that doesn't mean his jump shot has regressed. but for the past five years he's been improving his jump shot. I mean if we take a larger sample size of this year and last year, compare it to the two years before that. You'd see it went up from like 29% to about 34%. Also factor in that his 3pt rate went from jumped from 17 to 27%. And that his shot from 16-3pt land also improved.

But Skiles doesn't want him there right? That's why he said he never wanted Tobias traded from Milwaukee? Is it why Tobias leads the team in minutes per game (32.9mpg)? Lol

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 04:40 PM
5ass,

Does Harris play more of the 3 or 4 in Orlando?

5ass
02-13-2016, 04:53 PM
5ass,

Does Harris play more of the 3 or 4 in Orlando?

Depends on the match up. Sometimes he'll get matched up with LeBron, George, ect. other times he'll match up with Millsap, griffin, ect. He obviously isn't able to defend ALL SFs and PFs, but is good enough to do an average job overall. You can put him on LeBron and it won't be a massacre, Tobias competes on the defensive end. Not a terrible help defender, but obviously if you have him at PF, you'd want a defensive center alongside. Rebounding is fine at both positions. Post defense is pretty good, perimeter defense isn't bad, but needs improvement. Offensively, he's quicker than most PFs and bigger/stronger than most SFs. Doesn't matter where you put him he has multiple ways to score.

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 05:00 PM
Depends on the match up. Sometimes he'll get matched up with LeBron, George, ect. other times he'll match up with Millsap, griffin, ect. He obviously isn't able to defend ALL SFs and PFs, but is good enough to do an average job overall. You can put him on LeBron and it won't be a massacre, Tobias competes on the defensive end. Not a terrible help defender, but obviously if you have him at PF, you'd want a defensive center alongside. Rebounding is fine at both positions. Post defense is pretty good, perimeter defense isn't bad, but needs improvement. Offensively, he's quicker than most PFs and bigger/stronger than most SFs. Doesn't matter where you put him he has multiple ways to score.

Yeah, I really like his game. I really want the Bulls to pull off a trade with Orlando. I really like Harris, Dipo, and a 1st for Jimmy. Hell, if they wanted to give up Fournier too that would be great.

I think Harris at the four would work with a prime Noah at center. On this current Bulls team I think he would play the 3 predominantly. I do love his versatility though.

5ass
02-13-2016, 05:25 PM
Well to expand more on Tobias, here's what I dont like:

Instincts on defense.
General basketball IQ.


Not that he's terrible in those areas, but I dont see them ever being strengths (I could be wrong). His IQ has improved, but still inconsistent. Sometimes he fails to make the right pass. Not because he's selfish, he just doesn't see the floor as well as he should. Also sometimes drives into traffic, and misses/gets blocked. He's made small improvements and by all accounts he's a pro and an extremely hard worker. Still, these two things are still and probably will never be strengths.

Other than that, the reason I want him traded is only because of the fit on the team. We're not using him to his full potential and he doesn't provide great shooting or rim protection. Magic kind of need both, and a player that can play off the ball. Tobias has done a great job adjusting though, Skiles really doesn't draw up many plays for him, so he has found other ways to contribute.

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 05:36 PM
Good breakdown thanks for that. The magic have quite a lot of young talent. Harris, dipo, vucevic, Gordon, Fournier etc...what seems to be their struggles? I thought they would be at least a .500 team this season. There's still time though.

5ass
02-13-2016, 05:41 PM
Good breakdown thanks for that. The magic have quite a lot of young talent. Harris, dipo, vucevic, Gordon, Fournier etc...what seems to be their struggles? I thought they would be at least a .500 team this season. There's still time though.

Young and dumb. Wolves have a lot of talent too between Towns, Wiggins and Levine but they're on pace to win 25. Magic are on pace to win 38, but obviously we have guys like Vucevic+Oladipo+Harris+fournier with experience. Other than that Mario, Gordon and Payton are 20-21 yrs old, and the team just doesn't fit as well as it should.

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 05:43 PM
Young and dumb. Wolves have a lot of talent too between Towns, Wiggins and Levine but they're on pace to win 25. Magic are on pace to win 38, but obviously we have guys like Vucevic+Oladipo+Harris+fournier with experience. Other than that Mario, Gordon and Payton are 20-21 yrs old, and the team just doesn't fit as well as it should.

Yeah wolves are stacked with talent. They need to make a move though. Same with the magic, IMO.

5ass
02-13-2016, 05:58 PM
Yeah wolves are stacked with talent. They need to make a move though. Same with the magic, IMO.

I also think the wolves should make some minor moves but probably not this year. They're on pace to finish with a top 5 pick. What they need to do now is their homework for the draft. Next year though, yes I would look to upgrade the supporting cast a little, including the coach. Speaking of the wolves, Tobias would actually be a great fit for them.

For the Magic, its going to be tricky to make a trade. I like a lot of our guys, and I'm willing to be a bit more patient to see if they can make it work. They like each other too, after the trade rumours came out vucevic said he doesn't want to see anyone traded, and since then they've been playing more inspired basketball. Won twice against the hawks and played well vs the spurs.

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 06:26 PM
I also think the wolves should make some minor moves but probably not this year. They're on pace to finish with a top 5 pick. What they need to do now is their homework for the draft. Next year though, yes I would look to upgrade the supporting cast a little, including the coach. Speaking of the wolves, Tobias would actually be a great fit for them.

For the Magic, its going to be tricky to make a trade. I like a lot of our guys, and I'm willing to be a bit more patient to see if they can make it work. They like each other too, after the trade rumours came out vucevic said he doesn't want to see anyone traded, and since then they've been playing more inspired basketball. Won twice against the hawks and played well vs the spurs.

Just tell your GM to trade us Harris, Dipo, Fournier and a 1st for Butler and Snell. Besides the return we get I would love to see Skiles make Snell cry.

5ass
02-13-2016, 06:41 PM
Snell looks creepy as hell, bulls should keep him and use him and portis to just stare at players when they're shooting FTs. Lol i'd take Taj though.

KG2TB
02-13-2016, 08:20 PM
Snell looks creepy as hell, bulls should keep him and use him and portis to just stare at players when they're shooting FTs. Lol i'd take Taj though.

Ha! That would be pretty funny.

I'm sure the Bulls are listening offers for Taj. We have Portis and Niko at the four spot. Taj could play some 5 here and there too but that's not ideal.

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
02-13-2016, 08:42 PM
I'm so jealous of the talent twolves have so quick.... !!! Wiggins and kat omg and then throw in lavine ...

5ass
02-13-2016, 10:24 PM
I'm so jealous of the talent twolves have so quick.... !!! Wiggins and kat omg and then throw in lavine ...

Yeah I like KAT a lot. He's special. Wiggins and Lavine not as much, but they were still great picks. Its funny how overrated the 2014 draft was. Supposed to have 3-4 elite players and multiple all stars, and I think we'll end up with only 3-4 All-stars. Not a bad draft, but overrated.

The "so quick" part is relative to how you look at the situation. Technically, when they traded Love they recycled talent, and they still have guys like Rubio, dieng, and Shabazz that they drafted before that. Have been in the lottery for like 11 years now. Got really lucky Cavs landed the 1st pick and then they got the 1st pick again the next year. Not taking anything from the Wolves, I'm happy the team finally has a future. I'll love it when they become contenders. I've been following most rebuilding teams past couple of years, and Wolves are going to be finals contenders even if their front office ****s up a little.

IndyRealist
02-13-2016, 11:18 PM
Watching the Slam Dunk Contest. Whey the heck are we talking about KAT and Harris when we should be having multiple threads about Zach LaVine and Aaron Gordon?! :P

CardinalRed24
02-13-2016, 11:44 PM
He would make a solid 2/3 option on a contender. Well all around player, in his prime, unselfish . I would take him on my Lakers.

5ass
02-13-2016, 11:48 PM
Watching the Slam Dunk Contest. Whey the heck are we talking about KAT and Harris when we should be having multiple threads about Zach LaVine and Aaron Gordon?! :P

Lol, but the reason the Magic are even thinking of trading Tobias is because of the emergence of Gordon...